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Episode 30: Dana Trebella (Spoke & Wheel Strategy)
180 Plays6 days ago
In this episode, hosts Alan and Syrenne are joined by Dana Trebella, the founder of Spoke & Wheel Strategy. Topics include best practices for how and when to message your game, common marketing pitfalls, and stories of working with the Draknek team.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Draknek and Friends official podcast, where we peel back the curtain on puzzle games and the people who make them. I'm Seren, the producer at Draknek and Friends, and I'm joined as always by Alan Hazelden, the head of Draknek at Draknek and Friends.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hey. Today, we're joined by Dana Trebella, who you may know from her work on various titles through her agency, Spoken Wheel. How are you doing today? I'm good. How are you guys?
00:00:47
Speaker
Doing good. Doing well.
Role at Spoken Wheel and Marketing Challenges
00:00:49
Speaker
So for people who don't know you, how do you tend to introduce yourself and kind of describe to people what Spoken Wheel does?
00:01:01
Speaker
Okay, cool. um So I'm Dana. I'm the founder of Spoken Wheel Strategy. i do marketing, PR, brand strategy. um Some biz dev stuff for indies have been doing it for the last 10 years.
00:01:15
Speaker
And I work on all different games, all different sizes, all different types of teams, all different platforms. And it's been fun. Yeah.
00:01:26
Speaker
We worked with you for a couple of years there. You were super great to work with. Thank you. You guys were too. Well, thank you. And while we were working with you, not to talk too much about people who aren't here, you were also helping other people that we knew Thinky Games.
00:01:45
Speaker
And so i would love to start and kind of dig in with when it comes to marketing and positioning games of this sort, games where a lot of the gameplay is happening in your head.
Game Hooks and Strategic Positioning
00:02:01
Speaker
What are some of the challenges that you've seen with that? Yeah, I think there's ah a lot of challenges in the thinky game genre or puzzle games or anything of that ilk.
00:02:13
Speaker
um I think a few things. um One, they can be really hard to show visually. So like in screenshots, especially, I think it's really hard to communicate. So I think when sort of figuring out um how to market thinking game, kind of keeping in mind, like how to visually show it both in trailer form and screenshot gift form important.
00:02:42
Speaker
hard, but also really important. And then I think too, like there's a really loyal niche audience in the thinking game space, but I also think there's potential to reach way more people, but a lot of like a lot of people are very afraid of that genre or just think like, oh, I don't like puzzles. I won't like this, or i'm bad at puzzles. I won't like this. So I think trying to figure out, and and that obviously is true for certain titles that are like very hard or very puzzly or whatever, but I think there's a lot of thinking games that fall in this sort of gray space that could reach people who
00:03:19
Speaker
love um cozy games or who love narrative games or who love like um games with certain visual styles or whatever. So I think figuring out like that audience and how to kind of segment and define them and what might resonate for people who are a little bit afraid of it is really important.
00:03:40
Speaker
Trying to think what else. And I think as always, when you're developing like any sort of game, sort of thinking about like the hook or the differentiator or how a to position in general is really important.
00:03:52
Speaker
Ideally before you finish the game,
Marketing Puzzle Games to a Wider Audience
00:03:56
Speaker
right? So you don't wanna just finish the game and to be like, now I have to figure out my hook. I think ideally doing that in tandem with marketing is always ideal.
00:04:05
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like something we've said, like talked about on this podcast before is like the idea that um for a lot of games, the most a lot of puzzle games or thinking games, the most effective marketing they've had is kind of tricking people into playing it or like framing it not as a puzzle game, but ah as something else for first.
00:04:28
Speaker
And then like, oh but like if you if get into it, you'll realize it's the a puzzle game, but we're not going to promote that side of it. Yeah, totally. But I think that's hard too, right? Because like, I think people want to lead with genre so often. So I think it's like, well, then what do you say about the game? Or how do you, what goes in the steam capsule? Or what festival do I put the game in um But I totally agree with you. I think the most powerful tool for any sort of thinking game is people getting their hands on it.
00:04:57
Speaker
Yeah, one conversation that we had when we were working with you that was funny because it just kept happening over and over again was, ah so what sets your game apart from all of the other puzzle games? Yeah.
00:05:11
Speaker
And then being like, ah I don't know, it's really good. And then you'd be like, we can't put that on the Steam page and have people believe it. Totally.
00:05:23
Speaker
Yeah, and a a lot of the time, what puts your game apart from other puzzle games is like, you you can find something to say, but the thing that you're saying is not exciting.
00:05:36
Speaker
Totally. I think we ran into that a lot, right? With like Sokoban Express, especially. Yeah. It's like we can, and and we we had this conversation internally and would end with you, which was like, we can talk about the thoughtfully designed mechanics. We could talk about ah intricate game design that is balancing what the player is keeping in their head at any given moment versus the actions they need to take on screen and that push-pull.
00:06:06
Speaker
And at the end of it, we're like, so chemistry?
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think that is what we ended up leaning on a lot. But i think i think you're totally right. I think it's so it's so hard, right? So I think like... If we could go back in time, um like an ideal way to do it, like you're not alone, first of all, in that I think there's tons of people in the thinking game space and honestly in games in general who struggle with that or make the game they want to make and then get to the end and are like,
00:06:43
Speaker
uh-oh, well, what do I say about it? But I think like if we could go back in time, ideally, we would have um baked something into the development of the game to like help further differentiate that, but often that's not that's not
Game Positioning and Market Trends
00:06:59
Speaker
possible.
00:07:00
Speaker
um So I think... Like in that case, a lot of what we did, right? Like trying to make trailers that was compelling or trying to figure out like how to message the trailer in a way that was different or trying to get the game in front of the right people.
00:07:16
Speaker
I think in some cases, that's kind of like the best that that you can do. Yeah. ah How soon, in your opinion, in a project is too soon to think about positioning? Because like a lot of teams will obviously begin prototyping, thinking about the mechanic or the experience they want the player to have.
00:07:38
Speaker
But like... Is there a moment that you're that is like, that's too soon. This is like exactly the right time to begin. i mean, obviously, the first answer is gonna be it's different for every game. and But in general.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, I get asked asked this question a lot and I never know how to answer it. But I think that even like before a game is ever publicly announced, first of all, ideally there would be some marketing bend to it, like a marketing person's involvement in some level, because that's always when you hold the most power, right? it's before you say anything.
00:08:13
Speaker
But i think I think as long as you have like ah pretty fully formed idea that you're pretty confident is the game you're gonna make, I think you can generally start within reason, right? If it's a game that's gonna take you seven years to make, then you might wanna wait.
00:08:31
Speaker
But assuming we're working with like more typical timelines of like, a couple years. I think at that point, like you could look at competitors. I think you could look at market landscape. I think you could look at um what's currently trending in the games industry. And I also think that part of positioning, which like no one can really do, but people try to do is like predict the future of what's going to work well or what's going to be popular.
00:09:02
Speaker
But I think that in most cases, people start too late. Like I rarely, it's happened to me once or twice where I've started with someone been like, this is too soon. You don't know what the game is.
00:09:13
Speaker
ah can't help you if we have no clear idea of what this even is. That's like so rare. i mean, most of the time people are like, I'm launching in a month. What can you do? so I would say like earlier than you think is generally my answer to that.
00:09:31
Speaker
Yeah, do you have um examples of the kinds of things you'd be suggesting that people be thinking about early on pre-release um or like types of questions that people should be asking themselves?
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Like pre-release or pre-even-enacted? Sorry, I meant pre-announce. Okay, okay, cool. um I would say, one, like you're trying to capitalize on a trend, right, like, I don't know, when Slay the Spire came out, everyone's making a card game.
00:10:03
Speaker
For the most part, at that point, you're too late. So i think I think just keeping that in mind, that's not really a question, but just keeping that in mind. But I think in general, you want to ask yourself, like,
00:10:16
Speaker
um what is really different about this game than other games in the genre, other games that have come out. um And I think also things like, um it's really nostalgic or i don't know, like it's 3D, like those types of things are not, that's not going to cut it. You've got to have like a really strong answer there.
00:10:40
Speaker
But I think looking at like market analysis, so like looking as best if you can at like, other games in a similar genre or in a similar place as you, both successes and failures, I think you can honestly learn just as much from games that tried and failed or fell short and kind of try your best to make general opinions and assessments about like, what did they do and why did this happen?
00:11:08
Speaker
And when you're looking at other games, looking at like, what did um like What did media say about them, if anything? What did streamers like kind of latch on to?
00:11:20
Speaker
What did the Steam store reviews say? like All of that kind of stuff I think is relevant. And then I think also um looking at like a SWOT analysis, right? So that's where you talk about like your strengths, your weaknesses, your opportunities, and your threats.
00:11:35
Speaker
And I think that's important in terms of getting like a holistic picture of like, not only the game, but what can you do with your team, with the resources that you have?
Post-Announcement Marketing Strategies
00:11:45
Speaker
um So like, what are the strengths of the game, but also what are the strengths of the team and how can you kind of leverage that?
00:11:52
Speaker
Or what's like a threat that could happen maybe in your control or out of your control? um Something like, I don't know, a new platform launch, a ah that you might not be part of, or I don't know, things like that.
00:12:08
Speaker
And how can you kind of mitigate that? Um, I think both of those are really important. And then, um typically also just thinking through like some kind of general timeline before you announce, um, I think is helpful in terms of figuring out like, when should you announce, what should you show,
00:12:29
Speaker
um How are you going to do it? Are you going to try and be in a showcase? Are you going to try to work with a platform? Are you going to try and do it alone? Like, do you have a strong enough community to do that? um All of those sorts of things. So kind of just looking at like the whole picture, i think before you announce is really ideal.
00:12:47
Speaker
Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. ah And how do you feel about when a developer like Drackneck and Friends comes to you and says, so we announced our game a year and a half ago.
00:13:03
Speaker
I mean, that's just to make you feel better. That happens all the time. You are not alone. Yeah. It happens all the time. Yeah. No, we... ah Look, we you know us. we We do a lot, we say a lot, we make a lot, we publish a lot, and we are a lot to work with sometimes. but i think I was going to say two. i think two, one thing to note though is like you guys are launching, because you're launching a lot of different titles, right? You don't have like all of your resources pulled into one game.
00:13:39
Speaker
But I think for a lot of teams when like this is their game, And they've got like, you know, $2 million dollars of funding from XYZ. Like there's there's just like really high pressure there. And not to say that you guys don't have pressure, but I think that like also helps mitigate some of the risk. The fact that you do put out a lot. 100%.
00:13:59
Speaker
hundred percent Yeah. What do you think if somebody has announced a game a year and a half ago, what do you think is the biggest, most impactful thing they can do if they've been struggling to to market their game or get attention for their game? ah yeah Other than ship it and make a new one.
00:14:19
Speaker
Totally. I think there's a few things. Yeah. One, i think you can play around the Steam tags and kind of see like what's working and what's not working there. And that could just be something like pretty easy to do.
00:14:35
Speaker
um I think too, I did talk at GDC this past year about like showcases and um Mari actually gave an interview for that. So thanks. um But one of the things that actually we heard like consistently was that a lot of these organizers like to feature underrepresented games or games that are announced, but people don't really know about them yet.
00:14:58
Speaker
So I think you still have a pretty good chance at getting into a showcase if you've already announced and you're not getting a lot of traction. um But I also think that it's valid to like look at why you're not getting a lot of traction. So like there's only like so much you can actually know because...
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah, you can't like hear from the general collective, but I think I think looking at like, OK, are we not engaging enough with our community? um Are our like screenshots and trailers actually like communicating to people like what this game is and why it's cool?
00:15:38
Speaker
um Is our Steam page engaging and clear? And I think also like doing some play testing to sort of figure out to like, and is it actually the game? And if so, are there things that you can change?
00:15:52
Speaker
um But I think really like at that point, there's also some throwing spaghetti at the wall and just kind of seeing like, okay, well, what we're doing isn't working. It's not resonating. Like, what can we change? What can we tweak? Can we highlight something different about our game?
00:16:08
Speaker
Are we focused on the wrong thing? Like, i think um I think asking some of those questions is really important.
Pitfalls and Effective Marketing Tools
00:16:14
Speaker
And then I think also just figuring out like what opportunities can you sort of leverage? um You know, that could be a good place to start a community if you don't have one um or to re-engage with people who previously supported your other games or things like that too.
00:16:32
Speaker
Yeah, no, I mean, this is this is all great stuff and that makes perfect sense to me. Do you have any other advice of like, how do I put this, common pitfalls? um Yes.
00:16:49
Speaker
Trying to remember. i have a, I think I even have a list. Hold on. Yeah. Yes, like just common marketing pitfalls in general, you mean?
00:17:01
Speaker
Marketing, positioning, or like waiting too long to think about how to message something, to put a store page up, things like that. OK. um Yes, off the top of my head, i think some common pitfalls that maybe some other people won't agree with, actually.
00:17:19
Speaker
But I always say like a lot of times, especially new developers, um say like try to compare their games to other games in their marketing. So they'll say it's as if like my game is if X and Y had a baby or it's like the newest version of this game or whatever. And I think that is a big mistake and like a big no, no.
00:17:40
Speaker
for a myriad of reasons, but a couple being that I think, one, your're setting like you're setting expectations potentially very high for players, especially players who loved those other games that you're referencing.
00:17:55
Speaker
um Or if players don't know those other games, then you've just kind of lost them completely. Or if they don't like those games, then also you've probably lost them. So I think that like you should be able to speak about your game as if it's its own entity. um And I think people get stuck there often.
00:18:15
Speaker
um i think people do Steam Next Fest way too early. um i and I think a lot of that has to do with predicting timelines wrong. Um, so i would always say like, if you're making a timeline ad least like, I don't know, minimally three months, but often like six months to nine months to the end of it and work off of that.
00:18:40
Speaker
there's always delays. I mean, I always tell people, I think I've had, um three, somewhere between three and five games launch on time since 2019.
00:18:51
Speaker
So it's like very rare that people launch on time. um So I think like taking into account what is a realistic timeline is really important. And people believe that feel way too confident in themselves in that way.
00:19:05
Speaker
um trying to think what else. I think showing too much in the first trailer that you do. And again, I think that comes down to timelines in a lot of cases.
00:19:17
Speaker
But let's say you've got a year of a public facing marketing calendar. If you show basically like everything that your game has to offer in the very first announcement,
00:19:29
Speaker
then you've got to figure out like how to keep people engaged and what you can show for the next year. And that sucks. So I always like recommend that people like figure out how many trailers they want to make based on the type of game, the budget that they have, the you know if they're going to do it internally or externally or all those kinds of things and break down like specifically what are we going to show in each of these so that we can make sure that we've got enough like different unique things that makes each one exciting and also that we can literally hold it for a year.
00:20:05
Speaker
That's another one that I see often. the other thing too is i also really try to push people to have a mailing list. So like I often encourage people to um like put ah collect emails in a demo or something like that because people who sign up for your mailing lists are most likely to convert and just less of a mistake, but more of like a missed opportunity. i feel like people rarely do that and people rarely utilize mailing lists.
00:20:39
Speaker
um And I think that they're great and really important. I think also like if you're interested in um working with a platform that again, you always hold the most power before you launch. So, or before you announce, so like trying to do that late only works if you've had like a previous really successful game.
00:21:06
Speaker
or your your announcements gotten a ton of momentum, right? Then we can look at like actual numbers and interest. And so I think that makes it a bit trickier. The other thing too that I find sometimes is when I ask people like who their competitors are,
00:21:20
Speaker
is I get the answer, like, I don't have any, like my game's so unique. I just don't have any. And that's like not an answer. You always have competitors. Um, and if you can't answer that, or you think the answer is I don't have any, then you need to revisit and look at that again.
00:21:36
Speaker
And then I also think like really refining your, um hook really important. I think your point being like, the game is really good. um That's just not going to work. I think you can also like test that out on people. Not not that specific line, but like a line that you would come up with and kind of um see. I think people don't actually get a lot of feedback from other people um as much as they should. And along those lines too, I think playtesting. I think people wait.
00:22:08
Speaker
way too long to start playtesting. And then in a lot of cases, they're not able to actually enact feedback. um And that impacts marketing too.
00:22:19
Speaker
I'm sure there's more, but those are just the ones that come to me off top my head. And speaking of mailing lists, if somehow you are listening to this podcast and you aren't subscribed to the Dracneck Friends mailing list, you can go to dracneck.org or you can go to thinkythirdthursday.com.
00:22:37
Speaker
Either of those, ah you can sign up to our mailing list. We will send you a ah monthly roundup of great puzzle game recommendations and we'll tell you whenever we release a great game for you to play.
Building and Maintaining Interest Over Time
00:22:49
Speaker
um Getting on the more practical side of what you just said, i feel like there's a lot of puzzle games where the developers wouldn't really know how to do more than one trailer.
00:23:05
Speaker
Do you have any like tips for... Is it a sign that if you can't figure out how you'd make two different feeling trailers, then your game is maybe... going to be inherently problematic for for marketing? Or are that ah is there some kind of switch you can flip in your brain to to figure out how to do multiple trailers for something?
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good question. i think, um one, if you're making a puzzle game, then ideally you would go and look at trailers for lots of other puzzle games to hopefully give you some ideas of like what did other people do and what worked?
00:23:44
Speaker
But I mean, you really, yeah. I mean, you should be able to make more than one trailer for any game, even if it's only two, right? Even if it's just an announcement and a launch, um,
00:23:56
Speaker
there should be enough meat there or enough things where it's like, okay, this one we're really focused on, i don't know, this really cool mechanic that we have in our game. And this one we're really focused on just like showing all the juice and everything um um like an all encompassing level. I don't know, like there should be enough there that you can get at least two out of it. Like if you can't, if you really can't, then I think that's tricky.
00:24:22
Speaker
um i mean, I also think like if you work externally with a trailer um person, they're going to help you kind of figure out like, okay, you need two trailers. I think for the first one, we should do this and this we should do why. But if you're doing it all internally, i think the best way to kind of figure that out is to watch other trailers or, um you know, watch the cerebral puzzle showcase that y'all do and kind of see what other people are doing generally. But yeah, I think i think i think pretty much any game you can get more than one trailer out of unless it's really shallow. And then in that case, you're just making a really small game.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah, and even then sometimes making a really small game, like with a Electrifying Incident, we were thinking about multiple trailers. like what What does that even look like?
00:25:12
Speaker
Do you have any career highlights, games you really, really enjoyed working on?
00:25:19
Speaker
I really enjoyed working, like Dicey Dungeons was a really fun game to work on um and a game that I got to work on for a long time, which was cool, I think.
00:25:30
Speaker
I think the game launched in 2019 and I think I started working with them in 2017 and then worked on all of the um platform ports after that. But that was a really fun game to work on. Just, I mean, Terry's brilliant and the art was super cool. The music was great.
00:25:52
Speaker
People loved debt um So it's always fun to work on a game that lots of people um love. um Working with you guys was really fun.
00:26:03
Speaker
um i really enjoyed getting to work on um like Lock Digital with y'all and Sokoban Express. um And I mean, honestly, my my favorite thing is just like, yes, I love working on really cool games, right? Like, that's why we're here. But I also love just getting to work with teams that are, like, interesting and diverse um and perhaps, like, live in areas of the world that I've never gotten to go to.
00:26:30
Speaker
And I just feel like it's helped me kind of, like, grow a lot as a human. um So in general, like, that's probably just my favorite thing about my job. um And I like working on, like, lots of different games with players um different challenges, different platforms, different timelines, all that kind of stuff. um Trying to think what else has been fun. Holdown was really fun to work on. Isles of Sea and Sky was actually really fun to work on. Those guys are great. And that's an example of a puzzle game, I think, particularly that kind of reaches over the line and like holds people's hands um to make them
00:27:12
Speaker
like less less afraid or realize that they're not actually playing a puzzle game.
Platform Releases and Support
00:27:18
Speaker
I'm working currently with like the the team making, the Trinket Studios team making Battlesuit Aces, and that's been a lot of fun.
00:27:26
Speaker
So I don't know, really a lot of different things that have been fun and interesting kind of throughout the last decade, honestly. Yeah, that's, I mean, it's a great resume on top of everything else.
00:27:38
Speaker
Something you touched on there that I'd love to dig in a little bit more because like when we worked with you, the first campaign that we had with you that wrapped up was the Patrick's Parabox console port.
00:27:52
Speaker
Oh, right, right, yeah. So between that and you mentioned like the follow-up support on a game like Dicey Dungeons with additional platform releases, what are your thoughts slash differences slash like any advice or warnings based on post-release messaging and marketing for stuff like that.
00:28:15
Speaker
Specifically because like once a game has already reached like the public for its for for its one point on launch, a lot of opinions and like somewhat consensus will have formed around the title.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah, totally. I mean, i think I think you're right, right? Like if the game bombs at first, I mean, there are some stories that you hear about, about like the game was getting no attention and then all of a sudden it blew up.
00:28:42
Speaker
um But that's not typical, right? So if your game bombed on Steam, then... often it's not going to do great on other platforms, but there are exceptions to that rule, particularly you're making a game with like a very Nintendo art style or you've gotten platform support or mobile is like a totally different um beast altogether.
00:29:03
Speaker
But I think, I think also some of it depends on like, what's the timing between your initial announcement and your neck or your initial launch and your next um like release.
00:29:15
Speaker
So if it's pretty immediately following, then I think that that marketing is going to be like much more streamlined, probably smaller.
00:29:26
Speaker
um But like, for example, I think when we were doing Patrick's Parabox, I'm trying to remember when did the original come out or the first launch happened? The first launch and the console launch were about a year apart.
00:29:37
Speaker
Okay. Okay. So that's like long enough apart that I think at that point, your job is to kind of remind people that the game exists. And potentially you're reaching a totally new audience at that point too.
00:29:49
Speaker
So i think um I think, I mean, an ideal world, trying to get platform support is always going to be like the most helpful thing that you can do, right? So like getting in a direct or um having like Sony um put you in one of their events or whatever, that's always the most helpful, but obviously that's not just like everyone can just do that. um But I think sometimes tweaking messaging is good. i think in an ideal world too, by the time you get to, and I think we had this conversation a bunch of times too, about like, well, did you add anything different for the console release? Is there something new?
00:30:31
Speaker
um And I think like, if I could you know imagine my perfect like scenario, then they'd be like, yeah, we added an entire new, I don't know, game mode or there's a new soundtrack or something that's like totally using platform-specific features. Right, exactly. Or we're using this specific thing that works great on this specific platform.
00:30:54
Speaker
That's always the ideal, but that always that doesn't always happen. I think the beauty of having something like that is that then that's sort of your marketing message and it makes your life way easier.
00:31:06
Speaker
um i think so. I do think when you're launching on other platforms, that's something to keep in mind is like, is there something that you can say that's different or that will appeal to a new audience or an audience that loves this platform or something of that sort?
00:31:23
Speaker
um if the answer no, then I think it gets a little trickier, particularly if you don't have any platform support at all. um And in that case, I think it's finding either like new ways to reach people. It's reminding people that the game exists. It's repackaging it up in a, again, we're going to talk about creating different trailers that could be compelling.
00:31:46
Speaker
um If you have like great reviews from the first game, that can be a nice kind of thing to throw out there or cool like streams or something that you can point to to be like people loved this.
00:32:00
Speaker
um That's always really helpful too. Yeah. Patrick's Parabox. I forget if we were working with you when this happened. um Like that also had the very weird sequence of events where the game comes out on PC in...
00:32:17
Speaker
Like one year. About a full year later, it comes out on Nintendo Switch and PlayStation 5. And then maybe three months after that, after release with no new news, it's in a Japanese Indie Direct.
00:32:33
Speaker
I think that did happen when we were working together. and And like yeah, I think it did. Because all three of us and Patrick were just kind of looking but at each other being like, I mean, we should take the opportunity, but why?
00:32:49
Speaker
yeah totally. Things like that happen. It's really freaking weird. don't even remember. I'm not going to say no, obviously. like The exposure it's very helpful there. But... um And the the answer is probably one specific person at Nintendo Japan played the game and really loved it and fought for it.
00:33:08
Speaker
Yes, that that appears to have been the vibe of, I don't know, someone on the events and marketing team at Nintendo's Japanese headquarters just really likes Patrick's Parabox and Thinkie Games.
00:33:23
Speaker
And I'm not going to say no. yeah For sure. If you can find like an internal champion of your game, that's...
Publisher Contracts and Marketing Expectations
00:33:30
Speaker
Yeah, especially if that person works at you know the Japanese headquarters and also happens to speak English.
00:33:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's funny. I forgot that that happened. See, this is I forget all these things. Yeah, what a what a weird circumstance, but a happy series of events for that game.
00:33:51
Speaker
Yeah, totally. And I think, too, I think not to go like... doom and gloom, but I think we're going to see less games porting to consoles um with kind of what's going on financially. That's just my prediction. Yeah.
00:34:10
Speaker
Because I think consoles are giving less support, right? so The money is drying up because money where where is their money coming from at this point? So I think we're going to see that happening less, especially as like sim ships on initial launches. Yeah.
00:34:27
Speaker
like the the current read on the console market is only Nintendo seems to be doing okay and Nintendo doesn't need money to incentivize people to want to launch on Switch 2. Yeah, i I just think it's tricky. i I think it's gonna be really interesting to just kind of watch and see what happens.
00:34:44
Speaker
Yeah. ah Here is, while I know a lot of, um this episode in particular is probably going to be of interest to a lot of smaller indie devs in the space.
00:34:56
Speaker
um I would give this blanket advice that probably seems obvious to the three of us, but it is like really important, which is do not bank your mark, your budget on platform support until a contract is signed.
00:35:14
Speaker
Yeah. I would say that's true for everything. Yes. But like, incredibly, incredibly important. Like, do not spend three years of your life assuming that Nintendo is going to see your game and love it and put you on the front page of the eShop.
00:35:32
Speaker
Right. that That happens to... you know, maybe 2% of games if we're being very generous with how many games come out on the eShop. I think that is very generous. Like 1% to 2% of games get even for 24 hours featured presence on a console.
00:35:51
Speaker
Totally. I think the other thing, this is a bit of an aside and also like y'all are a publisher so grains of salt obviously, but like I think when you're signing a publisher deal, be very, very careful.
00:36:02
Speaker
um I have definitely had people come to me after working with publishers and being unhappy. And the most common reason for that is because they signed. Well, there's a myriad of reasons. But one reason is they signed a contract and it said that the publisher would provide marketing support to and they did not get any details or information about like what that actually entailed.
00:36:24
Speaker
And I think if you're banking on a publisher to be your main driver of marketing, it's really important to understand like specifically what does that mean? Are they putting out like- Oh, yes.
00:36:36
Speaker
Press release one time and they're listing you in a list of all the games that they're publishing. Are they like, i don't, I mean, people aren't doing as many in-person conventions, but like, are they gonna take your game to an in-person convention?
00:36:50
Speaker
Are they gonna actually make your trailers? And if so, do you actually have any editorial say in what those end up being? All of that's really important to consider, I think too. Yeah, no, I, for publisher contract negotiations, and ah again, i've I've been on the publisher side at this point about as often as I've been on the developer side, but the thing that I tell developers is You should identify the one to two things that are most important to you, especially if funding is not one of them. and Totally. Make sure that it is explicitly detailed. Make sure that the obligation is detailed such that if if a publisher... like What happens if ah the publisher gets acquired and another company gets your contract?
00:37:40
Speaker
are you still going Are you still going to get... what you need because the contract should guarantee that you are going to receive the things that are most important to you.
00:37:53
Speaker
That is what the contract is there for. It is there to help both parties make sure that whatever you're agreeing to in a Google Meet call before the contract actually happens.
00:38:05
Speaker
For sure. For sure. And I think too, like, you know, publishers can be great. I mean, they're really helpful for a myriad of reasons and a a bunch of ways and often have like expertise that you as the developer don't have.
00:38:21
Speaker
And I think that um like a lot of people, like the the narrative for many years was like, well, I need a publisher.
00:38:31
Speaker
and and I would ask people, okay, why? And they'd be like, I don't know, I just do. It's like, okay, but why? like I think knowing very specifically, like what do you what do you need out of it? And like for example, if you just need localization,
00:38:45
Speaker
then maybe you don't need to do a full publisher deal. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. A lot of the time when I've talked to developers, ah it's something to the effect of small loan.
00:39:00
Speaker
Right. Agreed. And it's like, how much is the loan? and they're like, I don't know. I would probably need 10 grand. I'm like, well... could actually like I don't actually encourage this especially if you're in the United States right now in 2025 I'm not actually encouraging this but like in the past it's been like well you could just go to the bank Yeah, although funny enough, I've gotten a couple emails recently of people being like, so I'm wondering, should I take out a loan? Or like i had someone be like, should i take out a second mortgage on my house to work with you? And I was like, no, no, do not do that. Like, i i'm I'm too anxious for that. Like, never do that.
00:39:38
Speaker
Don't do that. Yes. Spend within your means. Yeah, don't ever do that. It's not worth it. It's so stressful. And also, even if you've got ten hundreds of thousands of wish lists, don't do that.
00:39:51
Speaker
Yes. no No, nothing is a guarantee. All of the signs of like, oh, no, but I've definitely got a hit on my hands. You might not. don't yeah don't Don't pre-commit to anything.
00:40:04
Speaker
Yes. Totally. I'm curious, actually, from your perspective, because I've seen with a lot of my folks that like wish list conversions are down. Is that what you're seeing too? Yeah.
00:40:15
Speaker
Um, so talking to a bunch of other developers and then also looking at our own, wishlist conversions in for games in general are down and some subgenres are more resilient than others. Yeah.
00:40:31
Speaker
I would say that, um, Dracneck wishlist conversions are more resilient than many others. That makes sense, because you you all are very like niche and specific.
00:40:43
Speaker
if If someone is wishlisting a Dracnet game, there is a much there is a much higher intent to buy, especially because we put out enough games that like people continue to remember us.
00:40:55
Speaker
Totally. Versus here's a new game, or like here's a game from a studio that hasn't put something out in five, six years. For sure. Or it's your first game. I mean, especially if it's yeah your first game, i think wishlist, mean, wishlist are really important for a bunch of reasons, but like, I think it's really hard to make any sort of.
00:41:16
Speaker
and broad sweeping assumptions at this point about what conversion should be. And of course it's the people who don't have launch experience who are the most going to be in the weeds about like trying to do like division on wish lists to write like basically find like try and divine how financially solvent they're going to be. right But like the problem is that I use the word divine for a reason.
00:41:42
Speaker
it's ah It's divination. You're not going to get an accurate result. Right, right. I mean, I think, right, you can make, like, you want to do some basic spreadsheet math and be like, okay, worst case scenario, it's this, best case scenario, it's this. Like, I think that's all really important, but like, I wouldn't be looking at, right, I have 100,000 wish lists, I'm the next Bellatro or whatever. Yeah, or like, I'm guaranteed 10,000 copies in my launch week.
Advanced Marketing Tactics
00:42:08
Speaker
Right. Because it's like, no. Right. No, that's a good that's a good scenario. it's ten of like that's That's a really good scenario. you need to like You need to run the numbers on 1%, 2%, 3%.
00:42:19
Speaker
two percent three percent like You need to run these numbers and find your range of acceptability. For sure. And then you can also do... You could tailor a lot of your pre-launch run-up to like use on-platform messaging, such as like news posts that are targeting people who have already wishlisted you to attempt to remind people that they have you on their wishlist so that it's not just, I see a game, I wishlist it, a year and a half later I get an email.
00:42:54
Speaker
Totally. I mean, if you want to be sophisticated, most people don't do this, but if you want to be sophisticated with something like a mailing list, for example, I think you could, it would probably be advantageous to segment, right? So like, these are people who have never bought a game from us before. this is their first time ever even signing up for a mailing list. These are people who bought our other games and like tailor messaging accordingly. That requires obviously a lot more like um just manpower and energy and all of those types of things. But I think that would be great if if that could happen.
00:43:30
Speaker
If everyone had 10 people working full time to market their game, then, you know, of course, everything would be a lot easier. um Yeah. I mean, my job would be, I don't know, my job would either be way easier or way harder. I'm not sure.
00:43:46
Speaker
you You would have designated points of contact who are likely going to actually take steps on the things that they discussed between the last call and now. Right, right. Which is, you know, and improvement that would probably be an improvement for at least what how we worked with you. I i can't speak to anyone else.
00:44:05
Speaker
Well, i I think one thing that I do do a lot in my job that I definitely didn't anticipate, but I feel like I'm sort of somewhere between like an accountability coach and like sometimes a therapist.
00:44:20
Speaker
um Oh, being a producer. Yeah. I mean, I actually, this is not a funny, this is kind of a funny story, but not really. I had a client actually, this was years ago, like break break up with their partner and then call me to like, talk to me about it. I was like, Oh, you want to do this?
00:44:35
Speaker
Um, sure. Um, but I think like, cause I've had, i really don't like to do this with people. So whatever, don't try not to do this, but I've had people be like, we're going to take a break for, you know, the game's taking way longer. We don't have the budget. Can we please take a break for like six months and then come back and work with you? I promise we're going to do all of these things in these six months. And I'm like, okay, you sure? And they're like, yep, a hundred percent.
00:45:03
Speaker
And then we re-sink up after six months and I'm like, okay, so I didn't see um Steam updates. I didn't see any of these things. And it's like they did none of them.
00:45:13
Speaker
Of course. Unfortunately. Because i mean be because they, ah I don't know, the the dog got off the leash for six months and didn't want to return to the leashed area.
00:45:24
Speaker
Right. So like, I definitely feel like part of my job is literally just making sure like, okay, well, we have this event coming up. You said you were going to put new screenshots up. Did you capture the new screenshots?
00:45:35
Speaker
It's like, that's literally part it. Of course Yeah. course not. um Or, um gosh, I mean, we could have a whole, we could ah I just realized that we's we've been talking for over 50 minutes and have not once mentioned the Soka Bond Express art change our style change.
00:45:55
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah. speaking Speaking of things that are done in the ah name of marketing and positioning. um but I'm curious, do you guys feel like that was worth it?
00:46:10
Speaker
It was not not worth it. Okay. It didn't take that long to make the change. And I think it made the game marginally more exciting to look at by a factor that would have paid off the these small development time that was spent on it.
00:46:30
Speaker
yes Yeah. Yeah. We're, you know, we're we're talking about a disproportionate amount of discussion and producer stress versus like the actual implementation effort.
00:46:41
Speaker
You were stressed, Sarin? What? Yeah, of course I was stressed. I know. I seem to remember actually you being like, no, we're not changing the art style. And Al and like- seem to remember correctly.
00:46:54
Speaker
Right. And Al and I were like, no, I think we should really change it And you were like, we cannot change it. And then at the end of the meeting, it was like, nope, we're changing it. weird. This is how it always goes.
00:47:06
Speaker
Yeah. If it makes you feel better, people often don't listen to me either. Definitely the ideal situation would have been to have had that conversation right at the start of development.
00:47:16
Speaker
Yes. For sure. Not seven months before ship or so. like Yeah. I'll back you on that one. Yeah, for sure. i i That was the part that actually like was distressful.
00:47:30
Speaker
And... was it and A lot of the, ah you know, so sometimes I'll get on a podcast and i'll I'll play like I'm a little more aggrieved than I actually am. See also the...
00:47:44
Speaker
electrifying incident postmortem which is just an hour of me yelling at alan um it's a very it's a very funny episode um but the act like the actuality is i'm usually okay with pivots i just become increasingly less open to pivots as the development progresses Yeah, like that totally makes sense. The later you get, the like so harsher I'm going to react because it's like, we have a plan.
Listening to Marketing Experts
00:48:15
Speaker
Everyone agreed to the plan. Why are we suddenly saying, screw the plan. We're going to change everything. We're going to change this. we're going to change that. And so sometimes...
00:48:28
Speaker
you know, I try and put my foot down. And usually when I put my foot down, those are the times that don't actually happen. Or I don't get my way. Usually it's when I throw something out casually that like it'll actually be received better.
00:48:42
Speaker
That's so funny. that's That's just a weird environment, but that's neither here nor there. Yeah. i yeah i think I think you just, the the the times when we disagree stick with you more than the times, like there definitely are times where you'll just go firmly like, no, we're not doing this. I'm like, no, you're right.
00:49:02
Speaker
But like, that that's less memorable than the times when... That has happened a few times, but usually it's because you're cackling as you propose it because you expect me to shoot it down.
00:49:14
Speaker
this is This is you in contract negotiation asking for too much so that I can feel like I get a win. That's what those are. ah Wasn't there at the end sort of of our working together, weren't you like, okay, so we're going launch Sokoban Express on new platforms, we're going announce Lock Digital, we're going to do Cerebral, and we were like, huh?
00:49:35
Speaker
ah we were like hu That is, ah I mean, that's ah that's our cadence. Yeah. Here is, I mean, Dana, here's the last six months. We launched ah Lock Digital on PC in December.
00:49:52
Speaker
At the same time, we announced it for mobile. We have release on mobile in January. ah We um ah and we we launched in an event. We launched in ah day of the Devs.
00:50:05
Speaker
And ah we were on mobile in January. ah Then a couple weeks later, we announced electrifying incidents, had a demo for a electrifying incident, ran the entire marketing campaign, launched a electrifying incident.
00:50:20
Speaker
ah Then i'll so I'll speak future tense because I have the time of recording, but everyone will know by this point. Um, Then a week from today, we're announcing Spooky Express.
00:50:33
Speaker
Then a couple of weeks later, we're going to have a demo for Spooky Express. And then a couple weeks later, we're going to ah run Cerebral Puzzle Showcase. Well, if you could see me, you would see my lack of surprise face.
00:50:46
Speaker
Yes. No, this is the last six months. Also, we hired someone during this six month period.
00:50:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, sure isn't it? I mean, it's cool, but it's a lot. This is what we do. We keep busy. Isn't that right, Alan? The treadmill never turns off.
00:51:06
Speaker
i I was going to say, we're also actually, actually for real this time shipping the last parts of the Bonfire Peaks DLC, which is something you heard us talk about when we were working with you.
00:51:17
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Actually, actually for real as in certified on consoles already. Oh, okay, nice. It will probably be out at the time of this recording goes live.
00:51:27
Speaker
Yeah, God, I hope so. That'll be embarrassing if not. I hope so for you too. Yeah, that's ah goodness. we are We are doing so much.
00:51:38
Speaker
um As we wrap up, Dana, do you have any last thoughts or questions for us? One thought, I guess it's been like percolating in my mind, but it's just happens often. um If you're going to hire a marketing person, you should sometimes listen to them.
00:51:58
Speaker
um
00:52:01
Speaker
Sometimes. ahead no Good to know. How do you know when you should? I mean, listen, like I, I am also a control freak. So like, I totally understand hiring someone for something and then being like, yeah, I'm not going to do that.
00:52:17
Speaker
Um, but I also think like, if you're not. Open to listening at all, then just don't hire someone. Like I've had, I had, I've had instances of people where it's like,
00:52:31
Speaker
I'm just there and I'm giving them what I would do and they don't listen at all. And like, yeah and and it's weird. It's just it's stressful. And i've I've had that as a producer too. And again, I want to be here, not with Dreknek, even though, again, I publicize the parts where I'm not listened to.
00:52:48
Speaker
Broadly, I've listened to a Dreknek, but I've had that with with other clients. And ah yeah, at at best I could say, well, I'm collecting a paycheck to speak into a void. Right. Like, obviously don't, it's a collaborative effort, right? Like I don't expect anyone to listen to me all the time, nor do I think you should like, it's your game. It's your baby. You're you have more stake in it.
00:53:10
Speaker
Um, obviously than I do, but like, I just, I would say like only hire a marketing person if you're actually like interested in utilizing them, which is a weird thing to say, but like,
00:53:25
Speaker
Just something on the on the peripheral
Adapting to Industry Changes
00:53:28
Speaker
of my brain. um i guess a question for you guys would be like, now I'm curious, like since we work together, is there anything that you all like approach differently or things that you've changed as a result?
00:53:44
Speaker
It's okay if you say no. I think we are pushing the mailing list a lot more than where we are working together. we're We're pushing the mailing list a lot more. And also, i mean, there's there's definitely a significant part, and you'll be proud of this, of conversations early on in development where I will literally say something to the effect of what would Dana think about that?
00:54:13
Speaker
Oh, I love that. And be like, how are how are we positioning this game like very early? like That has actually stuck with us internally. Oh, I love that. That makes me so happy. um Yeah, I always tell people like, pretend that you're like a toddler, right? And just keep asking why when you're when you're talking about it.
00:54:36
Speaker
um So I love that. I love that you hear my annoying voice in your head. Your voice is not annoying, but sometimes you you are being constructively annoying using your voice.
00:54:50
Speaker
Um, have you, have you all made any changes to how you do anything as sort of a result of like where the games industry is currently?
00:55:06
Speaker
Smaller games. Okay. Faster development cycles. That's partially Alan burnout. And that's partially just like looking at the world. Yeah, that totally makes sense. i mean, whenever I talk to someone and they tell me like,
00:55:19
Speaker
yeah, I've been working on this game for five years, six years. I'm always like, oh no. sha Like it's, that's bad. um i mean, also like, I think at that point you're probably either way over scoped or like, you're just never going to be happy with it. Like there's always things that you can do better.
00:55:39
Speaker
Um, Yeah, I think that's interesting too. like I think smaller games is definitely something people should consider. Were you going to say anything, Alan?
00:55:53
Speaker
No, and that would have been pretty much my answer. like i mean, it's generally yeah developing games in such a way that... we assume that they will not be extremely successful.
00:56:07
Speaker
Um, like we, we've had a hit with monster expedition. We are making games going forwards, assuming that we will never have a game as successful as that again. Yep.
00:56:18
Speaker
Yeah. My other question too, is like, so y'all run cerebral, um, but also obviously you're doing your own games. Like, I feel like there's really a challenge these days, like before all of these online festivals existed, it was in some ways ease easier is the wrong word, but like, I don't, I don't know another word to use. Like it was easier for people to sort of like announce things on their own.
Managing Game Announcements and Final Remarks
00:56:45
Speaker
um so like, how do you guys balance, like you were saying lock digital was in, um, day of the devs, but like that's not yeah common or or that's difficult, right? Like you can't just rely on that.
00:56:57
Speaker
So like, how do you guys balance when you're doing an announcement for a game, like trying to be part of an event and then if that doesn't work, like doing it on your own? Yeah, I mean, we so we apply to everything, yeah as is people to do yeah as as is kind of common wisdom.
00:57:17
Speaker
we A lot of the time, we are not selected, and we totally get that, especially as people that run a festival. Of course, you're going to not every game can be in everything.
00:57:29
Speaker
But when we have a game that is coming up, Even if we don't know what the announcement plan is, we'll usually mention it and frame something as like and announcement opportunity or like whatever and see if that gets anyone interested. And sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.
00:57:46
Speaker
Day the Devs for luck Digital is Funny, we didn't actually, um when we pitched, we didn't pitch them on launching into it. The timing just lined up. So we asked them afterwards, hey, you you good if we have a out now call to action at the end of it? They're like, yeah, works great for us.
00:58:03
Speaker
Oh, that's awesome. um But like they were willing to have us in whether or not we were launching. And that was very, again, deeply fortunate. Not taking that for granted. Yeah, for sure.
00:58:14
Speaker
And then, yeah um Also, one of these days we'll have an episode coming out about Day of the Devs. So you can stay tuned for that, I think. Oh, cool. But I don't know, Alan. like I feel like we...
00:58:30
Speaker
keep a lot of options open until such a time where we're coming up on the calendar where we actually want the game to be announced by and then we start kind of working back from there yeah i think actually like there's interesting thing we did like gosh was it three or four years ago now which is an example of doing this badly where we had so much stuff built out that we hadn't announced so like Well, i I guess we need to like do Dragneck Direct where we announce all of this at once. Oh, God. and that That, to be clear, was a bad plan.
00:59:05
Speaker
um We should have been announcing things as we went. that That was a plan that stemmed from we have we are working on so many things. Oh, my gosh. And we have not made the time to tell people about any of them.
00:59:20
Speaker
That's actually, i feel like one of you made also a good point in there. Like what a marketing tip that i often tell people to do and like what i typically do for my folks when we're making like a marketing timeline is like,
00:59:31
Speaker
I make a timeline a assuming that you get into yeah whatever, cerebral, wholesome, whatever. And then I make a timeline B that's like, and what if we don't? um So that at least you're not like left floundering. i feel like a lot of people put all their eggs in like the showcase basket, but they're really competitive.
00:59:51
Speaker
They are. like For us, the the way that I think about it is, I'm like, what is the date that we are for sure going to be announced by? Like by this point, people will know about the game and then work backwards like, all right, I'll plan to every showcase before then with announcement.
01:00:08
Speaker
And if we are getting close, if we're getting like within, i don't know, eight weeks of that point, we and we haven't heard back from anyone or like everyone's rejected us.
01:00:19
Speaker
Obviously, we're gonna we're going to make our own announcement on our own terms, and we're going figure that out. But like the hope the hope is that you can leverage someone else's platform for the announce, and then you also have to completely and totally plan on not doing so.
01:00:36
Speaker
Totally. Yeah. um Well, thank you so much for joining. I know you have to... wrap and this has been going on for a while. Again, this is just like when we were working with you. I feel like I could talk to you for hours at a time because there's so much insight.
01:00:51
Speaker
Aw, thanks friends. Thanks for having me. Of course. Where can people find you online and is there anything you want to plug other than your agency? um People can find me at my website, SpokenWheelStrategy.com. Not Spoken, Spoke and. I'll try to speak clearer.
01:01:10
Speaker
And then I'm on Blue Sky, but I never know what my name is. um You can find me on Blue Sky, just D-Tribella.
01:01:22
Speaker
um That is my name. yeah um If you follow Dracneck on Blue Sky, we'll tag you in the post when this episode goes live. Oh, awesome. Great. people can People can find you there. um And that has my email too, which is just Dana at Spoken Meal Strategy if anybody wants to reach out.
01:01:40
Speaker
That's awesome. Thank you so much. um Again, this has been ah lovely chat and i ah and I know that this will help some people and I'm hoping that it will spark internal ideas among a bunch of different developers about what they can be doing to improve their own ah marketing and positioning situations.
01:01:58
Speaker
Awesome. I hope so. Yeah. All right. And thank you for listening to the Draconeck and Friends official podcast. Our music is by Priscilla Snow, who you can find at ghoulnoise.bandcamp.com.
01:02:10
Speaker
Our podcast artwork is by Adam DeGrandis. Our podcast is edited by Melanie Zawadniak. Please rate and review us on your podcast service of choice, and be sure to tune in next episode for more interesting conversations.
01:02:30
Speaker
you