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Episode 423: Rhana Natour and Eman Mohammed Take You Up Close for The Atavist
508 Plays3 months ago
Rhana Natour (@rnatourious) and Eman Mohammed (@emanit) collaborated for their Atavist story "Coming to America" about a teenage girl from Gaza who lost her legs in an Israeli airstrike and the journey she's on to walk again.
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Show notes: brendanomeara.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Host's Services
00:00:00
Speaker
Very, very hot in the studio today, the show. Takes a lot of time and part of what keeps the lights on is if you consider hiring me to edit your work. A generous editor helps you see what you can't see. It could be a pitch, a proposal, an essay, hell, even a book. If you need help cracking the code, man, you can always email me at creativenonfictionpodcast at gmail dot.com and we can start a dialogue. If
Support and Community Engagement
00:00:26
Speaker
that's not your cup of tea, there's also patreon dot.com slash cnfpod for a few bucks a month. You help support the show and you're part of a cool community of nonfiction writers who can talk amongst yourselves. It's kind of neat. Depending on your tier, you get some face to face time with me as well to talk things out. Cause sometimes you just need to talk it out, man.
00:00:47
Speaker
But she is like any other teenager, but she has to be braver than any other teenager and she has to heal faster than anyone experiencing this kind of loss because it's integral to her own ability to to live a life, to have a future.
00:01:11
Speaker
Alright, how's it going seeing
Atavist Magazine Story Introduction
00:01:13
Speaker
efforts? It's that Atavistian time of the month where we celebrate this month's Atavist magazine, writer and editor, and this ah this week, this month, all the more special because I speak with the photographer of the story as well. no No real spoilers here with it with this profile this week. We have Rana Nator and Iman Mohammed, the writer and photographer behind this incredible story called Coming to America. Leon Ilbaaz lost her legs in an Israeli airstrike in Gaza.
00:01:52
Speaker
To learn how to walk again, she had to travel more than 6,000 miles from everything she knew. Stories at magazine.adivist.com. Consider subscribing. I don't get any kickbacks. So the recommendation is true. This is an
Leon's Resilience and Adjustment
00:02:10
Speaker
amazing story of how Rana and Iman bring you up close to the human toll of these horrific and often indiscriminate bombings. Leon is a firecracker and she is a teenager and she is angry and she is grieving. And Rana and Iman take us through that and tell us what they experienced, what the experience was like, you know, documenting Leon's.
00:02:36
Speaker
story and how Leon showed tremendous agency in how her story could and should be handled. She's 14, and thanks to a nonprofit, she came to the US s to be fitted for prosthetic legs. you Both are different in length and functionality, and as Ronna writes, it's like Leon has to learn how to play two musical instruments at the same time. Story makes you feel things, man. Show notes and more to this episode. All right, Brendan of Merit.com. Hey, where you can also sign up for the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter. I'm not
Newsletter Challenges and Importance
00:03:12
Speaker
really on social media anymore. So the newsletter is my means of promotion, my means of communication, aside from the podcast.
00:03:21
Speaker
After spending about six weeks doing the weekly newsletter and watching dozens upon dozens of people unsubscribe, I'm going back to once a month. That was a furious spat of unsubscribes. And with a book coming out, I can't really afford for my platform to shrink even more. First of the month, no spam. As far as I can tell, you can't beat it. What's to get to in this pod? You know, first up, we're going to hear from lead editor and editor in chief and author of Sisters in Hate. Say we're
Editing Process Insights with Sayward Darby
00:03:55
Speaker
Darby about her side of the table. Then we'll hear from Rona and then Iman. Ready, CNFers? Riff.
00:04:12
Speaker
about this latest Atavist piece. And when when I was talking to Ronna, actually post-recording, we just were talking briefly and we are were just talking about how messy you know writing pieces are, and especially longer pieces. And we were just like really commiserating over how sloppy and messy it is. And she even told me, she was like, I write into my drafts that things are messy for the editors. to Be like, listen, I understand this is a shit show, but this is what what I'm working with. And ah so just for you on your side of the table, understanding that most drafts ah through almost until the very end are indeed very messy. How would do you keep things as clean as possible as you're looking to make that final push towards you know hitting publish?
00:04:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's a good question. And I guess I would i would say that you know some people are messier than others. um And I don't mean messy even in a negative way. you know Some people just have a bit more of a It's not even slap dash because that implies that there's not intention to it. I think you know some people kind of sit down and they're like, I just need to get words onto the page to to get the juices flowing, to get the structure in place. And then there are people who, even in a first draft, and I'm i'm more like this, you know kind of go back and polish every sentence. like They can't stand the idea of you know not editing their work as they go.
00:05:40
Speaker
um and And I don't think there's like a right or wrong way, but sometimes you know messy quote-unquote drafts where like the prose is not quite right yet. Maybe the prose hasn't even you know really been considered. It's more I'm just you know getting the story down, getting the facts down, getting the you know quotes I know I want to use down. Sometimes those are actually, I would say, in better shape, quote unquote, than stories that are that seem more polished on the surface. um Because sometimes I think it's a forest for the trees kind of situation. And people can get very hung up on, well, I want this you know sentence to sound just like this, but they're not necessarily thinking bigger picture in the same way. So it really just depends. you know um Like sometimes,
00:06:29
Speaker
I get a story in which the prose is sharp, the structure is good, and you know I've got maybe a couple of you know big picture points I need to make ah before digging into a line edit, just to you know clean things up for house style and grammar and whatnot. um And then other times I'll get what, I understand what Renna's saying, like you know something that feels more like you just word vomited it out. Um, but actually the edit doesn't take so long for me because I'm like, Oh, well this is all here. It's just clay that needs to be like molded into a shape and it's where it needs to be. Uh, and so I actually also find that to be a pretty speedy process. What gets tricky is when neither structure.
00:07:21
Speaker
nor pros is really there. And so you're just kind of looking at raw materials and you're like, wait a minute, I need to completely like reorient myself. ah So, yeah, I mean, i'm I'm thinking about, you know, her draft specifically, her first draft, um and I wouldn't at all call it like a mess. um It was definitely written more quickly than most out of his drafts, which I think just had to do with timing as much as anything else. Because we assigned this story in March, we knew we wanted to publish as soon as possible. And so you know this will have been a relatively fast turnaround for us. It's also newsy. There you know were things we had to be keeping track of in real time. the the The mess of it, if you will, I think had as much to do just with the timing we were dealing with as anything else. But we had also in advance talked extensively. And so had you know really talked about themes and structures and characterizations.
00:08:17
Speaker
And ah like I even had in mind some things she left out of the first draft where I was like, wait a minute, whatever happened to that thing we talked about? She was like, oh yeah, totally. We can put that in too. you know ah The sort of prep in advance of actually having you know all the ingredients in front of me really helped make the edit move along. And when you're, it's fairly rare with with the stories that you do that they are in fact kind of timely, have have kind of a news hook to them and that you have to kind of run through them quick. though Some have months or even years of lead time. So how how does your editing change when you have to ah be be far more nimble and far quicker than than you typically are with most of the stories you run?
00:09:03
Speaker
Yeah,
Creating a Narrative Without an Ending
00:09:04
Speaker
I think in this case, again, the prep was really important because, you know, for an out of a story versus a more traditional feature, what we were looking at was how do we make sure that the the plot, like the narrative gets elevated. And in this case, what is the narrative, right? Because we had to accept that there would not be a conclusive ending. You know, the situation in Gaza is ongoing. um and does not seem to you know show any signs of getting any better. And we knew that her medical status, amongst other things, was probably going to be unresolved by the time we published. So the question was, if we don't you know have that those sort of obvious endpoints, then what story are we telling that will feel narratively satisfying? And one of the things
Leon's Emotional Evolution
00:09:55
Speaker
we talked a lot about in advance of
00:09:58
Speaker
a draft even coming together based on you know the pre-reporting run on Iman, the photographer did, before they went to to meet the the subject. And then after meeting the subject was really about who she is as a person and how that sort of evolved, or not even evolved. It's more like she's a kid who had this absolutely horrific, like unfathomable thing happen to her. The airstrike that um forced doctors to amputate her legs also took two of her sisters, a niece and a nephew. And then after arriving in the United States, her brother was also killed in an airstrike.
00:10:33
Speaker
she she sort of had so much taken away from her and she was very angry and she's very angry at the beginning of the story and what you are watching over the course of the story is like an emotional evolution where I think she's getting back as much as anything to kind of the the kid that she you know should be, right? you know With all of these horrific tragedies around her, but you you really see a softening and a warming of her over the course of the story. um And of course, there's a lot of context around that. you know We obviously talk about what's going on in Gaza. We talk about you know the incredible crisis of pediatric amputees.
00:11:08
Speaker
um that is emerging um now and that we really just, as with all statistics in this and this situation, um don't have really firm you know numbers we can be confident in. and So that's all in there, but we really wanted to feel like Leanne, as a character, ah you know her story and and her journey um over the course of time that Rana and Iman had with her, um you know felt really like, oh, okay, I see something has happened here. you know And kind of the question of who is she gonna be by the end of the piece gets answered, if that makes sense. um
Fast-Paced Editing for Timely Storytelling
00:11:45
Speaker
And so for us, it was like, well, we know that we can, you know in a matter of hours, quite frankly, we could pull together
00:11:51
Speaker
context and you know giving people a lay of the land of what's been going on. And so that was never you know a question from a nim nim nimble standpoint, to to use your word. like we We knew that that stuff was easy to pull together. And Rana certainly has a background in more ah newsy reporting. She was a PBS correspondent, has worked for Al Jazeera, some other places. um And I've worked in you know more newsy stuff. It was, again, saying, OK, in preparation, as we're reporting this, as you're reporting this, how can we make sure that we are ah getting the the narrative that will lay over that material so that we can, I mean, essentially it's sort of like a, I don't know, like a fondant on a cake or something, right? It's like, okay, here it is. And we're just gonna like lay it over the top. so So yeah, I would say that this story in particular involves a lot more
00:12:44
Speaker
I was just in touch with writer and photographer. We had lots of long conversations before. We debriefed after their trips. You know, it was it was a ah much more sort of conversational process. And then just, you know, we in advance of going into production, um you know, worked with, we' worked with a fabulous fact checker who actually won a Livingston Award right before she started fact checking this story, um Lila Hassan. And, you know, just kind of having everybody on the same page about we've got to be paying attention to, you know, updates, whether we're talking about intimate updates in the in the story, you know, with regard to to Leanne, her family, her host family, her medical status, but then also, you know, what's going on in Gaza. And so actually, right before we got on this call, I was going back and forth with them about like, what's the latest?
00:13:33
Speaker
Essentially, like, is there anything before we hit publish tomorrow that ah needs to be updated? um Knock on wood so far. No. um But, you know, just with the understanding, too, that things could change in a week, in two weeks, in a month. And, you know, maybe we we do update the story at that point. So, yeah, it was, I mean, i'm I'm really proud of this project, and it is rare that we assign a Newseer piece, but um when they pitched it, Leanne was just such a moving, subject and I feel like so many stories ah that we have you know read or heard uh out of Gaza have this just felt like it took the time to really let you get close to her
00:14:19
Speaker
And to show, again, her anger and her grief and her all of that mixed with the fact that she's barely 14 and you know is an adolescent and an adolescent girl. And
Unique and Moving Aspects of Leon's Story
00:14:33
Speaker
you know she's interested in makeup and she's concerned about her appearance. and she yeah Any number of things that you know I once upon a time was a 14-year-old girl too. And like that was way before social media. And I just can't imagine you know what it feels like to be a 14-year-old girl now. And on top of that, to have your life and your body blown apart. you know And I just felt like this was an opportunity to really get closer ah to that person and show them in so many different dimensions.
00:15:04
Speaker
How important is it for you to have actual photography to accompany a story of this nature? This was an unusual story for us in that normally you a writer pitches us, and if we feel like, oh, this is a story that you know is going to involve photography, we find somebody ah you know who's on location, wherever the... you know sort of part of the story is, the main characters are located. um And this was Renna and Iman pitching together. So they knew that they wanted it to be a collaborative process and for the visuals to be a key part of the story. um And so we were lucky in that
00:15:45
Speaker
we didn't you mean We obviously could have found somebody great, I'm sure, but Iman already really had a vision for it. um Maybe she mentioned this when you when you spoke. to to her, but you know, she lived in Gaza for I think 27 years um and had to to leave in 2014 because of Israeli attacks and I think one of which injured her own daughter. And so there was just already this sort of intimacy and connection to the material. And we felt like for sure, especially because appearance, like the idea of what one looks like and how the world perceives and kind yeah perceives of someone, is so central thematically to the story. It felt really important that
00:16:28
Speaker
photography be not an afterthought, not that our art is ever an afterthought, but you know really be um central. And this was a rare example, too, where even you know up until like yesterday, we were like, wait, should we use this photo? Should we use this photo? you know Just to make sure that we really felt like we were elevating the text with the images. And Iman did an amazing job. um my Some of my favorites, um and because obviously not every um photo made it into the piece, but I mean, first of all, I think she does a really beautiful job of capturing Leanne as an adolescent girl, you know, who wants to to look pretty, who wants to, and she even says this, she's quoted as saying that if she she wants to look
00:17:08
Speaker
Like any other kid, you know, in this, in this story. Um, but then some of my favorite photos that I found myself just kind of staring at endlessly are of Leanne in a grocery store in Chicago, which is where she's getting her medical treatment. The juxtaposition of the bounty around her with what we know about what's going on with the starvation of. the Palestinian people in Gaza was, it's totally unspoken, right? But here she is in her wheelchair. I mean, just surrounded by every brand you can think of. It's so colorful. There's, I mean, my gosh, you know, more food than, it just, it it really, it feels like such plenty. And then knowing, you know, the situation that she came from and the situation that her loved ones are still in because she came to the United States by herself. And I thought that that was a really,
00:17:54
Speaker
I don't know how intentional that was on Iman's part, but I definitely found it to be very artful and political at the same time. And I think we ended up using one photo from that sequence where Leanne is in a checkout line at the grocery store holding this massive receipt, like it goes on for like several feet, right? And again, it's like that contrast of you know, just having as much as you could possibly want versus barely enough of what you need, I thought was really profound. Well, fantastic. Sayward, as always, it's always wonderful to get your side of the table on these things. And we'll turn it over to Rana and Aman ah now. So as always, thanks for the time and your insights. Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Rana's Discovery of Leon's Story
00:18:43
Speaker
All right, so next up, we're going to hear from Runna Nator. She's R Notorious on Instagram. That's R-N-A-T-O-U-R-I-O-U-S. Did I spell that right? R-N-A-T-O-U-R-I-O-U-S. Yes. And her website is RunnaNator.com. She's an award-winning correspondent, journalist, and producer who specializes in documentary storytelling, digital explainers, and feature reporting. Her work has aired on PBS NewsHour, Al Jazeera, English, More Perfect Union, and Scripps News. She spent her early career in the Middle East, first as a U.S. Fulbright Scholar in the UAE, and then in the West Bank as part of the producing team of Speed Sisters. Great stuff. Good talk coming up. So let's hear how Ronna arrived at this story.
00:19:41
Speaker
How I learned about this story was from Iman Muhammad, actually, the photographer on this piece, who called me and told me that there were organizations who were evacuating children from Gaza, injured children from Gaza, to the US. And I was particularly struck around the injury of amputations. I just couldn't get it out of my mind. It seems like one of the most traumatic injuries that a child can sustain, even more so than being disabled because it's the physical removal of part of your body. And once we started learning how many kids had lost limbs in this war, I mean, the only single data to point that we have is from UNICEF, that a thousand kids in the span of two months, which is 10 children a day, were losing limbs.
00:20:27
Speaker
It wasn't just a story that we had to do. And these organizations heal um in the end, started working with us to see who we could talk to. And the nature of this injury and the nature of how deeply traumatized these children and their parents are meant that we that i talked to a lot of families i had to talk to a lot of families who really couldn't even begin to process what happened to them they were at the very beginning stages and they were too traumatized to even partake in this process so um leanne finding leanne and just meeting her and seeing the spirit that she had
00:21:10
Speaker
the life force that she had to fight for her own future, to fight for herself and to fight for her family because they really wanted her to heal as well. It was just so inspiring and and I just loved the tenacity to which she pursued and is pursuing that goal. Walk us through the the conversations that you're having with the families so you can get the access that you want in such a way that it doesn't feel exploitative.
Challenges in Accessing Traumatized Families
00:21:49
Speaker
That was very difficult because going through an experience like this, many people were too traumatized to be part of it part of a story like this. The parents were too overwhelmed, too traumatized. they They hadn't absorbed what happened to them themselves in order to even be open to to speaking to a journalist. And the kids were also too traumatized in a way, and they weren't even open to it. So it took a lot of conversations with a lot of families and a lot of children. And the idea was we think that this is happening to a lot of kids, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of kids.
00:22:27
Speaker
And we want to show the world what it's like to experience this. This doesn't just impact a child. It impacts everyone they know. It impacts the trajectory of the lives of their families, as well as these individual children. And I tell them that we want to show that, and we want to show the impact that it has on a child. And this involves a lot of time with you, and are you okay with that? And some people said no, and we had to respect that, and I did respect that, and some people were really open to it, and that also involved dealing with the trauma that they experienced and what that does to their behavior and what that does to the reporting process. And we were, I was prepared for that, and um I understood that it would be, there would be a lot of curveballs, because this just happened to them.
00:23:19
Speaker
like When you're able to zoom in on, let's say, Leon's story, it puts a face on it instead of the these gross numbers they that you cite in the piece. like Approximately 15,000 children dead, 20,000 missing, 12,000 injured. And like those numbers might just glaze over someone. as it's earth shattering to kind of to hear those numbers but they are numbers but when you put a face to it with this one you know brilliant courageous courageous teenager who and the trauma she's going through suddenly it it hits home in a way that mere numbers don't uh hit home if that makes any sense right and i think i think you understand that at the end of the day
00:24:08
Speaker
Every human being wants the same thing. They want to fight for their own survival. They want to fight for something. And once you see these kids, how far they're willing to fight and you see a world that's just willing to let them do it on their own. I mean, it is infuriating because you you see how she's no different than your own daughter. She's no different than your own niece. But somehow, I mean, this shouldn't be a necessary exercise. It really shouldn't be. But she is like any other teenager, but she has to be braver than any other teenager, and she has to heal faster than anyone experiencing this kind of loss because it's integral to her own ability to to live a life, to have a future. And you know ah recently I came back from a shoot
00:24:57
Speaker
And i I followed a girl who was an amputee from Egypt to the US, and a beautiful young girl who was missing a leg. And all the flight attendants were just horrified. They're like, how could this happen? How could somebody do this to this little girl? And what how did you know how did this even occur? And I said, well, there's a war in Gaza, and there are thousands like her. And they they couldn't believe it. you know They saw this girl right in front of them that they'd been giving water and and teeth and talking to throughout this whole flight and They just they were just so angry at the fact that somebody or something could hurt her and Couldn't comprehend that I don't think they were some of them weren't following the war but couldn't comprehend that this was allowed to happen to thousands of others you know, what were your first impressions when you when you first ah you know met this met Leon and I wanted to turn back around and get into my car. I mean, I thought, like, what do I do here? Like, am I allowed to do this? Like, you know, we talked before and it was a totally different I was dealing with a different person.
Leon's Desire for Story Control
00:26:06
Speaker
And I just kind of had to understand because I, you know, I had to read a little bit about trauma throughout the reporting process here before before this and since. And ah and that's what happens. You know, you're you're
00:26:20
Speaker
it makes you It makes your moods more severe, and especially when adolescents are dealing with trauma. Part of that process is aggression, is mood swings. that She can't be blamed for anything that she feels, and part of that is is being on the receiving end of some of that, and that's okay. And so my first inclination is, oh my God, like what should I do? What should we do? Should we just speak to someone else? should we say thank you very much and turn right back around and get on a plane back home. I wasn't sure what the answer was. And you know as we talked to her more, it was clear that she wanted to tell her story. she was She was insistent on that, but she wanted control. And I think when you are a child in a war,
00:27:07
Speaker
You don't have any control. And journalists will come up to you in your worst moments and document what's happening to you. And that not may not be an image that you want remembered. That may not be an image that you want distributed. And I think she experienced that a little bit before. And she wanted to make sure that she had some control now, now that she was well enough, now that she was out of the hospital. now that she had some strength to make demands and I respected it and I and I admired her because there was a force in her
00:27:39
Speaker
There was like a life force that a spirit that she was fighting for. And I just, it was just an incredible thing. I have a future. Don't tell me I don't and don't make it harder for me to carve that future out for myself. And I could only admire it, even though it was a little bit tricky and scary to deal with because it was a a really aggressive demand. But what she was saying was entirely reasonable and something that I respected immensely. you know you You've been a reporter and a journalist for for a while, but I wonder what the experience of of reporting on this story you know did for you, changed for you, you know made you better at what you do, or alert a learning experience at this story in particular, the impressions it made made on you, especially you know during the process of the writing and the reporting of it, but also going forward.
Balancing Anger and Resilience in Storytelling
00:28:32
Speaker
Well, dealing with children
00:28:34
Speaker
is a very high stakes endeavor. And I learned a lot about what should and shouldn't happen when dealing with with kids and dealing with traumatized individuals. And it's it's one of the hardest, it was one of the hardest experiences of my journalistic career because I was just, there were times where I was uncertain of what the right thing to do was. you know Ultimately I think We came out with a nuanced perspective of what this really is like because they're the easier path is to go with a character that's really grateful and really happy and like really kind of the perfect quote unquote victim as they say of just
00:29:16
Speaker
has has everything that you want to hear to make yourself feel better about what's going on. And Leanne was unwilling to play that part, and that's what I loved about her because that's really what happens in real life. The people that journalists choose to profile, in some ways that's self that that's a self-selecting process because they might go with a character that's easier to deal with, they might go with a story that's easier to tell, they're there They might go with a story that involved less landmines as a journalist, a reporter, a storyteller. This was not one of those stories, but it just had to be. That's what I loved about this because it just shows that anger, it shows we don't speak about anger enough in in people who experience something like that and anger of children.
00:30:03
Speaker
we We don't expect that kind of emotion. We expect, like, the host famme the host mom, Dina, said you expect sadness. But anger is also something that is really real, especially when it comes to adolescence. And what happens to them tells them something about the world that they're entering. And if you have your legs amputated in a war that the world is willing to watch go on and on and on, what does that tell you about the world as a 13-year-old? And when you talk about agency and anger, here her legs were amputated, didn't have much by way of say of that. was ah My understanding is what it was probably best, but you also just don't you don't know. I don't think she would have maybe elected for that, but I think it was probably the right call medically.
00:30:54
Speaker
and then she could have had family come over with her, and she learns about that later, and so she's very much alone in the States, even though she has this very empathetic host family. you know so you really And then she's a teenager, so you you get a sense of, there's a cauldron of anger and angst here that is and very very justified, but ah and I'm glad she leaned into it, and I'm glad you were able to convey it in a way, because it's very real and very raw. we're not sure even if she came with somebody whether this anger would have subsided but there was a that's the kind of riverbed that that anger went through through is because she came alone but she might have found other ways to direct her anger that's likely but that you know she came alone
00:31:40
Speaker
because adults who cared about her decided that that would be the best course of action. They were very, very concerned about her mental health. She was disintegrating before their eyes, and and they they wanted to get her out. They wanted to give her hope. and that was the choice that That's a very, very painful choice for this family to send their 13-year-old daughter to a place that a country they've never been. She's never gotten on a plane before. this isn't you know Many people in Gaza that are evacuating, this is their first time ever getting on a plane. This is a place that has been closed off from the world. And their family members that go with them are full adults who've also never gotten on a plane, never been able to travel.
00:32:22
Speaker
So everyone is going in blind to this experience and they did the, every adult involved did the best they could. And they were really confined by outside factors. And, you know, she was mad about it. And and that's a reasonable reaction, but it's not because it wasn't the right decision. i'm I'm not sure what the right decision was, but she felt, she felt alone and you know, she is alone and it's, it's, Even if she was with a relative, she may have felt alone because she is singularly experiencing this. She's the one that it it is without her legs and has to figure out a future for herself. And that that is going to be a lonely road, no matter who is with you.
00:33:03
Speaker
Yeah and you you're write in the piece too as she gets her prosthetics and she's working through the the physical therapy of that and you know you wrote that these pro prosthetics were because they were so different um for each limb is like learning to play two different instruments at the same time. And you're paying witness to that and and everything. So
Challenges with Prosthetics
00:33:26
Speaker
just as ah as a reporter, how delicately do you have to you know handle these sort of observational details um to just to be of utmost respect and do as little harm as possible to your central figure? Well, it was something that I was shocked to learn that I really thought that getting prosthetics and learning to use them was a lot
00:33:50
Speaker
simpler. of I just didn't realize how difficult it was. I knew it was difficult, but I didn't understand how prosthetics are basically not as advanced as we think they are. one There was a ah woman named Dr. Emily Mayhew who really explained this to me so well. She said, you see Paralympic athletes running down a track with blades and you think we've checked that box. We haven't checked that box. The prosthetics that we are using and the prosthetics that these kids have as an option are essentially the same basically functionally as the prosthetics that Civil War so soldiers had. the main to The main development, the main um innovation was the mechanical need. they can't These smart bionic
00:34:44
Speaker
limbs are not something that children from Gaza can take advantage of. It doesn't match the realities on the ground for Gaza. They have to charge it. If they need a part, they're not going to be able to get that part. It's way too advanced. Technology actually doesn't solve the problem of making these prosthetics good for children. It's a design issue. It's not a technology issue. So so if you make a kind of the iPhone of of prosthetic legs, that actually doesn't solve these kids' problems. And I was just shocked to learn how difficult it it is. And and you know I witnessed Leanne trying to put on one of her prosthetics, and she couldn't get it to fit. And it just took 15 minutes of trying to get this prosthetic to fit. And I and i realized why is because her her limb swells up. And the size of her limb swells in different sizes throughout the day.
00:35:37
Speaker
And that means that I mean, imagine trying to put on your on your shoe and it not being able to fit and having to put it on five times, six times, seven times in order for you to get out the door. And compounding that is that yeah she's 14 years old now, and so she's still growing. And there's gonna be further complications of having to be refit for prosthetics. Is ah yeah is home going to be able to accommodate that? Or is she gonna have to come back to states? Or does she stay in the states? like it's There are so many things that it's not like,
00:36:16
Speaker
here Here are these prosthetics for you and at 14 and happy ending. It's ah very much ongoing and lifelong and the complications are really only starting. The solution for these children, for these thousands of children, is going to have to be built and found in Gaza. We cannot evacuate all the kids that need this kind of specialized care and it's so long term that they need to get it at home. for Leanne, Albaaz, and for every other kid that needs to be, focused and we need to focus on
00:36:51
Speaker
the solution to be in Gaza. And that and this is why, because on average, a child amputee is going to need three surgeries a year until they start they stop growing. Even in resource rich environments like the UK, like the US, sometimes they even wait until the kid stops growing in order to fit prosthetics because it is so expensive. So it is one of the most complicated injuries a child can have. being an amputee. What's great, at least how you how how you handle the story, is you really just lay it out there through your reporting, through the time you were able to you spend with her. And you get a sense of this, and you imbue it with ah the context. But you know yeah it's just it's handled very definitely in that regard.
Balancing Micro and Macro Elements
00:37:42
Speaker
so
00:37:43
Speaker
As you were you know setting down to write this piece, you know what was on the forefront of your mind as you were looking to just tell, you know just lay it out there, illustrate it, let let her story do the heavy lifting for you. There was the micro story of Leanne Albaz, her journey. And then there is the macro story of the reality of why she was in this situation in the first place, what this injury is like on a medical level, and then what her future holds. And that there are hope there are there's not an answer to what the future holds. Really, it's it's still a choice, I think, an international choice. ah There is still time to
00:38:26
Speaker
you know make sure that there is a happier ending for her and for other kids in her situation. I don't know if they're they i don't know if the collective, if the world will come together to to really ensure that it's a happy ending for her, but it's it's not in her hands, it's not in our hands. It's really a collective decision on whether we're going to make sure that this war will end soon, that Gaza will be rebuilt in a way that allows for a future for land and for all Palestinians in Gaza. And it's an enormous effort. It's probably the largest project in modern history.
Leon's Current Status and Geopolitical Tensions
00:39:05
Speaker
I mean, we've never seen a place so destroyed. Yeah. Is land still in the States right now? She is still in the States.
00:39:17
Speaker
and so you know you figure what it was the the other day yesterday or something so like you know Netanyahu is in the States defending this war and here she is probably you know getting getting wind of this and here's this a guy responsible for her bombing her country into the Stone Age and you know here. She is listening to that. It's got to be a very problematic Experience headspace wise be like here. I am in this country. That's making is trying to make me better But it's also one of the fundamental countries that is enabling the war to happen yeah, I mean I I Imagine it's rather head spinning spinning for a lot of people
00:39:57
Speaker
not just her. And she's, you know, she's 13 years old. She has, I don't know if she understands, but she she does.
Media Portrayal and Public Perception
00:40:07
Speaker
I think she does. I mean, I don't know if she she watched that speech. id I'd be interested to hear if she did. There are many people that helped make this decision and make this reality happen that goes beyond Netanyahu. I mean, there's a whole military infrastructure behind his decisions. They don't have to take his orders. you know like there are There are generals that don't have to say yes to everything he does. and And there's a society that doesn't have to say yes to what he wants to do. um But it takes people standing up
00:40:37
Speaker
Yeah, it's it I don't know how what will happen, but he got standing ovations many, many times in the halls of Congress.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah. And what is, you know, you as ah as a reporter who covers this and really as probably as more intimate experience of the cost of it than than most people, you know, when you when you see that, what what's going through your mind and your your your headspace as you're you know watching that and metabolizing that.
00:41:10
Speaker
as someone who's interested in Reality, in fact, it feels a little bit like being in the upside down it because The military official that BB Netanyahu cited in his speech Who said that the IDF? avoided civilian casualties more than any other army when it comes to urban warfare and He's the one guy that's saying this. Other military experts are saying the opposite. And there are many, many more military experts who are saying the opposite than are saying what this one military official says. And I think he believes what he says. I think he really does believe what he says, but that doesn't mean that it's reality. And that doesn't mean that it's fact.
00:42:03
Speaker
Yeah, when you when you work in a fact-based world, and it's maddening to see the malleability of of the brain, ah of certain brains, and it's ah all the more maddening and ah and scary, really. It's very scary. It's very scary. I mean, the the the the facts really speak for themselves. The numbers speak for themselves. And there've been a there's been a dispute about the death toll, but there's no been no counter evidence to prove that it isn't real. And we see that it's real. I mean, all you have to do is look at the footage coming out of Gaza. That's all you have to do is pay attention to that. And then tell me if what
00:42:46
Speaker
Bibi Netanyahu's framing of this war. Tell me that that is correct after doing that. It would be wonderful to keep unpacking things and ah and keep talking longer about this wonderful story that that you and Iman have packaged because it is one of those things that a just it just hits you like a sledgehammer. And the more we get these kind of stories out there, maybe the the the more the levers will turn to and to end these atrocities. So I just have to commend you on just an incredible job. And just thank you so much for coming on to talk about it. Thank All right, now batting third we come to Iman Mohammed. She's a brilliant photographer and her work brings you up close and personal with her subjects. She's at Iman IT, Iman it on Instagram and her website is Iman Mohammed dot com. She's a Palestinian photojournalist and senior Ted Fellow and the author creator photographer behind the photographic memoir The Cracks in My Lens.
00:43:56
Speaker
Her work is grounded in her Palestinian roots and heritage. Her work has appeared in The Guardian, Le Monde, Vice, The Washington Post, among many others. Some amazing stuff. And she's going to tell us how she gets so close to her subjects, but also went to back off.
00:44:17
Speaker
And in particular, with respect to the camera, you know, what is it about photography ah that really speaks to you as your as your trade? I think it's just the ability to take the people there, you know, like the text definitely gives you all the details and ah the the information that you might be ah wanting to know, but the the stories can only be illustrated visually by photo and video and photo for me is
00:44:52
Speaker
my ability to put you there. If that's my only magical power is just to to take people into that moment that I'm seeing, freeze it and put it capsulated into that specific frame and let them just dive in, be able to just soak that emotion or whatever the frame is giving and live it live it to the maximum because that's ah that's what documentary photography does but also I don't think that there is any kind of word that can describe the emotions like the photo ability to do so.
00:45:38
Speaker
Oh, for sure. and it's ah you know Words as powerful as words are, and you know they only carry you you know so far. And images throughout history have a have a way of sometimes changing history and really evoking the the very raw, ah almost un unfiltered thing that we're seeing before us. And is that is that something of a draw, too, that like images, ah no matter how ah how brutal and how honest and painful to look at, they might ah affect change in some capacity. Sometimes it's just you need to see it. You know, it doesn't have to be like painful or hard. It's just you need to see it. you need to You need to have your eyes laid on how it looks like to be able to visualize it because some of us have that ability to just visualize anything and some of us struggle with that. I know to me at times it just depends on the topic and the
00:46:33
Speaker
the theme. So I think it's really a power to be able to um just capsulate the moments. As a photographer and as you study ah yeah know other images, other photographers and a work you admire, ah can you point to ah a singular image or a set of images that that really set you on the path that you're on that really inspired you to to do what you do? Oh, that's a tough one. That's a really tough one. I think I get asked that question quite a lot. I should have a better answer, but I can never say one because I feel like it's ah it's constantly evolving. I keep on ah i keep on looking at, ah I grew up in Gaza and so I grew up in ah in a very ah
00:47:24
Speaker
dynamic environment
Power of Photography in Storytelling
00:47:25
Speaker
that had always been affected but by what you see. For a Palestinian, like everything that I saw and the world saw, it it affected the course of my life and others. So I cannot say one, but I have to say that it's ah it it probably was just a combination of so many images that I've seen in Lebanon in 2006 that were all very powerful. And they just pushed me even further that cemented the idea in my head that the presence of a photojournalist in the field that we're at, especially documentary ah photojournalism is very, very important. And for me, it was my calling.
00:48:14
Speaker
I've heard other photographers talk about say like the best ah zoom lens is your legs. to You just to get closer and close as close as you possibly can. Is that something you find to be true that you know that ah you know you want to be as on top of whatever you're shooting as possible? Absolutely agree. It also can be like ah its can be a dangerous at times or maybe ah levels too intrusive in certain moments. So I i always
00:48:48
Speaker
like having my tele lens. But I do believe that there is value to being able to be close, because just the ability of being close is just such a power to for people to be comfortable with you being close. That means that you mastered that you mastered your craft, you know where you are, they know where you are. And everyone is comfortable with you and you're not intimidated by your surroundings. that's that's the You're at the top of the top. But it's I think it's also worth to say that it's case by case. There are so many situations that you don't want to over, not just overstay your welcome, but you also don't want to um underestimate the sensitivity of the moment and think that you can be in someone's face when you can't. And think that, you oh, no, I can do this. And you're like, no, no, no, no, you might want to just take a step back. Because, you know, as photographers, we judge everything. It's like, it's like cooking, you know, everything is like by a measurement. And you never know what is too much, what is too little without being in the situation. And I i just believe in it being with the with a lot of a lot of courtesy to the people who are being photographed.
00:50:12
Speaker
and that's something i never I never take out of my head. like there is no There is no recipe that I just apply to everything else. Oh, for sure. It's in because of the nature of having the device of a camera in hand and then being up close and pointing it at someone. Like you you brought up the ah just the word intrusive. It can definitely feel that way. ah and what In what ways do you try to hedge against that to be as gentle with it as possible while at the same time you know having to do what you need to do to document what you're seeing?
00:50:47
Speaker
I think putting it a close but lower angle and being around the people, speaking to the people for quite some time and it feeling out how what is the temperature, how do they feel about my presence, and then feeling how do they feel about me snapping few photos that might not be the photos that I want. might not be the photos that I'm going for, but just feeling how how is the reaction to me even raising my camera and just snapping. And now we're blessed with the technology that have cameras with silent chatter or mirrorless. So that helps us a lot, but you also don't want to also always be sneaky. you know You want them to know that you're taking photos. So it's kind of it's it's always the balance. It's continuously the balance.
00:51:34
Speaker
And to have your, there had always been old school that told us to be a fly on the wall, which is true. There's so much ah appreciation to that. But i I like, I'm one of the photographers who like to be there and announce, especially in certain situations where people don't like to be ambushed. They don't like to suddenly feel like, oh, you took a ah photo in a sneaky way. So it's kind of it's kind of like the, it's hit or miss situations. And I think once they get to being bored by your presence, it's so that's that's this the sweet spot for me. That's when I'm like, okay, I'm i'm good. They are good. We can keep going. Right.
00:52:21
Speaker
Yeah, it's, ah you know, what I was looking at, you know, ah images from your body of work and, ah you know, it just it comes across as a very empathic eye. And I wonder how you have like been able to over the course of your career, like been able to take you know the camera and and make it a tool of empathy and not just like voyeurism. I think I i like documenting ah stories that I am close to, ah to some extent. I don't believe in
00:52:56
Speaker
too much closeness. Yes, there is too much closeness to some extent, but professionalism come and kind of stand ah to be a very clear defining moment within those stories. ah But ah I'd like to be close enough to be able to tell the story as well, to not be parachuting. ah There is value to parachuting at times because and there are, you know, situations around the world where we need more journalists to tell the story, but I prefer to be on the inside. and
00:53:31
Speaker
The more I am able to understand it for a longer term, the more I'm able to tell you about the hidden parts of it. And I think that that goes a long way. And marginalized communities by nature like to tell the stories from within. They don't like to have someone ah who claim to be their savior to tell their stories. which I think is is very clear by now. and A lot of advocates had been telling us this. And I'm just one of many who's just trying to emphasize at the same point through the photos, through the stories, and through showing what is missing. And I think there is a lot of value to that.
00:54:18
Speaker
And with the the story for the Atavis and chronicling this ah just harrowing journey of Leon, in what ways was, when you when you locked into the story, like how personal was this story for you? Very
Iman's Personal Connection and Documentation
00:54:32
Speaker
personal. I mean, I'm from Gaza. I i lived in Gaza till I was 27. So I didn't just grow up there. um I had both of my kids in Gaza as well. I, Leanne is in the age of my, one of my daughters actually. She's 14 now. My daughter is 13 and a half. So it's all way too familiar. And she was, she lost both of her legs.
00:54:58
Speaker
ah during an airstrike, during the genocide in Gaza. So everything about it was ah something that I definitely needed to document, the world definitely needed to see. It was just the how. How can we bring it closer to the attention of the audience, especially in the United States? My daughter was ah and a victim of one of the airstrikes in 2014, so it's something that I wasn't able to document, as put a journalist, for an example. Leann's story was way more glaring. it's ah It's a story that cannot be sidelined. it It's a story that cannot be ignored in the in the current atmosphere specifically.
00:55:39
Speaker
ah it's It's something that needed a lot of delicate approach because Leanne was also a survivor of a genocide that is ongoing genocide. So you have a lot of but big component of PTSD. Her family are still in Gaza. She was the only person who came to the United States through that NGO heal. And so there are so many moving parts that made this story very captivating, very important to be told for as a journalist, but at the same time, very extremely hard.
Preparing for Meetings with Leon
00:56:14
Speaker
And as you're, let's say, you're with, you know, you're you're in the <unk> say in the car heading over to meet Leon. And just as you're getting ready to to meet you, you've done you've done some you know some background research, you kind of know what you're getting into. But if I'm kind of like a, ah you know, just over your shoulder and you're telling me what's happening, like what's going through your mind is you're getting ready to to meet this young woman and, you know, document you know her story the way you're capable of doing it. A lot of things where I was trying to, one, make sure that there hadn't been any updates with her family because her family are still in Gaza. So every day was kind of a continuation of the tragedy. So I was trying to make sure that there hadn't been
00:57:01
Speaker
Something new that I wasn't aware of that happened with her in her world because she's living in two worlds. She's living with us and she's living in the US. And so I was keeping track of that. At the same time, she's ah she was 13 and she became 14 when she moved to the US. So you have a teenager, a teenager who's going through all the normal phases of a teenager life. And you have to take that in consideration. You cannot treat her as, quote unquote, a victim and because she will reject that. And ah it's it's just ah it's a very yeah it's a very obvious thing, but we easily forget about it. ah it wasn't There is no one story that is like the other during the aftermath, but this was not a complete aftermath either. So there were, again, so many movement parts
00:57:52
Speaker
that had to be dissected and like treated separately and all treated together. And Leanne is a person of her own. like She has her own ah bit like way of describing what she feels, how she feels. So yeah I have to be ready to take that in and not color the story with whatever I already have in mind. And that's something continuously I aspire to have in all of my stories, but it's also something that I have to remind myself of. So all of these components kept nudging me on my shoulders, and I kept thinking about, aside from that, how the the photo story plays.
00:58:36
Speaker
She's she lost both of her legs. And she, yeah as you as you can see in the photo story and in the story, she wears hijab. um So there were an in our culture, it's okay to take out the hijab in front of women. So while she was sitting with me, she was comfortable in so many situations, she would take it off. So balancing the time that I can photograph versus the time that I can chat with her versus the time that I can translate what she's saying. it was It was a big, big story. It was way bigger than I had anticipated.
00:59:11
Speaker
Mm. Oh, for sure. And she just the way Rana's story reads, ah she is just a a fiery personality. And very and I just I just, you know, feel for her so much. And I just I love her her personality that really comes through. Like she's just a firebrand. I I really did. Did she come across like that? Right. You know, right away when you when you met her. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you can you can't help it, but love her, feel that ability of, she's resilient, she's very resilient. ah Children her age are known to be this resilient, but you cannot help it, but wonder like if you will ever meet someone as amazing as Leanne. Like she has this kind of charisma that will leave, ah
01:00:08
Speaker
ah ah an impact on you that you will not forget for a very long time. She definitely has this fiery aspect to her. She's she's angry, rightfully so, at the whole entire world. ah She went through unprecedented tragic events through her life. She continues to, there's so much to unpack through her story, but the most beautiful, at the same time, powerful thing is that she unpacks it for you.
01:00:41
Speaker
You don't touch anything. She tells you how the story is going to be told. And to me, that's that's that's exactly how documentation should go. She's the one who's showing me what's going on through her story. This story was very sensitive and required a lot of ah delicate approach. Everything that I was able to capture in photo depended so heavily on how Leanne felt in that moment and in that day. So wherever her ah mental capacity, whatever her mental capacity and whatever her um ah ability to express herself, wherever she was in that day, that's what I was able to capture. And it all was relying on being able to reach her and approach her
01:01:37
Speaker
accordingly to um how she felt. It's
Challenges of Photographing Leon
01:01:42
Speaker
it's also dependent on her not feeling um the camera so much because anytime that she would feel the camera, you can see this wall building up again, and just her shutting down. So it it was a lot of hurry up and wait, because the the The lay-in that you see through the photos required so much time to warm up and just be present. And I think that that is the beauty, but it's also the hardship.
01:02:15
Speaker
of being able to document something with that high sensitivity. um When PTSD is involved, when so much trauma and so much ah hardship in a story all combined together, it' it was it's it was beautiful to see her glow through some frames. And it was heartbreaking to see her ah just completely shut down. And there were frames that got thrown out, frames of that got included, but it was all depending on that moment and that moment only. It strikes me that ah maybe this case, unlike ah other stories, it really required a tremendous amount of patience on your part also. is that Would that be a fair assessment? Absolutely. Mine and hers. I think a lot on hers as well, because we just both learned that we had so many conversations about what is this going to result too.
01:03:14
Speaker
And to have that conversation with an adult is different than to have it with a 14-year-old um teenager, and to explain that she will she will need to to decide what she wants to see of a photo ah story about herself yeah accompanied by ah by text. So it it was a lot, and it was a lot of of yeah ah patience as well as conversation. I think there was a lot of beneficial conversation that was brought to the surface. And she she she was a champion walking through all of it. Right. And, you know, ah towards the end of the piece, yeah this is when, you know, Rana kind of pulls herself and and you into the story a bit. And Lian, you know, she said, I don't want you to take photos of me that include my injury. And right off the bat, she's very she has that agency that she doesn't want to be seen as necessarily a a victim or just like
01:04:13
Speaker
this a token injured person she wants to be seen as a an individual who just happens to be you know just you know but tragically injured. Right and it's not that uncommon to be honest and during aftermath ah stories and typically she she did definitely did not want to be seen as ah ah victim. She had so much power and resilience, ah but she also had a lot of trauma, and it it was it was very glaring, very so obvious, unprocessed trauma.
01:04:53
Speaker
that we had to be very delicate around. I had to ah remind um myself and Rana that this is not a story that we typically just cover and move and continue covering other aspects. This is a story that needs to be handled very, very delicately because Again, she is 14. She's going to present a lot of power and a lot of resilience. That doesn't mean that she's that there isn't a lot of a lot of trauma and pain and suffering, but this's ah that's that's the beauty of covering the whole story through her eyes, through her experience. It's her story.
01:05:37
Speaker
do you Do you find also that you know given that you're from Gaza and Palestine that you're able to forge ah a quicker bond and a quicker trust that allowed maybe maybe allowed you inside quicker or certainly more intimate than yeah just and just about any other photographer who might be allowed into her orbit? I believe so. I don't like to overplay that hand or even underestimate the severity of the situation that I'm going into ah for two reasons, because like I know the trauma because I also dealt with it myself. So it's ah it's so raw and it's so um it's so sensitive.
01:06:19
Speaker
I definitely know the bond and know the connection. So did Leanne. And that is a bittersweet kind of aspect to it. it it makes a It makes it harder at times because we know how we're perceived in the outside world. And we know what to avoid, what not to avoid. But it's not know-it-all kind of situation. you know it's it it it doesn't so it It doesn't mean it. ah in a way that it's it makes us immune in in in the perspective of what to do from here. Like even while talking to Leanne, I still was not fully aware of what she wanted.
01:07:05
Speaker
to to present till she was able to tell me with her words. I still needed to emphasize that ah she has agency, that she can tell us what she wants, that she can stop, that interview. You know what I mean? like yeah There are aspects that cannot be forgotten or disregarded because I am from Gaza. In fact, it's important to just remind myself, remind ah the storyteller, in that case, Leanne, of them even twice or three times as much because we're from the same place and we don't like that to be ever forgotten. and So I think it's ah it's ah it's a bonus for sure, but it's ah it's also, it's a very, very sensitive, delicate aspect.
01:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, and speaking of that agency as well, there there's a moment later in the piece where she's, you know, she's at her physical therapy and she's, you know, she allowed you to photograph her um on her test legs, but she, you know, as Ronna writes, she would shoot the camera away when Angela, the PT, was stretching her body without them. And, you know, right there you get a sense of the agency and what she's comfortable with and what she wants to project. Yes,
Leon's Agency in Documentation
01:08:21
Speaker
and we had like I had to make sure to let her know that she can cancel ah any kind of approval that she already gave because this is a situation like no other. And she knew fully that she can always retract her yeah approval to these kinds of situations because the photos that were taken got filtered through
01:08:50
Speaker
once and twice and three times. and She wasn't only only a child who was in the US, injured, double amputee, but she was also alone without her family. She had no guardian, which made things much, much more complicated in regard of the interviewing process that that was the case as well. So there were so many ah times where I had to remind her, like, you know, I know that you're feeling uncomfortable and you can tell us to stop. I know you're feeling uncomfortable. You can let us know that you need a break. These were very important things for us. it's it It was not um it was not that in that moment that she just realized that she can do that. It was a very, very spoken agreement that at any point you feel uncomfortable.
01:09:45
Speaker
You can tell me and there was the language barrier so that was not ah underestimated either i had to like make sure that she knows this is this is not how it goes she also spoke about ah how she felt at times when people were. photographing her in the past. that She mentioned one time when she was um under ah like she was drugged and she did not feel comfortable with cameras being in the room. So that made her even more comfortable. And I take that as I appreciate that because I know that she was that comfortable to vent and let me know that she feels that she can trust me and know that I'm not going to take those photos and run.
01:10:28
Speaker
Right, and I guess one other thing I'd love to ask you is, you know as a as someone who deeply immerses herself in you know in in your subject matter, you know you're very up close to to seeing things that are that you can't unsee, and you're taking pictures, and then you're going back and you're processing them, and you see them again, and then you might even see them again upon publication, so you're getting a, you're deeply immersed in what can be very traumatic material, and I wonder what, yeah What things do you put in place to maybe allow you to, not not like therapy, but to properly synthesize things so it doesn't totally like bring you down into like the total darkness, if that makes any sense?
01:11:10
Speaker
Of course, no, no, it does. It absolutely doesn't. It's it's such an important question. um I keep my emotions in check in the sense that I keep reminding myself that I also can pause. I can stop. um it's it's it's ah It's both ways. Lianne can stop. I can stop as well, because both of us are in a very grilling um ah interview. it's It's very hard for everyone involved. And that's okay. That even inspire confidence for the person that you're interviewing. ah it's ah It's harder when you have other elements involved.
01:11:47
Speaker
and the more people are involved in the future, it becomes a little bit harder or less convenient. But and I keep myself in check. I keep my emotions in check. I have my process. I have my mental aspect, my emotional aspect process. I don't edit right away. And when I edit right away, I leave a few weeks between the second round and third round of edits. I keep this good kind of relationship between me and the person that I'm working with, in this case, Leanne and her host family. They do have a lot of leverage over the photos
01:12:28
Speaker
Like they they can choose while we're shooting where Where we can shoot where we cannot shoot and that's solely because of how sensitive the topic is and because she's a child um So there are exceptions that are made to also give me the peace of mind So I wouldn't have to struggle a lot with this. I definitely sing the praises of ah therapy because we're talking about a lot of PTSD here yeah and a lot of film and It's a story that is heavily involved with graphic details, with the the hardship of war and the consequences and the aftermath. So you have to facilitate it and process it with specialists. She also dealt with a lot of specialists on her end, which helped. So there was there was really a big team working on this. It wasn't just me and Leanne or me and Leanne and her host family.
01:13:27
Speaker
um But I value having loose requirements to what can stay and what can be killed in regarding of the photos. And that puts me at ease. Because if I have to stress about each and every photo that Leanne decided to take out, that would drive me nuts as a photojournalist. But it doesn't, because I know that given her even um bigger ability or longer ah bandwidth to say yes and no puts me more at ease, make me feel like she is ah going to be happier with the presentation of her story.
01:14:05
Speaker
ah Fantastic. Well, I'm on like, yeah you know, your your work's an inspiration and ah it's so so beautifully and sensitively done. And I'm so glad we got to have this conversation about this piece for the activist and ah your contributions to it. So I just thank you so much for the time for talking a little shop and ah giving us some insights into how you went about the work for the story. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you.
01:14:33
Speaker
Gosh, what a trip. What a trip. Thank you very much to say where to run it in Iman. No parting shot this week because this pod is pretty long. Many voices in this pod and I'm not gonna tag on another few minutes of whatever, whatever nonsense that I'm usually up to. So remember, if you dig the show, pass it along and subscribe so you never miss these incredible guests who grace the CNF and airwaves. If you can, subscribe to the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter at BrendaMarra.com. hey And remember to stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do interviews, see ya.