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Episode 386: Lana Hall
1.3k Plays1 year ago
Lana Hall is a journalist and essayist based out of Toronto, Canada. Her essay "We Are All Animals at Night" ran in Hazlitt.
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Sponsor: Liquid IV, promo code cnf
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Transcript
Introduction and Sponsorship
00:00:00
Speaker
AC and Everest, this episode is affiliately sponsored by Liquid IV, meaning I don't get paid unless you buy stuff. Yeah, that's how these things work. Yeah, I gotta say, Liquid IV is pretty tasty stuff. It's a great way to rehydrate and fuel those endurance activities, or if you just want to zhush up your water. Been a big fan of the lemon lime. It's non-GMO, free from gluten, dairy, and soy. There's also a sugar-free version. I really recommend the white peach.
00:00:27
Speaker
You get 20% off if you go to liquidiv.com and use that code CNF at checkout. That's 20% off anything you order when you shop better hydration today using promo code CNF at liquidiv.com.
00:00:43
Speaker
This episode is also sponsored by the word Oratund. Oratund is a formal word used as a synonym of sonorous to describe something, usually a voice, marked by fullness, strength, and clarity of sound. It can be used disapprovingly to mean pompous or bombastic. When the 3 a.m. Oratund voice wakes you up, it reminds you that the book you're writing will likely be your last.
Episode Theme and Podcast Introduction
00:01:12
Speaker
Maps and Buffets, that is the theme of today's episode. Reading a map while eating a buffet dinner.
00:01:25
Speaker
Oh hey CNFers, it's CNF Pod, that creative non-fiction podcast. The show where I speak to badass people about telling true stories, I'm Brendan O'Mara, whoopee. Hey, look at that, we got a new one.
Guest Introduction: Lana Hall
00:01:38
Speaker
Yeah, went deep sea fishing, found the wonderful Lana Hall. She's a writer and journalist based out of Toronto, Canada.
00:01:46
Speaker
and she is the author of several essays. Most recently, We Are All Animals At Night, written for Haslet. About her time in the massage parlor industry, it subverts what you might expect and plays off the quote, good job versus low skill jobs.
00:02:03
Speaker
and shows the tenderness and the unspoken bonds of those who work the night shifts, be it cab drivers, 7-11 clerks, janitors, or sex workers. It's a beautifully executed piece, so we dig into that and some other things, man.
00:02:20
Speaker
If you head over to BrendanOmero.com, you can read show notes to this episode and sign up for my monthly Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter, a curated list. I know that's basic, but whatever, it's a good curated list. An essay by your resident crank. Books, stuff to make you happy.
00:02:37
Speaker
It goes up to 11. Like literally, the list is 11 items long. First of the month, no spam, so far as I can tell. You can't beat it. I got off a sub-stack. I don't trust them. I'm hosting with Beehive. So anyway, that's something. Oh, and I started something cool for the patreon.com slash CNF pod crew.
00:02:59
Speaker
Any tier. I started these threads where I record a little video and then encourage everyone to talk amongst themselves. As Seth Godin might say, the podcast audience is about collecting dots and what I like about the Patreon crew is that it's about connecting dots. And I'm really digging the discussions and the support that's taking place over there.
00:03:22
Speaker
So if you go over there, you might want to drop a few bucks in the hat and you get access to that community as well as knowing that you're supporting the podcast because the show is free, but it sure as hell ain't cheap. Well, speaking of free, free ways to support the show or leaving kind reviews on Apple podcasts or ratings on Spotify. And we got a new one, a new written review.
00:03:44
Speaker
on Apple Podcasts, and anytime I get a new one, no matter what, no matter what the rating is, then they're almost always good. I read it, and there's another five-star one by NHCWIK.
00:03:58
Speaker
Love this podcast by SARS. One of the best writing interviewing podcasts out there on creative nonfiction writing and its authors. Brendan has a wonderful voice and personality. Hey, to listen to and his questions are thoughtful and relevant. He conducts his interviews in a manner that make them sound more like easygoing conversations. Brendan is funny. Aw. And real. Yes. And so are his guests.
00:04:26
Speaker
Conversations range from writing lifestyles and tactical advice to general discussions about the genre. Great listens all the time. Thanks, Brendan. And thank you, NHC-WIK.
00:04:39
Speaker
One last thing, my requisite shout out to Athletic Brewing, the best damn non-alcoholic beer out there. It's not a paid plug, but I am a brand ambassador and I love celebrating this amazing product and hope that you will experiment with it yourself. If you head to athleticbrewing.com and use the promo code BRENDANO20 at checkout, you get a nice little discount on your first order.
00:04:58
Speaker
I don't get any money and they are not an official sponsor of the podcast. I just get points towards swag and beer and that's it. I can redeem them. It's just like a skeeball raffle tickets, essentially. Give it a shot.
00:05:14
Speaker
Okay, so Lana Hall, her journalism and essays have been featured in the Globe and Mail, Hazlett, some word I can't pronounce, Spacing Magazine, and Catapult, and several literary magazines, as well as featured in Long Reads, top five long reads of the week series. That's where the Hazlett essay came from, and that's what we're talking about here. She's a nonfiction reader for Untethered magazine as well. Stay
00:05:44
Speaker
tuned for my parting shot on trying to enjoy things now, instead of being 10 years in the future and looking back and wishing I had enjoyed things more in the moment. There's more to say about that, but that's the crux of it. Okay, Lana is at Curious Lana on X. And you can learn more about her and her work at lanahallrights.com. And Lana Hall speaks right now.
Writing Challenges and Creative Processes
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, so yeah today today for one of those days to worry I'm struggling to get your momentum with a and I shouldn't because I'm on like a very tight deadline for a book I'm working on and it's just like today's one of those days where I'm having a hard time with momentum and getting momentum and
00:06:38
Speaker
Maybe for you, and we can dovetail this into our conversation. If you need to have a good day and you're struggling to get that momentum, how do you get on track when you're staring a deadline in the face and struggling to get that coveted momentum? That's a great question. In my day job, I am often writing to deadline.
00:07:05
Speaker
um a pretty short deadline and I think for that kind of writing it's it's really like a muscle right the more you do it the more you just get used to it but where I do sometimes struggle with that is when I'm doing like a longer form reported piece or like a a narrative essay so I sort of have two two tricks at my sleeve for that I mean I I do like to start with an outline even a rough one I feel like that sort of helps me
00:07:31
Speaker
Visualize the piece and then it's easier to just sort of slot the writing in where I need it to go But when I'm staring at a page and I'm just like struggling to get started or continue I try and write The part that I feel most excited to write and then it sort of just flows from there Another option also is to write the part that I think is going to be like the easiest or the more straightforward. Mm-hmm
00:07:54
Speaker
piece that might be like the nut graph, right? Because that's going to be pretty factual. So it's easy to kind of slot those sentences or those metrics or whatever into that piece. And then, you know, ideally, as you're just doing the literal act of writing, it sort of just flows from there.
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah, I've heard I've heard a term probably second or two or three times removed, but the idea being like you can write the the islands like you your the story itself could be linear in chronology, but you don't have to craft it that way.
00:08:28
Speaker
So you can write out of time. You can write something like you were saying, something that might be easier, maybe something you're more excited about. That might be further down the timeline, but at least you're creating something and then you can worry about the connective tissue later. Yeah, that's a great analogy. I like that.
00:08:45
Speaker
Like I have in the past written a piece completely backwards, I think. Like I have started at the bottom or at the end of a piece because it felt to me like the easiest part and then just sort of worked my way backwards from there. So it's true. It's a great reminder. Like you do not have to start at the beginning. You do not have to write in a linear fashion at all. You can write, you know, however you want, as long as you
00:09:09
Speaker
have those connective pieces of tissue connecting other pieces. It really doesn't matter what order you write them in, I don't think. Yeah, when I was talking recently with Bob Coker and then Susan Orlean a few times, and also Bob, they're very much of the mind, and so is John McPhee, though. I haven't spoken with him, that they really need to write the lead first.
00:09:34
Speaker
start right at point A and and that illuminates the rest of the piece and it kind of sets the stage, I guess. So it sounds like for you, it's like you don't necessarily have to go that that way because maybe that would stop you. And it certainly would me. Yeah, I remember I was listening to your interview with Bob and I do recall him saying that and I take his point, right? He was saying that once you have the lead down, you sort of have all the elements in place and you sort of
00:10:05
Speaker
I guess have a better understanding of how the story is going to unfold. But for me, I've never really found that. In fact, I seem to write my leads at the very end quite often. So yeah, it may just be like a matter of preference. But certainly, I've always found that if you have an outline to start with, you can still understand where those pieces are going to be. It's just a matter of which one you want to write first.
00:10:30
Speaker
Sometimes when I'm writing too, it helps. I like to, when possible.
00:10:38
Speaker
know the ending or write the ending as soon as I can and that might be very early or it might be very late but to me I sort of equate the ending once you can figure it out kind of like a lighthouse in the distance and then suddenly you're rowing your boat towards that thing and I wonder for you like the degree of thought you give to ending an essay, ending a piece of journalism, ending whatever.
00:11:05
Speaker
I think the sooner you can nail down an ending, the easier the piece does become to write, right? Because you then sort of have this thing that you're pushing everything towards. I mean, I think it also depends on the nature of the piece. Like when I'm working on a reported feature, you know, sort of the standard structure for that is like to begin with an anecdote and then sort of to end with a full circle moment where you're coming back to that person or that experience that you began with.
00:11:33
Speaker
So that's sort of a very natural ending that's sort of easy to visualize and the same even with like a shorter news piece. It's a little harder, I think, when you're writing like a personal essay or a narrative essay. And for me, sometimes I really don't know where they're going to end until close to the end. But I think that's also like the beauty of those pieces because you're sort of learning as you're writing, you're learning
00:12:02
Speaker
You're learning your own takeaway, I guess, as you move through the piece. Yeah, I love the sort of the discovery of writing when you're sitting down to write an essay or even if you're doing something of biography in nature, that's what I'm working on. And it's even through the writing,
00:12:24
Speaker
certain things are coming up that I never would have imagined and then that helps me backfill some of my follow-up reporting and everything but I would never know unless I was laying down road ahead of time and even writing before I'm ready and
00:12:39
Speaker
you know laying down that road before you're ready you start to see where the potholes are and you're like okay I didn't really see that coming and then you can kind of go back and kind of research those those those holes so I kind of like this the idea of you know you've kind of got this black blank map and you're like this cartographer of this sort of world that you're working in be it an essay or a book and you're discovering as you're going and then you can really start to keep beating the map metaphor you can really start to
00:13:07
Speaker
You know map out and chart the course that you're that you're that you're going and you would never know unless you started i guess is what i'm saying. Yeah that's that's a great point i love a good metaphor dangerous to be too prescriptive right because if you sit down and you have a sort of a beginning and an end in mind.
00:13:28
Speaker
And you're sort of married to that from the beginning. I mean, you could be missing out on some really cool opportunities to sort of learn as you go and explore other threads too. So, I mean, at least for myself, I caution myself about assuming I know too much about where a story is going.
Balancing Day Job and Writing
00:13:46
Speaker
Now, earlier you referred to a day job you had. What's the nature of your day job?
00:13:52
Speaker
So by day I am a senior reporter for a publication here in Toronto that covers the urban planning and municipal affairs sector. And how do you balance a day job that does take its own form of writing versus the other writing you do, be it personal essay and stuff of that nature that might be quote unquote more artistic if that makes sense.
00:14:20
Speaker
Um, yeah, that's a great question. And truthfully, like it is a challenge. I don't know that I've like quite nailed that balance down yet. Um, I don't know if anyone ever does. Um, great. I feel better about that, but you're right. I mean, there are sort of different kinds of writing, although I, I guess I feel like each of those skills sort of informs another skill. So it's, it's helpful, I guess, to be able to, um, to work to deadline, you know, to be able to ask my questions and a concise
00:14:50
Speaker
efficient manner. And then it's also helpful to be able to know how to use like, some more long form elements like, you know, dialogue and things like that for my shorter pieces as well. For me, I think it really comes down to like setting aside the time required for each of those things. So you know, I'm working on my reporting during the day. And then if I'm maybe working on a longer form piece in the evening or a narrative essay, I just sort of
00:15:18
Speaker
allow myself to have a break between those two things. And then I sort of settle down into my second shift, I guess, so to speak. But yeah, it is a challenge. But I mean, it's also something I love about the diversity of the writing craft, I guess, right? There are so many ways to write and report and tell stories. And so it's fun for me in a way to be able to use those different skill sets and experiment with different types of writing.
00:15:47
Speaker
A moment ago, you said asking questions in a tighter manner. In my opinion, a lot of people, especially in the podcast space, they're very verbose and don't really get to... They might be asking good questions, but they're bad askers of questions. For you, is that as interviewing in that manner? Is that a muscle you've cultivated over time, something you're very attuned to? Yeah, I think so.
00:16:16
Speaker
It's as much like a tactical skill as it is a frame of mind, too. You really have to go into those short interviews with the understanding that you are there to do a job. You don't necessarily, oh, this person, a friendly conversation. You have information to get. And you have to know what those questions are. And you have to be concise and direct about asking them. And that takes some
00:16:45
Speaker
confidence in some practice. But I think when you're writing to deadline, you also don't really have a choice. So definitely I've gotten better at that over the years. And then, you know, with a longer form piece, you sort of have more of a chance, I guess, to take a softer approach and sort of see where things go. Although I I also think no matter who you're interviewing, it is always critical to have a sense of what you need from this person. Right. It's it's not the same as just having a conversation with a friend. Right. You are there at the end of the day.
00:17:15
Speaker
to do a job and to get some level of information that you need, whether it's a direct quote or a visual or just an overall sense of the space that you're in.
00:17:32
Speaker
Yeah, it can be, sometimes the, it can be tough to wrestle the idea of like you view this person here and their larger story you might be trying to tell. Like they serve a certain role to that story and it's kind of a, it's like how do you be extractive of the information you need without being like exploitative of them?
00:17:55
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is. And it's hard not to feel that way sometimes, too, especially when you are in a hurry and you're like, well, I don't really have time for, you know, too many niceties here. Right. You brought up the Bob Coker interview and he we were kind of he and I were kind of talking about that. And he said like someone that he used to work with, you know, they were very almost clinical about trying to get interview for certain details like the you know, what the where the napkins cloth or paper.
00:18:22
Speaker
blah, blah, blah. I know, I imagine, I know that hit home with me. I'm like, oh, that's good, like to be that surgical with those kind of answers, because you really need those details. And I imagine that kind of resonated with you too, just, you know, sometimes you just need to get in and get out and know exactly what you need from a particular person.
00:18:40
Speaker
Yeah, that was a great anecdote from him. I was totally imagining this person at her desk being so specific about wanting to know the color of the wallpaper, how many people were in the jazz band, and all those specific questions, and then imagining somebody on the other end of the phone being like, why do you care what texture the napkins are? But those are the details that you sometimes need to make a piece, right? And I guess the other thing is,
00:19:07
Speaker
Even when you are asking those questions, you know, like you have to be concise and as you say, it's surgical, but I don't think that means you have to have to be like cold or, or unthinking, right? Like I've had to do interviews with people who've like, you know, lost loved ones to road violence or experienced natural disasters and things like that. And those are really hard conversations to have, but, um, and so you can do those, you know, with some level of,
00:19:38
Speaker
of empathy and care, as well as with the precision and the planning that you have to put in to ensure you're getting the information you need.
00:19:48
Speaker
Getting to the point of balancing day job and maybe something that might be more creatively fulfilling, let's say, a lot of people juggle the two things, and everyone has their practice. For you, what do you like to have in place that is unique to you so you can kind of prime the gears
00:20:12
Speaker
I grease the skids, if you will, to have a good day at the ledger when you're looking to, say, write an essay or something. That's a good question. I mean, I think for myself, if I'm writing a personal essay and I am trying to put myself in a different time and place, I try to have things around me that
00:20:37
Speaker
remind me of that time and place. So for example, I have playlists that I've devised that are like from a specific era of my life. And I'll sometimes take a little break just to listen to those and just sort of, you know, be grounded and like, and just take a moment to like, place myself at that time.
00:21:00
Speaker
That's been really helpful. I'll sometimes do a search using like Google archive images if I have to look at a certain street or a certain building or a certain neighborhood from a certain time period too. And then the other thing I do, this is so silly, but it occurs to me like when I'm trying to get another person to reconstruct something personal, I ask them like a series of questions. And so I sometimes just ask myself those questions too.
00:21:30
Speaker
And that sort of gets me thinking out loud or thinking internally about whatever it is that I'm writing about at that time. Yeah, and speaking of interviewing, to what extent do you do a lot of prep ahead of time versus having it be more conversational and you kind of just read where the conversation is going, an interview based on just what's coming up?
00:21:58
Speaker
Um, good question. I would say probably like, uh, maybe like a 70 30 split. So like 70%, I will do a lot of, um, planning in advance. I'll have my questions ready. I will, you know, if it's somebody who has things written about them or information available on the internet, um, I'll try and do that.
00:22:24
Speaker
kind of research upfront, just so I'm not asking them stupid questions that they could that I could easily find elsewhere, and then potentially frustrate them or frustrate them or feel like I'm, I'm wasting their time. Yeah. But like I said about, you know, leaving some flexibility for the ending of a story, again, I think it's dangerous to be too prescriptive about these things. So, you know, I do leave some time to maybe see where something's going, sometimes somebody
00:22:52
Speaker
answers me in a way that's surprising. And then, you know, I use that to go off on another tangent. The other thing I'm sure, you know, many of your guests have talked about this too, is like, at the very end of an interview, I'll sometimes say, you know, is there anything else about this issue or this experience that you'd like people to know that I haven't thought to ask you. And sometimes that brings out some really surprising sentiments as well.
00:23:18
Speaker
Now I understand you've got a MFA in Creative Nonfiction from University of King's
Pursuing an MFA in Creative Nonfiction
00:23:24
Speaker
College. And so what was the inspiration for you to do that? And maybe who were some of the writers that kind of inspired you to go down that path? Oh, interesting. Well, that's a bit of a long story. So we'll try and make it as concise as I can. But essentially, during the pandemic,
00:23:48
Speaker
Um, I had a lot of time to, um, think thanks to the lockdowns that we were in. Um, I had an office job at the time, so I, I still had a job which was fortunate, um, because many people did not, but I was working remotely. And so what that meant was that I didn't have to commute and I also didn't have to spend a lot of time making small talk in the office, which as an introvert, um, is really exhausting for me. And I guess I'd like maybe underestimated
00:24:18
Speaker
quite how exhausting that was because I would be working at home, I'd close my laptop at four or five in the evening, and I just had all this energy. And I was like, oh my God, I can do stuff. This is crazy. I have several hours left until I have to go to bed. I should do some stuff, which is something that I'd never really felt working in a corporate job. I was sort of like on the cycle of going to work and commuting home and then making dinner and then falling onto my couch and maybe watching
00:24:48
Speaker
an episode or two of something and then going to sleep. And so I thought to myself, great, what do I want to do? And for some reason, the thought came into my head was that I wanted to get better at writing personal and narrative essays, which is kind of at that point anyway, was like the only kind of writing I'd never really experimented with. So I took a fabulous course on
00:25:17
Speaker
Skillshare with the editor, Sari Botten, formerly of Long Rates. And then I just kind of started experimenting with different subjects and sort of braiding them into essays. So I did that. The first one I wrote was also about my time working in Toronto's massage parlor industry. And I sold it to a really small literary magazine based in the southern United States.
00:25:45
Speaker
And I was sort of just testing the waters to see how I felt writing in the style, how I felt having this information out there on the internet with my name attributed to it. And surprisingly, I felt fine about it. And so I started trying to work on a second one, and I was really struggling with it. And at some point, I realized the reason I was struggling with it was because I was trying to fit too much into a single essay.
00:26:13
Speaker
And I thought, I think I might actually have enough material in here if we look at all the themes that I'm somehow trying and failing to braid into like this one 2000-word piece. I think I probably have enough to write an entire book. And then completely fortuitously, I saw some kind of a call for applications for the King's MFA in creative nonfiction program. It's a low residency program.
00:26:39
Speaker
which are very, very common in the United States, lots of low residency MFAs down there. But I believe in Canada, there's only two of them, including the King's program. And so I thought to myself, maybe that is the kind of support and structure that I would need to write something that is book length, because I'd certainly never even attempted to write something book length before. And it was perfect timing, the applications,
00:27:09
Speaker
haven't closed. And of course, it was also like the pandemic. So I didn't really have a lot going on as most of us did not. And because of course, it was the low residency model, that meant that I could keep my full time job and, and do this on the side. So I had I went to like a, you know, like a sort of meet and greet intro session, I chatted with the program director, and he was very like receptive to, to my
00:27:39
Speaker
book idea and stuff and so I decided to apply. I am very aware of this like hot MFA discourse on social media where people feel very polarized about MFAs. Some people think that they're very helpful and you know more than anything else will help you get a book deal or will help you understand the elements of creative nonfiction and there are other people that think they're
00:28:03
Speaker
literally just a grift and that they are over-marketed and that nobody needs an MFA. I can't say that there was any one writer who had or didn't have an MFA that swayed me. I just felt for myself, it was too overwhelming to think about writing a book on my own. So that sort of seemed like the perfect happy medium to get that support and get that structure at a time when
00:28:31
Speaker
I didn't feel like I had the skills on my own to pull something off like that. A lot of people who I think listen to the show, they've either maybe earned an MFA or thought about an MFA. I mean, I have one myself. Some people, they might go into a program thinking that that's the kick in the pants they need. And then they might go in feeling the weight of imposter syndrome. And I wonder if that's something you experience going into it, feeling like, can I measure up? Am I up to this?
00:28:59
Speaker
Um, yeah, I really did at some points. Um, I think pretty quickly though, it became apparent that like everybody else also felt that way. Um, so, so that, you know, that took the pressure off a little bit. Um, and then there were like other areas that I did feel pretty confident in. Um, you know, like I, I probably had more like interviewing and reporting experience than some folks did. And so that was sort of a strength that I had that I could bring to the program. And then there were other writers who had.
00:29:30
Speaker
you know, stronger skill set than I did in maybe fiction writing or in reconstructing and things like that. So, um, it was, it was a nice mix of students. And I think it was just, you know, the opportunity to be in those circles where everyone is sort of sharing the same insecurities, you know, it's easier to, to deal with when you're in, in good company like that, I think.
00:29:54
Speaker
As a writer, or even researcher, journalist, where do your insecurities lie in the milieu of this morass we're all in? I mean, I look at people like Bob Kolker and other journalists that just have these long story careers, a lot of staying power, a lot of longevity.
00:30:21
Speaker
you know, and for me, I mean, I've been freelancing sort of on and off for about a decade. And I sometimes do wonder, like, do I have what it takes to, to be consistent in a career like this, right? I mean, I know the joke is like, you're only as good as the last thing you wrote. And I sometimes feel that pressure, like, you know, will I be able to stay in a career doing this kind of stuff for 20 or 30 years or longer? Um,
00:30:49
Speaker
But that's one of those things, I guess, time will just tell. Yeah, and then all of a sudden, if you stick to it long enough, then you look behind yourself. You're like, oh, wow, there's a body of work back there. That in and of itself can be validating and can kind of put fuel in your tank and be like, oh, because when you're just sinking into sometimes the horrible present,
00:31:17
Speaker
You kind of forget that, you know, back back there. It's like, oh, wow, there's a whole string of essays that just kind of came together and other other forms of work. You're like, OK, like I've done it before. I can do it again and sustain this maybe into the future. And it's true what they say also about like, you know, if you look back at your life, like five or 10 years ago,
00:31:40
Speaker
you are probably in a position now that you would have envied back then, right? So I think it's also important to like celebrate progress too, no matter how incremental it might sometimes seem.
Writing About the Sex Work Industry
00:31:53
Speaker
Yeah, do you find yourself, like present day, say you're working on something, and you're like, you have to remind yourself, or do you have to remind yourself to maybe try to enjoy it and have a little fun with it in the moment, even if it kind of sucks? Do you ever find yourself having that conversation with yourself? Yeah, I do. And this is so silly, but I have that conversation with myself so much that I even
00:32:21
Speaker
devise this little like cartoon dog that sits on my desk and he has a little speech bubble coming over his head and he said this is supposed to be fun and I call him my deadline dog and so I pull it out whenever I'm stressed out and I'm on deadline and then I just look at it and I'm like remember this is fun like this is what you love doing. I love it. What breed is deadline dog?
00:32:49
Speaker
I don't know. I think he's sort of an indeterminate heritage. It's a sticker. So he's brown. He has light and dark brown spots and kind of floppy ears. I'm thinking probably like a terrier mix of some kind. Okay. So kind of a mongrel. Exactly.
00:33:10
Speaker
So when you start to sit down to write personal essays, specifically the piece for Hazlett, which talks about sex worker industry and your experience in the massage parlors, when you're sitting down to write that, what is...
00:33:30
Speaker
you know, what is going through your mind to be like, okay, I have this experience, I want to convey this, but it is going to be it's going to be raw, it's going to be at times probably very hard to write. So how do you kind of do the mental gymnastics to to sit down and sit with it? Well, that is a great question. Again, I think some of those sort of
00:33:55
Speaker
practices that I have like listening to a playlist looking at Google images and stuff kind of doing those things to To make myself feel comfortable in that time period are helpful too and also so has just the passage of time like it's you know, it's it's been a it's been almost it's a decade since I worked in that business and and over time I've sort of become a little bit not detached from it, but like
00:34:21
Speaker
I can hold it separate enough from myself that I feel okay about being back in that space and sharing that experience with people. But I also think like overwhelmingly what I love to do as a writer is to build worlds for people and to allow them entry into a world that they might not otherwise get a chance to be in, right?
00:34:48
Speaker
how often have people walked past some weird little strip mall late at night, right? Like the strip mall I'm talking about in Haslet is in the Keel and Finch neighborhood here in North Toronto. But these places, these little strip malls are all over North America. And how often do people walk past them or drive past them and like truly think about the complex inner lives of the fry cooks or the janitors or like the clerk at 7-11, right? Like probably not a lot, but I,
00:35:16
Speaker
want people to be curious and wonder about those things and wonder about those people's lives. And so I love to build those worlds for people and sort of bring them into these spaces. For me, that's like a real privilege and a delight as a writer. And I think that my desire to do that supersedes any kind of anxiety or nervousness I have about writing about it.
00:35:42
Speaker
Right. It's almost like you can view yourself. It's almost not like yourself. You view yourself as a kind of character in a different world from a different time. So you're getting that detachment that you're referring to. Exactly. Exactly.
00:35:56
Speaker
I also love in the piece how there's kind of just like this unspoken understanding between like you know you and the cab drivers or the clerk at the convenience store and you know at the in those we in the witching hours and everyone is just kind of like
00:36:12
Speaker
just kind of nods at each other. Everyone just kind of knows there's like the, you know, we're kind of, you know, we're these, you know, laborers working, you know, under the moon. And it was, and I just kind of liked that, the camaraderie among different industries that you convey in the piece. I'm glad to hear you say that because I think that's really true. That's probably the singular thing that I miss about working
00:36:41
Speaker
night shifts or even just working in that particular neighborhood, there was this kind of unspoken understanding of what we were doing there and the circumstances we were laboring under. And so even without really saying anything to each other, I just felt like we were all forced into this community together and we were making the best of it. And it's not a sentiment or a sensation I've really felt
00:37:09
Speaker
since starting like an office job or I think as I call it in the piece, like a daytime job or whatever.
00:37:16
Speaker
Right, yeah, and it's like, yeah, I forget exactly how you worded it too, but it was like, here was this sort of like, this above ground, like, you know, work that you would, I don't know, that is more celebrated, socially acceptable, whatever you want to call it. And like, and yet that was more almost lonely and scurrying and,
00:37:42
Speaker
fractured in some ways. And then there are other moments that are far more tender in these quote unquote other jobs that we're not supposed to like, we're not supposed to talk about, we're supposed to whisper about that. And that's where like you found like more true bonding. Yeah, it's really true. I felt like the interactions between my coworkers and I were a lot more genuine in those places. I don't really know what to attribute that to.
00:38:08
Speaker
Um, whether it was just like, there was no point in putting on errors because we sort of all knew, you know, why we were there and, and what was going on. I don't know whether we were all just too tired to put on errors because it was two in the morning, um, or, or what have you, but like, I was really struck by that. And I, I still think about that quite a lot, even, even now, and I've been out of that business for such a long time.
00:38:32
Speaker
I think when you work in, you know, whatever you want to call it, a day job, a corporate job, an office job, I think there's sort of an understanding that like everybody is kind of there to do, you know, to put in their hours and then they're all going home to, you know, like a family or a partner or to do other things after work. And so there isn't that same drive maybe to, to make friends or to form those connections like on that level. But I think,
00:39:01
Speaker
in the massage parlor industry and probably in sex work generally because it is such an isolated line of work. There are so many people who do that and are afraid to tell people about it. I think that we have less, less supportive and maybe less, you know, like complex external lives. And so that in turn sort of like breeds this really strong community
00:39:28
Speaker
among the people you're working with at the parlor or at the strip club or what have you. My favorite scene in the entire essay was where the woman Cheryl works on your hair. I found that to be one of the most touching scenes or one of the more touching scenes I've ever read. It's so short, but it's so it's so tender and powerful. Oh, that's so lovely. I'm glad to hear you say that. But you know what? It's funny that that scene was like a really late
00:39:57
Speaker
addition to the essay. It definitely did not appear in the first draft, maybe not even in the second draft. But honestly, I have to credit after my Haslet editor, who was fantastic. She was like, I think we need one more scene to really drive home like this contrast between what my life was like in the corporate world and what my life was like working night shifts in this weird, isolated strip mall. And so I was sort of like rifling through my mental
00:40:27
Speaker
Rolodex, trying to find, kind of think of a scene that IA had a really clear recollection of and that really, really illustrated something else I love about the community, which is like, I felt like the kind of support people would provide to you was very pragmatic and very useful. You know, so like doing my hair because I was too tired to, where I feel like, you know, in many jobs,
00:40:58
Speaker
The kind of support people will offer you is pretty shallow and pretty vapid. But here, there's this entire community of women who are happy to do your hair, do your makeup for you, get you food, teach you how to maximize your tax returns. I don't know. But it was just so supportive, but just also so
00:41:23
Speaker
practical, but also as you say, you know, like really touching too. So I was, I was trying with that scene to find a scene that represented both of those things. So it almost didn't make it into the essay. So that is a fun fact.
00:41:38
Speaker
Yeah, you really feel the weight of the day. It's the end of your shift that day. You have something on the books and it's just like you can feel the burden of your fatigue. Cheryl here, she really cares for you in that moment and to the point where you write, I felt so much care in that moment, I could barely breathe.
00:42:03
Speaker
You feel so much in just so few sentences that it's really charged with that sort of sisterhood that you had. Yeah, I agree. And honestly, I think what we were talking about earlier about different kinds of writing and different kinds of journalism and how to balance all those, I think some of those short scenes, I was really relying heavily
00:42:32
Speaker
on some of my, like, concise news reporting language, right? Because I don't think these scenes need to be drawn out. I think with, you know, just the right sort of judicious use of language, just maybe one or two really strong visuals, I think we can still convey, you know, really moving themes and experiences, you know, by being
00:42:57
Speaker
really careful with the details that we incorporate, not so much the quantity, but the quality of those details. Yeah. I mean, I'm all about details, but not just details, like the right details. And I think that's, you know, that's just something you learn with time and with experience as a writer.
Complex Narratives and Marginalized Voices
00:43:16
Speaker
Yeah, you're right in the catapult essay too. You sort of pose a few questions, but then you're right that I've made a kind of melancholic piece with the reality of unanswered questions. And I just wonder for you, how did you, as a journalist too, it can be hard to deal with unanswered questions. So how did you arrive at that headspace? That's a great question, probably like by force.
00:43:42
Speaker
I don't know. I'm not really a religious or a spiritual person even, but I do think there is an element as an artist of relinquishing some things to the universe or whatever you might want to substitute that term for. There are always unanswered questions. There are questions that you didn't get a chance to ask, and there's just no possible way we can know all the things, even though as journalists, I think we want to.
00:44:11
Speaker
Honestly, I think part of that is just having faith that you know what's important. But there are important things that you also won't know. Right. Yeah. And I think that's where doing this more
00:44:29
Speaker
sort of, I don't know, like ethereal, even artistic writing. So sometimes answering the questions would be far more, I don't know, it just wouldn't be as satiating as continually posing to ask them and then meditating in them and letting them be unanswered or letting the reader answer for themselves. And you're just laying out the buffet for people to choose from. Weird metaphor, but yeah.
00:44:55
Speaker
No, I love a good buffet metaphor, too. Maps and buffets, yes. Maps and buffets, that is the theme of today's episode. Reading a map while eating a buffet dinner. Yep. We're going to say, oh, yeah, just, I mean, I really prefer essays, I think, that do not, you know, tie things up neatly for me in the end, because to me, that is in no way representative of, like, anybody's life.
00:45:23
Speaker
You know, like we always have unanswered questions about things when we go through an experience. And I think a writer that's honest about that, I trust them more personally. And I also, you know, I find those essays to be moving and contemplative and they make me question things about my life too.
00:45:42
Speaker
I think hearing you speak just then about a writer handling the more contemplative things. I'm thinking if a musician is working on something and they want to be inspired, they might pull a record CD or Spotify playlist, whatever.
00:46:02
Speaker
to try to stoke that fire with their taste. And as a writer, are there essayists or essays that you similarly pull down from the shelf? You're like, this is the kind of juice I need right now. Not to plagiarize, but to be inspired by. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think one of the first essayists whose work I read that sort of encouraged me to explore
00:46:31
Speaker
My own history with working massage parlors are those of Natasha Shield. Natasha is a PhD student and a writing instructor based in Florida right now. And so she was a stripper for a long time. She danced in New York, I believe in Portland, and also in Guam. And so around the beginning of the pandemic, I stumbled across her work and she has written
00:46:57
Speaker
two absolutely astonishing pieces for long reads. And I really think it was like her, her influence that made me want to write about this too, because her work is just so, it's so gorgeous and layered. And you know, like, prior to that, I'd seen writing about sex work, but I just felt like it was really trading on this like simplistic
00:47:26
Speaker
storyline, like either like a victim or yeah, like a redemption arc. And that sort of that was the whole appeal. It just like, oh, I'm writing about sex work. Isn't that scandalous? Ha, ha, ha. Yeah. Salacious. Yeah, exactly. Totally salacious, raunchy, whatever like adjective you want to insert there. But her work really, you know, it really anchored you in time and place. But at the same time, like. That was just one element.
00:47:53
Speaker
of the story. She was exploring all these other, you know, moving themes just through the lens of her work as a dancer. And I remember reading both of those pieces and just being absolutely shocked and astonished that this was something you could do. And Natasha was really lovely, actually. I reached out to her around the time I was writing my first essay and asked her if she would be open to like a
00:48:20
Speaker
Zoom called to chat about it, and so we had a little chat, and she was really supportive and fantastic. So I do rely on her work a lot. Another book that I like to read sometimes, even if it's just a few pages here and there, is actually a Canadian book. It's called Eating Dirt, and it is by author Charlotte Gill. And it is actually about being a tree planter in rural Canada.
00:48:50
Speaker
a job that I like totally never thought about in my life, really, I'd never thought about like the complex inner life of a tree planter or the logistics of how it works and what the days are like when you're doing that job up in the isolated forests of northern Canada. But her book is, it's just beautifully raw, like every line in it is a work of art. Again, she's also sort of very judicious with her language, but
00:49:18
Speaker
you know, her details are just perfect. And the way she sort of plants you in time and space is incredible. And then she brings in, you know, sort of some themes as well about like science and the environment, but she does it in a very seamless way. So it almost reads like fiction. And what I love about it is that it is a portrait of a really interesting job, again, a job that probably a lot of people do not think about.
00:49:46
Speaker
But she's really just using that job as like a lens to connect with larger themes about the world. And so whenever I need some inspiration, either at a sentence level or just on how the jobs that we hold kind of shape the way we view the world, I pull that book out as well.
00:50:07
Speaker
was part of the appeal about writing about sex workers and that subculture to write beyond the challenge of writing beyond the stigma, but also trying to write beyond what a lot of people might be like, oh, this is going to be like you were saying, like raunchy or salacious.
00:50:29
Speaker
you're like, okay, this is kind of the hook, but I'm really, I'm at something far more subconscious, far deeper, and that's the challenge to write to that level.
00:50:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's what I always aspire to do. I mean, I obviously can't control how people perceive that writing, but, you know, I don't see that a lot. There are some fantastic authors out there, you know, Natasha, Melissa Phoebus, Lily Barana, who wrote Strip City, who have done that, but it just feels so far and few between. And I think all writing about sex work, like, can stand on its own as good literature. Right. You know, we don't read books about, like,
00:51:15
Speaker
I don't know, literally any other job, nursing, medicine, science, being a truck driver, we don't read those, and then just think like, that's the whole, that's the whole thing, right? Like, we allow every other line of work, basically, to sort of connect
00:51:36
Speaker
to larger themes. And it just feels like with sex work, people are so stuck in this simplistic narrative about it. And so I really wanted to subvert that. And as I said earlier, I also really wanted to build a world and bring people into it because I think a lot of people have never considered what those spaces are like. They've never considered the people who move through them. And they've never considered, or if they have, they certainly haven't considered it
00:52:05
Speaker
with any level of nuance. And so that is sort of what I wanted to bring to the world.
00:52:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, you tie it into the people in food service or retail or cab drivers. A lot of things that maybe people of a certain upper certain echelon might dehumanize or just call are largely faceless. And I think that's the undercurrent of the of the whole thing is showing the the humanity among the dehumanized. Mm hmm. I mean, I think you're right. I think there's a lot of power in
00:52:41
Speaker
sharing those stories, as writers and journalists, that is the power we have. I don't have any ability to influence policy, for example. I can't pass laws that are going to make these people's lives less precarious or less unjust. But what I can do is tell stories about those people and encourage
00:53:08
Speaker
people to be like curious about their lives, you know, and to understand some of their experiences. And then, you know, hopefully there is a trickle down effect that happens where once the stories are more in the mainstream, they just become more seen and they become represented when we do, you know, think about things like policy and like laws and other sorts of narratives like that.
00:53:34
Speaker
And I love the final paragraph of the essay, too, where you write, too. I woke recently at exactly 2 a.m., as I often do, pulled from slumber by some unable-able cue. And you go on, of course. And in that moment, is it kind of like when you wake up there, is it
00:53:56
Speaker
Is it waking of habit is there a is it charged with a lack of a bit kind of like a ptsd but they are is it just like oh this is a habit of a previous time or previous lifetime. I still do that to be honest and it's so strange that like it's always.
00:54:15
Speaker
specifically at two in the morning. I mean, I don't wake up like in a panic or a sweat or anything. I just sort of look up, I look at my phone and I'm like, oh, that's weird. It's two in the morning. And then I, you know, I go and get a glass of water or whatever, like walk around my apartment and then I'm sort of just back to sleep again, almost as though it didn't happen. But it does feel like there is something, maybe just like a learned habit that's like now ingrained in my, my body chemistry. Right.
00:54:43
Speaker
Yeah, I love the final sentence too. At the beginning of our conversation, we were talking about the endings and maybe the thought you put into endings and how you arrive at endings. And I love the whole little snippet here of you just waking up, walking around your apartment, watching the cars drive away and pull out of sight, drinking the water.
00:55:00
Speaker
And you write, you know, but I know the stories of the city after dark and I keep those with me always. And I really love that has just such a nice sort of ring to it. And, you know, for you, like, just when you're grinding on an ending, you know, how did this one come to you and, you know, how much thought are you putting into it? You know what, I think I was really lucky with that one. I think it sort of just came to me, like, again, at the end, once the bulk of this piece had been written.
00:55:29
Speaker
But it was also just an image that had been stuck with me because I do sometimes look out my window and I have this very specific view where I can see the expressway and the lights of the businesses that are actually open at that point. So honestly, I don't know that I had to work very hard for that. It just came into my head. But I think because I'd already done so much work on this essay to place myself back at that time and to reconstruct some of these memories.
00:55:59
Speaker
It was all just coming together at that point. That's not a very helpful answer in terms of tactical approaches. I'm sorry in advance. Oh, no, no. That's fine. It's funny. In the earlier run of the podcast, I think I was seduced by tactical things and listeners would want to have those kind of things.
00:56:17
Speaker
their disposal and that I wanted at my disposal but I think I've gotten a far far more away from that in recent in the last few years mainly because it's it doesn't matter so I like hearing how people do it and how other people's practices are and and it's all well and good but I sometimes I feel like people
00:56:40
Speaker
It's like the Stephen King's pencil thing. They're like, oh, if I just asked Stephen King what pencil he uses, I'm gonna, okay, I use that pencil. I'm gonna be as good as Stephen King. And it's just another way of hiding instead of doing the work. And so that's why I kind of always got away from tactical things like this is how you do it.
00:56:56
Speaker
As intrigued as I am about individual idiosyncrasies and stuff of that nature, it's also just kind of, in the end is sort of banal and uninteresting. Like how, you know, what tools and tactics people use. Like all that matters is the feeling that you're able to evoke and maybe we can get to that point. But how we get there is inconsequential and very individualistic.
00:57:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really good instinct, Brendan, because, you know, not only does different things work for different writers, but also, even for one writer, different things work for different pieces. Right? So when I'm writing a piece on Deadline, I don't have the luxury of just like sitting there and being like, Oh, I hope a great ending just like comes into my head like magic, right? I've got to work that muscle. You know, but for a longer piece, sometimes those things do happen. So
00:57:55
Speaker
Yeah, I'm a big believer in sort of changing your approach as it's needed and welcoming the ending fairies, I guess, when they feel like visiting you. Well, there it is, Lana. As I bring these conversations down for a landing, I always love to ask the guests, to you in this case, for a recommendation of some kind. It can just be like anything you're excited about that you want to share with the listeners.
00:58:22
Speaker
Yeah, you know what I'm still I don't think I'm still quite over is This essay that was in the New Yorker I think in early September. It's called listening to Taylor Swift in prison and it's by Joe Garcia Who is a very talented journalist he's affiliated with something called the prison journalism project which is an initiative that helps
00:58:47
Speaker
incarcerated folks get bylines. And this is just such a fantastic essay. It's about, well, as you might imagine, it's about listening to Taylor Swift in prison, where Jojo is currently incarcerated. And it's such a surprising piece, like just because of the the contrasts that he introduces. But it's also such a like lovely and ruminative piece about the things that connect us to the outside world when
00:59:16
Speaker
you know, when those connections are like far and few between. I really loved it. And there's just some absolutely killer lines in it. I don't want to give any spoilers. But if you're looking for like a read that, you know, might entertain you on the subway or on your commute, I would really recommend taking a read. It's so lovely.
00:59:37
Speaker
Oh, fantastic. Well, this is so great to get to talk to you and pick your brain and kind of analyze the work you've been doing lately, Lana. So yeah, thank you so much for carving out the time to come on the show. And yeah, this is wonderful. Thank you so much. Oh, this is great. Thank you. I'm really happy you invited me here.
00:59:58
Speaker
Thanks to Lana for coming on the show, giving us a new pod this week instead of a paperback edition. Next week will likely be a paperback edition. I think I'm thinking possibly Jericho Brown, but I might change that up, might save that rerun for a different one. Anyway, it doesn't matter. Great chatting with her. She's working on a memoir and maybe we'll hear more from her in the future. I guarantee it.
01:00:25
Speaker
So looking back like countless times, like I wish I'd enjoyed that time more in the moment. Yeah, be a baseball college. Like I look back at 20 some odd years ago and I wish I enjoyed playing baseball when I was at the height of my powers, when I was actually good.
01:00:47
Speaker
or I wish I had leaned into the college experience more, not the excessive drinking part, of which I might attribute the end of my baseball career to. I mean, there's also the I wasn't good enough angle, but something to consider.
01:01:05
Speaker
But everything else that was at my fingertips, like even friendships and the like. Part of this is looking at the past with those rose-colored glasses, feeling nostalgic and wishing you could live that life over again. If not replay, then maybe restart. What we're talking about is regret.
01:01:25
Speaker
I can already see this feeling coming right now, like with the book I'm writing. And this is the whole point of it. It's hard, it's hard, it's difficult, and I'm in constant worry and fear of missing the deadline, of not reaching the depth and nuance and new material. And I'm in constant worry that it will read just like another regurgitation of what's already been said.
01:01:50
Speaker
amidst all the fretting, amidst all the complaining about not having enough time, I'm thereby wasting the time I have.
01:02:00
Speaker
I can see myself in two to three years saying like, you know, I wished I enjoyed it more because my gosh, what an amazing topic. I got to tell. I got the book deal. I got the great publisher. I was the leader. I thought about it before anybody else. I got to talk to all these amazing people, some famous, some you've never heard of, some who have never spoken. And it's the non-famous people who have never spoken who have some of the best stories. Why didn't I enjoy it more?
01:02:31
Speaker
Fact is, right now, recognizing this while there's still time, seven months to the day, CNF-ers, that I can still stack merely good day after good day together and remind myself
01:02:45
Speaker
to enjoy the process. I know it's so kind of like banal to say, enjoy the moment, be in the moment, enjoy the process. It's about the journey, not the destination man. Take a beat and sink into the experience because this is a singular experience, a singular moment that will never happen again.
01:03:06
Speaker
I can see myself in 10 years saying, like, damn, I wish I appreciated it more, like, when it was happening, now that it's all said and done. You know, jeez, why didn't you just enjoy it a little more? Thing is, if the book doesn't sell because I failed or because maybe someone better and more famous also comes out with a book, or maybe it's just, maybe in two years, people are like,
01:03:32
Speaker
I'm not spending, I can't spend $35 on a book. Presumably that's how much the book's gonna cost in two years for hardcover. My God, 35 bucks. It's like your Netflix and your Disney Plus. It's maybe, depending on who you are, maybe it's a quarter of your grocery budget. I don't know.
01:03:52
Speaker
So maybe it won't sell because of that. It might be my final chance to write a book of this scale. Authors get ditched all the time if they don't sell well on their first book. And for all intents, this is my first book. If it flops, I'll have that scarlet F on my chest. And I'll likely be ditched by my agent and publisher, and I'll sink to the bottom of the dead marshes.
01:04:16
Speaker
All this is to say, I'm trying to enjoy it now while I still have seven months. And then, of course, there's going to be the the rewrites and the massive editing overhaul that I foresee in 2024.
01:04:30
Speaker
And just realizing how spectacularly lucky I am to have this opportunity to write about such an iconic and singular figure in American athletics. I mean, what a gift. And yeah, it's difficult. It's hard. Not everyone will cooperate. And I'm not the best writer. I'm far from the best reporter. Far, far from the best writer. Let me reiterate that part. I've been told that any number of times.
01:04:57
Speaker
I'm not Jane Levy, I'm not Jeff Perlman, I'm not Howard Bryant, I'm not David Marinus, I'm not Larry Tai, I'm not Walter Isaacson, I'm not Jonathan Eig, I'm not Doris Kearns Goodwin, I'm not Bryn Jonathan Butler, Glenn Stout, Laura Hillenbrand, or Dave Eggers.
01:05:12
Speaker
But to quote the philosopher Popeye, I am's what I am's. And for fuck's sake, do your future self a favor, enjoy the moment now, and save yourself the regret. So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do, interview. See ya.
01:05:47
Speaker
you