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Design, Dissent, and Education with Susanna Shaul #36
53 Plays2 months ago
On Power Beyond Pride, Melodie KG and Shane Lukas welcome Susanna Shaul, a NYC-based art director and designer with deep roots in immigrant advocacy and LGBTQ+ community support. Susanna describes how queer and immigrant justice work often runs on parallel tracks, even though many asylum seekers are fleeing anti-LGBTQ+ persecution. She shares sobering examples of how fear is shaping community life—from immigrants being discouraged from attending Pride for safety reasons, to ICE showing up at a Queens high school.
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Transcript
Teaching Design Thinking and Empathy
00:00:00
Speaker
For me personally, it's a matter of equity. It needs to be taught to everyone design thinking. They don't need to come out graphic designers. We don't need everybody to come out of this program and this is their future career in life.
00:00:12
Speaker
But speaking of empathy, what is the first pillar of design thinking of human-centered design? It's empathy. So that's how I feel I can truly again contribute to the next generation.
00:00:26
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Power Beyond Pride, a weekly queer change-making podcast bringing you voices and ideas from across our fierce and fabulous spectrum to transform our world.
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm Melody KG, your Minneapolis-based queer provocateur. and I'm Shane Lucas, he, him, his. i am one of a great idea, a very big peanut butter, jelly, American cheese, sweet pickle sandwich enthusiast.
00:00:57
Speaker
much to the chagrin of those around me. And we are your co-hosts on today's QueerCast journey.
Introduction of Susannah Schall
00:01:03
Speaker
In this episode, we are talking to the phenomenal Susannah Schall, art director, brand designer, and artist from metropolitan area of New York.
00:01:11
Speaker
Welcome, Susannah. Thank you. be here. Glad to be here. I'm excited about this. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to get to know you.
00:01:22
Speaker
do you want to just start with a little intro of who you are, what you're doing, what you're feeling? How are things going for you? Yeah. but am I started at the beginning, I guess, born in Odessa, Ukraine, came to America almost 40 years ago, quite a while. I'm an art director and designer here in New York City. i've Been doing this for the last 25 years.
00:01:47
Speaker
with a pretty diverse kind of client base, but public-private sector, but also focused on work with, what are mission-based work, volunteer work with immigrants, asylum seekers, and in the queer community, in the LGBTQ community. So...
00:02:04
Speaker
I think that's Schwartz's way of saying that. Yeah.
Challenges for Queer Immigrants and Asylum Seekers
00:02:07
Speaker
I mean, again, I think it's really powerful, especially in this moment where we're talking about immigrant and refugee communities. Do you feel like it's a conversation happening in the queer sector? Do you feel like it's happening among queer professionals talking about their investment within the conversation around the xenophobia and the things that are going on around anti-immigrant sentiment?
00:02:26
Speaker
I think that the conversations are actually really siloed and understandably so where we all kind of deal with issues that are very personal to ourselves. So the queer community has a lot of its own issues that it's dealing with, especially right now with transphobia, with the current administration. And ah and the asylum seeking, the refugees, the migrants, whatever language we're using today is a whole separate conversation.
00:02:53
Speaker
i really haven't seen any overlap, even though a lot of the asylum seekers are seeking asylum due to being part of the LGBTQ communities from wherever they come from. And unfortunately, there are organizations that deal with it, but there isn't a wider conversation around it.
00:03:14
Speaker
That's so interesting, especially because i think so. I come from mostly sex worker rights organizing. And in in that realm, we talk about migrant justice all the time, especially as it intersects with with trans and LGBTQ folks. And in this moment, we are seeing Some folks pull away from conversations because of safety reasons, right? They're scared of lifting their voices in certain ways or being extra public about their stances.
00:03:49
Speaker
How do you feel being both a queer person and an immigrant in this moment? like Are you feeling safe? Are you feeling worried? do you how are How is that living in in your body and in your work?
00:04:03
Speaker
One of the organizations that I work with puts on a pride parade every year. Unfortunately, I couldn't be there this year, but they specifically were asking a lot of the people in this organization are immigrants, asylum seekers of various...
00:04:20
Speaker
levels of documentation, and they were specifically told not to come to this parade due to safety concerns. So that's incredibly sad.
00:04:31
Speaker
It's the first time that this has happened since the beginning of this organization. And it happens to be almost 20 years old. It was started because There were no queer spaces for us in our community. So it's and it's really wasn't as one of the only ones where we can speak our own language and have our own culture. And this was the first year that they told them not to come because you can't have that many people in one space and with true concerns for their safety.
00:05:05
Speaker
Am I concerned for my safety? I want to say I'm not because I'm a citizen. i've been here for so many years. But I think in the back of my head, I really am.
00:05:16
Speaker
Because I don't believe that things that are happening are, of quote unquote, by the books as they should be. So... I think that i really don't want to be too outspoken today. Not today, but I mean today in our current climate.
00:05:34
Speaker
I don't want to my name to be too out there, one. But also, i'm more concerned for these folks that are here on in Russian, we call them birthrights.
00:05:49
Speaker
meaning they they're so delicate and so fragile, these rights that they're here on. And they're even more fragile with the current administration.
Community Support and Activism
00:06:00
Speaker
So overall anxiety for everybody around.
00:06:03
Speaker
Thank you for sharing that. And that's incredibly powerful. In hearing that, I'm curious what your thoughts are on how others can step up, right? So as you talked about, there are community members for whom speaking up is a risk. like There's a different set of vulnerabilities that are present. But there's so many queer community members for whom i would say they don't perceive themselves at that level of risk. Again, we're not talking, we understand that trans rights are under attack. We understand many communities are under attack. a lot of queer community members are not feeling those attacks.
00:06:33
Speaker
any Are there ways that they can step up into this conversation? Are there ways, are there things that you see could be done that people just might not be aware of that they can step into to to use the power they have yeah to have an impact?
00:06:48
Speaker
In this particular instance, what we did was we called people... individually. And there's there's ah it's a triangle, not muscle triangle, but there's a different triangle here where there are people who are the safest at the top. They're American born, they're white, they're male.
00:07:04
Speaker
They're the safest. So whoever I knew that fit there, we would i would call them and I would say, hey, can you please come to the Sprite parade? We just need people there. We don't want nobody showing up. We don't want it empty. We don't we want to show that people are coming, but we also want to fill it with people who are not interested.
00:07:22
Speaker
OK, so those are the people. So if you're at the top of that triangle and you're the safest and you feel the most confident, show up, be there as a body, be there as a presence, be there as a visible presence. Right.
00:07:34
Speaker
And then we know how that triangle goes down, white women and immigrants and people of color and so on and so forth. I don't want to put anybody in or ask anybody to go out and be unsafe.
00:07:47
Speaker
Not in today's day and age, because i don't know what safety even means with everything that's happening. So small tangent. I live in Queens. It's the most diverse place in the country, I think.
00:08:00
Speaker
My son goes to high school, ninth grade freshman. He had ice at his school. He ice show up questioning the kids. My kids are kids of but are brown kids. They're mixed. So they're I have concerns. ah Yeah, they're born here. i know they're born here, but...
00:08:17
Speaker
They don't have American names. They don't have American last names. to They're not as light-skinned as I am. They're not. i'm ICE is showing up to the high school stand on the outside. So is that legal? No, I know it's not.
00:08:28
Speaker
I mean, there i look next to, we had a heart sensor down block for me. ICE was here all the time. Wow. I'm concerned for everybody around us. So in terms of how can people stand up, that's the only way I really can think of. But I also don't want to put it on anybody to be in an unsafe position. Because if you're putting yourself at risk today, you won't be there tomorrow to help us out.
00:08:56
Speaker
who So... I guess I hear that, but I also feel like a lot of people have taken a step back since the marriage movement from so much of this work.
00:09:07
Speaker
And so I guess I feel like people have a false sense of confidence about their position, their role, who they are, right? Like, obviously, we've all seen the memes coming out and looking at parallels to the Holocaust and other...
00:09:22
Speaker
obviously very horrendous historical experiences. And we could talk, you coming from Ukraine, like looking at what Russia has done historically to the Jewish communities, looking at all of these different travesties that have happened over time.
00:09:36
Speaker
I think people absolve themselves of the seriousness or the idea of the security that their queerness is somehow protected somewhere when there really isn't a protection. So I guess I feel like i don't want to encourage people to put themselves in harm's way. That's not the intention. But I think society is putting...
00:09:54
Speaker
putting harm and has historically put harm in many people's ways. And there has to be a way to encourage other communities to step into that conversation. And I do hope that people think about what that might mean for them. There's different ways to dissent and there are ways to dissent private and public and ways to do it. So I certainly want to keep people in it, um but I definitely appreciate your desire. it And some of that desire I think comes from you yeah I mean, again, it feels like I get this vibe about you really like having a community around you and thinking about the well-being of others around you.
00:10:26
Speaker
Can you share a little bit about your journey as a queer person and kind of kind of what that has been and kind of helps inform the way that you think about others, the way that your empathy is itself informed? I think that coming from...
00:10:40
Speaker
a culture again where queerness didn't exist and let me explain what I mean by that obviously it existed it always existed it didn't exist in the sense where we don't talk about it we're not going to talk about it just it doesn't if we don't talk about it it doesn't exist you can go do whatever you want to behind closed doors but so it was kind of like that and then I started working again it would This organization where we started getting refugees from former Soviet countries that are escaping persecution for being queer. and yes, it came out of Putin's law, homophobic laws, and under the guise of you're perverting children by holding hands in public.
00:11:24
Speaker
But also, they weren't just from Russia. They were also from Central Asia and they were from the Caucasus region. So
Personal Journey and Influence of Refugees
00:11:30
Speaker
there were people. kind but So when I say former Soviet countries, and I'm talking about the whole bloc, and they're all coming from that space and they're coming here. And I think that What really activated that with me was they were children to me. They were closer to my children's age than to me, to my age. I had two girls here who just turned 18 in Mexican detention centers, right?
00:11:53
Speaker
Who I was talking to. And I mean, how do you not find empathy or take on, and as a parent, that maternal role was there, to paternal or as a parent to care about people?
00:12:08
Speaker
I think it's not very hard hard to find that empathy when you see people like that. Especially the when I started working with them and talking to them and kind of having them in my house and having these conversations.
00:12:23
Speaker
I mean, we went my family went through the same thing. And no we weren't in detention centers, but we had to go through other countries to get here. We had a different journey. The asylum process in the 80s was different than it is right now.
00:12:36
Speaker
And it brought that up with me that we had a support system from Jewish organizations. That really helped us step by step, both financially and more and emotionally and helped us settle here.
00:12:52
Speaker
And these people don't have that. So well it was more about, it was less about i have the resources in terms of medical or legal. And it was more about come over for a holiday, come over for dinner. let me take you out.
00:13:07
Speaker
Let me get you some clothing. which I think is a drop in the bucket compared to the support they needed. But it it was also necessary because, again, are children. I know that 18 is legally an adult, but to me, i i can't.
00:13:23
Speaker
I'm not looking at them as adults. And a lot of them had their parents had turned away from them. They were ostracized by their families, by their communities. They're a new country. They haven't fulfilled their education. They don't have careers. What do they do? What?
00:13:37
Speaker
So in terms of empathy, and it's really the same empathy that I have for the kids here at the Herc Center. Well, I don't know. i know't I had no relationship here with them. They were from all over. They were the Venezuelan from Venezuela. We had a lot from them. We had some from here from Russia as well. But I look at them and I see children.
00:13:59
Speaker
So this whole conversation about their criminals and their this and their that, I don't see that I have. I really just have pity for them. I want to make sure they're all set. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you're talking about essentially the next generation, whether they identify as kids or a young adult.
00:14:18
Speaker
And what I hear you saying is that you're really focusing and have been focused on the community care aspect. of kind of trying to raise these folks, not necessarily with big displays of dissent, but really just like feeding folks, making sure that they have community, that they know who to turn to in tough times, that they have their basic needs met.
00:14:42
Speaker
And that's such a core part of organizing and especially organizing within queer and immigrant communities is like finding your people and trying to make sure that we all kind of level up together or at least stay safe together. And that's really beautiful.
00:14:59
Speaker
i mean, I think within the queer community, that's how it's been. Yeah. Whether they're from outside the country or inside the country or whatever the situation has been, queer communities have always had to come together to support each other. Because if we didn't, who would?
00:15:16
Speaker
Who's interested in us if not us if not ourselves?
Design Thinking in Education
00:15:20
Speaker
And so it's the way I look at raising kids. If you raise them with empathy, If you model that empathy, I apologize,
00:15:31
Speaker
then they will show that they will continue that. i hope. I might be wrong. didn't come with a playbook, but that's my theory on it. No, absolutely. I think it's powerful. I think, yeah again, yeah like you mentioned, community care models from Sylvia Rivera to so many, to the radical fairy movement, to so many movements. It is certainly a demonstration of k queer people showing power, but also just humans showing power. There are many examples of communities coming together and demonstrating that. I just, again, hearing your heart in that is so powerful. and and we're going to talk more about this. we're going to take a short break right now. we're going to come back to hear more from Susanna Shaw and and really share about her amazing projects, talents. We're excited more about that. We're in conversation with the amazing creative Susanna Shaw.
00:16:09
Speaker
And we'll continue right after this break with Power Beyond Prime.
00:16:19
Speaker
Welcome back. This is Power Beyond Pride, a queer change-making podcast. And I am Melody KG, here with my co-host... Shane. talking with the amazing Susanna Schall. Hey, Susanna, you have been the art director and designer of Sugo Design in New York for close to a decade now. And you worked with a lot of really amazing partners. And again, i am really grateful to have seen and witnessed your expertise at work.
00:16:45
Speaker
But I'm also excited that as a designer, you're going to start sharing more of your experience. Can you share a little bit about this new part of your trajectory? Yeah, so I wasn't sure when, at which point in my career, this was going to happen, but this felt like the year to do it and to just dive right in I always thought my whole career, i knew that I would eventually end up teaching.
00:17:08
Speaker
What that was going to look like or when it was going to happen, I was never quite sure. And I would dip my foot in here and do facilitations and trainings and I would speak at conferences and this and that, but I never quite...
00:17:22
Speaker
thought that i was even 25 years into it. I was like, do I have enough experience to share this? And this year i said, do you know what? I think I do. i think I've been doing this for long enough. And I love teaching, really, truly love teaching.
00:17:37
Speaker
But I thought it was so like arrogant on my end to think, what do, who am I to be teaching? And I said, no, you know what?
00:17:48
Speaker
yeah And I was, I said, where am I going to go? i have a master's degree, so I can teach you on the on the college university side. And that looked like fun. And I started developing my curriculum and I started developing my syllabus. And I get this email from Jan, from my partner. And she's I know you want to teach at a college. And she's have you ever thought about New York City high schools?
00:18:13
Speaker
And I'm like, I would love to. That would be my dream, to teach in the New York City High School. I love high school students. I know that that this is a controversial topic. I love high schoolers.
00:18:23
Speaker
And I said, but the how? I don't have a New York State teaching license. I can't right now go and come and spend, ah it takes about, I believe, a year and a half to two years to get another degree, pass the test, and then she goes, no.
00:18:37
Speaker
They're looking for CTE teachers, and you can start right away. You just need to get a certificate because you have a master's and you have x amount of industry experience. I said, no, there can't be. I know how the city works. It's going to be five and a half years. It's going to this, that.
00:18:53
Speaker
She was right. I submitted my certification and called up an acquaintance of mine from the DOE and he walked me through the whole process.
00:19:04
Speaker
And I was like, oh this isn't overwhelming. This is amazing. And I started emailing principals and I was like, and my whole spiel is I want to teach specifically graphic design.
00:19:16
Speaker
want to teach it at a high school level. And they all asked me, why do you want to do it at a high school level? And I said, hey, for me personally, it's a matter of equity to be able to teach this at a high school level where everybody has access to it and not teach it at the art school level.
00:19:34
Speaker
Because we know that art schools are expensive. We know that the art schools are not accessible to everybody. We know that the median you know salary in New York City, for people living in New York City, I'm not talking about coming from other places. It's not accessible to go to get a private arts education where graphic design tends to be taught.
00:19:55
Speaker
We do have city programs, but there are X amount of programs and there are more people who want to learn this than there are programs in the city. And I said, there's no need for this to be taught as something at a higher level, theoretical and so precious.
00:20:12
Speaker
I think it needs to be taught as a trade. It needs to be taught. to everyone design thinking. They don't need to come out graphic designers. We don't need everybody to come out of this program and this is their future career in life.
00:20:24
Speaker
But speaking of em empathy, what is the first pillar of design thinking human centered design? It's empathy. And I want, so that's what I want to do and wanted to do and how I feel I can truly can contribute to the next generation.
00:20:45
Speaker
My paperwork is in. I've been speaking to principals. Hopefully something will go through. I had my first demo lesson last week. They invited me for my third level, or like third to interview with the school.
00:20:57
Speaker
Wow. Really amazing place. The school itself spoke to the principal. i did my demo lesson. I love the kids. I was so sad that I only got 35 minutes with them. was so sad. They did these great like logos. and we had and we had to We really underestimate high schoolers.
00:21:14
Speaker
They're capable of Thank you. really higher thinking than we think they are. And it's the, I believe in Pygmalion, it's called in business and in education, there's a different term for it. People will rise up to your expectations of them. So. Well, and I love that you're raising design thinking, which does in it's in its own way, like you said, it's kind of like one of the, it's the first pillar. So bringing human, again, part of that part of what makes an empathy is the ability to imagine the world through someone else's eyes.
00:21:46
Speaker
To be able to say, my lived experience is not the lone truth, but that it is one of many truths, right? And so part of being able to be a good designer is to be able to step outside of yourself to do that. And so much of social justice is that, right? Like it is this idea about, hey, not only do I have my lived experience, which is going to inform my decisions, But I also want to recognize other people who have very different lived experiences. And my values are going to live into my decisions on how I act in this world to affect other people's lived experiences. Am I going to advocate for justice even if it doesn't benefit me directly, but benefits those I love because they're experiencing suffering or that all of that, or experiencing challenges? I just think it's really powerful to to think of design thinking in a way as this
Influences and Empathy in Education
00:22:25
Speaker
conduit. to to to encouraging empathy and encouraging another way of being in the world. Is there a teacher who kind of informed that? Who kind of influenced you? My grandmother.
00:22:38
Speaker
My grandmother. Oh, I'm starting from my grandmother and I've had amazing teachers along the way and that that could be whole podcast series, Teachers Who Influenced My Life. My grandmother. Starting with Babushka. Starting with Babushka, who was not, I lived with her as a child. So who raised me and she was an English teacher back in Ukraine.
00:23:00
Speaker
A very loved English teacher. And to my to my first MLS, I wore a ring of hers. And it was a ring, gold ring, that was given by her first homeroom class. And inside, there's an engraving and said to our favorite teacher.
00:23:16
Speaker
Now, in the Soviet Union, you understand for children to raise enough money to buy a golden ring with two rubies in it. Wow. And it two little rubies and a star on the inside. So that's our favorite teacher. So...
00:23:30
Speaker
and That tells you enough about what kind of person she was. that So that's the reason why i always thought I would end up teaching. That's amazing. That's such a beautiful story.
00:23:41
Speaker
And again, i see you here going back to this, like raising of the next generation, giving them the tools and support that they may need to step into the world.
00:23:53
Speaker
And high school is such an incredible time to be implementing some of these some of these teachings, because I remember the queerness and the radicalization started in middle school. But like it really came to fruition for me in my activism in high school, like seeing examples even in curriculum of Here's where you as an individual get to make the change that you want to see happen in the world while also learning that the world, the way that it's designed is deeply fucked and deeply not designed for us queer people. Right.
00:24:30
Speaker
And so I love that that you're taking your 25 plus years of experience doing all of this and bringing it back to the kids. That's beautiful. Yeah, I mean, i I really hope that I can support them because they're the ones who are going forward. They're the ones we're going to have to count on. I mean, i hopefully still have some time on this planet, but we need to raise to to raise the next generation and and give them the tools and to know that there are people supporting them.
00:25:00
Speaker
i don't like this perception of teachers as just that kind of, not keeping down, but just giving resources Knowledge.
00:25:12
Speaker
You can give knowledge. You can give knowledge in many different ways. You can pass down knowledge. It's very important. But to give support. To give knowledge as a form of support for them to move forward and to continue bettering this world, which is going to need a very strong generation.
00:25:33
Speaker
So I have to ask. Yeah. So so I have to ask this. as ah As somebody who's moving into education, as somebody of your own lived experience, of parenting, No one knows how to connect, I think, to the younger generations.
00:25:48
Speaker
Like what motivates them? What is interesting to them? What world it is that they want to build? Any suggestions or pointers for, i guess, all the different people working across movements? who are looking at young people and being like, I don't do TikTok. I don't know how to speak to this younger generation. I don't know. They're not interested in this. i don't believe it's true either. And I hear in what you say, like they are invested. They are interested. Are there any pointers that you've learned or that you feel like you you're comfortable sharing that help everybody else understand better?
00:26:22
Speaker
you You know what? I wish I had something smart to say right now, but it's pretty basic. You speak to them with respect. What? I'm sorry, what's that?
00:26:33
Speaker
I know you, I... I didn't come prepared. and Hold on. I thought I would come out with something a lot grander than this. You speak to them as you do? was he...
00:26:44
Speaker
another peer with not speaking at, speaking to. You're having, have a conversation. Talk to them. You don't know how to talk to them because of TikTok or this. You're speaking the same language. It's not, it's not that.
00:26:58
Speaker
I mean, no, some of the stuff they say is really. I mean, skibbity. We'll just put skibbity out there. It's zero sense. Zero, zero. But you know, whatever, like, I mean, we all had our terms. We all had our terms. So I'm go to go with skibbity as a thing. And so there we go.
00:27:14
Speaker
I mean, put just for a second, bring yourself back. The stuff I used to do as a teenager. Oh my God, I grew up on the New York City punk scene. Like you want to talk about... the Different podcast. But um he i what do you mean you can't speak to the other generation? Are you really that far removed? So maybe that's not an issue with them. Maybe that's an issue with you already. I'd give two snaps for that one. That for sure. Because I mean, the rebellion is important. And I think there's always every generation has its rebellions. I think we just need to figure out in this age of technology, what does that rebellion look like? And I really appreciate what you said there. like It's not about speaking to or at, or not speaking at, but or speaking with, right? Just connecting to and realizing that they're bringing, in some ways, the advantages they have at access to narratives is beyond anything I could even imagine growing up.
00:28:07
Speaker
And so they were able to reconcile a spectrum of identities and gender expressions that we didn't even have a language for. They got all that down. They were talking about racial identities and like the complexity of racial identities and heritage and legacies and and traditions and ancestry that I think is gorgeous and as a multiplicity that is beautiful in a way that, again, and I think was just so reductive among my generations. I think they're a lot more nuanced.
00:28:33
Speaker
And maybe that's where the dissonance is happening between our generation and theirs is that we didn't grow up that nuanced.
Generational Fluidity and Acceptance
00:28:41
Speaker
We grew up very much black, white, maybe a few shades of gray, somewhere in between. They've got a whole rainbow happening there.
00:28:49
Speaker
And we'd have a good rainbow. I mean, we we love, our rainbow's fine. It's fine. But there's this, it's not, I grew up again. we had gay, lesbian, and maybe endogenous somewhere in between.
00:29:00
Speaker
yeah the spectrum, the gender spectrum that is currently happening, is amazing. it is It's fluid. It's fluid in the best sense possible. And it really gives everybody their space without questions. And there really should be no questions here.
00:29:20
Speaker
You are who you are. It's accepted. It's that radical acceptance that is nobody's business but your own. And that's something that we can learn from them. Amazing. Let's talk more about that after a really short break.
00:29:34
Speaker
Please stay tuned to Power Beyond Pride as we continue our conversation with the creative and fiery Susanna Shaw.
00:29:50
Speaker
Welcome back to Power Beyond Pride, where we are talking with the creative activist and artist, Susanna Schall. I'm Shane Lucas, and I'm here with my amazing co-host. Melody KG.
00:30:02
Speaker
I just feel like a little rainbow should just pop up after you say that. I think a melody cagey and then a good rainbow. Now, Susannah, before going into the break, we were talking about generational influence, really understanding the power different generations. And many people may not know this about you. And I was really excited to to be able to learn this and and see some of your work. But you actually do some amazing artwork on your of your own. Can you share a little bit about your artistic journey and kind of what's influenced
Art as Resistance and Storytelling
00:30:29
Speaker
that?
00:30:29
Speaker
Sure. I don't know if it was a journey because it's been a part of my life for as long as I had and the fine motor skills to do this. It was something that was taught to us as children.
00:30:43
Speaker
My mom taught me to knit. Somebody else's grandmother taught me how to cross stitch and then how to bead and what do we now call fiber arts. i spin, knit, weave, can take from shearing, i don't shear the sheep, but raw wool, take it all the way to the final woven product and raise my own silk moths as well for silk.
00:31:11
Speaker
Let's see. I'm trying to remember. i like everything that goes into fiber arts. And again, i like the journey as much as I like the final product.
00:31:24
Speaker
I like growing the plants and collecting the plant plants for the dye. But not sharing the sheep. I do not share the sheep. Stop the sheep. yeah You know what? Apparently that's a whole different kind of occupation that I haven't yet gotten into yet. There's still time.
00:31:41
Speaker
There's time. There's time. there is I do go i got to the sheep for Fiber and festivals every year, multiple times a year, and I do watch them get sheared and I pick the sheep whose fleece I want. and Okay.
00:31:54
Speaker
It's a whole experience. Can you share what you mentioned that you've been doing this for, was this is this something that came from generations? Is this something that you mentioned how influential your grandmother was? Like, is there something in it that kind of speaks to you?
00:32:08
Speaker
it's It came full circle. Where... I think that doing this really makes me question what we consider fine art, right? I don't like that term.
00:32:21
Speaker
Fine art is a patriarchal construct. It's a european Western European white man-made, not human-made, but specifically male-made construct that has nothing to do with me or what I create.
00:32:41
Speaker
What I do is called and has been traditionally called as a craft. No, in ah in patronizing tones, a craft that women do.
00:32:54
Speaker
It's not legitimate art. and even when I went to art school, I would try to pass it off as art. And I was like, oh you brought a k craft in to art school.
00:33:05
Speaker
How nice. How Now, it has there a movement has been established and developed. It's been a number of years since this has happened. But... This is something we did in my family. We always did. And we didn't do it as an art because if you ask anybody else in my family, nobody's an artist.
00:33:21
Speaker
They're engineers, they're economists. they're We have no artists in our family, but everybody knew how to do this. They knew how to sew, they knew how to knit, they knew how to cross stitch because it was a skill.
00:33:35
Speaker
And it was a skill that you knew how to do just as much as you cook. So it was taught to me as a skill, reading, writing, sewing, knitting. I've picked up a few more along the way as i dove deeper into it.
00:33:49
Speaker
But for especially in Ukraine, it's a language. It's a narrative storytelling device. So, and for me, it's resistance. It's resisting the idea of what we consider fine arts.
Rapid Fire Questions
00:34:05
Speaker
So why I continue it. I love it. That's amazing. Thank you. So why don't we move into rapid fire round where the audience will get to know you a little better? Sure.
00:34:16
Speaker
I'm nervous. okay Could I be nervous? Don't be nervous. Okay. It's going to go great. ah Just say the first thing that comes to mind and try to think about it too hard. Okay.
00:34:27
Speaker
First question. What's a piece of art that inspires you? Currently, Bisa Butler. Bisa Butler? Bisa Butler. it' says She's an artist. I mean, all her art. It's not one piece. Everything she makes. she Please look her up. Anybody who's listening, please. She's quite well known.
00:34:44
Speaker
She's actually from the same town as my partner's from. But quilting, with quilts, she makes portraits. Portraits that talk about the Black lives in this country.
00:34:57
Speaker
And she, please look her up, Bisa Butler, B-I-S-A. She's stunning. Her work is amazing. If you ever get to see it in person, it's an even better experience than anything can be printed.
00:35:13
Speaker
All right. Now i love it. I love learning about new artists and that sounds amazing. Okay. Your biggest pet peeve from a designer. on I really try to be gentle with everybody,
00:35:26
Speaker
not no oh knowing how to do proper paragraph and character styles in InDesign. Fair enough. That is a very industry-specific thing, Shane, don't feel me. I feel it. I feel it. It is. It is. So yes, sympathy for those of us who are designers. This is one where we can all kind of give you a big amen at the end of that or a big two snaps for that one. I know that was very specific, but it's, I think I'm very understanding of almost anything. Yeah. That one is. It's really.
00:36:01
Speaker
Speaking of intergenerational stuff, us younger millennials would say InDesign, I've never met her. We use Canva. What are even talking about? And we would ask you, how do you control your text? And that is, it is, ah it is you can't control text. You can't. I was given a whole project for this high end High-end real estate developer.
00:36:22
Speaker
I mean, we're talking about multi a tens of million dollar project. I'm not naming the project, very high profile. And the thing was given to me on Canva two days before it's true. And we were like, we don't like how this looks. Can you redesign it?
00:36:38
Speaker
On Canva, 30 pages. It's due in two days. That's a $30,000 rush fee, sir. Thank you You're not wrong. It might have been something close to that. I got it out. I got it done. i did the rest of that campaign. you know no and the Controlling text in Canva is a nightmare. I don't care what anybody says. It's a nightmare. So I'm glad all you Canva lovers out there. That's great. I'm glad you're using all those templates. No, you're not. It looks like you are. And we know and we see you and we know what you use because they all look the same. But text control
00:37:12
Speaker
I feel you. Susanna and I are going to, we're going to create a club and we're going to, we're going create a styles club. oh job no Proper naming specifications. <unk> I know. Amazing. Melody is looking at us and she's giving us side eye.
00:37:26
Speaker
i I'm look I have my own small business and I'm constantly hitting Shane up for like can you please help me with a design thing I don't even know what control your text means so that's where I'm at I just so it's more just like my being confused and in awe of all of y'all so thank you for dealing with my millennial side eye that's gonna be the name of my pop podcast you i love that yeah I do. I love it. Okay. I am on the cusp of millennial. Can I be on it? I'm like right in. Yeah. Elder millennial side eye. Thank you.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yes. Okay. Susanna, what was your favorite moment as a dancer? People may know. We should probably front this too and say, be again, Susanna, you have a great career as a dancer. So we didn't talk about it at all, but you you've crossed many different styles all
Reflections on Art and Queer Icons
00:38:14
Speaker
these years. so Yeah. that I mean, again, that's a whole different conversation, but I have danced.
00:38:21
Speaker
in so well In so many amazing places for really amazing events and in people's happiest moments. i But by kind of one that stands out is ah dancing in a restaurant, Lebanese restaurant in Bay Ridge for one of the Saudi princes. Whoa.
00:38:45
Speaker
No pressure. That's incredible. Chipping was great. Yeah. Did you get a plane? Okay. Okay. You got rent. Okay. so I heard that. Not ashamed.
00:38:58
Speaker
I know. That sounds amazing. That sounds like an amazing. And that was so in terms of the type of dancing, was that because you've done ballet, you've done all types of dancing, right? No, this was ballet. This was ballet dancing. It was in the middle of my ballet dance career. And again, I was doing that as a what are we calling it now? As a side hustle at night. I worked at Morgan Stanley and they designed marketing during the day, costume in my bag.
00:39:21
Speaker
And at night I'd go off and dance. amazing phenomenal love it okay so your favorite queer icon queer icon where we where i it's going to have to be who threw the first brick right who threw the marsha p yes yeah marsha p miss major it marsha p who threw the first brick Okay, Marsh B. Johnson? Yeah.
00:39:48
Speaker
The fight came later, but that was the first first throw because it all went uphill from there. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome, yeah. stonewall Stonewall icons. Again, we have Miss Major with us still today. We have some of that we have very few of the icons left with us today. so Yeah, amazing.
00:40:08
Speaker
What's the best date you've ever had? Oh, what's the first date with my current partner? We went hiking. I know, i'm that thousand't that's so cheesy. You wanted something spicier, right? No, we went hiking.
00:40:19
Speaker
We went hiking. It was Yom Kippur. We couldn't do too much of a hike because I fasted on Yom Kippur. So i was fasting the next day, and or rather that night into the next day. And did five miles in the Palisades, and it was amazing. and Wow. was And Shane met her. She's great. i love her. Awesome. Yeah, phenomenal, phenomenal. That's such a cute classic lesbian story. We went hiking on our first date. It was like, I love that. I know. i know i ah We're a bit of a cliche, her and I. Like we are, me and my Subaru were She's an academia. I'm the artist. we're at Right, right.
00:40:59
Speaker
i we're I'm here for it. I mean, I think, yeah you know what? it It's gorgeous. It's beautiful. it is joyful. you could see it when you see both of you. So yet we're all about it. I love it. I'm glad that's the best dates. I want to know what the best piece of advice is that you would give to your future self. Oh,
00:41:18
Speaker
I'm never going to take it. I'm going to tell you right now. I'm never going to. tell I'm going to tell it to myself. It doesn't have to be perfect. It does. You can just go ahead and go ahead and do it. It doesn't have to be perfect. I'm already not taking it right now as it's coming out of my mouth.
00:41:36
Speaker
i the morning But I really wish that is that I could just kind of let go a little bit. Things don't have to be perfect for me to go ahead and do them. It's something I think that all artists, first of all, struggle with.
00:41:52
Speaker
Yeah. That anxiety of starting a project and ending a project and showing a project. And it's not only about art, it's about even this whole teaching thing.
00:42:03
Speaker
i didn't need to be a perfect designer who doesn't make mistakes. That's not achievable in order to go and teach somebody. And um I don't need to make a piece that's perfect.
00:42:21
Speaker
I think that is something that really holds me back on a regular basis to this day. so Yeah. that Don't wait. Just do it. Jump. Close your eyes. Jump in. Take the lead. Just do it. Nike. Nike. Just do it. thanks to advantage Yeah. You almost love it.
00:42:38
Speaker
I love it. Thank you. That's great. oh Are you an extrovert or an introvert? I believe recently there's been a new term for what I am I'm not an extrovert because extroverting does not give me energy. i might So I love people and I love being around people and talking and being. And this is amazing for me, this experience. And I love it. But For the rest of the day, I'm going to be in a bunker.
00:43:07
Speaker
I'm going to go hide in the place from my children. Or I might go to the gym and just kind of hang out there for a few hours with my headphones on. So I don't know what the category that puts me into.
00:43:20
Speaker
love it. I sympathize that. I think that's, very much share that experience. I think we will find one together. think it's whatever category that is, Susanna is, we're going we're going to, going to rock it. Because feel that, I feel that very similar to me.
00:43:32
Speaker
Now, I know you're an amazing cook. I've not had yet to enjoy your cooking, but I know you've shared that you cook a lot for your family. cook a lot. So what is your favorite thing to cook?
00:43:44
Speaker
Oh, my God. One favorite. No, I don't just like to cook for my family. I like to cook for my friends. I love to throw holiday parties. I recently had a ton of people over for Mamouna, which is the Moroccan celebration of the last day of Passover. I'll send you a photo of what was on the table. But, you know, we have. I not i want an invitation. i don't want to. You have an invitation. You are somewhere off in a different state. Whose fault is that? Everybody's fault. Always invited. It's an open door policy here. i cook enough food for the whole neighborhood to eat for the next week.
00:44:15
Speaker
It is something I do not for them. I do it for me because I derive so much pleasure. I'm just watching people eat and do all of that. So... I have that. I'm not even answering your question. Do you know it's not one thing. It's all the Soviet standards of the type of potato salad. We have a yuvia and crepes and oh it depends on the holiday. There's going to be like lamb with rice. There's going to be a a bunch of Middle Eastern dishes because my kid's dad and his side of the family, they're Iraqi, Koursey and Moroccan. So I got a ton of food from their side of the family.
00:44:50
Speaker
And plants, I make my own hummus, my baba ganoush. There different type plant salads from where I come from, because the part of Ukraine I'm from is very specific. It's a port town and it's the south, so we have a lot of different regional cuisines there. It's not what you think of as traditionally Ashkenazi food.
00:45:08
Speaker
it's There isn't one dish I like to make. I just like to cook and I like to feed people. That's my big thing. I love it. I love it. so open invitation next time there's a holiday. i do it usually about twice a year, once for Passover and one during the winter holidays, whatever day it works out. Amazing. Awesome.
00:45:28
Speaker
All right. Last question. What is your toxic trait? different Okay, ta which one? Oh, boy. um It doesn't have to be perfect. Just pick one.
00:45:40
Speaker
Toxic treat. Oh, God. It's the same thing. You know what? It's the same for myself as for other people. i expect sometimes more than...
00:45:51
Speaker
people can or have or sometimes my expectations of myself are very high and they are of people. That's something that really I go, it has failed me often.
Advice on Perfectionism
00:46:05
Speaker
Yeah. And that I try to, I really try to remind myself people don't need to have my ethics or my standards or my there's no need for that there it's not normal for that so i really try to remind myself of that quite often yeah that's a tough one i struggle with that myself as well and continue to sit in judgment of people yeah even when it's unwarranted but but but but i totally get it my daughter's name in hebrew is judgment i didn't think about I named her, and it wasn't intentional, I named her in honor of my grandmother, who I was telling you about earlier. yeah Because I said if I ever have a girl, she will definitely carry my grandmother's name.
00:46:51
Speaker
But her name means judgment. I kind of love that. That's extraordinary. She looks up me shelip said to Yes. That's so funny.
00:47:01
Speaker
so Yeah, I think that's that.
Podcast Conclusion and Interaction
00:47:05
Speaker
Susanna, thank you so much for this wonderful chat. We're unfortunately out of time, but I know people are going to want to continue the conversation with you. Where can people find you and follow you?
00:47:16
Speaker
um LinkedIn is... Probably the best option because a lot of my, like my Facebook is closed and my Instagram, i I'm not very active on LinkedIn. My first name, my last name, you'll see my photo there. It's pretty distinct and a little background. But yeah, feel free to reach out. I love conversations and meeting new people and chatting. So very open to anybody following me there.
00:47:45
Speaker
Thank you, Susanna, so much. I appreciate it. And if you also, if you have a project and you want to work with Susanna from a design perspective, certainly feel free to reach out, check out their amazing work. So go design is the name of Susanna's firm and just an amazing person to know and an artist to certainly follow and stay connected with. through any channel. And we're really grateful to have you here today. We hope you will come back and join us again as you continue on your journey. Thank you for sharing all these insights. It's certainly just your leadership and trying to connect to younger generations, trying to also model just what it means to to be there for immigrant rights is so important and critical and in this current stage, in this current era. And just being, ah again, ah just a queer...
00:48:24
Speaker
a queer leader, a queer, just embracing all the things that it means to be inclusive and bring people into the conversation. So it just means so much. So I want to say again, thank you ah for joining us today at Power Beyond Pride. I'm your co-host, Shane Lucas. I am, as I mentioned before, a peanut butter and jelly cheese and pickle and enthusiast, as well as a harm reduction activist and one of her great idea. You can follow me at shanelucas.com and also on LinkedIn.
00:48:50
Speaker
And I'm your co-host, Melody KG, Minneapolis-based provocateur. And you can follow me on Instagram at Melody KG, M-E-L-O-D-I-E, KG.
00:49:02
Speaker
Please remember to subscribe and get your friends to subscribe to Power Beyond Pride on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And check out our site at powerbeyondpride.com.
00:49:15
Speaker
Power Beyond Pride is a project from A Great Idea, queer-owned design and content agency. You can learn more about them at agreatidea.com. This episode is produced by Shane Lucas. Samir Sarkar is the project developer. Our editor is Jarrett Redding, with support from Ian Wilson.
00:49:32
Speaker
And we are both part of this podcast's awesome host team, and they are awesome. And we invite you to send in your questions and comments for our monthly reply all episode at powerbeyondpride.com.
00:49:45
Speaker
Check out our new episodes each week and we look forward to queer change making with you next time. Thank you from all of us at Power Beyond Pride.