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GM EV1 - A look back to set the record straight on the past
96 Plays2 years ago
In this Episode, we talk with Steve Haas, who was involved in the General Motors EV1 project. He shares his involvement, insight and reflections on what was a pioneering vehicle, well ahead of its time.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and EV Universe
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to Plug In For More, brought to you by evuniverse.com. EV Universe is your one-stop shop for all things related to the electric vehicle. Here on this podcast, our goal is to educate, inspire, and hopefully make your transition into the electric vehicle marketplace a lot less intimidating. And now, here are your hosts, Mike, Tom, and Bryant.
The EV6's Impact at Local Events
00:00:29
Speaker
Welcome, everyone. This podcast is going to take us back to the past. It was funny, I brought my EV6 to a Cars and Coffee this morning for the first time. I actually had a ton of people looking at it. There's a lot of interest. There's some Ferraris there and tons of C8 Corvettes, but my car got a lot of interest. I actually couldn't leave. I got flagged down. As I was leaving, someone wanted to talk to me.
Introducing Steve Haas and the EV1 Legacy
00:00:55
Speaker
at the Cars and Coffee, I ran into my old buddy Steve Haas and we started talking about EV1s and I think we...
00:01:03
Speaker
We kind of teased this on a few episodes ago when Mike was talking about selling his Ford GT, and he was mentioning the Tesla Roadster as possibly the most valuable EV. But I brought up the EV1 and said, you know what, an EV1 might be more valuable because there's not that many left. Anyway, conversation just with Steve, my friend Steve, who had some experiences that would bring him on the podcast.
00:01:27
Speaker
And he can share some stories around the EV1 and his experience.
Steve's Background in Early Electric Vehicles
00:01:31
Speaker
So welcome, Steve. And do you just want to introduce your background and kind of what you've been involved in, not just the EV world, but you're pretty well known in the automotive space as well, Steve. Yeah, thanks for having me, guys. This is really fun. And it was fun seeing your EV6 this morning at Cars and Coffee. You were literally parked two cars down from two Ferraris, and I think your car got more attention.
00:01:54
Speaker
What does that say about people's, their attention, Ferrari owners, perhaps. But anyway, I'm Steve. I've been in the car world for a lot longer than you guys have. I started at Saturn back in 1991 after finishing University of Michigan. And a couple of years into my time there, the rumor started that we were going to be handling the marketing and sales for the electric cars for General Motors to Saturn.
00:02:20
Speaker
I was in Tennessee at the time and I thought, this is the most interesting thing I've ever heard. I'm going to move to California and do that. It was like an old cartoon where they asked for volunteers and everybody takes a step backwards and even the one guy out in front who has no career aspirations. So I felt like that. And they're moving out to California. Amongst other duties at Saturn, I was very early on with the electric vehicles, sales, marketing, infrastructure set up, training. It was a really fun time.
00:02:49
Speaker
After that, I've been with eBay Motors and Agatee and then a consultant and other things in the car world. Last 15 years, we were focused on classic cars, but still a huge electric car.
Market Challenges of the EV1
00:03:02
Speaker
So Steve, I've got a question as far as your experience with the EV1. So it sounds like you guys did a lot of the marketing and infrastructure around that. Can you kind of give me your thoughts on
00:03:14
Speaker
what it was like back then as far as General Motors and what they were thinking as far as promoting it. Did I think this was going to be a long-term transition, turns into what it did today, or was it
00:03:28
Speaker
you know, really something where they were, you know, just a compliance vehicle. Um, you know, I think a lot of people have seen the, um, the movie, you know, what killed the electric vehicle or electric car. Yeah. Can you just kind of walk us through what, what your thoughts were at that time, um, and what you were feeling. So I understand the thought that it was just a compliance vehicle. So to back up a little bit, starting around 1991,
00:03:56
Speaker
California started a mandate that I think by 1998 or 2000, 10% of cars sold in California had to be quote unquote zero emission vehicles. Today, that sounds crazy. I think we're not even 1% still, even with the success of Tesla and all these other models. At the time, it was a huge shock to the system. General Motors spent over a billion and a half dollars developing and marketing
00:04:25
Speaker
At the time, we certainly didn't think of it just as a compliance vehicle, although production was limited. Over a four-year span, roughly two generations, they built roughly 1,200 of them. Marketing, I guess one of the complaints in Who Killed the Electric Car was that they didn't spend huge dollars marketing these on television and Super Bowl ads all over the country. But keep in mind, they were only sold, I should say least, in California, Arizona originally.
00:04:53
Speaker
So all the marketing was focused there. We actually built a waiting list for these about three times longer than the number of cards we had available. So from that perspective, I'd say it's really hard to say we were unsuccessful at marketing the EV1 because we had three buyers for the credit bill, but there were long delays.
Building Early Charging Infrastructure
00:05:15
Speaker
Also keep in mind, there was no infrastructure at all at the time. There was no public charging.
00:05:21
Speaker
General Motors spent a lot of money building that. And one of the projects I worked on was working with large partners to install public chargers. So it wasn't like you were going to put a bunch of chargers on the side of the road. We worked with places like Ralph Supermarkets, Costco's in California, Arizona. And pretty much all the Costco's in California ended up putting 220 volt level two chargers in. Because the idea was
00:05:47
Speaker
We had a car with only 60 miles of range in the first generation, and it jumped up to about 110 in the second generation. But it took about two, three hours to get that level of charge at 240 volts. So we wanted to put chargers where people wouldn't be waiting anywhere, in the course of the demographics aligned with the folks that these stores wanted. So it was interesting at the time.
00:06:14
Speaker
Fun to look back, and you guys are interesting, because while the state had a mandate that we had to sell these things, there were very few incentives for people to buy them. So they had a mandate to say you have to sell these things, but here's a very simple incentive. Hey, you can use the HIV lane, which is much more complicated when you have a 60-mile range. Staying in motion was much more important than just getting a nice, fast lane in your Prius, right? But they vetoed that twice. So we never even had that incentives.
00:06:45
Speaker
It was a crazy time. We managed to build about 500 public chargers all over the states, western states.
Marketing Strategies and Challenges for the EV1
00:06:52
Speaker
We had all sorts of famous people leasing these cars. A lot of the marketing was focused on events, getting people behind the wheel. It was a very impressive car. I still think it's probably, I don't have the data behind it, I think it's still probably one of the most efficient cars ever sold. We had a 60 mile range with red acid batteries.
00:07:14
Speaker
But yeah, I think he had 12 and a half kilowatts of power on board. So you're talking a car was the equivalent to about 180 miles an hour. Because the car was other than the batteries between 1200 pounds, the rest of the car was aluminum and magnesium, super dynamic. It was quite a kick to drive that thing. At the time it felt fast, seven and a half seconds here to 60 in 1996 was quite an achievement.
00:07:47
Speaker
Steve, to your point, zero to 60 in seven seconds, super fast. Now we've got the Tesla Plaid, you know, 1.9. I'm curious, two quick questions. Did you feel like at the time, the EV1 was just too far ahead of its time?
00:08:06
Speaker
You mentioned no charging infrastructure, no incentive to buy, but the technology was 60 miles, 100 miles. There's still EVs being sold, like the Mazda, for example, and others that have ranges like that. Do you feel like the EV1 was just too far ahead of its time and that's why it
The Advanced Technology of the EV1
00:08:23
Speaker
didn't take off? Or do you think it was more of like, this was just meant to prove that EVs could exist?
00:08:29
Speaker
And then they could prove upon it and actually sell something like the Volt when they eventually got to market. What was the purpose of the EV1? Was it to sell it, or is it more to test it and see how it went? It's tough to say. I don't know that the market was ready. I remember gasoline was about $1.35 a gallon at the time. General Motors was making $10,000 of pop profits selling underage tubes. The technology was there, but we were losing a fortune on that car.
00:08:58
Speaker
the volumes we were making, they were handbooked cars. I think it was a way to go after early adopters. I think the biggest failure was not to capitalize on that initial product, it was something new. They had hybrid versions of the ED1 platform driving around in 1997, 1998. But General Motors was really bankrupt. At the time, we eventually went bankrupt that many years later, and we had to focus on cars that were profitable.
00:09:28
Speaker
The EV1 wasn't the only, I misspoke earlier, it was not the only electric car being offered at the time. Honda had one called the EV Plus, so they had sold an electrified version of the RAV4. General Motors also had a S10 pickup truck that was converted to electric that they sold to utilities in Georgia and California. It was very early days. Personally, I think we were kind of caught in a corner, right? We'd had on one hand the desire to
00:09:58
Speaker
capture a new market to brand General Motors as a leader in technology. But you also have this mandate by the state. And it put General Motors and the other manufacturers in the position where on one hand you're trying to sell a product and the other hand you're trying to fight this mandate. And it seemed like you were talking to both sides of your mouth. I think if the market had been left alone or to grow at a more gradual pace, you know, at a natural pace,
00:10:28
Speaker
I think maybe we were seeing some cars earlier on. Steve, were you aware of any discussions to move the battery technology to lithium ion back then? Or was that not spoken of? Second gen move to nickel metal hydride. Lithium ion, lithium polymer didn't exist yet. It was very, very early. The EV1 stopped production in 1999, 2000.
00:10:56
Speaker
I don't think that technology even existed at the
The Rarity and Collectibility of the EV1
00:10:58
Speaker
time. He's not in production. Yeah. I mean, I know the Tesla Roadster was the first mass produced lithium ion cell battery. Just more curious if there was, if you'd heard whisperings of, they were thinking of doing that or anything, or if that was not even something that ran across your desk.
00:11:25
Speaker
I don't know. I know General Motors did invest in a battery manufacturer that was trying to perfect the nickel metal hydride technology. I don't recall hearing anything about lithium polymer. If it was, it was very early on. It was just a feature technology at the time. But if you can imagine what an EV1 would have for range, it would still have a 1200-pound battery pack of lithium-ion, as everything else is saying. Today, it's more efficient motors and drive electronics than anything else.
00:11:53
Speaker
especially on a 600 mile range. Incredible. So question for you also, I mean, have you kept up with where, I mean, I think there's a lot of information out there on the EV1s being gathered up, crushed, et cetera. That's been documented over and over again. But do you know where the other ones are? Because I think there's only a handful left. Of the roughly 1,200 that were built, 20 were saved.
00:12:24
Speaker
I know General Motors had a running example in their heritage center because they actually brought it out to the Andrean Concorde last fall. I remember driving that same car. It was a red one. To my knowledge, there's only one other functioning car. I can't prove it, but the rumor is that Francis Ford Coppola has a running example of his museum and his mind in an alphabet. The rest of them were disabled in our museums or universities.
00:12:54
Speaker
It's probably one of the rarest cars that you get your hands on a driving anymore. If you get a chassis, I think it would be really interesting to retrofit with some modern batteries and Tesla drive train thing would be a monster. Yeah. I found an article that there was an EV one that was located abandoned in a Atlanta parking structure in 2019. Yeah. That wasn't a big universities down there. It wasn't truly abandoned. It just left a park there.
00:13:22
Speaker
Oh. You're in dust. I think I saw pictures of that. Pretty sad. Yeah, I love the person has one in their museum. A few other museums happen as well. Smithsonian. Steve, I mean, if an EV1 would go to auction at Pebble Beach or trade privately, what is your estimate of, you know what, I mean, it's hard to say, but what is your estimate? What would it go for? I mean, are these collectible? Do people want these? Like, what are your thoughts?
Personal Experiences with the EV1
00:13:49
Speaker
You know, people collect the darndest things. I think if you had one that was static, I think it would still sell because somebody could probably take that chassis and lose it. If you had a running one, what's a early Tesla roaster selling for now?
00:14:05
Speaker
Well, they range, but the most recent sales that I'm aware of, private party and public, they range anywhere from $90,000 to $250,000. They're in that ballpark. I think a few of the auction sites in the last few weeks, there's been a few that have gone for around $150,000 or so.
00:14:28
Speaker
So, and only a couple of those are, I would say truly special Roadsters, like some of the validation prototypes and the SIG100 series, which are more the, you know, the first 100 built, or again, the validation prototypes that ended up being sold. A run of the mill Tesla Roadster. I think you're talking more, most of those are for sale between 120, 140 right now. Yeah, of course you wouldn't be able to get any parts for a new one, maintain it.
00:14:59
Speaker
Something would be a pretty cool collector piece. Tesla Roadster is 125. I don't see why an EV1 that you just can't get anywhere else could be worth half a million dollars. It's not in my budget anyway. It's just a total gas.
00:15:17
Speaker
You're listening to the plugin for more podcast. If you're looking for information on electric vehicles, electric vehicles, components, or information on how to reduce your carbon footprint, look no further than evuniverse.com. evuniverse.com is your one stop shop for all things related to electric vehicle. What was it like to drive the EV1? It was so far advanced at the time. It was a lot of fun to drive. I drove one.
00:15:46
Speaker
Kind of one funny story, I drove one from Sacramento to Lake Tahoe. We had a group of five of us, the EV1s. We had to take a 240 volt charger, which is about the size of a payphone, not that anyone remembers a payphone anymore either, but we had that with Trump and a bunch of adapters. We had to stop three times to go the 90 miles from Sacramento to Lake Tahoe because of all of Hill. We stayed the night at a hotel and we had a long extension cord out the window to charge the car at 110 volt.
00:16:16
Speaker
And when we left Lake Tahoe, we made it to Sacramento without stopping with a half a charge because we were regenerating all the way down the mountain. So we never made that trip. It's a hit elevation about 9,000 feet. You know, it stopped traffic. The car looked like a spaceship. It still looks like a spaceship. It's still the most aerodynamic car ever sold. I think, you know, 0419. I had a lot of funny things. Like it didn't have a key. We had a keypad. We typed in a code in a start button.
00:16:44
Speaker
It was in the days when every car still had keys. I think we were just starting to get remote controls to unlock the doors. So it was pretty cool. I had to stop and answer a lot of questions. I once worked the LA Auto Show. I think it was 1995. So it was about a year before the car came out. And there weren't any people out there who really knew the product. So I was there for four days.
00:17:07
Speaker
And it was basically the same questions over and over again. How far, how fast, how much? I think I couldn't walk or speak after that. It was really, really fun because people were excited about it. But there was a lot of hesitancy. I would think the market was quite quick for it. Again, gas was really cheap. People didn't really see the need for it. But then when you got people behind the wheel, it was always fascinating.
00:17:35
Speaker
you know, see their reaction because their initial thought was this thing is going to be like a golf cart.
The EV1's Unique Appeal and Celebrity Connections
00:17:39
Speaker
It's going to be really slow. But when we stepped on it, it just threw you back in the seat. We had equivalent of 137 horsepower, but it was just so instantaneous. People weren't used to that like we are now. So we spent a lot of time behind the wheel doing test drive. There's some of the tech employers in California that test drive programs. I remember taking one up to Seattle.
00:18:02
Speaker
took the board of directors from Costco for rides in the car because we were working with them to build that charging infrastructure I mentioned earlier. These guys would be zooming down the street, 60 miles an hour, just because it was so much fun to hit the gas, to sell a pedal on that car. It was really a unique experience. You were driving something nobody else knew.
00:18:25
Speaker
It's pretty cool. And so with, we were talking about like with the range, limited range and, you know, and by speed comparisons to today, like, and, and what I'm setting up here is making fun of Bryant. This are on the same page. Um, Brian has some range anxiety and he likes his eco mode on his EV six, which I know Evie and Kia calls it eco drive mode, but I mean, for all intents and purposes, it's it's old man drive mode.
00:18:54
Speaker
And it sounds like the EV one just was like all the time, all the time, old man drive mode, but is that accurate? Or did you have like different modes? You could actually, if you really wanted to drive, cause it sounds like a Bryant type of car. Yeah, it was all controlled by your right foot because there was no mode and like trying to know it on the car. Um, it depended on where you had to go. If I had a full charge and I knew I only had to drive 10 miles and to plug it in again, we drove the heck out of it. Sure.
00:19:23
Speaker
Remember once we were driving to an event in Santa Barbara, so we picked up the car from the Saturn dealer in Oxnard. It's not that far, but we knew we weren't going to have any chargers in Santa Barbara. So we'd have to drive to the event, have the car displayed, and then drive back to Oxnard. And there's a big hill that we think went back that direction. And it was 86 degrees that day. So we're like, do we open the windows and we just
00:19:49
Speaker
We create drag, we run the air conditioning, so we're running with the windows closed and the air conditioning off on an almost 90 degree day because we were so anxious about getting back. We had a 110 volt charger in the trunk, so worst case scenario, you could find a gas station and maybe they'd let us plug in and eight hours later we could probably run out of time.
00:20:08
Speaker
Oh, that's crazy. Crazy Steve. I think, uh, Steve, I have a kind of like last question for you is, you know, what's your favorite EV one story you shared this morning? They were limited to like, what, 80 miles an hour? Cause otherwise you're going to take off. I mean, what's your, what's your favorite EV one story? You've got so many of, uh, of something that's kind of like cutting edge and, uh, the grandfather of what we have today for electric vehicles. Yeah. The car was so aerodynamic.
00:20:34
Speaker
that it was governed to 80 miles an hour, not because it couldn't do faster. It only governed, I think, about 135, but because it would lift off the ground. So that time we were coming back from my top or down I-80, we just put it in neutral and started coasting. And if it went to 80, 85 miles an hour, because you were neutral, the governor wasn't involved. I almost lost the steering on the car. It was just lifting off the ground. There was no downforce on it. So that was probably the most terrifying experience.
00:21:03
Speaker
I remember taking the mayor of Fontana for a ride in the car and speed limit around the city hall. It was 25 or 30 miles an hour. He was doing full line. I'm like, slow down, slow down. And he goes, it's OK. I'm not going to get a ticket. I'm the mayor. I'm like, I don't care about a ticket. I don't want to kill somebody. It just brought off the worst and the best in people. But I think the biggest thing was just meeting the most interesting people with that car. Francis Ford Coppola, a lot of the actors in L.A.
00:21:32
Speaker
a lot of these tech entrepreneurs. Put in perspective, the biggest technology of the day for personal computing was the Palm Pilot. We had some techie guys in the Bay Area who hacked into the OBE flood and created a program for the Palm Pilot so they could monitor with more detail what was going on with the propulsion system on the car. They wanted microamperage of regen. They wanted all these
00:22:00
Speaker
So these guys started selling to other ED-1s that seeds, you know, mounting brackets and plugs and software so they can mount their palm pipettes and the dashboard of the ED-1s so they can get all this data.
00:22:13
Speaker
It was really crazy to think about that now. No one's going to hack them in their EV6. That's fantastic.
Conclusion and Farewell to Steve Haas
00:22:20
Speaker
Well, Steve, I really want to thank you for all the stories and the background of the EV1 and obviously your wealth of knowledge. So again, thank you for joining us. See you around. Yeah. Looks forward to talking again. Thanks for having me.
00:22:36
Speaker
Yeah, thanks, Steve. Appreciate it. Thank you for listening to Plug In For More. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. In the meantime, check out the one-stop EV Marketplace, evuniverse.com. Until next time.