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Finn Melanson | Is Australian Trail Running Underrated?
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In this episode, we sit down with Finn Melanson from Singletrack to talk about where Australian trail running sits in the wider world, why our scene still feels underrated, and what is actually building beneath the surface. From the rise of events like Buffalo, GPT and Kosci, to the athletes starting to break through, this is a conversation about momentum, visibility, and what still needs to happen for Australia to be taken more seriously on the global stage.
We also get into the media side of the sport, including why the US has had such a big head start, what Australia still lacks, how race coverage and livestreams can shape the growth of the scene, and why telling better stories matters if the sport wants to keep moving forward. Along the way, Finn shares plenty on podcasting, building Singletrack, staying curious as a host, and where he thinks trail running is all heading next.
***Don’t forget, use code PEAK at Bix’s website for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Main Topic
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Peepersuit Podcast. My name is James Sieber and today we're joined by Finn Melanson from Singletrack Podcast for a really interesting chat about Australian trail running, where the scene sits globally and what is really building over here in Australia at the moment.
Key Races and Athletes in Australian Trail Running
00:00:29
Speaker
We get into the races that are starting to matter more and more, the athletes that are coming through, the media gap that still exists in Australia including with our own podcast and what it will actually take for the sport to keep growing here. We chat a lot about trail media more broadly, how Finn thinks about storytelling and podcasting for Singletrack and where he sees the sport heading in the next few years, including a really interesting take about the Olympics, which has significantly changed over the last five years for him.
Finn Melanson's Journey in Trail Running
00:00:56
Speaker
It's a really wide-ranging conversation, but a really good one, especially if you care about where Australian and trail running fits in the bigger picture right now. I really hope you enjoy this one. It was great fun to record and a very special moment for me as a podcaster to get to have a chance to talk to one of the key voices in our sport.
00:01:13
Speaker
With that, let's get to the podcast with Finn Malanson. Finn Malanson, welcome to the Peepershoots podcast. it's ah It's quite surreal, but very good to have you here. Yeah, great to be here. And I'll just say, as i've as I have been on my own journey to understand the Australian trail running scene better, one of the people that I came into contact with, Joe Dorff at Single Track Events, who puts on the GPT-100, as your audience knows way better than I do. And he spoke extremely highly of your podcast. And so actually, I started tuning in maybe two or three months ago after going back and forth with him on emails. And um i mean, he yeah, he he spoke extremely highly. So ah that was cool.
00:01:52
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. it Joe is probably the reason why i i i came onto the podcast about a year into its inception. And it was on a run with Joe. but We were just talking about it and here is he was really the instigator for why
Notable Australian Trail Runners
00:02:05
Speaker
I've ended up here. So I have a lot to thank you for. i was i always I briefly worked with the single track guys as well. So I did the the first inception of GPT. But I'm i'm curious, and if you've been listening for a couple of months, what's ah what's your opinion so far?
00:02:17
Speaker
I think it's great. um You know, like I said, if i go through just like what I've learned, the athletes, I mean, I've always known Lucy Bartholomew. I think everyone does. She's sort of just like an international star, but Brady Temple, Kate Avery, Juliet Sewell, like on the women's side, ah this George, I think I just listened to your episode with George Knight.
00:02:37
Speaker
Yeah. You know, super, super, super interesting guy. And I knew of him just because he gave my good friend, Caleb Olson, a good run for his money in the first 50K at GPT last year. I know Mike Dunstan a little bit.
00:02:50
Speaker
yeah ah Charlie Hamilton for sure. I think he could be like the next breakout star on the scene. And then, I mean, of course, Phil Gore. Yeah, of course. You know,
Momentum in Australian Trail Running
00:03:00
Speaker
so I don't know. Maybe I'm just touching all the classics here, but I know a little bit.
00:03:04
Speaker
I think it's interesting. like there's I have found myself questioning this a while for a while now is that it feels like there's a lot of momentum behind this trail train running scene. But I don't know if that's just because we're getting more and more involved in it. I'm sure it was yourself starting the podcast as well as that as the years go by, it feels like this momentum is really building. But I'm struggling to discern if that's true or not. However, we have people like Charlie. We have another guy, Mikey Demorantes. He's just moved to Turkey for his wife's work. He's going to be racing a lot like the things doing, Marathon de Montblanc and OCC or CCC. He's very much in that same like Charlie Hamilton bucket.
00:03:39
Speaker
Mikey had a good Canyons 100K last year. Yeah, he did. He did. And that's actually, that his we we interviewed him after that. And it was interesting to hit to hear that he kind of just put himself in it and went with it. And as happens with most 100Ks, still a few things went wrong, which kind of left us pretty excited about what he could do.
Event Participation and Cultural Significance
00:03:57
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, if you don't asking, what else, what are some other signs for you that the Australian scene is picking up? Well, if you're looking at the event side of things, I think that there are definitely an increase in numbers. So Buffalo Stampede, where George Knight just won, that a single track took that on 2020 2021. And they took it on from a pretty...
00:04:20
Speaker
ah it was in it it was It was in a tough spot, probably the best way to put it. And it's now had 3,500 runners this last, well, two weeks ago. So that puts it behind UTA and I think, so Ultra Australia and I think Ultra Kosciuszko, I think that's number two or three, sorry. um so And then we're seeing that kind across the board with with more entrants. There are more events popping up all the time. um Trail running from a participation perspective is growing pretty rapidly in Australia. So Australian and athletics have...
00:04:48
Speaker
included trail into their new like rebranding and there's this conversation at the moment about governance which is probably not dissimilar from the u.s trail scene which is in a bit of a mess at the moment but there's there's a lot of like these growth signals that are happening it's just there's also a lot of um limitations at the moment let's say is buffalo stampede is that is that victorian alps yeah yeah so bright is bright where it is yes so when it comes to ah was thinking about this i was i was listening to were you listening to the episode you did with james elson from centurion which i've now started listening to his podcast a lot more because i'm from the uk like i i'm about five minutes from the north downs so it's be quite cool to learn a bit bit more about it it's got me very inspired to go back there and uh do some of the races but So there's like historically, there's a few events tre on the trail scene that have been going since the late 60s, 70s, and they've all been Victorian Alps focused.
Prestige of Australian Trail Events
00:05:46
Speaker
There's one up in Queensland, which no longer runs anymore, which I think actually might be the oldest standing one. But um Bright's kind of the the hub for Victorian Alps. And then that goes up into the actual high country, which is where a couple of the ski resorts are.
00:05:58
Speaker
And then there's those are some pretty iconic events, but not not anywhere and it was as big. um The scene is definitely growing. So Western Australia has a couple of really big ones. South Australia, a little bit quieter. There's a historic event called the Hasten Trail, but they don't get depth of competition. They don't but get particularly big numbers. They're just the the more well-known events. Then obviously, Alt Trail Australia, that's in New South Wales. So is Alt Trail Kosciuszko.
00:06:23
Speaker
Canberra doesn't really have anything called the ACT. um And then there's Six Foot Track, which is also in the Blue Mountains where Alt Trail Australia is. But it's all very New South Wales, Victoria dominated, really. Gotcha. I mean, the just again, can I give you the list that I'm familiar with and let me know if I'm missing anything?
00:06:39
Speaker
Please do. Okay, so I've got, when I think of your scene, I think of, you just said UTA for sure. Like that goes way back. That's Ultra Trail World Tour for me. Yeah. Cusco, GPT, Buffalo Stampede, and sometimes just by default, I throw Tarawira in there, even though New Zealand. Yeah.
00:06:56
Speaker
But like, if would you say those are the four or five key events on the scene or am I missing anything? When you say key events, what are your, what are you holding as key? It's a mix of prestige, competition, beauty.
00:07:10
Speaker
Okay, so GPT is obviously very new. i think 2023 was the first year. However, World Trail Majors, the trail is incredible. Like guess I said, I was working on that trail for that first year of the inception year and it's just is stunning. um I think that running the whole trail in one day across 100 miles almost feels like a shame because you're inevitably going to spend some of it in the dark through nights, potentially two nights.
00:07:35
Speaker
and that seems like he kind of missed it but personally i think the stage race there would be uh would be my picture so you can actually explore it all um but gpt but basically anything run by single track events so gpt um hounslow up in the blue mountains that's like a so stunning stunning area again gets single track is good at getting maybe a competitive top five across every distance men's and women's it doesn't always go super deep past that but that's also just australia um Buffalo Stampede, that's probably the second most competitive behind Old Trail Australia.
00:08:07
Speaker
But adding in the prestige element, you've got Six Foot Track Marathon.
Emerging Trail Events and Participation Challenges
00:08:10
Speaker
That one is, it's it's a very fast, but still still pretty hilly, about 40, I think it's technically about 46k or so, which has the the historic times on it and the historic runners on it are sort of the best the best in Australia.
00:08:27
Speaker
Then we have Warburton Trail Festival, which in the previous two years has been part of the Golden Trail National Series. This year it was the only Golden Trail national event. Lucy raced that, right? Yeah, Lucy raced that. We had a there's a lady from Iceland, Andrea Corbin's daughter, who's dating an Australian. So she's been over here a couple of times. She won Alps Trail Kosciuszko 50k last year. She then won this. And...
00:08:55
Speaker
it's obviously a little bit tricky because we've never had the international competitive athletes come over here and set times on these courses, but she just blew all the times out of the water and beat most of the guys' times. And it was it was as a historically fast running of the event because they'd done a lot of work to the trail, so it was running a bit quicker.
00:09:13
Speaker
But even so, it was yeah really cool see. And then we have a new name in that one, the lady that came second, Jo Hepton. She's come from an obstacle course racing background and just won that and buffalo stampede 20k in a like it's a new course but stupidly fast time um we've got a couple of we've got a new event in tassie starting up called diverge which is kind of the first sky run that's its first year this year it'll be interesting to see how that that takes off but that's the if if you look at any of the the material for the event it's very technical it it doesn't have the the altitude that sky running should technically have but the terrain style is very sky running-esque and we there's a couple more across the country like that this is amazing yeah and then there's there's some very historic races which
00:09:59
Speaker
are like they could never be competitive. So Cradle Mountain Run, which is down in Tasmania, that runs on the overland track. And it's either sort of 65 or 80 is the most number of people that can use the track in one day. So that's what the race is limited to.
00:10:13
Speaker
But it's been running since... I think that's 1981 or 1984. So it's got a lot of heritage on there. One of the old guys, Andy Cromar, has the course record on the men's side.
00:10:25
Speaker
And he like he has a lot of the mountain records here from the, I think, 90s. Just astonishing. um And there's a lady called Hannie Alston who has stopped racing now, but just has... like some Sometimes I don't don' i don't think...
00:10:40
Speaker
there'd be many people that could beat them on that terrain because obviously that's their local trails and stuff but yeah it's there's a lot of really cool history here it's always very hard to tell because there's not the international level to compare it to how do you with peak pursuits how do you decide what to cover what not to cover what stories are important etc on the australian scene it's good question I think that
Trail Running Media and Coverage Comparisons
00:11:02
Speaker
we look at the depth of competition. So the peak pursuits is, it's there to provide light on news and the sport, the top level athletes, the stories, and trying to create a bit more awareness and storytelling around sport.
00:11:17
Speaker
that that side of the sport. there There are other podcasts in Australia that do a great job of the like real community focused stories. um But the the four that started it, they're all very top level runners. That's where their experience is. And so we're looking at yeah which events have depth, what news is relevant to, again, that top side of the sport or the kind of the sport bit more globally.
00:11:40
Speaker
um And then anything that sort of just really piques our interest and to is the simple way to describe that. cool. Yeah, I'm just, it's been fun as a fan of the sport student, the sport, just to like, try to understand each regional local ecosystem better. And it's cool to think that like, basically you guys are like the, you are the, the, the referential material for, for the like, sort of like Australian ultra shell coverage.
00:12:08
Speaker
It'd be like free trail in the U S. Yes. Yeah. I would say that's probably where we fall in. Like we we wouldn't be as kind of far down the funnel as say single track would be, in, in a, in who we're talking to. Like we're not, although I personally have a big interest, like I, I used to really enjoy more of your business of the sport style stuff, which I know you said you're moving away from, but like, that's where I would naturally fall into. But I also love hearing about the storylines of people. Like when you get a chance to speak to speak to George Knight, even one of the guys on the podcast with me, Vladix, or I did an a long form interview with him a couple, well, a month ago or so.
00:12:45
Speaker
And there's always, there's so much more to the people that create that version of them as an athlete. And it's just, it's fascinating. So kind of having, hearing that storytelling side of it to get to know the people across the whole world and that been one bit more buy-in. But yeah, we we have we have seemingly looking at the data sort of be able to become that for Australia, which is really cool because New Zealand has, to my understanding, Dirt Church Radio. So that's like our equivalent over there. Yes.
00:13:14
Speaker
And then obviously Free Trail would probably be the equivalent in in the States, i'm potentially Centurion. I don't really know in the UK if they would be the best example there. There's a couple, you know, and I, I got super into the whole, all the stories breaking around Uria events and Snowdonia. And so I kind of did a little similar regional deep dive there and Centurion's great.
00:13:40
Speaker
Home trails is great. Feet first had an excellent, I think you'd like the, there was a recent episode that feet first did. ah that did like a round table of all the local directors. The one from, I'm blanking on their name, but it's one of the UTMB events up there on the coast. Anyways, it was like that race director. it was James.
00:14:00
Speaker
Archivetrician? Archivetrician, thanks. It was Archivetrician REDs. It was James. It was Shane, and they recorded it like a week before Shane had to announce the news about, yeah, going to bankruptcy.
Middle-tier Events and Sponsorship Strategies
00:14:12
Speaker
And then Ed, who's the host, and it was just fantastic. It was cool. It was just a great insight into you know how they all think about the growth of the sport and what's at stake on the UK side of things. And I mean, James is pretty convinced that like the biggest threat to events there, but also internationally, it's just like the middle. Like he he thinks the grassroots is going to do great. And then the elite elite of events, UTMB is going to do great.
00:14:37
Speaker
But it's that middle that's trying to provide like a somewhat premium experience. It's almost like the world show majors. Like it's all these excellent race directors that want to stay indie. It's almost like they're the most under threat right now. it is It is interesting thinking about for that for Australia. When I heard James saying that, I was trying to reflect on over here. And I think we maybe are in a slightly different position where the demand is high.
00:15:00
Speaker
Putting on events is pretty easy from a permitting perspective, a cost perspective. like I co-run a a local race series and have been involved or said in singing tracks. kind of seen them on both sides. and it It feels like as long as you long as you're putting on a good experience and that experience being relevant to how do you want to run the event over here, you can make it work pretty well. And we have a lot of very new events. Like I said, Diverge is starting up this year.
00:15:26
Speaker
The guys that run Diverge, they also have another event called Kanani Mountain Run, which only is in its fifth year. And that one gone... It jumped on the Golden Trail National Series kind of a bandwagon as such. So it got competitive at the 25K quite quickly, but it's become one of the the bucket list events to do.
00:15:45
Speaker
They've got 66 and a 45 as well. so But that's picked up really quickly. so And I think the the what they've done is They've maybe got 500 people ish across the race, but they just put a really good experience on. So you want to go and be a part of it and feel that finish line vibe. And you it's for me, if I come through a finish line and there's nothing to keep me there, that's a real letdown because you can go and run the trails at any time, but you want to, you want to get a bigger event atmosphere.
00:16:12
Speaker
Right. Hey, on a, on a side note, I was just looking cause you mentioned Vlad, I followed his career a little bit. He's a fantastic runner. I've noticed that he's done a lot of like Indonesian events. Like he's gone to Malaysia and like, do you ever factor those races into your coverage? Cause it's relatively close by.
00:16:27
Speaker
Not so far, though. Having said that, Simone Brick, who she's sort of the, well, her and Brody had the initial idea for this. She's just been sponsored by Kylos. ah So she's she's moved from, she's been part of this to the Salomon team since I think 2018 and just moved this year. So with that, we probably will start to pay more attention to the Chinese training scene, which she was staying with Miau Yauf while she was over there and just could not stop screaming about how good it was and how cool the scene is and the growth. Obviously, we're seeing it with, I saw like the Marlon Stone report, ITRA report. It's like China specifically is just booming from a try running perspective.
00:17:07
Speaker
So I think we will we will start to cover that or at least pay attention to it more. Chiang Mai in December is always one that we we kind of have an eye on because we normally have a couple of people running there. Same with Hong Kong 100.
00:17:18
Speaker
um Outside of that though, not not too much.
Global Trail Running Scene Developments
00:17:21
Speaker
I guess we've kind of gone, and potentially not for the Asian market actually, but especially when we look at New Zealand, there's Dirt Church Radio to cover those guys. So outside Tauera, we don't really pay attention unless we just mention X has done this race and come third because they're from Australia.
00:17:35
Speaker
um I don't feel like it'd the same for the US. We cover the bigger news. We would talk about states. We'd talk about the Golden Ticket Series. um But we um a couple of guys got some interest in the Cirque Series because they' that that we conversed with a lot. So we pay a little bit of attention there. But we don't see that we don't want to go in depth because that's what you guys are for. But it is additive for our audience because a lot of our audience, hopefully, as they're listening to this more and more, are becoming more interested in trail more generally.
00:18:03
Speaker
And Australia is typically behind to a degree. So there's a lot to learn from where the US s scene is, where Europe's scene is, where the UK scene is. And so kind of trying to thread that balance of keeping everyone interested without overloading them with everything, which is possible.
00:18:18
Speaker
it's It's interesting. Right before this recording, we did a a long-form podcast with Christian Meyer, who's the new head of programs at Salomon NextGen. And he was saying, i mean, one of the repeated themes for him in that conversation was how bullish they are on China and developing talent there. And he was saying that um you know they are working, like they' this year they're fully invested on this European ah talent group, the nine that they picked for their program this year. But I think as soon as that plays out and sort of proves its value, their very next investment is going to be over in China, which I think is really interesting. And i and actually, it sounds like that's going to come before any investment in North America. I was i was trying to pry with them. I was like, hey, like, I noticed that this team is like fully European. Is just because that's where the infrastructure is for Salomon? Was there any interest? and And it sounds like if they do do a North American thing, it's just going to be integrated with their European team. But like they're going to go fully independent into China with their next iteration of this.
00:19:18
Speaker
That's interesting. did Did he say that there's anything to do with the fact that you've got the trail team, the trail houses popping up in the US, so kind of seeing that that that youth side has already been targeted? Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, you know, it obviously remains to be seen exactly how this trail house thing is going to play out.
00:19:32
Speaker
Um, my understanding is that it's like a, it's, it it's on for one year and it's a collection of brands that are sponsoring it. So it's kind of like a smorgasbord type thing. And, it sounds i mean like Matt Daniels is going to be a fantastic coach there you know uh Boulder boy just great ambassador of the sport but it seems like it's like a one-year thing and I'm sure if it's successful they'll renew it but the Solomon thing seems more long term and then Andy Andy's thing is amazing it's important to note that it's almost like the exact opposite of next gen because
00:20:04
Speaker
their whole rule set is very lax. It's like you can, you don't have to live in Boulder, Colorado. Like you can kind of be anywhere. It's a very loose association. Like you can have your own coach, you can have your own individual sponsors, you can live wherever and you just have this like loose affiliation with our team. Like, you know, every so often we'll go do a training camp together, but it's, it's very, it's very chill.
00:20:26
Speaker
Yeah. um So I don't think that there actually is and massive credit to Andy because there wasn't any really there wasn't really any development pipeline here in the US from the collegiate ranks to pro and he's done massive work. But um it's it's a little patchwork compared to I think what ah like Christian and Solomon are doing.
00:20:48
Speaker
Speaking to Christian, do you think that there's a space for other brands to launch their own version of this? It almost sounds like you have to like, I think that they are the first movers and then it, I, it sounds like it's gonna be undeniable that this thing is valuable because they're already acting as de facto scouts for the sport going into all of these different arenas. I mean, it helps that they have their own, i think they call it like the Solomon national teams and there's one in the yeah UK, there's one in France, there's one in Spain, cetera. So they already have these talent development pipelines.
00:21:18
Speaker
And yeah, I do think there's going to be, we're going to have at least a two to three year period in the sport where some of the major brands are going to have this very transactional, like just here's some money and where our product and that's the extent of it go perform versus this very tight knit co-located,
00:21:34
Speaker
measuring your vo2 max, uphill downhill tests, mental resilience interviews, all that type of stuff. And I'm of the mindset after having this interview with Christian that that version is going to win out and it's very quickly going to be replicated by ACG and ultra and Brooks.
00:21:51
Speaker
Yeah, because it already exists on the roadside. Most of the road brands have their own version of this. Brooks, Beasts, um The On Running Club, OAC. Yeah, yougo it's already all there. yeah And it yeah, NAZ Elite. So it's just a matter of time.
00:22:06
Speaker
It reminds me of quite a bit of, I'm a big Formula One fan, and they have the development pathway starting from 13, 14, and they're taking them through the ranks, getting them ready, preparing them, training them, work on the mental side of things. And then all of a sudden, bang, you've got a Max Verstappen.
00:22:20
Speaker
And you've got the best driver in the world. So it does, it's logical. I think I was surprised when Salomon were the ones announced it because they've been disbanding their national teams, or at least they did with the... not In the US especially, there was a lot of divestment in the US, yeah. Yeah, and they've done something similar with Australia last year as well.
00:22:39
Speaker
So it's it's, they're obviously... seeing a value in it, but in a slightly different format, which is fascinating. and And Solomon's already thinking so far ahead, it's crazy. Like Christian was already like going as far as saying, like, we're going to start going into other sports and finding like the next Remco, but for trail running, like we're going to pull Remco out of soccer to get to cycling. And it's like doing the same thing, like finding the schemo people, finding the cyclists, like who, who has like the build, there all that stuff for ultra. And we're going to go find them and pull them out.
00:23:09
Speaker
I like that. that's it's goingnna be it's it's a cool It's a cool time of the year. like oh it was a sport, sorry. I just think to ah the Australian positioning at the moment, like we're getting very excited about the people that are starting to come through. Typically, people that are coming from different sports. The only thing we haven't really seen anywhere near the same degree is we're not seeing that crossover from road to trail yet here. So we've had a guy recently... well one the who've in the sport for a few years, Nathan Pierce, he came over from the roads, um, as a roughly 30 minute 10 K guy. So sort of good, but not right at the front for the road scene, but came onto the trails and made us fast quite quickly. And recently, uh, we had our short trail national champs in February and a guy called Michael Tozen, who's 24, 25, is a recent 218 marathon guy and he's come across and smashed it.
00:23:55
Speaker
But like without apart from those, we're not seeing a big big transfer, whereas it seems like in the US, you are seeing that more and more, or at least more of a crossover. Does that sound fair? I think so.
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah. And I think it's also been, well, I guess the most recent example is Molly Seidel, who has come over and, I mean, looks like a natural born ultra trail runner, like out of the gate has smashed, but then there's been other people who are quite fast. and these are kind of like very inside baseball names. So maybe your audience doesn't recognize but like John Ranieri, who two 12 marathon or like train with McCurdy, which is another one of the significant training clubs here in the U S and like, he's had some good ones, but also like,
00:24:35
Speaker
There have been some courses like Black Canyon that have just like had his number. like On paper, you would think that that guy is just going to roll people up. But it it it I think so far, there has been enough evidence to say that this is a totally different sport. And it's not a bygone conclusion that just because you have that leg speed on the roads, it's going to neatly transfer over here.
Athlete Performances and Training Insights
00:24:55
Speaker
And like there's some guys like, I mean, Caleb Olson...
00:24:58
Speaker
I never want to limit him because he continually ups the ante and raises the bar and gets better and better. But like I've been on paper right now, he's like a two 30 marathoner, but then like Jim Walmsley is like a two 14 marathoner.
00:25:12
Speaker
And yet at Western states, Caleb and Jim are equals. Yeah. You know, so it, it, it just, it is, it's, I, I, and I used to get fixated on this all the time, just like, oh, like so-and-so from the roads is coming over and I feel like my opinions there have been tempered a little bit, just seeing that like, there's it almost like a different type of athlete that certainly has space in our sport to compete at the highest level.
00:25:34
Speaker
I think part of that that I see as well is the the athletes that do the crossover earlier on. So Christian Allen is a good example to me of somebody that's incredible on the trails, but has in that same process then gone and run ridiculously fast marathon times, but hasn't been that A to B that takes a longer time to to transition.
00:25:52
Speaker
Fatigue resistance. I think it's like some of some athletes have it, some athletes don't. Like Caleb, incredible fatigue resistance. with yeah Elite, obviously elite. I mean, i think he he must, i mean, you would know better than me, but I am, from what I heard, he did things on that GPT course that people didn't think was possible.
00:26:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think had a pretty darn good run there. Yeah, no, he did. He did. And it blew it blew the historic times out the water. the the The issue with the historic times is 23, there was a lightning storm and they had to pause the race for about an hour. 24, it got cancelled halfway through because of extreme heat.
00:26:26
Speaker
25 was the first year that we actually managed to run it in its entirety and we have caleb olson who is one of the probably top three ultra runners in the year last year coming across fresh off states bit of confidence but potentially a bit of a uh off the back of worlds wanting to do something to finish his year off with a bit bit more positivity and then didn't didn't mike dunston do the full hundred though back in 23 Yes, so Mike did the full 100.
00:26:53
Speaker
he What he did incredibly well was he managed that pause. So he didn't let that get to him and managed to kind of rally once he was able to go again and finish it off. But whenever going to stop for, I can't remember long Mike had to stop for, but let's say it was 15, 20 minutes. It's still, it's a different environment, different race. I think I would love to see Mike in that race now over 2025 and see what he could have done in that course. Cause think it's, there's a lot more time for him out there. The interesting one for us was that was,
00:27:26
Speaker
That was the first time we saw George Knight and we were just watching him run for 50k with Caleb and I was just like surely he's messed this up. Like this is just a young guy getting really excited running with Caleb which to be honest I would probably do myself if I could and we were just going to watch him completely blow but then all of a sudden he goes sub 24 on that course which the 24 hour mark was like the first hurdle that we wanted to see gone and then the 20 hour mark is now the next one which I think Caleb just missed but I I wish we could have seen George and Michael at Buffalo Stampede.
00:27:58
Speaker
That would have great matchup, I think. that that That would have been matchup. Michael's involved on the social media side for Buffalo for a single track. And so he yeah he hasn't we actually did see George versus Michael two weeks earlier, though.
00:28:10
Speaker
at There's a small race called the Razorback Run, which is in 15 minutes outside of Bryce as well. George obviously was great preparing for ah a hundred k so it unlikely that he wanted to go for it. But there's the story that Michael was running ah running across the Razorback.
00:28:26
Speaker
going pretty hard and all of a sudden George comes literally giggling up behind him and then backs off. But George is just, his his capacity, like it and it was really interesting to interview him because he's such a young guy. Structure doesn't really seem to suit his life right now. He's just kind of going out there, going with the flow of it, the joy of training.
00:28:42
Speaker
There's always a question about like will you ever really fulfill your potential if that's the way that you go about it? But It's just, yeah, like there's a lot of excitement behind him. We've also got another young guy, Ben Butler, who wouldn't quite be in that same category, but Ben was in the, he was lined up for the Buffalo 100K, made it 70K in, DNF good nausea, woke up Sunday morning, felt fine, jumped in the marathon and came sixth in what was one of our more competitive fields for for the marathon. It doesn't necessarily look like that from the results perspective because Charlie was,
00:29:15
Speaker
I think, seven minutes ahead of second. He was 10 minutes ahead of third. But the actual guys in the field, historically, would have been a very tight race. So, yeah, there's there's there's some cool youth coming through. I'm really excited about Brady Temple. I've been following her on Strava. It seems like she mean she puts in a lot of work, too, like a crazy amount of work. She does. She...
00:29:34
Speaker
She had a historic result at Alpine Challenge. I think it was 2023, 2024. So that that's an event that's happening this weekend. Unfortunately, they've had to cancel the 100K and 100 mile, another single track event.
00:29:46
Speaker
ah But she had an injury after that, disappeared from the scene. And then i get a message from Joe Dorff, probably February last year. And he just says have you heard of Bridie Temple? And no, never heard of her. And he's like, go look at Estrava and go look at every single crown that she's just taken in Bright.
00:30:02
Speaker
And on a training run for Buffalo 100K, every single climb, like she was getting into the top 10, top five men's times and just destroying these crowns and climbs that had been raced really hard. She's just taking in a 30, 40K training run.
00:30:15
Speaker
And then, yeah, went out with Esther Gillag last year, held on for quite a long time, a bit like George, to be honest, actually. We weren't sure if she was going to be able to hold it to go to the end. Probably had a bit more of slowdown from a percentage perspective than what George did at GPT, but still put in a ridiculously good run. Didn't have it come together this year for Buffalo for her, but she's she'll be back at GPT this year. and I'm excited to see what she can do there.
Youth Development in Trail Running
00:30:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Caleb said that when he was out there for GPT, did a couple shakeout runs with her on the course and, um, all positive and yeah, yeah, she's young, right? Like I, again, what, right or wrong, he compared her to Lucy's like, I think she's like a young Lucy. So thought that was cool. That's high praise. Yeah.
00:30:57
Speaker
It is and it's she's he's definitely not the only person to have made that similarity or connection. i think that her positivity, issue we've we've spoken a few times and every single time it's just like, just this aura of happiness and just stoke for being out in nature and the people she's with and i know it's the youthful enthusiasm that I hope she never loses.
00:31:19
Speaker
Yeah, so exciting times. Yeah, it is. it is it's um it's kind of it's it's To get ready to have to have you on, I've been thinking back about the sport and the people that are in it at the moment. And it's it's a fun time to be covering Australian trail running and obviously paying attention to running worldwide. But we have a lot of really well-known names that are still competing at a high high level. like ah A name you did that didn't say before, ah Kelly Emerson, I think back in...
00:31:44
Speaker
must be 2017 had a fifth at UTMB and a name that probably but has never crossed people's radar but we like she's still in our our world's team that she's still right at the top of the sport and then we have all the way from kind of Kelly obviously Lucy's been in this sport for a a ridiculous amount of time even though she's still think she's 30 or so and then down to people like Bridie the only gap that we do have we have some really good under 20 males Patrick Clark won the youth sky running vertical last year. He's 16 or 17.
00:32:15
Speaker
Just had two really impressive results this year. But we don't have that under 20 female side yet, which is a shame. Which would be seeing all the, well, yet to be seen, but Trail House, Trail Team, Salomon's Next Gen Program.
00:32:30
Speaker
Seeing that all out there going, well, how can we get that inspiration to come through to the Australian youth side is the ah think that's the question on a few people's minds at the moment. um Can i ask you a few business questions for Peak Pursuits? Go for it. what's the What are your opportunities when it comes to advertising for the podcast? like Is there a market there in Australia where it's like local sponsors that can you can partner with? Are you looking for bigger stuff?
Funding and Financial Strategies for Podcasts
00:32:55
Speaker
Are you at a point where you want to take on advertising? like How does that work?
00:32:58
Speaker
So this year is the first year that we've saw Bix, which is Vlad's company, Bix Nutrition. So Bix has always been a sponsor of the podcast. he He essentially is how the podcast first got going and helped fund that whole setup. And like Vlad is also a very big supporter and proponent of the Australian trail runners. Like you you'll see a lot of people are sponsored by Bix, even internationally now. I think he's got a bunch of the the Kenyan athletes. i don't know if you've, um, have you've seen rany japan if you Have you heard that do your YouTube channel? So on the road side, I think he's like the fastest growing running YouTuber.
00:33:42
Speaker
Say the name again. Ran to Japan. into Japan, okay. His name is Jake Baraklough, but ah he's it's hilarious to watch. Like it's it's really interesting. He's like 250, 280K weeks, has trying to get onto the GB team for the marathon, lives in Japan now, just moved out to some ski resort to train with a pro team. And anyway, so yeah he's like, Bix has been part of Jake's story and in bits and pieces. But so we we've had Bix on for a while. And then ASICs reached out end of last year, keen to sort of do do something with us for this year. So that but that was the first time that we've had someone reach out and we're not actively reaching out to anyone, I think, because for all of us, this is,
00:34:29
Speaker
not i i speaking for myself my my profession is coaching and i've i've no interest in the podcast being ah a business for me um it's ah a chance for me to interview some really cool people learn and hopefully grow the sport in another way but it doesn't need to provide me any financial aspect um And I think the other guys would would would feel the same. Like at the moment, Simone is studying and she's got the car sponsorship. Vlad has Bix. Jess works full time. Brody ah works full time. So I think everyone's quite happy with with that side, which is which is nice because it gives us the opportunity to not have to reach out. However, having some money coming in so that we can look at upgrading certain things or doing some some collective events because Vlad's in Western Australia.
00:35:13
Speaker
um jess is in canberra and then the three of us in victoria like it's it's be like going from the east to the west coast and trying to get everyone together we literally are that so that side of things would would be nice uh but yeah no we we're not not actively at least at this point reaching out to people that's yeah that's fine yeah i think there's pros and cons to both approaches i was just curious like what your thought process was on it i i mean i think one of the many pros is Uh, the audience can know with a hundred percent certainty that this is something that you genuinely love doing. And every episode that comes out is like just backed by passion and it's not financially motivated or you don't feel pressure to get X amount of episodes out each month because you have to fulfill sponsor obligations. And yeah, i mean, episodes with like little to no ad reads is a, it's amazing.
00:36:01
Speaker
Yeah, and when we recently opened up a Patreon side to it as well, which we, obviously it's an opportunity to do that, they sort of add free content and we wanted to have a bit more of a deeper engagement with some of our listeners and it's been been really fun, like just putting out questions to them and getting the feedback and having a bit of chat and i think that,
00:36:21
Speaker
personally I'm I don't need anything more if I'm signing up someone's Patreon it's just because I really like what they do and I want to support them like Brett with conversational pace is a great example of I don't need any more value from him because I just love listening to shoe reviews I think they're like you guys do the the best trail shoe like roundups essentially that are out there and so i want to support so i think that there's a lot of people have come on like that and we necessarily the money that we get from that i'm not quite sure what we're going to use it for yet but it again it just gives us ourselves opportunities to not have to go and chase stuff if we do do need to fund projects that we want to do and it's and then like with asics that's who jess is sponsored by and so
00:36:59
Speaker
Asics is obviously a really good brand. They've got lots of great shoes on the road and trail scene, but they're really invested in the the Australian trail market. They're one of the very few sponsors that has a a roster of athletes, we say. And so partnering with them is a very natural fit for the podcast. um Let me ask you this. And i I'm asking it genuinely out of curiosity.
00:37:19
Speaker
And I'm not really sure how to frame it otherwise. Like, why are you so interested? And why do you know so much about the American ultra running scene? In addition to what you know about Australia. Because like I think about myself and i'm um I'll ask myself the same question after you
Trail Running Media Evolution and Challenges
00:37:34
Speaker
answer. like Why don't I know as much about the Australian scene, but like you know comparatively more about something that isn't you know native to you. Yeah.
00:37:42
Speaker
that The US has, well, a ah A, the US speaks English, right? So that is a a significant aspect to it. Fortunately, now we have great software that can translate any any language and and make me not have to learn French or Spanish to be able to understand it. So that's probably why I don't follow the the European market. But i also think that the media side of the US is by far leading the charge.
00:38:03
Speaker
whether it's iron far historically when we're reading their articles or then when free trail or pillows or whatever Dylan originally called it started up as like that was if you wanted to learn more about the sport from like avoid the high level surface stuff that you see locally and actually get deeper into it that was the only option at least that was the only option that crossed my path when I got into trail running and then I personally am somebody that is inch wide, mile deep is the best way to put it. So my thing is trail running.
00:38:39
Speaker
The main thing is coaching, but learning about any avenue that's related to trail that could possibly make me a better coach is interesting. And then I just, I think I've just become fixated on trail running. And then the US side of things that you get invested in the stories. And so you want to go deeper into it. And then That bleeds across into more of the European market. And then obviously I have the home of the UK, so I'm kind starting to dig more into there. And it's ah every door you open reveals another 10 that you want you want to go down. And so, yeah.
00:39:11
Speaker
How come, and like from what I can tell, you're a fantastic host and Peak Pursuits is like incredible. Why hasn't that equivalent, why hasn't there been a free trail in Australia?
00:39:24
Speaker
like Why did you have to go to the US to satisfy that itch? If you had to guess, I know it's probably a complicated question, but. Yeah, I think, and this is tricky. So I only moved to Australia in 2019. So I don't, I'm still trying to fill in the gaps with the pre-COVID knowledge. And there are some people over here that, we have this one guy, Ian Best, who is ah more of is more of a ah mountain running kind of nerd now. he he's He's putting together a ah book on the history of mountain running, full stop, and and really focusing in on Australia.
00:39:57
Speaker
I would love to read that if he has a copy. Yeah, well, he he he would love to ah to to pick your brain a little bit as well. He wanted me to see if you had any understanding of the uphill racing scene in in the US and the history there, or if not, if you ah had someone that you could put him in touch with because yeah he's he's he's been great to help help fill fill in those gaps. but So with the knowledge that pre-2019 think that the sport just wasn't evolved enough in Australia i think that there have been have been people attempt to do it I don't think he really went for this approach but Mael Bacchhausen had the Stokely podcast for a while and
00:40:34
Speaker
And i don't, ah to be honest, i I haven't looked if he's released anything recently, but Madge is all over the world. I can't imagine he has the time to also be recording podcasts at the moment.
00:40:45
Speaker
But again, that was more interviewing the names of the sport. Whereas what Peak Pursuits is really trying to do is, yes, we're interviewing people like yourself because it's super interesting to gain more context to our listeners of the worldwide podcast.
00:40:58
Speaker
trail experience and also but when i says as as i said when i reached out to you when i heard you on james's centurion podcast cost and you wanted to learn more about the new zealand and the australian and the asian market like we are the leading podcast here and and it would be cool to kind of hit get you to ask us questions and make us think a bit about it and then also yeah turn that turn that tables but I think it's just a case of where were that they when Simone and Brody first came up with the idea it was right time, right place. There were pre-existing podcasts in Australia that for one reason or another, I don't think
Live Streaming and Event Coverage
00:41:29
Speaker
had hit the mark. I wasn't listening to a single Australian running podcast or New Zealand before people shoots.
00:41:36
Speaker
I think that the likes of yourself and Dylan and others have set an expectation of quality of host. And so whether it's the questioning or just the the the style of of hosting, I will get frustrated if people interrupt or if the audio quality is bad, if the questions just don't. like you know when you listen to a podcast and somebody asks a question and then they just go on straight to the next thing. There's no there's no follow-ups. There's no depth to it.
00:42:03
Speaker
There's no sub-context. And so i think that was probably a limiting factor for me personally going into it and and potentially if i'm if i'm the if I'm not the only one thinking that.
00:42:14
Speaker
But i just I do just think it is a case of with the Golden Trail coming into it, UTA growing again, because there was a couple of years where UTMB did UTMB things. um And post-COVID, there was just a real big push in the trail running scene here. And that was the right time for for a free trial equivalent to start to come through but that said we don't have an interest to really launch down the other media avenues like we do a little bit of post-race content at events if we're there to put on socials but we're not gonna be doing trail gating coverage um i don't i
00:42:53
Speaker
That would be so cool. Sorry to interrupt, but if you did that for Buffalo Stampede, for UTA, for Cusco, for GPT, I would eat that up. Like if you had like a studio on the GPT site, yeah like the the background was the trail, I would eat that up. I think this comes down to the question of like, this is your business, right? Like you've you've been able to move into this full time. this That was your goal, amongst some others that I'm really curious to hear about. But And and we yeah we have never actually spoken this as a podcast, so I can't speak for the others here, but I feel like i was definitely with Vlaab and Bix and me with my work, there's not the interest and the desire to push this into a full-time position. And so taking a week off to do a Buffalo Stampede and a UTA and a COSI and a GPT coverage, like it's ah it's a big ask.
00:43:36
Speaker
And so it's it's and ah it's something that I think if an event asked us, so for example, Ultra Trail Australia last year, at least, they had Dirt Church Radio doing commentary or doing some some live stuff around there. And then they had the live stream, which was hosted by Jackie Bell. if I think if those sort of questions came our way, at least a couple of us or a few of us would would be able to do that. But I think the making trail gating or the equivalent a consistent part of our package, our offering would be challenging.
00:44:05
Speaker
Yeah. Well, as I'm listening to that, I think the, and this is maybe for anyone that's listening to that wants to carry that baton. I personally think it's liberating that there really isn't a moat in media that is like insurmountable. So I don't think that talent is the issue. That's certainly not the issue.
00:44:26
Speaker
I don't really think even money's the issue because I think you can find ways to do partnerships in really creative ways, especially on the media front. It sounds like it's purely just ambition and and like, and like just having other priorities, like for example, just being a great coach.
00:44:38
Speaker
Yeah. You know, um because I know that like for us, yeah, absolutely. It was a goal of mine from the get go to do this full time and to like expand the podcast into race coverage and going to trade shows and covering that type of stuff too. so um Maybe that's what's unique on the US front is just it just so happens that the people who do media in the US s just had the ambition to make this sort of like their life's work full time and have all the symbolic gestures of like setting up at races and leaving the studio stuff like that.
00:45:11
Speaker
quite Quite possibly. And I think there's, there probably are the people in that mega office and they got the other guys are like, no, we would do that if, uh, if the opportunities arose, but the fact that we haven't pursued it is probably the, the evidence to me. Um, I think somebody like Madge would be a, an example of someone with the, the sporting knowledge ah to, to sort of do those, do those sort of things. But it would be, what's his work. What does he do for work? Um,
00:45:36
Speaker
That's a really good question. um He is very involved in the World Trail Majors. I don't know in what capacity. He has, he pops up across the whole world. He's done, he has done work with Singletrack before. He's been out with Broken Arrow for a number of years, but I couldn't actually tell you what his actual role is.
00:45:53
Speaker
if that he's he's he's one of those guys where he has a lot of things in the sport he's very well known like you hear where james elson he was the guy that put southdown's way forward to world trail majors because he was speaking to the the hong kong guys like dylan ne mentions his name a bunch he just like pops up in all these places but i actually couldn't tell you what his official job title is okay so he he could be the one yeah you or he could be one of the ones could be one of the ones Yeah.
00:46:22
Speaker
And I think that something that is interesting that we definitely don't do, the only the only event with the live stream is UTA. And that's only because it became a major last year. How much weight do you think having a live stream means for...
00:46:37
Speaker
the events in the US that does that, how much does that add to the capacity of the media, but also to the to the knowledge about that race? Increasingly, it's definitely a pain point as a fan of the sport. I mean, for example, we're recording this Thursday, April 9th. This weekend, there is the Gorge Waterfalls events happening, Lake Sonoma, which is another historical classic event here in the US, UTMB Istria, the Cal Moro Sky Race, there's so much on the calendar. And the only one of those that I can actually tune into is Lake Sonoma.
00:47:08
Speaker
Yeah. Um, obviously, obviously free trail is putting out a fantastic pre and post race product for gorge, but, uh, no live stream there. And so what I have the opportunity to do this weekend is tune into Lake Sonoma, even though I would say, i mean, yeah, in terms of like the competition, like there is, there are some good individuals on those start lines, but it's not, it's not as deep as gorge.
00:47:31
Speaker
Um, yeah. So we're just at this weird point where, uh, We've had a taste of live streams at numerous key events, and then you do notice it when it's gone.
00:47:42
Speaker
And as a media person, I certainly have less depth to refer to and like really specific insightful comments post race in our episodes if that's not there.
00:47:53
Speaker
So, and we'll have the same issue, for example, the Canyon's 100K, which is ah it's a, it's UTMB event, obviously, and it's a super golden ticket race for Western states. There's going to be no live stream there.
00:48:05
Speaker
UTMB has tried it. They didn't like the product. They but they they took it out. and um And then Coca-Cola is happening. That will be a live stream. So it's it's just, i I'm at the point where I think it's, in a lot of ways, it's essential.
00:48:19
Speaker
And I'm feeling the pain point of it not being there. And I am really, I'll be very curious to see what happens in the next two to three years as to whether all of the most competitive and important events from that standpoint coalesce with like the full media suite experience.
00:48:38
Speaker
Because right now it's very disjointed. Like I think the, the way the stats are going to play out, I think like it was like 30 or 40% of the golden ticket races for Western states didn't have a live stream, including recently Chianti, which was terrible.
00:48:50
Speaker
Yeah. um yeah so we're just in weird spot this is something that i i've spoken to joe about quite a bit because for gpt for example with world trail majors they were exploring it last year but the cost essentially was prohibitive from it so putting potentially a race director hat on even just just from conversations you have do do you think the live streams are worth the investment for race directors I think it's worth the investment if you're willing to vertically integrate it into your pre-existing business model.
00:49:19
Speaker
So I think it has to become a core competency of the event. I think someone like Joe and Colin at GPT, if they're passionate about it, they probably have to learn the softwares and learn the tech, the Starlinks, the cameras, the drones.
00:49:35
Speaker
and then find volunteers ah in the community who can be a part of the team. I mean, that's basically what Erivaipa did. You know, Jamil Curry is like a classic tinkerer and early adopter of technology and pretty sure he just taught himself. um I've had, I've been privy to some of the behind the scenes and it is very, very impressive what Jamil has done.
00:49:56
Speaker
But I don't think there's a i don't think there's a massive moat there. I think if you're inspired and motivated to figure out the back end and put together even like a primitive model of it and then just iterate over time, I think it's totally there.
00:50:10
Speaker
um Similar to media. i think I genuinely think it's just ambition. It's a function of ambition. Also, i don't i guess it depends on the cost and like where you're importing a product from. Like I know we've considered outsourcing the live stream product to Mount now post before, because they just do a fantastic job and they gave us a very reasonable price point. Um, and we ultimately didn't go with it mostly because we were just at a weird point financially where like we had a couple sponsors that dropped that could have footed that bill.
00:50:42
Speaker
Um, but Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't i don't see it as ah as as big of a hurdle as others might see it as. Okay. is that The figures that Joe had spoken to me, like were he's sort of that 50 to 100 grand range in Australian. So I don't know, 0.7 for...
00:51:04
Speaker
for us which seems pretty hard but then i think i heard that the tenerife live stream was going to cost 73 000 euros or something something like that so yeah something like that i think it depends on where it's coming from too like are is all the tech and the people are they coming from like the melbourne area or are they being outsourced from like across the pond yeah like travel how much How much of it is like travel versus tech and people?
00:51:25
Speaker
No, is especially given we're we're we're now getting these events like Buffalo Stampede and GPT and then UTA but already has it where we are getting these competitive races. We're getting these head-to-head battles, which would be awesome to see, much like Chianti would have been.
00:51:39
Speaker
And that there seems to be a growing interest in following the sport, but I also feel like there's a barrier at the moment where there's only so much I think a podcast can do. And until you can see it, until you can live it with the athlete, that's when the real sort of spectator element can start to grow. Because like i I personally, I'm still not sure why, but I can happily watch a dot for 250 miles.
00:52:02
Speaker
But it's not that captivating for the majority of people. Whereas when you can see it and you can see the head-to-head pass, you can see how they come through A stations, you can see how they interact. That's when you start to really love or potentially hate an athlete. But either way, it's going to keep you and and engaged.
00:52:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's and it is interesting how dependent our side of the media is on the event production itself. And what we can... because but Yeah, again, like there's only so much that we can pull from dot watching. And there's only so much we can pull from post-race reports.
00:52:35
Speaker
So much comes from... i mean, if I go back and look at like the recaps that we do on the events that we cover, i would say... The best ones are when we cover Western States and Cocodona and Black Canyon.
00:52:51
Speaker
And it's no surprise that it's because we have that live stream at our disposal to pick apart and analyze and reflect back on commentator point of views and like just moments on the stream where you see a pass being made by a runner or...
00:53:05
Speaker
Like I always think back to the moment when we got that visual of Katie Scheid climbing up to La Flege Air en route to her win two years ago at UTMB. And like she is in the Hurt Locker and like the biker or the runner Kim is like right there with her.
00:53:18
Speaker
And like I got that imprint in my mind and it just helped me understand her position so much better and the questions that we ask her in the follow So yeah, it's essential. And it is such we are so at the mercy and are dependent on how much the event can provide us with.
00:53:32
Speaker
one as you're saying in that one benefit i think the australian market does have is because our races are quite close in locality for the majority of the the sense is that there's often at least one of us from the podcast either racing or spectating at the event and so you can normally recap like this year brodie was at buffalo i was down in tassie for kmr there will be a couple of us at uta there were people at cossey some some will be at houndslow so we we do have that capacity so you get those fresh stories you hear about the race but yeah I think as a as a fan of the sport I'd love to see it more and I'm curious at what the inflection point for the events of going okay now it's actually worth it we can see this as a five-year return that if we want the sport to keep growing like I know that Buffalo can take more than three and a half thousand people so if they want to close that gap to where their their capacity is is that the live stream route and does that pay off it yeah in a certain time frame
00:54:26
Speaker
I feel very strongly that in this era where it's in a lot of ways it is uncertain for a lot of events out there. One of the best things you can do is control your own fate and vertically integrate as much as possible. And I keep referencing Aravipa, but they're sort of like the amazing case study here.
00:54:44
Speaker
Everything that most events outsource to service providers. So like someone to print your t-shirts and screen print, someone to do your bibs, someone to do your timing, someone to do your finish line food, someone to do your awards. Like Aerovipa has brought all of that in-house, including the live stream.
00:55:03
Speaker
And i think if event directors, including myself, I have to practice what I preach. The more I can think of like controlling my own fate and just taking action there and and learning and just in that constant mindset of like, what, how can I get better at my craft?
Participant Experience vs. Media Coverage
00:55:17
Speaker
I think like picking up this live stream stuff is probably critical. But again, it also depends on what type of event you want to be like, are these events on the Australian scene? Like, are they, are they perfectly happy staying in sort of like a participation based business model where it's totally focused on making sure that the middle and the back of the pack have this like supreme experience out there or do they feel like they want to dip more into the professional side of things and create this amazing entertainment product for fans and brands and and whatnot and i'm not saying that they're mutually exclusive but like we certainly have events in our stable where it's like we care not that much about the pros like if they come and race amazing and maybe we'll leverage that with content and social media but like
00:55:59
Speaker
You know, we have an event in two months, Twisted Fork over in Park City, Utah. And like that is so squarely focused on on the mid and the back of the pack, just like the average runner. And we're proud of that. And like, I don't think we'll ever touch live stream stuff or pre-post-race interviews. At least not, it wouldn't be like our, it's not top of mind for us because that's just not what that event's about, you know?
00:56:20
Speaker
So when you were talking about looking at live streams for your events, were you talking about Buffalo Run? Yeah. Probably Buffalo run just because, um I mean, it's also like just, it I believe Antelope Island, which is this island in the middle of the Great Salt Lake, just west of Salt Lake City, Utah here. I think it's one of the great natural wonders of the world. And so a part of is just like, I just want to showcase this area. It's like a geographic anomaly.
00:56:43
Speaker
It's just this amazing ecosystem. It's a funky place to run. Yeah. And so like almost independent of like the pro side of things too. yeah just want to showcase it.
00:56:55
Speaker
ah That's probably where GPT will come down as well. Obviously, it's going to have the competitive side of things. or That's the goal being World Trail Majors. But it is a unique landscape in the even in the Australian environment. So I think that's there is a benefit there. Going back to one of the questions you posed to me earlier and reflecting it back to yourself, what is your impression of the Australian trail running market?
00:57:19
Speaker
I mean, I'm impressed by it. You know, I think that it is ah there's a uniqueness to it. um There's a lore to it. Like I said, like, I feel like each of those four events that I referenced earlier have their own like special allure to them.
00:57:34
Speaker
I think there are some really cool athletes that have come out of the scene that burst through the international side that are like critical to the history of our sport. And so, I mean, bottom line, just like it's important to the scene. And if you take Australia out of the mix, like there is an incompleteness to, you know, what makes our sport special.
00:57:50
Speaker
So, um, yeah, that's the overhead for me. has anything in the last outside of maybe of lucy has anything in the last five years since been doing the podcast really captured your attention in australia before you then have been making an active pursuit of learning it's mostly just been uta i would say like when tim tollison would go there and race and win dylan bowman um yeah any any americans going over there to race as part of like the ultra trail world tour
00:58:21
Speaker
Hayden Hawks going to Cusco, stuff like that.
Local vs. Global Trail Running Coverage
00:58:24
Speaker
you know like That perks perks up for me. um But yeah, like it almost goes back to the question I asked you. like I'm asking myself, why am I so insular? you know like Why am I just so preoccupied with my home events here in the Western US.
00:58:42
Speaker
I mean, I would even say in a lot of ways, like, forget about Australia for a second. I'm ignorant of so many regions in the United States. Like I pay like zero attention currently to the Southeast, the Midwest, a little bit around the Northeast, but like, I am so like my two worlds basically are the western us because that's like where like all the brands the athletes the media congregate in our neck of the woods for the sport and then chamonix yeah yeah and it's just and it's just these like two little specks in the ocean you know and i'm just thinking to myself like why is it that like
00:59:23
Speaker
I'm so insular and so many others from the US are so insular about the sport. Whereas like if I talk to, I talk to you and you know, like almost just as much about our scene as I do.
00:59:36
Speaker
I talked to like Francesco Pupi, who knows like even more than I do about my own scene, including Europe. i'm sure And I'm sure if I just did that exercise, I talked to Stu in South Africa who runs the Cape Town events. like I just find myself talking all these people across the world who are just way more Renaissance in worldly than I am.
00:59:54
Speaker
And I don't know why, like, why is it that like the U S gets to rest on its laurels and everyone else like has done their homework on us and his fans of the sport, but then they also know their own scenes. Well, so I'm kind of, I don't know. I don't know why, like why it's like that. When you think to all all the events that you do coverage, the names that are there, do you feel like the US just has a bit more of a robust kind of competitive side to the trail scene? And and therefore, so for for us to cover the Australian trail races, like, yes, there's a lot that there are names we're focusing on. There are definitely more names that are coming up now. But as said before, like there is a a hard stop in terms of how much we can dedicate to it. Whereas it feels like from the outside that the US has...
01:00:36
Speaker
a lot more names, there were a lot more races, different different styles of races, especially now with explosion the explosion of the 200 milers, like you could cover a pretty competitive field, it feels like every weekend.
01:00:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and the more I've, like, the more I'm hearing you talk though, the more I think like part of the reason why there's more athletes over here, it's just simply because they are getting all this attention internationally from folks in Australia and Europe and it's just like amplifying it and I'm sure there's like a similar depth in Australia and whatnot and there's just a lack of attention. um I mean, it's even debatable, like just talking with Christian earlier, he's of the mindset that like the competitive heartbeat of the sport ultimately is going to be in Europe. And on paper, you could argue that like Europe is way bigger participation wise than the US. There's better feeder systems, better opportunities for like young people to develop and go pro. And I mean, until recently it took two decades for an American man to win UTMB.
01:01:29
Speaker
um So it's debatable that we even have the best athletes necessarily. Like, So it's ah it sounds to me like we just have this unreasonable media advantage.
01:01:40
Speaker
Like I said, I think it's just ambition. I just think we're like crazy entrepreneurial and ambitious. And that has allowed us to win in media, which then I think to some extent artificially amplifies the importance of what's going on over here.
01:01:54
Speaker
Yeah. i I've been trying to think what we've been talking about any European. And English too. One last thing, sorry to interrupt. English too. The fact that we speak English and that's sort of like a referential language. Obviously people over in Europe, it's it's tough for them because they're just so segmented by some folks speak Italian, some folks speak French, some folks speak Spanish.
01:02:15
Speaker
ah Over in Asia, similar, just like so many different languages. So I think we also have that advantage too of like being like a universal mode of communication. Do you know of in in Europe or in Asia if there is a free trail or single track or peak pursuits equivalent?
01:02:29
Speaker
I don't think so. And actually, like following Francesco Pupi, who has thought a lot about this over the years, like he even laments it too. like I think I'm starting to see, I don't even know if resentment is the right word, but I think there are a lot of athletes over in Europe who are getting tired of their story being filtered through a US biased lens and they're eager for like the opportunity to control their own fate and for someone who's closer to them to represent it you know?
01:03:05
Speaker
Can you see yourself or FreeTrail ever opening a European... side of the business because then there was a while one of the one of the uh episodes that you used to euro track with katie shide i used to love them because it did a gave us an access to katie's mind which was awesome and yeah but then also to the european scene which was a bit of a a gate or that that existed there so yeah did you you ever see yourself expanding Well, Katie's one of the most brilliant, uh, I'm sure people knew this already, but Katie's one of the most brilliant minds in our sport. And I cannot wait for, shouldn't say that.
01:03:41
Speaker
I think when she retires from competitive running, there is going to be another chapter that is just as exciting. Cause I think she's going to be a great media person when she's ready. Yeah, I love doing those. And, um, i was actually talking to Joe Dorff about this over email. I was like, that would be so cool.
01:03:57
Speaker
And I don't want to come across as presumptuous, but it would be really cool. I think to have, um, like single track franchises in different areas of the world. And it's like, there is an outpost in Australia that like maybe has a single track brand, but it's, it has total free reign and just gets to cover the Australian scene as it wants.
01:04:17
Speaker
Yeah. ah Same thing in Europe, same thing in South America, same thing in Europe, same thing in Asia.
Interview Techniques and Content Innovation
01:04:24
Speaker
Caleb Olson actually gave me this idea too. He's like, you should do that. um So yeah, that would be kind of cool, I think.
01:04:31
Speaker
I've had the same question in my head of whether i I could see it happening with Free Trail, but I felt like the single track podcast, like the the way that you do it probably suits suits that that concept more about the the fact that single track events with Joe and Colin and you guys, i was like, it'd be cool if there was ever a collaboration. This is going back a few years ago and I was like can't live with the same name brand already, but I can see that really working, especially because you're bringing in the understanding of how this works. You've been able to grow a podcast from nothing without seemingly name recognition in the sport. Like you weren't an elite level athlete. You've, you're, you're a fan of the sport that's come in growing to a position where yourself and Jules, Jules, your partner, she's now full-time as well.
01:05:13
Speaker
She, yeah, she went full-time two weeks ago, um, which is fantastic. Yeah, it would be it would be so fun. um Yeah, we would definitely bring up knowledge, some expertise around distribution. And I think just our built-in network would help a podcast get, like we could help provide a receptive audience outside of Australia to tap into this scene. And I do know that there's probably 30% of our audience that is just like hardcore, hardcore fans and they want to, they can't get enough content and they would want this too. So that could be cool.
01:05:46
Speaker
Yeah. When you started the podcast, what was it about your past and your personality and your interest that made you think I could be good at this and I can add a ah unique voice to the sport?
01:05:58
Speaker
Well, I never thought I could be good at it, but I did know that I was interested. And I think that is... a really important point of differentiation that I was, excuse me, even though I've done a terrible job this episode and I keep interrupting you, which I apologize. I'm super excited. When I am the interviewer, um I genuinely come into every single conversation so curious to know what the other person has to say.
01:06:27
Speaker
And I think that that is typically that has proven out to be a competitive advantage because I think there are a lot of podcast hosts out there that are actually more interested. and I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but they are actually more interested in making sure that their point of view comes across. And or that the interview is conducted in a way where like the narrative is like very extremely controlled. Like I do come into conversations with preparation and I have backup questions if there's extra time and I want to go somewhere.
01:07:01
Speaker
But I also am totally willing to let the conversation go wherever it needs to go. Like just talking with Christian earlier today, I was an example. I had probably like 30 questions that I wanted to ask him.
01:07:11
Speaker
But then in the very first answer that he gave me, there was a point that he made that I had not prepared for, not considered. And I was like, that's really interesting. And I want to go down that lane. and then we spent 30 minutes going down that rabbit hole. yeah you know So I think it's just,
01:07:27
Speaker
It's curiosity. It's being interested. I don't think you have to be good at interviewing. I just think you have to ask yourself, am i like does does this conversation just the prospect of this conversation, this person, where we could go with it, and trust me? And i that will go a long way in interviews, and it will show. um And then the audience gets excited too, I think.
01:07:48
Speaker
Yeah. You know, and then they're bought in. But it's still a, it's a big decision to go, okay, I'm going to put my voice into this, this scene. And it sounded like from listening to stuff you said in the past that it was a potentially five years worth of deliberation. I think I've heard you say once that 2017 was the first time you sort of thought of starting at the podcast.
01:08:09
Speaker
Well, here's the thing. I actually think that I had a massive competitive advantage over a lot of other people in the space because I know that it's probably changed just by virtue of being a public figure relative to the sport, but I actually was pretty low class coming into this. I was just another runner.
01:08:26
Speaker
I didn't have any pedigree. i didn't have many connections. I was not a professional runner. I was not like an industry insider. um And I think that that was actually, when I look back, it was a competitive advantage because I was able to come into every single conversation interviewing people like Dylan Bowman, Mario Fraioli, Paul Huddle at UTMB, Courtney, Lucy Bartholomew.
01:08:53
Speaker
I could enter into these all these conversations without having any history with them, any background knowledge that would stop me from asking any particular questions if that makes sense. like It's not like beforehand i had known these people and I didn't have like the curse of knowledge where it's like, oh, I already know this and so it's hard for me to ask this question because she knows that I know that.
01:09:17
Speaker
but then you're shortchanging the audience. And so I think like my naivety, genuine curiosity, and lack of connections actually made every single one of these conversations work because um i think I was asking a lot of the questions that like the lay person who also didn't have connections wanted to know about. And then because I was paying attention to the conversation and really paying attention to single point they were making, I was asking like the next obvious follow-up question.
01:09:41
Speaker
and So I think that like actually like my relative low status going coming into this helped a ton. I think it would be actually worse if I had started the podcast as someone who had like been like a status quo type person in this sport for years.
01:09:58
Speaker
It's very interesting to hear you say that. that's I can draw a lot of similarities to myself and a in that, and I think that's probably why why i people have have told me that they enjoy it, because I'm coming in from that same perspective of I'm asking the questions that...
01:10:11
Speaker
the average person wants to know because I don't have that previous experience but I'm curious then now that you've been doing it for five years and you've built those relationships it's probably pretty rare I guess not in the sense Christian but more rare that you have someone that you have had no interaction with prior have you felt a shift in how you interview people or the style of conversations Yeah, i'm actually I actually lament the position that I'm in. i think I actually think access kind of sucks because then you start to filter yourself in conversations because you know too much and you want to maintain relationships and you are nervous that you're going to lose them if you say certain things. you know So I have always said one of the best things for the health of our media ecosystem is for like new people to come up and challenge the status quo. and
01:10:58
Speaker
There should be someone or a group of people that are trying to be the next single track or the next free trail or the next peak pursuits like that. Those checks and balances are critical for truth telling and perspective shifting and creating a world that is like best for all of us to operate in.
01:11:14
Speaker
So, you know, I think one of the ways and I'm always trying to disrupt myself and stay on the cutting edge. I have tried to actually so move away from interviews a little bit because I that's actually where I'm weakest now just because of like my connections. So they're more rare. And if I do have interviews, it's typically with people that I don't have great relationships with, but they have something interesting to say. I've leaned a lot more into talk shows.
01:11:38
Speaker
Because I think where we ah do stay strong and where we feel more free is like on the long run archives and in our race previews and recaps, like we can kind of be ourselves. We don't feel too constrained.
01:11:49
Speaker
We can say it like it is or however we think it is. And, um, I think that the long-term product, uh, on the single track podcast front is heavy reliance on like multiple personalities at the table, talking talk shows.
01:12:06
Speaker
um, the race coverage. And then like, i mean, one of the cool things is this sport regenerates itself like every year and there's always new people. So it's not like we're lacking on interviews. Um, but you know, those will just be a little, like I'm not doing like 10 pre-race interviews anymore or, uh, like doing an interview long form every single week of someone in the sport.
01:12:26
Speaker
And maybe like someone like Lucy who um you know like I've met her a couple of times in person. I actually do consider her a friend. like i i I talk with her on Instagram DMs a fair bit just like getting advice on, oh, you know Christian Meyer pretty well. like you know I'm talking with him tomorrow. what should we What should we discuss? you have any ideas just based on like being on the ground with him in Grand Canary last week?
01:12:47
Speaker
But maybe like I don't talk with her as much on the podcast in like an interview way because like we're like more friends now, I guess. Like maybe actually she would be better suited to be like a co-host on one of our long run archives. Like we're almost like talking as equals if that makes sense.
01:13:03
Speaker
Does that also fold into the sense that a couple of years ago you were talking about wanting to do the really long form but two to four hour style episodes, which I also feel like you would need to have that level of connection or at least a beyond initial connection with somebody to be able to to go into that level of depth and to keep somebody on.
01:13:24
Speaker
The intro to Vlad is a good example of someone that I didn't know prior the podcast, but I spent the last 18 months getting to getting to know we've met in person, we've had calls, etc. And because of that, we were able to go like we stopped two and a half hours because we both realized how long it'd been going on for and both had things to go on to do. But we could have just kept going because that connection was there.
01:13:43
Speaker
Huh. No, that's great. I mean, i i would say that's similar for like Brett Hornig and I, you know, I think we could very easily do a two and a half, three hour podcast. I think the the limiting factor these days is we both have kids and families. And so like our partners are like, Hey, like time to put the kids to bed, time to make dinner, all that stuff. We're like, Oh gosh, like we hadn't even hit record date. We were already talking for an hour. So um I think there's just different limiting factors that are coming up these days. But yeah, I think that's, that's a,
01:14:13
Speaker
That's a good example. I'm trying to think of like why we never really leaned into like the longer, longer form interviews. I'm always just self-conscious of people's time. It's not even a lack of things to talk about or rapport. like and When this Christian episode comes out, you'll you'll hear me sort of talking self-consciously towards the end. I'm like, okay, like just he hadn't even said anything. I'm just like, oh, like yeah two more questions. like Can I just… He's like, yeah, dude, chill out. like You're fine. and I'm just like, one more question. like Sorry. and It was like an hour 40 you know So I think i it's probably on me. I have to be less self-conscious about stuff or just expectations up front. It's like, hey, like can you possibly, like I'm not going to say it's going to go two and a half hours, but if we do go two and a half hours, like are you okay with that? like If you have to take a pee break, just like raise your hand and like go and like come back. Yeah.
01:14:58
Speaker
When you are on the other side mic, granted, this isn't, I wouldn't say this feels like a standard interview. It's probably more like conversation. And I knew that going in, like that's the reason why I reached out was so that you could ask questions about the Australian market. And I think it's also interesting for people listening to our podcast normally that might have similar questions to yourself.
01:15:17
Speaker
uh but we would never ask each other because it's a given or it's a subcontext curse of knowledge yeah exactly um but when you are on that side being interviewed do you feel rushed like you want to get off them or are you happy to give your time to no i'm happy to give my time but i also like you also put three hours on the calendar so like i'm gonna go hard for three hours if we're doing three hours i'll do like i'll let you know i've used the bathroom but like i'm i'm in it like where this is this is game day yeah Well, that's my point. That's my point though, is that if, cause I, for me to listen to a podcast, I get, I find the one hour interviews pretty boring because they're surf, the high level, the surface level, they're probably regurgitating same information I've heard from, from Lucy 10 times prior. What I want is the conversation that comes out at the 90 minute mark. Like I want to really get to know that athlete, how that athlete's minds work and also the stuff that makes them who they are outside of just their feet on the trail.
01:16:10
Speaker
And so, yeah, like I don't know, but I feel like it takes a certain personality type to be able to help get that out. It takes the person with curiosity to to really lead with those questions and to to keep digging and digging and digging, not trying to expose somebody, but just trying to get the the deeper story out of them. Yeah, I mean, I've talked about this before, but there's a phrase that I i have ah trotted out. I call it content pollution.
01:16:34
Speaker
And this is not new to running, but it's just the idea that like in any given industry, there's a lot of podcasts that And I think the vast majority of podcast hosts write it in and they just recycle a very stock conversation.
01:16:49
Speaker
And one of my wishes for our sport, and it has nothing to do with gatekeeping. It is just really being dedicated to your craft. It's anytime you're about to go into an interview with Lucy Bartholomew or Courtney DeWalter or anyone in the sport, please do your homework and please make your conversation additive to the canon of Lucy Bartholomew interviews.
01:17:11
Speaker
you know like make if If something has been repeated four different times on other podcasts, it's your job as the host to know that and like go somewhere different and there's plenty of opportunity elsewhere like there i i've talked with lucy there's so many like she is so wide-ranging there's so many things you could ask her like she does not need to recycle xyz points you know so that is something that i hope if if there are other hosts out there listening who are wondering like you know what can i do just be different like do your homework you know
01:17:44
Speaker
Was that the approach you always took? Like on the first episode that you did, I think that your first episode was with Dylan with Free Trail. Was that from the get go you were like, cool, I know that me doing this is going to look like hours of research and that level of preparation. Was something that had to come out as you went through?
01:18:03
Speaker
I mean, with like the massive caveat that I was so nervous in that interview and that I was just like fumbling with my words and preambling like nonstop. Yeah. I listened to every single interview that Dylan Bowman had ever done before that interview. And I made sure to ask him questions that I was pretty sure he had never either been asked before or like he had responded to in a way that I felt was satisfactory and that I wanted to follow up with him on.
01:18:29
Speaker
So yeah, and I do that with every single guest. Every single guest, I've listened to every single interview they've ever done or tried to. Are there any interviews that really stand out to you? What ones that really left a mark?
01:18:41
Speaker
Probably Anton. Okay. Because Anton fights back and like he gets a little bit combative in our interviews and I like fighting with him because it's fun. And we both, like I don't know, i'd I like to think that neither of us throw our egos into it, but like I'll say something and he'll he'll like really like respond to it and like disagree.
01:19:01
Speaker
and he'll say something and then I'll say something and it just feels like brothers fighting. Yeah. You know? And so I really enjoy talking with him because he's just a great conversationalist and i don't know, I always feel like I like we've, I've had him on four times and I think twice I've caught him on like what he would say is like a good day
Trail Running in the Olympic Context
01:19:16
Speaker
for him. And then twice where he I think he's had, he's been like a bad day, like he's been injured or something. And so we've, I've just gotten like different versions of him and I appreciate that every single time we talk, it's like we always have something novel to talk about. And ah i don't know, he's just a human.
01:19:29
Speaker
Interesting. it's Yeah. that Hearing the the stories of the i think the the people in the sport that have left more of an impact is always interesting from a listening perspective. it's um like When you, obviously, as as as you said you do, listening back to a bunch of your previous podcasts going into this, I was listening back to the original a a that you did.
01:19:52
Speaker
and No way. Yeah, which was great. I'm sorry. Oh, no, no. it's like the It's hilarious to go back and kind of think- Wait, what did i say? What did I say? Well, okay. So the the your goals for it were to go full-time, which I think even back then, I think it was like episode number- oh It was just before Grayson's interview, maybe like 13, 12 or 13, somewhere around there.
01:20:18
Speaker
And you already had this conviction to go full time. You were also talking about the studio setup that you were you had just built. or you were because ah i think Was Grayson's interview in person? have ah first Yeah. yeah yeah So you're going through all of that, that your biggest dream was to make enough profit to finance the dream of making trail running an Olympic sport and a pro league in the US.
01:20:41
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. Amazing. I mean, thanks thanks for bringing that. I totally forgot about that. Thanks for bringing that back up. Well, and as soon as I heard you say the Olympic bit, I was like, I am writing this down. This is brilliant. hearing Hearing those, like well what are your thoughts on on the version of you back then that were saying them and and how much has that changed? Well, I mean, the first reaction I have to that is be careful what you focus on and be careful what you wish for and work towards because the strong likelihood is, you know, you hit what you aim for.
01:21:12
Speaker
So like for anyone that's starting out and is ready to be committed to something, they should know that as long as they stick with it and they're there playing an infinite game for the long haul. they're probably going to get to where they want to be. So make sure that you want to get to where you want to be. like i I do like I am today. I'm really happy with you know being at this full time and having conversations full time. So I'm really glad that I was fixated on making this my profession early on because yeah it was it was a goal that um like I genuinely am happy with where I'm at.
01:21:39
Speaker
I probably have some bones to pick with myself around the Olympics. Yeah. The Pro League, yes, a little bit on the Pro League and that's changing. Maybe we talk about that second. The Olympic thing, I mean, well, actually, Australia probably stands to benefit because you might get it for the Brisbane Games, right?
01:21:54
Speaker
Well, this is definitely what wanted to chat about. Yes and no. I think that I interviewed Mike Duggan, who's a member for ITRA. He's the guy spearheading the campaign. And yeah the way that he made it sound like is that to make it for Brisbane, it would need a lot of things to fall in the right order at the right time. And I don't think that is happening.
01:22:17
Speaker
But he so made it sound like it was inevitability that it would happen for 2036. twenty thirty six His his big reasoning for that was mostly from a governance perspective that World Athletics is already take like paying attention, obviously, with what the World Mountain Trail champs.
01:22:34
Speaker
And the at the moment we're driven by private entities with UTMB, like ITRA, World Trail Majors, Mountain Running. like There's no cohesive voice there.
01:22:48
Speaker
And at some point that is going to come to a head. And that's what the Olympics can do. It can it can force everybody to conform into that package, essentially, not necessarily just in the 90 minutes or two hour race style. like I don't think you were talking to so much about that, but like the the structure of sport has to have in order to become an Olympic sport.
01:23:06
Speaker
he he could foresee as being positive, whether you're talking about safety at events, voluntary acquisition, trail maintenance and care, he could see that all coming through. So it is something that we've definitely spoken a lot about recently. It,
01:23:22
Speaker
feels like there's the momentum is dropping and I would be curious on your thoughts on this because we heard Salomon making this big announcement that they were supporting the Olympic bid but that definitely seems to have quietened down recently and then you have Jim coming out and him being a against it and I feel like that in it's that that one interview potentially swayed a lot of people who may were there maybe they're on the fence or even slightly on the pro side onto the nay side of it but Yeah. Well, okay, you might get this reference because it's so I think it's UK-based. So my my sister-in-law, ah her husband is British. He's from Manchester. He's Mancunian. And ah they live in North England or North London, Haringey neighborhood. And he has this phrase where it's like, if he it's not that he doesn't like something or hate something. He just nothings something. Yeah.
01:24:16
Speaker
I kind of nothing the Olympics thing at this point. you know like i I think it's i think it it's probably like a slight net positive. I don't think it really changes or hurts things too much. like I think if it goes on, great. And anything we can profit from a little bit more awareness, amazing. I think when I first got fixated on it when I was coming into the sport, I think I was just really obsessed and preoccupied with connecting trail running to legacy institutions that transcend the sport. And I felt like that was the way that the sport grew.
01:24:45
Speaker
But then of course, the last five years, so much has changed. Our world has become increasingly permissionless in like every single way. And all of these smaller communities like trail running are getting better and better at controlling their own fate, taking care of distribution on their own, growing the sport in their own unique ways. And so I think when I was four back then, I thought that it was like the Mecca for reaching like major new audiences and all that kind of stuff. And now now that I've learned more about how media works and what's possible, like just natively in our own sport,
01:25:19
Speaker
Like if it comes great and I'll watch it. I think there's probably a lot of stuff that's just gonna like, whatever, because they have to conform or they have to, you know, change the product a ton to make it work in an Olympic setting.
01:25:33
Speaker
So it might not be the trail running that, you know, you and i love appreciate, but I nothing it. From an athlete perspective, do you think that it could force brands to start pushing their dollars towards the Olympics and therefore taking an emphasis off the people that are doing sky running? would be what would be What would be the incentive that's forcing their hand? What would force them to move dollars there instead of Golden Trail, UTMB, Western States, all that stuff, do you think?
01:25:58
Speaker
ah My assumption would just be the attention that the Olympics brings, that being being an Olympic sport, potentially not in its first first cycle, but if it stays in it for second, third cycle, that that is where the pinnacle of sport is still probably held, regardless of the sport. I think there would definitely be some arguments against that, but at the end of the day, the ah the Olympics is the Olympics.
01:26:20
Speaker
So that's a good point. The only thing that I'm concerned about around the Olympics is again, being a legacy institution, like here in the US, it's like nobody tunes into ABC, NBC, CBS anymore. Those are like our major TV networks. Like everyone's just like watching YouTube and finding creators in like micro communities there.
01:26:43
Speaker
I think there was a rebound for the Paris games for viewership, but it it looks like Olympic viewership and attention has been experiencing sort of a sustained long-term decline. Yeah.
01:26:54
Speaker
And I just wonder, unless they just change how they distribute their product, like, I don't know, like, I just don't know if that's where like the most important attention is going to be for brands versus investing in like what ITRA and World Athletics are doing with like the World Trail Championships and the UTMB World Series, all that stuff.
01:27:12
Speaker
Without the Olympics then, do you think that in the next three to five years, but potentially a longer time frame, there is going to be this clash where the sport no longer has the room for UTMB, World Trail majors, even for fitting in the well the world champs and mountain running that we're going to get to this kind of point of just...
01:27:31
Speaker
Yeah. Really interesting question. Great timing.
Consolidation and Competitive Depth in Trail Running
01:27:34
Speaker
Cause I was talking with, again, I keep referencing Christian, but it's just so top of mind. Um, I think there's going to be a very extreme consolidation of quote unquote important key events in our sport, partly because of the realities of ultra trail running where, you know, elites only have so many matches to burn at the hundred mile, hundred K distance each year, stuff like that.
01:27:54
Speaker
But yeah, I think it's probably going to consult. Like there is going to be a professional circuit that athletes are going to consolidate around. And I think it's going to start to look a lot like baseball, basketball, soccer across the world where like you have like the preeminent league, like, you know, in soccer, you might have like the premiership league and in football or, uh, yeah, over American football, you have the NFL and the NBA for basketball.
01:28:21
Speaker
And I think one thing that I think our sport is going to have to create excitement and hype around is sort of these more amateur and quote unquote minor leagues of the sport. And it's just like lower tier players. Like you still like, there's still media around it and live streams and previews and recaps and we take it seriously, but it's just, it's a, it's a lower level product competitively speaking.
01:28:44
Speaker
And maybe that is where like certain regions of the world play in and even in America, like It comes down to like regional dynamics and like if if a lot of the like quote unquote major league events are based in the Mountain West and you know California area, ah there's still like circuits in the Northeast and the Southeast that are like that have banded together and um but they're like minor league. They're not getting like the best talent but they're still putting out like a really interesting entertainment product. I mean one thing that Dylan Bowman and Tim Tollerson pitched on one of their episodes a while back is this idea of like, think they called it like the indie league where it was getting like mammoth trail fest and big Alta and gorge and the rut up in Montana that like twisted fork Buffalo run, like some of our events, like banding those together and that becomes its own league.
01:29:33
Speaker
Yeah. So in the longterm, I do see a lot of leagues forming, but I also see their goals changing where it's like not everyone is trying to get like caleb olson to come run like they've kind of like punted that strategy whereas they're trying to get like just like solid quality athletes who can help tell a good competitive story to like stick and invest in their rotation of events that's my prediction Does that mean then that the, you you foresee sort of UTMB, say, for example, maintains like the top tier level athletes and then probably, yeah. And, and those, those minor leagues, are they by UTMB or, or they're a whole mix of different organizations or races coming together?
01:30:15
Speaker
I mean, it could be a thing like in Australia, could be like GPT is the final and then it's like Cusco 100K, Buffalo Stampede 100K, Five Peaks. All of those are like races that are a part of the circuit that have these like micro competitions that all lead to the big dance. You know, and here's the thing, like I, I, like I'm a, I'm a big fan of baseball and here in Salt Lake city, uh, there is a triple a team called the salt lake city bees. They're a satellite for, I think it's the Los Angeles angels, which are a major league team.
01:30:45
Speaker
And I'm like, even though the salt lake bees have a inferior product to the major leagues, they're a part of this series that I'm totally invent, like a league that I'm totally invested in.
01:30:55
Speaker
Like I'm following their playoff run. I'm hoping that they, you know, they win the championship. Like it doesn't bother me that this isn't the best talent in the sport. I love that there's coherence around it and that there is a certain quality of athlete that's competing against each other and their stakes.
01:31:10
Speaker
And it's fantastic. Like it's, it's fun to follow. does that I can see that really benefiting, especially like domestically in Australia.
01:31:22
Speaker
It could allow give the athletes a point to leverage off and then get into those top tier races. But does that still keep the same argument of if we don't consolidate the number of series, like if there we still have UTMB, World Trail Majors, we still have...
01:31:38
Speaker
golden trail series like it's there is this is inevitable dilution of competitive fields and and everyone's going to be pulled left right and center and there's this potential for over racing and like i i agree i feel like we we especially at that that top level we're going to have to see some consolidation of events i mean probably even australia even though i said that the market is going really well i don't think we need more we i think we need i think we need better but not more um I think dilution is a temporary issue. I think it's part, it's just a, it's a signal of the growing pains in our sport. But I do think over time, there's, again, some people will see this as amazing that it's going to happen. Some people are going to lament it. ah
01:32:19
Speaker
I think that it's going to be extremely obvious in the next two to three years if you're a professional where you both have to go and probably want to go. If you care about like the highest level of competition sport, I do think it's going to consolidate around like a series or two.
01:32:34
Speaker
And does that make you excited from a media perspective? It does. it does. Because i think I think one thing that we all want at the competitive level in the media is the best athletes competing against each other at their best as often as possible. you know um There is a case that could be made for like just individual matchups at certain races like where the depth isn't there, but like a really cool matchup is happening. like I mean, Hard Rock is a great example of that.
01:33:03
Speaker
But I would love to see year in, year out the predictability of like Killian, Ben Demon, Tom Evans, Caleb on the same start line, Courtney, Katie, Lucy, et cetera, on the same start line.
01:33:16
Speaker
um And again, I don't think this comes at the expense of the world show majors or any other races. I just think there has to be a reorientation that happens. And if UTMB wins the battle of...
01:33:27
Speaker
recruiting all the best athletes, that's not game over. Like there are still other playbooks. And one of the playbooks that I'm proposing is like getting really excited about the trail running equivalent of minor league systems.
01:33:38
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, I think it was you guys that put the idea about World Trail Majors. What would have to do to buy Courtney for a season? That would be funny. But that does get questioning. Do athletes sign up to a series for a part of the UTMB series and that's your avenue?
01:34:00
Speaker
but Yeah. And then, I mean, i mean, that was a really fun segment to do. And then I wish we had done this too, but like the follow-up is, is that even a worthwhile strategy? Yes or no? Like debate whether or not that is a worthwhile strategy to temporarily or permanently disrupt UTMB's plans by like buying off players essentially. Yeah.
01:34:20
Speaker
you know in golf that was that was one thing where like live was trying to siphon players from the pga and they were pretty successful actually should they kind of split the league in half for a little bit i mean players are coming back to the pga now but uh yeah like i wonder how long that would work like does world trail majors have the budget to even play that game sustainably and would it make a meaningful difference in the landscape of the sport if they even took one away does that even put a dent in the trajectory of utmb and their aggregation right now i don't probably not Like, I think if you took Courtney away, that would be really interesting and it would make news, but that was still like, there's the depth of competition is I think going to win out over time.
01:35:00
Speaker
That would be my instinct as well. And I think there's not, we're not seeing a serious loyalty at the moment. Like Courtney hasn't come out and exclusively said, I back the, by UTMB events. And then all of a sudden pivots and gets bought by world trail majors. yeah It doesn't,
01:35:16
Speaker
I, as a fan the sport, I wouldn't really pay any attention to that. i I pay attention to the races that she goes to, but like you said, there's so much depth in competition that I think for you to make a notable difference, the investment per year would be so big because you'd have to get so many athletes and there would have to be year on year because otherwise they're naturally going to start going back to UTMB.
01:35:36
Speaker
And then the sponsors would have to significantly change their investment structure so that they're incentivizing you not to go somewhere maybe or go somewhere or maybe it's you you become sponsored by World Trail Majors and they are funding funding your year. It's yeah, it was a it was a fun hypothetical to listen to.
01:35:51
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, you know, it's it's it is really interesting to see what's happening right now, where it's possibly going. I feel like on the American media side, we've basically said that we've been in like a permanent inflection point.
01:36:07
Speaker
at some point it's got to settle right or maybe we are in a constant period of disruption i have no idea but like i feel like the inflection moment has just been seven years long so far yeah come back to your deal podcast for a se
Podcast Evolution and Creative Shifts
01:36:20
Speaker
i think that one of the things that dylan has done and that you have done and like i guess any podcast has been around for a while and hopefully we are able to garner the same thing is from a listener perspective one becomes very invested in your story and your journey And whether that's you being able to get to the point of going full time and replacing an old salary, jewels coming into the business, you taking on different avenues. It's it's cool to to follow in. like yeah you you want You want you guys to succeed, but also you understand that the product that was on day one when you when you first did that AMA is going to be very different to the product you want to produce at year five, which probably very different to product you want to produce even 2027. Yeah.
01:36:57
Speaker
so like when you think back to where you've come and you've clearly made this step towards the more news orientated stuff i noticed when i was going out through your instagram i noticed the rebranding from your old logo to your new logo sometime around june 2024 which you're crushing it on the homework you're stealing my job well and i'm i was I'm very conscious on this because i am like i i've been i think the first episode I listened to Singletrack was your fourth episode or so. So like i was I started quite early and I said I've been invested in in in following you guys. But when I thought about me coming onto here,
01:37:35
Speaker
and who which podcasters from different sports i bought in different avenues that i listened to yours was the one that resonates with me personally the most and therefore i've probably ripped you off in the most out of it and anybody else so i yeah that hence why but like there's been these been these very clear inflection points where you've made a market shift and you've also said about moving away from from interviews so like ah yeah How have you gone about those points and like what what signals have you been looking for that this is what I need to be going on to next?
01:38:07
Speaker
For me, it's pretty simple. You have to be faithful to the muse. There is going to be an inner voice every single day that is telling you what you should be doing. And I have just stayed faithful to it. Like if it has required me on any given day or week or year of the podcast to make a crazy shift, I just trust it.
01:38:25
Speaker
um Because I do believe that our, yeah, what keeps people tuning in is like how interested am I in it? And if I'm not bringing my A game to every single episode, people are going to notice that they're going drop off. And so like, actually the best thing that I can do is just stay in touch with it. Um, so every time you've seen a shift in our podcast, it's simply because I have been following an internal like spiritual signal to do something a little bit different.
01:38:49
Speaker
Hmm. Okay. And I think there's i think it's very human to and I don't blame anyone for doing this. I think it's very human to like figure out a system, figure out a playbook and just like relentlessly execute it to exhaustion.
01:39:06
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, how do I put this? Like, I think people start to become known for like a six, like a gesture that they've made to their community. And it's like a successful gesture, like people respond to it. And then for whatever reason, they just feel like they need to like repeat that gesture into infinity. It's like a popular band, you know, who they have a hit signal, a hit signal. And then at every single concert on tour, they just feel like an overwhelming pressure to keep playing it.
01:39:33
Speaker
Yeah. But then they play it into the ground and people want to look for the next band. And then there's just this like cycle of disruption. And so, um, I mean, it's conveniently worked out that I think it's a way to stay innovative too, where it's like, actually, if you follow the muse, you'll be surprised that it's actually like kind of insulates you because you stay innovative, you stay fresh and you have more gestures to give out to your audience.
01:39:55
Speaker
Um, but yeah, like my hero is this guy, Neil young, who's a musician in the in the U S. And if you look at his career, That has been his MO. He came into the scene with Buffalo Springfield in the 1960s, but then like there was something telling him to go play with Crosby, Stills, Nash, so he did that.
01:40:14
Speaker
And then he kind of got the sense that like he had played that relationship out, and so ah he like went solo. And then the 80s come around and like the synthesizers invented, and he wants to like experiment with that, but fans want him to play folk music, but no, like he wants to do synthesizer stuff. So the were this like weird decade.
01:40:32
Speaker
And then he finds Crazy Horse and Crazy Horse is like this like band that like remains a constant. He's always jamming with them. And then the 90s come around like grunge happens like, oh, like Pearl Jam. This is six. He plays with them. They make a mirror ball album. And so I just love that he has just always stayed close to his creative senses. And like, even if this alienates people or whatever, I'm going to i i feel overwhelmingly that I need to follow this this move.
01:40:55
Speaker
So we we do the same thing. And I'm sure there's going to be an era where like we lose a ton of people. And I'm okay with that actually, because as long as I'm in tune with the with the muse, I'm good. And we're we're playing a long-term game as well.
01:41:07
Speaker
Has there been a point in single-tracks history where you have delayed one of those decisions or you've you've found yourself resting on those laurels a little bit? I mean, you could argue that like everything that has like stood the test of time is a little bit of that. Like, I mean, we we reproduce the Western States studio coverage experience each year. And I wouldn't say that it's changed a ton since our first year doing 22 or 23, same thing with utmmb Um, I mean, maybe we've just gotten like smoother and a little bit better with our lines of questioning and how we engage with athletes, but it hasn't been these like monumental shifts, but we are always trying to do new format. Like we have this like single track news product that we're like, you know, Alyssa Clark and I are trying to find our groove and that's really fun. And, um, I mean, we got into event directing last year. And so like intellectually, the thing that like keeps me up at night is,
01:41:56
Speaker
how do we deliver this like amazing experience for runners? And how do we I mean, it's been really interesting because like I come from like a very elite biased background with the podcast, but with events, I now have to start thinking about actually what do like other runners want? Like what does the middle in the back of the pack runner want? Like how do we serve them best? Yeah. So um yeah, and remind me the question again. Sorry, I just kind of lost myself there. No, it's fine. It was around like, yeah, are there are any points where you've delayed those. Oh, delayed.
01:42:26
Speaker
No, I would say not actually. I don't think we've delayed. i think every single year, like when we do our year end recap of what the last 12 months have been like, I always make sure that what, what is coming down the pike for next year involves at least something new, but substantially as well.
01:42:44
Speaker
Yeah. I heard you say at some point that you feel like you're very additive and that there is this constant evolution, but my instinct was like actually, as a listener, I wasn't sure if that necessarily felt correct in the sense that there is definitely stuff that you have shunned, like Eurotrack. I don't know if it's gone forever, but...
01:43:01
Speaker
that seems to have not gone. I wrote down a couple of others because I knew I would forget. No, we can talk about all of them. Let's talk about Eurotrack first. I think with Eurotrack, gosh, I love working with Katie Scheid. Like I said, I really admire her mind.
01:43:15
Speaker
And I think there, like, the realization was just like, she's in the prime of her career. She's a full-time athlete. And like, like, I don't even know if I've even told her this, but like, I felt guilty, like, like using some of her time.
01:43:28
Speaker
hu Um, and I would love to work with her again. I should be telling her, I should be texting her this right now. I would love work with Katie again, because I mean, maybe she has the time because she's injured right now.
01:43:39
Speaker
ah But I always felt like, again, this is all just in my own head, not communicating properly. I always felt like doing Euro track with her was putting her in an uncomfortable spot because she's a pro she's colleagues all these other athletes. And I would imagine that when you're still in it, I would assume it's a little uncomfortable to like analyze your peers while you're still in it, you know?
01:43:59
Speaker
And so we, I don't know, like it in it there was never like an official end. We just like, I don't know, I'm a really bad communicator sometimes and like we just stopped doing it. But like she would be like my first call to do it again.
01:44:12
Speaker
It's interesting. A couple of times you you said this and it it sort of feels like there's these assumptions that been internalized about what people are going to think or do. Yeah, totally. I don't know. I feel like if I was, obviously this matters on the personality type, but let's just say Katie has a sort of personality where she is interested in the sport and that's what came across and she wants to grow the European region a bit.
01:44:34
Speaker
Yes, it's ah it uses up someone's time, but that time spent could be additive to their life and to their experience and to their enjoyment. Yeah. I hate imposing. I am such a lone wolf and like, i actually can go a long time without much human engagement, which is crazy to think cause operate a podcast, but I'm actually like a super lone wolf. And so I actually, I, I probably take my own worldview and how I operate daily. And then I like unfairly impose that on others and just assume that they think the same way. Hmm. Yeah.
01:45:02
Speaker
Whereas I'm sure like a normal, well-adjusted person actually likes socialization and talking with another human, all that kind of stuff. So. Yeah. Well, I personally, I would be, it would be great to have that, that back. And even obviously I think Katie has this uniqueness of when you guys were chatting, it was probably what, 22, 23 when you you knew were doing them.
01:45:22
Speaker
Yeah. I also, you know, actually I'm reminded, I think her internet connection wasn't great. And that actually, I think is, that is a really tough thing for podcasting, especially if you're doing like a regular show together is like you and I have, there's a, there's like no latency. So like I can like, you can, I can interrupt you. Sorry if I've been interrupting you. I can interrupt to you vice versa. And like, we can have like a kind of a real conversation. yeah And I remember with Katie, i think just because she's based like deep in the mountains her connection wasn't great and so like i would have to wait five seconds for her to respond and then make sure i wasn't interrupting and then like say my piece and i i think it was tough for like spontaneity if that yeah makes sense that that that means that we've we've had a few of them with interviews and it's it's tricky uh even with like turning the camera off and you still you then can't see someone and you're waiting for five seconds for them to respond and and it's great is there if you weren't going to do it with katie is there someone the top of your head that you would want to do it with francesco yeah definitely francesco
01:46:14
Speaker
Um, yeah, I really admire him. I think we've been critical of him on the podcast before, but I hope he knows that part of that is cultural. Like I think where I come from in the U S like that's whether he knows it or not, that's kind of a sign of like, actually like in a lot of ways you respect that person and you feel the psychological safety to like, say what you think about a certain situation. I think he's c great. i think he's a fantastic athlete, but also he is a great thinker and I refer to him a lot whenever, um,
01:46:44
Speaker
I'm thinking about the European scene or trying to think through an athlete lens. And yeah, he, he would be amazing. So it's also boring if you all share the exact same views and opinions on the sport and how it should go. Like, I would love to hear Jeff Colt and Francesco on the same long run archives and just,
01:47:04
Speaker
totally totally different perspectives and outlooks on how things go but I also feel like there would be a deep mutual respect and therefore it's never a it's not it's not a fight but it's it's a a fun back and forth where probably a bit like Anton where you're kind of stirring each other up a little bit but at the end but it it creates a really interesting conversation A hundred percent.
01:47:24
Speaker
Yeah. would say, uh, yeah, if we're franchising this thing, like Francesco in Europe. Yeah. But he should, he should also build his own thing. You know, I think, I think I've heard him write and talk about this so much about, you know, creating something in Europe and controlling the narrative. And I think he'd be a great person for it.
01:47:42
Speaker
he He would, but also, you know, exactly how hard it is to create a successful podcast, one that can actually not just take up your time, but can reimburse you for us. And and and so, again, someone like yourself or a existing media house to come in and say, hey, we think you would be an amazing podcaster.
01:47:59
Speaker
Here is the foundation for how to do it. All we want you to do is be you. That sounds like a very successful formula. Yeah. Yeah. Now that I think about it more too, I think like, like the analogy again, this is for all the basketball folks out there. It's like, think about a basketball team. There's the, there's the shooting guard, small forward, the score. And I see Francesco as like the guy that's like scoring. And then you have the point guard. And I think the podcast host, someone like myself is sort of like the facilitator. Yeah.
01:48:26
Speaker
And maybe we don't have like the best observations to add to the conversation, but that's not even our job. Our job is to like, figure out the best way to queue up someone like Francesco with a particular topic or theme to get like the best out of him to get like the fully articulated with all the right intonations and whatnot into the conversation.
01:48:48
Speaker
And so maybe it's not as simple as like give Francesco the reins of a pot, even though he has one and he has a good job with It's like, can you get a host that works really well with him? And we think about that with the long run archives a lot too, where it's like matching up like Brett, Jeff, myself, Leah and Brett, Alyssa with the news. Like I'm always thinking about how these,
01:49:04
Speaker
relationships work too so that again like the audience is like supremely entertained or you know the topics that we're trying to cover resonate all that kind of stuff the ones you used to do with jack henzel when he like that that that that those were always fun he retired i i still try to get him on all the time i think uh i think he's self-censored and he's out of it but he's jack jack is uh Jack is a near and dear friend. He's the type of friend where we don't talk for like four months, but then when he's back stateside, we like go out to dinner.
01:49:37
Speaker
But then we don't talk again for four months. And then like every so often I'll shoot him a text he' be like, can you please come on the podcast? And he's like, no, dude, stop asking me. And I'll like, all right, whatever. And then we'll go out to dinner and not talk for four months. And then I'll ask him, we'll just rinse and repeat. yeah So.
01:49:51
Speaker
It's a shame. I enjoyed it. I liked hearing somebody that didn't sense them themselves as much and would just sort of speak off the cuff. whether you agree or not agree. Like the, the other ones, just think about the ah the old, the old format. It's like, I don't know the last time we did an AMA.
01:50:07
Speaker
is Is that something that you've done recently? Or because you sort of folded those into other episodes? I would love to. Um, maybe I should throw it out to like, I should throw it out to the audience. Like what, what do you want me to talk about? You know?
01:50:19
Speaker
I feel like, especially because you have been doing this for five years, and this would go with anyone that's been deeper into the sport to a degree, like I still see myself as very fresh into it from a, like there are people that have been trail running in Australia for 30, 40 years and it's,
01:50:34
Speaker
it's interesting to get given the questions back on yourself and like force you to reflect and go ah like why do I think this way why is this the case why why have we never pursued doing a trail gating coverage at an event more formally like what barriers are in place why do I yeah what's my limiting thought process so it's a hard it's and it's very hard to have that self-reflection without somebody facilitating it whether a few questions or jumping on with you I think the other tough thing that I grapple with is I'm in a weird position where to some extent I have a public figure status, but also the way I gained that public figure status was by being a facilitator and not necessarily being a very specific personality in the sport.
01:51:17
Speaker
Like I don't even have, I don't even have a personal Instagram, you know? And so I've always, there's always been this ever since doing, I guess that AMA, it's been weird to like, think like, do actually people want to hear from me or is, do I just stay in my lane and is my job to be just to be like that point guard type in these interviews, which again,
Podcasting Challenges and Audience Engagement
01:51:34
Speaker
I'd be totally happy with. So I, it's, it's more just like trying to get a sense of like where I'm needed or where I'm wanted, you know, and not trying to impose.
01:51:41
Speaker
How much do you weigh up what you want to do and what you find interesting versus what you think your audience wants from you? Well, the interviews are very selfish. Like I am asking all of the questions that I genuinely want answers to. And I am just hoping coincidentally that the audience feels the exact same about those questions.
01:51:56
Speaker
So all of the, I don't mind being selfish about interviews, but I do feel very, uh, I do feel really hesitant to like make the jump to like exposing myself.
01:52:09
Speaker
you know? And like, do people actually want to know what I think? Do they actually want to do they actually care if I, how I answer these questions? Because again, like if I look back at the feedback that we get on long run archives, it's like love Brett. Brett's the best. Like I, I want to hear more from Brett and i'm like, yeah, me too. Like Brett's mega talent.
01:52:29
Speaker
ah Jeff amazing. Like I love Jeff. Like I just, ah Leah, like, oh, like Leah's a treasure. Like you need to like, make sure like you you know treat her right and and I'm like of course like these are like how do we get so lucky to have these team members and it's and that that's the feedback you know so like I think I've always been like okay like you know like respect that and so I have I have withheld I feel like I'd push back on that a bit because I feel like you're the single track podcast.
01:52:59
Speaker
And so it's unlikely for somebody to go, hi I love Finn so much when Brett's on or Leah's on because they're the the extra person, that they're the the new person. So ah you do not get the signals that people like what you have to say. it's It's not that we get, it's not that I get signals that like people don't like what I have to say. It's just, there's no signals.
01:53:17
Speaker
Yeah. Um, and I, I think with pot, like, i mean, you probably know this, you definitely know this as a fellow podcaster, like there, there is to a large extent, we are speaking into the void. Mm-hmm and even to this day, I am genuinely shocked that anyone hits play on any episode. Like there are numbers that you kind of see that there's like,
01:53:34
Speaker
proof that something is happening out there, but the feedback is so few and far between that for all I know, you are speaking into a void. Yeah. it's And it is, it's an odd experience.
01:53:46
Speaker
And I think that's why it's I thank God for videos, because if I wasn't talking to someone face to face, this would be a very surreal experience. Um, I, yeah. Well, back in the day, I mean, i don't know if did you by chance, do you listen to trail talk?
01:54:01
Speaker
ah Not really. Ian Corliss episode. Did you listen to the Ian Corliss episode? No, I haven't. It was great. Well, he was one thing he said was just that um like for years he did all his podcasts, no camera, even when they were recording no camera.
01:54:14
Speaker
Wow. So yeah, no, that was interesting. I missed so many cues, I think. Yeah, totally, completely. And I did Mikey Demoranti's interview, I think was when we had to turn the camera off.
01:54:27
Speaker
And it just, reading someone's body bodyy language goes so much, but also it's that that comfort of, okay, the person I'm talking to is engaged, and therefore hopefully that means that other people are going to be engaged with it. So, the other, sorry, the other,
01:54:43
Speaker
finishing these off, your job board, did that ever go anywhere? That was an experiment. And it just, I think the reason that went away was it, the hosting costs were pretty high. I think it was like $3,000 a year.
01:54:58
Speaker
At the time, i had a friend, his name is Jimmy Daly, who is a fellow ultra runner, and he had ah a content marketing professionals, social network business called Super Path. And he was having a lot of success with his job board at the time, like routing people to it. And just out of curiosity, I tried it, but yeah, hosting costs were crazy. And then also there was just more elegant, simple ways to like help source that stuff. Like you could just drop links in your newsletter or, uh, like I think then also like shortly after that second nature came around and their newsletter and.
01:55:34
Speaker
their posts on LinkedIn were great at that. And so i it was just one of those things like the unit, like the economics of it didn't work. I was spending a ton of money each year to host this thing that like, I think we would get a certain cut from the employer if they posted a job there and it was successfully fulfilled. It was like 50 bucks. But yeah, I think like we spent $3,000 and made 2000. So we were in the red, like a thousand bucks. I was like, oh, you know that that was a fun experiment.
01:56:01
Speaker
But yeah, that's what it's been. But that's another crazy one. I forgot about the job board. Yeah. It's been, but ah having been someone that listens to a while, is' it's always fun when you go back. ha it's I love the interviews with people, but I also love the research because it's so cool to learn this stuff about somebody and their history and their past. And then you get the opportunity for them to expand on it. And you're right. Like often you listen to a podcast with somebody and you come away with a hundred a hundred follow-ups that didn't get asked that you then instigate where you go but kind of reliving some of the old episodes and like oh yeah i remember you talking about this or some of your old partners i completely forgot you used to partner with like gnarly nutrition back in the day and oh yeah it's uh the i think it was at olev some overhead here earphones you did for a while um oh my gosh uh why am i blanking on their name do
01:56:51
Speaker
both crazy stories there yeah both crazy stories yeah I mean like I remember ah
01:56:59
Speaker
yeah I remember this would have been like 2022 fall 2022 I was a year into single track and we were just start we were like a hundred episodes in just starting to monetize and i will not I will not cite the names of the partners here because that's not fair. or i will i think It probably is fair, but it's not even worth mentioning their names.
01:57:25
Speaker
ah We had like very strong verbal commitments that they were going to sign year-long contracts with us. And two of the three backed out after that. And in between the verbal and the contract, I had quit my job because I had thought that, I had thought that, uh, we were good for at least a year and that we could keep the ship afloat. So actually the very first year of me full time in single track, I was making like $12,000 a year ah because we were out two contracts. I was living off of one and, uh, yeah, like living off of savings.
01:57:58
Speaker
Um, I don't come from money. So like there wasn't that there. Uh, my wife was floating us a lot. Like it was really, it was crazy. So that, I think the value of me telling you in the audience that is just that it is not always like smooth sailing or this really romantic, like, oh, he tried his best, followed his bliss and like this, this, and this works like, no, actually like our first year was hell.
Financial Aspects of Podcasting and Event Organization
01:58:21
Speaker
Interesting. so ah crazy have you spoken about that before because i i feel like the the impression that i've always had is that you started you took 100 110 episodes to monetize but it's this just this being this to a degree smooth exponential growth of single track where you've been able to replace go full time build up you've got the co-hosts which i'm also curious like actually how that that whole system works in terms of like do they just give you their time for example the
01:58:52
Speaker
building up bigger brand partnerships, Jules now coming in. So like, it it seems like you've gone from one to five quickly in terms of years, but obviously there's a lot of back steps in there. Yeah. I mean, I come from a family of public servants, like they all worked in government. And I don't think that like the idea of profit or even being in business is appetizing.
01:59:12
Speaker
Like, I think they see like the highest ideal that you can subscribe to or live to is like being a public servant and like making enough to get by. and you know, like hoping things work out. So I think like my bias has always been to try to like over deliver for all the people that are involved in single track and like really take care of them. And even if we didn't necessarily have money still don't in some ways like compensating them for their time. i mean, Brett and I have a really unique situation where he has a really successful channel conversational pace and we basically do a content trade where it's like, sure and we don't like keep tabs on it, but we just kind of intuitively do it. It's like he does two episodes for us a month.
01:59:53
Speaker
I do two episodes for him and like coincidentally, we both like love doing it. Like I genuinely love doing shoe reviews with Brett and I think he loves doing the long run archives and previews and recaps with us. So it's like a perfect fit.
02:00:06
Speaker
Um, people like Alyssa paid Leah paid, Jeff paid, not as much as I want to pay them, but like I do my best, you know, and, um, like definitely trying to establish that precedent and like, if, and when we keep growing, like making those relationships, you know, more sophisticated, practicing what we preach. Yeah.
02:00:27
Speaker
Maybe it was 24 or 25. You seem to make the shift where you went into like a partner for a particular pillar. So nutrition, footwear, clothing, et cetera. What did that decision like open up for the business, single track?
02:00:43
Speaker
Predictability, you know, stability. So like all of those become year long plus contracts and there's pros and cons to that. The pros are just like, you know that you have a certain pot of money and like a certain amount of time to operate relatively stress free and just like focusing on good content and fulfilling on those partnerships and and whatnot.
02:01:07
Speaker
I think, ah yeah, I mean, that was like a strategy that we started implementing. i think it was last year or two years ago. And the alternative to that was like these one off project based partnerships are like four episode type deals. And i don't know, my thinking of the time was just like, I want people to know that like if we're going into a partnership, it's for the long term and it's a product that I use and I'm dedicated to. And i always felt like if we just did like project based stuff for.
02:01:36
Speaker
If we did like shorter partnerships, it would probably be like rightfully interpreted by the audience as just like a cash grab yeah and probably not reflecting amazing on either the brand or ourselves. I think the trade off there is you actually probably leave quite a bit of money on the table. I think if we did like a project based strategy and maybe we'll do it in the future because um i don't know, like i I don't think it's always about cash necessarily, but Yeah, like we definitely leave money on the table because there's like a lot of like big deals that we've had to turn down because we're fully committed to a partner.
02:02:04
Speaker
um But there was like financially better stuff to take there. ah But yeah, like I think the the audience trust and the predictability to just like do our jobs with like low financial stress outweighed all that. And mean, I look at who we have now. um Norda, Precision, John G, Raid, like We're all on year long deals with them, nor does Longworth. I think this is year two of a year three. And I love it. You know, I mean, it just makes it easier to do the ad reads. And um I have longer time to like work with the products and stuff. And i think it's mostly been great, but definitely wouldn't say it's like the end all be all best way to go about it. It's just what works for us based on our priorities.
02:02:51
Speaker
Yeah. Given that so many contracts are one year long, like that doesn't give you a lot of security. Going, i know like putting yourself into it full time and now it's like, that's that's a big decision to make. And just do that that that extra pressure, do do you feel that?
02:03:07
Speaker
A little bit, but also, I mean, okay, there's there's pros and cons. the The cons are yes, it's it is still a short amount of time. But the other benefit there is we are a growing media outlet. Like every year we've had a fair bit of growth. I mean, I think like,
02:03:24
Speaker
At the beginning of 2025, we had 6,000 subscribers on YouTube and now we have 34,000. So a lot changed in that year. And it would actually kind of like work against us if we were locked in the middle of a multi-year deal when all that growth happened.
02:03:39
Speaker
m So like, I think, you know, I'm willing to trade a little bit of long-term stability if we can actually renegotiate better deals because like we have proven our worth during that time and grown and done a lot of legwork for these brands, you know?
02:03:55
Speaker
Yeah. So you yeah you are having these discussions from a position of strength because of that growth year on year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But also like, I mean, and I don't want, I definitely don't want to come across as too ruthless. Like I'll just give you a great example. Like we just came through a super tough period in the business where last month we had to cancel an event, uh, the Buffalo run due to like literally environmental issues, um, which isn't uncommon. Like events get canceled all the time for stuff like that. It's just nature of the sport. But like one of our partners, like I think I emailed precision and I was like, guys, like,
02:04:28
Speaker
devastated to have to like share this news with you. I know this was like a significant part of our contract. Um, like how can we like find a way to just over deliver for you like next month or at twisted fork or later in the future and get an email back from Angie's like, dude, chill out. Like totally fine. This stuff happens.
02:04:48
Speaker
Like we're accounting for this type of stuff. Just like take care of your family, take care of the runners. Don't worry about it. And you remember that stuff, you know, like I will, I will absolutely remember that at the end of this year and in its own weird, subtle way, it makes me want to like even work harder for them.
02:05:05
Speaker
Yeah. You know? Um, so there's like a really important humanity piece in it too. Like, you know, I was at the LA marathon with Andy and the team last month and just like hearing their zero to one story as a brand and,
02:05:17
Speaker
the sacrifices they had to make and the risks that they had to take and moments similar to what we've dealt with at Singletrack, like Forge is a strong bond and a lot of empathy. When I heard you as a council, the Buffalo Run, there's...
02:05:34
Speaker
You've diversified your business with the events last year with Twisted Fork and then that's grown to three for this year so that like obviously intentionally went to add a level of security but when you lose an entire event you've probably put almost all of the costs that would go into that event already into it that you can't recoup. Like how how has the last month been and how how are you left feeling after that point?
02:05:57
Speaker
ethically, we feel great. Yeah. Financially, we feel terrible. i mean, we offered refunds to everybody. Yes. you had one of two options. You could get a full refund, no questions asked, or you could defer to one of our future events, no expiration on that. Mm-hmm. And I think like the breakdown was like 50, 50, I think 50% took, uh, refunds, 50% took deferrals.
02:06:15
Speaker
Yeah. Like with Buffalo run, there were a lot of non transferable costs that we couldn't just like pour it over to twisted fork. So I think we definitely lost money on it, but I felt good. I mean, at the end of the day, it was a subjective decision.
02:06:26
Speaker
like we theoretically could have hosted the event. There wasn't like a crazy safety issue at play. It was these biting gnats that are bug spray resistant and they just like blanket the island and just will terrorize you for 12 hours, but you're not going to die. So I think because it was a subjective decision, we felt like it was the right thing to offer the refund option. And so financially took a hit, but I do think because of that goodwill that we shared, I think um hopefully it'll help us in the long run.
02:06:54
Speaker
It helps a ton that we're diversified though. Like the media piece of it, the race coverage piece of it, all that. Like, I'm not going to say that we can withstand like five of these, but we can withstand like two or three. So like the the the decision to go into the events, was that purely to diversify where your income is coming from?
02:07:13
Speaker
No, it was just super like right time, right place. I remember with Twisted Fork, I emailed the old race director, Candice Hart, and I had been pestering him for years because I had run the event back 2019. And then he canceled it And then it was just on hiatus for three years. And each of those years I was messaging him and I was like, when's it coming back? When's it coming back? and And in 24, he got so fed up with me that he's like, why don't you just take it over? If you care, like, why don't you just take it over? And so um I was like, and I'm kind of just like an action oriented person. So i was like, yeah, I'll, I'll buy it. And so I just kind of called Jules that night and i was like Hey, like we have a chance to buy this thing. You want to do it. And,
02:07:57
Speaker
We didn't know it we didn't know, but we thought events were cool. And that was that. And then we did twisted fork this past or last spring 2025. And then I think once you get into the event director network,
02:08:10
Speaker
more serendipity can happen. And there's a lot of race directors in the, in our area that are just aging out right now. And the guy for Buffalo run was retiring and he was looking for a buyer and he, we got connected with him and he's like, you want to buy it? And we're like, yeah.
02:08:24
Speaker
So it's just been the, and the inertia of that whole experience, but yeah yeah, never thought that events were going to be a thing. It just, it was all right time, right place conditions of the market serendipity.
02:08:37
Speaker
You said on another episode that they were becoming a favourite part of the business of single track. Is that still the case? Yeah, especially in the era that we live in where so much of our lives are dominated by phones and being addicted to social media apps and just like digitized everything it is.
02:08:56
Speaker
It's like being baptized again. Like you just go to these events and you hang out with people in person and you see everyone like push themselves to the limit physically. And then at the end, it's just like total celebration and relief and partying and I think it's just a great expression of humanity and it is in some ways a religious experience and I'm totally hooked on it. And it's also a a huge thrill. Like it's, it's, it's being a race director is not too dissimilar to like running these events where, um, you're like on edge during the event, you're constantly stressed, constantly putting out fires.
02:09:32
Speaker
But then there's like the payoff of the whole finish line experience. And then you're exhausted for a couple days. And then you totally forgot what you just went through. you get excited for the next year. It's all of that for sure. And you're basically a glorified janitor. I mean, you're just, you're just picking up messes and events are ah and a wild business to be in.
02:09:51
Speaker
Can you envision a time in the future where the podcast element of Singletrack takes a, not not not disappears, but just takes a backseat and you invest more into the events and potentially other ideas? Absolutely. Yeah. And I think this is probably, and I don't want to speak for any other audience,
02:10:12
Speaker
outlets in the sport, but I think this is maybe a point of differentiation for us. I do think in the long-term philosophically, ah we care the most about the local and the regional. And i like my ego is more interested in making an impact in like the Salt Lake City park city scene than it is making an impact internationally. I think it's a total just like accident of my curiosity for the sport and like desire to just know what's going on everywhere that we have had some notoriety internationally. But I like now that we're in events, like I do want to make this the primary thing and add more in the future.
02:10:50
Speaker
salt Lake in the park city area and, It's just so fun. And I mean, maybe even like doing another podcast, but one that is local to the mountain West. And we just like, we use that platform to provide like race updates and news about trail work initiatives and trail building and local athletes. And it's, so it's like, it's so different from single track. It's just like a very like niche, even more niche, you know, regional show.
02:11:18
Speaker
Do, do the, The new stuff that you do at the moment, like is that still invigorating you as a podcaster? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's great. um And like me being excited to be here today is is is is part of that. Like I, every time I get into something, I it's, it's a part of my personality to want to figure out the whole scene and get better at it. And now that we're in like the news piece and I feel more of an obligation and an interest to know what's going on in Australia and in the UK, et cetera. Like being here right now is like the most important thing I could be doing.
02:11:56
Speaker
I like it. On that vein, is we'll start to to wind down a bit. But have you got questions that you came to this with that we haven't had a chance to go through? it carries a lot of it I think a lot of it was just earlier, you know, getting an understanding of the media gap and, you know, how you know so much and I know so little comparatively.
02:12:17
Speaker
And um I kind of wish I kind of wish I had like a less, you rest on my laurels mindset or just being comfortable in my own scene and more uh like i wish I had more of like a and I'm getting it through the news but like a more of a natural obligation to like really understand you know what's going on elsewhere.
02:12:39
Speaker
Having heard a bit more about the Australian market, is there anything like interested is there anything that's leaving you excited? or Well, who are the who are the brands? Like Bix Nutrition, but like do you who else? i mean Fractal. Yeah.
02:12:50
Speaker
Fractal. Who else is like an Australian native? from a brand's perspective. Well, you've got to have Tarkine, which is a ah shoe brand out of WA. They're Phil Gore's sponsor, for example.
02:13:04
Speaker
um Purely, i'm i'm I'm sure I'm going to be blanking on them, but purely Australian brands, own and operated. Bix and Fraxel are the ones that really stand out.
02:13:16
Speaker
We have a couple of like pack brands. um I guess, well, technically 2XU, two times U is an Australian brand. Wynn, Republic, Beth McKenzie's company. Yes. Like we we sort of, Beth is, yeah and I know she's an American, but she's Australian now. It's the same with and and another lady. We have Kate Avery is British, but she's ah she's Australian. Like ah her husband's Australian. They they they live here. Juliette Saul is from New Zealand, but she's in Sydney. So we we count her now. We're on the men's side. There's a guy, Dave Vernon, who won Tower Era who's British, but going for citizenship. So we've, yeah, there's a bunch of people that we've inherited.
02:13:54
Speaker
the i think that's probably, that's from ah from a company perspective, those are probably the the main ones. I think that like we have, isn't saying about how some event businesses are going to be more invested in the middle to back and some are more invested or at least adding investment into the front. And Single track definitely is one of those events that and any any of their events, I know that they are putting a focus there and Colin, as much as he will never come onto this podcast to talk about it, I know that he really cares about growing that top end and giving athletes an an opportunity to
02:14:28
Speaker
have attention and for sponsors to get value out of them and therefore sort of professionalize that level of the sport. I can't speak for other race organizers in that sense. I don't get that inclination from others. I think that Transcend, Ultra and WA, potentially they have a similar sort of ah mindset to there. But most of them, I think, are pretty happy with doing the majority of the the field, which is awesome because it's providing epic events. But I think we yeah from the event side, Singletrack the ones that get me...
02:14:57
Speaker
most exciting and when we look at the events that we preview it is single tracks by UTMB and Wobby for the Golden Trail well the the only thing I wanted to say was just that I you know I really appreciate the work you do and um I say this to everyone that's invested in our sport but I really appreciate that you've chosen to invest at least a portion of your life's work and do it and we're better off for it And I hope that we, that you and I can stay in touch. And if there's any questions you have about our scene that I can read, you know, and help answer for you and, and vice versa, if there's anything that you think, you know, we should be covering um local there, ah we're all ears. And I really want to make a concerted effort to, to make it a part of our, more people need to know about people like Charlie Hamilton, you know, next big star. So let us, let us know who we can amplify. Definitely. And then there are,
02:15:47
Speaker
There's a lady who, she's Australian. she was she She went to the Olympics. I'm not sure which year. Maybe this year. Sophie Lynn. She came third at Desert Routes 50k last year. oh sweet. She's in for UTA. Unfortunately, UTA have removed their elite start list from the website. So I can't go back into...
02:16:05
Speaker
look at the rest of it but she's she's a name that is kind of coming to this later on in her career that we know nothing about really she's put this one result out that's literally it but there's another name that we we're kind of excited to to follow along uh when there's yeah i think a lot of a lot of the restriction that australians have is it's so far to go anywhere asia growing is obviously a big help but it's still a eight to ten hour flight it's still not exactly close it is on a pretty similar time zone which definitely helps but You go across to Europe and you're nine to 12 hours behind. it's It's a challenge, especially obviously everything at the moment. So I think it's there's a lot of names here that if we threw them into some of the more competitive races in the US or the europe or Europe, you'd be pretty surprised. But yeah, they were coming through top three, top five. We have a guy ofve actually over...
02:16:54
Speaker
in Europe at the moment, Billy Curtis, who is definitely a name to watch. He's in for Madeira and Trans... Is it Trans Volcani or Trans Volcaniere? It's coming up. Well, they're both. Those are both races. Yeah. Yeah. One's been, hasn't it? it Oh, well, Transfalkania is next. Yeah, great yeah Grand Canaria happened last month. Yeah, so he did he did Grand Canaria and then is in for both Madeira and Transfalkania, making the most of it while he's over there. Basically, he's another name that I would be keeping an eye on. Okay. That one's for track. Yeah, it's the Trail Running Association of Queensland. Cool.
02:17:29
Speaker
And Bix, he's Bix. Yeah, yeah, yeah. ah Him and Vald. Vlad's got it on lock there. That's great. He's he's been like he's being great. like One of my athletes, Sarah Jane, she he supported her towards Worlds last year. and like he just he wants to see people succeed, and he knows that people have...
02:17:50
Speaker
access to nutrition like as you know with precision it's it's one of those most powerful sponsors that you can get because all a sudden you can feel properly you don't have to think about it and it's expensive to feel a hundred plus grams an hour so i think yeah having got to know that i really admire what he's trying to do for the sport here in his way very much like colin is trying to do through the events and i'm sure like many other people are doing as well but but no likewise if it's been been great to get an opportunity to talk to you it's been fun to actually have i kind of be had the tables turned and reflect a bit on the sport and there's anything uh you need to know about the australian industry or market like from a running perspective we're definitely all ears love it this has been an absolute pleasure thanks for the time and yeah this has been great i appreciate it thanks so much for time