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Episode 450: REACTION: APOLOGIES AND BACKING TONDA!
173 Plays12 days ago
Southampton – What a whirlwind couple of days it has been as a saints fan. We talk about whether we think this is right, and all the stuff that goes with it!
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Transcript
Introduction and Content Challenges
00:00:14
DailySaintsPod
Hello, and welcome back to episode 450 of the Daily Saints pod, would you believe? My name is Greg. As always today, joined by my good friend and wonderful co-host Zach.
00:00:25
DailySaintsPod
Mate, how you doing?
00:00:27
Zak
I'm tired, Chief. Every day there's more news. Every day we think we know what we're doing. Every day, you know, it's just another the the spanner in the works, right?
00:00:39
Zak
It's not the worst thing in the world, put it that way.
00:00:39
DailySaintsPod
Look, uh...
00:00:41
Zak
is It makes it, put it this way, makes the content easy for us. It's just one of those things where don't know. don't know how my takes going land today. LAUGHTER
00:00:52
DailySaintsPod
but
00:00:52
Zak
yeah
00:00:53
DailySaintsPod
Well, look, I called it in last night's bumper extra length episode.
00:00:57
Zak
You did.
00:00:59
DailySaintsPod
I said that this morning we would probably hear and have video apologies. I think I specifically said and boy, did we and
00:01:06
Zak
You specifically said this point, they just start working for the crisis PR team for free, right? Like...
00:01:16
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. Mate, if you don't think that our videos just get fed into the AI that give them the answers when they search, help, what do I do? o
00:01:25
Zak
What is the current Saints fan sentiment?
BBC Interview and Apologies
00:01:28
DailySaintsPod
but But look, we got a BBC interview with Dragan Solak this morning saying he refuses to fire Tom Dereckert. We got a proper video statement from him on the Saints website where he first and foremost apologised to fans and the players and laid out the reasons why he thinks that Tonda is the the man that the board will back to push it on, and did take an aside to re-present his opinion on how harsh the decision was, and didn't rule out further action on it, but at least set the tone of, we can look forward to July now and kind of...
00:02:21
DailySaintsPod
moved past it in a lot of ways, which was which was okay is good. Exactly what was expected, to be fair. And then we heard from Tonda. He came out and did an unscripted apology, an eight-minute-long, detailed explanation of events,
00:02:43
DailySaintsPod
where he... I mean, he didn't do the rumours of him being a robot any favours in that video, let's be fair. It was... it it was it was pretty dry.
00:02:54
DailySaintsPod
But look, he apologised. explained that he'd apologised to the players.
00:02:56
Zak
Thank you.
00:02:58
DailySaintsPod
He explained how and why what took place took place. And... And that that was it, really. That was that was the statements. There's been lots of opinions banded around online from lots of people.
Supporting the Team Amidst Issues
00:03:17
DailySaintsPod
And all opinions are valid. Some are just less informed. Right? let's Let's roll with that, I think, is certainly where I'm going to land on it.
00:03:24
Zak
That's a kind... i don't know, because when when the opinions are like, we should just die and stuff, that's when I take maybe a bit a bit of umbrage, or alternatively, we should just give up supporting our hometown pick a new team, which is just not...
00:03:35
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:03:41
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:03:42
Zak
I just don't think that's how football works, and at least in...
00:03:42
DailySaintsPod
Just crazy. But let's let' let's move, let's save the the the discourse for the general sentiment that we have taken a read on in the fan base until later and start with with the basics, mate.
00:03:56
Zak
Oh, good.
00:03:59
Zak
i think
00:03:59
DailySaintsPod
How do you feel about about it
00:04:04
Zak
I'm not as easily swayed by buy a flashy video. i never have been. My entire...
00:04:13
Zak
Demeter is to be analytical. It's like part of, I guess, what, you know, I mentioned the history degree I have yesterday. Part of what that degree teaches you isn't going be going to get you employed unless you're a history teacher. But quite quite a lot of it it activates that analytical part of your brain. and I genuinely think it's it's the reason i'm I'm good at the jobs that I do now. But I just kind of it's given it gave gave a lot of YouTuber apology and there were still a little too many excuses in there for what I like. But I also completely understand that because if it was as unscripted as they've said, i think human nature is to defend yourself even if, you know, I've been back and forth in with
Fan Debates and Statements
00:04:55
Zak
one of my friends. He's a Bolton fan.
00:04:58
Zak
and we've been back and forth pretty much since the whole Spygate stuff started. And to be honest, it's reinvigorated our friendship by just chatting about it. And like you know he's one of the people whose opinions, I think, have cut through the noise of everybody just asking me what has happened.
00:05:12
Zak
And I think he takes the more extreme side of things, which is, you know, i just don't understand. Like, you broke the rules. All got to do is come out and apology apologize, say say more.
00:05:23
Zak
It's this mess, right? It's like, whatever, it's kiss.
00:05:25
DailySaintsPod
Mm-hmm.
00:05:25
Zak
It's like, say more, say less. That's what you've got to do. And I think he takes quite a cynical approach to it. I have equally taken a bit of a cynical approach to it, but also the difference is is there is always going to be a bias from the fact that I support the club and I'm not going to just randomly stop supporting the club.
00:05:45
Zak
So I think that you know he gave out some points and I said i was back and forth with him. and If you buy the line that it's unscripted thoughts in front of a camera,
00:05:57
Zak
you know i think those additions are human additions and they things that you add in an emotional state. and You said like it's a robot, but I think you know trying to trying to give the content and explain it is good. And realistically, the whole thing...
00:06:14
Zak
wasn't for anybody other than Saints supporters, right? So if you if you cut out all of the noise that's going on, I think one of the reasons that people are struggling is that they are speaking directly to fans of the football club.
00:06:17
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, 100%. Hmm.
00:06:26
Zak
They're not speaking to the fans of Middlesbrough or Coventry or TalkSport or journalists up and down the country that are going to be looking at this with, you know, they are talking directly to you Saints fans.
00:06:36
Zak
And there are going to be people that go, yep let's move on. And I a hundred percent understand that it's a valid opinion as well, because quite frankly, it's only been like a month or so of this. And quite frankly, it's exhausting. And if you just want to enjoy football casually, it's not going to be a big deal. I think that it's quite easy to go over.
00:06:55
Zak
You know, people want to give people second chances, and I completely understand that. And I am willing to give anyone a second chance at anything in life because it's like, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me, right?
00:07:07
Zak
And I think that what they did today is what fans have been crying out for. We had a clip that you know did pretty well, which was talking about how silence the silence is deafening.
00:07:19
Zak
We've been talking about it nonstop. like you know Even when we were doing our sort of evergreen content, it was just frustrating that we hadn't heard anything.
00:07:21
DailySaintsPod
Mm-hmm.
00:07:24
Zak
We now know why, because they were waiting clearly for this all of the rest of the information to come up yesterday. And they have now spoken out and apologised. And for some people, an apology is all you actually need. But for me, it is the actions behind it that will back it.
00:07:39
Zak
Because the apology was there to us for missing out on days out and apologising for what is wasted time. It wasn't really apologising for the act itself. It wasn't really apologising to other teams.
00:07:52
Zak
Because again, the statement wasn't directed or for other teams, is
Impact on Staff and Fans
00:07:56
Zak
where I'm at.
00:07:56
DailySaintsPod
Tonda actively apologised in his statement to the other teams and apologised for doing the act. oh
00:08:04
Zak
yeah
00:08:04
DailySaintsPod
I'll say that. he He actively said regrets that happened. He will learn from the mistakes and apologise to the clubs.
00:08:10
Zak
it He regrets that it happens, but it's one of those things where there's still a lot of answer questions, right? Like in the sense of you have to kind of believe on face value that it was only the three times when most of us know that's not the case.
00:08:22
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:08:23
Zak
And the reason that he's not going to say anything, even if he is being honest, is because he is probably being told not to jeopardize himself or the club any further. And the people that are involved. And, you know, i do appreciate the fact that he, he you know, he apologized to all of the staff as well, because there people talk about the fans being like the the forgotten, you know, forgotten people in this. I don't think it's just like, and but to be clear, all the Wembley money, all that kind of stuff, definitely a problem. But some people's jobs are literally on the line because of, you know, the lack of Premier League money, which is all just a risk that was taken.
00:08:54
Zak
I think that it was bold for Dragan to come out and back him so publicly before we even know what's going on with the FA.
00:09:02
DailySaintsPod
Mm-hmm.
00:09:03
Zak
I feel that posturing from a businessman, the way that, you know, I think even Adam Blackmore put out, like, it's like, oh, it's great. You know, he's he's come out. This exactly what we want. We want someone leading from the front. And it's like...
00:09:17
Zak
contrast the two statements where they were made and how they were made as well. Tonders was straight to camera overlaid with a lot of clips of the fans. Admittedly, dragons were similar, but, but dragons was very like your granddad's having a chat with you on the front porch of the manor house.
00:09:32
Zak
Do you i see what
PR Strategy and Media Literacy
00:09:33
Zak
I mean? With his sort of like golf shirt or with his little Saints badge being like, oh guys, it was very, it came across very paternal and maybe i am just reading too much into it.
00:09:35
DailySaintsPod
Hmm.
00:09:41
Zak
Whereas like, you know, the, the, the Tonda one was like in chart in in front of like the back rooms, yellow curtains sort of staring deadpan at the camera. I didn't think he blinked during the entirety the interview.
00:09:54
Zak
It felt like anyway.
00:09:54
DailySaintsPod
Hmm.
00:09:55
Zak
But again, it's like, this is all, as you pointed out yesterday, manufactured in a PR firm laboratory, right? Which is exactly what you need to do and what things you need to follow.
00:10:05
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, and it's important you look at it through that lens.
00:10:08
Zak
Yeah, and I think but that's the problem, is that the by design, it's not there's that people are not meant to be as media literate to pick up on this stuff, right? And that's not me being like, we're really smart or anything like that.
00:10:17
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:10:20
Zak
It's just that like I spent my whole education specifically looking at this type of thing, and it it kind of infuriates me.
00:10:27
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:10:28
Zak
So for me, words are fantastic. The the cultural side of things... they haven't really committed to being like a change. They're like, we're going to commit to do better. The fact that nobody seems to have had any reprimand at all. In fact, the analyst in question who it was a bit weird for Solak to be like, should speak up, should have spoken up because I'm not going to get into the fact that, you know, whistleblowing in a company is never really encouraged.
00:10:55
Zak
So the idea that he should have just whistleblowed a little bit harder to get what he wanted is a little bit, not a fan of that. And I think that's more to do with his position in where he is, right?
00:11:08
Zak
It's very easy to sit in a position of power and say, you should have done more when it's somebody
00:11:13
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
Club Decisions and Effectiveness
00:11:14
Zak
that's younger.
00:11:14
Zak
But also, flip side, I don't think that it's like a 13-year-old boy that's been told, you need to do this or you're losing your job. And on top of that, what's happened off the back of...
00:11:23
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:11:25
Zak
well to an extent. But off the back of that, you've also got the fact that he has now been given a new job, which by the sounds of it, he's accepted, which means that like, it can't have been that bad for him to want to FIFA want to keep the job.
00:11:35
DailySaintsPod
that toxic. Yeah. That's it.
00:11:37
Zak
Right.
00:11:38
DailySaintsPod
Right, mate.
00:11:38
Zak
So, so that, but there's, there's just a lot of things here and it's very, very difficult to keep level headed because you've got my opinions personally are, because obviously I can feel that you're already trying to make me rap because you knew what you were getting into when you asked me my opinion.
00:11:42
DailySaintsPod
Right.
00:11:54
Zak
My actual opinion is, i we we have to accept the decision of the club. being I don't think there's enough people that are going to be mad about it to to force him out, so what's the point?
00:12:06
DailySaintsPod
Mm-hmm.
00:12:06
Zak
i Actions will speak louder than words. What they do in the coming weeks, the way that they treat everything, if it is to just put up a siege mentality and change the culture of the club from the outside looking in,
00:12:20
Zak
I think that that's a very, very dangerous game to play. So I will refer to actions speak far louder than words. It was nice to hear some words.
00:12:31
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:12:31
Zak
There you go. 10 minutes of running.
00:12:32
DailySaintsPod
That's interesting. Well, look, I think I've got... hu Yeah.
00:12:35
Zak
Give me your opinions because, come on, yours will be far more concise.
00:12:38
DailySaintsPod
I think I've got a similar but different view or, I don't know, approach. It's... it's I think you're right. look this This short of some form of remuneration or anything like goodwill gesture towards the fans, this was exactly what we asked for, right? It provided the clarity.
00:12:58
DailySaintsPod
It provided the the direction. It provided the all of those things. And and to be fair and and and honest, I think that if they'd have chucked...
Punishment and Allegations
00:13:11
DailySaintsPod
whatever goodwill gesture in with this, it would have made it feel more hollow. I wouldn't be surprised to see something with the ticket you know season ticket information coming out.
00:13:22
DailySaintsPod
We'll see, right? We'll reserve judgment on that. That's fine. I think the statement was was really good for all of those things. I don't know if I fully agree with with all of the things that were said and whether...
00:13:36
DailySaintsPod
whether i actually think that keeping Tonda is necessarily the right thing, but i do do you understand it as a decision from the way they have put it, right? Like, it's that the the club was punished and and drastically punished, right? In a punishment that...
00:14:00
DailySaintsPod
even experts agree seems harsh and seems over the top. The club was punished, not the individual. If the FL wanted to punish the individual, they they would have.
00:14:12
DailySaintsPod
I'm, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, Dragon wouldn't have so publicly come out and backed Tonda unless there was at least a level of assurance and confidence that there was not going to be a ban in coming from the FA, right? Because because if you come out and back him that fully, and then in two weeks' time the FA go, no, banhammer, then you look like an absolute idiot. And especially through the lens of this being...
00:14:44
DailySaintsPod
you know crafted and handled through through whatever crisis team are in place, too it wouldn't be the suggestion they make. you know Even providing clarity and onwards, that's just too big of a risk, isn't it?
00:14:59
DailySaintsPod
but But yeah, from Tom's apology and and his statement, I also don't think it was only those three times, or maybe it was only those three times...
00:14:59
Zak
Thank you.
00:15:14
DailySaintsPod
where it was within the 72-hour window, which I think is a like key differential based on the actual rule of law here, right? I think that did it it's pretty clear that the gathering the information is was part of the process, and in it kind of is what it I don't buy into the, it didn't matter because we didn't use it, or I told them to turn it off. It's...
00:15:42
DailySaintsPod
It is what it is but But you're right, right? We're not going to not support Southampton. i i agree with you that the actions will speak louder than the words.
00:15:54
DailySaintsPod
And I agree with you that I liked the words and at least the words were there. and and i just don't know if I'm so also sold on the conviction. In relations to the some of the opinions I've seen about like the bully mentality and the the forcing this young intern to go and do things. I think that the evidence that we've seen in the official writings, which is the only ironclad evidence that we have seen, right? And that has been confirmed through these whole proceedings.
00:16:27
DailySaintsPod
I don't think that's the light that it actually paints Tonda in at all. I think it's pretty evident to me that...
00:16:36
DailySaintsPod
I don't want to say that the junior analyst tried to throw Saints under the bus for self-preservation. i will stop short of that. But it was very clear that his opinions with hindsight were moulded a certain way. right And that's fine. yeah right and And as a junior position, it's perfectly valid for him to have felt and feel those things and that be true.
00:17:01
DailySaintsPod
But I think that if you are putting that pressure on yourself, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's been directly imposed in a bullying way. There's a difference. right There's a difference between suffering under the pressure of a high-pressure environment and actively bullying.
00:17:17
Zak
Well, yeah.
00:17:17
DailySaintsPod
And that's a line that that I don't think the evidence suggests was crossed.
00:17:21
Zak
That stuff's really, really difficult. And like in our actual our own work lives, we work quite closely together on top of the fact that we do this podcast.
00:17:24
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:17:35
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:17:38
Zak
There are conversations that I have had with my senior bosses that I think is really, oh no, there's all this pressure on me and an actuality. it just isn't there.
00:17:48
Zak
I am not trying to say that is the case at all. But also for me, if anything, during a lot of the statements a of the things, Tonda actually came quite off quite as aloof as in the fact that it was sort of just like muttered in in a room with the analysts.
00:18:03
Zak
And then somebody's gone to him and gone, oh, this is, he said it's rubbish.
00:18:05
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:18:07
Zak
And then it's like, oh, there's this pressure. We need to get better. We need to get better footage then. And then because he said it's rubbish and it's not, it's Not not like he's texting this analyst at like one in the morning being like, you've wasted your time and mine.
00:18:11
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, it's it's how...
00:18:18
Zak
Like there is very.
00:18:18
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, that's exactly it, right? And it feels like that's a a narrative that's been drummed up by an interpretation by his team.
00:18:25
Zak
But the the problem is, is that like nuance doesn't cause clickbait. Right. That's, that's the, that's one of the bigger things about it.
00:18:30
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. that's exactly it right? because And that's the difference, right? And this is, i think, the key part to me is, and you touched on it very eloquently, very well. This was for Saints fans.
00:18:41
DailySaintsPod
But what happens is the the press who have whipped to arguably... culpable for a lot of the emotion around this.
00:18:52
DailySaintsPod
The three headlines that everyone not paying deep forensic detailed attention to, like we are as Saints fans, and and even casual Saints fans have been paying particularly close attention to this because of the emotion and the impact involved, right? They see the three main headlines of...
00:19:12
DailySaintsPod
Saints court spying, analyst felt under pressure, Saints back manager. And they miss all of the context and the nuance of actually it's just not really entirely how it played out.
00:19:25
DailySaintsPod
And and that's not to say that i again, i don't know.
00:19:25
Zak
I
00:19:31
DailySaintsPod
I'm still on the fence as to whether I agree with keeping
Management and Emotional Impact
00:19:33
DailySaintsPod
Thunder. is Right? So Yeah.
00:19:36
Zak
I think that perception is reality. And the problem is, is that if that's the perception you're willing to put out, if the, if what they have decided to do is go with the option, that's fine.
00:19:39
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:19:46
Zak
We'll just be the baddies because they're mad at the EFL. And you know, some of the jives were just a bit unnecessary. There's no need. If you know, if you're accepting the punishment, it's like we, if, if you, if you think that we are intelligent,
00:20:00
Zak
why would you need to point out that you think it's overbearing? Like, if you think it's an overbearing punishment and you've been saying it for ages, why do you need to reiterate that again in your sorry statement?
00:20:09
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:20:10
Zak
I think those those sort of things are valid because, again, it's very much sort like, did you swear?
00:20:11
DailySaintsPod
i think I think that, and I mean to be to be clear, a map And that was Dragan's statement.
00:20:17
Zak
I'm sorry, but, you know...
00:20:19
DailySaintsPod
That was Dragan's statement, right? And he, like you say, is the businessman who is it's still going to be bitter and angry about it because of the detriment and cost and the... like He doesn't want to be sat...
00:20:32
DailySaintsPod
in front of a camera recording this statement he'd rather be doing anything literally anything else right and so so i i get it and and tonda didn't do that in his statement he just explained like i want to provide the context not as an excuse but as an explanation hold my hands up i've made mistakes i take responsibility i've apologized for it i'd love to be able to move forward and look forward and
00:20:35
Zak
Right. i
00:20:57
DailySaintsPod
go again and do it. are not I am a coach, but the important part is the players, and I hope that we can do that and go again. No amount of information is as important to the run as the individual performances as the players were throughout, which which is absolutely true, right? so yeah, for sure. And I think for me...
00:21:20
DailySaintsPod
you know I always try and take all of these things or or anything. you know that When we have like hard results, I try and take the step back and and take my emotion out of it. And it's hard in this case, particularly because it is so emotive and so emotional.
00:21:40
DailySaintsPod
And because of the the frenzy that it's whipped up. right But I what tried to do is I thought about it. I'm like, what if... what if we'd got caught spying on Middlesbrough in the league game?
00:21:53
DailySaintsPod
And based off of what we, you know, how we've interpreted and read the proceedings and the rulings and everything, we'd have got caught spying on Middlesbrough in a league game and the playoffs weren't involved at all. If you, you know, it's four months earlier.
00:22:08
DailySaintsPod
And what it means is that we this investigation complaint is made, and it comes out, and the punishment for the three incidents, because they were all within the league, are a total of a six-point deduction and a slap on the wrist as a reprimand for bad culture or whatever, which is what the reprimand was for, right? Because if they used the junior staff to do it.
00:22:31
DailySaintsPod
And i I was just trying to think, if that was the punishment, if it was just a six-point deduction and the slap on the wrist and move on, because that was the timing of the season in which it it happened, because that's the only difference, would there been even have been as much of a call for Tontor to get sacked?
00:22:52
Zak
Yes.
00:22:52
DailySaintsPod
And, see, I don't think there would be.
00:22:56
Zak
that That game, we lost fort ni to Middlesbrough, and most people wanted his head after that game anyway. So, if youre the the problem is is, the basis of your argument is, well, what happened if it happened early in the season?
00:23:01
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:23:07
Zak
and And that's great, but like whenever you do any sort of sort of post-historical... sort of, oh, you know, what's what's the word? Like alternative history, right? Whenever you try and look at any scenario like that, you need to you need to weigh up all those things.
00:23:20
Zak
Okay, well, we would we'd lost fought that game 4-0.
00:23:21
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:23:24
Zak
So if we did subside him and he got caught, I don't think people would be bothered.
00:23:24
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. Okay. That's valid. Look.
00:23:28
Zak
It was because of the unbeaten run. It was because of where we got to.
00:23:31
DailySaintsPod
yeah
00:23:31
Zak
And yeah, I also think that probably the reason the punishment was worse and the reason it was so much worse was because of when it occurred, why it occurred and how it occurred.
00:23:39
DailySaintsPod
100%. That's exactly why. And that's why the punishment's so harsh. If it happens three weeks earlier and it's not Middlesbrough, it's... I don't know, i can't even remember who he played in the run-out for the rest of the season.
00:23:51
DailySaintsPod
Wrexham or something, right?
00:23:51
Zak
Thank you.
00:23:52
DailySaintsPod
It's... it's different and it removes so much of the emotional whiplash that has stirred up and brought up by it. And I think that think it's almost impossible to like remove the emotion enough or replace the emotion enough to think properly about that alternative history. But I just think that if that is the case and it just happens in the regular season and, and, and you know, we're already on this 17, 18 game run unbeaten, but it happens and we get a six point deduction.
00:24:23
DailySaintsPod
I just don't think that the the outcry would necessarily be there to to immediately remove Tonda.
Player Loyalty and Club Confidence
00:24:32
DailySaintsPod
So i that's kind of why I sit on the fence. Because because I genuinely... i don't don I don't know if it's the right decision, but I understand where the decision is born from, and I i am in agreement that...
00:24:50
DailySaintsPod
as a coach and a manager, Tonda is probably the best option for us to get promotion next season. And so for that reason, I think I'm, I'm kind of okay with it, but, but it comes with, you know, it's going to be under a magnifying glass and under scrutiny, right?
00:25:08
DailySaintsPod
Any manager that comes in is under pressure because that's the role of a football manager.
00:25:12
Zak
And there's going to be some players that because of this want to leave.
00:25:12
DailySaintsPod
Uh, but then there's Tonda.
00:25:16
Zak
And that's, that's the reality of the situation, right? like Like, from what I can say, there's, from what can tell, there's supposedly, it's hard to buy into the rumours, but you know, supposedly some sort of like financial restitutions passed across, right? I don't know how, whether or not that's true or not. That's why never going bother like naming a source because I don't know if it's, it's accurate, but you know, there are going to be players that will not be able to reconcile with that.
00:25:39
Zak
And
00:25:39
DailySaintsPod
It seems like the obvious option to me, but in the same in the same sort of thought experiment as that, I can say that 90% of our players, if offered to go and play in the same league for 20 grand a week more, would probably want to leave anyway for that deal. So it's...
00:26:01
DailySaintsPod
it's It's knowing that how player loyalty actually works in this league anyway and bringing that into account. You know, of those players that are going to want to leave anyway because of it, how many of them would have wanted to leave regardless because we didn't get promotion, regardless of whether that was because of cheating or not?
00:26:22
Zak
Yeah, no I guess that's that's that's a fair point. One of the other things I did want to point out is you talking about how, well, they must be pretty convinced that you know he's not going to get in trouble if they're willing to come out back him.
00:26:22
DailySaintsPod
So...
00:26:25
DailySaintsPod
so
00:26:33
Zak
They were also pretty convinced that we'd win on appeal and that our appeal would work.
00:26:37
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, yeah, no, that's fair.
00:26:38
Zak
So when it comes to when it comes to them having an understanding, I don't really believe it at all. Because part of what Drake had also said was...
00:26:43
DailySaintsPod
I yeah i think they've gone but think they've got better lawyers since then, though, mate, is my understanding of it.
00:26:47
Zak
Maybe, but part of what Dragan has also said is that like, you know, we've made mistakes and we'll learn from them and we're all still learning together. We're all still learning. I'm like, okay, but like, surely, surely one of the rules you you learn day one is to not break them.
00:26:56
DailySaintsPod
Hmm.
00:27:02
Zak
That's just, for me, that's just a quite an obvious thing. And I know that the the punishment is draconian and you know, it will be, for me, there's a lot of work that needs to be done to build back up trust with not only the fans, with the players.
00:27:14
DailySaintsPod
Definitely. Yeah.
00:27:15
Zak
It's the right direction. I will give it that.
00:27:18
DailySaintsPod
And here's the thing, right?
00:27:19
Zak
That's the story on that.
00:27:19
DailySaintsPod
that's what the That's what the next steps will be, right? So, Mystic Greg coming back into the mix. Don't be surprised if in the next days, weeks, however long, right?
00:27:30
DailySaintsPod
We'll probably see... in fact, I've already seen rumours of attempts. We'll probably see... A signing of Kyle Lahren, hopefully a signing of Daniel Peretz. know that they're actively trying to get those deals done.
00:27:44
DailySaintsPod
Maybe a contract renewal of James Bree, right? These good pieces of news are going to be slowly filtering out now to to try and start earning back that trust.
00:27:56
DailySaintsPod
Eventually we'll get season ticket information in in sort of another push for that. And yeah,
00:28:00
Zak
but try to But the other thing is, how do you do they even care? Because it sounds like they don't, about trying to rebuild the reputation our reputation within the game. Because that's one of the other things that is a big is a big deal, is that you can ignore what you want, you can have the siege mentality, but the the problem that you have with a lot of people from the outside looking in is, as you pointed out, they only get a part of the narrative.
Media's Role and Cheating Perceptions
00:28:24
Zak
But also, those three beats of the narrative that you pointed out still parts of that narrative. So you can have the caveats in that point.
00:28:30
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, 100%. don't
00:28:31
Zak
And i just I just think that, you know...
00:28:33
DailySaintsPod
don't think that you... I think that any statement that would come out and say, oh we're looking to rebuild our... our reputation as a club just rings hollow unless there's actual actions.
00:28:46
DailySaintsPod
but I don't think it's the thing that sort of thing that should or needs to be said.
00:28:49
Zak
it's it's a devil's advocate thing to be clear because
00:28:50
DailySaintsPod
that that will That will happen as part of the actions, right? if If they follow through on the actions they need to follow through on, then that will come with it. It's...
00:29:00
Zak
it's it's like the whole thing where like with our our fan base, whenever, whenever Pompey say anything, they bang on about, you know, oh at least we weren't robbing the club. And it's like, yeah, but it was like the ownership from their club, like, you know, not to, not to give them anything, but when you've changed hands multiple times and there's multiple different people it was 18 years ago and it's still getting brought up, it's,
00:29:18
Zak
I don't know if there's anything that we would have been able to do to rebuild the reputation, but I think that some sort of reprimand for the people involved might have gone a long way. And whilst I am a big believer in life of second chances,
00:29:31
DailySaintsPod
There was a reprimand. they They lost the ability to to try and be a Premier League manager. Upsettingly, the person I've seen with the the take I most agree with so far is Simon Jordan on TalkSport, which is upsetting because that is not something I say very often. Yeah.
00:29:51
DailySaintsPod
But he he said, like look, there may or may not have been more wrongdoing here, and we'll never know. But you've already had the reprimand. You've already taken the punishment.
00:30:06
DailySaintsPod
If you genuinely believe that Tonda's the the man to do it and your best chance for promotion, why would you sack him and hurt your own chances? for for the benefit of the reputation amongst the rest of the football world.
00:30:19
Zak
others.
00:30:23
Zak
Yeah, that's and that's that's the catch-through too.
00:30:24
DailySaintsPod
Why why would you hinder yourself?
00:30:26
Zak
And it it is where where lots of people are are saying, wow well, if it was our club and our manager, we'd be up in arms.
00:30:27
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:30:32
Zak
And I'm like, well, would you?
00:30:34
DailySaintsPod
I just don't know if they would.
00:30:34
Zak
Because no one no one else has really been in this situation.
00:30:35
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:37
Zak
And you're not seeing...
00:30:38
DailySaintsPod
Leeds, who backed Bielsa and then went on to win promotion with Bielsa. Like, it is what it is.
00:30:45
Zak
City fans are still City fans regardless, right? you can You can look at some of the dubious decisions that Arsenal have been given by referees this season as to why they won the league.
00:30:48
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:54
Zak
And like again, I know that that's nuance and and that is... I don't want it to sound necessarily as excuses, but theyre they're all things that are happening.
00:31:00
DailySaintsPod
And again, actually,
00:31:02
Zak
And I feel like...
00:31:03
DailySaintsPod
Simon Jordan said it as well. He was like, everyone cheats, right? Do you sack a player because he dies, right? Would you call in absolute uproar and in arms and like throw everything down and refuse to follow your club unless the goalkeeper who sat down in his own penalty box in the 68th minute for the 10th game in a row, right? it's It's exactly the same. It's still cheating by the same respect.
00:31:32
Zak
I don't agree that it's exactly the same. And I think that there's, you know, there's there's a level of calculation and there's always that kind of stuff.
00:31:36
DailySaintsPod
of You're telling me it's not calculated?
00:31:38
Zak
And I understand where you're coming from. Like, I get it.
00:31:42
DailySaintsPod
you're not telling me that there's not in the team meetings going, well, if the pressure's on, just pretend to have cramp.
00:31:49
Zak
Yeah. Okay.
00:31:50
DailySaintsPod
It's the same level of calculation.
00:31:50
Zak
no like that I get that. But then it was because of the the way the reprimand is is dealt with and the fact that is a booking. And this is the problem is that there was not a precedent to...
00:31:58
DailySaintsPod
It's not though, is it? It's never a booking. That's the upsetting part.
00:32:02
Zak
They're banning it from the World Cup, mate. don't know what else. That should mean that they have taken note of goalkeepers sitting down with cramp, right?
00:32:08
DailySaintsPod
Look, we're we having in a throwback about 200 episodes ago here, mate, where I said we need to ban goalkeepers completely and I stand by it.
00:32:17
Zak
No, I get it. But the problem is is that like I can understand the the outside noise, and I don't think there's anything that we could have done. But feel like potentially not shutting up shop and giving the bloke a promotion who did the spy-in, is it's just not a great look. But I think that, as you pointed out, I don't think that matters. And as I pointed out, it's because that statement wasn't for them.
00:32:42
Zak
And I don't think they, you know...
00:32:42
DailySaintsPod
But it's also a bad look if you sack for the whistleblower, right? Like, you gotta...
00:32:47
Zak
True. yeah
00:32:49
DailySaintsPod
You can't... you got You gotta go both of these ways, right?
00:32:53
Zak
But other things is like, I do feel i would very much like to know...
00:32:53
DailySaintsPod
Like, it's...
00:32:57
Zak
the thing that's kind of really bothered me is that when Spores came in day one and he was responsible for hiring Tonda and he was responsible for, you know, Will Still. And he's, you know, he's been responsible for a lot of our success and lot of the good signings and also some of the poor signings, right?
00:33:13
Zak
But one of the things that he said when he came in was that he... The buck stops with him, right?
00:33:17
DailySaintsPod
The Buck Stopped Me. Yeah.
00:33:20
Zak
And I have not heard his name uttered bar Dragan talking about how good he's been recently. And that's kind of it. And it's like you are, but you know, if if you genuinely believe that, you know, if if it if it is a 30-something-year-old manager, young
Morals, Responsibility, and Legacy
00:33:34
Zak
manager has made a mistake and, you know, putting him directly in the firing line and making him stand up and say it in front of everybody...
00:33:42
Zak
and not taking any level of responsibility or putting anything else yourself. You know, that's what I think is like, it's great that the owners come up, stepped up and had it had the conversation. It's great that Tom just said something. It just sounds like it's like, okay, we're sorry anyway, and then let's carry on with it. And I understand it needs to end somewhere as well. I just wonder if it's been enough.
00:34:02
Zak
that's That's all I'm saying. and I don't know... I don't know what not enough looks like because I'm also in agreement that you we shouldn't just be randomly firing like the entirety of the analytical team.
00:34:13
DailySaintsPod
100%. Yeah.
00:34:13
Zak
But also like if there were people that were culpable, if there were people that known, if there are people that, you know, have sanctioned it. And yeah I think that they need to stay skeak squeaky clean.
00:34:24
Zak
I think it, I don't know if it's just the two people that should come out and apologize.
00:34:26
DailySaintsPod
son
00:34:29
Zak
And I think that the problem with a lot of it is that it, it, it rubs people's personal like personal moral compass the wrong way. And as I've constantly said, it just feels a bit gross and grimy, right?
00:34:42
Zak
that's the biggest That's the biggest thing. And you feel like you are tarnished with that.
00:34:44
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, I think that you most... I think...
00:34:46
Zak
You can't get rid of that by by unless you just denounce the club and no one wants to do that.
00:34:47
DailySaintsPod
I think that... I think that you... I think you mostly feel like that because of the frenzy that the media's whipped up. Let's not forget that whether you agree with it being more serious of diving or not, right? it were All of those jokes aside, if he'd have been in that same spot 12 hours earlier, he's not breaking any rules.
00:35:09
DailySaintsPod
If he'd have got on the right flight, it's not even an issue, you know? So it's you've got to take these these like mitigating factors into it And in in that case, right, going to watch opponents train not in that time frame is fine.
00:35:25
DailySaintsPod
And Tonda offhandedly said in a meeting on Monday it would be good to get this information. And then, you know, his analyst team has run off and dealt with it in whatever inappropriate manner. And Tonda's taken the responsibility for for that, right? He said that that's that's on him because I'm the manager. It's just...
00:35:46
DailySaintsPod
The context of that is important. Whether you believe it to be an actual mistake or not, and again, i don't don't think it was, right?
00:35:48
Zak
Thank you.
00:35:53
DailySaintsPod
It's ignorance and arrogance was were the phrases used that I think summed it up beautifully. Ignorance and arrogance, right?
00:36:03
DailySaintsPod
Not mistake, just a symptom of that. But the context is that despite the incredibly harsh punishment because of the the time and the place of where and when it happened, 12 hours either side, it's not even a breach of a rule.
00:36:20
DailySaintsPod
And... Is that actually more or less impactful than diving for a penalty or a time-wasting goalie?
00:36:22
Zak
Thank you.
00:36:27
DailySaintsPod
That's a debate the that will echo till the dawns of time. Is it more or less cheating than buying a hotel from yourself so that you can spend £50 million pounds on an extra player?
00:36:41
DailySaintsPod
Right?
00:36:42
Zak
Yeah, no, I know.
00:36:43
DailySaintsPod
I don't know.
00:36:43
Zak
it's
00:36:43
DailySaintsPod
don't know.
00:36:44
Zak
it's It's difficult because it's the, from from my personal perspective, it's like the, I don't like the idea of no you.
00:36:45
DailySaintsPod
said
00:36:50
Zak
Like, I'd love to be able to just mug off Man City and the 120 billion charges they have that still haven't been resolved. And, you know, I've even done it to a letter a little bit of an extent, you know, talking about it earlier, but it's for me, it's like, it's personal responsibility.
00:36:56
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:37:03
Zak
And ultimately, we've never been involved in anything quite this controversial. And it just feels a bit gross. And I understand and respect the fact that people will have a siege mentality where they're going to shut down. But I'm also aware of the image of the wider football world now has of our team.
00:37:21
Zak
And I hate that. And that, yes, that might be down to media.
00:37:23
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, but I've seen the opinions of the wider football word in world in general, mate, and I just don't think I care. Like, you know, like, goes back to the the phrase we opened the show with, all opinions are valid, some are less informed.
00:37:40
Zak
Yeah.
00:37:41
Zak
No, you're right. It's...
00:37:41
DailySaintsPod
So, like like, the reputation's going to be what it'll be.
00:37:45
Zak
this for
00:37:46
DailySaintsPod
And you're right, if they move forward and from this point forward a proper squeaky clean, In ten years five, ten years' time, by the end of the World Cup, who's going to care?
00:37:57
DailySaintsPod
Just Middlesbrough fans, and they're just going to be salty because they bottled promotion three times. like there That's it. You know?
00:38:06
Zak
Yeah, no, i think I think you're right. And it would be it would be wrong for me to say that the the levels of, like I guess, heated debate and also to some extent abuse, I'm not going to pretend that it has not been that as well, have definitely, I think, also clouded some of my opinions.
00:38:22
Zak
But I try to come into any of these things like we both do, which is to be quite objective about it. And I just don't know why. And maybe it is because of the media outcry. just feel a little bit gross around it.
00:38:33
Zak
And I don't think there's anything they could have perfectly said, but something is better than nothing. And, you know, would I equally feel, would I feel, the other question I ask myself is like, would I feel really happy if it's like, right, we've sacked Tonda and we've sacked the entirety of the analyst team?
00:38:47
DailySaintsPod
right
00:38:47
Zak
Probably not because it does then. It's like, okay, so a bunch people have lost their jobs. Is that like any better? Is that, you know, great. We're kind of rebuilding.
00:38:55
DailySaintsPod
Of course it's not. That's it. and And look, and that's why I sit on the fence, right?
00:38:57
Zak
So i I don't know. It's...
00:39:01
DailySaintsPod
Do I know whether it's the right decision or not? No. Do I just go with it and back it because now now the onus is on them to prove that it's the right decision? Yeah, that's that's that's what we've got to roll with.
00:39:11
Zak
do i Do I think that they should have waited until the FA's investigation? Yes. Do I think they didn't?
00:39:16
DailySaintsPod
No. Silence.
00:39:18
Zak
Because...
00:39:18
DailySaintsPod
No, the silence was deafening. it's it's It had to be now after the back of the that statement last night because otherwise it's it's too too far gone.
00:39:29
DailySaintsPod
And and I...
00:39:29
Zak
But Greg, the cynic in me feels like it's just because they're like, well, we can't put out something about season tickets until we've at least had like... hot Which is also probably accurate...
00:39:36
DailySaintsPod
And that, look, that might well... That might well be the case. And I fully agree, right? All of those things will have weighed into the decision, but no.
00:39:48
DailySaintsPod
it's good Who knows what how long the FA Investigation is going to take? Who knows what it's going to come out with? But yeah I don't think it's going to be ban.
00:39:59
DailySaintsPod
It's not it's not as as bad as that, right? It's... in In a black and white world, we broke the rule, got the punishment.
Future Direction and Listener Engagement
00:40:10
DailySaintsPod
Fine. Moving on from that. we We have debated that on the show at length and have come to terms with acceptance that there there was really no choice based off of all of the factors that go into it and it being a separate knockout competition and all of that. Fine.
00:40:26
DailySaintsPod
Fine. but But, you know, the grey areas about how severe of a cheat it was, that that's a discussion that that will rage on till the the dawn of time.
00:40:37
DailySaintsPod
is You can't, you know, that's down to to you personally to work out where that fits in in with your your moral compass, like you said earlier, but... yeah It is going to be what it's going to be, but at least we have that forward direction now from the club. We know where we stand as a club. We know partially what the future is going to look like.
00:41:00
DailySaintsPod
Obviously, there's still other fallout like player sales to happen, but that was always going to happen in this transfer window one way or another. so you know We roll with the punches and look forward to it. But it's what it is. I will say, Zach, you mentioned some of the vitriol and hatred and... yeah noise and negativity around the whole situation, especially on social media, I want to give a shout out to a majority of our listeners and people who engage with us directly on social media because in the large part, it's been really nice, really well-balanced views presented in a way where I'm really grateful.
00:41:40
Zak
so To be clear, listeners and subscribers are not the problem. It is random people that have stumbled across a clip or hear that or the other that but see something and see the word Southampton and just decide to throw it in front of it.
00:41:45
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. Yeah. I'm... 100%. Yeah.
00:41:54
Zak
And I know that it hit Jimmy Cheese and others.
00:41:55
DailySaintsPod
100%. But I'm so, so grateful to all of the people who do engage in such a positive way. And I'm glad that we have managed to cultivate a listenership that are able to have that discussion, have that discourse with that balanced mentality. And even in situations, one comment I saw earlier on YouTube, I think on yesterday's episode, where we kind of disagreed with our take, but presented that in a nice way that was a really interesting read and great to get the take on. So shout out to everyone, who positively engaging.
00:42:30
DailySaintsPod
right we're We're open to criticism.
00:42:31
Zak
Yeah. and it would work with yeah it's it's it's it's what it It's when it's just like...
00:42:32
DailySaintsPod
It's the abuse that he cuts out.
00:42:36
Zak
it's when It's when you're just outwardly calling the entire club and fans and people that talk about cheaters or idiots or uninformed or just like personal attacks.
00:42:42
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:42:46
Zak
You've also got like, sorry, the ludicrous thing that I know I'm so still salty about of... of we should have just known, we should have known Greg because we're so switched on, we should just know we're cheating because there's no way you can turn around that good.
00:42:54
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:42:58
DailySaintsPod
But...
00:43:00
Zak
But the things that I want to point out is like, we we very much came close to having a big, large gap. Like I wanted to basically take a month off. I was i was just so tapped out. And it was the fact that ironically, you know, the guy that said, don't let Tom do my podcast as well.
00:43:14
Zak
And it's why that was just that. And then then we log back into Spotify comments because we totally forgot they existed for a little bit again and just saw like a lot of stuff that really just you know keeps us keeps us going, man. like the The flip side of it is, yeah, finding out we're part people's daily routines and and the conversations that me and you have now for the four hundred and fiftieth time in front of of camera for...
00:43:40
Zak
when we started doing episodes that were 21 minutes and they're now quickly descending into over 50 shows you, we we have a love for this. And, you know, we, we really appreciate the support we get.
00:43:48
DailySaintsPod
Hmm.
00:43:51
Zak
And, you know, it's just been an absolutely wild ride. And like, I still remember when we were like, we found out whilst recording about Russell Martin getting fired. And we thought like, man, that's the craziest thing that's ever going to happen while we're on air.
00:44:06
Zak
And like, Since then, I've done so many manager profiles because we've looked through like, I don't know a hundred managers, it feels like in the last couple of years. And then to have all of this and then be like, man, we can't, we have to engage with it because we feel like we've got like a a duty to do it almost. Yeah, it's been a lot. But at the same time, you know, we wouldn't be doing here if we didn't, we wouldn't sat here talking about it if we didn't care about it, I guess.
00:44:30
DailySaintsPod
No, that's it.
00:44:30
Zak
Yeah. So shout out to everyone. It is actually reasonable.
00:44:31
DailySaintsPod
100%.
00:44:32
Zak
It's not all hatred and vitriol, to be clear.
00:44:33
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. And I'm very grateful for it. But look, That's all we've got time for today, today mate. let's Let's tie this little Spygate ordeal in a little bow.
00:44:44
DailySaintsPod
Let's come back tomorrow and barring any more extreme statements from the club, gonna we're going to do our our end of season awards, get the season tidied away and start also looking forward to July and football coming back because it's what we love and why we do it.
00:45:04
DailySaintsPod
And look, regardless of how you feel and thoughts on the club statement and where you fall on whether it's acceptable or not, I think that we can all agree that come July... probably still going to be sat in St Mary's and we'll probably join in with the songs of We Are Southampton, We Spy Where We Won.
00:45:25
DailySaintsPod
Because cause that's just football, isn't it? You've got to take the humour out of it. But look, let us know your thoughts, your opinions, everything on on the socials, on the comments.
00:45:38
DailySaintsPod
We're Daily Saints Pod everywhere. X, Blue Sky, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. Hit us up. Let us know how you're feeling. And while you're there, why not drop us a subscribe or a like? It goes so far to helping us out. Like i say, like we've said, we really appreciate It really, really motivates us. Thank you, everyone, for listening with us for another extended episode.
00:46:04
DailySaintsPod
Thank you, as always, Zach, for joining me.
00:46:06
Zak
Thank you too, mate.
00:46:07
DailySaintsPod
But until tomorrow, everyone, have a wonderful day, and we will see then.