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Episode 449: REACTION! Legal documents drop & Club Statement
114 Plays12 days ago
Southampton - Well, the club put out a statement, that didn't say a lot, and left us mostly to read between the lines... So we take a deep dive into all 39 pages of the legal documents released from the appeal, and all the other details that have come out from it!
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Transcript
Introduction and Unplanned Episodes
00:00:13
DailySaintsPod
Hello and welcome back to the Daily Saints pod episode number 449 and forty nine and my name is Greg as always today joined by my good friend and wonderful co-host Zach and mate nothing quite like spanner in the works who said anything about planning episodes in advance right?
00:00:32
Zak
<unk>s It's kind of infuriating because it's like post-season content and we kind of had everything planned for what we were going to do. And that meant that I did a bit more late-night working than I usually would. And all of a sudden I get a text from you saying, ah, comes out
Southampton's Legal Challenges Begin
00:00:46
Zak
the statement. So I read the statement. I'm like, okay, not too bad.
00:00:49
Zak
was like, right, I'll try and digest that before we before we start. And then you're like, oh, I'm just going to read the whole thing. that There's the whole the whole document that it's referring to. I was like, oh, right.
00:00:59
Zak
And I've been that out of the loop that, like, about five minutes before this episode started, all of a sudden I opened up BBC Sport and just saw, like, you know, was is it? You legend, manager loves it.
00:01:11
Zak
And then I got, like, an off-the-cuff tweet from one of my mates that just said, you legend, mate. And I was like, question mark, like, you're right, mate? And he's like, that's what the analyst said. And I'm like, oh, God, what have missed? And so I feel horrifically of the loop to the point where I don't – Greg, you've done lots of stuff and I appreciate you.
00:01:32
DailySaintsPod
All right. let's Let's start with a caveat, right? Get this out of the way. i am not a lawyer. or a legal expert, I did not realise that being someone who spoke about saints on a podcast would require at some point a law degree, but here we are.
Club Responsibility and Legal Representation
00:01:53
DailySaintsPod
I do find all of it deeply fascinating and so therefore have sat and read the full 39 page document released by the arbitration panel as well as the club statement.
00:02:07
DailySaintsPod
I have also done some further research assisted by AI but highly scrutinized, right? I i asked the AI, hey, what might some approaches of a legal next step be for Southampton?
00:02:24
DailySaintsPod
And it laid out a whole set of examples. And i went, great. Let's go and read about those laws because I'm that particular brand of insane. So... Yeah.
00:02:33
Zak
That's not. We just ah we have to use um we have to use elements of it for our job and we have to be highly critical of it because, again, you can't just say, well, this is what it told me to do.
00:02:40
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:02:44
Zak
If you don't understand something and you put it into a production environment, ah you can just get fired. That's just how's just how the world is now.
00:02:50
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, absolutely. And so,
00:02:52
Zak
might be for a tech podcast, mind you. Okay.
00:02:55
DailySaintsPod
so so I was happy to take his guidance on what laws to read up on. All right. And so now you can add to like the 80% of the EFL rules and regulations that I've read, uh, all of actual laws, uh, a whole group of them, which I will directly quote, uh,
00:03:11
Zak
At this point, do we just need a lawyer on tap? like
Document Analysis and Legal Precedents
00:03:15
Zak
but I could probably just about fill in for Club Historian, but at this point, we genuinely need legal representation.
00:03:15
DailySaintsPod
ah
00:03:20
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:03:23
Zak
Please
00:03:23
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, sure. And if any local businesses want to reach out and offer us sponsorship so that we could afford FedLawyer, please do.
00:03:29
Zak
do.
00:03:36
Zak
east stay
00:03:37
DailySaintsPod
But that said, right like say, not by any means an expert, but i have done... lots of reading, lots of research to get to this. So let's start with the high level points that I have taken from both the document released by the arbitration panel, uh, the single judge.
00:03:50
Zak
Thank you.
00:03:56
DailySaintsPod
This is basically the full written findings of the appeal, much like the written findings that we had previously from the, the actual panel. Um, and And, of course, the statement from the club. So my first gut instinct of reading the statement from the club was that it was ah minimalist, let's say.
00:04:18
DailySaintsPod
it was it was It was tick box.
00:04:19
Zak
Yeah, it wasn't long, was it?
00:04:24
DailySaintsPod
It very specifically acknowledged acknowledged its responsibility in certain areas.
00:04:36
DailySaintsPod
and And what i've read from it was the club are not done with this, right? They don't come out and actively say it in this, but but reading between the lines and reading around the edges, they don't admit more guilt than they already have done in this statement.
00:04:55
DailySaintsPod
They acknowledge their responsibility is now to take ownership of lessons it brings, use the experience strengthen judgment, discipline and integrity. moving forward together as a club, right?
00:05:08
DailySaintsPod
And ah it stops short of saying, we might pursue this further, off we're investigating, the lawyers are investigating, but but it doesn't do the other stuff that you would want the club statement to do outside of that as the as the realistic outcome, right?
00:05:27
DailySaintsPod
It doesn't say, we're so sorry for the impact this had on fans because that explicitly guilt, right?
00:05:27
Zak
Nope.
00:05:38
Zak
Yeah, I also saw... like The one thing I did say to see today... I didn't realise all this was going to come out this afternoon or this evening. But like one of the things I did see was that we were potentially being represented by the same people that are representing Man City in their legal case, which means they're spending money on it, which doesn't really surprise me that you're right.
00:05:52
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, very much so. yeah Yeah, so that that that came out that came out like the evening of the appeal, right?
00:05:57
Zak
You don't spend that much money.
00:06:01
DailySaintsPod
That we were being represented by this particular bigwig lawyer ah who is the Man City lawyer.
00:06:03
Zak
because i think it was... Yeah, but that was a specific lawyer.
00:06:07
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:06:07
Zak
i think it's i think I saw it it was like we're being represented specifically by a firm going forward um that are associated with it as well.
00:06:14
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, I believe that is the case.
00:06:16
Zak
Still on what's ongoing, basically.
00:06:19
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. And that's what i mean, right? All of these things imply the club is not done with it. um And so I will get to what that is, what that might look like, and what that means, and why that's a challenge
Appeal Panel Rulings and Implications
00:06:34
DailySaintsPod
later. right We'll come back to it. We'll circle back. Put pin in it.
00:06:38
DailySaintsPod
Let's go through the actual appeals reading and the the keynotes I took from it. I've gone as as high level as I can. I've only got 20-ish notes from the 39-page document, which is its pretty good, pretty concise. Okay, so... um Effectively, as we know, the appeals panel concluded that the process followed by the independent commission was reasonable and specifically relating to these sort of key points. So one of the key parts of the appeal was that Southampton asked for the other charges that were found as part of the
00:07:20
DailySaintsPod
investigation and actually were raised to self-reported to the league by Southampton, which, you know, based off of the selectiveness of the fixtures outside of the legalese, ah perhaps slightly more incriminating. But, but there you know, it was self-reported, but admittedly after the EFL had said, we might have more evidence from other clubs. Right.
00:07:46
DailySaintsPod
so So that was self-reported and Southampton asked for more time to properly investigate and build a defence for those cases rather than combining them with the charges for the Middlesbrough incident.
00:07:58
DailySaintsPod
um And that was declined and they decided to do it all together and therefore put the time frame on that. um And that that, according to the arbitration panel, was acceptable because of the totality of the events. They were relevant enough that they could do that.
00:08:15
DailySaintsPod
um it was deemed due process the expulsion from the knockout tournament based on precedent of Swindon in the EFL versus Swindon case from earlier in the season where they fielded in eligible players and got kicked out of the EFL trophy and also the precedent set by the Canadian international team versus the Olympics where they were given a six point deduction in a four team group so it was you know basically this wasn't over and beyond this sticks to precedent set by other cases.
00:08:52
DailySaintsPod
Um, it says that the leads case and the other cases that were put forward, um, as an argument for it being unfair and unreasonable, um,
00:09:03
DailySaintsPod
just aren't really relevant. So obviously there's the Leeds case, but that is before the rule existed. The rule was agreed by EFL after that. And so there's different relevance to it.
00:09:17
DailySaintsPod
um There was also two cases that the appeal brought up which was Everton versus the Premier League and Chelsea versus the Premier League the case of Chelsea of course resulting in just fine and Everton resulting in points deduction but a minimum points deduction for certain regulations due to scale um and and it was deemed that basically they're not relevant because it wasn't knockout football and it applies to different rules and applies to different like knowing advantages, but also actually quite by coincidence or happenstance or because of the way it worked out outside of the knockout tournament and into the the actual points deduction, it actually matched that precedent in that it was three points per incident
00:10:13
DailySaintsPod
or per charge effectively before the mitigation. So it was initially a six point deduction that they mitigated down to four points because of cooperation.
Southampton's Rule Contradictions
00:10:24
DailySaintsPod
um The other thing that it concluded...
00:10:28
DailySaintsPod
um was was not appeal worthy and was part of the process was that there was the mitigation successfully taken into account. The argument from the appeal was that we complied with the investigation um like in an above and beyond fashion by going along with the timeframes and giving us more evidence than like the bare minimum, like we...
00:10:55
DailySaintsPod
um unprecedentedly cooperated in in like an above and beyond way um and it was deemed the compliance with investigations mandatory and so shouldn't mitigate that much even if it did you can't mitigate the being kicked out of the playoffs because no punishment less severe met the criteria of the four points of the punishment that was deemed to be needed to be met by the regulations that the EFL set out on how sanctions are decided.
00:11:16
Zak
Thank
00:11:26
DailySaintsPod
And especially with the other cases present for backup. the points were mitigated. You can't mitigate more than being kicked out because no punishment less severe was deemed appropriate.
00:11:41
Zak
I'm a bit perplexed here, Greg, because you're saying that we're like, hey, we we we followed all the rules and gave all the evidence. Is there are also evidence that like we concealed information?
00:11:52
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, that is tough.
00:11:53
Zak
So let me like, hey, we we followed all of the rules. We tried not to, but we did eventually follow the rules. Please be nice. it's just That's just a wild thing to me, mate.
00:12:02
DailySaintsPod
Basically, it was it was accepted by the Appeal Council that the statement on the 8th was made with incomplete information, and by way of apology, the other statement on the 12th, where we also self-reported, kind of went with that and was like, yeah, okay.
00:12:20
DailySaintsPod
It's fine. And you know, you did comply, good job, but also you, you got effectively the minimum punishment in this knockout tarts tournament style format.
00:12:31
DailySaintsPod
So I know that it feels painful because it's 200 million pounds, but also consider yourself lucky. It was just that and a reprimand is effectively the reading.
00:12:41
Zak
Yeah, I think there's a lot of people who feel great.
00:12:44
DailySaintsPod
who
00:12:46
Zak
Regardless, I know we've... It's a weird place to be as a Saints fan right now because there's very much growing Tom the Inn movement.
00:12:54
DailySaintsPod
m
00:12:54
Zak
And I don't know whether you count yourself among that. I think that, don't know if you are or not, I think that from my perspective, I still feel kind of, how do I move forward if they decide to keep him?
00:13:07
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:13:07
Zak
and And I can't imagine myself not supporting us next season. So it's like this weird kind of level of acceptance. And I don't really know where I land with it.
00:13:18
Zak
And I think you um maybe you're in the same boat, but it's it's not helping that with what the club are trying to...
00:13:26
DailySaintsPod
know.
00:13:26
Zak
If that's what the club are trying to do, like this has not helped it at all.
00:13:29
DailySaintsPod
Well, this very neatly lines up with my next point and my next note. You know, Tonda, and I agree with you. I don't know, is the answer. I i have not got enough evidence either way to to know how I feel about it, but you're right. I don't feel strongly enough about it. If we keep him on, I'm not going to support Saints. That's not it's just not how it works, but um I don't know how I feel about it yet.
00:14:01
DailySaintsPod
That said, the the next point was that um although it was obviously a particularly emotive line, and of course the line that all of the newspapers went with in the ah commission's writings, the pressure on teams that was given, as I think it was described as, deplorable, um it didn't actually light feed in any way into the judgment as much, right? Although it's the emotive part that you take from it, it was not like the decisive factor in the severity of the punishment.
00:14:36
DailySaintsPod
um And in fact, the...
00:14:37
Zak
Oh, yeah, because those those aren't the rules that are being broken, right? It's like encouraging to do bad is not the actual thing you're punishing for. It's the bad itself.
00:14:45
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. here
00:14:46
Zak
and it's not And I think that those things will be taken into circumstances when individuals are charged by the FA.
00:14:53
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:14:53
Zak
i don't think that it's going to come into account with these ah punishments, right?
00:14:59
DailySaintsPod
No, if' exactly.
00:14:59
Zak
So I'm really surprised surprised by that, to be honest.
00:15:02
DailySaintsPod
um and And that said, obviously now the the quotes you mentioned earlier and the one that all of the media go with are these WhatsApp messages that were mentioned in this document and and the analyst.
00:15:14
DailySaintsPod
And so the the ah the judge in the arbitration case refers to the person doing the spying as junior analyst And ah the other like more senior members of the analyst team as Analyst 1, Analyst 2, and Analyst 3, and then Tonda Rekker. So this this is ah how it reads. Basically, um it was mentioned in a team meeting that...
00:15:44
DailySaintsPod
Tonda wanted information on Oxford because Oxford had received a new manager. So this was the first instance. This is the Oxford incident. And it was suggested in meeting, are we able to go to the training ground and get some information?
00:15:57
DailySaintsPod
Okay. And then it was like, from from the way the appeals judge quotes it, somewhat flippant, right? It was a remark. It was a remark in a team meeting that Tonda made.
00:16:11
DailySaintsPod
And then analyst one and analyst two took it upon themselves to do this and organise it and determined that the junior analyst intern was the person they were going to send to do it. And he was able to go to Oxford and find out that they were going to play with a back four instead of a back five.
00:16:30
DailySaintsPod
And um the the one particular player, were that we were worried was either injured or not injured, wasn't going to be starting. and And this is the quote. um It says that he he relayed that information via text to Analyst 1 and then had a brief phone call with Manchel 1. This was all because Oxford's training ground is next to a road. You can just stand by the bush and look at it.
00:16:58
DailySaintsPod
So he just stood on the the public footpath and watched the training session. No recording in this instance, just him watching it um and feeding that back. And he he had a brief phone conversation where he so gave some analysis um to to analyst one, who then supposedly fed that back to Tonda and came back with that text. You legend, manager loved it.
00:17:21
DailySaintsPod
See if can get more. And the the other quotes were... um the The junior analyst intern felt pressured into doing it because previously in the season, another intern had been fired.
00:17:38
DailySaintsPod
No mention as to why or for what reason, right? Someone previously had been fired. So he was concerned that by not fulfilling the request, that he would also get fired and lose his job. Which,
Spying Incidents and Moral Dilemmas
00:17:49
DailySaintsPod
okay, yes, that is pressure. That is very different than the way it was framed previously. Um, and, and how that pressure was applied.
00:18:02
DailySaintsPod
So there was, there was pressure in that he was asked to do it. That is the pressure, right? But, but no more pressure than, and he didn't feel comfortable enough to to, to raise his concerns. There was then the Ipswich incident where he refused to, to do the, the Eastley thing and another junior in intern.
00:18:19
DailySaintsPod
analyst was was given an easily kit and a like a full um full docket of what his supposed role at Eastley was as his cover, which is insane. Just absolutely nuts. And he went. The other crazy part is that aside from that, Tonda was aware that someone from Eastley Football Club had just sent the club CCTV footage of the Ipswich training session.
00:18:51
DailySaintsPod
supposedly not related to to all of this, and actively told the analyst to turn it off because it was distracting him from the other, like, preparation that he was doing, which is nuts.
00:19:03
DailySaintsPod
Right? Hmm.
00:19:07
Zak
Okay, so to not upset the cultural sensitivities and the fact that I have pointed out many, many times that I have a history degree, right? And there's certain events that have taken place that I have studied in history.
00:19:23
Zak
um And let's just say you've got different approaches in historiography as to how events can take place, right? And For example, ah in in in one quite large event, for example, you've got intentionalism, which is a top-down approach, and then you've got functionalism, which is a bottom-up approach, right?
00:19:45
Zak
And what that means is that there are people that make that give orders from the top, And there are people who from the bottom want to impress the people on the top by doing things. Right. And then you've got what is actually the reality of the situation, which is a bit of both.
00:20:02
Zak
And unfortunately it seems that that's the case with what's going on with the spying is that I don't think that there is a position where somebody has specifically given the order that they need to spy on all the teams.
00:20:02
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:20:06
DailySaintsPod
see
00:20:13
Zak
They might've thrown out a suggestion there cause it's a useful thing to do. However, there will be people underneath who ah will look at, you know, this this idea that, oh, okay, manager wants some footage.
00:20:29
Zak
Let's like, let's just sort that out on um on our own. And um I don't think that you can palm responsibility off either way, but I also don't think you can palm responsibility specifically in the hierarchy.
00:20:32
DailySaintsPod
Hmm.
00:20:41
Zak
What it actually is, is like a combination of these things, right?
00:20:44
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, 100%. And I think that in general, mate, that that's, ah at least on this show, very much the position we tend to take, right?
00:20:45
Zak
And,
00:20:52
DailySaintsPod
If there's two simple answers, the reality is probably the combination of the two, right? that That's how we tend to approach it. And very, very delicately put, and I appreciate it, mate.
00:21:06
DailySaintsPod
It's good.
00:21:07
Zak
But this harder to do than I thought, and not something I'd have thought I'd be doing Saints podcast.
00:21:08
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:21:13
DailySaintsPod
No,
00:21:16
DailySaintsPod
No. No, mate, that history degree comes in helpful. But it gets, you even more relevant, I think, when it comes to the actual details of the middles, for instance, are touched on in this appeal. So it was claimed... Obviously, he said...
00:21:37
DailySaintsPod
i didn't I didn't really want to do it, but but it was put upon me that it needed to be done. And and I didn't think under the the considerations of the importance of the game contextually that I was in a position to push back and say, no, I felt that pressure, which is understandable. And again, ah not the same as... Not the same as directly like...
00:22:02
DailySaintsPod
got held to head, go and do it. Right. But also is under pressure and under duress. So understandable. um He said that Tonda was angry that he couldn't get up there on Tuesday to film Wednesday session. Now, if he had have been filming Wednesday session, as previously discussed on the show, he would have been outside of the 72 hour window.
00:22:23
DailySaintsPod
And so potentially wouldn't have been breaking the rules. Um, There's still a whole grey area there about... It's definitely morally wrong, but by definition, probably not directly against the rules, which is nuts. But the thing is, the flights in the hotel were booked by the director of operations of the club, right?
00:22:45
DailySaintsPod
so So this was a known...
00:22:46
Zak
Yeah, like that cost that's when you can't be like, oh, it was a lone actor, was a lone wolf in it, right?
00:22:49
DailySaintsPod
this is That's a smoking gun, right? That's a smoking gun. It was it was booked through the club, through the the director of operations, right? So it's it's a known activity. um The reason he was filming, he had not filmed any of the sessions previously. The reason he was filming is because the the information that they deemed from Ipswich was was wrong.
00:23:12
DailySaintsPod
It was bad, bad information. uh well i mean we lost that game the the the information that he gave was wrong um and in fact so that's why he was filming he was like if my word's not good enough you can have the camera proof and and effectively it comes out you can read through all of the pages of it tonda looked at the footage via the whatsapp video and it's not clear enough picture i can't tell anything from this ah But what the information that was just conclusively fed back to the management team was that Hayden Hackney was going to start and that they were going to...
00:23:39
Zak
I'm going to go back to the house.
00:23:52
DailySaintsPod
take a high-press approach with their football. Definitively made it back. Now, the argument from Tonda was, um I got that information on the Thursday. Thursday was a day off for the players.
00:24:03
DailySaintsPod
We had one training session. After that, it was Friday.
Cheating Accusations and Legal Defenses
00:24:05
DailySaintsPod
Friday was dedicated to set pieces. The entire formation and game plan was detailed on Wednesday.
00:24:11
Zak
Then why bother?
00:24:11
DailySaintsPod
Here's the CCTV of our training sessions to determine that.
00:24:12
Zak
Then why bother?
00:24:15
DailySaintsPod
And that's fine, right? 100%. a hundred percent
00:24:17
Zak
Why bother? This is my biggest problem with a lot of this, is it's like, oh, yeah. And and this is the thing where, like, clearly at any point, did somebody go, maybe send an analyst down...
00:24:29
Zak
you know, on um ah via, you know, a flight down to Middlesbrough to, like, film 15 minutes footage just isn't worth it.
00:24:33
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:24:36
Zak
And, like, even from, like, a cost-benefit analysis point of view, like, it's ridiculous. It's just, it just seems so it's making me, like, angry about it again.
00:24:43
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. there's also There's also detail of of what happened while he was up there and and how it like went down.
00:24:46
Zak
it's just such a waste.
00:24:53
DailySaintsPod
um so he he walked from the hotel that he was staying in to the training ground um where ah Analyst 2, Mysterious Analyst 2 from the club, had shown him drone footage of the Middlesbrough training ground to tell him where to stand So he'd walked down to the training ground to find the the appropriate spot um and and made these observations. Of course, one of which was wrong. Hayden Hackney didn't start, by the way. Played no part in either leg.
00:25:24
DailySaintsPod
But it's beside the point. Completely.
00:25:26
Zak
No, he made an appearance at the end of the final, but like it's just...
00:25:27
DailySaintsPod
But but noteworthy. Yeah. yeah Beside the point, especially when it gets to the actual like arbitration. But but but interesting. Yeah.
00:25:39
DailySaintsPod
And then was approached by four people who said, what are you doing? And he went, I'm just watching. And they went, you can't do that. He went, okay. And they were like, you need to delete those videos. And he went, okay, and deleted the videos. And then he walked back to the clubhouse, deleted his LinkedIn profile because he was concerned that's how they would like tie him back to the club.
00:26:06
DailySaintsPod
rung analyst one who was supposed to ring Tonda to confirm that he could then come home didn't hear anything from the club for three hours so decided to make his own way back to Southampton by the train and mid train ride home got the alert from the BBC news that he had been spying at Middlesbrough which is nuts just absolutely insane
00:26:30
Zak
it It would be...
00:26:33
DailySaintsPod
ah but But even with all of those details, right then the it's almost a tangent, genuinely, because the the decision from the commission, which was upheld by the arbitration, is that sporting advantage does not equal sporting success. So it's irrelevant that the information was wrong or that it played no part in the tactical setup and it wasn't used.
00:27:00
DailySaintsPod
it's irrelevant because we tried to gain the advantage and therefore it was gained and we admitted the guilt in all cases and therefore it's irrelevant.
00:27:11
DailySaintsPod
So the other arguments for, well, we should have had longer to prepare our defences for the other two cases rather than it all being lumped in. doesn't matter. You pleaded guilty. You were guilty. it is No defence stops you being guilty.
00:27:24
DailySaintsPod
All of the arguments that you've put forward that you didn't use it are irrelevant because it doesn't matter.
Future Actions and Reputation Concerns
00:27:31
DailySaintsPod
So, um, yeah, uh, it, it says, um, it it literally doesn't matter if the information didn't change our plans or not, because by definition, the action was in breach of the rules and therefore cheating to gain a sporting advantage.
00:27:48
DailySaintsPod
And that's it. That was like the conclusion, um, which is very hard to dispute. Uh, I think, ah which Which begs the question, right, as the outcome of that, from my opinion, is it's very hard to dispute of what comes next or what could Southampton pursue next.
00:28:08
DailySaintsPod
I said that this statement from the club implied that they were going to seek something further, or at least that's what I read into it.
00:28:14
Zak
So, to say with the club, have you seen have you seen what Alfie and Adam have had to say about it?
00:28:22
DailySaintsPod
i haven't. I just went straight to the primary sources.
00:28:23
Zak
Right, so so let me let me read you out. Let me read you out these quotes because sometimes secondary sources are good and I think it gives you a sentiment as to at least how the journalists covering the club feel.
00:28:35
Zak
And Adam's basically said, it's a disappointing statement in my humble opinion. It's passive aggressive when it would be so much easier to just say sorry to supporters in a much short statement, which is what you pointed out, right?
00:28:47
Zak
And you said it's probably because they're trying to gear us up for something.
00:28:48
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:28:50
Zak
Why mode about the panel now, which is a bit we haven't really talked about yet properly.
00:28:51
DailySaintsPod
100%.
00:28:54
Zak
They have the chance to
00:28:54
DailySaintsPod
i I get to that.
00:28:56
Zak
Yeah, I know you will. They had the chance before to do that and chose not to. This and the WhatsApp messages haven't helped the club move forward or helped the growing Keep Tonda movement on here and socials.
00:29:07
Zak
I just feel sad again and deflated, to be honest, because I desperately love someone from the club to own this story and lead from the front for the fans going forward. Give some hope. Alfie kind of has almost a similar thing, which is, have to say, I'm not impressed by this statement.
00:29:22
Zak
If you've got issues with the panel, they should have been raised at the time. I expect more to come in terms of communication. But yeah, would also like to know how the club sent a misleading first response. Sure, not deliberate.
00:29:34
Zak
Like, it's just so much of it is things it's making it seem...
00:29:36
DailySaintsPod
yeah a hundred percent. and
00:29:41
Zak
It's not like it's like a couple of rogue actors. It's making the whole institution feel even more dodgy. And i don't like it.
00:29:46
DailySaintsPod
100%. It's horrible. And i'm like I say, the for me, there's smoking gun.
00:29:49
Zak
It's gross.
00:29:53
DailySaintsPod
There's, there's it's you know, ignorance isn't a case of defence. the The actual defence that we went with was irrelevant because you have the smoking gun, you have the action.
00:30:05
DailySaintsPod
So all of the things that we appealed obviously obviously didn't work because of the appeal, ah the way the the appeal went, the way the arbitration went. And there was sort of detail in there about um the the Lord Panic, the the particularly the the like main Man City campaign.
00:30:25
DailySaintsPod
guy who i think charges £100,000 an was the report something, like arguing with the judge about one particular point of terminology ah that effectively whittled down to him you know panic conceding.
00:30:41
DailySaintsPod
So...
00:30:41
Zak
that's what you know, right?
00:30:42
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:30:42
Zak
Whenever whenever you're trying to argue everything off a technicality, even caught in dead to rights. Like, there are people who have got off of things for significantly worse off of a technicality, and then they will go on for the rest of their lives and say, is this proven in a court of law?
00:30:47
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:30:56
Zak
And you're like, well, no, it's thrown out, different thing.
00:30:57
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:30:59
Zak
And this is the problem where there's, like, a very big difference between what I think is, like, justice and um the reality of the situation.
00:31:06
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:31:07
Zak
And it's just, man, I just... the more we talk about it, the more it's just like, sorry, carry on.
00:31:13
DailySaintsPod
Mm. Well, look, mate.
00:31:15
Zak
and so carry on I
00:31:16
DailySaintsPod
Yes, I am on line 17 of my 70 lines of notes. So we're going to have to try and plow through this a bit quicker. What comes next and what could be next, right, are are the the main takes from me. Because if we've deemed and thought about it as, um as for me, smoking gun, case closed, job done.
00:31:38
DailySaintsPod
And and fact is genuinely, the the fact that it's gone through the league arbitration panel, the clause in the EFL terms and regulations, the line at the bottom of the appeal is, this appeal is final, there are no you cannot appeal this further, take this higher, no judgements can overturn this decision. It's been arbitrated.
00:32:00
DailySaintsPod
um And so it is as final as it can possibly be in in so many ways. um Yeah, the EFL rules very clear on that. You can't pursue to overturn the matter. And of course, how could we overturn the matter the final of was being played? It's a whole thing. um But what we could do, this is where where AI came in. I asked the AI what some of the things that we could do do would be and what that might look like and then i dug further into what the benchmarks for that are and how you do it so it could go to civil court under section 994 of the companies act 2006 because member clubs of the efl are also shareholders of the efl southampton could sue the league if the conduct is deemed unfairly prejudicial to the club's financial interests however
00:32:55
DailySaintsPod
That doesn't mean that the court would re-hear the evidence. um It could also go down a breach of contract route if ah if the Wednersbury unreasonable test for whether it was deemed unreasonable, biased or flawed, ah that no reasonable sports regulator could have come up with the punishment is met, but we'll get to that in a bit.
00:33:22
DailySaintsPod
Obviously for either of those things, it's gone through arbitration. It's gone to the point of effectively no further appeal. So the benchmark to hit any of either of those things, incredibly high. So there are two tests for section 994 on a legal basis. There's the prejudice test, which works towards the harm, which means that the club must prove that tangible harm has occurred.
00:33:54
DailySaintsPod
i.e. economic injury the EFL's decision must directly affect and damage the club's financial assets or commercial viability but not as a competitor as a shareholder of the EFL it's whole separate thing um
00:34:12
Zak
It's baffling because it's one of those things where we're really going spend all of this money to argue a technicality for the fact that we got cheated.
00:34:15
DailySaintsPod
yeah mm-hmm
00:34:20
Zak
We cheated actively. We've admitted it. It doesn't matter. We've said that it's the case. Sure, we've got annoyed about certain things. But it's like the idea that we're going spend all of this money fighting a legal case against the EFL.
00:34:32
Zak
When instead, what we could do is just not reinvest that money into the club and move forward.
00:34:34
DailySaintsPod
Just crack on.
00:34:36
Zak
Because this, this like like what both of you know two of the prominent journalists around the club are saying is, wow, this doesn't look like moving forward at all.
00:34:36
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. night
00:34:45
Zak
Do you not think that you need to sell out season tickets?
00:34:45
DailySaintsPod
No. 100%.
00:34:47
Zak
What about the fans? This feels like somebody's business has been messed with and they are angry about it. And that is understandable.
00:34:54
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:34:55
Zak
However... You look at the line of business you're and maybe understand that reputation is far more significant than anything else.
00:34:59
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:35:05
Zak
And you've ruined it.
00:35:06
DailySaintsPod
And I will get to that.
00:35:09
Zak
the
00:35:10
DailySaintsPod
The second test that would have to meet for the high bar for section 994 is the unfairness test. So the club would have to prove a breach of good faith or agreed terms, i.e. the EFL violated its terms and its articles on assigning the independent commission, the timescales included, things like that.
00:35:31
DailySaintsPod
um And that the... panel showed bad faith or bias, um effectively showed that the panel acted with lack of property, which is what it says in the statement, right? It says that we don't think there was bias, but there could have been because of the association. They should have taken more care.
00:35:51
DailySaintsPod
um And so like that would be the arguments, right? The expedited route, the prejudice panel, and the... and the conglomeration of the charges being merged together into one thing because by hearing all six charges together there's an argument that it in turn affects the level of guilt applied to the Middlesbrough consequence, right? um But effectively, the the long and short of it is, you could argue those things about um about that. You could argue the expedited process was a potential breach, was it? No. The timeline was forced by what's known as commercial reality because the EFL has a responsibility to its other shareholders and members to play the EFL Championship Playoff Final on time.
00:36:42
DailySaintsPod
That is deemed commercially acceptable and a reasonable reason to expedite the charges. So... There's no argument there. ah Was the prejudice panel route... Are we likely to hit that bar?
00:36:58
DailySaintsPod
ah do The answer is no. the the um The legal case it references is Porter v. McGill, which is would a fair-minded and informed observer conclude there was real possibility of bias? And the daily answer is no, because...
00:37:16
DailySaintsPod
because lots of people look at this judgment and go, bit harsh, but... But yes, makes sense. um And all of it is covered under the harsh but fair standard, which all courts apply to particularly sporting regulators. They'll defer to sports regulators and they will not look at it just because the decision is harsh, severe or financially damaging. It has to like tick these other boxes of no, it damaged my rights as a shareholder, which it just none of it does. right The answer across the board in all of our defenses is just no.
00:37:50
DailySaintsPod
A panel member having a minor historical connection one game for the club 30 years ago is far too remote to be deemed like a proper bias in the court of law. The other panel member who they refer to, who has a connection to Middlesbrough, worked for them as a lawyer. So is literally legally protected by the Chamber's distinction. She was never a corporate partner, but an independent sole trader. And this has precedent in football from court case further back with ah Gary Monk and a contractual dispute.
00:38:24
DailySaintsPod
the same thing. the The lawyer previously worked alongside Gary Monk in a role for a team, but was on the other side of the bench for for that decision. And is is it's a protected act, unless they are actively showing bias, which the club statement itself says not...
00:38:41
DailySaintsPod
ah it's not going to happen. So are there any other routes? Technically, the club could appeal to the High Court to set the arbitration aside as a serious irregularity under Section 68 of the Arbitration Act 1996, effectively appealing the appeal. But you'd have to like prove beyond all doubt against an incredibly high bar that the arbitration was unreasonable and a serious irregularity. which it's not, right? Like, it covers the evidence, it touches upon things.
00:39:16
DailySaintsPod
Are there parts where there are some assumptions made based off of evidence that wasn't fully presented in the writings of the commission? Guess. Is that going to be enough to hit that bar?
00:39:28
DailySaintsPod
No. um Could we go a common law judicial review approach? Potentially, but most courts would just side with the regulator. so Basically, through legal routes, no option is a good option, which is why the statement
Impact on Fans and Club Culture
00:39:45
DailySaintsPod
baffles me. So the only thing that personally can read into this statement of the next action is that next season, regardless of who our manager is, every single act of dark arts or cheating is going to be pointed out and screamed to the high rafters from Southampton.
00:40:08
Zak
Yeah, fine
00:40:09
DailySaintsPod
that's That's the route they're getting they're going to go down the petty route, which is fine.
00:40:13
Zak
like... Well, that goes tit for tat, right? That goes tit for tat.
00:40:16
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:40:17
Zak
That means that all of a sudden penalties don't really go our way because, you know, or or we are, you know, somebody keeps the ball for a bit too long and I don't know if they can necessarily make the refs do that, but it's like, why would you...
00:40:31
Zak
what's What's the benefit going to be? we're just get what We're just going to hack off the EFL.
00:40:34
DailySaintsPod
just going to antagonize the P.
00:40:35
Zak
We're going to antagonize the EFL, antagonize everybody around us, antagonize just everyone.
00:40:35
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, you're just going to antagonize the EFL.
00:40:41
Zak
It's just absolutely... It's bonkers. um it just It just seems like... rather than learning any lessons from it, they just seem to be doubling down on on being so... And get I get it. It's because, again, these people are business people. This is what they actually care about. And ah that reality is being shown.
00:40:58
Zak
But like what are they going to do when inevitably... if they continue to pursue this and they continue to completely ruin the behind the scenes and, you know, what happens when it starts to affect the the pitch, right? What happens when it starts affecting the players? What about when it starts to affect the football? Because it will. It inevitably will. You you know how important fan-centre can be. all of a sudden you turn half of the fans and you turn the stadium into a horrible atmosphere place, you see all of a sudden people, you know, literally protesting all of the the stadium's amenities, right?
00:41:28
Zak
but what's what's going to happen at that point? And say they just halfway through decide to sell up at that point. know, the thing that I think a lot of people at this point were hoping for, and then they get rid of Tonda anyway. It's just the whole thing. It's just such an unbelievable mess. And I just feel like all the things that we could have done to react to it, we seem to have picked the worst option.
00:41:49
Zak
Like, there were so many... waiter We were talking about it the other week, mate. Like, all they had to do, realistically, was turn us around, turn it around, give the price of, like, three matches off your season ticket, give a give but discount for the club shop and apologise.
00:42:01
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:42:01
Zak
Right? If they want to pursue all this stuff, potentially, if they want to do it behind the scenes, sure. But the fact that they've come out and been like, oh, well, you know, Middlesbrough are, like, that two people on the independent board, so we can't see this. We're just going to kick up a fuss when anything happens now. We're mad. And I'm like...
00:42:16
Zak
We're mad, but we did the crime. If everyone else has done it, give every give evidence of everybody else doing it. Why have we got no evidence of anyone doing it on Staplewood? Like, this is...
00:42:25
DailySaintsPod
um to be And to be clear, i so I skipped over quite a few of the other notes I've got about like ah some of the legal defences and why they might fall down.
00:42:26
Zak
ah
00:42:36
DailySaintsPod
But effectively, all of them boil down to doesn't matter how harsh the ruling was. You admitted guilt. The EFL were within their right to do whatever they wanted.
00:42:47
DailySaintsPod
You were guilty. No extra time to prepare a defence matters because you were guilty and you admitted it. No punishment is unbefitting based off of previous cases or previous precedent because you cheated and you admitted it.
00:43:02
DailySaintsPod
You brought the game into ill repute. These punishments have to meet the four criteria that the independent commission set out. which is, you know, to prevent other teams wanting to do it again and and all of this other stuff.
00:43:17
DailySaintsPod
it's it's all It all boils down to it doesn't matter, you cheated. So it's just, yeah, it is a bit baffling. Having done all of the thought and preparation into it, I started off looking and going, oh it's not done. It just means it's going drag on for ages. And the more I've looked into it, the more I'm like,
00:43:37
DailySaintsPod
for no reason. We've got no leg to stand on. ah We should just take out, you know, the the the the end of the club statement says, um we should use this experience to strengthen our judgment, discipline, and integrity, and move forward together as a club.
00:43:56
DailySaintsPod
And if it really meant that,
00:43:56
Zak
that' That's the most... See, that's the most AI generated part of this entire episode.
00:44:00
DailySaintsPod
yeah, well, that's the, That's the thing, right? Because if it really meant that, then tomorrow the first thing on the website would be video apologies from Bored Down.
00:44:11
Zak
Like, look it's not. it's been it's been It's been radio silence. It's been...
00:44:16
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:44:16
Zak
And then all this has been released. And what baffled more than anything else is, like, a backlash from, you know, not not our club. We're going to I know we're going to now set... We're now going to...
00:44:27
Zak
We're going to now receive a second wave of backlash, right, from the public.
00:44:31
DailySaintsPod
Hmm.
00:44:31
Zak
I am i am bracing for the social media to get bad again, at least for at least while this is currently the zeitgeist, because until the World Cup kicks off, there's no other football now. So it's going to be stories like this that are going to dominate the pages for two or three days.
00:44:45
Zak
There's going to be pundits having all of their their say and conversations around it. And, you know, what you could do is that if they turned around and they, you know, you had an apology and they just owned it Sure, like at least then maybe you could say, look, they're doing everything they can to move on to it.
00:44:56
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:44:59
Zak
But as you pointed out, they're not. they're getting They're throwing their toys out their pram about, oh, these two people had...
00:45:01
DailySaintsPod
Yeah. This is the thing.
00:45:04
Zak
You even pointed out when we were it the other week, and I know you've got notes on it, but like, there are like middlewin but they had somebody with ties to Middlesbrough, like a guy that played one game like 30 years ago.
00:45:14
DailySaintsPod
Yes.
00:45:14
Zak
grow Grow up. my one
00:45:17
DailySaintsPod
100%.
00:45:18
Zak
ah
00:45:18
DailySaintsPod
And look, all here's the thing, right? This statement was um was short and brief, and let's be whole wholly honest, it was only released because they needed to be seen to respond to the official release of the documents, right?
00:45:34
DailySaintsPod
And that's fine, okay? That's okay. I understand that.
00:45:38
Zak
And make it shorter. like
00:45:39
DailySaintsPod
and that No, no, no, no, no. Even the statement as it is, okay, It's a bit salty. It's the the the response to that. That's fine.
00:45:50
DailySaintsPod
I can accept that if in very quick succession, i.e. the next couple of days, we get appropriate responses, right? What we're talking about. Apologies and and other real actual responses, not just tick box. This is a response.
00:46:09
DailySaintsPod
because Because otherwise... it it just is' trying to sweep under the rug and ignore it. right This was like the last reasonable point because you cannot wait for the FA trial to conclude or the FA investigation conclude. Who knows how long that's going to take.
00:46:26
DailySaintsPod
We have another season to prepare for. If you want to sweep under the rug and move on, that's fine. You need to do it in the appropriate way. this This miniature statement is not it. If this was just where we were waiting for the official written verbiage of the appeal because we hadn't seen it, and so our lawyers and our crisis team hadn't had a chance to like digest it and figure out the next...
00:46:51
DailySaintsPod
set of action, right? And if that means that they've all sat around a big table reading a 39-page document tonight, done the similar or presumably slightly more professional things than I have done and end up on the same conclusion of what what we're trying to do here, that's fine.
00:47:07
Zak
Mate, I'm not going to lie.
00:47:09
DailySaintsPod
That's fine. If tomorrow or or the day after the action is deliberate. When that doesn't happen, or if and when that doesn't happen,
00:47:19
DailySaintsPod
then then it's the anger in me starts to build up even more, for sure. Like, I can understand it, right? Like, we talked about, like, the pace of the news world versus the pace of the business, and especially the legal and bureaucratic world, right?
00:47:33
DailySaintsPod
The fact it's taken this long to get this document out, and, that you know, to to be waiting for that, you know, they they were literally, prior to this point, going on whatever the judge said to them in the arbitration, right, which was effectively a statement of,
00:47:34
Zak
um wouldn't be surprised, mate.
00:47:50
DailySaintsPod
Yeah, uphold the appeal. I agree it was done with process. You are kicked out and you can't appeal this again. So they obviously wanted, you know, they were there and this is effectively just notes of that and dissemination. But until it's, until you have it in proper writing, you can't properly break it down. And I understand that.
00:48:09
DailySaintsPod
Okay? And that's why it has been slow. That, that is the last reasonable excuse I can even fathom for them beyond the next couple of days.
Critique of Club's Response
00:48:19
DailySaintsPod
time runs out.
00:48:21
Zak
I am making assumptions here, mate.
00:48:21
DailySaintsPod
The sound timer runs.
00:48:23
Zak
I am making assumptions. When you say they're all sat around the room making doing more professional-like things than you have today, I don't believe that. I believe that a lawyer, probably looked over it, decided to summarise it using an AI with the bits that look favourable some of them.
00:48:40
DailySaintsPod
Oh, to be fair, to be clear, I meant the lawyers.
00:48:41
Zak
I...
00:48:43
DailySaintsPod
Like,
00:48:44
Zak
Okay. Even then, like... Even then, they're...
00:48:46
DailySaintsPod
I'm under no illusion that, like, Phil Parsons is on a beach in Hawaii, mate.
00:48:48
Zak
is is thought that
00:48:51
DailySaintsPod
Like, it's...
00:48:51
Zak
Even then, they're building large language models specifically for lore now. So I would be surprised if some stuff's been run through, they've texted the club, and then the club have just been like, yeah, well, I'm still mad about this.
00:49:02
Zak
And I think i i just it's just baffling. It is... um Again, I think that it doesn't really change my opinion on the fact that, like, I don't know how I'm going to feel supporting Saints next year if Tonda's in charge and the club are, like, pursuing, like, the evil villain, like, path.
00:49:14
DailySaintsPod
Mm-hmm.
00:49:20
Zak
And I know a lot of people are like, yeah, we've been screaming out for that. I'm like, yeah, ive been screaming out for, like, you know, a bit more aggression in tackles and, like, pulling for the shirt and stuff like that. I'm not like, not for like full blown, like spy cheating, espionage undercover, shouting at analysts and analysts just like doing their own thing with no rules whatsoever.
00:49:40
Zak
Like a rogue cop going for justice.
00:49:40
DailySaintsPod
Mate, it's...
00:49:42
Zak
Like there's, there's, they're very different things.
00:49:45
DailySaintsPod
It's not a fair comparison, and it's maybe not even right to say on air, but my ADHD brain genuinely tonder his groove, and all of the analysts are just different minions.
00:49:45
Zak
Man.
00:49:58
DailySaintsPod
right Like, are you telling me standing behind the tree with an iPhone isn't just a Kevin move?
00:50:04
Zak
that's me that's me pulling out like historiography references for my degree in college but like at university sorry and you're just start like i know what i'll do that's comparing to despicable being do you know what you're probably more accurate like nothing about it there
00:50:08
DailySaintsPod
LAUGHTER
00:50:15
DailySaintsPod
yeah
00:50:19
DailySaintsPod
that's it we're gonna expand St Mary's by stealing the moon like yeah yeah
00:50:21
Zak
god
00:50:25
Zak
But like, that's what I mean. It's almost farcical and it reeks of petulence and it reeks of, we're not going to on from this. And we're not going to be able to move on from it because the people that have the money and the business people, they they don't want to move on from me yet. So we're all stuck reliving this now until eventually they spend a bunch of money and go, ah, it's going to cost too much now. Should we just suck it off?
00:50:47
Zak
Whilst everybody looks over us with a microscope.
00:50:48
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:50:50
Zak
If Tottenham's in charge, we're going to have to part with that the whole of the season. Any success he brings now is going to be tainted. And that's one of the reasons that, like, you know, i understand that from a managerial perspective, you want to go with somebody else because, you know, um like you don't want to go with somebody else because it's an unknown.
00:51:06
Zak
But I just don't even know what next season is going to bring at this point anyway, because I don't know how much success he can achieve in what will be a hostile environment everywhere. It might be that we end up, you know, six months from now, after being screamed and shouted at by every fan under the sun, that we end up, you know, closing up shop and bringing up the drawbridge and being a bit more behind the team. But it's just kind of like all of this is completely outside of our control.
00:51:29
Zak
ah you feel it all just feels a bit gross. But I also get why people are still like, well, we've got no other better options than, like, he did go on this winning streak. And by the sounds of it, maybe it wasn't every single game.
00:51:42
Zak
Because if it was every single game, feel like it would have maybe been a little bit better planned than just sort of, like, an off-the-cuff comment that, you know, don't know.
00:51:47
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:51:52
Zak
Again, it's just all too many missing pieces.
00:51:53
DailySaintsPod
um under I'm under no and under no illusion. for For me, I'm under no illusion that it was more times than we've copped up to. I also don't think it was every game. okay right the The answer, again, somewhere in the middle. right um But, yeah. ah it It is all a bit gross. For me, the way I've read it, obviously, of having read all of it and all of the context... um This written set of evidence feels slightly less negative on Ponder than the other.
00:52:29
DailySaintsPod
um Like, it's still obviously there's negligence there at best, and... and bad culture at worst, right?
00:52:40
DailySaintsPod
Like one of the genuine defenses in the article is, uh, well, asked that cause I didn't know it was a rule.
00:52:43
Zak
Oh, it's...
00:52:47
DailySaintsPod
I asked them if we could go and someone said, yes. So we went and that, so that was, that was the conversation. Uh, but it it just doesn't excuse the rest of it.
00:52:57
DailySaintsPod
Uh, it, it, it's yeah.
00:53:00
Zak
It's not malicious, but ignorance, unfortunately, isn't it? You know, you can't just say, I'm sorry, officer, i didn't realise that, you know, speedy was against the law.
00:53:04
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:53:09
Zak
okay then.
00:53:10
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:53:10
Zak
Well, then I'll throw off the hook.
00:53:11
DailySaintsPod
And look, it still makes statements like, try and get something better this time, last time was rubbish. Pretty gross, right? And it still makes... And and look, you don't know the context of the the other go-between, right? If Analyst won, the one that's gone viral, the new legend mate manager loved it. Like, that is such a...
00:53:35
DailySaintsPod
so many, like the other chats and conversations that won't even be recorded in form of WhatsApp message, like so many social interactions are summed up into that very short sentence that is going to be ripped and taken out of context in a million different ways.
00:53:53
DailySaintsPod
um But it's not, it's still not great. ah But for me, look, it's, it It looks slightly less bad on Tondra. I wouldn't say better. It's still bad.
00:54:09
DailySaintsPod
ah but But the club's inability to let it go is, is you're right, the main concern of where the damage could potentially get done.
00:54:18
Zak
Yeah, like i think i think I think that's where I'm at as well, because if like he came out and been like, look, I didn't realise that it was as frowned upon, this is entirely... you know And I think he's he to said, like yeah, this is my fault and stuff, but like you know even just like a com even if he'd come out and gave him that some safe conversation and statement, and I feel like partly it's probably due to this FA investigation, so what's the point of doing it if he's going to lose his job anyway?
00:54:43
Zak
But like it just seems that the way this club has handled it from from top to bottom... And then like ah Glenn from TSP has made like a couple of of good points as well. Like nothing's really been said about Keegan. Nothing was said about Fonte's retirement the other day. you know, club captain for years, literally like from the bottom to the top. There's just a lot at the moment where they're so they're so in their headspace of like what is going on.
00:55:08
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:55:08
Zak
right? With like all of this and being all annoyed and and angry. And you said, like, as you said, there might be that Parsons on a beach in Hawaii or he's not yet. And he's trying to get it over the line so he can go on his beach holiday. And like, if he if people feel insulted by, or he feels insulted or not that he listens to the fans like us anyway, but like, if he feels insulted by that statement,
00:55:28
Zak
it's like well that's what how that's how we see you currently like that's the that's that's the impression that's being given off to hard-working fans you know who've paid all this money all of this season for having ripped away the players that we're not going be able to see next season the players that are going to feel betrayed the players that aren't going to play for us again potentially because of everything you know there might be some that will be happy with you know is it is a bit money we're sorry yeah okay whatever let's roll on to next season but There will be some that will be like, well, I didn't know about going, but now I'm definitely going to go.
00:55:32
DailySaintsPod
you
00:56:01
Zak
don't really want to stay here because of all this stuff. This sounds like it's going to terrible fallout.
00:56:04
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:56:06
Zak
It's just, it is a horrible culture.
00:56:08
DailySaintsPod
be fallout in just about every way and ah none of that is going to be felt properly until until the players are back properly from the holidays and we start looking at pre-season.
00:56:21
DailySaintsPod
And it's it's just a horrible like the limbo state we find ourselves in. just not knowing. For what it's worth, having done some more legal digging, um the outcomes expected for any current players, either even trying to or successfully managing to take legal action against the club is low.
00:56:28
Zak
Just...
00:56:45
DailySaintsPod
um There's not a lot of grounds for it. um For commercial partners, it is medium to high. but who knows what that looks like realistically.
00:56:57
Zak
Yeah, like, rather than trying to apologize to those guys, what you've done is go, well, I'm annoyed. at but That's the other thing. It's the message that it reaches out to, you know. For for years, we were like, oh, man, we don't have a gambling sponsor.
00:57:07
Zak
We finally have, like, P&O Cruises. I mean, you can just win a cruise at halftime. And it's like, you wonder what reputational damage it's going to do long term, right?
00:57:15
DailySaintsPod
Yeah.
00:57:16
Zak
And I feel like, depending on who we see going forward, it would be...
00:57:16
DailySaintsPod
ah I don't like giving ah don't like giving credit to The Sun as ah but at all. i hate it. It's fine. For for many, many reasons. ah But actually, Jack Ross of The Sun...
00:57:34
DailySaintsPod
has put a tweet out that actually i think sums up my opinion quite nicely too. um Southampton, having initially misled the EFL, are still trying to fight and argue elements of the Spygate case. It is pathetic.
00:57:49
DailySaintsPod
No one has yet been sacked for their actions.
00:57:52
Zak
Yeah, and then, ah now and now we've got, you know,
00:57:53
DailySaintsPod
what What else is there to say, really? He's not wrong. That's an outsider's perspective and that's what it will be.
00:58:05
Zak
Grim, innit?
00:58:07
DailySaintsPod
All right, mate. Yeah.
00:58:08
Zak
We were, having some fun. We were, like, looking forward. We got, like, some silly awards coming up. We were looking forward into, like, a deep dive, talking about some specific matches, really even some, like, good parts of the season.
00:58:20
Zak
Unfortunately, this is just going to overhang, like, a bad smell until, as you pointed out, the next season starts, to be honest.
00:58:26
DailySaintsPod
yeah
00:58:27
Zak
Even then, probably won't be over. But man, they doing everything in their power to make us look as as sort of Umbrella Corporation Skynet as possible.
00:58:38
DailySaintsPod
Pre-grim. Pre-grim.
00:58:39
Zak
Insert other evil corporation names.
00:58:42
DailySaintsPod
Indeed.
00:58:42
Zak
yeah
00:58:42
DailySaintsPod
Right, mate. Look, this this is now our longest episode of all time, so I think that we we'd better call it there.
00:58:49
Zak
Good lord.
00:58:51
DailySaintsPod
Thank you, everyone, for listening and sticking with us through this.
00:58:51
Zak
me Thank you. no. and no like like Thank you to the people. Don't get me wrong, that's true. just wanted to thank you massively for all your hard work on this.
00:59:02
Zak
because while Whilst I was stuck doing some overtime for work today, I knew that you were working hard on it, mate, because I was getting a stream of consciousness on my WhatsApp, just pinging every five minutes to the point where my wife was genuinely worried that something had happened
Podcast Conclusion and Future Plans
00:59:17
Zak
to you.
00:59:17
Zak
because and that you were trying to get hold of me. And I was like, nah, he's just reading a really big document. So I'm getting every single individual thought that is worthy of him writing the 70 points of notes.
00:59:28
Zak
So massive, massive thanks to you, mate, honestly.
00:59:28
DailySaintsPod
my wife turned to me and said, you haven't spoke or moved for 23 minutes. What are you doing?
00:59:39
DailySaintsPod
and
00:59:39
Zak
Exactly. So, so yeah, and obviously...
00:59:40
DailySaintsPod
Just reading the most recent legal documents, obviously. page 26 of 39. It's fine. Yeah.
00:59:47
Zak
something we never thought we'd do. Like, it used to just be easy. would like read that but then the first two paragraphs of BBC Sport then, or what else? Sky Sports or whatever. Just be like, that's crazy. And now, you know, you do a daily podcast and all of a sudden an hour of your day is taken up. I'll tell you what you want to make. If you've, if you've done more work into reading all of this than some of the other people that are professionally involved in it, that's,
01:00:09
Zak
It's just a lot of that. But yeah, obviously, thank you to all of our listeners as well for sticking with us for such a long time. Sorry it wasn't the bright, fun content that you wanted, but if you want the deepest of dives into what has been put out into the universe from Southampton and also the EFL, Greg's summary is a fantastic, fantastic version of it.
01:00:34
Zak
So thank very much, mate, and thank very much to all our listeners as per...
01:00:36
DailySaintsPod
on I'm glad you enjoyed it, mate. But look, let's ah let's close at least this chapter. Barring any additional statements or news or noise from the club or elsewhere, ah tomorrow we're going be back to our regularly scheduled content, I think.
01:00:55
DailySaintsPod
But... we I guess we're just going to have to take it as it comes at this point, mate. Can't can't plan too far ahead. You just never know. ah going to say who's lurking in the bushes around the corner, but maybe that's not the right churn phrase.
01:01:09
DailySaintsPod
Anyway, thank you again, everyone. Let us know your thoughts and comments.
01:01:15
Zak
Oh.
01:01:16
DailySaintsPod
We are Daily Saints pod absolutely everywhere. TikTok, Facebook, Blue Sky, YouTube, X, ever everywhere. Instagram, ah all of them. Hit us up, let us know.
01:01:29
DailySaintsPod
Until tomorrow, everyone, have a wonderful day and we will see you then.