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The Significance of Star Trek: First Contact
262 Plays1 year ago
In this episode, Satsunami is joined by Sean from the Review It Yourself podcast to discuss the iconic film Star Trek: First Contact. After all these years, does this film still hold up? How does it compare to the new generation of the show? And was it the beginning of the end? All this and more in this latest episode!
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chat Tsunami. My name's Sat Tsunami and joining me today aboard the USS Chat Tsunami is none other than the one and only Sean from Review It Yourself. Sean, welcome back. Pleasure to be here, pleasure to be here. Yes, it is a bit rocky on this ship but we'll make do. This is the movie version so everything's a wee bit dark, you know, the colours are muted but we'll persevere won't we?
00:00:44
Speaker
But, yeah, how are
Challenges in Podcasting
00:00:46
Speaker
you doing tonight? Yeah, I can't complain. It's absolutely boiling hot. So apologies for the listeners if you get any background noise, but I mean, I've turned my fan off, but I'm not doing this with the window shut. I'm sorry. I don't care how much audio quality is important for podcasts, but we're humans, you know? We're not assimilated like the Borg. We need fresh air. Well, to be fair, they did turn up heating in this film. Yes, actually, yes, they need a perfect temperature too, so... Yeah, I hope that's not going to be the twist by the end of this episode that will be like resistances for your time.
00:01:12
Speaker
Listen to Chatsunami and review it yourself. Your podcast will be assimilated into ours. Well, it fears that sometimes, doesn't it? Oh, absolutely. Desperately tried to assimilate people to listen to your podcast. Now, I'm not saying that good poets is like the Borg cube of podcasts, but you know they've gone awful quiet since this episode.
00:01:33
Speaker
well I don't know what I make of it you know I think I've heard people against them I've heard people for them I think it's nice that somebody's trying to do something for indie podcasts but feeling it's such an uphill battle you know everybody seems to do the podcast now like absolutely even like some of my favorite comedians who I never thought would ever do anything like a podcast have started and it's like oh my god I don't know it just seems to be becoming such a mainstream thing but like all the little indie podcasts were still not getting like massive traction I love there's a lot out there but
00:01:59
Speaker
Because even when I started streaming in the 2020s, that was the big thing I noticed. People were starting YouTube channels, they were starting Twitch channels, that kind of thing. I noticed that a wee bit, and I noticed that obviously more when I started Chatsanami. But as you said, it feels as if now there is a massive spike. I keep getting notifications saying, hey, do you want to improve your podcast? And I'm like, no, I'm talking about Star Trek today. Go away.
00:02:28
Speaker
Oh, just every time you listen to something, you can be listening to the football and it's like, and catch up with our brand new podcast. And you're like, what? You're on television? Oh, really? You don't get a podcast. You can have one. Anybody can have one. But I thought it was this nice, nice little thing. Oh, God, I think I set my phaser to fucking depression at this one, didn't I? Right, beg it over. Come on. Sorry, everybody. If I just turn in the phasers onto ourselves, this might be like a bloody mainstream podcast.
00:02:54
Speaker
This is our dominion war, that's what we're saying. Can we keep them in the neutral zone? They've crossed into Federation space. And if Paramount or Paramount Plus or any representatives would
Star Trek Discussion Begins
00:03:05
Speaker
like to make first contact with ourselves, please let us know because we could talk about Star Trek for
00:03:10
Speaker
absolutely so yeah i mean i can talk about star trek until 2005 for a long time after that gets a little bit sketchy so i'm gonna go satsu for that if you want me to do anything pre 2005 i'm your guy but after that i'm not really i mean it's okay i'll give it a go
00:03:26
Speaker
But that raises an interesting question because before we talk about the film I'm going to be talking about today which is arguably the best Star Trek film that they've produced, at least in the TNG era. What is your history with Star Trek? Have you always been a Trekkie or did it happen in later life?
00:03:45
Speaker
I wasn't really given much choice. I mean, you know, we've all got baby videos. Well, usually there's probably as generations go on, but in the back of our baby videos, you had one or two things. You either had the football or Star Trek. There was never an in between. So I kind of wasn't given much choice. You know, I've said it before on my own podcast.
00:04:00
Speaker
I'm not massively into Star Wars. It's just nothing. It's not something I ever got into. My dad didn't watch it, so it never went on. My dad's massively into films and TV series. He loves them. But if he didn't like them, I didn't fancy them. I didn't go on. So I didn't see quite a lot of stuff like that. And watching things like Star Wars later on, you know, in your late twenties.
00:04:16
Speaker
it doesn't quite have, sorry everybody, it doesn't quite have the same impact. Whereas when you've grown up with Star Trek, you know, I remember watching the original series as a kid, obviously not when it was first out, and watching Next Generation when it was first out. And then you got Duke says nine of course, and then into watching Voyager as well. I can't really remember watching Enterprise, but I'm sure my dad watched it and just loved them. I loved seeing like the new, who the new captains were going to be. You know, we got Jane way, who was fantastic. We got Cisco. So yeah, and I just love like seeing as the new captains were, although Cisco was a commander and
00:04:46
Speaker
I was talking to a trackie at work and I was talking to the captain and she was like, oh actually, Cisco was a commander and then a captain, but yeah. So it's something that I always watched, or at least there was always that in the house. No, I'm not going to pretend as a kid, as a really young kid during the 90s, I was watching it way too late because I wasn't. But it was always around and it was always something that I watched and I really, really enjoyed. And then obviously going back to with the extra time we had over the past few years to watch things, I went back and watched The Next Generation. I've got the whole DVD box set of that. Love that one.
00:05:13
Speaker
You know, it's one of those things that, you know, if you're away from home or you're flicking through the channels, there's always a Star Trek plane somewhere. So it's always like a go-to for me and it always has been. I like the, certainly in the pre-2005 Trek, I like the fact that yes, like in first contact, it can get incredibly, incredibly dark, but I like the fact, I've no doubt we'll come out this later, but I always liked the fact that Star Trek said, like, look, we will get past all these petty differences. We'll get past this, the future won't be perfect, but it will be much more of a kind of a utopia.
00:05:42
Speaker
Which, you know, I think, yeah, of course, it's a bit, it's a bit pie in the sky, no pun intended, but I think it's a nicer way to look than, oh yeah, well, we'll just then kind of dystopian sci-fi. I think that's what makes Star Trek stand out above a lot of other science fiction, as much as I love a bit of dark science fiction. I think it stands out in that respect that you're always looking ahead with this kind of positive message of we'll get there, we'll get there, rather than what some of the latest Star Trek's have been doing, which is basically, yeah, you know all the problems we've got today. Yeah, we've still got them.
00:06:09
Speaker
That's my big gripe with the latest stuff now. It's just so dystopian that it's not Star Trek in my opinion. That's an argument for another day. Yeah, that's next week's episode. But funny enough you say that about not really being exposed to Star Wars because I was actually in the opposite camp. I ended up watching a lot of Star Wars but when I came to Star Trek
00:06:29
Speaker
Star Trek for me growing up in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was seen as this very geeky thing, which you know, it's kind of more mainstream now. It got the Dungeons and Dragons treatment as it were, where it used to be this really niche thing and
00:06:46
Speaker
It had its fan base, but people would be like, oh, a Trekkie and everything, oh, point of years. But then, of course, when it got more popular, it's more acceptable, quote unquote, I suppose, to like it in the mainstream. But I never really watched Star Trek. I knew all of it. But I was definitely more into Star Wars and everything. And then I made friends with someone in school. And the closer we got, he started saying, oh, do you want to watch some Star Trek over at mine? And I was like, yeah.
00:07:16
Speaker
guess and they put on TNG and absolutely loved it. I thought it was so fascinating that it wasn't all about fighting and it wasn't all about constant conflict and obviously there is conflict in pre-enterprise Star Trek but at the same time it wasn't always like that. They had time where they took steps back
00:07:40
Speaker
to come up with a diplomatic solution and really talk out their problems. It didn't always work. Sometimes I had to resort to the phaser every so often, especially in Deep Space 9, but that's a whole other thing. I was actually saying to you before we started recording tonight that during the 2020 lockdown
00:07:58
Speaker
I binged Deep Space Nine, and although that has its dark elements that you would usually associate with more of a darker series, I absolutely fell in love with it because it brought up so many interesting questions without compromising what made Star Trek Star Trek
00:08:15
Speaker
don't get me wrong there are one or two things like the whole section there to one thing which you know that became completely over the top and everything but it was a show that was just as you said it stood out it was completely different and I absolutely loved it but I have to say in terms of the films
00:08:33
Speaker
I never really watched many of them. I watched bits and pieces. I think I actually watched the JJ Abrams films like the first two before I got round to watching The Ocean Picture, the TOS ones and of course only recently I've actually caught up and watched well most of the TMG films which
00:08:54
Speaker
It's been quite an interesting insight comparing it to the series, but see without any further ado, I feel as if we have kept back our thoughts long enough, so as always, we will be right back after these transmissions. Welcome to Shatsunami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime in general interest.
00:09:14
Speaker
Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises. Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all the podcast apps. As always, stay safe,
00:09:44
Speaker
Stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated. This episode is sponsored by Zencaster. If you're a podcaster that records remotely like me, then you'll know how challenging it can be to create the podcast you've always wanted. That's where Zencaster comes in. Before I met Zencaster, I was put a naive podcaster, recording on low-quality, one-track audio waves.
00:10:23
Speaker
I want you to have the same easy experience I do for all my podcasting and content needs. It's time to share your story.
00:10:35
Speaker
Imagine a race of beings possessed of one mind driven by one will, intent on one purpose to seize our past and control our future.
00:10:58
Speaker
Set a course for Earth. Maximum warp. Now, one captain against orders. Red Alert! All hands to battle stations! Must succeed where all others have failed. It looks like the control deck's 26 up to 11. They have assimilated more than half the ship. Surrender yourself or we will destroy your ship. The line must be drawn here.
00:11:28
Speaker
On November 22nd, resistance is futile. Star Trek. First contact.
'Star Trek: First Contact' Deep Dive
00:11:36
Speaker
So let's talk some first contacts because I think the reason we had the idea for this episode was I had put up a thing on Twitter saying that I was watching it and then you replied saying if you want someone to talk to you about it on an episode then I'm here and I was like yes get back on this podcast. The bake-off's not on for another couple of months, get back on here.
00:12:00
Speaker
That's true. I saw it and I was like, oh, me, me, please. Well, because it's always great to chat with you. But then, I mean, it's Star Trek and it's some of the best stuff they've done. I mean, I could be the best film they've done. I can't pass this up. Like, I don't care how many other people he talks to about the other ones. I need to take first contact because I remember I again, I watched the films a little bit later as well. Didn't, certainly didn't watch them when they came out. And when you watch them all together, like first contact is one of the ones that, you know.
00:12:22
Speaker
Yes, with Wrath of Khan, we know. But in terms of the TNG one, like the next generation, it is by far the best one, just in terms of an all-round film, and the tone, and the characters, although we'll come out of the characters later. But I keep, sorry, I must remember I'm not hosting this one. But yeah, I mean, it's such a standout film, and I was like, I have to talk about this. Because, you know, the Star Wars, especially later, you know, it kind of thunders above all. And, you know, I sometimes feel like it's like, oh, can we talk about some classic Star Trek?
00:12:46
Speaker
I know there's a lot of love for it out there and there's quite a few podcasts who do tricky stuff but still I have to, I have to talk about this one. Would you believe though that this is the very first episode that we've had talking about Star Trek? I mean technically there is one on Patreon where I was talking about Picard but in terms of the mainstream this is really the first episode that I actually get to geek out about Star Trek with someone else on
00:13:12
Speaker
the channel so absolutely I am so excited because when I first heard about this film I think...
00:13:19
Speaker
I must have been about four or five-year-old when First Contact came out. It came out in 1996, so I was definitely far too young to be watching it. I'd have been about four or five, yeah. Let alone know what Star Trek was at the time. Unfortunately, I wouldn't have been there for the big event or anything, but I bet you there's a couple of older Trekkies just shaking their heads, listening to this, being like, oh man, I remember I was there first day.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, I was actually surprised at how well this film held up because it seems as if they've got quite an infamous reputation, don't they? Oh, the film's definitely, I mean, there's the whole, I can't remember, the odd ones that are meant to be bad, the Evens or whatever. They're not as topsy-turvy as say the Halloween franchise, so let's not get too ahead of ourselves, but they are a little bit, you know, the quality does go up and down. It's because some of the films, especially like the original series and the next generation ones,
00:14:12
Speaker
They go kind of a little bit out to left field every now and again, and you can either go with that concept or you can't. And if you can go with it, enjoy yourself great. But if you can't go with it, it might be rid of a schlock, you know? So it's one of those things, but this had a really good setup as well. I mean, they're saying it that six years ago, Picard was assimilated by the Borg, which was in the best of both worlds, part one, which is the series three finale, episode 26. And then the best of both worlds, part two was the opener for season four, obviously episode one. So it fit in really nicely, which actually was out in 1990. So technically it was six years ago.
00:14:41
Speaker
This film starts and you get that fantastic sweeping score which they've just used for Picard actually, a season 3, which is by Jerry Goldsmith and it's just unbelievable. It's probably one of the best Star Trek themes you've got outside of Voyager but it's just lovely. But something I do find really interesting about this film in particular is there's a lot of films out there in Star Trek that they don't really reference that much.
00:15:06
Speaker
unless they've made a big impact. Like for example with the JJ Abrams films, you have the infamous Into Darkness where they do the whole Cannes storyline. I still haven't got over that. Ah yeah, I know it's different timelines and everything but the fact that you have this reboot referencing a film from
00:15:26
Speaker
years and years ago and they're using it as a plot line for the new films. You know that is interesting that they're still using it and it's the same with First Contact because one of the things I do find absolutely fascinating though about First Contact is the fact that they really draw
00:15:44
Speaker
a lot of references, homages, whatever you want to call them, towards this film in later series. Like for example, Enterprise has tons of them. They use the launch of the Phoenix in the intro. They have the whole mirror universe episode where they have seen by seeing the first contact scene but instead of Cochran giving his hand in
00:16:08
Speaker
trying shippy things out of shotgun and guns down the Vulcans is a fantastic episode, it's so stupid and over the top it's great but the reference that they are as you said in Picard at the very end they use the really just iconic soundtrack from this film so the fact that even now in 2023 that they're still referencing this film is just absolutely fantastic and it just shows how beloved this is within the franchise
00:16:37
Speaker
It's just so well put together, I'd forgotten it was part of the enterprise opening scenes actually. But yeah, of course it's been a long road. You're either with that or you're not. See, I'm worth it but there are so many people and I was shocked when I heard that people don't like that. You can find some pretty nice online streaming sites where people have made their own instrumentation version of that song.
00:16:56
Speaker
And it works quite well. I think it worked well for what people expected but when you compare it to all the Star Trek themes that came before it, it was such a different way of doing it. I mean, it was like, whoa, what's this? And especially using a pre-existing song as well, although it does fit. But you have those fantastic scores from Goldsmith and all of a sudden you get this and you get a pre-existing song. It was a bit of a shock for people, I think. Can you imagine if they used something like this on this album?
00:17:20
Speaker
The boar cube just assimilating there for all you hear is, it's been a long road. I think people would have walked out being like, nah, this is a mock-up of tea, sorry guys. But as you said though, the intro to this film is absolutely fantastic, but I do have one. Well, no, sorry, make that two slight gripes.
00:17:40
Speaker
about it. Don't get me wrong, there'll be a couple of nitpicks I'm going to throw out here but overall, spoilers. Absolutely love this song and also spoilers again that we are going to be talking about spoilers so if you haven't watched first contact yet, feel free to pause the episode, go watch it, come back.
00:17:56
Speaker
and yeah, feel free to join us on this. But the two main issues I have is, I feel as if this is kind of a thing that is carried on throughout the rest of the series and it's kind of a thing that it set a precedent to what was to come later. The fact that it was more action-heavy, action-oriented and a bit more glory at times, because you see the beginning that Picard has, as you said, six years previously he's captured by the Borg and
00:18:23
Speaker
it's just really terrifying visuals but then we have a fake jump scare where he's like looking in the mirror and a boar, I don't know, whisk or something, bobs out of his cheek and then he wakes up again and it's like, was that necessary? I loved it me, I loved it because it harks back to, and I don't think they've made the episode by them, but I think there's an episode, is it Enterprise or Voyager, where they invent the teleporters and it's like the first tack out of which one it is. It's been a long time and a long road.
00:18:50
Speaker
the first guy to teleport ceased through his hand and it's a bit of like a strange kind of battery future moment but no I enjoyed it yes it is a bit nightmarish but I think it plays into kind of his state of mind but it didn't come across as like a cheap jump scare but I thought the intro was brilliant I love that whole intro I think
00:19:05
Speaker
the issue i have with it isn't so much like the beginning bit where he's trapped in the cube and it zooms out and everything i think that's incredibly done but you know the way when he wakes up and then he has to wake himself up again so he's like in a dream within a dream i was kind of like right okay they've just thrown it in because it's a movie and everything
00:19:24
Speaker
But then, of course, we go from that to the huge action scene where the Federation are fighting the Borg and, honestly God, I love it. I'm going to be honest. I know Star Trek isn't or it didn't used to be as much of an action-oriented show and everything, but oh my God, it is so cool seeing all these Federation ships just blasting the hell out of Borg cube or trying to.
00:19:47
Speaker
Perhaps today is a good day to die. I think that was part of like the specialness of Star Trek in that they always had the weapons, but the weapons were kind of like after we thought about it and planned it out. They never really had space battles. That was kind of a special episode. Usually the finale is all like a big storyline, but really few far between. It was always more the threat in an episode and that kind of tension. Whereas in this, I mean, like I said, you said like the fighting and all different star ships, it's just, oh, it's
00:20:11
Speaker
The only other nitpick, as I was alluding to before, was when we finally see the Defiant doing what it was described to do in Deep Space Nine when they say, oh the Defiant, which is this new, for anyone who doesn't know, it was like this new Federation ship that was built purely for warfare and it was built specifically
00:20:32
Speaker
to counter the Borg as a prototype. But it's one of these things that I have seen in a lot of films and series where they always build up a particular thing, especially the defiant. The defiant, they're always saying it's the best ship in the fleet, it's blah blah blah, it does this, it does that, it cooks your toast in the morning, gets you a coffee, reads you the newspaper and then when push comes to shove, it gets absolutely bloody destroyed nearly. Unsinkable city, is it?
00:20:58
Speaker
Exactly, yeah. Cough, cough, yeah. You just knew I was going to drop that. Yeah, they did kind of build it for the new Federation battle fleet. But then again, though, I mean, if we're going to start nitpicking, the Enterprise, whether it's, you know, the B-class or D-class or E-class or whatever you want to go, there's many letters in the alphabet as Picard says in this, but that's supposed to be like one of the greatest ships in the fleet. The amount of time it gets blown up or like the dish flies off, there's quite a few times. And flipping back, in the JJ Abrams universe, it's crashing every other week. So,
00:21:27
Speaker
That is one thing I absolutely hated about those films. Purely the fact that every single film that's getting blown up and I'm like, really? I mean they didn't even get that blown up in the TOS films with the exception of the third film, Rest in Peace Enterprise.
00:21:43
Speaker
Eh, I don't know. Yeah, I know what you mean. It's always getting destroyed or pieces pulled apart and I know the reason why they have to define it's purely because of Worf being introduced in the story. Which I always find weird that they brought in Worf but they didn't bring in Obraian or any of those characters because actually that was something that we and I were actually talking about before we started this episode about how Whoopi Goldberg who plays Gaiden in the TNG scene
00:22:12
Speaker
and she has a long standing test to do with the work, wasn't even asked. See I've thought about this and I think if they'd have had her in it as Dinan, she was always like a sounding board for Picard, you know when he went to the bar and that kind of thing. I think if they'd have had her in this she would have taken the role of Lily, I think she'd have taken that lady's role. So I think to kind of count that they're like right well she's not in this one.
00:22:36
Speaker
and I'm not sure if they, I mean I don't know if she's still in the nexus, I'm not sure how they kind of, I don't think they even address it but who knows. No I don't think so and I think the reason behind that is it's going back to what was saying that these films say are president of being more
00:22:51
Speaker
action-oriented rather than... I'm not saying that all the episodes of TNG were slow-burner thinkers and things like that. There were a couple of action-y-esque ones, but you know, they were never like over the top, partly because they didn't have the budget for it probably, but
00:23:08
Speaker
You could definitely see that during this time, and I was looking that up earlier, but during this time I think Voyager had just started in 1995 and at this point DS9, the show that was oriented towards a huge galactic war between the Federation
00:23:28
Speaker
in all of its allies versus the Dominion in all of its allies, so like the anti-federation as it were. So the Federation at this point were getting geared more towards a militaristic aspect. So you could see especially on the enterprise itself that they did have the holodeck and everything but
00:23:48
Speaker
What they also have, which is something that bled through unfortunately to later seasons, whether that be Discovery or God forbid Picard, where the ships don't really feel like a home, you know, they feel very cold inside, very metallic, yeah. Yeah, Discovery, I mean, if you like it, fantastic, right?
00:24:08
Speaker
But it's just, I stuck with it for a season, series. So I can't, I didn't try, mainly for Jason Isaacs, if I'm honest. I watched it cause he was in it. And I just thought the main character, I just thought she was just so unlikable and she gets kicked off and kicked out the Federation. Then she's back and she's the first officer. And it was just like what they did in the kind of the reboot, the 2009, which I enjoyed, but that was very much like, Oh, well pick cards on board. So I guess we'll make a first officer. It's like, we'll just.
00:24:32
Speaker
It's definitely kind of doesn't work like this you don't just walk in and get and you know those swearing in it and it just felt modern in a lot of ways that it was like no this is this just isn't right and it got boring and it dragged I mean god I think it's just been cancelled or ended or whatever you want to say but it's like four or five series I don't know anybody who's still watching it in real life I mean I know
00:24:50
Speaker
There's always people on the socials who say, oh, it's the best thing ever, which is, if it is for you, then good for you, because I don't know anybody who watches it. And then the same with the other one. Picard. Picard, yeah. Again, I mean, tried to watch the first series of that. Oh, God, almost unwatchable. I mean, this broken, decrepit old Picard. Nobody wants to see that.
00:25:07
Speaker
And then I think I've heard on the grapevine, I've not watched it yet, but I've heard that I couldn't bring myself to watch the second series and then the third series apparently, because room has it, it's been made by people who like love Star Trek. I'm not saying the other people didn't, but apparently it's been made by someone who really like is a proper Trekkie. That's really kind of turned it around, also I've heard. But there's just some of the rubbish that's thrown out there with like the lower decks one that looks like a cartoon. It looks like a cross between Star Trek and Family Guy, but not as inventive.
00:25:32
Speaker
and then you've got Strange New Worlds which is like, I was saying this to the person at work, the Trekkie at work, like when did the Star Trek series stop standing on her own two feet? That Discovery one, like she was Spock's sister or some absolute, just convoluted rubbish. It was just absolute, oh, you swear on us, absolute shit. It was just absolute rubbish, just grasped out of nowhere by, you know, is that the best you've got? Star Trek used to be really inventive, like yes, it started to struggle in its later years with Enterprise and it kind of eventually gets cancelled and they all finished, but they were always trying to do something new, they always had new captains,
00:26:02
Speaker
cruise yeah they had a few characters like wharf and the doctor who would like float around every now and again a pair of different things but the last few series have just been like and then you get strange new worlds i have no interest in watching that hiking before the original series like no no why don't you just make something new and sell it on its own merit but they just don't seem to be able to do that i think people forget now how much of a gamble like the next generation was a lot of people think i thought of the type not that i was there
00:26:23
Speaker
but a lot of people apparently thought at the time that this was going to be a real struggle because when you've got the original crew there, this isn't going to work. Whereas now, if anything, I would argue that the next generation's arguably a little bit more popular than the original series, maybe it's just a passage of time, who knows? But it was a big gamble. See, the thing is though, and especially with this film, they are definitely a time-capture of the way that sci-fi was seen.
Star Trek's Societal Themes
00:26:47
Speaker
at the time so for example with the 60s and 70s you know it's very much that very campiness it's over the top you know it's oh look at us look at our idea of peace through the stars because you know 60s and 70s that was the kind of big movement at the time whereas with the 80s and 90s it was a
00:27:07
Speaker
little bit more cynical, but not to the extent that it is nowadays. And when you get to the late 90s with the next generation films, like especially The First Contact with Nemesis as well, those films have much more of an age, especially the ones that lead into the early 2000s. And I feel as if
00:27:27
Speaker
The first contact seems to be that sweet spot, to be honest, between one that's overly gritty versus one that maybe doesn't go far enough. For example, with Star Trek Insurrection, which I was surprised that came after this. I thought it came well before, but that was just very campy over the top. It was more of a long
00:27:49
Speaker
episode. Then you've got Nemesis, which is the absolute opposite end where it's nothing but action that's got a lot of quite, I suppose, problematic elements now that you look at it, you know, with the whole invading people's minds. And I'll just leave that sentence there for anyone who hasn't seen it. But you know, you get to this film and you get a genuinely terrifying villain because I feel as if nowadays the Borg have become almost
00:28:16
Speaker
Funko Popified, if that makes sense. You know that idea of a villain that was absolutely amazing on its debut with the TNG series and then they brought them back a couple of times and then they kind of brought them back a little too much in Voyager. Do you watch Doctor Who much Shatsu? Right, I've got a perfect comparison for the Borg. The perfect comparison for the Borg in New Who, Doctor Who since 2005 is The Weeping Angels. The first
00:28:42
Speaker
first time they appeared, they were terrified. Then they brought it back again. They were slightly less scary. Then they brought it back again. Then they brought it back again. And it's like, right, you've deluded them now. No, you're absolutely spot on. Because, yeah, the weeping angels were just terrifying when you first saw them. They were, for anyone who doesn't know, they were just like stone statues that
00:29:00
Speaker
as soon as you blinked or looked away from them they were able to move but they would contort themselves into really scary positions and the light would be flickering and they managed to get you and it was absolutely fantastic and it's the same with the Borg as well because the whole concept of the Borg is
00:29:16
Speaker
they don't really have any subjective feelings. They're like the antithesis of the Federation. I know I kind of joked earlier with the Dominion being the anti-Federation, but the Borg practically are a mirror of what the Federation could be. They are just one hive mind. They just operate for the collective. They don't think about free will. They just
00:29:40
Speaker
I don't know about you, but the thought of having my individuality just ripped away from me and having to be conscious throughout that because even Picard and that episode where he gets captured by the Borg and the follow-up episode, that's interesting.
00:29:55
Speaker
great one. When he goes home and he just has such an emotional breakdown with his brother about how he wasn't able to do anything and that kind of gives him the courage to compose himself and get back into the books of Becoming Jean-Luc Picard. Nowadays, as you said, it's become so diluted because Picard, the TV show, used them so many times that it kind of became unbearable that, you know, by the time they brought them back and you're like, oh great, they're
00:30:49
Speaker
oh yay there's the bork in season 2, oh it's that bork, oh great.
00:30:55
Speaker
that I love that through the film like oh we've got 10 shots we've got 12 shots we got all we got one or two shots if we're lucky it makes us such great tension and they kind of beat them on fluke really with data and they're pretty much stuffed so yeah but I know what you mean like when you talk about star trek reflecting the time it's in yeah I get what you mean and people can argue that we're in a much more cynical time but for me we wouldn't be if
00:31:15
Speaker
media didn't keep telling us we were in such a cynical time. If we just decided to look at the positives a little bit more, instead of just forever looking at the negative, we might find a little bit like the messages is in this film. They've come through, you know, Cochrane in the 21st century, they've come through a third world war, a nuclear war, the band of survivors that are around during all these factions. They're agreeing not to fire on each other, which is what they think of the bargain, they don't realise the bargain at a faction.
00:31:41
Speaker
He's basically, you know, I'll get money out, I'll create this new spaceship. That's what his motivations are, you know, I'll be honest. And this Cochrane guy played brilliantly by James Cromwell, who's also in the Greenmark Grey film. But he's thinking that, whereas in the future, they've looked back on it and been like, he wanted to reach the stars. It wasn't his first contact moment where the Vulcans, it turns out, Spyder come down and see that humans have got warp drive and basically come down and wish us to live long and prosper.
00:32:02
Speaker
great scene but from their point of view it's all the view of like oh look we look back and you were like really positive and he's like well no that wasn't the reality and I just think if we just used a little bit of that optimism in some of the newer Star Trek I know how this is gonna sound but I don't care the best Star Trek that's going now is the Orville
00:32:18
Speaker
Seth Macphile's The Orville by an absolute country mile. If you want proper Star Trek, Star Trek Next Generation stuff, go watch The Orville. That's where you're going to get it. That got better and better and better. Well, you hear it is an interesting point because you were talking there about the whole progression of the series after this into this more cynical world to you. The fact is that it has changed
00:32:40
Speaker
probably for the worse or for more of a different audience let's say rather than the more optimism of the 90s and maybe by extension the 2000s before things started to go downhill but it feels as if
00:32:56
Speaker
This film encapsulates quite well what made Star Trek so iconic and I think it relates to two things, it relates to the setting first of all where they go back in time and I know people have said this, it ends up once the Borg get destroyed quote-unquote, they release this ship that can
00:33:17
Speaker
travel back in time and people put up the glasses and snort and say, why didn't they go back to the 1950s and do that? That's not the point. There wouldn't be a film if they didn't go back to this particular point. But the point they go back to is 10 years after the Third World War, the world is just in
00:33:36
Speaker
Shambles is just a wasteland and everything, there are different coalitions and factions fighting for control, and they land on April 4th, literally the day before they are going to be discovered by the Vulcans.
00:33:54
Speaker
And as you said, Cochrane just wants to be… he just wants very materialistic things. He sounds a bit like a pharynge saying, oh I just want women and money and having a sell-off, you know, I don't care. And you can understand why, because he lives in this hellscape.
00:34:09
Speaker
Oculus, but on the flip side you've got two stories going on. You've got the crew members trying to convince Cochrane to go ahead with the flight of the Phoenix, but on the other side you've also got Picard struggling with this and their turmoil with him wanting revenge and there's the obvious yet very fantastic comparison that they make in the film.
00:34:32
Speaker
where Lillie references Moby Dick, and that of course is the whole story of a captain that gets so jaded about this white whale that maimed him that he hunts it for all his life, and the household life is just consumed with this anger. And it's the same with this, and as I said before, I feel as if nowadays the whole idea of Wolf 359 and people being like, oh, I'd be hurt by the Borg, it's like, oh, grow up, there's worse things out there.
00:34:58
Speaker
It's like I'm wondering. The fact is you've got Picard wrestling with that and you even see him go to a very dark place. Even times where he is actively enjoying killing people, he doesn't even flinch when he rips out the heart or the data or memory cord or whatever it is. He rifles them full of holo bullets because he disengages the safety protocol.
00:35:21
Speaker
You know, he's not minding his caboose dicks there, is he? So he pulls out his tummy gun and rifles down the bog. And then the crew basically sent him, look, they're losing every single deck. They've lost over half the crew to the bog. And it's like, look, we need to retreat. He has that awesome scene with Worf, where he's like, I think you're being a coward. And obviously Worf being a Klingon, I mean, to call, you know, it's death before dishonor. To be called a coward, you know, that is absolutely disgraceful. It's worse than a disgrace. So he is like, if you were any other man, I would kill you.
00:35:49
Speaker
stand or whatever it is and then you get Picard but they're all so ingrained in following his decisions because they're usually the right ones that they continue to do that but you get Lily who ends up up there because she passes out because of the radiation sickness. She's in the 21st century, she's Cochran's. Well they insinuate towards the end that they're going to get together but she's great and she's basically reminding that look Jean-Luc blow up the damn ship you know blow up and he's like no and he screams no and he smashes the model
00:36:12
Speaker
that you see through the series with the mother ships behind with all the different enterprises and different ships and he gives the awesome speech and I will not sacrifice the enterprise. We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back.
00:36:27
Speaker
again the line must be drawn here this far no further and i will make them pay for what they have done and she's like oh you broke your little ship see around here happened like you said she's referring to mobbie dick and you know the whole somebody's white whale but it's just absolutely fantastic and that's before you even get to the scenes between deer and the bog queen it's just fantastic stuff it really is it's top-notch trek like i don't think it gets much better to be honest
00:36:51
Speaker
And it's got a good sense of humor in there. Yeah, it's a little bit, it's not goofy. It doesn't quite get too goofy, but you know, there's certainly some stuff in there with Data, which is very, how long is it, Data? I'm fully functional, all that kind of stuff, but it's very tongue-in-cheek. It makes sense to what she's trying to do, because if you wanted to get Data to give up the code you need to kind of turn him, and how do you turn an android with no motion, well, flick his motion switch back on, give him skin. Yeah, and I like that stuff. I thought it was clever. It all makes sense. I like a story that makes sense, if that makes sense.
00:37:18
Speaker
No, absolutely. It tells the story in a relatively believable way within the universe itself. Again, there's bits and pieces that you could pick apart and be like, well, why did the board go to this part of human history? Why did they do this? Why have they got a time machine? Blah, blah, blah, blah. But in terms of what we've got here, in terms of the story itself, it is just done in such a good way that doesn't necessarily, as we said, compromise what made Star Trek Star Trek
00:37:48
Speaker
and when Picard, this is the annoying thing because when Picard and later films and then later series and then overall later series that aren't related to Picard, when they have an action scene, human life just seems very
00:38:03
Speaker
disposable, almost to the point that it feels very much like the Warhammer 40K universe at times, especially in Into Darkness. I always remember that, there's a scene where they blow a hole in the side of the ship and these people are getting sucked out completely. And you know, these poor people, even in the original TNG series,
00:38:23
Speaker
There were always very remorseful. There's an episode, ironically enough, called Lord Ex, where a Bajoran crewmate is asked to do an undercover mission and, spoilers, skip five seconds ahead if you don't want to find out what happened, but she gets killed and Picard has to give a full speech saying so-and-so got killed while on active duty. She was a fantastic member of the crew, whereas when it comes to Nemesis and everything like
00:38:49
Speaker
Woohoo, human life! What's the cost of that? They just have all these over the top action scenes and they don't really give you time to breathe or mourn over
Character Arcs and Subplots in 'First Contact'
00:38:58
Speaker
them. And you do have scenes like that in this where Picard initially is just willing to sacrifice his crew to stop them from invading the ship.
00:39:07
Speaker
as we said but then at the same time it does link back really well because you get that scene in the holodeck where he rips the as we said the data code out and he says very coldly yes that was instant lunch and he just he doesn't blink when he does it he just sees a combarge and then he's just like yeah sure and there's another bit I'm a bit annoyed at where he
00:39:29
Speaker
kill someone who's been assimilated or just mid-assimilation and I was like well Picard if you don't mind me saying you were rescued and de-borgified. Yeah but I mean I think it's a very damaged Picard. I know people who don't like Picard in the films at all because he goes from being somebody who would the complete antithesis of Captain James D Kirk and that he wouldn't rip his shirt off and start to
00:39:52
Speaker
fight. He would think he's going to have a situation. He was a thinking man's captain. Whereas in the films he gets very much, especially as it goes on, it becomes more action orientated. I think he's a very damaged captain. He's clearly suffering. Although part of me is thinking, well, why? Why has it taken him six years to all of a sudden start having this? But it's not, you know, not uncommon.
00:40:10
Speaker
Maybe the factor bar go around and he can hear them as triggered some kind of post-traumatic stress. This sort of, because he is very much a captain. He's a person struggling with that. You can see it throughout. And yes, he's very cold at times. I mean, I would say I think it's kind of more of a mercy killing. Not that I'm advocating such, but it's just a film.
00:40:26
Speaker
because he knows that the guy's going to suffer. And if there's one point where he says the crew, you'll probably meet a similar crew members. Trust me, just shoot, you'll be doing them a favor. And it kind of feels like sometimes he feels like he'd rather have died, but I did think, well, they saved you. So, but yeah, I mean, there's a lot of, there's a lot of death in this one, but I just surfed to underline how like ruthless the bar guy, you can't talk about this one, John Luke. And it's, I mean, not that he's in a fit state, different, most of it, but I do know that conflicts cause some people feel like he goes,
00:40:52
Speaker
Not myself, I can see why people would argue it. That I think he goes from being a thinking man's captain to being essentially a kind of a warmonger or somebody who would much rather run towards a battle than run away from it. Well, he literally does in this. He disobeys orders. And to be fair, he gives one of the best lines of the film with data where he's like, sir, I think I speak for all of us here when I say, to hell with our orders. It's like, yeah, go on.
00:41:13
Speaker
Funnily enough, if anything, I actually feel like out of the whole crew, Riker, maybe it's because he was on, you know, Jonathan Frake was on directorial duties, but he feels not massively involved in this one. Maybe that was on purpose. And of course, it is so focused on Picard that it does make sense. But what did you think? Did you feel like he, I mean, it just felt like a few of them, the ones that kind of were beamed down. I mean, Beverly Crusher does virtually nothing. You've got a Jod of the Fod, just virtually nothing. You get the great scene with Deanna Trey, where she's absolutely, she's pissed.
00:41:41
Speaker
that's a good scene with him and Jonathan Frakes and James Cromwell and so that you feel like a few of them are kind of sidelined a little bit because this is Picard's baby but you know if that's what needs to happen for such a good film then I'll accept it you know I'm sure they get their time to shine elsewhere I don't know how you feel about that. Well here's an interesting trivia fact I don't know if you know
00:42:01
Speaker
Apparently in the earlier drafts of this film, the roles of Picard and Riker were supposed to be swapped. So Riker was supposed to be the one fighting the Borg on the Enterprise and Picard was supposed to be helping Cochrane try to get the Phoenix up in the air. That makes more sense, that makes more sense. It does, doesn't it? But do you think that would have worked the same?
00:42:25
Speaker
No, because you're about to have taken out all the stuff up at Cosplay, so he's never been assimilated. But I do think Picard would have cut his losses far earlier. I mean, they're on that ship till they try to self-destruct it right at the 11th hour. I mean, the crew's virtually wiped out, apart from the main deck. And there's virtually nobody left when they decide, right, what he'd call a loss. I think Riker would have done it much earlier. I think he'd have evacuated much earlier. But it makes more sense, but it certainly wouldn't have made for a good film, to be honest.
00:42:51
Speaker
I think if it was an episode, then maybe it would have, but I totally see what you mean thematically. It does make more sense for Picard to become very obsessive with the ship. I totally agree with you, going back to what you were asking there about whether or not I think they don't really have anything to do. You're right, once
00:43:12
Speaker
Russia gets out of the sick bay and then Lolly kind of branches off. That's really all she does in the film. Troi and Riker, they're just kind of there. It sounds weird but it feels almost as if nothing against Jonathan Freaks, I think he's a fantastic actor and Riker is one of my favourite characters but I feel as if it's like in this film he's the kind of person that he's won a ticket to be on a Star Trek film, if you know what I mean. So he's a bit part in the background in this.
00:43:41
Speaker
You're obviously not at the beginning, at the beginning he is relatively instrumental, but once he's down there, yeah, him and Jordy are really more focused on getting Cochrane up in the sky. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting one. I do think, I mean, it might be wrong, there was no deleted scenes on there, there was only like a teaser trailer and a theatrical trailer, which was great, by the way. We've lost the ability to do good trailers as well.
00:44:03
Speaker
in the last few years, but there was no special features outside, no deleted scenes or anything, at least in the DVD that I've got. I don't know in that respect, but yeah, I don't know if in that respect, whether there were deleted scenes and they kind of siphoned down and took bits out of that Earth sequence. But I would argue that Jonathan Rex probably keeps his character out of it as much as he can so that he is able to direct it. I mean, it works the story. I think it works that you've got those two sorting things out. And yeah, I did think that, but the bark had taken over the ship and I'm thinking, why don't you kind of like blow up that?
00:44:32
Speaker
rocket but the spaceship but I suppose yeah they kind of do their best to. Yeah I see your point because if it is directing the film you don't want to be too involved otherwise it becomes the Riker Show feat Picard. The thing that is great about this film is just as we were talking about before is how thematically great this film is. Like as we said we've got the Borg storyline between Picard and
00:44:58
Speaker
You've got the subplot with Data and the Borg as well which is interesting if not just a bit strange in a way. I know why they got Data out of the way because I think the film would have been over a lot sooner if Data was beside Picard rather than in the hands of the Borg Queen and Alice Craig does a fantastic job as the Queen in this film. That shot of it coming down to connect with her body took ILM Industrial Light Magic five months to do and it still holds up
00:45:27
Speaker
A lot of the stuff I meant to say this earlier, a lot of the EFX hold up. Yes, there's a few bits here and there where it shows that it's got a best part of 30 years old, but it's going to. Like CGI is always going to go that way, but they used a hell of a lot of model work in this film from what I was reading. That whole section where the navigational deflector scene, where they go on like the dish underneath and they have to stop the bar because the bar they're trying to shoot down. And if that happens, it's all over. And I just, I love that scene. It was just great. The tension of attacking the bar
00:45:54
Speaker
And I like the fact that the bork won't engage you until you become a threat. So you can essentially walk through them as long as you don't threaten them. Yeah, I thought that made for like such a fantastically creepy scene, especially when Picard's trying to lead Lily through them and she's screaming and he's just like, look, kind of keep going. Because usually it like, felt almost like a zombie film where you camouflage for them a little like World War Z a little bit. So yeah, I liked that. That was, that was good. Yeah, the surprising thing is for a lot of films in the late 90s that were made, especially sci-fi ones,
00:46:24
Speaker
You don't really expect them to hold up as well, effects-wise, but the effects in this are absolutely fantastic. Even today, as you said, you've got that horror film vibe, you've got the dark claustrophobic corridors. The scene especially I love is when the security team are walking through the corridor and then they manage to break through to one of the doors because they're getting chased. And then all you see is the eyepiece lights just shining through. Oh, yeah, that would create that, yeah.
00:46:52
Speaker
Yeah, it builds tension so well. And I know I talked about the jump scare quote-unquote jump scare, you know, it was a minor jump scare at the very beginning but, you know, there's no real cheap scares. It's more the horror of being assimilated by the Borg and it brings back
00:47:11
Speaker
the horror and the fear. If you're watching Star Trek nowadays like you know they're not so scary they just fly around to the Rubik's Cube, watch this film and you'll see how scary they're really supposed to be. And the film as well was I mean it's set in the mid 21st century but it was originally it was going to be set in the European Renaissance which would kind of fit slightly with the way the series have gone before showing Picard as like a captain on a ship type thing in the holiday but actually I mean that would have made for an interesting film. I don't think it would have worked as well and I can imagine budget wise it would have been an absolute disaster.
00:47:41
Speaker
to try but I think it was definitely interesting. I mean and the Bargo redesigned as well because they were never happy with how they looked in the series because you know budget concerns but obviously with the film you get a lot more you have a lot more money. The ship I mean I was surprised because I'd forgotten the Enterprise E. It's a lot slender than the Enterprise D so it looked a bit differently and yeah it's just it all seems to come together really well and it's no wonder this is kind of pretty sure it's rated one of the best in the series in terms of the films definitely.
00:48:06
Speaker
out of the TOS era and TMG and I mean even extending to the later films, would you say that this is probably one of if not the best Star Trek films that they've put out? Yeah I think so, quite comfortable, I'd argue that. I've always had a bit of a soft spot for generations which I know it's not everybody's cup of tea, but yeah I think this is definitely the best next generation film they did by an absolute mile. It just, it's
00:48:31
Speaker
I'm a Trekkie so I hope people know what I mean by this next bit but it's a good film in its own right. Like I feel like you could have walked in to this in 1996 never seen Star Trek before and got what was going on because it lays it out for you. It doesn't spoon feed you but it's Picate six years ago I was I was I was simulated blah blah blah and it brings everybody in and yeah you might have been a bit confused as to kind of Riker and a few of them that were sidelined a little but I'll take it.
00:48:56
Speaker
that I decided that it's like, yeah, this is great. They should have had a great time. I do think it's one of the best ones and it has made me the minute I finished watching it. I was like, where's my insurrections DVD? Where's the other one? I was dying to start another one. So yeah, I forget how much I enjoy these. And I like the little moments where Star Trek never forgets that it's about
00:49:14
Speaker
people and relationships and not just our relationships with each other but our relations across like the world there were different countries and stuff and what it means to be human and what does it mean to be human and so you have data in the bit where Picard's talking about seeing the rocket in the Smithsonian and never been able to touch it and he stands there and he touches the metal and obviously data holds it and starts computing all these deflections and inflections and these faults in the metal and Picard says you know it's a very human emotion to touch something and it makes it more real to you and I love
00:49:43
Speaker
that star trek never forgot those little moments it never because it was always at the base of it the writing was making it sound like some kind of utopia it weren't all fantastic but it never forgot even in like the worst series or the worst films they always had moments where they reminded you we know what we're doing with those moments where you thought yeah
00:49:59
Speaker
good writing, good scenes, good characterisation, even in like the films that didn't really land Nemesis. There's always moments where it shows that glimmer of why it's so special and why it's gone on for as long as it has in all these different iterations and I think that's something not to bring it down because I'm not but for me that is why the later series you know from 2000, whenever Discovery started, they're never connected with me in that way because you know I'll give Picard season three a go but
00:50:25
Speaker
just never connected with me in that way because the writing quality for me just just it just isn't there i don't understand that we're like 30 years on almost from this film and we've got nothing anywhere near it so it just pains me a little but you know overall but yeah i look i absolutely love this one because i mean the fact
00:50:40
Speaker
the TNG came out relatively soon after the original series and their films and you know it was more the late 80s and on to the 90s that Picard and his band of men as it were took to the Enterprise D and decided to do their adventures but it feels as if the more and more the series goes on the more it starts to lose track of what made Star Trek Star Trek
00:51:08
Speaker
you've got a million and one oh cyberpunk dystopian sort of shows or films and I mean I've seen my fair share of good ones, bad ones, I've seen a lot of international ones recently where it's just no one worked together, everything's blown up. I feel as if nowadays and especially with this film, I feel as if they did have that very optimistic like
00:51:31
Speaker
oh look at us we all work together and blah blah blah and it was just squeaky clean then I can understand why people nowadays don't like that kind of point review. I think we're not getting given that option if we were given that option all we get all the time is told how bad everything is how disenfranchised we all are from each other and how separated and how there's all this problem and that no if you put a series up like this it was much more hopeful and was much more you watch the people flock to it
00:51:58
Speaker
I mean, I know it's really out there, but you look at the reception to a film like Top Gun Maverick, 40 years on, a film in the 80s that was all right, wasn't great. Maverick comes along and blows it out of the water because it's an unashamedly positive flag waving action film that just goes, we know what you want and we're going to give it to you.
00:52:15
Speaker
I think if a series did what Star Trek does, it's like The Orville. I think The Orville is very similar to this. It tries to give you that more positive look. Yes, there's a bit of comedy sprinkling there because it's 7,000, but that, if people haven't seen The Orville, god, just go treat yourself. Stick with it in the first series because it was trying to find its feet in terms of drama and comedy, but after that, it really finds its feet and it's exactly what this is.
00:52:34
Speaker
And it's made by a lot of the same people that made Star Trek Next Generation. Some of the same producers, some of the same composers, designers, the lot. He basically just went out there and was like, can we find the people who made this? I want to do my own version. And I think if people were given that option of having something that was much more positive and much more like, look, are we in rough times? Yeah, but we've always had rough times. And you get through this and tell you what, just don't mention what we're going through now. Give us a film where it's just, look, we'll get through this. It's a journey to the stars, Star Trek's back.
00:53:01
Speaker
You're gonna love it. We don't want to be told about all the problems in 2023. I'm not interested because I think that's the problem a lot of films make and a lot of series make. Oh, we need to reflect now. No, you don't. You might be a fantasy show set in space. Just give me what I want. Give me good writing and I will eat it up with a spoon. And then I'll go out and buy all the dolls and all the franchisees that I'll go for it. But give me like negativity and darkness and death.
00:53:24
Speaker
without any kind of levity. You can't watch that for very long.
Hopeful Narratives in Sci-Fi
00:53:28
Speaker
I think if we were given the opportunity for some kind of a series that was like, look, on the positive side, I think people are dating up. But I think if it was given a chance to find its audience, we absolutely wouldn't. I mean, the Star Trek's around now, they're not exactly killing it.
00:53:39
Speaker
not exactly blowing up. Well speaking of fantasy and arguably one of the best trilogies of all time in terms of thalem, it actually reminds me of a particular scene from Lord of the Rings, in particular the Two Towers, where Frodo has pretty much a bit of a mental breakdown towards the end of the thalem. He is just completely despondent, he's nearly killed his best friend, you know, the world is burning both literally and metaphorically around them and
00:54:09
Speaker
he basically says, what are we fighting for here? What are we doing here? You know, what is the point of going on? And Sam has this absolutely beautiful speech where he essentially says, and this is how it's kind of summarised towards the end, he says, there's still good left in the world, Mr Frodo, and it's worth fighting for
00:54:31
Speaker
And that to me, first of all, I feel as if that is just the perfect quote because, you know, in this day and age, even with all the horrible stuff going on, there are good elements that we still have that people can't take away from us. And, you know, you have to hold on to that and remember. But in terms of Star Trek, that was something that they used to do so, so well. They used to tell you that,
00:54:54
Speaker
Yeah, even in Deep Space 9, you had this galactic war which, don't get me wrong, there was horribleness in it, there was just utter atrocities going on, but at the same time, what they were fighting for was the Federation for the rights of the individual, for people to have a future, to have those good times to remember back fondly, and especially going back to First Contact,
00:55:18
Speaker
that is exactly what they do here. It's the fact that initially Picard is so focused on getting his own way. He wants to kill the Borg, he wants to destroy them, and then any other film, any other sci-fi series, he would just do that. All the crew would be dead, but he would be the, I don't know, Van Damme or Stephen Seagal kind of character. He would just kill the Borg Queen and everyone would be dead, but he would be alive and that's a happy ending in these kinds of films.
00:55:47
Speaker
the fact he manages to reign himself in and the fact he says I shouldn't have put myself first like that to the extent that later on he apologises to war for as you were talking about earlier what he said and everything and he finally realises about the bigger picture there about the future of humanity and I just I love the finale for this problem. Whether people nowadays find it cheesy or not I don't care I just think it's
00:56:14
Speaker
beautiful. The fact that they meet the Vulcans, that he has no idea how to greet them and he's like oh so he just shakes his hand and everything and it's just like that one moment that you know from that moment that an age of peace and I was about to say prosperity but not really because I get rid of currency but you know an era of just peace and a golden age of space travel is going to come from this one moment and it's just beautiful to watch.
00:56:42
Speaker
your hopes or it was such a I was surprised how emotional it was not like I wasn't crying anything but I was surprised how it is such like a heartfelt hopeful message and that was what Star Trek was always meant to be and I think going back to what you were saying earlier we were talking about how the series has gone on it's got further and further away from what Star Trek was meant to be I think was because Gene Roddenberry kept you know a very strong hand on the tiller in terms of what he felt Star Trek should represent what it shouldn't represent obviously once he passed his way
00:57:07
Speaker
he passed away in I think the early 90s maybe 93 something like that I think that he's the last film he sees to generations so it might not even have been that far bless him but he passes away and then it's kind of like right well where do we go now and that's when you start to get people who bring in their own ideas on what Star Trek should be and Star Trek was you know always meant to represent the future and you know like Picard says we've got away from currency we've moved away from like what you don't get paid and he argues in this that the ship's more like my home and because you know Lily says to him how long time to be away from home
00:57:36
Speaker
And he's like, well, actually, the ship is my home and the crew is my family. And he doesn't say that, but you see it in the series and stuff. And it's, it's like such an interesting way of looking at it because for a lot of people now, jobs are just something you go to. And if you said to a lot of people, would you do this job when you get paid? No, you know, very few of us are in jobs that we love. I mean, it's fantastic when you get that.
00:57:52
Speaker
I just, I love when films do this and I think that again, that's what made Star Trek stand head and shoulders above other things, including I could be Star Wars and Mars, but I know the different, very different beasts. But just in terms of like, oh no, the future is not all war and the dark side and the light. The future is, yes, there's a few, you know, there's Federation space and there's another.
00:58:09
Speaker
stuff like that and there are Klingons or there are Romulans or whatever that we have peace treaties with and sometimes it doesn't quite go that way but we're all different species and we're all trying to work it out but humanity's really got shit together and I'm like I like that is it realistic who knows but if you don't strive for something if you're just forever telling yourself
00:58:26
Speaker
and forever telling everybody around you that the world's such a horrible, prejudiced, dark place, then can it ever become something different? Because if you're forever telling yourself you're useless, then are you ever going to rise to something that's got a bit deeper?
00:58:41
Speaker
know what I mean? I like the fact the film's like, actually, you know what, if you get it together, work together, and look what you can do, we see that, I mean, it's a tough sell of an example, but you see that in countries where they go into a natural disaster, or a war, where everybody has to, and a war is a horrible thing in the hospital, disaster where everybody has to band together, because if they don't, it's horrendous for everybody, where you have to put aside those individual wants and desires, and the idea that we could do that
00:59:06
Speaker
and actually push off it's like great and I'm not talking about communism you know I'm talking about that because that's not what the film is trying to argue here I don't want to get missing straight and I'm not getting political I'm just saying but yeah no it's what I've always loved about Star Trek it makes you think I've always loved films and TV shows that make you think make you question I can't remember who it was but it'll be in my shining episode if anybody wants to go check that out I'm not plugging it I'm plugging it for a reason so that's all I promise yeah in that episode there's a quote and I watched all the behind the scenes a whole
00:59:32
Speaker
fascinating behind the scenes stuff and i watched it and wanted the directors and i can't remember it wasn't the director of the shine it wasn't cubic with somebody else and he perfectly summed up how i feel about films and it was filmed like 30 years ago or 20 odd years ago and he basically says films are not meant to reflect now they can if they want to be a period piece but they are meant to be a fantasy they're meant to
00:59:51
Speaker
give you different things to think about or maybe reflect society back at you and have you think about it, but they're never meant to tell you where to stand. They're meant to tell you, right, this, this is what happens. You know, it's like the earlier Star Trek series stuff. There's the episode that had one of the ones that I really enjoy and it does have Wesley Crusher in it. So stick with me while I explain what I mean. In that he goes to a planet and he like runs on a grass to get a ball back or something. And he's broken one of their rails and he's condemned to death.
01:00:16
Speaker
but it's their rules but Picard's like well hang on he didn't know he didn't mean to and it's that kind of thing of it never used to tell you where to sit it used to say well you can see where these guys are coming from you can see where these guys are coming from and we're gonna try and obviously put it down the middle somewhere but you decide who's right and who's wrong here I like that I would have
01:00:33
Speaker
The thing about the series itself is it always proposed these thought provoking questions.
Moral Dilemmas in Star Trek
01:00:40
Speaker
Don't get me wrong, not all of them landed like you had the weird goo monster episode, you had the one with the masks, you know you had some that you were just like what the hell was this but
01:00:50
Speaker
you know, you have the other ones that, as you said, they provoke very interesting questions, like especially with the whole idea of the Prime Directive and everything. Is it right to involve yourself when you have the power, or is it right to stand back and let it happen, whether it's war or natural disaster? It was just such a thought-provoking show, and that definitely is retained in first contact, I would say, because it's one of these films towards the end of
01:01:20
Speaker
TNG's run as a film series which it is a shame that Insurrection and Later Nemesis would be the last films because in my opinion they weren't really that strong. They had the good moments but they weren't as strong as this because at the end of the day this is the one that still retained those values even though there are
01:01:42
Speaker
couple of things. Because earlier on I put out a tweet asking people to give us their opinions. Someone actually got back. It was the Movie for Days podcast who had said, looking purely at the TNG movies in relation to First Contact, it's either the first or second best to them. Lots of charm
01:02:02
Speaker
draw dropping moments and great guest actors is very well directed and lots of fun. It doesn't hold up to the tightest of scrutiny but none of them really do. And I think that is a very interesting point there that yeah you can pick apart the film you can say well isn't there a dominion war going on at this point or what's going on here what's going the
01:02:24
Speaker
there. But at the end of the day, if you're looking for a film with a relatively good message here about fighting for a better future as opposed to fighting for yourself, you know, for very selfish reasons and hurting or sacrificing people along the way, then this is a great film that displays relatively the best of Star Trek. As I said, there's obviously the one or two moments but
01:02:47
Speaker
Beyond that, beyond in terms of the bigger picture, I think personally it does an absolutely fantastic job. And it poses questions that sometimes it doesn't answer, or partly answers, the whole argument about when does making a stand against an enemy become a pursuit of revenge?
01:03:04
Speaker
And can you ever truly rise above revenge? They pose that as well, like all you've got Lily says to Picard, what the 24th century, you've gone above war, you've gone above revenge, you've gone above all this. I saw your face when you shot them both, you were almost enjoying it. And it pauses that question. Never tells you who's right, who's wrong, because it doesn't need to. There was a time in the world where you didn't have to, it wasn't some black and white.
01:03:25
Speaker
But she basically says to him, I saw your face, I was there. I saw what you did. And it's basically the 21st century. They say they're all heighty-tighty and they've risen above all this stuff. But are they really? I mean, it's not been really, it's not been cynical about it, but it is just posing that question of, is it as rosy as they say? I mean, I would like to think it is, but nothing's ever perfect. It's fascinating. This is kind of like a really weird example to compare it to, but have you ever heard of the Total War series of games?
01:03:50
Speaker
Yes, yes I have. I remember playing that religiously. I'd rather go enough because it's hitting medieval times but I remember playing it religiously when I was younger and you know it was great for learning maps and things but in that game I would always get quite frustrated because there was a lot of nations. Of course the aim of the game is you take a country in either Europe or North Africa or the Middle East and you basically have to fight for your territory.
01:04:18
Speaker
that the one that had, didn't they have a Napoleon one and a British Empire one or an Empire one? That's the one. I remember getting so frustrated at moments. There was one where I was playing the Holy Roman Empire, or as it's known today of course, Germany, where I had taken Sardinia, which is of course the tiny wee island. Well, it's bigger than Corsica, but let's not get into that. But yeah, it was just south of France slash Germany. And I remember I took it
01:04:46
Speaker
I was happy with myself and I left my Emperor there. Bad decision because two seconds later the Milan faction, now no one is Italy, ended up killing him. So I decided in a very rational way to wipe Italy off the map because I was so angry that they killed my Holy Roman Empire.
01:05:03
Speaker
and of course the thing about that game is if you're playing as a certain faction like especially a Christian faction of the time and you attack another Christian faction then the Pope will excommunicate you or he'll warn you off and if you keep doing that he'll give you into trouble and the thing about it was if you think about a game like that where obviously it's a game, obviously this is a film so there's no real world consequences but in terms of
01:05:28
Speaker
me thinking, oh well, I'm just gonna wipe this nation off the mark, to which case these other nations would then gag up on me and it was a very short run. But at the same time, it does kind of remind me of the way that Picard was just so
01:05:43
Speaker
fixated on, as we say, getting his revenge and other things, sacrificing his pieces as it were. Or was it less of a revenge for him and more of a, I have been on the receiving end directly of this collective and I know the horror they will inflict upon Earth and God knows how many. And she says the bug in that bit where she's like, today, well, we've met many, we've met many species.
01:06:05
Speaker
we've met many we've assimilated a lot you know this is not their first rodeo like they've been doing this again and again and again same with the aliens and independence day you get the feeling this is not the first time they've done this the consumer plan and move on you get that feeling that it's like this isn't the first time they'll listen maybe he is saying this fast we need to take a stand here because if we don't
01:06:26
Speaker
but I think he goes about it the wrong way but I think his sentiments are initially right that at a certain point you have to say right it doesn't make any sense but we have to push through this it reminds me of certain things that have happened in history where everything goes against the country and it's like no we need to make a stand here
01:06:41
Speaker
we need to make a stand otherwise everything that we stand for or have ever stood for all the right and wrong will go you've seen that in country after country and i think there's a point where you have to take that standard whether you live or die by that choice if you've got to try because otherwise what you stand for it goes you don't know whether he's like see why i like these films
01:07:00
Speaker
this is like why he's wondering like oh but i do agree he is ptsd and all that he's really struggling and i think he goes a bit too far but i think his sentiments are correct but again it doesn't tell you he never walks up to her and says oh yeah thank you like you were right and then the same with wharf he says oh i apologize for some of the things i said
01:07:17
Speaker
So he never truly, there's never that true kind of like, oh, he was right, they were wrong type thing. It still leaves, it's nuance. I love a bit of nuance. And we've lost that in films and TVs. We've lost it. Not all of them, but the majority of them, we've lost that nuance of, we're not going to spoon for you. You're not thick. We're not going to spoon for you. Don't tell you what's right and what's wrong. We're going to let you work out.
01:07:35
Speaker
We're gonna not even let you work out, we're just gonna give you a fantasy film one. We're gonna give you a film or a series and show you what it is and these are the characters and they're not all good and they're not all bad. The bad ones aren't all bad and the good ones aren't all good but that's life baby and let's kick on with it. You, you enjoy it. We're gonna make a great series. No, you do make a good point though there. It is very nuanced as you said. It is interesting to see that because I suppose you could argue as well that yes seeing that always doing that for the Federation but then you're kind of like
01:08:03
Speaker
well in the way he is but because his opinions are so subjective towards this issue because he has been kidnapped and as you said it's the idea that he knows what they're going to do to them but he's kind of doing it in a very counterproductive way that he's saying oh yeah just throw as many men as you can at them or men and women at them and it'll be fine it'll be fine and you know obviously it's not and his irrational side is coming out
01:08:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's that idea of knowing when to quit, essentially. And eventually, of course, it's these reasons. But before that point, you kind of think, is he going to see that before it's too late and everything? And, you know, you've got the very cheesy yet iconic lines.
01:08:46
Speaker
the film. You've got the assimilate this by Worf, which is so cheesy, but it's so good. The only one I don't like I have to say, and I feel as if it's so forced is when they're talking to Cochrane and they're explaining how they're from the future and he goes, yeah, what is this, some kind of Star Trek? And I'm like, oh, even Star Wars didn't do that. Even Star Wars didn't go, what is a sum?
01:09:10
Speaker
Star Wars or something? I think Star Wars needs to take a longer look at itself before it starts throwing stones at any other franchises. That's it. You know, I don't want to say you jumped the Millennium Falcon, but you did. No, I'm joking. But no, yeah, that was the one line where I was like, oh, God. It reminded me of that senior family guy where he's like, ah, he said it. He said the title of the movie. I'm a family guy. That's what it reminded me of. And I was like, oh.
01:09:32
Speaker
Why? Because it didn't make sense for him to say it. If he'd have said, oh, you want some kind of trick? I'd have been, oh, OK, yeah, I get that, because they're in the mountains and that's what that makes sense. But to be like, what? What is this, some kind of star trek? It's, oh, no, I agree with you. The minute you said that, I was like, I know what he's going to say. Because, I mean, even Q, I think it's the finale, the first part of the finale of TNG, where he says something about them trekking amongst the stars. And although that's obviously what the writers were getting at there, it makes more sense.
01:09:59
Speaker
for someone to see trekking amongst the stars, man. This is some kind of Star Trek. First contact. TM. What is this, some kind of Paramount Plus release? It's like, what the hell, Cochran? His character was great. I did like that. I did like his character. I liked Lily. I thought she was great. And it was just all around, just a cracking film radio. Because I've got to be honest, when I got in earlier, I was like,
01:10:18
Speaker
and I could so go to sleep. But I thought, no, no, come on, watch first, can't I give you all right? And I never wanted to, I wanted to turn it off and go to sleep. And that's it in some words, I am shattered. It's just great, I just, I love it. I feel a bit sorry for people who grow up now and kind of, if they think that Star Trek is just what the new series are, I'm like, oh, you need to go back. You need to go back, watch the good stuff. Like, watch the good stuff. Watch the series that invented the mobile phone years before it even turned up. It's a communicator, that's what it is. Like, we know what, you know. And yeah, I would just reiterate that
01:10:48
Speaker
If you haven't seen this album yet and you're looking for just such a good bit of Star Trek content definitely go see First Contact. It's available I think at the moment or as of recording this episode. If you've got a Paramount Plus subscription then you can get it for free on Amazon Prime. Well I say free but you know what I mean. Free-ish.
01:11:09
Speaker
and Ferengi terms, yeah, three-ish. Yeah, I would wholeheartedly recommend this, and I would recommend this as well as a starting point as well if you want to get into the Star Trek films, because if I was going to choose a series for people to start off with, always TNG, always. I mean, my partner, her and I actually watched
01:11:30
Speaker
Star Trek Picard the third season, thankfully not the first two, but because the third season was coming on, the same friend who introduced me to the series would come round every Friday and we would all watch it together. She was really into the character, she was like, oh Worf is cool.
01:11:46
Speaker
you know she would recognise people. It actually led to a really cute moment when we watched this from them together and you're the scene where they're racing back and she's like oh look there's Picard there's Riker and then you see the Defiant and Worf pops up and she went oh my god it's Worf and I was so proud. I was just
01:12:04
Speaker
through.
Film Recommendations and Personal Enjoyment
01:12:05
Speaker
I would definitely, obviously the TNG series if you're looking to get into the series but if you're looking to get into the films I would 110% say First Contact is your first port of call. I mean Wrath of Khan as well, also a good shout but I feel as if it's the perfect blend of modern or maybe not blend but maybe more of a bridge between the old Star Trek
01:12:28
Speaker
and what was to follow. If there's any insurrection on Amos's hands or you know the Abrams songs then you know fair enough we can't tell you that oh you shouldn't enjoy that because if you enjoy them that is perfectly valid. If someone's opinion about a film affects yours how much do you really love it? Exactly. I know how bad Batman and Robin is does stop me loving it and I believe you may I know how bad it is but I love it all the way. Love to pieces you could shout at me tell me it's terrible it's not gonna affect me so don't worry about what other people think enjoy what you like.
01:12:56
Speaker
Yeah, I feel as if it is definitely the perfect bridge between what was to come later on where it got a bit too gory and dark and it lost its way versus the campiness of the earlier run, which don't get me wrong there is a charm to some of it, some of its age purely, but you know it was made in the 60s and 70s so you can kind of give it a pass in some regards, others you're just like nah this isn't old up.
01:13:20
Speaker
But yeah, if you haven't watched this film, absolutely go watch it. You cannot find a better Star Trek film. But on that
Podcast Promotions and Conclusion
01:13:28
Speaker
note, where can these lovely listeners at home find your content? Well, if you can wrench yourself away from listening to Satsu's amazing content because he is killing it right now. Oh, thank you. Genuinely killing me how successful he is right now. But I don't have a joke. No, it's well deserved. If you fancy a little bit of some film reviews of all different manners with loads of different guests, Review It Yourself is the place to go, essentially.
01:13:50
Speaker
So, it's hosted by me, Sean. I have guests all the time, including yours truly, Satu. Satu's on there. We've done some bake-off stuff. Go check that out if you want. So basically, it's no politics, no pandering, no point. You can find us on Twitter. It's at yourself review. We're also on Instagram. It's Review Yourself podcast 2021. Good pods, all these different places you can buy and does. I see us. It's just me, really.
01:14:12
Speaker
and yeah go on I'm sure you'll find something there that you like although having checked my 230 odd whatever it is episodes I haven't done a star trek yet I'm disgusted in myself I've done a star wars not to the star trek so yeah I'll have to rectify that quick honestly it's been a pleasure being on your podcast as well genuinely if you haven't listened to the review yourself podcast and especially our episodes together please do because they were a lot of fun to record and even more fun to listen back to so definitely go check them out I couldn't recommend them more
01:14:42
Speaker
Good starting point for anybody who's jumped over from Satsu's. Go listen to the ones of me and him, get a flavour of what my reviews are like and then jump into some of the others. I'd recommend jumping into some of the ones I do with Bill from Billry's Bad Reviews. Those tend to do quite well. Give them a go. As a starting point, I then work your way through all the others with my other fantastic guests.
01:14:57
Speaker
or crossover episodes or like the podcast version of Star Trek Generations. Hopefully not with me falling under some rocks, you know, but... Oh no, no, no, you're falling under a bridge, falling off a bridge and getting crushed by a bridge. Oh yeah. You could say to me, Satie, who am I to argue with the captain of the Enterprise? Nah.
01:15:17
Speaker
Yeah, and then he ends up coming back to life or something in the books. Oh, I don't know. I'll need to read that, but... Oh, he wrote that book, didn't he though? He tore up. It was somebody shouting it, I think. I think he did anyway. Of course he did. But then again, he did direct the fifth poem, I want to say. He didn't do the screenplay, but he did direct it, which, yeah, he can certainly tell.
01:15:36
Speaker
I know we never mentioned the directing, did we not? So I'm not just saying the direction is decent, Jonathan Rex is decent. Oh yeah, it's absolutely fantastic. But honestly, Sean, thank you so much again. And yeah, if you want to listen to more Chatsanami content, then you can catch us on the website, Plottepage.com.
01:15:53
Speaker
slash chat tsunami where not only can you get past episodes but you can also get a absolutely fantastic interview that Sean and I did together where we talked about the world of indie podcasting so definitely go check that one out as well either after this or after you're done with the collab ones over on his channel so please go check that out. I also want to thank our amazing
01:16:16
Speaker
Pandora Impatrons, Robotic Battles hoster and Sonya, thank you so much once again for supporting the channel. That's such a good mix of names there. See, you'll have to ask time. I remember that. I'm easily pleased. I'm easily pleased. And yeah, if you want to check out either exclusive content or episodes a week early, you can check it out on patreon.com forward slash chat tsunami. But until next time, stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly, live long and prosper.
01:17:11
Speaker
I've always wanted to say that.