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BAP Ep. 4 - The Advisor Leap Part 2: Why Advisory Training Programs So Often Fall Flat with Heather Esposito
48 Plays4 hours ago
Most firms train their people to be trusted advisors — and then wonder why nothing changes. Heather Esposito joins us as part of a five-part series to unpack the gap between learning in a room and doing in the real world. She dives into the neuroscience of habit, why your environment controls your behavior more than any training ever will, and how to finally measure ROI on development. If you're serious about leveling up your team, don't skip this one.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Goals
00:00:02
Speaker
Music
00:00:09
Speaker
Hi, this is Chris Mitchell with Becker at Accounting Podcast, and I'm here today again with Heather Esposito. She's a she's very smart. okay And I've said this in the past, and I'm telling you, you will pick up on this. If you've not tuned in to any of episodes in the past, you need to do so because it's really good information.
00:00:29
Speaker
Today, we're going to expand on our conversation as it relates to being a trusted advisor and the gain.
Heather's Background and Role
00:00:35
Speaker
that the firms are seeing. Some have really not realized, you know, any gain in advisor programs in the past.
00:00:44
Speaker
And I know we're going to spend some time kind of going through that, talking about formulas and what makes sense. So, but first of all, I got to welcome Heather. Heather, welcome. Please share
Advisor vs. Consultant: What's the Difference?
00:00:54
Speaker
more on your background because you are pretty accomplished. So don't allow me to skimp on all the good stuff.
00:01:00
Speaker
Thanks, Chris, for having me. Let's see. I think I'll focus today on i appreciate you saying I'm smart. I love to think of myself as a learner, though, and I love to learn.
00:01:11
Speaker
And so I'm constantly trying to think about things in new ways and get new information that helps inform my thinking. So I'm I a CPA. I have served in lots of learning and development roles, even inside of a public accounting firm.
00:01:31
Speaker
That's where I've honed my craft as a coach, as a master neuroplastician, which just means I try to bring knowledge about how the brain works, how it processes information,
00:01:44
Speaker
into how we approach learning, how we approach performance and things like that. I am a coach and I have that skill set. And I think that plays into a lot of how I think about this advisor movement that we're making right now in the profession.
Challenges in Traditional Advisory Training
00:02:02
Speaker
And I'm just glad to be here with you and looking forward to our conversation. Awesome. Awesome. you know in the past, we've talked about being a trusted advisor and we've talked about that as it represents itself within professional services.
00:02:18
Speaker
What's an advisor? I want to make sure this is broad enough so the audience understands the gain and just understanding this approach. Because I'm an advisor because I've worked in internal audit as ah as an executive for the third line of defense. I'm advising leadership the whole time.
00:02:35
Speaker
Tell me ah it's more than men just public account. i want the audience to know that it's more than just a professional services firm. So what are your thoughts on that? yeah So when I think about it being an advisor, I want to distinguish it a little bit from being a consultant.
00:02:51
Speaker
I think sometimes when we hire a consultant, that's when we really are saying, hey, you're the expert in this. ah I want you to tell us what to do.
00:03:03
Speaker
And a consultant comes in and does that. And sometimes we're happy with the results and sometimes we're not. When I think about the difference between that and being an advisor is I'm bringing a perspective.
00:03:17
Speaker
Now, my perspective may not be the whole perspective, but it's a perspective informed by my experience, by my expertise, And I may be representing one voice at a table. So even if you're not inside public accounting, but you're working inside any organization and listening to this podcast, you are invited to sit at tables and bring your expertise, your experience, your worldview.
00:03:44
Speaker
and that worldview could come from a lot of different places, from our backgrounds, our culture. You're there to represent a voice, not to be the loudest voice. But to be a piece of the puzzle, and then as we listen to all of these different perspectives that come out, we start to look at, okay, what can we take from each one of these? And how does this inform how we want to move forward? Not because any one person gave us the answer, but we brought lots of different perspectives to the table, and we're using that to develop and formulate a strategy or a plan or a solution.
00:04:23
Speaker
So I have a question about ah just advisory training. What is what has advisory training look like in the past? Because I know you have a unique approach and I won't give it all away. But what has it looked like in the past? I just want a level set on that.
00:04:37
Speaker
I think in the past it has looked at. just the skill that sits behind it. So whether that skill is asking better questions or whether that skill is, and some of it I don't always agree with, but I'm going to sandwich something difficult to hear in between two things that I feel like more brain friendly is the word I use for that, but it kind of allows us to be comfortable, then share the difficult thing and then say something positive. And whether that's in feedback or whether it's just in ah sharing a perspective that may not be picked up on well, that we learn those types of skills, the mechanics, the technical aspects of how to be an advisor
00:05:27
Speaker
But I don't think that's enough. I don't think that will get us where we need to go in the future because we've been doing that and we still have not seen people consistently demonstrating the behavior out in the wild, if you will. So when they get in the field, they may have been great in the training room. It may have been great in the workshop and been able to get 100 plus on executing whatever we were trying to do.
00:05:54
Speaker
But it doesn't translate into their real world behaviors. And that's where I think we've missed the mark is the things that we've been investing in have just been the technical logistical skills of of doing it, not addressing how we make sure it translates.
Creating Real-World Training Environments
00:06:13
Speaker
You know, on that note, we say that training has been done and it hasn't been completely successful. Successful in the sense of um truly, you know, not being so focused on a solution or being the expert, but being a good listener and being, you know, being patient in the moment is the way I look at it. I think some programs have fallen flat. So I've had training.
00:06:38
Speaker
I've been through it. I'm not seeing any success. What do you say to that? if there if it's If it's fallen flat already in the past, why would I go and do it differently? What's the game?
00:06:49
Speaker
Well, a couple of things. I think the environment in which we do the training, and you'll often hear me say that I don't even like to use the T word. I think it's it's a bad word, which might sound funny coming from somebody out of learning and development.
00:07:04
Speaker
But oftentimes we're trying to solve a systems problem with a training solution. And we wonder why things haven't changed. And so when I think about the environments in which we train in and then we send people back and if the environment doesn't mimic to some extent the real world, then that's part of the reason why we don't have the transfer of the behavior that we want.
00:07:31
Speaker
ah The second piece is the systems in which we operate. So the performance management systems, the way we're evaluated, the way we're promoted, the way we're comped, ah the the feedback systems that we operate in If those tell us to behave differently,
00:07:49
Speaker
You can train all day and people are going to do what the systems reward. So that's another piece. And we equate training with learning, which is why you'll often hear me not use the T word.
00:08:03
Speaker
I prefer the L word. How are we doing things that really promote learning? And the way the human brain learns is not the way we typically design learning.
00:08:17
Speaker
training and training environments. And example of that is, we want to be able to fix everything in, you know, one eight hour day, and how much can we cram in there? And then we say, well, they were trained on it, they should be able to do it now, or they should be doing it now, because we trained on it.
00:08:38
Speaker
Or, Oftentimes, as a learning and development professional, I'll hear, you know, here's what we're looking to do. Here's the outcome we want, and we want you to design a training solution.
00:08:51
Speaker
So I design something that will achieve the outcome. And then I get told, well, instead of a four hour workshop with lots of experiential learning, can you just do that in one hour in a webinar?
00:09:07
Speaker
And if the environment isn't conducive to the behaviors we want at the end, can I do it? Yes, I can do it. Will you get the outcome that you want? Likely not. And so I think those are three things I notice with why our current training solutions have fallen flat is they don't honor those three things. The way we learn, the systems that we have to operate in, and we're trying to to treat a developmental issue as just a training solution. And that's not the way learning happens.
00:09:45
Speaker
So I've got a situation here I've got and I'm to I'm going to use myself as an example because I think we've all been guilty of doing this. Go to training. Great session. Learn some stuff. Go back to my desk. I don't implement anything. I just keep moving the way that I move and delivering the way that I deliver. How do we hedge against that? How do you address someone like Chris who has got the information? You've taught me the information. I've been through the program, but I'm not executing. I'm not demonstrating it on a daily basis. I forget all about it.
00:10:17
Speaker
What do you do with that? So that's a perfect example of what learning really means. You're busy and you've got a to do list of things that you have to get out the door and they are the things you'll be rewarded for.
00:10:31
Speaker
How quickly did you meet that client deadline? How accurate was the work? And those are the things that typically are metrics, measure and reward. So you're going to do what gets rewarded.
00:10:44
Speaker
That's that's human nature. So whatever you've been told is important and whatever those systems reward, that will be your first priority. It takes a pause. to be able to say, I've learned some new things that I need to practice. The reason why you're learning them is because you didn't know them yet.
00:11:04
Speaker
And our brain wants to go back to that old default wiring because I don't have to think about that. That's the hardwired behavior that I can just immediately say, I can do that without thinking about it because I've done it so many times. I've had so many reps.
00:11:23
Speaker
It's what we call non-conscious, just like eating, walking, driving. All of those behaviors are non-conscious for us. We're not actively thinking about how to do that.
00:11:34
Speaker
If I'm trying to get you to implement a new behavior, there's going to need to be quite a bit of intention and conscious effort towards saying, my default is to want to do this.
00:11:47
Speaker
I'm trying to implement this new skill. I need to pause, take a beat. And try something new here. And in the world of busy, that just
Impact of Environment on Behavior
00:11:59
Speaker
doesn't happen. so we've got So we've got that piece working against us. We're busy and the default behaviors run really, really deep.
00:12:07
Speaker
And it's great that they do. i mean, that's part of how our brain was designed to work. Our brain processes, the research suggests around 13 million bits of information every second.
00:12:20
Speaker
If we had to think about 13 million things every second, we wouldn't even be able, we we'd forget to breathe. So there needs to be a lot of these things that run autonomously, that run non-consciously through patterns and wiring we've developed.
00:12:37
Speaker
That's how we keep ourselves sane and are able to do all the amazing things we're able to do as humans. The amount that we can consciously think about is actually pretty small.
00:12:49
Speaker
So we're fighting our own biology with just wanting to go back to these default behaviors. And then the second piece is there's a lot there's a lot of things that run underneath whether you demonstrate those behaviors.
00:13:05
Speaker
so ah So for example, if I teach you how to ask better questions, but when I get feedback, everybody says, Chris, you're so smart. You always have the answers. You're able to come up with those on a moment's notice.
00:13:21
Speaker
then I'm not rewarding the behavior of sitting in the pause, being present, asking another question, getting curious.
00:13:33
Speaker
sitting with something that may not have a clear answer because what you're told makes you valuable is how quickly you can come up with the right answer.
00:13:44
Speaker
And so why wouldn't you repeat that behavior? we We seek those serotonin and dopamine hits with, hey, I did a really good thing. Here's what I'm good at.
00:13:54
Speaker
I'm going to repeat that. So I get that again. And so like there's a whole mindset shift that's going to have to happen in what we reward and acknowledge if we really want to develop this skill set.
00:14:09
Speaker
You know, I'm thinking about the actual environment that I'm in. okay the environment. I mean, they control my behavior. They really do. OK, how important is Is it for us to get the environment right?
00:14:23
Speaker
Because we all know tone at the top. We all know expectations. We all know performance reviews. We all know goals that we're setting. How important is it that we get that environment right? And what does an ideal environment look like? I know maybe it's that's too broad, but you skinny it up however you need to.
00:14:39
Speaker
But what does that look like in order to aid in my development along these lines? How important is it? It's the most important thing. The environment will dictate the behavior we get. And we've seen that. We can all think back to examples of you take someone and we get I think we get to see it sometimes a little bit more in public accounting because of the way we rotate from job to job with different job managers.
00:15:09
Speaker
And we've all seen The colleague who underneath one manager just doesn't speak up, doesn't try anything new, doesn't take any risks, it doesn't doesn't ask questions.
00:15:24
Speaker
And they're like, oh, they're so quiet. You know, like they're making a lot of mistakes, but they need to ask more questions. I don't know why they're asking not asking more questions. And then they work on another job with a manager who's much more developmentally oriented, creates more psychological safety to be able to ask questions, spend some time, invest in the person.
00:15:50
Speaker
And they report a completely different experience. They're saying, no, this person was asking lots of questions. And I saw them like really trying new things. They were very engaged with the team.
00:16:03
Speaker
Like it wasn't nothing changed in the person except for the environment in which they were operating. And was it safe to do some of these things that could feel pretty risky?
00:16:15
Speaker
Or am I just going to keep my head down because i don't I don't want this to come back and bite me in an evaluation or whatever. I'm just going to do what I know, try to do it to the best of my ability and keep my head down.
00:16:29
Speaker
and so environment to me is everything it's the it's the container in which development occurs and what how much learning people are willing to do how much they're willing to step outside their comfort zone to try new things uh how what kind of feedback they get when they try new things even when it doesn't work Exactly the way they'd hoped to have somebody say, I know you were trying something new and I appreciate you for doing that and rewarding the trying versus rewarding or ah criticizing the outcome.
00:17:11
Speaker
People are going to be much more willing to step in and try something new if that's what we rewarded and acknowledged and then used it as a learning experience. Great. What did you learn? What are you going to do again? what are you going to do differently so that we can take that experience and inform the next one differently?
00:17:29
Speaker
But if all that matters is if I look good and have the right answers, then I'm only going to do the things that are safe. I'm never going to take a risk. I'm never going to step outside my comfort zone because I'm self-protecting. i want i want to stay employed. i want to get promoted. And so I'm only going to do the things that make me look good.
00:17:51
Speaker
Which means that we're actually putting a lid on their development if the environment is not right for growth and learning and iteration and practice and getting better at things.
Tailored Training Programs for Effective Learning
00:18:05
Speaker
You know, when I think about going through an exercise, you're trying to roll a program out. You're trying to train people and get them more familiar with different concepts and ideas. And I think about this approach as being a trusted advisor and trying to work through that.
00:18:20
Speaker
I know there's a different solution set for an experienced person versus someone new. Is it all the same? I'm not asking for all of the secret sauce, but I need to know some of it because I know the audience is thinking, what should we be doing? What does this look like if I want to make sure, you know, I'm elevating our game and getting our people seasoned in this area? What does it look like? I mean, what does the right approach look like? You tell me.
00:18:46
Speaker
what in your words, what you think that looks like for someone new, I'm gonna keep it simple, someone just relatively new to the profession and then someone who sees and maybe leadership and how all of those roles play off of one another for success.
00:19:02
Speaker
I think it starts with setting clear expectations for what we want. So if we don't set a target for what this looks like and at what proficiency you need to be at different stages of your career, then We have nothing to shoot at. So how do i how do I go find learning?
00:19:23
Speaker
How do I go find experiences and opportunities to help me develop whatever this is, if somebody hasn't laid out a clear expectation of what I'm trying to get to? so That's the first piece is setting clear expectations.
00:19:39
Speaker
And I mean, doing that in a way that's objective in a way that's measurable, because if it's just vague, like, well, you need to be able to have effective communication with our clients.
00:19:53
Speaker
Okay. What is effective communication and by whose standard? And if I'm evaluating somebody based upon what my understanding of effective communication is, and you're evaluating them against your understanding, neither one of us are wrong. But how confusing is that for a colleague that's saying, I'm trying to get better at this, and neither of you can describe what it looks like.
00:20:18
Speaker
But one of you saying I'm doing it in a way that's outstanding. And one of you is saying meets expectations. And you're both saying I'm doing the same thing. i I can't make sense of that. I don't know how I'm doing. And I don't know what I need to do differently. So we've got to set clear expectations about the behaviors that we want people to engage in.
00:20:39
Speaker
and how that progresses. We have to be able to give clear feedback against those expectations in real time.
00:20:49
Speaker
I mean, we can't wait six months or worse, a year, even a quarter, is a long time to wait for somebody to tell me how I'm doing. Because what if I'm doing something that's ineffective,
00:21:04
Speaker
And I'm doing it for several months because somebody is waiting to give me that feedback on a performance review. Well, that feels pretty crappy to the colleague going, you've known this for four months since I worked on your job.
00:21:17
Speaker
And I'm just now finding out, like, I don't feel like you respect me or you're really invested in my growth and development if you're not sharing that with me. And worse, I've been continuing to do the thing.
00:21:31
Speaker
So as an individual contributor, or you don't even have to be an individual contributor. This could be train ah feedback to a leader. I've been continuing to hardwire this behavior that's not serving me well.
00:21:44
Speaker
So we've got to be able to have really effective ah feedback system so I know how I'm doing. How am I tracking? And then the last piece is how do we create personal accountability around that?
00:21:57
Speaker
Like, how are we measuring it? How are we tracking growth over time? How are we measuring how quickly you're getting to the proficiency we want you to have in that? And having that ecosystem in place puts agency back in the hands of the the person who is doing the developing to say, I'm really clear about what's expected. I know how I'm doing today. i know how I'm doing two weeks from now.
00:22:27
Speaker
I know where to go get learning if I don't know what I'm doing. I know how to like ask to get experience if that's what I need. You know, maybe I've done the learning. Now I need to go get some at bats to see how I'm doing.
00:22:42
Speaker
And then how does that translate into how that supports my growth, my promotion, my career pathing? ah Can I accelerate that if I'm really driven?
00:22:55
Speaker
ah like Those are the questions that I think about, but how do we develop that ecosystem that supports, and whether it's advisory behaviors or technical behaviors or leadership behaviors, it doesn't really matter.
Measuring Training Effectiveness
00:23:09
Speaker
We just need the right container and infrastructure to support me being able to do it well and having more agency over my own development and my own career path.
00:23:22
Speaker
I might have gotten off track with that one. No, no, no, no, you're fine. You're fine. You know, when i whenever I think about training, I'm always thinking about when I'm trying to stand up a program.
00:23:33
Speaker
Okay. And I, and I'm asking you about your approach and what that looks like. And, you know, organizations going want to know what, what this looks like on a budget. Okay. I don't have very much, very many dollars that put towards it.
00:23:46
Speaker
And if I can you know expand it out. So what does it cost? And I know maybe maybe that's too sensitive, but what does that look like from a budgeting perspective when we're trying to build out a solution like this as relationship advisory training?
00:24:00
Speaker
i I think it really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. the The first most important part is we have to know where people's starting point is. Because to yeah I think you said this earlier, there is not a one-size-fits-all training solution, nor should there be.
00:24:18
Speaker
We can't just say, well, because you're at this level, you need to learn all of these things. I may already have some of those skills and be able to demonstrate them really effectively because of like my family of origin or experiences I've had up to this point where I've I've been able to build some of those, whereas other people might be at my same level and come from different experiences and different backgrounds and have none of that. So
00:24:49
Speaker
Being able to tailor it for people, I think that's one of the things and one of the reasons why we spend more than we need to in some areas is we treat everybody the same. And so we're going to put you all in this three day training when that may not be what everyone needs, depending upon where they are on their journey.
00:25:12
Speaker
So I think being able to tailor a little bit helps us invest the right things in the right places. ah We need to look at learning more longitudinally, meaning that just one training one time is probably not going to get the behavior change you want.
00:25:33
Speaker
So what are we doing after the fact to reinforce this behavior? And that gets back to a question you asked me. I'm sitting back at my desk. I'm back doing my work. Well, who's checking in to ask you, hey Chris, we sent you to this advisor training.
00:25:50
Speaker
how many times have you tried a different questioning approach with a client? Just asking you that question does two powerful things. It creates a moment of self-reflection like, oh, have I done that? Okay. Oh, I haven't.
00:26:04
Speaker
I need to remember. And now we can have a conversation about great. What's coming up over the next few weeks where you would have an opportunity to practice this. And then I'll have a forward facing conversation about what getting you an opportunity to get an at-bat.
00:26:20
Speaker
If you say, I've actually had two, well, great. What are you learning? What worked? What, what would you do differently if you could go back and have those conversations again, give you a minute of self-reflection to say, actually, i have done something with that.
00:26:38
Speaker
Here's where I'm seeing some success. And here's where I still need to work. on it the next time i I am in front of a client. So that's one of the things. Where are the other systems? So are we putting into practice that in different firms, call them different things, your coach, your development advisor, your performance advisor?
00:26:59
Speaker
How are they reinforcing what you've learned? And where are you going back to, like after a period of time to revisit that information?
00:27:11
Speaker
Is it something that it's a reinforcement knowledge check? Is it we're going to have a peer cohort meet together over lunch and talk about talk about that content again. And that re-energizes it, if you will, in our brain to say, oh, we need to keep a focus on that.
00:27:33
Speaker
And then when it's time to evaluate performance and behavior, how are you getting feedback on what others are seeing you do? So is it something, if it really is important, are we saying it's important in the other metrics and things that we're tracking as much as we do your utilization, um,
00:27:54
Speaker
And things like that, because oftentimes those are the metrics we say are important. And if we do, then those other things are going to fall by the wayside. And so from a cost perspective,
00:28:08
Speaker
i think it's... mean, it can be several hundred dollars per person, up to several thousand, depending up upon what outcomes you're looking for, how much time you want it to take. But I think the important part is let's look at how much you're spending on the things that aren't working and how can we redesign those?
00:28:32
Speaker
How can we switch out the activities? How can we put different reinforcement systems in place? to get the maximum benefit. And the way I measure that, or it at least with some of the work that I do in one of the programs, I measure it with a pre and post 360.
00:28:50
Speaker
So it's not just, can you pass a knowledge exam? That's important. i want you I want to know that you know, but I'm more concerned with what others are seeing. So getting that different feedback from others about are they noticing a change in your behavior when when you interact with them? Not about the quality. And I think that's another piece is oftentimes in our performance systems, we're asking somebody else to rate you on quality.
00:29:21
Speaker
The research suggests that we're just not good at that as humans, that we're awful raiders of how good somebody else is at something. And I know that's going to be disruptive to a lot of people going, I'm so good. I'm so unbiased.
00:29:37
Speaker
You're a human with a human brain. and The research just does not support that. ah It often says more about us. And if I believe something is really hard and I see you doing it well, I'll probably rate you higher because I think it's really hard to do. And man, like you're doing it so great.
00:29:58
Speaker
You must be amazing. And if I think something's super easy, I'll rate you harder because It comes so naturally to me. So there's this this idiosyncratic rater bias that I think we have to be aware of.
00:30:14
Speaker
But I can rate you on my experience of you and how often I experience that behavior from a frequency perspective. Do I see you do it sometimes? Do I see it do do you do it always? Do I see you do it never?
00:30:28
Speaker
And that is my experience of you. it's It has nothing to do with do you do it everywhere all the time? It's my experience. And i am I can be accurate with that.
00:30:42
Speaker
But that's not a global rating. That's the moments that you're with me. And we've talked about how important the environment is to what we're getting. So what I see with me, somebody else may have a completely different experience with you.
00:30:58
Speaker
And it doesn't mean either of us are right or wrong. We're just two viewpoints at two moments in time. And so I think that's an important part is to think differently about how we're evaluating. So looking more at the frequency of behavior versus somebody rating us on quality of behavior, because we just know we're not we're not great at that.
Overcoming Resistance to Training
00:31:24
Speaker
You know, what I know the steps based on what you're sharing as it relates to socialization and making sure that folks that are are within the firm or within the organization understand the value ah being a trusted advisor.
00:31:38
Speaker
I mean, but yeah we don't all get it at the same pace and speed and level of understanding. What do you say to that one that's always making excuses, that individual that's making excuses?
00:31:49
Speaker
Obviously, management knows the value and they've shared a methodology and an approach and they are going through and giving them feedback and they're monitoring their success in that process.
00:32:00
Speaker
But they just don't get it. And they make these excuses that I'm not able to go through this exercise. I'm developed developmentally challenged and cannot get through it.
00:32:11
Speaker
So what do you say to that person? Because they're part of the equation. How do you bring them aboard in a different way? Because the reason I mentioned that, because I know it's a challenge. All the training, we don't all think training is good.
00:32:24
Speaker
We think it's something else that we need to do. But obviously, the goals and where this organization is headed, that's implemented. It knows the value. So what do you do with that stubborn? At one stubborn, at 10 stubborn, it could be 20 stubborn. As you say, usually more than one. Exactly.
00:32:40
Speaker
ah So usually what I have experienced is that that stubbornness is just a protection mechanism. I'm actually afraid of the vulnerability or I'm afraid of maybe being exposed that this is something that I'm not as good at as I may be at my technical knowledge.
00:33:06
Speaker
And I'm If again, if we reward being great technical practitioners, then being not good at something is going to feel really risky.
00:33:19
Speaker
And I'm not going to want to engage in it because you're going to see my weak spot. And so if if you're in a culture where having a weakness is actually, um exposed and abused.
00:33:38
Speaker
So it's it's not good to tell people what you're not good at because it will be used against you. Well, that's why I'm not going to be ready to do that work because it's just the cost is too high.
00:33:53
Speaker
So I think there's a piece we have to look at with our culture. But then working with working with that person to say, you know, what's underneath that? What's the what's at risk for you to learn or try these new behaviors and help them uncover that maybe they've got a story in their head around that that's not accurate.
00:34:15
Speaker
Also, too, helping them to see the benefit. Like, what what are you what's the cost of not developing this skill set? And I would argue if you start to look at all the signals that are coming in about the current state of our profession, the future, where it's headed, that Being a technical practitioner is going to create less and less value as we move forward because so much of that technical expertise is going to come from the tools and technology that we're interacting with.
00:34:52
Speaker
It's not going to be the one person who holds that information that's going to be the most valuable. That information is available to all of us. And so what's what's the risk and the cost if you don't?
00:35:06
Speaker
And then I think at some point there's also the, what we are going to be known for as an organization. So is it okay not to come along? And sometimes people are just not ready for whatever reason And that may or may not be okay here in this organization. And they like we may have to help them find another organization that's better suited for where they are and what they want to do. Because if we say this is important and this is the direction we're headed, this is what we're investing in, this is what we're going to become as a firm or as an organization, then
00:35:47
Speaker
You can't have somebody who just decides to sit over here on the side and say, I'm not doing that because we're requiring that of everyone else. And that sends a message about what we tolerate.
00:35:59
Speaker
And one of my favorite quotes, which I wish I could attribute it to a person, but I don't know who said it, is we are defined by what we tolerate.
00:36:10
Speaker
We're defined by what we tolerate. So if we tolerate that it's okay to not get on board, it's okay that you can be skeptical. It's okay for you to be afraid. It's okay for you to be unsure, but it's not okay for you not to get on board and work through that to get to the other side.
00:36:29
Speaker
Because what does that send to everybody else? Well, you really don't have to. If you just pout long enough or if you cross your arms and sell enough or do something else that distract detracts or ah maybe distract is the right word, but like you can get away without doing it, then we tell people that what we say doesn't really matter because that's not what we're going to hold you accountable
Benefits of Collective Development
00:36:55
Speaker
to.
00:36:55
Speaker
And I think that's a much bigger problem than somebody saying, i don't think I'm developmentally ready and working through that with them. Sorry, I have a little passion and a soapbox around that. but No worries, no worries. That's good information. You know, when I think about conversations we've had in the past about getting this right, there's value in getting it right.
00:37:19
Speaker
But what does that look like if I'm getting this right on the other side? And we again, you've delivered an answer along these lines and in previous recordings. Maybe others haven't tuned into those yet. But what does it mean to get it right? And why is it important? What are good examples of that? I know why it's important to get it right. But what are good examples of that?
00:37:42
Speaker
Yeah. What it looks like when we get this right is that we embrace the fact that we've all got development to do.
00:37:56
Speaker
And oftentimes, like we get to these senior leadership positions or we get to partner or we get to CEO and it's like, oh, we've arrived. That's it. I'm done. And i that's a very, very dangerous mindset to have because the world is going to continue to change around us.
00:38:19
Speaker
And so I think when we get it right, we're saying we're modeling at the very highest levels that I'm still growing. I'm still getting better at my craft.
00:38:32
Speaker
I'm still realizing there are ways that I could be more effective. And we're open about sharing that. And that's what I've seen when I work with cohorts. And I think that's the best way to do some of this work is to do it collectively with others.
00:38:52
Speaker
When we do that and we realize that others are in the same boat, this like sometimes it can feel very alone, especially when you get to those higher levels.
00:39:04
Speaker
There's fewer people who can relate to the things that you're facing, the decisions that you're having to make, the pressures that are on you, that it can start to become isolating.
00:39:18
Speaker
And Chris, if I'm in a cohort with you and we're all working on this together, then I can say to you, one of the things that I'm working on doing is speaking up when I know there's something that needs to be said that no one's saying.
00:39:35
Speaker
And one of the ways that you could support me in that is if you're noticing that I'm quiet to say, Heather, we haven't heard from you. And I like, I'd love to hear how you're thinking about this.
00:39:49
Speaker
That may be just the window I need to step into that space and say what I'm thinking, but I've been holding back. Or maybe if we're really close friends, there's some signal I can give you that I am feeling this way and I'm not i'm holding something back.
00:40:08
Speaker
that you can help ah you can help me to make space for me to share that. That's a simple example of what collective development starts to look like is if I know you're working on that, hey great. How can I support you with that? I'm not going to use that against you. It's not going to become your Achilles heel.
00:40:27
Speaker
I actually want you to get better at that. And even more so if we share it with our teams. like the people who are reporting to us, there are so many times when I've said, I know sometimes I can jump to a quick answer because I've had so much experience.
00:40:45
Speaker
If you see me doing that, I want you to call me out because I want to hear your thinking. And sometimes i just do it It's, you know, just almost like a tick, they like, oh, I've got this one.
00:41:01
Speaker
But I give them permission and I tell them it's something I'm working on so that it's not scary to say, hey, you're doing that. And I'd love to be able to share my perspective. And then I have to react to that in a positive way.
00:41:15
Speaker
i have to say, thank you for letting me know. i appreciate you doing that. You're right. Let me back that up. Let's not take my idea of, um I want to hear what other people are thinking.
00:41:28
Speaker
That's that is work. I'm going to tell you, that doesn't come easy from a vulnerability perspective, ah just from a consciousness perspective of just saying, hey, I know this about myself.
00:41:41
Speaker
So how can I get others around me supporting supporting me in this? And to your point earlier about cost, those things don't take money. That's he takes no money at all.
00:41:54
Speaker
But we have to have like we have to have someone come in and help us start to see what could be possible and how we would start to redesign our systems to encourage that kind of behavior versus the things that we've experienced in the past.
Key Takeaways and Conclusion
00:42:11
Speaker
Awesome. You know, as we wrap up our conversation today, I'm thinking about the topic. OK, and that's training and that's dollars spent and that's seeing the ROI on the back end. What's that one takeaway you'd like to leave for this audience? Maybe senior leadership. It may be, you know, just trying to figure out what the solution set looks like for an organization. What is that one takeaway you want to leave with the audience?
00:42:38
Speaker
I think it would be starting the design of your training or learning solution with that in mind. How will we know if we were successful with this investment?
00:42:51
Speaker
What will we see differently? And then how can we measure it? And then reverse engineer whatever we design to make sure that we believe it has the best possible chance to at getting us to those outcomes and that we have ways to measure that, whether it's a pre and post 360 or whether we've added questions to our engagement survey that we believe will move as a result of this initiative or this learning that we're doing.
00:43:25
Speaker
Are we putting different things into our performance review? Are we giving opportunities for upward feedback? Are we, again, we we could do something simple, a pre and post assessment on how frequently even I think I'm doing those behaviors and how confident am I in those behaviors right now?
00:43:48
Speaker
And 60 days later, 180 days later, Have that done again and see what's shifting. How much more confident are we now?
00:43:58
Speaker
how How much and do I believe, how often do I believe that I'm demonstrating these behaviors compared to when I started? Now, that's a very low cost, easy ah ROI measurement, and it's based upon self-assessment, but you could extrapolate that out and involve others in that and start to look at, did this make sense?
00:44:22
Speaker
a measurable change in something that was important to us? And then can we start translating it into client metrics? Is our client retention time span going up?
00:44:32
Speaker
Is the number of services that we're offering to them increasing? Because we believe that the better questions that we ask and the more advisory services we provide, we'll find greater opportunities to um to make them ah more sticky.
00:44:49
Speaker
like If they use three or more services, the research says that they're probably going to be much more likely to stick with us long term. So can we start to measure how many services they do? Can we measure client satisfaction scores?
00:45:04
Speaker
And it may not be completely tied, 100% correlated to that investment. But if we believe that investment should have had an impact and those numbers go up, we can likely say that at least a percentage of it was related to the initiative we started.
00:45:21
Speaker
But oftentimes we don't design our training and learning initiatives with that in mind, and we don't have a baseline. So we kind of leave it yeah We look at some of these numbers, but we can't really say, did this impact that? Because we don't know what our baseline was, or we didn't set out to measure it in the beginning. And so we're only measuring it or trying to measure it later.
00:45:47
Speaker
And we can't say whether there's a correlation or not. So there's a lot of things that we can do. And that's why working with someone who is a learning and development professional who can help guide you and help you with the strategy behind that,
00:46:02
Speaker
ah is going to help make that investment more likely to result in good client outcomes, good organizational outcomes, as well as satisfaction for the people who are participating in the programs and feel like this was worth my time.
00:46:19
Speaker
Like I have learned something and I am doing something differently as a result.
00:46:25
Speaker
You know, as always, it's an absolute pleasure chatting with you. There is more to come. This is not the last time you'll see Heather. She has a wealth of knowledge in this area. and we're just so excited here, Rebecca, to just be able to have a conversation with you and just get to the bottom of things. So thank you for your time once again. And we appreciate you.
00:46:43
Speaker
Thank you so much. I love that the profession's having this conversation because it's only going to help make us stronger as we move forward. So thank you. going look into the camera and I just have a few words. And that is, this is absolutely a necessity.
00:46:59
Speaker
When we think about how we advise within a business, those that are advising can get better. We can be trusted advisors. It's not just a professional services uniform we put on. It is what we need to have as a skill set.
00:47:14
Speaker
as we move forward in this new environment. So know that it is not an easy approach. You can't do it overnight. It's not overly complicated. Complicated in the sense of don't go it alone.
00:47:25
Speaker
Just understand exactly what your formula might need to look like, given the size and the complexity of your business. So as always, I thank you for tuning in to Becker Accounting Podcast, and I look forward to future conversations.