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BAP Ep. 6 - The Advisor Leap Part 4: The Relationship Is The Product with Heather Esposito
80 Plays15 hours ago
In this episode of a five-part series, Chris Mitchell and leadership coach Heather Esposito unpack why technical excellence alone isn’t enough—and how “relationship is the container for the product.” They explore the difference between being likable and being trusted, why professional distance can be fear-based, and how real advisory work requires psychological safety, vulnerability, and strong boundaries. You’ll also hear practical ways to build trust without becoming performative, and why deeper relationships can increase efficiency and impact.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:09
Speaker
name Chris Mitchell and welcome to another episode of Becker Accounting Podcast. And I'm back again with Heather Esposito. And we're going to spend some time talking about relationship is the product. Okay.
Human-Centered Leadership
00:00:22
Speaker
Now I will say this and I won't steal any of her thunder. She's shared her background in the past, but going ask her to do it again, but share something different. You know, you're a very interesting person.
00:00:33
Speaker
You know, i figured this out because we've we've had quite a few chats now. So, you know, apprise the audience as to why you're here and why you can share on you know, relationships and products and some of the other things before you get started. Some of the other things we talked about, we talked about AI.
Importance of Relationships in Leadership
00:00:49
Speaker
You know, we've talked about a compliance mindset. We've talked about advisory mindset. And she's filled me in and she's diagnosed me. I'm telling you in the past. And I am a better person for it. So, Heather, I'll turn it over to you. You already know the way it flows and you've done great in the past. So please share with the audience.
00:01:08
Speaker
yeah Thanks, Chris. ah Something new I can share with you. Well, specifically related to this podcast is my work completely centers around human centered leadership. I very much care about the people inside organizations,
00:01:25
Speaker
how we take care of them, how we unlock the potential of them, how we care for them. And the work that I do specifically around helping leaders build psychologically safe teams and the work I do around coaching, I think is what has best positioned me for the conversation we're going to have today, because that is all about leaning into the relationship side of our leadership.
Why Relationships Matter More Than Products
00:01:53
Speaker
Awesome. You know, I think about the title relationship is the product. And I always think, no, the product is a product. You want me to come in and you want me to deliver a solution. And whether that's reconcile accounts, whether that's solve for a reorg equation, however I fit in as a consultant. But that's not it.
00:02:11
Speaker
You know, based on all the insight and what you've shared in the past, I know that's not it. and Okay. Why is a relationship so important? I know that's not a part of our run a show, but why is the relationship piece so important?
00:02:24
Speaker
Well, ah the product is the product. And if that's the case, then it can become commoditized. And if we become a commodity, then really all that starts to set us apart is price. And we're in a lose-lose game if I'm just trying to give you the lowest price because you see our product is the same. Like in our business, we're in relationship. Relationship is the container for the product.
00:02:51
Speaker
And we've all talked and talked about people we've worked with that we would say, oh, my gosh, I would never do business with anyone else. I trust them implicitly. Here's how they were able to support me.
00:03:03
Speaker
And we're humans doing business with other humans. So like that by its very nature is relationship. Now, I have to be able to deliver a quality product behind that.
00:03:14
Speaker
But the relationship is the container for that product and the reason why people stay with us. They don't they don't stay just because we do great work. They stay because they enjoy working with us and they believe that we're supporting them and helping them.
00:03:27
Speaker
And, you know, I think I get lost a
Personality vs. Relationships
00:03:29
Speaker
bit. I get lost in sauce because I think, look here, I've got a great personality. someone meet Someone will write me and say, you don't, Chris. I know you. That's okay. That's okay. I think my personality is pretty good.
00:03:41
Speaker
Okay. I've been a partner at a firm. I've delivered at a very high level for so many years. It's not ah just about my personality. The relationship and people think I got a good personality, so therefore i'm gonna have good relationships. It doesn't work that way.
00:03:55
Speaker
Why does it work that way? Because it sounds like it might. But why does it not work that way? It's it's not that's not all of it. It's not all of it. And it's it's yeah, it's not transferable um in both directions.
00:04:08
Speaker
So having a great personality, you know, the person who is the life of the party can keep a conversation going. We typically think of those as more of our extroverts ah and personality. If we believe that's what relationship is.
00:04:23
Speaker
Then we take it off the development agenda because personality to a large extent is something we're born with. There's all kinds of personality tests out there. And some of us were born more extroverted. Some of us were born very introverted. Some of us were born very gregarious.
00:04:41
Speaker
And if we start to just look at people's personality as the marker of whether they're relational, we're missing a large part of the boat, because I think we can all identify people that are fun to be around and they're going to be the person at the top of my party list.
00:04:58
Speaker
But if I'm going to do business with them, they'd be the last person on my list. Great to be around, but... I don't trust them. i don't know that I want to be in deep relationship with them, but man, they're the best person to hang out with.
00:05:14
Speaker
You know, I, you know, I'm going to say this. I know my job. I'm professionally competent. I know what I do, how to deliver every single day. Why
Beyond Professional Competency
00:05:22
Speaker
is that not enough? You know, I started thinking about the the whole relationship piece of it and, you know, how it's get it gets factored in into my delivery exercise. But How come my professional competency is just not enough in order to get me across the finish line?
00:05:38
Speaker
um And maybe, you know, i know we've talked about this in the past. I'm setting you up a bit. OK, you know, I'm setting you up. Why is it not enough? It should be. i mean, I'm a consultant and, you know, I'm um a among them you know very successful in certain areas. Why is that not enough nowadays?
00:05:54
Speaker
I don't know that it's ever been enough, but we've gotten rewarded for it. And if you look at any of the literature and they describe about leadership competencies or human competencies, there's this there's the task side of it. Even if you look at the DISC behavioral side styles, you'll see one half of the circle is around task and your ability to get the work done. And the other side is around people in relationship.
00:06:22
Speaker
So we've always had both of these sides. Now, we tend to have more of a bent naturally, just based upon our experiences and our personality and things like that, that we have a natural affinity to one.
00:06:37
Speaker
But if we over-index on one side and don't develop the other, then we're limiting our effectiveness. We're limiting the work that we can get done with and through people.
00:06:49
Speaker
And so that relational piece is is equally as important. And if you can develop both sides in a meaningful way, you can you can increase your output. You can increase um the effectiveness of your leadership.
00:07:05
Speaker
And the effectiveness of your organization, because our organizations are really nothing more than a group of people that are working together towards a common purpose. So this relational aspect is not just important in how we serve our clients, but it's important in how we lead organizations.
00:07:24
Speaker
So now I'm
Developing Relational Skills
00:07:25
Speaker
sold. Okay. I'm sold for a lot of reasons. I've worked with you. We talked through a lot of things in the past. What goes into this exercise? So I've got the personality.
00:07:35
Speaker
I need to understand the relationship piece. How do I get the right balance so that I'm delivering what I need to deliver? I mean, what, do how do I start out on the right path?
00:07:46
Speaker
I think that's the that's the big question is how do you get that feedback to know what you're currently doing? And you'll often hear me talk about intent versus impact.
00:07:57
Speaker
And when I'm working with leaders that sometimes have been referred to me that, you know, they're they're great producers or they're great business developers, but nobody on their team wants to work with them or nobody feels like we're, people are leaving the organization that work on their team.
00:08:16
Speaker
And, you know, this is not, this is not an accounting issue. This is just, this is universal in business is oftentimes if you're a great producer and I used to work with sales organizations and you were a top producer, mean, you could get a, you could get away with some,
00:08:34
Speaker
bad behavior, if you will, like, okay, well, yeah, they're a little abrasive or yeah they're rude. How can we just try and limit that? Because like, we don't want to lose the things that they do are really great. And I think that does a disservice.
00:08:48
Speaker
One of the quotes I love is we're defined by what we tolerate. And if we tolerate you not being relational, because you're a very good task producer or compet you know technically competent, then we send a message that that's what matters. And we breed more of that because, again, nobody is held accountable for developing this other side of ourselves.
00:09:15
Speaker
And it it is something we can work on, it whether it comes to you naturally or not. oftentimes I find it's less about knowing what to do and more about what's running below the surface that keeps you from showing up that way.
00:09:32
Speaker
You know, I think when we think about it being more relational, um am I likable? I think likability has something to do with it, but I think it's more important for someone to trust you.
00:09:43
Speaker
What are your thoughts? When I say likability versus trust, they're not the same thing. No, but they're they're not at all. And actually think likability, if we overuse it, can get in the way of relationship because we over index so much on.
00:10:01
Speaker
I need to show up in a way to make sure that there's nothing that happens where you won't like me. And if I do that, we're no longer in true relationship because everything I'm doing is performative.
00:10:14
Speaker
I'm holding back saying the things that I might want to say. I'm holding back on making decisions. I'm holding back on saying the thing that nobody else is saying and Over time, that will destroy relationship because people will be like, I don't even know who you are.
00:10:34
Speaker
You don't you don't walk your talk. And i don't I don't know whether I'm getting the version of you you manufacture ah for everyone else or the true, true version. And so that directly impacts trust that you'll this example is as old as time.
00:10:51
Speaker
But if I'm just trying to be likable, tell you how good you look in your suit. If I want you to really trust me, I would say, Chris, there's some spinach in your teeth right now that you need to you need to get out because you're like, OK, like that was hard for that might have been hard for her to say.
00:11:11
Speaker
But I know that she really cares about me. She cares about like that. That would be important to me to know and that I wouldn't want to continue talking to all of these people with spinach in my teeth.
00:11:22
Speaker
But if I just want you to like me, I'm just going to say, hey, that suit looks really good on you today. That color looks great. And Hope that the spinach just works its way out or no one notices or somebody else
Building Trust in Leadership
00:11:32
Speaker
tells you that. So likability and trust likability can get in the way of relationship, but it can also get in the way of trust.
00:11:40
Speaker
So when I think about trust and building that level of trust, how do I go about doing that? I mean, you hire me to deliver. I'm competent. I'm efficient.
00:11:51
Speaker
um You know, don't you trust the work that I do? Or how do I build that trust? I'm trying to align it the right way where the audience can understand. It's still a human component to it. It's just not the product and what I deliver.
00:12:04
Speaker
I trust that you can do it, you know, but I I get a lot out of it if it was done in a different way. So when I say build that trust, what does that what does that mean? I think trust is the the whole package with which we show up.
00:12:17
Speaker
And so trust is there is a piece around honesty. i think that's the that's where we get in trouble with the word trust is we so tie it to honesty. And that's a piece of it. If I want you to trust me, you need to know that what I tell you is the truth and that I'm going to follow through on that.
00:12:37
Speaker
And it also encompasses the pieces you talked about. I need to deliver a quality product to you. ah So that helps to build trust because it helps build trust in my capability.
00:12:50
Speaker
There's a piece of trust that's integrity, that I do what I say I'm going to do and that I follow through on that, that I'm a woman of my word. That helps to build trust so that when When I ask more of the relationship, you can draw on past experience and say, well, every time that Heather has shared that she would get it done or she would figure it out, she always has. And so I'm going to trust that that pattern would still continue.
00:13:21
Speaker
And then there's the piece of. like there's two ways to look at trust. Some people give trust and then wait for you to break it. So like people who are very trusting from the beginning until you do something that shows them they shouldn't trust you.
00:13:36
Speaker
And others wait for you to earn trust through these repeated. And we're just kind of naturally wired to to be one or the other. um And so for those people that naturally give trust,
00:13:50
Speaker
and innocent until proven guilty kind of things, then it's just being consistent. And then you'll show people that um you're worthy of trust. But it can be built in the quickest of moments. um Very small things can help build trust.
00:14:07
Speaker
And once you've broken it, it takes a lot to get it back. So it's much, much easier to build ah quickly. But if you've lost it, it takes a long time to build it back.
00:14:20
Speaker
You know, when I think about um the relationship piece of it and I think about what it what goes into that, I like my distance sometimes. Yeah. I like being out there on my island. I like being the one that's able to solve and be efficient and just work with it that way.
00:14:38
Speaker
What do you say when I say, i like my professional distance? What if I don't want to you know bridge the gap and and better the relationship in a different way? Is that bad for me to want my space like that?
00:14:51
Speaker
and Well, I would ask you, like, what what does it give you? So what's the benefit of that distance? And what's it costing you? Where do you see it not serving you?
00:15:02
Speaker
How would you answer that? You know, it's probably to cost me a lot because I know that we're going down a different path. I know the world's changing. I know that um you have to be more than just the brain trying to solve for something and giving a solution.
00:15:18
Speaker
ah You've got to be willing to invest more in a relationship. So I know what the gain is on the other side. How can I build that trust if I'm just the one that's going to get in there and and solve and give you what you need at the end of the day? far as a solution, Seth, that's not always it.
00:15:32
Speaker
But if I can sit down and huddle up with you in a different way, maybe it expands the relationship and I can grow in a different way. So I think I'm selling myself short, I think. And that's what I'm trying to trying to get the audience to understand is that it has to be bigger than that. You can't rely on, you know, how we deliver it in the past and having that space and, you know being able to geek out. Who doesn't like to geek out, you know, on internal controls and and numbers and so forth and so on.
00:15:57
Speaker
But you can't do that anymore. Am I right in saying it that way or is it is is that crazy? No, I think that's a piece of it. Can i ask you a more vulnerable question? Yeah, absolutely. yeah So what is that distance protecting you from?
00:16:11
Speaker
You know what? I think it's just doing the extra work. How about that? You know, sometimes it depends on my personality. I may be more of an introvert and I want to isolate. And then you asked me to be more extrovert in in that equation and trying to build a relationship.
00:16:25
Speaker
And maybe I'm just uncomfortable doing that. You know, so I think it's more just who I am as a human being. Now, I'm more of an extrovert. I'm just telling you, I'm just playing into the whole thing. But I think if I was an introvert, have a problem with it.
00:16:37
Speaker
You know, now i got to be more relational. And and maybe I don't like i getting out front like that because I equate it to public speaking. When you do enough of this, I mean, those that are successful in this business don't have a problem with public speaking because we're always speaking on some subject matter. But um building relationships and being plugged in in a different way um for that relationship, it it requires a different investment. And there's there's fear there.
00:17:04
Speaker
So I think it's just fear. Maybe I just I'm afraid. I'm afraid to dive in in that way. Yeah. And that's, i mean, a little bit, that's what I was getting at with the question is typically something like distance is a fear-based
Professional Distance and Relational Effectiveness
00:17:18
Speaker
thing. that's That's just about kind of protecting something that we may not want people to see. Maybe if I, like, if I step out, you're going to want to know more about me than I'm willing to share. So it's easier to maintain the distance and not engage in the relationship.
00:17:35
Speaker
But people tend to meet us. There's something called co-regulation. And when we're when we're in relationship with with each other, we non-consciously kind of size these each other up. And how how much can I share here? How much should I not share? And we kind of figure out what's going to work in this interchange. And so if we don't have the capacity share um to access that relational side of us.
00:18:06
Speaker
And that's really what you're talking about distances. I'm uncomfortable on that side. And if we can't access that, then people are going to meet us the same way. And they're going to be like, I just don't really feel that connection. i don't know that I don't know that I trust them because I don't think that I'm seeing the full side of them. And ah that can start to impact client retention. it can start to impact the quality of what happens in that engagement because I just don't know. I don't know how much I want to share with you.
00:18:38
Speaker
Because I don't feel like you're really that invested in me. You're maintaining this distance. Now, if you if I'm just asking you to do technical work and, hey, here's my here's my box of receipts, here's my stack of documentation, generate my return or complete the audit,
00:18:56
Speaker
great. That's that I probably would trust you to do that because you look technically competent and I don't need necessarily for you to be in deep relationship for me. But if we're talking about building an advisory skill set where I want yeah Basically, you're going to sit next to me, ah metaphorically, you're like i'm on my board, if you will, to help me make good decisions about this business.
00:19:19
Speaker
You need somebody who's willing to be vulnerable with you and to share the information so that you're looking at the complete picture, not just the parts that they feel comfortable with you seeing.
00:19:31
Speaker
You know, when I think about the advisory mindset and I think about the construct of the relationship element of it and intimacy comes into
Intimacy, Vulnerability, and Professionalism
00:19:42
Speaker
play. That's a big word in a lot of different ways. And when we say intimacy and, you know, i need coaching now, so I'm going to call on Coach Heather to help me with this equation. How do I get how do I get better at that piece of it? Because it sounds kind of out there.
00:19:57
Speaker
You know, it's a big word. It's a lot that goes into it. What's a program look like? How do I get more comfortable with understanding that definition? And, you know, what's my what's some action items for me if I'm just stuck on the other side of it?
00:20:12
Speaker
I think the the reason why we get uncomfortable with the word intimacy is because there's a sits right behind it is vulnerability. Hmm. if If we're going to be in a more intimate relationship, and I don't mean a romantic, you know boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, partner, spouse relationship, what i when I'm referring to is a relationship where we've got really open dialogue and communication.
00:20:38
Speaker
And I'm saying to you, Chris, as a business owner, I think I've made some real mistakes and I'm not sure what to do with them. And I feel completely underwater and I feel overwhelmed and out over my skis.
00:20:53
Speaker
Like that's that person is being vulnerable with you. And they're like they're inviting you into an intimate relationship with them where you're sharing kind of the warts and things like that. And I think what Where we need to be careful, especially as we develop this advisory mindset and the skill of it is being in deep relationship and not losing yourself and your own boundaries.
00:21:19
Speaker
So um again, this similar in an advisory relationship, but if you think about a therapy relationship or even a coaching relationship, It is not appropriate for me as a coach to lay out all the stuff I've been through and say, oh, my gosh, let me tell you about my family and let me tell you about these things. i mean, I am here to work with you.
00:21:44
Speaker
But you still need to feel like I'm connected with you. i care about you. i can sit with you through this situation and not get enmeshed in it like that. I still have this professional boundary where you trust me and you feel like I am caring for you and for the the challenges you're facing.
00:22:07
Speaker
without getting in the same boat with you. And so I think that's the, that's the difference is how to develop this capacity to care for other people and to be with them through whatever it is that they're facing and the challenges and decisions that they're making without feeling like you have to, um,
00:22:31
Speaker
You have to give up yourself in that process or give up your perspective or give up your boundary. And that's why I think that word starts to feel uncomfortable because being in relationship is not just being completely unguarded.
00:22:46
Speaker
we We earn the right. to, to be vulnerable with other people earn the right to experience our vulnerability. But it's, it's definitely an art. And it's something that um we have to, we have to work at developing, not just as a skill, you know, it's just like, well I'm going to learn to be kind with people, I'm going to learn the ways to talk to people, I'm going to Learn how not to be so brash.
00:23:16
Speaker
There's a piece of that. But if it's not coming from a genuine place, people suss that out pretty quickly and realize that this feels very performative and not not authentic to who they are.
00:23:30
Speaker
So that's what's so complicated about it, because I think the construct and you talk about the heart and the feelings and the emotions and being able to get to that point. I mean, is it what does that process look like? I guess i'm I'm just confused because I know it's got to be laborious because it's a you got to look at yourself.
00:23:49
Speaker
and see who you are. and And, you know, you want to be authentic when you're sitting down and you want to build that trust and that and intimacy ah with the client. um And, you know, it it just seems like one of the toughest things you to I'd ever have to do. Maybe I'm just the, you know, not the norm, but it just seems very difficult.
Challenges in Developing Relational Skills
00:24:09
Speaker
And that construct and how do I, you know, how to even start down? I guess it's just looking at myself and seeing where I am today and and my fears and my appetite for it. I don't know.
00:24:19
Speaker
yeah that Well, there's a couple of things here that our profession historically has attracted, just by the nature of the work, somebody who tends to lead lean more analytical, more rational, more logical, math, numbers.
00:24:38
Speaker
I mean, same with architecture, same with architecture. but like And even a lot of medicine will attract people who are like deep in the science and the knowing of the the information.
00:24:53
Speaker
So we're already starting off. i don't want to say at a disadvantage, but we were hiring for a side of the brain that doesn't lean relational. Let's just put it that way.
00:25:04
Speaker
And so this is something that we have to work a little bit harder at because we have a part of our brain that's just so much stronger and has been reliable. And so it's like, let me just logically, rationally think this out.
00:25:19
Speaker
And we've talked in other episodes about these human skills and working with people, especially when we're talking about this more advisory mindset where it's not just producing the technical work.
00:25:34
Speaker
humans Humans are complex. They're emotional. Oftentimes, the problems they're bringing us have multiple impacts. like We talk about complex adaptive systems.
00:25:47
Speaker
It's not just figuring out what to do about this one aspect of my business. It's the ripple effects into all kinds of other places, not just within my business, but with my suppliers, with my vendors, with my community that I operate in, with my employees. I mean, gosh, you start to think about this and it's like, there's no simple decision that doesn't play out four or five, six other places that I need to consider.
00:26:15
Speaker
And some of those could be really hard decisions. But Letting people go, um ceasing lines of business where we know that like that's going to impact our employees there and their families and the community in which they live and support.
00:26:35
Speaker
Those are things that aren't, they're just not easy to always approach from a logical, rational standpoint. And the person that we're advising is going to be coming to us with emotion. Now, that doesn't mean they're like crying every time they meet with us, but they're wrestling with something um that ah that they just don't know how to carry forward.
00:27:04
Speaker
And we've got to be able to be comfortable sitting in there with them in that while they're going through it. I think back to coaching. Here's a here's a good example.
00:27:14
Speaker
I think back to a coaching class that where I was teaching other leaders how to become coaches. And so they were doing kind of a mock session. And one of them asked a question that did bring up some emotion for for the other person.
00:27:32
Speaker
And they immediately wanted to like make them not feel that. Like, oh, it's okay. I'm sorry I asked that question. and we had to pause for a minute to kind of explore what was going on.
00:27:46
Speaker
What was uncomfortable for you? When the other person, when your question brought up emotion for them, like they didn't say anything to hurt their feelings.
00:27:56
Speaker
It just had them... realize something or have an insight about something that touched them. And they're like, because I don't know what to do with it. I don't know what to do. And I so I just wanted to make it go away.
00:28:09
Speaker
And we talked about how important it was, like we'll check with them, see how they're maybe they're completely fine, that this insight has generated something for them.
00:28:21
Speaker
But we're we'd often like, In our society, we're often taught to be strong, suppress emotion, don't show that. And that has a lot of negative
Enhancing Leadership Through Relationships
00:28:31
Speaker
effects for us. But so we don't get a lot of experience and exposure and reps to how to be with someone.
00:28:40
Speaker
When they're going through something really hard, whether there's emotion there or not, there's at least the dilemma of i want to make the right decision and the right decision isn't always a clear answer. So that is hard for people.
00:28:57
Speaker
It's hard for us. You know, when I when I think about opportunity and I think ah about those that may not be doing it right, I think I understand kind of what that looks like, because I think we're all trying to search for that and trying to get the right balance of it.
00:29:11
Speaker
um I think as a salesperson in the past, I'm very in tune with what's going on with my client. OK, when I walk in their office and I see pictures of their family and I ask about their their day as well as their the holiday season and all these other things come into play. I mean, I genuinely care about what's going on with them and I and I get there. But I know that I'm not going deep enough as it relates to it. And we just kind of stay there. There's brevity to it. And then we move on to the business of business, whatever that looks like.
00:29:41
Speaker
Who's doing it right? What's that example? I know you've got some where someone's just right on the mark as it relates to it and how they're designing things and how they are rolling out programs and how they are helping their people be more successful in this space.
00:29:57
Speaker
Yes, I'm always really careful about saying like people are not doing it right or they are doing it right because that, well, A, that just comes from a place of judgment and who am I to to to judge what's right and what's not.
00:30:11
Speaker
But what I think is, because we're all trying to do the best we can with the tools we have. i mean, nobody... I don't think anybody wakes up in the morning just saying, how can I be a really big jerk to other people today and upset them?
00:30:26
Speaker
However, we may show up in conversations or do things through our behavior that leaves that impact on other people unintentionally.
00:30:38
Speaker
And so the first thing that i I would say when I think about the people who are doing it right, they're getting feedback into the system. They're getting data around that.
00:30:50
Speaker
They're not wondering about the impact they have. um I actually had one partner tell me one time, they said, well, like, I know how to be nice to my direct reports, but with my peers, I don't have to do that.
00:31:09
Speaker
It's like, oh, that's an interesting perspective. I'm in a partnership. Oh, yes, it is. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. i was like, that's an interesting perspective to have. And that you wouldn't just want to be in good relationship with everyone. And I think what he was trying to say was that he wanted to be able to have these open, honest, direct conversations with It just came out. it The impact that it had was not at all the intent.
00:31:42
Speaker
And so I think it was OK. Well, it's OK for me to hurt your feelings. You just don't like what I'm saying versus is there a way that I could change what I'm trying to share?
00:31:53
Speaker
So that it doesn't come out as an attack or that it doesn't hurt someone's feelings. And to me, that's what being in relationship or relationship being the product is really all about.
00:32:05
Speaker
Because there are ways to do that. That is a skill that I can teach you how to do. But you also have to have the mindset that says, like, that's important to me. It's important to me that I want to treat the people around me well. And so I'm going to figure out what I need to shift or change about myself to be able to do that more effectively.
00:32:29
Speaker
Because it's still at the end of the day, the outcome is you want to be able to share a perspective or communicate a message. But the impact is, am I doing it in a way that destroys relationship where people try to interact with me as little as possible and are probably resistant to what I say because of the method in which I communicate it?
00:32:51
Speaker
Or people say, like, i actually really enjoy being in conversations with them. They're bringing up a lot of important things that we should be talking about and that we should be thinking about. And I love that they do it in a way that's so respectful.
00:33:06
Speaker
So getting enough data into the system, whether it's feedback orally or i just I love a 360 because it gives us an opportunity to see how am I showing up with direct reports or people that sit below me in the organization that I may have positional influence over.
00:33:29
Speaker
How am I interacting with peers at the same level? how it is How does my leadership see me? How do they experience me? And if you find that those groups are are evaluating, you are giving you feedback that looks very different, that's probably an indicator that you're spending a lot of effort trying to be somebody for each group.
00:33:54
Speaker
and that you're not really in integrity with yourself. And so that's, that's really hard to sustain. Performative relationship or trying to manage impressions, like who do I need to be for you? And then, okay, okay, I've got to change and put on a different costume to be what I need to be for the other person.
00:34:13
Speaker
That is extremely effortful. And then the last thing I think we need is visibility. We can't I don't think many firms have access to know where their people are developmentally when it comes to relationship.
00:34:32
Speaker
They're relying on gut instinct. And that gut instinct typically has more to do with the extroversion, the personality characteristics, the likability. And if we like being around them, like, ah, they're great relationally.
00:34:47
Speaker
And we're not looking at how they're treating their direct reports on their job. We're not looking at how they treat um the janitorial staff or our administrative staff. Do they see them as just a tool to get them what they need or are they encouraging them and are they helping them grow and develop?
00:35:10
Speaker
And most firms do not have good insight into where their people are developmentally measuring it, holding people accountable and those types of things.
Efficiency vs. Effectiveness in Relationships
00:35:20
Speaker
You know, one thing that comes to mind when I think about this whole process, you know, of relationships and I think about competency, I feel like I'm very, my professional competency and being very efficient and delivering whatever I need to deliver. And there's more time required for the relationship piece of it.
00:35:39
Speaker
What do you have to say when I say efficiency is out the door? You know, I think we're going to lose. We're not going to be as efficient because we're working on this relationship piece. What comes to mind?
00:35:50
Speaker
yeah So i I would not say efficiency is out the door at all. It does at times feel slower. But my experience time and time and time again is that the work that I can do through deeper relationship and the insights that emerge, and I almost visualize it like hopping over the rock.
00:36:17
Speaker
So if I'm trying to push the rock, push the rock out of the way or trying to figure out how to work my way around it, sometimes that can feel very long because we're encountering a lot of resistance.
00:36:31
Speaker
But when you have insight, it's almost like you you leap over. And so sometimes the solutions or the outcomes that emerge are are so much exponentially greater that the efficiency that you think you gained by rushing forward just through the task Because we get our work done with and through people. So especially if we want to be truly efficient, if I have to do it all myself, I'm limited by myself.
00:37:04
Speaker
But if I can delegate and people are rushing around me to say, hey, how can I support you? How can I help get this project over the the finish line?
00:37:15
Speaker
Because they're in relationship with me, I've demonstrated I care about them. They've demonstrated that they care about me. Now I've got a lot more resources at my disposal.
00:37:27
Speaker
Those people that don't lean into relationship and may have even damaged relationships, nobody comes to rescue them. They're like, ah sorry, busy on a project. Sorry, I'm on PTO. Can't do that.
00:37:40
Speaker
And, and my experience has been because I invest heavily in relationship that people are all the time saying, Hey, how can I help you? I'm willing to stay late. Can I pick up something for you?
00:37:51
Speaker
ah Because like I've made deposits at other times. And so now like it's an opportunity to make a withdrawal because I've built up that relationship bank account.
00:38:02
Speaker
You know, think as we're trying to wrap things up in our conversation today and I think about relationship is the product, as always, I'd like to leave the audience with a
Personality vs. Relational Capacity
00:38:11
Speaker
takeaway. I mean, what's that one thing?
00:38:13
Speaker
um Because I know we prioritize a lot of things in our lives. And when it comes to work, I pride myself on being certified, efficient. you know, competent and quick to deliver whatever my client needs. And that's not all of it. So what's that one takeaway when we because the relationship, I get it now, by the way, your yeah your coaching has helped. um but So I get it. But what's that one takeaway for the audience?
00:38:38
Speaker
I'd say don't confuse relationship with personality. If we think that your personality determines your relational capacity, then we take it off the developmental agenda. And it's now just something that's fixed. Either you have it or you don't.
00:38:55
Speaker
But when we say you can be technically competent, you can get a lot of work done, and you may even lean more on the task side.
00:39:07
Speaker
But relational capacity is something that we can grow and develop when we're intentional about it and getting feedback about where you currently are. um What are the things getting in your way?
00:39:19
Speaker
Then you can start to go to work at creating that and becoming more effective on both sides of the equation. The way you get your work done and the way you interact with people.
00:39:32
Speaker
You know, i I so appreciate you as always. I know in the past we've talked about so many different things, compliance mindset, advisory mindset. Now we're talking about relationships and, you know, we're trying to solve for how important we are in a system that's changing in an equation that's changing.
00:39:49
Speaker
AI will not replace Chris because I'll know a lot of things. I am human and I'm going to go ahead and use that the right way. in order to project the the a the energy that I think my client needs in order to be successful. So I thank you for even just training me because I've learned a lot. But ah more importantly, thank you for your time.
00:40:07
Speaker
hey You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Awesome. Awesome. I look at the camera and I'll say this. Okay. It's not what you know. Okay. It's all about building the relationship. It's all about the intimacy element of it. It's all about how relatable am I? Do I really care? Am I paying attention to all those other things that should be a factoid for me to consider when I have a relationship? It's not just how smart you are and what you deliver at the end of the day.
00:40:33
Speaker
You're not going to shut down efficiency because you decide to go down this path. You're actually going to create something that's completely different. Yeah. So I'm just so excited that I'm able to spend this time with you today.
00:40:44
Speaker
So as we continue our journey on Becker Accounting Podcast, I've just enjoyed this conversation. I look forward to to future conversations.