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Tax News Now Ep. 16 - Developing a Coaching Mindset and Navigating Clients Through Partnership Complexity with Mark Mirsky
2 Playsin 6 days
In this episode Mark Gallegos, Tax Partner at Porte Brown, and his guest, Mark “Coach” Mirsky of Aprio, LLP, discuss Mark’s career path towards becoming a trusted advisor known for a coaching-first mindset. The conversation then goes deep on partnerships and other flow-through entities: why they’re so often misunderstood, the common compliance red flags, and how advisors can add real value by thinking long-term and aligning tax strategy with client goals.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Focus
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome back to Tax News Now, where we focus not just on what's changing in tax, but how great advisors think, grow, and lead an increasingly complex profession.
00:00:18
Speaker
Today's episode is a special one for me personally. My guest is someone I've known for years, not just as a technical expert, but as a trusted friend, a mentor, and one of the most thoughtful advisors in our profession.
Guest Introduction: Mark Mursky and Career Overview
00:00:29
Speaker
I'm joined by Mark Mursky from Aperio.
00:00:31
Speaker
Many of you know Mark as coach and that nickname is well-earned. He's built a career at the intersection of deep technical knowledge, real-world business insight, and a coaching mindset that focuses on helping clients and advisors be better tomorrow than they were yesterday.
00:00:45
Speaker
Mark's journey spans through international tax, middle market advisory, firm ownership, teaching, mentoring, the list goes long, soccer, the particular depth of partnerships, which we'll talk about today, but also um he is just someone that the term coach, and we'll get into that as well, is something that really expounds upon who he is as a person.
Career Beginnings: From Medicine to Tax Accounting
00:01:08
Speaker
So today we'll spend the first half of the conversation talking about his journey in this industry, what drew him into tax, the inflection points along the way, and what it really means to be a coach. And we'll shift into partnerships and flow throughs, the traps, the opportunities and why this is an area that is very complex for all of us advisors out there.
00:01:27
Speaker
So, Mark, it's an honor to have you on the Tax News Now podcast. Great to be here. Awesome. So let's just start at the beginning, Mark. um Very few people wake up as kids in a particular day and say, I want to be a tax accountant, right? So what what got you into accounting and what kind of got you into tax in the first place?
00:01:46
Speaker
Kind of walk us through that backstory. Sure. It's kind of funny, to be honest. i When I was six years old, um my grandma had passed away.
00:01:57
Speaker
And from that point forward, I was pre-med. I knew I wanted to be a doctor. i was going to be a family practice doctor. My cousin was a family practitioner. So I thought I'd walk in his shoes and he could coach me through it.
00:02:12
Speaker
And up until i took biology 110 with Professor Sweeney at University of Illinois, I was pre-med. And I took this class and I busted my butt to try to get a good grade.
00:02:24
Speaker
And I got a C. And I figured if this is the best I can do, I'm in the wrong thing. And literally because of one class, kind of changed my mind that I'm in the wrong thing. I didn't really know what to go into. happened to speak with Professor Richard Ziegler, who was a professor at the time in accounting at University of Illinois. And he a he was one of those most 100 influential people in accounting back then, right? He sat on FASB. Anyway, he told me accounting is the language of business.
00:02:58
Speaker
If you go into accounting, you can go anywhere. You can go into finance. You can go into you can business management. But you'll have a great base of knowledge. And he convinced me that, OK, that makes sense. I was good with numbers.
00:03:12
Speaker
you know and you know Although I wanted to help people and be a doctor and make sure no one else would die, i could still help people just in a different way. And generally, what I do now for a living It's not life or death until we tell them how much they owe.
00:03:28
Speaker
Sometimes we'll give them a heart attack, right? Right. But that's pretty much how I got into it.
Early Public Accounting Experiences
00:03:33
Speaker
That's great. That's great. And so see yeah yeah you go into college, you're thinking you're pre-med, you might be a doctor, and and then here you are, you're you're on the accounting path, which is great. I mean, that's that's just usually how we set ourselves up, talking to people and expanding our minds.
00:03:49
Speaker
So you come into the profession, you start working in public accounting. Did you jump into tax right away? Were you one of these generalists? Were you in accounting auditing? where Where were you in that kind in that area? Yeah.
00:04:01
Speaker
So I'll speak straight, which is one of Aprio's fundamentals. is In other words, I'm going to be honest and tell you, got not great grades as and and as an undergrad, truly.
00:04:13
Speaker
However, I did pass the CPA the first try, which is
Transition to Tax Specialization
00:04:17
Speaker
probably the only reason I got a job. I got a job at a really small firm, kind of like ROI size, right? It was this about an eight person firm.
00:04:25
Speaker
And I had to do everything there. They did audit. So I did audit. I did tax. I did accounting. I did payroll. I did everything. And honestly, i thought I was going to go into audit because I loved audit when I was in college. That was my best section of the CPA.
00:04:42
Speaker
I hated auditing. It was awful. People felt like I was looking over their shoulder. So I went back to get a master's in tax. And and that's kind of what where things really clicked for me was was when I went back to get a master's. Because I started as a generalist doing a little bit of everything.
00:05:05
Speaker
And quite honestly, those first two years, kind of learned nothing. I mean, I got a good base of audit, gap, accounting generally, but tax, not so much.
00:05:18
Speaker
Yeah, no, I think that's, I mean, it makes you very well-rounded when you get a baseline of everything in accounting. Because, I mean, I think sometimes people think like, how can I be a tax person if I can't read a set of financials or understand how the financials are actually made up of, right? Because, you know, there's one thing to slap numbers on a tax return. There's another thing to actually understand what is actually happening there with the client. And I think from a tax standpoint, it it makes us a lot better when we understand the bigger picture, right?
00:05:47
Speaker
I will tell you that by having that experience, you're right. I wholeheartedly believe that I am much more well-rounded. I look at holistically, I can look at a client and I understand the business, right? It's not just doing tax. So, you know, back in the day, traditional historical accounting firms, you would do a little bit of everything at the smaller firms, big firms, you might go directly into one. However, I know at some big firms, if you wanted tax, they started you an audit and then you moved over at to tax back. And this is old I'm older. So that's old school, old, old school. Right. Right. I do think that the there is ah something to be said for doing understanding the accounting side of what our clients go through when you're a tax advisor.
00:06:38
Speaker
Yeah, no, I agree 100%. And it makes, we see that with staff, you know, that how they've come up and and where they can grow. so right. When did you realize tax isn't really about math and somewhere along the way, it's more about judgment and pattern recognition with our clients?
The Nature of Tax Work: Judgment and Skills
00:06:54
Speaker
So it really, i would say during my master's program, when I went back to get my MST at University of Illinois, um I was working for McGladry and Pullen back then. That's what they were called. now it's an RSM. But I was fortunate enough to get a job working there.
00:07:12
Speaker
And it was very helpful to understand. be going to get a master's degree, but at the same time, being able to apply what I'm learning day to day, you know, at the same time. So I think there's something to be said, getting a master's and working. I think that connection was much easier. And I don't know if that's really what it was, or if it was Professor Tom Sternberg, who was probably one of the most influential people in my technical career. skills, ah getting to where they are today in my background. And he was my MST program, ah main professor for purposes of corporate partnership, individual, general tax, tax research.
00:07:55
Speaker
You know, he did a lot of those types of classes. And so really, I would say that probably the mid 90s is where I became where it clicked. Right. Ninety four to ninety six. That's probably the time frame.
00:08:08
Speaker
Right. That's great. That's great. I think there's, you know, that sometimes people think tax is all about just numbers and that's all we do. But the reality is, um especially, it's we we spend very little on the numbers themselves. We focus more on theory and law and and practice and and understanding how this plays into planning for people, right?
00:08:31
Speaker
yeahp yeah Now you've you've worked ah for a small firm, you've worked for a very large firm, firms along the way, and and you know you've dealt with middle market focus, closely held businesses.
00:08:42
Speaker
Looking back, what were some of the key inflection points that shaped how you practice today here at Aprium? So again, um i hate to say it, but probably everything goes back to the master. So during, while working at McGlager and Pullen, would say that was probably one inflection point ah where things can finally
Key Career Moments and Mentorship
00:09:07
Speaker
clicked. Right.
00:09:08
Speaker
But then I immediately started working at Arthur Anderson ah right after I got my master's. And I will tell you, the people that I was in their international tax department, the managers really took the time to train us and they kind of drilled into us.
00:09:25
Speaker
code, regs, how to do research. Now, I learned how to do research in a master's program, but until you're actually doing it and you're analyzing, for instance, the tax levy by Peru, is it a creditable tax? And you have to do research and write up a memo and then you have somebody you know critique it. I mean, it was really great experience. So I'll I'll credit Anderson. You asked about an inflection point.
00:09:50
Speaker
Anderson was definitely one of those points. and Granted, I didn't stay there too long, but I think um it it it was a point in my career where I realized I loved tax and not liked, loved tax. I'm one of those odd people that enjoy what I do. I mean, to me, retirement just means working less doesn't mean I stop what I'm doing because I love what I'm doing. Right.
00:10:16
Speaker
um But I think ed Anderson, that's when I really it things took off from there. So that's great. And what do you think that the big firm experience taught you that you still rely on today in your daily activity?
00:10:32
Speaker
So. You know, a lot of us, we use AI. We use all kinds of research tools. I mean, some people use what our or clients use, right? Google, right? Well, Google says this, and then people tell me, they give me clips of their research, right? Come on, right?
00:10:50
Speaker
What I've learned... ah starting working for at the time it was big eight, right? um Firms is you have to, you start with the code, then you go down to the regs, right? Now you also can't forget about court cases. You have to know the hierarchy there. If you have a Supreme Court case, you kind of have to follow it likely, right? Unless the law changes, right? So there are things that I learned working at that firm that I didn't really get when I was at McLaughlin. Now, granted, I was in the Champaign office initially. And so it was central Illinois, the complexity of the clients it was more partnership focused down there than the the larger companies and businesses that they work on. um But the other thing I learned from the big firms was i i call it the dark side gap, right? mean, I learned true gap because I was working on some large public companies working at Arthur Anderson and I'd have to do a tax provision that would take two weeks to prove, right? It wasn't an easy project. And so it was an interesting time in my career
00:11:59
Speaker
to really gain some additional knowledge. But what it does is it... So you asked, what what are what do I still rely on? The how to think.
Importance of Tax Code and Regulations
00:12:08
Speaker
that's That's what I really got out of all of it is how to think, how to really truly analyze is something real or is did somebody make this up? Did somebody blog something and my AI is now telling me something wrong? right I mean, lot of people rely on things too much and we have to still fact check.
00:12:28
Speaker
right I mean, there's still value added with what we do. so Yeah, no that's that's that's great. Thanks for sharing that. I think there's there's so much to that, that um you know being able to think and and not just you know with AI today, it's easy to rely on what it's spitting out and not focused on the thinking aspect of it. It's supposed to make our lives easier.
00:12:50
Speaker
easier and and free us up. But sometimes, you know, if we're not taught it properly, we could just rely on it too much, right? Well, especially if you ask the wrong if you ask a question the wrong way, it's answering something probably correctly based on how you asked it, right? And so you still have to look at the underlying assumptions that it's making.
00:13:12
Speaker
So, and then you, you, i know you're a fantastic teacher. I know I've seen you speak all over the place. And when did you realize that you enjoy teaching and explaining tax as much as practicing in it? it It's funny. So I,
00:13:27
Speaker
You know, or i i I've been coaching forever, right? But teaching, i didn't do i didn't start until 2008. Tom Sternberg, that same professor from my MST, again, I owe so much to him. and i have to give him a shout out. He's still at U of I teaching. He actually taught my son U of I. That's how old he is. But anyway, um Tom asked me in 2008 to teach at the AICPA's, it was called the National Tax Education Program. in Champaign. And there was a professor that had an emergency, calls me up, said, hey, Mark, it's Tom. ah What are you doing next week? yes
00:14:06
Speaker
I don't know. so Why? What's going on? He said, well, can you come down to Champaign and step in for a professor who can't teach? okay, what do you need me to do? He's like, well, you don't have to do anything. You know enough. You just show up. It'll be a breakout session. it won't be too difficult.
00:14:23
Speaker
Luckily, i still prepared, right? I looked at my client list because it was going to be S-Corps, Partnerships, and C-Corps. It was business only. And so I went through my client list, made some, I looked at quirky things that had come up. Obviously, I'm not going to talk about the client names, but I could talk about client situations. So I'd have real world stories. right So i was a I was a rookie. I'm sure I was green. i I was very nervous getting up in front of people. It's not easy. And to be fair, i technically wasn't wasn't standing. I was sitting. so this
00:14:56
Speaker
for this particular one, And I really liked it. The people, it was engaging to be able to get the students in the room. And the students, by the way, weren't students from University of Illinois. It was tax professionals. It was CPAs around the country. Because what this program used to be, it doesn't exist anymore.
00:15:15
Speaker
You would send your so your accountants different levels to different weeks, and they would go to get 40 hours of CPE and stay in Champaign for a full week. And so I was teaching week two, and I did three days of this business tax stuff, and it was fun.
00:15:31
Speaker
And to be able to get the engagement and see how they could connect and think about their own clients and then the back and forth. It was really, really fun. So that's when I really liked it. And then when they asked me back a second year, that's how I knew it I did okay.
00:15:49
Speaker
But I knew I could do better. But what I will tell you is, although enjoy teaching and just ah as an example, great athletes don't always make the best coaches. Right.
00:16:00
Speaker
Right. Great technician may not be a good teacher. Right. And so you have to hone skills and you can always improve. I will tell you, working with Vern Hoven and Western CPE for a couple of years,
00:16:15
Speaker
ah Vern spent the time to teach me how to perform, we'll call it, which really was public speaking. And that was a completely different way of thinking about what we were doing. Right. And it was more engaging. It taught you how to look in someone's eye. People don't do that as often as they should. um But as a speaker, i was able to refine skills, get a little better, started my own CPE company for a couple years. But then I've been with tax speaker ever since. And the people there, I always learn from. That's the one thing. As a teacher, you're still learning. It never stops. Just like as a tax professional, you and I.
00:16:55
Speaker
we're We're always learning. You can't know everything. The other thing, and this is true, is when you do public speaking, there's always someone smarter than you in the audience. And you have to understand that.
00:17:06
Speaker
And you're not expected to know everything. You just have to be professional about how you kind of pivot or ah say you don't know something. And i learned that. And it took a while. It was difficult. i used to When I started out, I would make up something saying, I think this is what the answer is, right? Right.
00:17:25
Speaker
Now, if I was wrong, I had no way to get back to people. So now I've learned if I'm going to do that, I'll say, you know what? If you give me your email, I'll follow up and let you know if that's the right answer.
Passion for Teaching and Continuous Learning
00:17:36
Speaker
And and I do that.
00:17:37
Speaker
And that's important because you can't know everything. But yeah, teaching... It's so much fun. And honestly, Mark, you you'd teach as well. I mean, whether you're teaching publicly or it's us teaching our clients, that's what we do every single day.
00:17:53
Speaker
Right. So it's fun. It's the same thing, whether I'm doing it front with my clients or I'm doing it with other CPAs nationally. so That's awesome. yeah now that's That's great. And I mean, some great insight into that. I mean, the fact that you, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, I think when you speak, you have to realize you're definitely not the smartest person in the room. And there's someone that will always know more, but it's it's how you present the material and then, you know, following back up with, hey, let me get your email contact information.
00:18:22
Speaker
We can talk further about this, which is great. Which is what we would do with our clients, right? i mean, you have to. You have to fact check. I mean, if it's an area, if you've done it already and you know the answer, great. Give them the answer. But if you're not sure, you might want to go back and check to be sure. And there's many times, i was again, speaking straight, I have said the wrong thing. And I had to come back and say, hey, that answer I told you, it's actually...
00:18:50
Speaker
completely wrong. Here's the right answer. And then coach them, you know, how to do things, whatever the case may be. Yeah. No, it's so true. So true. And it's sometimes as professionals, we want to get we want to just be the answer person and be like, client calls. You're like, oh yeah, you could do that. And then you haven't thought through it. But again, it's okay to say,
00:19:11
Speaker
Hey, I need to take a look at this. Let me get back to you. Either way, the client just says, Hey, you, you, you know, I appreciate you. I trust you. i appreciate your insight. And you know, if as long as you get back to them in a timely manner or set the expectation, it's all good. Yeah.
00:19:25
Speaker
Agreed. Now, if you could go back and talk about your younger self, what part of tax would you tell Mark to take more seriously sooner or advice?
00:19:37
Speaker
I guess the advice I would have given to myself is i know we're supposed to get 40 hours of CPE every year. Do more. Do more. Learn it quicker.
00:19:47
Speaker
um You can't know everything, but let's say you I don't know, wherever you're working, if you're working and you're working flow throughs, that's going to be your focus or C-Corps or individuals or learn everything you can about it.
00:20:04
Speaker
You don't have to know it all and remember it all, but just have seen it. you know Do more CPE. Just until it clicks. Because when you see it and do it, it comes back to me getting my master's, right?
00:20:17
Speaker
When you see it and you're learning it and you're doing it at the same time, I think you can put two and two together. And you're like, oh, that's what they meant. Right. The other thing, too, is follow legislation, understand how laws are made, what's real, what's not. There's a lot of people saying things and you hear, oh, this bill is introduced. You think, oh, and back in the day, early Mark thought this bill is going through. This is going to be a new law. No, no, but bills are introduced every day, right? And so I was a little naive when I was first starting out on that kind of thing. But as it gets passed by the House, see what happens in the Senate, right? And the reality is, even with the most recent bill, there were some major changes that occurred going from one bill to the next and then in reconciliation. So I would say the CPE and learning how laws are made
00:21:16
Speaker
would have been two key things to get a little bit more technical. But when it comes to client service, I would say public speaking, like speech comm classes and business writing.
00:21:28
Speaker
Oh, my gosh, that is so important. And schools generally don't place enough emphasis on that or historically had it.
00:21:39
Speaker
um I'll also tell you, given the use of technology and AI, think that's going to be where people's focus need to be. ah So a younger me today would be different than a younger me 30 years ago, right?
00:21:56
Speaker
That's good. I love that. I mean, so much. i mean, there's a lot of nuggets there. And I think, you know if you're listening to this right now, I mean, Mark's been through, he's seen it all. And I think those are some great takeaways, but just the fact that, you know, 40 hours CPE just is what we need to maintain our license, right? But get more.
00:22:15
Speaker
Keep learning, keep doing it daily. And it's like I tell staff all the time. It's just it just just takes all you got to is read a little bit every day. And over a period of time, you start to realize how much knowledge you're accumulating. Right.
00:22:28
Speaker
So it's it it's just all about that. Absolutely. And there's so many services you can subscribe to to get daily news. Right. I mean, the big four have stuff that I get stuff from. So you can still get it from them, right? Within Aprio, we're fortunate. We've got a lot of research tools. But no matter where you're at, there are some free research tools you can access that are, we'll call it, ah relatively, um what's the word? yeah You can have confidence in, right, ah that that the material that you're reading is sound.
00:22:59
Speaker
Just be careful. is Don't rely on things where it's someone's opinion and it's not law. That's all. So in 2004, I think you co-founded ah ROI Business Services, which was a huge leap for
Starting ROI Business Services
00:23:15
Speaker
you, right? So what made you decide to go and build your own firm at that point in your career?
00:23:20
Speaker
All right. So back in the day, um i had ah had already had two kids. So I had my son was born in 98. My daughter was born in 2000.
00:23:33
Speaker
So with Joey and Jess at home and Joey was starting to get into soccer, I wanted to coach him. And the firm I was working at at the time I just couldn't see any partner ever being able to coach their kid after hours. It just, it wasn't practical. Now, times have changed. So I want to clarify what what will happen then It's a different firm now, right? The firm that I was at. So I just want to clarify that.
00:24:02
Speaker
That being said, i was unhappy with some um issues going on. So in our world, our license to practice is everything, right? And happened to be at a firm where there are some people on the gap side that were doing things that I wasn't comfortable with.
00:24:20
Speaker
So for me to want to be a partner there, it kind of... Initially, I went there thinking I was going to be, but then After I found out what was going on, I didn't feel comfortable that I could actually want to be a partner there. So that was so between that and wanting to coach my kids in park district soccer, there's no I was going to stay there. So I had an opportunity. i was very fortunate. I will tell you, Mark, honestly, I feel like I won the lottery so many areas of my life. I've been very fortunate from getting into the master's program, getting through the masters, working at Anderson, working at McAladry. I mean, all of the things that have happened over my career, very, very lucky.
00:25:07
Speaker
But starting my own firm, i actually had an opportunity to become a tax director at a company who they allowed me to start ROI business services at the same time i was tax director. They said, you only have to work here 40 hours a week. What you do after hours, we don't care.
00:25:25
Speaker
So Mike Sutcliffe and I started business. back in 2004. And four and um you know we grew it. It started out went in my basement. It was just me. Then i hired one employee. Then I had like four or five in my basement. And then finally in 2010, moved out of the house. So i mean, that was really the impetus for me going into it was to be able to be the parent I wanted to be ah because the demands at that firm at the time were too great.
00:25:55
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's that's great. and and And I think this is just an example. I mean, obviously, times have changed, but no matter what, we're always trying to do what's, you know, as much as we want to be successful, we always have to take care of our family or take care of ourselves. And sometimes those decisions around that. And it just shows, you know, hey, you weren't you weren't afraid to take a risk and say, hey, this is important to me and I want to figure out how to make it work, right?
00:26:18
Speaker
Yep, yep. Now, what do you think is harder? Technical tax or running a firm? or Or you kind of put them in the both same category? That's
Challenges of Running a Firm
00:26:27
Speaker
funny. So I mean, technical, I would say running a firm.
00:26:36
Speaker
I did it for 18 years. And while starting a firm was very, very difficult. And but running it is also very it's a balance because now you've got people that are working with you. Right. You've got your clients that you're trying to try. It's balance. Right. At the same time, i i coached. I've coached every year since.
00:26:59
Speaker
1985, I've coached soccer since 1985, except for one. So that's something I value, right? I still coach today. So having my own firm and the demands that are required, it's it was a lot. Don't get me wrong. There were nights that I didn't sleep.
00:27:19
Speaker
um And I look at what happened after, you know because I went from my own firm, ah ROI, into KRD. right And luckily, part of the reason for me to merge was they had John Siegel running the firm.
00:27:33
Speaker
That was great. I didn't have to be the person running the firm. But the reality was I was still in management. So I still kind of I wasn't running the firm at a 30,000 foot level. And I was able to, let's say, offload some of those responsibilities. um And here at Aprio, now we have Richard Kopelman running the firm, right? And so it's nice to have people that will do that and are willing to do it. And by the way, what Richard has to deal with,
00:28:02
Speaker
and What I did pales in comparison to what Richard deals with. I can't can't even imagine for a firm our size being the CEO. But that being said, whether you're the CEO of a small firm, mid-sized firm, large firm, it's a lot of work. And unless you've actually done it, i don't think you really understand what all is involved in running a firm and the administrative task and the the the nights thinking about your people and making sure that they're happy and you can help them succeed and do what it takes. Right. And and and so is it's just it's different.
00:28:41
Speaker
um So technical, I think you can gain Over time, you can become more technical if you put the effort in, but running a firm, I don't think everybody can run a firm, just like not everybody can coach a team, right?
00:28:56
Speaker
That's how I look at it. So I do think and just about anybody can learn technical tax. if they put the effort in. So like I would say running a firm. A long-winded answer. Sorry that. Oh, that's great. I love it. I love it. And and now, you know, ah from KRD and you guys merged into Aprio, tell me why is Aprio the next, the best chapter for you? and tell me tell me what what makes you excited to go to work.
00:29:21
Speaker
At Aprio, you mean? Yeah. So I would say opportunity is probably the big thing. Opportunity for our people.
00:29:31
Speaker
They have a lot more ability. We have people who have shifted their focus, who now can have a focus if they choose in a particular area, like manufacturing distribution or real estate, right? They have that ability. Whereas the smaller the firm, you're kind of ah a hybrid. You do a little bit of everything.
00:29:51
Speaker
Right. We also have people that have switched from one discipline audit to tax. That can happen, too. How about that? At a small firm, you kind of get stuck doing what you're doing.
00:30:04
Speaker
little more difficult to switch because the training process. the ability to train someone in something different may not be as deep,
Benefits of Working at Aprio
00:30:12
Speaker
right? And and and allow them that opportunity. So ah for our people and also for them to be able to make more money and succeed both financially, professionally, and personally. So I would tell you for me that one of the biggest things is ah the balance that we have here.
00:30:32
Speaker
When I had ah ROI, if you think about the reason why I left, right, was to be able to coach my kid. Well, if that's something that was that big of a value to me, i would only go to a firm that has that similar value. Does make sense? So when when I merged from roi to KRD, John told me all about KRD when he asked me about, well, tell me about ah ROI. um Literally, the words out of my mouth and he could tell you, same. I'm like, I don't even know what to say. you know
00:31:04
Speaker
It's like we were one and that we were just much smaller and we didn't do like the gap side. right That was really the main difference. All the partners at Aprio, how they truly do care. it is the same place.
00:31:17
Speaker
okay and And it's difficult to see when you're merging in because mergers are always difficult. But the people side of it, that that's probably the number one. Number two are clients.
00:31:30
Speaker
We used to have to outsource so much. In fact, one of the reasons we're here Aprio is because we were outsourcing already to Aprio, our valuation work, our R&D studies, cost seg studies. Now, all these things were being done by Aprio.
00:31:45
Speaker
Now, we are Aprio. So, it's all under one roof. And our clients kind of like that. We do these multiple services for them. And we can help them in ways that aren't even accounting related. Like we do you know ERP consulting and implementations and manufacturing consulting. and So from our client standpoint,
00:32:05
Speaker
I look at it as we can help our clients more than we ever could. And if it all to me personally, it comes back to i wanted to be a doctor. Why? To help people and save lives, right? Well, now i'm not necessarily saving lives, saving money, I guess, potentially, right? of Good tax planning.
00:32:23
Speaker
But I'm helping people and I can help them so much more. And to me, that just makes me feel good. That's great. I appreciate it. And kind of tails into my next question. A lot of people in this profession, just they don't call you Mark. They don't call you Mirsky. They just call you coach.
The 'Coach' Nickname and Professional Identity
00:32:40
Speaker
Where did that nickname come from and how did it evolve? So I wasn't kidding. I literally, I was a sophomore and high school when I started coaching. um My Jim Blackman was my freshman soccer coach. and he asked me, he called me Maersk. He goes, hey Maersk, you want to help me coach the freshman girls?
00:33:01
Speaker
I was a sophomore boy at the time. I'm like, okay, sounds good to me. I didn't know what I was doing. And back then, they didn't call you a manager. you were My title was assistant coach. This is back in the mid-80s, right? Back in the day.
00:33:14
Speaker
But ever since then, I've been coaching. And even ah in college, I coached. I was a volunteer coach when I was in a fraternity. And me and another fraternity brother, Mike Lingertat, we coached for Champaign Park District. And it was awesome. And so all of the kids call you coach, right? All of the parents say, hey, coach, I got a question. They didn't call me Coach Mursky. They just say, hey, coach. Right. So that it started kind of with soccer. But then it was solidified in the business world during COVID.
00:33:48
Speaker
ah During COVID, we all went remote, right? We're all on Zoom, ah working from home. At that time, i was actually the assistant women's soccer coach for Aurora University. Shannon Sitch, another great coach, coached with her. Shannon asked me to run a technical session. And I'm thinking to myself, how do you do a technical session? Like we're on Zoom, right? And so what I did was I had my phone on the floor. I had a Zoom up. And you know how you type in your name in Zoom, right? And it said coach. And so I just said coach. That's all it said was coach. And because I i hadn't used Zoom before. And so i just put my name in as coach.
00:34:29
Speaker
Well, I did the session during the day. And then later that afternoon, i had a call with clients, right? Well, I didn't change my name. It was still coach. And so people started joking around about coach, coach, coach. And so they would say that I was in some networking groups.
00:34:45
Speaker
They started calling me coach. And so because on Zoom, i put my name as coach, it's stuck in the business world. And then I took up when I was teaching. I've always now I always now introduced myself as Coach Mursky.
00:35:00
Speaker
um And I say some people call me Mark and there's other things people call me, but I can't say those. Yeah. professional setting. But the reality is i am coach Mursky. It's who I am. It's what I do. To be honest, Mark, you're you're a great coach yourself. I mean, we we both are. It's what we do with our clients. We coach our clients.
00:35:18
Speaker
I coach cpa CPAs around the country when I'm teaching, but I also coach soccer. So it started with soccer, but then trickled into the rest of my ah two other professions that I'd say I do.
00:35:32
Speaker
That's awesome. No, I love that. And how does that coaching mindset really change not only what you're teaching people you work with, but also that client relationship? I mean, when you come from that angle of being a coach.
Coaching Mindset in Client Advising
00:35:45
Speaker
Well, you know Clients really expect us to add value. It doesn't matter whether it's a small client or a large client. It doesn't matter. we should be providing, we'll say, a level level of service. right it should be a Well, you can choose what you want to provide for service as a firm.
00:36:07
Speaker
Every firm is different. Right? So I would say if you're going to have a coaching mindset, you're you're always thinking about the client. As an example, we just had a new tax bill come out, right?
00:36:17
Speaker
it It was a little bill, right? But it's something that our clients really were interested in. And so maybe having a webinar because all clients needed to know about it makes sense. So always thinking about the client. When a new law comes out or a court case that impacts them, think about how does that help them?
00:36:36
Speaker
you know Or maybe like now ah here at Apri, we have a tariff group, right? Things are going on with with with respect to tariffs. I can call Jay and say, hey, we have a client who's importing from China. Would you mind talking with them about how maybe they could... And so you hear things in the news And now you can always think about your client and how you can help them. And that's just the tax side. But the reality is it goes beyond tax. Well, I'm a tax professional and so are you.
00:37:07
Speaker
We help them make money, right? That's the thing. you You come to me as a potential client and say, hey, I don't want to pay tax. My immediate response will be, then don't make money.
00:37:18
Speaker
yeah Don't think about not paying tax. Think about making more money after tax. That's the key. That's what they're really saying. They just say it differently, right? And so we have to coach them a little bit to sometimes change their mindset.
00:37:34
Speaker
So a good coaching mindset is helping your client get to where they want to be and holding them accountable when they need to be held accountable, right? And because that happens too.
00:37:48
Speaker
What will happen is a client will give us their long-term goal, which is by far the number one reason I love what I do is helping people achieve their goals. But if they have a goal in mind, and then all of a sudden they do something that's totally counter to what they've told you that is really important to them, you got to ask the question, hey, you do you remember you told me that Is that really what you want to do? Because it really does. Well, you know what? Maybe they pivoted.
00:38:15
Speaker
Maybe that's changed. That's OK. Things change. But I think as a good coach, you're going to hold them accountable. That's good. i love that. So let's shift into this little bit more technical side here um and talk about flow throughs and more specifically partnerships.
00:38:31
Speaker
You know, partnerships remain one of the more complex and misunderstood areas of tax um that at least we continue to see. But in your opinion, why do partnerships continue to trip up, trip all of us up, even when we're experienced advisors along the way? What do you think that is?
Complexity of Partnerships and Education Needs
00:38:48
Speaker
ah one word education by far, by far education. um You know, As an undergrad, when you go through undergrad, maybe you get two classes, right? Maybe. They can't talk about technical tax, really. i mean, you're learning some basic concepts. What is income? What is in a a deduction? What's a credit? You're not learning technical stuff. In a master's program, I do think that's where you can gain a lot of the good technical background, right?
00:39:21
Speaker
But how many people get a master's, right? i mean, in our world, not many people are doing that. fact, somebody may have just said, you know what? I've been, i don't know, I'll make up a ah a scenario. i'm I've been doing this profession, whatever if this is, for a long time. i don't want to do it anymore. I'm going to prepare taxes. And they start preparing taxes because anybody can potentially do that, right?
00:39:46
Speaker
Doesn't mean they're good at what they do. and And if they don't have that technical background, they're not going to get it. The other thing, too, is unlike corporations, which I would say are a little more rigid and a little bit more structured with how they work When you have flexibility, complexity, unfortunately, comes with that.
00:40:11
Speaker
And that's what partnerships are. They're very flexible. And to be honest, partnerships are all about economics than they are tax. And that's why I love them. That's how we get deals done is using partnerships. You know, I joke around that, you know, we're from Chicago.
00:40:28
Speaker
I always, when I'm teaching, I'll say, in Chicago, our partnerships keep two sets of books. Do yours, right? and And people laugh and they're like, oh yeah, you're from Chicago. You keep two sets. actually every partnership does, but people don't understand that.
00:40:43
Speaker
So again, comes back to education. And do you think, you know, I mean, a lot of people think they're experts in partnerships because they understand how a partnership return looks and they've done them their entire career. But where does that overconfidence hurt advisors with partnerships as far as their knowledge and what they don't know?
00:41:03
Speaker
Well, I mean, if you're overconfident, I think you're going to do things without thinking through it. You don't know what you don't know. That's probably the best way to say it So,
00:41:16
Speaker
Unfortunately, if you believe you know it all already, well, then you're not going to learn, right? Because you already know it. You're not going to go to CPE to try to understand and get the technical concepts down.
00:41:29
Speaker
You think you know everything. I will tell you, I've been in it for how long? 33 years, approximately? I still don't know everything. I'm still learning. We all are. You have to.
00:41:42
Speaker
So if you're overconfident, I think you you you will likely catch your trip yourself up by making some mistakes. there It's going to happen. Whether it's an improper allocation, meaning maybe you're not following the provisions in the operating agreement, right? That could happen.
Partnership Compliance and Red Flags
00:42:02
Speaker
Maybe, although the operating agreement says one thing,
00:42:06
Speaker
Tax law says something that makes you do things a little different than what the operating agreement says, because that can happen too. So I would say smaller partnerships sometimes are where we see more mistakes. Why? Because of the overconfidence. People think it's low risk. There's nothing here. It's simple, straight up percentage interests, right? and And they think it's a simple part. They're not always. They can be. Don't get me wrong.
00:42:34
Speaker
And many of ours our our money money of ours are simple partnerships, but they aren't always. No, that's very good advice there.
00:42:44
Speaker
When you step into an existing partnership client, or you bring one on, or or you just, someone's asking you questions on it, what are the first red flags you look for when it comes to the compliance aspect of partnerships?
00:42:58
Speaker
Well, first thing I'll ask is, can I see a copy of the operating agreement? If they say we don't have one, um what they don't know is they actually do because this it's kind of is the state will provide one for them, meaning almost every partnership is an LLC and every state has a sta statute that governs LLCs. That is your operating agreement unless you have a written one, right? People don't understand that.
00:43:23
Speaker
So and when I teach, I always say, hey, do all of your clients have a partnership agreement? Show hands. Nobody raises their hand. Right. Like, OK, well, do you know what your state's how many people here know what your state statute says? Nobody raises their hand. Right. So which means they don't really understand.
00:43:39
Speaker
What governs that agreement? and And what you may not know is there some real issues with liability potentially under state law. There could be who can bind the company, right? Is it manager managed or member managed? State law might have a default operating agreement can change it. And so those things may impact how we as tax professionals are supposed to do allocations or allocations of debt.
00:44:08
Speaker
Right. But ah a red flag, I would say, is when you see one partner has a negative capital tax capital account on a K-1 and somebody else has a positive. Doesn't mean it's wrong.
00:44:20
Speaker
It's just a red flag. okay and But I will tell you, when I dig in nine times out of 10, it is wrong. right That's what I found. So the other thing too is when you ask for either your client or the prior accountants,
00:44:37
Speaker
Can I have a copy of the 704B books? The answer we usually get is, what's that? right Right. And so nobody knows. So that too could be a flag, depending on the facts. It could be a simple straight up deal, right?
00:44:52
Speaker
So not every partnership is complex. They can be, but they aren't. Another flag would be when the sum of the tax capital doesn't agree to schedule L and the prior accountant has no idea what the differences are or why.
00:45:08
Speaker
One other thing we look I always look for is, did they properly elect out of the CPAR regime, right? do they The partnership audit rules, have they done that? or are they now a BBA partnership when they in fact don't need to be? Because that could cause other issues, right? but As you find mistakes, well, that was a BBA partnership. Now you got to treat it as such.
00:45:31
Speaker
Right. So those those are things that I see on a regular basis. But allocations definitely could be incorrect when somebody doesn't have an operating agreement and they're not maintaining seven zero four b capital.
00:45:47
Speaker
Oh, that's so good. and And obviously, right. I mean, sometimes that means someone either has income overstated or understated potentially. That's right. And that yeah doesn't make people happy. so Exactly. I know. And in the ones who have it understated are are ecstatic, right? However, I'll give you an example. I had a client...
00:46:05
Speaker
um It was another CPA that asked me to do some consulting for them on a partnership issue. And I saw one partner was really, really positive. The other three were negative.
00:46:18
Speaker
And it was a franchise. And dad had put the money in. The kids put nothing in. The three kids had negative capital. Dad had a huge positive capital account.
00:46:29
Speaker
You read the operating agreement. It says no member is required to restore our capital deficit capital. And it said they had a qualified income offset provision, which means nobody should have been negative, right right? Now, the reality is we can fix that and do corrective allocations. There's things you can do potentially in a partnership.
00:46:52
Speaker
but as long as the operating agreement allows it. But in that circumstance, we were going to have to allocate a lot of income to people who shouldn't have taken losses.
00:47:05
Speaker
The problem is if people aren't properly tracking basis and they do their own 1040s, right? Maybe they overrode the software and they took these losses and they shouldn't have. And now you're going to give them income, which shouldn't have a tax effect, but would once you do.
00:47:23
Speaker
100% correct. And that's, these are the things that, you know, again, it starts with learning and starts with keep educating yourself and and just understanding what's actually happening besides putting numbers on a tax return.
00:47:35
Speaker
Absolutely. And, you know, one of the things I always run into with partnerships besides, and i mean, obviously the start with the operating agreement is capital accounts and how misunderstood or I would say ignored they are when I pick up a tax return, you know, you know, the idea of inside and outside basis, seven zero four b Maybe should we make a 754 election? you know Speak to that. I mean, do you see that as an area that is commonly kind of a problem?
00:48:00
Speaker
I literally saw it last Friday. So i have ah we have a prospective client that we're looking at. And within the capital accounts and other income and subtractions, they had all of the temporary differences we're going through.
00:48:16
Speaker
We're supposed to put tax capital. Right. Temporary differences don't go through tax capital. right But so, yes, I do believe capital accounts are misunderstood. The one thing that concerns me is that a lot, you know, historically, now that all capital accounts are supposed to be tax basis, a lot of professionals think you can just look at the capital account and add the debt.
00:48:41
Speaker
And that's your outside basis. But the reality is that tax capital sometimes is way off base. I just gave you a one quick example, but there are so many reasons, right? I mean, 754 elections, so 743B, 734. I mean, those are things that could have an impact between inside, outside, right? And tax capital isn't supposed to have that in there. So there are things that we can, that that I guess are understood that we can spot.
00:49:12
Speaker
But if you don't dig in and look at the historical capital and understand what's in there, you may not be relying on the right
Reconciling Capital Accounts for Accurate Reporting
00:49:21
Speaker
information. Comes back to, does capital tie to Schedule L or does it not?
00:49:26
Speaker
right Because if it does, but as a hypothetical, if you have an accrual method taxpayer um and they don't have any temporary differences, in theory, the sum of all the tax capital may equal Schedule L capital.
00:49:40
Speaker
Right. I say may because there's still other things that could cause differences. So, yeah, I do think it's important. You should always, always be able to reconcile the sum of the K-1 capital to schedule L. That doesn't mean it ties dollar for dollar, but you should know those differences.
00:49:59
Speaker
Exactly. And do it year to year so that if there is a specific difference when you picked up the client, that difference should continue to carry as you now do it right. Exactly. We call that prior year differences, meaning we couldn't go back far enough to find out why it's off, but we know it's off year to year. It should never change, right? Right.
00:50:19
Speaker
Yeah. yep Now, when you when you talk about flow through entities, we got partnerships and then we have an S-Corps. In your opinion, because this question comes up all the time, you know, someone someone's starting a business or or maybe they're coming into a joint venture, should, you know, take away ownership, but should we be an S-Corps, should we partnership? what do you What do you tell people typically or where is you where's your leaning expertise towards?
00:50:43
Speaker
Okay. So the reality is I'm going to give you this the stereotypical answer. It depends, right? It always does. It's true. Most professionals, including myself, have preferences.
00:50:57
Speaker
What do they prefer? What do they seem to recommend more often than not? I do find myself recommending the partnership structure more often than the S-Corp structure. The main reason people form the S-Corporation is to evade, I mean, avoid, that was intentional, self-employment tax, right? That's really why...
00:51:20
Speaker
They're forming their S corporations. Well, if they really understood partnerships, if that's a goal, we can still have the operations in a partnership. And there's lots of reasons to have that. And we can still potentially minimize some self-employment tax if that's a real goal. But people are very short-sighted. I say sometimes ah individual owners Tax professionals, they have blinders on.
00:51:47
Speaker
They're looking at the current year. They're not looking at the life of the business, the exit. Where are they headed? What do they want to be when they grow up? And I think those are all fair questions that we as tax professionals, as advisors, forget about tax professionals. As an advisor, you have to know that.
00:52:04
Speaker
What do they want to do next? What's next? Where are they headed? How are they going to exit? Are they going to transition to another family member? Are they expecting to pass it on to key people? um Are they going to sell to private equity? you know What's their exit strategy?
00:52:21
Speaker
based on where they're headed and all of the other factors that you go through, there's probably like 30 different things you talk about, that truly should determine what tax structure they go into.
00:52:35
Speaker
um But my concern is once you go into a corporate structure, to go from a corporate structure to the flexibility of a partnership, It's ah a little bit of a pain. I mean, there is a way to do it tax free using a type F reorganization, right? It might be beyond the scope of what we should be talking about here, but you can have the operating entity that's an S-corp become ultimately an operating partnership if you need it.
00:53:04
Speaker
And I'll tell you, I've got a small S-corp. I won't say what industry is it's in because there's not a lot of them. But it's a small S corp. It's about a million in gross receipts.
00:53:15
Speaker
They wanted to get two key people in as owners, and they couldn't give away shares because in a corporation, s or C, you either pay tax or you have to pay cash for the fair market value.
00:53:28
Speaker
So we talked about a lot of different options, maybe tying growth, future growth, you know, like phantom stock or something, right? None of that made sense given their fact pattern. They needed real ownership.
00:53:41
Speaker
This is during COVID. So we restructud we we restructured their business, did a type F reorganization, and now they're operating as a partnership. And the owner, I talked to her,
00:53:54
Speaker
couple weeks ago, gonna say last week, it was a couple weeks ago, and she told me, she was literally in tears, she said, you know, they love this structure. They are acting as owners, they feel like owners, they are. We gave them a profits interest.
00:54:10
Speaker
And it was a tax free way to get them some ownership. Now they're participating in the growth. They think like an owner. They act like an owner because they have true ownership.
00:54:22
Speaker
And that's very powerful. You know what? She's still stuck with an S-Corp though. Why? Because she started as an S-Corp. So that's the problem is it's not so easy to switch from S-Corp to partnership or C-Corp to partnership, right?
00:54:39
Speaker
But you can always go from partnership to corp. That's a lot simpler. That's, I mean, that's really good. And I think, you know, the idea of choice of entity and why it matters, and I know you're going to be teaching on that at the AICPA Engage Conference this year. But I mean, there's some huge benefits to not only getting it right from day one, or even if it's not right from day one, there's the flexibility to figure out how do we change it?
00:55:05
Speaker
Is there a tax impact? And does this make sense, right? Especially given the new bill, I mean, 1202, C-Corps are making a huge, tremendous ah comeback.
00:55:17
Speaker
All of our clients are asking, hey, I heard from my friend at this Vistage conference or something, should I convert to 1202? you I want to be the advisor who's proactively talking with my clients. Hey, just so you know, we thought about 1202. We're not sure this is a fit and here's why. However, let's talk about it if you would like. right And so we we're trying to be a little more proactive with that because we do know that's kind of the hot thing right now.
00:55:46
Speaker
So good. And beyond compliance, where do you see advisors really add value when it comes to flow through entities, whether it's partnership, S-corp, or even just thinking of C-corp? Like, where is that value added?
00:56:00
Speaker
Well, there's so many different ways that we can add value. Again, it comes back to what's the client's goal,
Adding Value as an Advisor
00:56:06
Speaker
right? I think by listening, um we we have ah another fundamental, listen generously, right? I think it's very important to ask those open-ended questions. Hear where your client says, always remember where they're headed.
00:56:21
Speaker
What do they want to be when they grow up? And so I think what we can add to them is when you hear it's one of those you hear that phrase when you hear so when you see something, say something. Well, for me, it's more when you hear something, say something.
00:56:37
Speaker
If you hear something that could impact your client. proactively reach out to them. Hey, did you see this? Saw this in Wall Street street Journal. saw Whatever it could, it doesn't matter what it is. Again, it's having that coaching mentality, the client-centered, client focus and all the time in thinking about your client.
00:56:56
Speaker
We can help them get to where they want to be, whatever that is. And for each client, it's different. Your exit may be different than mine, right? Which might be different than someone else's. And so we have to take that into account and respect what our clients want, but help them get there. So I think that's probably where we add the most value. Along the way,
00:57:17
Speaker
We're also adding value on an annual basis, right? Minimizing tax everywhere they should, whether it's tax structure, whether it's, you know, so if if they're multi-state or if they're inbound, and kind you know, a foreign company that owns US-based business or outbound US s business going overseas, there could be structure ah concerns. There could be transfer pricing, which comes into play in that in that world. And we can help them. We can help them with manufacturing.
00:57:45
Speaker
So many different things, like the flow of information, ah with ah not the information, but the flow of goods, how the workflow is set up, right? I don't do that, but there are people that do. And so I think for us to add value, we have to be partnered with the right team,
00:58:05
Speaker
to help our client. And you know when I was ah ROI, I had to rely on everybody else to help with so many different things because I didn't do a lot back then. Now I'm at Aprio.
00:58:16
Speaker
We can do just about everything under one roof, which is great. We still partner with whoever our clients work with. Whatever they need, we're willing to help with. But it it it's fun. It's fun. So advisors, whoever you are, whatever you have,
00:58:31
Speaker
find the people that do the things you don't do so you can serve your clients better, but always be thinking about the client. Love that. Love that. Now, is some closing wisdom. It's a quick fire rapid fire kind of work through. um What's one thing that tax software will never fix that you run into quite a bit? All right. So that's hard to say. To be fair, it doesn't deal with waterfalls and properly doing allocations. You have to yeah According to an operating agreement, it would be nice if I could upload an operating agreement and the software would just do it.
00:59:07
Speaker
Right. so I don't know that that will ever happen. That being said, i think somebody might be smart enough to fix it. So I don't know if I'm going to say there's anything software won't fix.
00:59:19
Speaker
I think currently it doesn't. That's good. That's good. What's one misconception about partnerships you wish would disappear in the industry? That most businesses should operate as an S-corp versus a partnership, unless it's real estate, right? That's what most people say. And I always joke around, the reason we don't put real estate into a partnership is because it's an appreciating asset. So then I say, do you think that business is going to appreciate? And if so, why would you put it in an S-corporation?
00:59:48
Speaker
What's the difference? Absolutely. And then what's one red flag that tells an advisor to slow down and dig deeper in whatever they're working on, you think?
01:00:00
Speaker
ah red flag that that were that tells you to slow down, i would say, getting too many notices, right? Clients are getting notices. You might want to take a look at what you're doing. You're probably moving too fast because the reality is a lot of stuff that we do for a living doesn't come up unless there's a love letter. That's what we call notices, right? Or there's an audit.
01:00:24
Speaker
That's probably that when a lot of what, when we make mistakes, that's the only time you're going to know that you actually made the mistake. So if your clients are getting a lot of notices, you might want to double check your work. Love it.
01:00:36
Speaker
And what's the most rewarding part of coaching, you know, not only your son, when when you started way back in soccer, your team in various organizations, but what's the one rewarding part of coaching that you, that really fires you up on a daily basis?
01:00:52
Speaker
helping people achieve their goals. That's an easy one. yeah I know that one. that That's not a canned answer. that's That's what I enjoy. That's who I am. That's who Aprio are as a firm. We help people achieve their goals, but we...
01:01:08
Speaker
I would tell you as a coach, it's what you do. You're no different. I mean, if you enjoy coaching, let me rephrase that because you could be doing coaching, but not enjoy it. Right. But if you're a coach that enjoys what they what they're doing and I'll tell you, I was very fortunate with all the coaches I've had over the years. Ben Barry, Vince DiNuzzo, Anthony Glorioso, Shannon.
01:01:30
Speaker
All of those coaches all had the same coaching philosophy, which is why i still coach, because I'll only coach with people that have a similar coaching philosophy.
01:01:41
Speaker
Oh, I love it. I love it that is That is gold right there. Thank you for sharing that. So Mark, this has been a fantastic conversation. What I appreciate most is both professionally and personally, it's how you approach approach tax, not just as a technical exercise, but really as a responsibility, a responsibility to think ahead, to to ask better questions and to coach clients and advisors towards better outcomes. And you demonstrate that every single day of your life. So thank you for being here today.
01:02:10
Speaker
Thank you for having me. Happy to be here. Appreciate it. You bet. And for our listeners, if partnerships or flow through entities are part of your client base, and for most of you, I would assume they are, this is an area where depth matters and curiosity matters. And like Mark said, mindset matters, right?
01:02:26
Speaker
So again, Mark, thank you for not just joining us today and thank you for your insights, but for the example you set for our profession. It's because of people like you that we have a profession that continues to grow and people continue to get better. I'm grateful for our friendship, for our mentorship, and for many conversations that have helped shape how I think about tax and advisory work and how coaching and speaking and really just doing this work comes together.
01:02:52
Speaker
And to everyone listening, thank you for joining us now on Tax News Now. We'll see you next time.