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BAP Ep. 5 - The Advisor Leap Part 3: Compliance Mindset vs. Advisory Judgment with Heather Esposito
150 Plays5 days ago
Heather Esposito, founder of Movora Strategies, joins us as part of a five-part series to explain why accountants are wired for a “compliance mindset”—certainty, patterns, fast answers—and why today’s uncertainty demands an “advisory mindset” rooted in curiosity, presence, and better questions. She and host Chris Mitchell explore how identity, stress, and workplace rewards keep us stuck, and how human “power skills” like psychological safety and brain-friendly communication will differentiate professionals in the age of AI. Practical, candid, and timely—this episode will change how you show up with clients.
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Transcript
Introduction to Compliance Mindset
00:00:02
Speaker
Music
00:00:09
Speaker
My name is Chris Mitchell and welcome to another episode of Becker Accounting Podcast. And I am here today again with Heather Esposito. She is the founder of Movara Strategies, and she's got a lot of interesting information. She's talked with us in the past. We've talked a little bit about ai and being more sensitive and how to work with our clients and so forth and so on. And we're going to spend some time talking about the compliance mindset today.
Heather Esposito's Background
00:00:35
Speaker
So welcome, Heather. Welcome back.
00:00:37
Speaker
Please share with the audience who you are and what you know. I'm telling you right now, she's smart. I'm telling you guys right now, she knows what she's talking about. I trust her, but please share more. Thanks, Chris. It's great to be back.
00:00:49
Speaker
oh A little bit about me. I have been in the talent and learning and development space for almost 30 years now. I have served as the director of learning and development and colleague engagement at ah one of our top accounting firms.
00:01:03
Speaker
And I am a professional coach. That's something where I spend a lot of time developing that skill set and helping leaders be more effective leaders. That's what I'm really passionate about.
00:01:15
Speaker
Fantastic. You know, we're going to talk about compliance mindset.
What is the Compliance Mindset?
00:01:19
Speaker
Would you just tee us up for success with it? What's a compliance mindset? Yeah. So as we talk about this today, when I think about a compliance mindset, what I'm referring to is the the work that we've been traditionally rewarded for.
00:01:36
Speaker
Following the regulation, having the right answer, knowing all the best practices, having seen all the situations and being able to tell a client confidently, this is exactly what you should do. i've done this 100 times.
00:01:50
Speaker
and That's what I'm thinking about when I talk about the compliance mindset. Heather, when I start thinking about compliance mindset and start thinking about the brain, OK, I know you have certifications and expertise in this area.
00:02:05
Speaker
What does that mean? I mean, how does the brain work? I mean, could you explain that to the audience? it So our brain is wired to look for certainty, to look for patterns. It likes things to not change very much because when it can do that, it it can operate more efficiently.
00:02:24
Speaker
So, for example, the research shows that we probably input about 13 million bits of information every second that our brain has to make sense of.
00:02:35
Speaker
And that's everything coming in from our ears, from our eyes, from our skin, from the conversations we're having. And if we had to think consciously about every single one of those things, we'd get nothing done.
00:02:50
Speaker
So one of the fascinating things about our brain is that it does look for patterns so that it can hardwire things. And a lot of information it can process in the background through our through our non-conscious part of our brain.
00:03:06
Speaker
And that's why we breathe. That's why we can do so many things. i can type on a keyboard without having to think about that. And so it rewards that compliance mindset. That compliance mindset likes to be able to fix it, likes to have the answer, likes to close the loop, likes to check the box. So it very much rewards our brain circuitry because that feels good to our brain. And our brain doesn't like to work too hard because it needs to be efficient.
00:03:35
Speaker
So when we ask it to sit with something uncertain or to say, We're like not going to have an answer yet. And we have to sit in that. Like it that's really uncomfortable for our brain. And it usually tries to steer us in another
Brain's Role in Compliance
00:03:50
Speaker
direction. Like, let's just get to an answer.
00:03:52
Speaker
So it rewards that compliance mindset. And it's just hardwired into our biology. So it's hardwired. OK, I've been an accountant. I've been a consultant now for 25 years. Am I just out of luck?
00:04:06
Speaker
Because it seems like I'm really hardwired, given the profession, you know, growing up in consulting and then, you know, just learning all that I have and servicing clients. Am I unique? I mean, how do I get out of that? I mean, should I get out of that? I mean, that I don't know.
00:04:21
Speaker
No, well, first of all, you're not unique. I mean, again, as I mentioned, this is this is the way our brain was designed, was designed to hardwire as much as we can, as fast as we can. ah One quick example.
00:04:36
Speaker
Have you ever upgraded to a new computer and you start to type and all of a sudden your words like you're mistyping things because the keyboard has a slightly different configuration, or maybe the key spacing is a little bit different and you feel like, oh my gosh, I forgot how to type.
00:04:53
Speaker
Well, you didn't forget how to type. Your mind and your your um your hands were hardwired to the design of that previous keyboard. So you could type without thinking or looking for letters.
00:05:06
Speaker
And so it takes a little bit of time, a you know, a few days, a week to be able to acclimate to the new keyboard and then you're fine again. But that's that's how we're wired. So you're not you're not unique.
00:05:17
Speaker
um And luckily, our brain has something called neuroplasticity, which means it can keep forming new connections. It's why when we have. brain injuries or strokes. Sometimes people can rewire another part of their brain to take over that function if a specific part of our brain gets injured. So we can we can create new wiring, ah but it does take work. It is not easy. And so it it's not something where you just were like, okay, I'm going to make a decision. And all of a sudden, I'm going to be able to move
00:05:50
Speaker
out of what is hardwired, especially under stress. When we're under stress, our brain defaults
Transitioning to Advisory Mindset
00:05:56
Speaker
even more to our hardwiring because our thinking brain goes a little bit offline.
00:06:02
Speaker
You know, we spent some time talking about the compliance mindset. So now we're going to talk a little bit about the advisory mindset, because it seems like one is absolutely not like the other. What's the advisory mindset then?
00:06:16
Speaker
ah So that's the one we lean into when we want to be a little more curious, when we want to delay judgment. When we're sitting in circumstances, as many of our business issues and our geopolitical systems and our economic systems are today, there's a lot more uncertainty.
00:06:35
Speaker
And so as we think about developing this advisory mindset It's going to be, again, not letting completely go of the guardrails and the regulations and the standards to which we're bound, but letting go that there may always be a clear cut answer or a clear direction or a best practice that we can rely on.
00:06:58
Speaker
think we're seeing more and more that that's just not going to serve us. And if our value and worth comes from that, we're going to be at a disadvantage moving forward.
00:07:09
Speaker
So when I'm showing over clients, OK, because, you know, Chris has his compliance mindset and now I've got to know go in between and have the advisory mindset. What does that look like when I'm having a conversation? I know you've done you know CPA work in the past. Yes. And you have that expertise. I mean, how did you recognize the compliance mindset and then adapt and bring in some of the advisory? And what did it mean for you personally and how you would sit down and, you know, have the ebbs and the flows with the client the right way?
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah, so i'll I'll tell on myself a little bit here. In the past, I definitely had more of a compliance mindset. I have been academically gifted you know and during my life, so it was very easy for me to learn quickly.
00:07:57
Speaker
And when things would come up, I could typically learn it faster than someone else. I had a lot of ideas, ideas, Typically, I did have the quote unquote right answer. And so my whole identity had been constructed around this idea.
00:08:16
Speaker
If you can learn it faster, if you can possess more knowledge, if you can come up with answers faster than anyone else, that's what makes you valuable in this organization.
00:08:28
Speaker
And it got rewarded. i mean, I got promoted for that. I got kudos for that. Um, And I ran it started running into the limits of that. And I don't know that I realized it as early as I would have liked to. But mean, I had developed a whole, whole identity
Building Client Relationships
00:08:47
Speaker
around being the smartest person in the room, or at least one of the smartest people in the room and leveraging that gift and strength I had in ways that were serving me, but maybe not always serving those around me.
00:09:01
Speaker
So when I think about the exchange with clients, OK, and I'm talking about public accounting, I guess we could put this in any position in accounting if we're serving, you know, internal on the walls of an organization.
00:09:13
Speaker
You know, I want to be able to feel I want to be able to think outside the box when I'm working with them. I don't want to just be driven by information and trying to solve. But I need to have, you know, more compassion in the moment and be able to be patient.
00:09:28
Speaker
Is that what it looks like? Because I'm trying to figure out how far off I am because, you know, I'm always trying to figure out how to make a buck out of the whole equation. So I know this is on that path as we continue to to move forward, given these economic times. I mean, what what is that right mix and what does it look like in a delivery exercise? It doesn't have to be like that. Please don't think it and has to be like the one I presented. But what would it look like to be successfully doing it?
00:09:53
Speaker
You know, I'm i'm just curious. Yeah, I think there's some elements of what you described, but there are ways to be patient in a performative way. and mean by that, I mean, OK, like I can sit on my hands and bite my tongue and be patient and patient.
00:10:11
Speaker
Not be patient at all and not be present. Like, you know, internally, I'm just like, just how much longer do I have to wait? When can I when can I jump in here? And and that's not true patients.
00:10:21
Speaker
What I would say that it looks like is leaning more into curiosity. So the questions I ask are not meant to diagnose.
00:10:33
Speaker
They're meant to actually really elicit more information. It looks like presence and presence is different than patience.
00:10:45
Speaker
Are we at a point yet where like we're ready to rush to so to the next step? Oftentimes when we're dealing with some of the situations that we've been facing and that business owners are trying to navigate Sometimes a good result of a meeting or time spent with them is more clarity about the problem we're trying to solve, not necessarily the solution itself right now.
00:11:16
Speaker
Sometimes we need to get more information. That is the clarity that comes out of it is I don't know that I have all the things that I need to be considering versus trying to make a decision with the few pieces of information I have.
00:11:30
Speaker
If I have some time to wait, um it looks like deeper relationship and being able to sit with people and things that are uncomfortable and people feeling like they're being seen, they're being heard, their concerns are being taken into account, not just I'm here to give you an answer.
00:11:53
Speaker
So, you know, when I think about that, it looks in my in my own mind, it i would think that I want them to to like me in a different way. That's the only way I know how to put it. And maybe that's just too simple.
00:12:05
Speaker
But I think, you know, and talk going back and I'll and i'll use this. um I've been successful in the past because people want to know that you care. Okay. They want to know that you're invested in them in a different way. And it's not just for for money.
00:12:19
Speaker
Is that what it looks like? I'm trying to figure it out. I don't want to simplify it, but i absolutely want the audience to know that, hey, it's more than just doing that and, you know, and being more available in the present. It's a lot of the things that you've mentioned.
00:12:33
Speaker
And it does go deeper and you have to analyze yourself to really understand how you deliver. um But I don't want to simplify it. And if I am, please correct me now. Say, Chris, no, no, it's not that. But I think it's a hodgepodge of a lot of different things. And it's some of that included. Am I am i right or wrong?
Balancing Efficiency and Relationships
00:12:52
Speaker
It's a piece of that. And I think you bring up a really important point. And we'll get to this in one of our other episodes is around this idea of being likable and likability.
00:13:04
Speaker
And of course, we want to be likable. Nobody likes a jerk. And if we're approaching this relationship from i need to do things or I'm going to show up in a way that makes sure that you like me.
00:13:21
Speaker
You may be detracting from some of the benefit of the advisory mindset, because sometimes in that advisor role, I have to hold up a mirror to somebody about their own behavior or things they're doing that may be contributing to the situation that they don't see yet.
00:13:40
Speaker
That's would be risky to someone who's more concerned about whether you like me. And this plays out all over the place. It plays out with managers and direct reports, trying to have feedback conversations. It plays out with managing up and trying to talk to your leader about something. If you're more concerned with making sure you're liked, then you're not going to have the hard conversation. You're not going to lean in.
00:14:08
Speaker
And likability is important. Like, I mean, we want to do business with people that we enjoy spending time with. But that's again, it's not just that, but that's part of the relationship equation.
00:14:22
Speaker
And I think a lot of people confuse that sometimes with personality and you can be kind. i love Brene Brown's quote. Clear is kind.
00:14:34
Speaker
Unclear is unkind. And if we're just being nice That's not kind because we're not saying the things that need to be said. We're not having the conversations we need to have.
00:14:47
Speaker
But I can be kind to you and I can have those conversations and what I refer to as a brain friendly way and do it in a way that's not going to shut your brain down, that keeps you engaged in the conversation because we're working towards something together, not coming at it as an adversarial battle.
00:15:08
Speaker
So we're going to go through this exercise because I think this would be cool to do. Okay. We're going to transition Chris's compliance, a compliance mindset. Okay. professional, 25 years, public accounting, done consulting, delivered to clients, all different industries, helped me transition to an advisory mindset.
00:15:30
Speaker
Know how to talk to clients, um but I guess I used it in a different way because I just needed more intel so I could drive to that solution faster. Help convert me, help me transition into that mindset.
00:15:43
Speaker
I know you can't do it all today, but give me some things that help me transition. Well, how about i ask you a couple of questions first? Yeah. yeah so where, what opportunities have you seen where that mindset may have not served you the way that you hoped?
00:16:01
Speaker
You know, I think there have been times as um a consultant where I don't ask the right questions and I'm not patient enough in the moment. And I jumped to a conclusion and I think that's it. And I want the gold star.
00:16:13
Speaker
OK, and I did it too fast. I probably should have been more patient and allow things to flow better so I could get more intel and arrive at a different conclusion or a better conclusion. So if I what I heard from you there was that sometimes that was more about kind of what it did for you versus what it did for the client.
00:16:34
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, and when I think about that, too, because, you know, we're all fee driven and we're all talking about chargeable hours. And, you know am I wasting time? I want to make sure I'm efficient in the process because I only have so much time to get through it.
00:16:46
Speaker
Yeah. So that helped me, you know, kind of use that strategy or that approach ah to be successful. So so but you're saying i i can do that and balance it in a different way and still be successful in that same amount of time. I'm just trying to understand how.
00:17:02
Speaker
yeah Yeah, potentially. And in what you're talking about, that's one of the reasons why it's again, it's rewarding. And we can stay in that mindset fairly easily because quick answer, quick bill, move on next thing. And so there's some reinforcement there.
00:17:19
Speaker
ah What did you notice or what have you noticed sometimes that the impact on the client is when you jump to a conclusion or you jump to the and assumption to get the gold star?
00:17:31
Speaker
You know, so sometimes it's been good. Okay. Short term, but long term, I don't think it's as good. Does that make sense? Because sometimes when clients call you back, maybe i didn't get the call back.
00:17:44
Speaker
Maybe I saw for that and I wasn't human enough in the in the moment. for them to invite me back to the party again. So I i think short term, sometimes it worked out because it was very efficient and giving them what they wanted.
00:17:57
Speaker
But it didn't allow me to build that relationship in a different way, I guess, for long term opportunity. yeah so So it may have affected the the retention of the client or maybe ah a long term solution.
00:18:10
Speaker
What would you have liked for it to look like instead? um I think as a consultant, i always like them to call me back. I like a recurring opportunity for them to find something else for me to do as a consultant that I never leave, that I can always charge them for services.
00:18:25
Speaker
um that That would be my end goal. And I think that, again, is more personal. It's it's building the relationship and that rapport and that trust in a different
Co-Creating Solutions
00:18:34
Speaker
way. Not to say that I'm not good at sales, but I think, you know, sometimes I'm just driven to get the project done and think if efficiency is where where it is and quality and efficiency, don't get me wrong, but I don't think about the relational component as as much.
00:18:49
Speaker
So. Yeah, and that that is the reality. And being good at sales, that selling a new job every time takes a lot more work than retaining an existing client or selling them in additional packages of service because they enjoyed working with you. They feel like you've really got their best interest at heart. It wasn't just about today's answer, but...
00:19:12
Speaker
that, man, Chris is really with me and he's as invested in the success of my business as I am And i I would be afraid to go talk to anybody else that I wouldn't have that degree of connection and investment from somebody else that really cared about my business. And I think that's the difference of what we're talking about is sitting and Sitting in that a little bit longer with them, asking more questions, getting really curious, inviting them into the co-creation process. And I say that when I talk about co-creating, like co-creating the solution because they're the ones that have to take that back and implement it.
00:19:56
Speaker
So if it's something that we always gave them or told them what to do and they're like, okay, I'm going to do it, but their heart's not in it.
00:20:07
Speaker
They're probably not going to execute on that plan very well because they weren't really bought in, but maybe they didn't know what else to do And they just were like, okay, well, I just, I'm going to go with this answer because I don't have anything else.
00:20:22
Speaker
And nobody who is really sitting there helping me think through what other alternatives to could be or what else I might be can need to consider. And you might be making a decision based upon a very small piece of information and not have the full context.
00:20:39
Speaker
And they do, they have the full context of their business. They know what happens day to day. They know what happened five years ago. They know what happened yesterday. um They can bring a lot more to that conversation if we, if we have a strong relationship with them and they trust us.
00:20:55
Speaker
You know, I think about, you know, some clients will probably want me to just solve for it, figure it out. And you've got some that want you to invite them to the party, if you will. And us brainstorm together and us discover exactly what that new territory is together. I can see how that might work.
00:21:12
Speaker
And I think about. You know, I want to be more human. You know, we talked about this in the past. I want to be more human because obviously I don't want ai a part of the party. They got to know that there's a benefit in having me around.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah. um So I can see that working, but I can also see. that maybe there will be some hesitance. How have you sold this to leadership in the past and letting them differentiate between the pluses and the minuses?
00:21:40
Speaker
And I know you've gotten some questions because I know how leaders are. Yes. They want to make sure they're spending their dollars the right way. And I know you're an expert in this area. How do you persuade them? How do you help them see the benefit?
00:21:51
Speaker
mean, what ah what is your... And i'm I'm not trying to corner you. I mean, what's your two or three things you toss in at the end to say, hey, you have got to do this because because of X. And I know you want to make sure that you're serving your client to the best of your ability and you want to continue that relationship. What are you sharing with them? Yeah, and I think it's a yes and. ah you know um Again, i don't want us to feel like we have to completely abandon the gift of the compliance mindset.
00:22:20
Speaker
Even in the age of ai If I'm going to evaluate the output of AI, my expertise, my experience, my ability to know patterns from clients I've worked with help me evaluate the options or the data that that is coming out of artificial intelligence. So there's there is value to that.
00:22:43
Speaker
My argument is that there are clear therere or less clear-cut answers today. And look at what so we're recording this episode in early May 2026.
00:22:56
Speaker
And just this past weekend, look at what happened with Spirit Airlines. They had kind they had a bankruptcy restructuring. They had a complete plan that they had announced would get them out of bankruptcy by early summer.
00:23:13
Speaker
That was, I believe, in March of this year. So just two months ago. Well, since that time. We're in a war with Iran. Fuel prices, jet fuel prices have more than doubled. That wasn't part of the contingency modeling they did. In fact, the pricing modeling they had used for jet fuel was half of what it is today, just two months later.
00:23:38
Speaker
So again, if you would have just had a consultant saying, Here's how bankruptcy proceedings work. Here's how you need to structure this. Here's the right answer. Here's the right path. Just follow these 10 easy steps and you'll be on the right track, which they believe there were. And I'm sure they were working with advisors, but they were working with a set piece of information.
00:24:01
Speaker
Well, every single day, something was continually shifting. And that advisor being able to sit with them and say, okay, where do we pivot now?
00:24:13
Speaker
How much longer can we go? What's our thresholds? What do we need to think about when we think about all of these employees, over 7,000 employees?
Adaptive Challenges and Leadership
00:24:24
Speaker
Oh, we've got we've got customers that have bought tickets on our planes out through the next few months. How do we do that? And so it was it was pretty, at least from the external side, seemed like a pretty abrupt decision that I believe it was Friday, you know, planes were flying, planes landed,
00:24:46
Speaker
and the next flight just didn't take off like they ceased operations shut down everything people in airports with tickets but part of that decision making was we we need to make sure we have enough cash to refund all those tickets so that people can buy tickets on other airlines to keep moving where they need to go And we know that we can't this is no longer sustainable because we don't see an end to this crisis with the jet fuel pricing.
00:25:15
Speaker
And none of our modeling allows us to go there any further. that All that work that was happening behind the scenes with an advisor sitting there with the CEO and the board and trying to figure out what can we do? How long can we go?
00:25:32
Speaker
Where does our plan take us next? that That was no clear cut answer. That was something going, we're going to have to just look at this every single day and we're going to have to decide how much risk we can take. And when that when that day comes where, okay, there there are no options left for us. Even with the...
00:25:53
Speaker
Like ah the government was offering them a deal to try and bail them out. And still, they did not feel like that was in current conditions that that was going to get them where they needed to go.
00:26:05
Speaker
So they ceased operations overnight. Awesome. Awesome. That's a good example of, you know, when it doesn't play out. What's what's a what's another example of someone who's doing it right?
00:26:17
Speaker
I mean, what does that look like? Do you have any? I know you've been involved in this in quite some time. Is there another example of one that does it right and a different outcome? know, I think we could I think we could rewind a little bit and look at COVID.
00:26:31
Speaker
Look at all of the things that had to happen during that time. There's no playbook for a global pandemic. In modern times, we had never done something where essentially the whole world shuts down to try and stem the spread of of a disease.
00:26:48
Speaker
And, you know, there you can look at different places where people were making decisions. They were saying, here's what we know right now. We're going to go two weeks and then we'll come back to you. We're going to come back with more information.
00:27:03
Speaker
Here's what we're recommending. Whether you agreed with mask usage or not, what we knew was the spread was so, um, That's word I want to look this so violent that it like we had to do something because hospitals were overwhelmed.
00:27:19
Speaker
People were dying. So how can we make sure that we can at least until we understand it better, keep it from spreading as rampant. That's the word I was looking for as rampantly as it as it had been.
00:27:32
Speaker
And, you know, again, some of those decisions looking back, we don't know what would have happened had those decisions not been made. Some we agreed with, some we did not. But the people who were leading us through that were taking the most readily available information and trying to do the best they could with that information and pivoting as soon as they received new information.
00:27:56
Speaker
And I think in like that's what it looks like in its best case scenario. We are not always going to get it right because the things that we're facing today are so incredibly complex.
00:28:10
Speaker
However, if we can be transparent about that and we can say, here's what we're basing this information on, when we get new information, we're going to reconsider that.
00:28:21
Speaker
And you have somebody that has different types of expertise that are sitting around you, helping you to guide you through those decisions, because ultimately,
00:28:33
Speaker
You know, um whether it's a government leader or hospital leader, they had to make decisions that impacted lots of people. And those decisions weren't made lightly.
00:28:43
Speaker
But um they want somebody around them that's an advisor that can say, here's the here's some other things that you may not know that you may want to consider as part of this. There was no playbook with somebody saying, here's the five easy steps to get through a pandemic.
00:28:59
Speaker
So what do you say to the leader that says, um i can't transition? what What do you say to someone who says that they can't do it? I ah i have a compliance mindset and I just can't get to the
Personal Identity and Advisory Approach
00:29:13
Speaker
advisory form. What do you share with them?
00:29:16
Speaker
That's a choice. And I do believe that there are people that do not want to, because what we haven't talked about is this isn't a skill that you learn in the same way that you learn how to use a software.
00:29:36
Speaker
it's It's not all what we call a technical challenge. This is an adaptive challenge. It means that I'm going to have to change something about myself and I might have to let something go that I felt really good about.
00:29:51
Speaker
So reverse back to the story we talked about earlier when My worth and value were based upon me having the best ideas or all the answers or being able to learn faster than anyone else.
00:30:09
Speaker
If ah you want me to step into something where you're like, I want you to be more curious, that feels super risky because i don't know that I'm going to look good if I'm more curious, because for so long, people have told me what makes you valuable are the things that your intelligence could give you.
00:30:30
Speaker
And I think this is a different type. This is a different type of intelligence, more of an emotional intelligence. And i have to let go of my brain wanting quick, easy answers and sometimes saying, actually, a great conversation is may mean that we've generated more questions than answers and more questions for things that we need to go think about and explore things that we hadn't even thought about places where there are other impacts. So, and for example, you could just say, well, we're going to make a business decision about Spirit Airlines and we're going to need to stop the bleeding. So we're just going to cease operations.
00:31:14
Speaker
and not taken into consideration what are the impact to the people we employ? What are the impact to the customers? We could have just looked at it strictly through a business lens, but it impacted lots of things. it impacted It impacted their staff, like flight attendants and pilots who got off one plane and didn't go to the next part of their itinerary. So other airlines were offering services seats to to their staff to be able to get them home.
00:31:44
Speaker
ah They were offering capping pricing on open seats on other airlines to allow Spirit customers to be able to get an affordable ticket on their airline to get to where they needed to be. So it there were impacts all over the place in watching the industry step up, watching how they were considering they did save money to be able to refund those customers. And when you've gone into the market as you're as a low cost airline, the idea of stranding passengers who are already probably buying one of the least expensive tickets on the market
00:32:22
Speaker
are not going to be it's not going to be easy for them to go buy same day ticket on another airline at same day pricing. So there's all of these things that you have to consider and weigh.
00:32:35
Speaker
And that's, I mean, that's what we're talking about here is being able to hold all of that. And as we talked about with our brain, those are not all the things that our brain likes to do. Those are very uncomfortable for us.
00:32:48
Speaker
And if we've been really heavily based in that compliance mindset, it's going to be even more difficult because now I have to let go of a piece of my identity.
00:32:59
Speaker
And some people choose not to do it, Chris. That's like, that's
Transforming Organizational Culture
00:33:02
Speaker
the reality. Some people are saying, I'm not going to do the inner development work that's required. And other people will say, i realize that A gift and a strength I have has run into its limits.
00:33:16
Speaker
And I think I talked about in another episode that one of the things that I learned when I did my first 360 is that Heather's teacher voice can be condescending.
00:33:31
Speaker
And I was like, oh my gosh, like that was never my intent to be condescending. And that because I could come up with an idea faster than other people, it would often shut down other idea generation in the room.
00:33:45
Speaker
Again, not my intent. I just wanted to contribute and that they would come to me faster maybe than others. than someone else And so i had to realize the impact that I was having on others around me.
00:33:58
Speaker
And I think that's true for us as advisors or consultants, is that how we show up in those rooms will depend, will ah determine how we're going How our clients, how open they're they're willing to be with us, how vulnerable they're willing to be with us, how much information will they share with us?
00:34:18
Speaker
Because if we come in as a know-it-all, then they're probably not going to want to be that open because they may feel stupid or they may feel like you're going to judge them or things like that. And so that can also detract from the relationships.
00:34:37
Speaker
You know, when I think about the advisory ah mindset and the impact it could have on culture, because I know some cultures are rigid. You know, I come from a public accounting framework, nothing wrong with public accounting framework, consulting framework, but it is rigid. It is very linear. It just looks the way it looks.
00:34:55
Speaker
And it seems like this advisory mindset would help. mean, what are your thoughts as it relates to culture and the advisory mindset? And sometimes it seems like little stuck and this could help with that a whole um transformation, if you will.
00:35:11
Speaker
The skills are definitely transferable. So if we learn to develop the skill set of asking better questions, being more curious, doing the inner development work about where does my value and worth really reside, everything shifts around us because we're operating from a new operating system now.
00:35:32
Speaker
So we impact the culture and the culture impacts us. I think one thing that really came to mind for me when you were talking about culture is does our firm or does our organization have a high degree of psychological safety?
00:35:47
Speaker
And what that means is that we have an environment where it's safe to ask questions. it's safe to take risks and by risks i know it's kind of a hard word sometimes in accounting is like not crazy willy-nilly but hey have we ever thought about this that innovation risk or that let's think a little outside the box that's not something that we're always rewarded for in accounting and in the age of ai i I think we have no choice but to develop this advisory mindset pretty early in our career because ai will continue to do more and more of the technical production work.
Key Leadership Skills for Advisory Mindset
00:36:32
Speaker
And our expertise is not just going to come from technology. having all the answers to the accounting questions or how to apply the standard, that piece of skepticism, professional judgment, curiosity, asking better questions, getting more information, um sitting with someone in how to make good financial decisions about direction of their organization and their structure and the things that we can advise them on.
00:37:03
Speaker
that's That's where the profession is headed. And so we need a culture where it's safe to develop those behaviors, where those behaviors are rewarded, and where we can model them for the next generation.
00:37:17
Speaker
You know, I know your firm has worked with leaders in the past, and they came to you. I know you didn't sell all of them. They came to you, and they know that they knew that you had a solution that was of interest to them.
00:37:27
Speaker
They get the compliance mindset versus advisory mindset. um I mean, why did they say they came to you? I mean, did they understand it and see it in a different way were they just curious? Walk me through what one of those, and because I know you've experienced and you didn't have to sell because I've had projects where I really didn't have to sell anything. And they came to me and said, Chris, I think you have a solution.
00:37:49
Speaker
So what did that look like when they came to you? what what What were they interested in? Or did they just want you to explain it to them? Help me explore that a bit with one that was, and it turned out to be a success.
00:37:59
Speaker
You know, they got what they wanted to get out of it. I mean, I'd just be curious. I'm just curious as to how that that unfolded. yeah So I think there's three things that I've been known for for the last 10 years where I've had a tremendous impact for some people.
00:38:15
Speaker
Those three areas are how to build a psychologically safe culture, which were results in high performance at how to develop ah what I'll call a coaching skillset, but it's just really brain friendly communication skills.
00:38:31
Speaker
How can, how can I be more curious before ask, before I tell, how can I um lean out of like kind of owning the whole thought process and bringing more people into that personal accountability, accountability and co-creation. I'm a big believer that,
00:38:50
Speaker
If i tell you, then I own it. If you discover it for yourself, you own it. And you have a lot more motivation and agency into carrying it forward. You're much more likely to see the solution through if it's something that you helped discover.
00:39:09
Speaker
And so when i when they've come to me, they've usually heard from someone else about the impact I've had. And what has shifted for this person? Or maybe they witnessed firsthand, since you've been working with this person, i have just seen a tremendous difference in how they treat others, how they're showing up, how they communicate, the way they're thinking, and that they want to know more.
00:39:35
Speaker
And I think that's because while I do develop the skills and do some of the technical work, I spend much more time working on their capacity.
00:39:46
Speaker
meaning their, um, their inner development work, how they're thinking about things, their self-reflection, self-awareness, uh, thinking about their thinking, just similar to the few questions I asked you in the middle of this conversation that just said like, okay, great. So how is this serving you? How is it not serving you?
00:40:06
Speaker
What would you have liked for it to be different? And then we'd start talking about, okay, like what are some of the ways you can go about that? But oftentimes, we're just not even aware what we're doing. It's like where' it's so ingrained, and it's just part of how we operate.
00:40:20
Speaker
And we've all been successful, however you define that term. And so we we don't spend the time often to say, okay, but how much more successful could I be? Or how much more effective could I be if I stopped to reflect on What's still getting in my way?
00:40:39
Speaker
And oftentimes what's getting in our way is what's between our two ears or about 18 inches, the disconnect between our head
Human Skills vs AI
00:40:47
Speaker
and our heart. So. You know, it's good to see because I know leaders now trying to figure out what the right dose of whatever it is for their business. and we often overlook because we consider this soft skills. And is it a soft skills play? Because I know it's more than help. Help them understand it's not just soft skills that we're talking about.
00:41:06
Speaker
Because we'll put it in that bucket and we'll say, oh, we already do this as it relates to our people. You know, sell them that it's not bad that, that it's broader than that. Yeah, for the love of everything that's good, let's not call them soft skills, please. if we If I could make one impact with this whole podcast, I would love to get people to stop calling human skills soft skills. Call them power skills, call them human skills.
00:41:31
Speaker
ah But again, i think that we do a disservice when we call them soft skills because we make them seem as if like they're not that important. And I would argue they are some of the hardest things to do because, again, I've You heard me say earlier, your brain likes patterns. Your brain likes to be able to predict what's going to happen next, because then it can automatically kind of execute on what that is.
00:41:55
Speaker
And people are not that. People are not very predictable. People are incredibly complex. They've got emotions. And, you know, that's a lot to deal with. And but it's the thing that I think will distinguish us from ai And if we're worried about our value or will our job be replaced or what's the impact a and ah AI is going to have on the profession, though the thing I would say is like invest heavily in those human skills because those are the things that at least –
00:42:28
Speaker
For what we know today in the foreseeable future, AI will not be able to fully replicate. AI can't sit with me and be there with me, like looking across the table in my emotions and say, man, this is really tough. And I can see the struggle on your face.
00:42:46
Speaker
And let's talk through all of the things that you're weighing It would do that. It could ask you some questions, but it's going to do it in a very more mechanical way that just feels like a a process you're going through versus somebody really seeing you and being able to sit with you.
00:43:05
Speaker
So those are some of the things that I think about. Awesome. Awesome. You know I think as we get the point where we're trying to wrap up our conversation today and I want to make sure that we're leaving some nuggets.
00:43:16
Speaker
OK. And I think about the compliance mindset and advisory mindset. And you just hit on a big note. It's not soft skills that it's broader than that. What are those takeaways? I'm not trying to sketch out a formula for someone to try and do it themselves, but I am because I want them to understand how important the advisory mindset is. What is a program? What can they dive into? What are those one or two or three steps to get them started in the right direction? Because every organization can't afford to have you or anyone else be a part of that conversation and building it out. So how can they what's a to do for them that they can take away and and start down a path of success?
00:43:57
Speaker
I think the the biggest thing that I start to think about is this is not just a skill building capability. So this is not a training program or you can't just go buy an e-learning and in an hour have people be able to learn the skills um to move them from more of a compliance mindset to an advisory mindset.
00:44:20
Speaker
There are elements of skills within it, but it's not you're not going to fully see that shift if you're just approaching it as a skills training issue.
00:44:32
Speaker
It's a developmental issue. And the first thing that we can do as as leaders is to take on our own developmental agenda, to talk about the work that we're doing to become more effective, to...
00:44:48
Speaker
to broaden our our operating system, if you will. the The more we upgrade ourselves developmentally, we have greater capacity to handle greater complexity, greater uncertainty.
00:45:03
Speaker
And that's the work ahead of us. And there are lots of ways that you can you can go about doing that. Some of it's just in self-reflection, starting to ask people about what they're noticing today.
00:45:15
Speaker
about how you're showing up? do you Do you rush to an answer or a solution? Do you ask good questions that open them up? And of course, it's really risky. If your culture is not right, you start asking people those questions. They're going to tell you exactly what you want to hear if it's not safe to operate another way.
00:45:37
Speaker
And if you do have budget, like to really invest in development. And again, I'm not talking about training. I do believe training is one way that we develop, but inner development work, work that helps us re-examine the mindsets we have, the assumptions we hold,
00:45:58
Speaker
And where we're divin defining our own identity and value, because oftentimes it's those things.
Conclusion: Embracing Advisory Mindset
00:46:07
Speaker
It's I need to be likable. I'm not if if I'm not likable, then I have no value here. um If I'm not smart, people are going to think that I don't belong here.
00:46:19
Speaker
If I can't get all this work done and like show how I'm in control. Those are things that we've been rewarded for that don't serve us as we're becoming leaders that want to have more capacity.
00:46:32
Speaker
So taking on that developmental agenda at the highest levels, modeling it for everyone else is the best first step. You know, i so appreciate your making time. I mean, I learned so much by sitting down with you. And believe me, I am I don't know nothing about the human brain.
00:46:50
Speaker
OK, I've been successful only because I've been using my compliance mindset. How about that? And being able to deliver in a certain way. from an efficiency perspective, but I've learned a lot.
00:47:01
Speaker
Okay. So I do thank you for sharing. And I know we've got other episodes coming, so I don't want the audience to think this is the last one because there are many more to come. But I do thank you for your time today and look just look forward to our next conversations.
00:47:14
Speaker
Thanks so much for having me, Chris. Awesome. I'll look into the camera and I'll share this with the audience. You know what I've learned today is that there's a compliance mindset and that's where I am and that's okay. But I also know that there's an advisory mindset. I can do it better. I can sit down with a client and I can huddle up in a different way and get to know them in a different way and share in a different way and they can share with me in a different way.
00:47:41
Speaker
So don't think there's just one way to do it. It's not a soft skill. It's a program. And you've got to be willing to adapt and adjust to be successful. So thank you for tuning in to Becker Accounting Podcast. And I look forward to our next conversation.