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911 Plays7 months ago
Ben Tanzer's work includes the short story collection UPSTATE, the science fiction novel Orphans and the essay collections Lost in Space and Be Cool. Tanzer is a storySouth and Pushcart nominee, a finalist for the Annual National Indie Excellence and Eric Hoffer Book Awards, a winner of the Devil's Kitchen Literary Festival Nonfiction Prose Award and a Midwest Book Award, and has received an Honorable Mention at the Chicago Writers Association Book Awards for Traditional Non-Fiction and a Bronze Medal from the Independent Publisher Book Awards.
Tanzer has also also written for Hemispheres, Punk Planet, Men’s Health, and The Arrow, AARP’s GenX newsletter..
The Missing releasing March 21, 2024, nearly contemporaneous contemporaneously with this special episode release!
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:01
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host Ken Volante. Editor and producer Peter Bauer.
00:00:16
Speaker
Hey everybody, this is Ken Vellante with the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast, and I'm very excited that Ben Tanser on the show, and my gosh, Ben reading and looking and listening to your podcasts, see all the different things that you've done and do.
Discussing 'The Missing'
00:00:38
Speaker
Really exciting, but today you've got a new book out, The Missing, so I figured we would start there,
00:00:46
Speaker
And could you tell us about the missing, you know, the immediate event and your relationship to it in creating that book? Yeah, right on. So first, I just thank you for doing this. And I got to say, by the way, people love to make that joke. You know, I have a face for radio or podcast. But the real thing is, who's got the actual voice for it? So, dude, I have to say, one of your great, awesome strengths on this show is your voice is amazing. I hope you're doing
00:01:16
Speaker
I hope you're doing voiceover work somewhere or I'm going to start pitching you because man, you should be all over the place with that voice. Thank you, brother. I love it. I will say years ago, I had to interview a guy for a project and he was a radio personality. It was the first time like a real like legit big deal guy back when that was a big deal. He was on the board of a non-profit and that's why I met him. But we sat down with him in a bar and he started talking and I was mesmerized.
00:01:42
Speaker
Like you hear it on a radio and you're like, is that person like that in real life? And he comes and he's like, well, hello.
00:01:50
Speaker
That's genetic and shit. That's amazing.
Themes of Marriage and Parenting
00:01:52
Speaker
So anyway, The Missing. Yeah, thanks so much. This is a novel. It is, I don't know if this is important, but it's my first book in a number of years. So it's kind of weird, interesting talking about it. And it's my first novel in, speaking my relationship to it, I believe since 2013. So it's a weird, awesome, you know, space to be back in. I mean, this book,
00:02:15
Speaker
was built around this idea that what would it look like if your kid ran away? You were a married couple. And so you know this right off the first page. What if your kid ran away and didn't want to be found? Like that part's really important. It's not criminal. It may not even be personal, though of course it's personal, but your kid's just like, I'm not going to be in touch. You're not going to find me even in the age of social media. And so what does that look like for the couple who
00:02:41
Speaker
maybe in some ways their marriage has been particularly held together because their kids in the middle of it and they can set aside their own past, their own fears, their own bad urges. And so I thought that would be really interesting. And it was funny because someone said something the other night, like, I think we were just talking about the book and they said, oh, so you don't really focus on the kid at all, which isn't entirely true, except it is true that I thought the kid's a ghost.
00:03:07
Speaker
No, this isn't really about, it's not a kid's book, it's not for kids, of course, we welcome everybody reading and buying it.
Inspiration and Creation of 'The Missing'
00:03:13
Speaker
But I did really want to think, what does it look like to be in a long time relationship and think, oh, we got to do this now? I would add, just because you're asking about my relationship to it, I wrote it a while ago. It ended up gestating in weird ways that were not intended. But at the time I wrote it, I had too much younger children. I mean, they were not little kids, but now they're adults or nearly adults.
00:03:35
Speaker
And several people refer to the book as an empty nest book. And I'm fascinated by that because, A, I have been looking forward to an empty nest with all respect to my lovely boys. But to me, empty nest is something positive or could be. It's something you build towards and build on. And I'm thinking, wow, if your kid just snatched away from you, it is technically an empty nest. But there's nothing good about it. And so I really wanted to play with that idea, right?
00:04:01
Speaker
What if there's nothing good about it? I mean, of course, there's nothing really good about it. And what would that look like over time, especially when you're just not going to find anything out? So that's my relationship to it. The one thing I'll add, just because it's come up since you and I even first connected,
00:04:16
Speaker
is that I don't have a true relationship to this theme. It really is fiction, except I understand fear and parenting and being so worried about dumb shit and trying to be a good partner. So that's what I channeled. Since the book started getting some traction, not one, but two people have said to me, oh, yeah, I have a friend where that happened. And that is wild to me. So they know someone personally where their teenager ran away and they never spoke to them again.
00:04:45
Speaker
And I know it's not fantasy because I had been influenced by an interview I'd heard years ago where somebody was talking about that and I could never get it out of my head. But now I'm meeting people where they're like, yeah, that's more normal than you think, which is just weird. So that's my other relationship to it. Really not knowing what I'm talking about, except for the fear, anger, compulsion part, which I know a lot about. And then meeting people who are like, yeah, wow, this is my friend's experience. So I'm thinking, oh, that makes me very sad, by the way.
00:05:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, just right off the bat and the premise, I could say, having children myself and just seeing the, for me, the biggest shock in the development of my relationship was, you know, as they got older, because like there's some sort of idea in my head or maybe others' head. It's like, oh, the kids are getting older and everything's
00:05:39
Speaker
everything's easy or something or like you took care of them and now they're on their way. But it's certainly not
Parenting Reflections
00:05:47
Speaker
that. It's certainly a lot more weird what my kids were going through as they got older, reflecting on my own experience and maybe a deeper connection to that, which was, you know, unsettling a bit. So it wasn't like, hey, tag out, you know, in the dynamics that you mentioned of
00:06:08
Speaker
You know, in this case, tragically where, you know, a child isn't there because, you know, because the disappearance and missing. But I think you're right. Whether folks are connecting to that aspect of it, which is, you know, the that difficult part of it or the fact of, heck, what happens to this relationship? Because a lot of people can really connect to the shocking dynamic change of when it's like,
Ben Tanzer's Creative Journey
00:06:38
Speaker
you and your partner and you know it's you too and uh and uh so i could see a lot of folks generally you know really really connecting uh to that so uh very excited to hear the that the book out today everybody um the missing uh we'll chat some more about it ben but um what
00:07:03
Speaker
You've written before. Take a look at your website. I've seen some of your creations, your podcasts. You do a lot of different things. I wanted to ask you about, when I've listened to your podcast and seeing your deep interest, writing is like it.
00:07:29
Speaker
You've written books before. Can I ask you, did you see yourself as an author, as an artist? At a certain point, you're like, shit, this is what I am, and this is my vibe? Because you do a lot of things. So I wanted to ask you about that. I really appreciate the question. I'll give you the backstory, and I'll keep it brief, because otherwise, you'll be thinking, well, dude, nobody cares that much about your brain. And what I would say is,
00:08:00
Speaker
And I mean this validly, like I'm honored and humbled I get to write it all, much less anyone shows any interest. And it may be the thing I feel most intensely about, but also I feel equally intense about the other things and it's only one part of the day and maybe it'll become a bigger part of the day down the road, I would be thrilled. To the beginning of the question though, and I think it speaks very much to your show and me listening to your other guests, I mean,
00:08:25
Speaker
I love to read. It really has to start there, not because I'm making a dramatic soapbox statement, meaning I never actually thought about writing as a kid. I love when people come on my show or they're on shows like yours and they're like, I knew. Age seven, I wrote my first novel. That's not me. I was a wannabe athlete, but I wanted to read. As soon as I could figure it out, I was obsessed. I'm very obsessive, so we shouldn't overstate that. I can get very obsessed about almost anything.
00:09:00
Speaker
I'm becoming an old man, which I'm thrilled about. Um, but I used to be a lot more embarrassed about those kinds of things. And maybe five, 10 years ago, I just thought, dude, enough, enough being embarrassed about being obsessive about being a fan boy.
00:09:12
Speaker
It's what you are. Clearly you're not going to shake it, but I really wanted to read. And so part of my, you'll see this as it plays out some of the stuff you're talking about. I always thought it would be cool to meet writers. I mean, that really is my original thing as a small child. It wasn't, wouldn't it be cool to meet athletes though it would be, and I'm a bit of a celebrity person. I mean, I'm a bit of a star fucker apparently. So I've been told we're not a celebrity.
00:09:33
Speaker
I want to be careful.
Ben's Writing Realization
00:09:35
Speaker
But you know, I do enjoy a lot of that. But I always thought writers, it would be cool to meet a writer and like try to understand that. So that's the one piece. When I was a senior in high school, I had to take a required creative writing class.
00:09:49
Speaker
And I took it and a couple of the things I wrote got a lot of attention And so up until 18 or 19 the idea of being a writer also never occurred to me And then I thought maybe that's a thing and then we could break it down. I spent literally
00:10:05
Speaker
10 to 12 years just thinking about how someone starts. And I can say that because when I turned 30, I woke up, and you might appreciate this, and I was through with grad school, I had been married for about a year, and I woke up and I was really unhappy. Like, unhappy. And I thought, let's break this down.
00:10:23
Speaker
you're happily married which i was that's not me saying that case my wife listens and you got a cool job which i did stuff i wanted to do and i thought so something's missing not to do a branding thing with the book and i sat there and this is true story i stared at the ceiling and i thought what's missing i thought oh you're supposed to be a writer
00:10:42
Speaker
And within a day or so of my 30th birthday, I started writing. And now I've been going 20 plus years, almost every day. So, I mean, that's the real story that I had been thinking about it for years, even writing notes down, like, hey, if you ever write a book, do this. And then I woke up and I was unhappy and I thought, OK, man, I didn't have this language back then. How are you going to reinvent yourself? Like, what's going to happen? And I will say, and that's where the podcast and other things come from. It's made my life infinitely better.
00:11:12
Speaker
I feel like it's important sometimes to recognize who I am. I mean, I'm really privileged, right? I know that. And I wasn't happy, and that's embarrassing too. So I thought, you're going to have to do something else. And I have stayed happily married. Again, if my wife's listening, I believe that's true. I have these two young men in my life, our children, who I love. They're amazing.
00:11:33
Speaker
And without writing, I don't think I'd be a happy person. Like, it's a very odd dynamic. It really was life changing for me. So that's the sort of short back to that. I don't know what you're looking for, but, you know, that's really the process.
Academic and Philosophical Influences
00:11:45
Speaker
No, I I really appreciate that because, you know, I look like my first love in deep study, you know, at the university when when I had that
00:11:58
Speaker
ability to do so and it was kind of an open field like what am I gonna do what am I gonna see it's it's always books and it's always been books so it is in one of the you know in for me
00:12:14
Speaker
You know, you know formally I studied literature in philosophy, but even in philosophy, it's all books. It's all text and I when I started studying philosophy, I became really Confused at times because in my head it had developed that like if you weren't interested in philosophical questions You were an absolute like literature book hound and all this type of things and it wasn't it wasn't structured that way normally it was more of like
00:12:44
Speaker
here's your text over here and there's your fruity type of fiction and all this stuff over here as far as the seriousness. So my mind had developed with, you know, it is those books and that it is the philosophy. And I think that the talk and the artists like you do about their process and such is that
00:13:09
Speaker
I can't think of anything more complicated or maybe at times tough to articulate of the journey of like the idea here in what writing does for us. I was listening to the Freakonomics radio podcast. I love that. I just got into, I mean, I've listened to Freakonomics before, but I just got into a lot of these different things, but there was just a psychologist, just a simple,
00:13:38
Speaker
statement where she said that you know when humans were able to
00:13:43
Speaker
take the mess up in their head or the stuff or the beauty or whatever was up there and place it out, just place it outside with such as pivotal development of being like, it doesn't all have to be here in that creative process. So literature is just vital to me and that's part of the energy I got from you and I really,
00:14:11
Speaker
I really enjoyed connecting with your conversations about that process with writers. I wanted to ask because I want to hit a couple of the big questions to get them in there and to see your thoughts about it.
Art and Personal Expression
00:14:30
Speaker
About art.
00:14:32
Speaker
I mean, I see your interest in music. It comes through in your expression of all the different things you do. I was wondering your thoughts about art and what art is because it is quite important for both of us and we talk about it a lot, but what is it?
00:14:53
Speaker
Man, I love that. So first off, if you're going to throw out a big question right after God, that may be the biggest question. So right now, what is art? Yeah, you know, it's interesting. And by the way, I love what you're saying about books. You know, I would add a layer to your previous comment, which is that for me, two books were a very tactile experience. Like I like the book when I was younger, I always read.
00:15:14
Speaker
I don't do this much anymore. I'd seem much weirder. I could go into a bookstore and just walk around for an hour and just run my finger along the spines of books. I didn't even always have to take the shelf. There was just something about touching one. It's a real relationship. What is art? I should add a wrinkle, which might be interesting for us. I'm the son of an artist, a painter, beautiful.
00:15:36
Speaker
I know I'm biased and I know he was very, very talented and died way too young. So whether some sort of larger success, which again, I thought he was incredibly successful. I don't think he did. Whether something might have come later, you know, I don't know. But I grew up in a house with an artist. This always sounds funny when I say it out loud. My father's an artist. My mom was a therapist. So I was getting it from both sides.
00:16:01
Speaker
things about examining stuff. And my dad, who was also very extroverted, he could lecture anyone on any topic at any time. It's like, oh, you want to compare Kafka and the golem? Oh, you mean the Buddhist this or that? Like, do everything. So what is art? You know, it's interesting.
00:16:20
Speaker
It is certainly a manifestation for, to your point, what's going on in our head. What I think is the tricky part is why we each have certain skills. I can't play a musical instrument, though I'm obsessed with music. I really can't paint, though my father always said, you're better than you think. But of course, he was a good dad in that way. I am kind of it.
00:16:41
Speaker
What's interesting to me and what I have really tried to struggle with like especially now in middle age And I think you've touched on this is not just what is art, but what's an artistic life, right? And so one thing which again if you're going my website or read my blog not that these things are necessarily interesting
00:16:58
Speaker
I'm trying to craft a kind of lifestyle. And I think art is also how we live, right? And I take the living part really seriously. So I think it's a gift. It's a gift when you have a particular skill, right? I don't want to take for granted that I, as soon as I tried writing, it worked like something clicked, you know? I also think we limit art too often. Not only do we ignore people that get ignored, right? Somehow quilting isn't art or embroidery. But
00:17:28
Speaker
I don't think we define it too narrowly and i think of my father alive we would probably argue about this and i think my mom and i have argued about it somewhat because i see a lot of things as our rate the ability to create i mean this is a simple answer to a very big question if you can find a way to create.
00:17:45
Speaker
And I always use this word and sort of excavate what's in your head and put it out in the world. You've created art. You have created art. And I would say, and you're probably much smarter about this, so feel free to make me sound better. You know, I think with a universe, a history of people saying what's art and what isn't art, and even though I will push back on anything where someone says this is not something, I also think we define art too narrowly, right? You've got something in your head, you
00:18:11
Speaker
create it, you look at it, and you think, oh, that's what I was trying to say. If you can say what you are trying to say, even if it's a beautiful PowerPoint presentation, I consider that art. It's an expression. I really enjoy that, seeing what you want to say. I mean, there's succinct in there that really struck me, that idea, saying what you want to say. And again, to me, what's interesting as someone trying to be an artist, is talking to a fellow artist, is that
00:18:37
Speaker
the saying what you want to say is the hard part. Assuming you have a certain skill or a platform to work on, saying what you want to say is not as easy as you want it. And I would add, and I'm not trying to push the book, but one of the threads of the missing, and one of the things I'm caught up with as someone who thinks about people, thinks about myself, is that it's very hard to say what you want to say, right?
Communication in Art
00:19:04
Speaker
So one of the threads of the book, which is why I also hope people connect with it,
00:19:07
Speaker
whether they've ever been married or care about marriage or care about children, right? And I don't proselytize about marriage or children. I'm glad it's worked out for me. I understand it's not that straightforward, but...
00:19:19
Speaker
We communicate poorly, most of us. We don't say what we want to say or we say it in a way we don't want to say it. Or, and this is my experience, you can literally see the words leaving your mouth and you're like, that's not the way to say it and it's too late. So one of the subtexts of The Missing, but really all the books I've written,
00:19:38
Speaker
which always sounds obnoxious, is just trying to understand how we communicate in different situations, how we try to make sense of that. And that's also the art part, right? Trying to understand how to say it. Does it sound correct? And does it sound correct to others? So here, I want to add a layer. Please respond.
00:19:54
Speaker
Yeah, part of the art is in someone else saying I like that or I don't like that right and either is can be fine So it's also interesting you have to figure out how to put it out in the world So someone can respond to it. I you know people always say I would write whether I was getting published or not I'm sure I would write whether I was getting published or not, but I also very much
Audience and Art
00:20:17
Speaker
understand my ego and I don't want to be writing a knock out post. I don't want that. I want to put it out there. Some of that's ego, some of that's what do you think? How did you react to that? I have to say, anytime someone says to me, dude, that felt like raw nerves as I dove in. I thought right on because raw nerves are very interesting to me in the same way punk music is interesting to me, in the same way David Cronenberg movies are.
00:20:42
Speaker
You really feel something visceral. I love that feeling that maybe on occasion I can create something as visceral as the stuff I love because I love a lot of stuff, but visceral is always a key factor in it. Yeah, I'm you got my mind moving. And you mentioned I've told the story a couple of times on the show, but you mentioned punk in the the the you know, sometimes you look at yourself and like I've looked at myself as far as like contact with art and stuff and like
00:21:12
Speaker
How does it happen? How do you develop and how do you take yourself seriously enough to live an art life? And those developments for me have been much earlier, but I've been able to look back and see
00:21:25
Speaker
What I see is disruptions because I'm always interested in the disruptions. There's beautiful art that doesn't need to unsettle. I don't need to always be unsettled, but there's something about disruption for me that I'm deeply attracted to. And I never, I had, I talked about a few times, Cheryl Foster, Dr. Cheryl Foster, I took one class, I was studying philosophy and it was the philosophy of art. And it was just on a whim. I liked art like anybody else did.
00:21:54
Speaker
But in retrospect, it was so clear to me how she was looking to disrupt and looking to make everybody think about art differently. So she started the class and it was anarchy in the UK, played the song and was dancing around to it.
00:22:15
Speaker
Right? Like, into it and everything. And everybody's like, this is a philosophy arc. Did nothing else just happen? Except, you know, we got Sex Pistols playing and I'm like, all right. Like, what's going on? And when we studied film, we studied film. I love this to this day. I'll never forget it.
00:22:33
Speaker
You study in film and you know you and I know there are highbrow ways of doing this right like I mean there's great film and there's you know kind of elite film and you can look at it that way, but She interrogated us on just using two movies to look at film and one was at the time Silence of the Lambs was
Film Influences
00:22:57
Speaker
Hugely influential popular best picture horror movie Shocking movie to this day to for most people who encounter it in talking about that talking about that is being Recognized and so we watched that and then on the other side was the study of a Saturday Night Fever which at the time and this was the piece which was really sunk into my head so
00:23:26
Speaker
I grew up in the 80s, this disco thing and all this weird stuff. I mean, it was fine.
00:23:37
Speaker
It was the at that time in the culture was this high tragedy, this disco tragedy and meshed in that time. It had a meeting that was much different than the kitschy kind of goofy and all those ascensions to height kind of failed over time because like there's a fucking disco movie.
00:24:00
Speaker
And so when we studied film, it was those two films. And it was so idiosyncratic, so engendering of thinking. And it was my first exposure to thinking about art and really the one and only art class, which was theory for me, that I've taken. So
00:24:25
Speaker
some of the things you mentioned are punk and movies, and of course, Cronenberg, yes. But that was my introduction to art. And I think I was just propelled from that point to
00:24:42
Speaker
look at it that way and never inhabited the elite space, I guess what I would say, which really impacts art. There is really an elitism. There is really a difficult way to get the keys to the castle, all those type of things. So I was set up well, and thank you, Dr. Cheryl Foster, to this day. Right on. So let me say, by the way, those are two movies that I consider to be
00:25:09
Speaker
profoundly influential on my brain, if not my actual work. So I think I'm just a little older than you. And so my wife and I have this in common. Our mothers, when we were still too young for it, took us to see Saturday Night Fever. So one of our bonding things is that we were children going to see that movie. What I think is interesting, because you mentioned The Kitsch and Disco, and this is not to blow myself up, but I'm happy to talk about it.
00:25:34
Speaker
I always took it really seriously, but you know, I take everything very seriously. So I thought disco was great. I love disco. So I should put that... Yeah, I do too. We're both okay on that. We're both okay on that. I always thought it was wonderful. I really, really, that movie had a huge impact on me, Saturday Night Fever, for a lot of reasons, also of which may be the cheesiest, is that, you know, my parents are from New York. Now my mom will say, well, I really grew up in Baltimore, but in my mind,
00:26:01
Speaker
My parents grew up in New York City. My dad really did. He was a super poor kid from the Bronx and became an artist, which is an amazing thing after being in gangs and getting arrested and dropping out of high school. And I guess all the things you do back then. But the reason I share that is that my parents are both fairly highbrow. They're not elitist. They didn't grow up elitist, but they're pretty highbrow.
00:26:23
Speaker
whether they intended this or not i i take highbrow and lowbrow seriously like i really enjoy it it's all one brow to me and so sometimes i'll say to my mom some romcom we watch i love and she's like really and i'm like i'm telling you that was a great performance
00:26:38
Speaker
Performance like last year the movie Ryan Lane came out I'm giving a huge plug to our indie rom-com from Great Britain that nobody has seen and it is Excellent, but my point though it also is that my parents again? I'm the son of an artist, but my parents were obsessed with movies So like you though earlier and differently movies really were the lens for me as a kid like we're movie obsessive and so I
00:27:03
Speaker
If you ask my mom almost anything, she'll say, wasn't that when we saw that movie? Or that was the time I drove to New York City. They raised us in upstate New York, so we did not have access to a ton of culture, though I still got a lot of culture. But we would go to New York City at the drop of a hat because a show opened
00:27:20
Speaker
up at the Met or there's a new play and we should go see a play this weekend and we could drive there and so the reason I'm sharing that is my mom is always like isn't that when we saw that movie when we were here you know and so it's a lens in a way is a lens for my whole life we use movies as shorthand to where we were what we were doing stage of the family
00:27:39
Speaker
And so you happen to pick two that are very profound to me. One, because of Saturday Fever, I went with my mom. And two, Silence of the Lambs may be the first movie I ever went to by myself, which is not a very big deal, except I was living in San Francisco at the time and nobody wanted to go.
00:27:54
Speaker
And I was pretty young, but I was out of college and I thought, do I have to go with somebody? And I went by myself, man. It was a Saturday afternoon and I just walked to the movie theater for my apartment and I thought, oh, this is going to be a lifelong thing. You don't need anybody to go with you. I think before that, I just sort of thought you were supposed to.
00:28:12
Speaker
Let's pause. Let's pause right there. I encountered that realization as well. And it was cultural or something. You go into movies by yourself. But once I broke through like you did, I had not all the in general, I had a deep preference, a deep preference to see them myself. It was just just for me and in my brain. And I would do it, you know, with traveling, whatever.
00:28:41
Speaker
the ability to see that a movie time's up a half hour up ahead. I'm done with what I need to do and I'm dropping into the dark right there and I'm sitting there by myself, my popcorn. I don't need anything more in life. So I learned that like you did early on just to go for it. But you saw silence of the lambs by yourself. How did that movie impact you when you first saw it?
00:29:11
Speaker
I'm going to actually reference something you said very quickly before. It's that I had never seen anything like it. I do think, and I wish I was a little smarter, it helped rewrite horror at the time. The focus on the female is the protagonist. Also, let's just put it out there. I'm also Jodie Foster obsessive.
00:29:29
Speaker
And I have to say, one of my great pleasures in recent weeks has been A, watching the new True Detective, which is terrific, and B, watching NIAB, which isn't that great. It's okay. But Jodie Foster, and Jodie Foster is fantastic. I said this to my mom the other day, I was like, I'm really enjoying Jodie Foster so much this month. Like I missed her, we grew up with her. I mean, I don't know. She is an amazing, I think.
00:29:53
Speaker
Yeah every stage of my life you know my parents were obsessed with Scorsese and so they were obsessed with Taxi Driver, Jodie Foster, then Bad News Bears and Silence of the Lambs like she is at every phase in our life so those are important things and how did that affect me? It made me think
00:30:13
Speaker
I'm going to say this very inelegantly, but you can do whatever you want. If you can figure out how to do it, there's no real rules, not that I'm aware of. Maybe someone has to give you their blessing, but maybe they don't. Maybe you go make it yourself. That's what really struck me.
Self-Discovery Through Art
00:30:29
Speaker
I don't think I could fully get it at the time, but that really started a surge of
00:30:34
Speaker
Dude, go do what you want. Go see what you want. It still took me several years to start writing it. So what's also funny is around the time of Sounds of the Lambs, I started journaling about my inability to start writing. And I kept saying, this isn't writing. This is a complaint or an exploration of why it's not happening. So I did that for several years, just writing about how I had to get started. All of that is around the same time. I will say, I'm sure lots of people say this, going to college was not especially profound for me.
00:31:03
Speaker
moving to California a month after college was absolutely, I don't know, precept shattering. I don't know where that phrase came from. I have like, because being on my own wasn't that big a deal working. I always had worked. I'd always taken care of my own laundry. My parents were not, they were both around and not around a lot when I was a kid. So being on your own was not a thing to me, but being on your own and being like, Oh,
00:31:27
Speaker
especially having a job. You can just go anywhere you want, do whatever you want, and pay your own bills, which I could. Nobody cares what you're doing. That was mind-blowing to me. So, Silence of the Lambs becomes part of that. Also, the movie, which I don't know if it's as good as the book, but Naked Lunch, which I think is also Cronenberg. I've read Cronenberg twice, but I am a bit of a Cronenberg obsessive. I mean, a history of violence to me and Eastern Promises, those came out back to back. I thought if you could ever write a book,
00:31:54
Speaker
and someone reads your book and they feel like they do watching either of those movies, you will have accomplished something. I'll also have a side note. Did you see a history of violence, which I think is... I did. I saw it in the theater, actually. Yeah, me too. So one of the great American movies, but one thing Cronenberg said...
00:32:10
Speaker
when he was talking about that movie, which really did have a profound impact on me, is he said, you know, violence is fast. It's not like in the movies. It's really quick and it's messy and it's aggressive. And that's what I was trying to capture in this movie. And when he said that, I paused and I thought, OK.
00:32:28
Speaker
How do you do that on the page? And it really hit me. How do you keep it messy and aggressive and fast? So I always stream, whatever I'm writing, I streamline it as much as possible. I try to have a sense of pace, even if it's just two people arguing over dinner, right? Or hooking up or missing their kid. I want it to feel like, oh my God, this is moving almost too quickly because real life does move quickly in my version of it, right?
Punk Music's Impact
00:32:51
Speaker
So anyway,
00:32:51
Speaker
That's a way longer answer than you're probably looking for, but all of those things are in my head at the same time, and then punk music where you and I just started. I was not punk as a kid. I was super norm core and boring, and I'm pretty norm core and boring now, and I'm definitely not punk at all. But as soon as I really started listening to it and the stuff I liked, again, all around 30, right? So California is a phase for me. Yeah.
00:33:14
Speaker
and beginning to write is a phase. Also, I started thinking, oh yeah, there's a level of aggression that's really exciting. Also, which we haven't talked about, I'm a real pleasure seeker, like to the max, but reading brings me pleasure in the same way other things do. And so then I started listening to punk and I thought, oh, this makes me happy. This is happy music. I never understood it. And then it was like, anything's possible now.
00:33:39
Speaker
Yeah, there's a clarity. I think, you know, when we talk about music, you know, both really into music. I enjoy, it's like not my favorite genre, like to listen through. There are other genres I like to listen through. The explosive energy and such.
00:34:02
Speaker
And there's an ethos, and there's an ethos in the culture, negative and positive. It's an active, dynamic piece, and sometimes punk makes you as pissed off as they seem to be pissed off about somebody. You completely disagree, but there's this energy of, I think it's the disruption. Not all art has to be that way, but just
00:34:30
Speaker
Like for me, I think to try to make it succinct is like, if you have a general belief that things are out there, kind of fucked up, then I have an appreciation of the smash it and knock it over to the side. And I love that energy. Yeah, things are so fucked up. I would also, you know, it's interesting, I'm going to use your word because you said it and it just hit me.
00:34:56
Speaker
in a really, I'm using my own word visceral way, but maybe sometimes the disruption's only in your head, right? You're not disrupting society. You're just disrupting the listener. And I'm thrilled when that happens, you know? And again, I would say punk isn't my favorite genre either. I just know that I was trying to understand something about my own brain and how I wanted to live. And I had always, I hadn't dismissed punk. I hadn't heard things I liked.
00:35:21
Speaker
I was just in a different place and it hit me differently. I think I probably also realized that I had a lot more anger than I realized that I had been sort of like tamping it down, managing it. One thing which I appreciated my age is things are really fucked up and I want to be vocal about them. I would have never disagreed with a friend up until like 35, 40 if they said something. I thought,
00:35:46
Speaker
If something was really poorly said, if it felt racist or misogynist, I always corrected people. But I was careful about other things. And one night I got into an argument with a friend at a bar about something he was so incredibly wrong about. And this is now 20 years ago, but it was so liberating. I thought, OK.
00:36:04
Speaker
let's figure out how not to be a dick but confront people when they're saying things you just know aren't true and so i don't want to self aggrandize cuz i am not in service to the world in the way i would love to be. It is very liberating to do your homework and be prepared when someone says something that's ridiculous you can say look man.
00:36:23
Speaker
We can disagree, but you're not stating facts. Let's at least agree, because by the way, my kids know this. I never agree to disagree. When someone says let's agree to disagree, I'm like, no, fuck that. Let's finish this thing. I got like, let's get to the nub.
00:36:39
Speaker
Well, let's at least get to the truth. And what I say to people, I really mean this is, it's more okay with me if you just look me in the eye and say, I don't care what's true, right? Like, fuck you. I much prefer that to you trying to convince me of something we both know.
00:36:54
Speaker
is wholly inaccurate we don't need to argue i won't give any examples we don't need to be political but someone will say something and you're like i think i said we both know that's not true i know it bothers you in a way it doesn't bother me but i'm not agreeing with you period yeah we can end it or we can fight i love to fight but um but that's all new to me by the way so the punk helps punk music helps that a lot
00:37:14
Speaker
All right. Hey listeners, you listen to Ben and Ken connect on a lot of things that excite them. I wanted to talk to you about just a little bit of wrinkle and something you said about being a fan, fanboy, that type of energy. I feel
00:37:33
Speaker
I feel like in my show there's a point I think you have to indulge yourself and indulge your relationship.
Embracing Artistic Passions
00:37:43
Speaker
And I think one of the things that I notice curious reactions to me is getting too excited about things that
00:37:52
Speaker
Like we're a long time ago or like, I'm a huge, I'm a metalhead. I'm a huge Swifty, like the Swifty thing in people. It's that weird, uncomfortable, kind of giggly thing around people. I mean, like, you're still going to go on this. You're still going to go on this. So on the fan bit, you know, I'm into comic books and music and movies, you know, like yourself.
00:38:16
Speaker
By the way, how did we meet sooner as you walk through the list of all the things I love and stay obsessed with? I just want to note that. I'm glad we're meeting now, at least. Yeah, well, one thing just before I go on with that, I had a guest, Stephen Pelnet, who I met at the Rose City Comic Con, and he had done these beautiful comics, zines, and it was called Upstate.
00:38:42
Speaker
And we came in contact with each other and I saw the upstate on yours and those type of things that kind of come up and I see them like, oh, there's the upstate here and there's the upstate there. But on the fan bit, one thing that I just think in general is that everybody has levels of enthusiasm for things.
00:39:05
Speaker
Yeah, everybody does. I know it's their favorite fruit or painting or their cars or anything. And I think a lot of times folks
00:39:20
Speaker
drop that or get rid of it because it feels eccentric or feels too indulgent. One of the pieces maybe in doing the podcast and otherwise is just an abandonment on that question. I don't care. I could present myself as not
00:39:39
Speaker
being the person that I am and be more level and all that type of thing, but that's not even me. And I find that a lot of folks, whatever that thrill or enthusiasm stuff, I think a lot of times there's a little bit of a fear to express that through behavior or emotion. And for me, indulging in that in a healthy way, I mean, everybody can go way too far, but indulging it in a healthy way, exploratory way,
00:40:07
Speaker
is something that I'd never give up. And working in art and doing a podcast has just taught me, don't, because number one, it's you. And number two is, if people weren't excited or as excited about these things, then maybe nobody would pay attention. What do you think about that whole dynamic? I mean, has that been a thing for you being like, hey,
00:40:31
Speaker
Chill out. It's not that kind of a song. It's funny. People have rarely said to me, chill out. And by the way, I too am a Swifty in part because my older son is absolutely a Swifty. And I just enjoy how much excitement he gets out of it. That's something I can totally feed off of. I don't have to love her like he loves her. I love that he loves her. And that's a lot. Which makes me enjoy her even more in that business. But yeah.
00:40:58
Speaker
You actually tapped on the word, I think, is one of the key things about it, is that people, you know, that fear drives a lot of our decision making, right? Another theme in the missing, again, not to plug the book, but these are things I'm interested in, which is, you know, we make decisions based on fear, not based on who we want to be. We either think society is telling us something like, nobody ever told me not to be a fanboy. I believe, though, particularly in high school and college, for me,
00:41:25
Speaker
I wanted to fit in like sometimes people don't want to fit in but most of us do at some point and you know i had already grown up in a house with an artist dad and a therapist mom and i didn't have any rules and i was fairly unsupervised like it was impossible to rebel but.
00:41:41
Speaker
I didn't want to rebel anyway. I wanted to be normal. Being normal means tamping down a lot of stuff. I don't want to make it all about society in this case, but society certainly tells you, be cooler. Don't get so excited. Yeah, I've been abandoning that now for 15, 20 years, but the 15, 20 years before that, I always struggled with it. Just a little embarrassed to get too excited, and I have a lot of things I get excited about.
00:42:06
Speaker
So now I tamp it down for work stuff and I tamp down a lot less everywhere else, but I think you're absolutely right. I mean, if we can abandon those things, it's also very liberating. You know, there's the guy, I always forget his name, so I apologize. He's one of the creators of Freaks and Geeks, and he's the director of Bridesmaids.
00:42:24
Speaker
Oh, I wish I remembered his name. I'm sorry. He's a very interesting dude. So I read an interview with him almost 20 years ago, and he tapped into what you and I are talking about. He said that his parents always encouraged him to embrace being a fanboy. It wasn't just they didn't have any judgment about it. They pushed it. And he said, it has served me better.
00:42:45
Speaker
To just indulge myself my obsessions what i want to create and i built a whole career as a filmmaker and a writer and he saw this all connected and when he said that i had already been thinking about it. I just thought you know what i'm giving into it now you know we're done fighting that i was already self-conscious about being self-conscious i thought.
00:43:05
Speaker
I'm done. And I don't know if it's made me a better artist or a better person, but it has definitely, to use this theme again, dude, you're really pulling this out of me today. It has made me a happier person, because now it's like, you don't like that? I'm okay. I'll say something about Taylor Swift and I'll get a look.
00:43:18
Speaker
And I'll think, you don't know. I was very excited for Barbie. And my son was very excited for Barbie. And the relationship with movies that I had with my mom, that I have somewhat with my wife, I now very much have with my older son. And we were talking about Barbie for like a year. And people would say, because we're all so obsessed with Greta Gerwig, and we're obsessed with Margot Robbie, we're obsessed with all the people involved. And the only reason I'm sharing all that is before it came out, I kept talking it up, how excited my son Miles and I were. And people were like, are you serious?
00:43:48
Speaker
And I was like, I don't even care if it's not good. I have been looking forward to it so much. And then we went, and I thought it was wonderful. I enjoyed it so much. But then I was telling people how much I enjoyed it, and I was still getting pushed back. And I just kept saying, just go see it. If you don't like it, I would love to have that conversation. But I really haven't.
00:44:06
Speaker
So anyone who went only because I suggested it had been like oh you were on to something I'm like, i'm not on to something. It's not nobody got back to you. Nobody got back to you afterwards I looked it up. Uh, paul i'm sorry to interrupt there paul feig paul is a fig yeah, it's either paul fig or paul fight, right? Thank you And by the way impeccably dressed. Wow, what a war always right always in a suit always That's that's unbelievable
00:44:33
Speaker
He's a very interesting interview and it feels like he must have a really interesting mind and for any or all reasons, he's almost never created something that I'm not particularly excited about. So we're also big weirdos in this house and we actually watch it every summer. My two children and I, we watch it start to finish every summer to talk about it. Excellent. Love it.
00:44:57
Speaker
All right, we're kicking around art, writing, painting, all these types of things. We get to throw out the other big question of the show for you to take a stab at. And I'm interested in what you have to say is, why is there something rather than nothing?
Creating Meaning
00:45:22
Speaker
Well, you know, I knew you were going to ask that, so I won't get all excited and say, I'm so glad you asked that. I have been thinking about this quite a bit because I knew I was coming on the show, but I'm listening to the show. So I do have an idea about this and tell me if it's the right one. I have a client who I do a lot of consulting work with. He's a scientist. He said something that made me think of you in this show. So I'm going to say it. We'll play it out right. He said when someone says that was meant to be right, he said,
00:45:53
Speaker
I don't believe things are meant to be. He said, what I believe is that something happens and we need to give it meaning and wrap a story around it. And the way we justify that to ourselves as we say that was meant to be, as opposed to just saying, I'm really glad that happened and I'm trying to make sense of it. So when he and I had that exchange and you and I first talked a couple of months ago, so I've been using on this for a couple of months, I thought about the title of your show and the meaning. And I thought something rather than nothing.
00:46:21
Speaker
We don't want things to mean nothing. We want things to mean something to us. And at times, they don't necessarily mean anything because it was unplanned or came out of nowhere. And so then we start wrapping a narrative around it. And I thought the something
00:46:37
Speaker
is the story we attached to things right that we don't want things that feel important us to be nothing i mean if something's important and it feels like it didn't carry any actual weight then you got the sort of paradox for the friction of well. If this isn't important why do i care so much i thought that's when we make it into something for ourselves but.
00:46:58
Speaker
Again, I'm not into destiny or fate, and this guy's a scientist. But when he said that, I thought, I'm going to see what they think about that on the podcast. What does Ken think about that? Because I thought that is a big thing. We make things something because we need them to mean something. And that's art, too, right? We need something to mean something. We're trying to figure out to go full callback to the beginning of our conversation. How do we express what we're trying to say? We make it into something.
00:47:23
Speaker
I think there's something there, a couple of
Philosophy and Perspective
00:47:26
Speaker
comments. I mean, I think there's something there, the core of it is meaning, right? And I think that was particularly important because I think that's what philosophy is really kind of, well, it is all about meaning, right? You know, whether we should imbue meaning into things or anything, but it is about
00:47:46
Speaker
That there's a value that there is something about why that we're here I'll tell you another thing too about these questions and this might be classical in a certain sense of like the idea of like Socrates with philosophy of you know Realizing what you don't know But if you asked me before going into doing these show and asking these particular questions during most episodes I would have say I would expect at a certain time that
00:48:16
Speaker
I'm simply going to be highly articulate about the question and the answers. For me, it's been an affirmation of approaches to the question that I don't know
00:48:37
Speaker
I just don't know and that's not my guess or anything. I just don't know anything more about the question, but I adore the drops in and from different ways. I had a guest say, I said, why is there something rather than nothing? And she said, women.
00:48:58
Speaker
That was it. If you ask a scientist and you're going to have that, or if you could have a direct conversation with a Buddhist,
00:49:14
Speaker
who is going to use the terms of something and nothing in a very different way where the nothingness, the lacking inherent existence is the fundamental point and our stuff, the somethings are about our trying to figure out what that thing is. So for me, it's been all those like ways of going in at the question and even the question, what is our, I see them so much more similar or they end up being more similar.
00:49:42
Speaker
About the what is art and I what i'm going to say is like I don't want to give a sense that like Like when you ask me the question you're always going to get a different answer But I see so much in passing of like how you're feeling at the time And when you say what is art you might have just seen I just saw the movie zone of venture the zone of interest um and and and
00:50:07
Speaker
You know, if I got out of the theater and I saw that movie, and I think it's a profound movie, and for me the sound design in particular with that, if you asked me that, what is art question after that, I might have a
00:50:23
Speaker
just a whole different conversation about, you know, what is art and also reflecting, you know, maybe if you have to went to a museum. So not that there aren't answers, but I see them as like approaches towards in kind of where somebody is at that point. And I don't think that's a comfortable thing for philosophy, because what philosophy
00:50:47
Speaker
Yeah, quote-unquote supposed to be is, Ken, what's the fucking answer? Ben, what is the answer? And I think that's a big part of it. And I see it with the something rather than nothing because I don't want to frame it perfectly for everybody. And I don't want to push it towards because I just don't know, brother.
00:51:14
Speaker
No, no, we don't know, right? It's funny because I'm someone who likes answers. One of my other kind of obsessions, I'm giving you all of them today, is trying to understand how things work. Always been a thing for me, like how does that work? How do you break it down? And again, I'm not that scientific and I couldn't like break down an engine, though I would love to know how an engine car engine works. But to your point,
00:51:37
Speaker
And you're not saying this exactly, but I'd love to see your reaction. You know, one of the things we all need to do is be able to sit with not knowing, right? That we can't know everything and that's okay, right? Like detaching ourselves from it. That's one thing, but your other point, which I really, really loved was you're not the same person every time you answer the same question. It's not just that you don't have the same guest every time. We're not the same people. You know, the same scientist I work with always reminds people that
00:52:05
Speaker
And this is an old line, maybe it's by Rumi. This is where I get really sketchy. But you don't step in the same water twice. You don't step in the same river twice because the river is not the same and you're not the same. So I've been thinking about that a lot lately because in that framework, then
00:52:24
Speaker
You're bound to keep changing and failing and falling short and being perfect is impossible, right? Like you're just not the same person you were five minutes ago and you'll be different in five minutes. Like now I've met you. I'm not going to be the same person I was when I came here today. Uh, now I find that very, very exciting. And now something's going to happen tomorrow or next Monday or a year from now. I'm going to think, God, Ken would fucking love that.
00:52:51
Speaker
You become part of the cells in how I'm going to see the world. Now I'm not the same at all.
Connection and Creativity
00:52:58
Speaker
I'll be thinking about that and next time Silence of the Lambs comes on, my association won't just be that I saw that by myself some Saturday afternoon, but that you and I talked about it. That excites me too. It also just shows we can keep expanding. Our universes aren't limited whatsoever.
00:53:14
Speaker
and we're going to fall short and we're going to fail and shit's not going to make sense and and and and okay okay well i think there's something there's something that's particular within our and i appreciate you know i appreciate everything you said i mean i think i think there's something within our
00:53:31
Speaker
in delving into it and enjoying it and not holding back. And the ideas of, for me, my day job is I'm a union organizer. No kidding. Yeah, I'm a union representative. So my great grandfather
00:53:49
Speaker
Uh, my mom said I was a union organizer turn of the last century in new york city. So problem. I respect him That's uh, that's our next episode. We'll obviously have a couple more episodes that will that will do but you know, um with with with within that um, there's a my brain has become wired towards
00:54:13
Speaker
towards the better, towards connecting people, towards that person knows this and that person knows that. And one of the fun things about the show is that
00:54:25
Speaker
union brother of mine, Peter Bauer, edits and produces. And we've worked together for this entire time. And at some point during the project, we said, holy shit, all we're doing is organizing all the time, right? Like, if you put an active piece into it, and, you know, why is it that I'll see something that the
00:54:48
Speaker
the thrift store and think about a guest from before. Oh my god, they love that. It's an organizing and it's a connecting of people. And I think once I put myself into that, you talked about the art life and thinking about that type of thing is to live artistically, not
00:55:07
Speaker
And to indulge yourself within that, and to say, this person knows that, and that person knows that, and this person can do this. And that's the way your brain is organizing the whole thing. And there's electricity, I think, in that for people. And everybody doesn't have to play ball. You and I know that. It's not like everybody has to be, you know, some guest you would get on.
00:55:29
Speaker
They'd be like, I did the interview for you. That's all cool, but they have their own thing. But sometimes there's a lot that you can organize and present. So to inhabit that space, there's tons of energy. One final example is I'm doing union work now. I did it in the mid-part of Oregon. I'm going to be doing more work, working with community colleges in the southern part.
00:55:57
Speaker
of Oregon. So I've gone to a couple campuses and starting this go to the art gallery now and now I see a name that somebody from southern Oregon and in two consecutive campuses I run into these
00:56:13
Speaker
Artemat machines which are old cigarette machines where you put five dollars in and you get a piece of art and I've run into those and I'm like the thread in the organizing is just going through so it presents an opportunity to interact and I love organizing. I love arts organizing and labor organizing and I've discovered that delve into it and not to make it
00:56:44
Speaker
overly complicated. I don't have to read a 25 page paper of the best way to connect to people if you encounter how to the best way is to connect folks. Do you feel about that same kind of thing of person to person and the energy and organization and art life?
00:57:03
Speaker
Well, first off, I love that you used the word electricity. That just got me excited. So there's that. Yeah, I think, you know, our brains, for the most part, are built to organize stuff, right? You know, I used to do a ton of communications work, and we actually had to research it. I'm no researcher. And you know, we talked a lot about framing. And framing is how your brain has a whole set of files.
00:57:24
Speaker
And it's already got information ready for you. And part of the job sometimes in communications is to say, I don't want you to go to that file. The file you have in your head is not the one I have. So there's that piece. The brain's already doing that. But you touched on something I think is sort of both undervalued and not explored enough, is that there is a certain type of person, a certain type of brain. We all do this to some extent that sees connections all the time. So whether we need to see them, they're there.
00:57:53
Speaker
and you know i'm not super spiritual but i also believe on a on a higher level that you know we're all connected in different ways it's hard to always see it but what i wanted to get to is the less sexy spiritual part which is someone like you is not only making the connections in your head but i'm guessing you want to connect the people and there's a big part of the art universe i mean really the whole universe but definitely the one we live in which is
00:58:17
Speaker
How can I connect this person and that person, right? Because if they can connect, who knows what they'll create. Sometimes it's just that they connect, then I'm doing everyone a favor because they're going to be magic together. But that to me is that electricity part. It's not just that we find ourselves charged by touching something.
00:58:32
Speaker
It's that then maybe we get two other people to connect. They're like, oh, look at this now. This is so much bigger than I realized. I think the other thing that's cool is discovering that those connections are already there, right? So there's an artist named Alfred Kazim. He's a writer. He's been dead for a long time. He was a Jewish guy.
00:58:51
Speaker
last century also. I'd never heard of him when I was younger. So I'm reading an interview with him, and he's got a book called A Walker in the City, which is one of his famous books. So I say to my dad, my Jewish New York dad, have you ever heard of Alfred Kazan? And he rolls his eyes and be like, did I raise you properly? And then I say, do you know the book A Walker in the City? And he literally pulls it off of the shelf. We're standing next to it. I've never seen it there. He goes, do I know it here? I'm bequeathing you my original copy of it.
00:59:18
Speaker
So then I start to read it. And as I read it, it reminds you of my grandfather, another poor Jew from New York, but even farther back. And so I call my grandfather and I say, I'm going to have to presume, you know, Alfred Kazin, but I'm going to ask anyway. And he said, Alfred Kazin, we used to go on double dates together.
00:59:36
Speaker
And I thought, this really awesome, amazing writer who's somewhat obscure, but beloved, every member of my family has some kind of connection to him. And I thought, that's how the world works. That's pretty exciting to me. And that's a whole kind of electricity too. That's exciting. And in case, and I don't know what's happened recently, but a big name.
00:59:57
Speaker
And I didn't realize that. That's the other thing you and I have been touching around being fanboys or into energy. You read about someone who everybody else you know already knows. They're like, you didn't discover anything, bro. You're just catching up with us. So I've also tried to embrace that. Okay, time to catch up. That excites me. I didn't realize I was so far behind.
01:00:18
Speaker
I tell you, one thing I wanted to mention for just letting you drop some ways for listeners to come in contact with you. Asking the big questions is really fun, but on a recent episode with
01:00:36
Speaker
with Philip Barish that I had away from trying to explain to ask something rather than nothing and try to explain away, which is fun and awesome. Something happened where he was talking about his departed wife and she had she had asked
01:00:59
Speaker
him to create a testament that she was trying to express to him as she was dying about what he called the covenant of the marriage, but to express the stages. So put it within the Christian stages of the cross, her journey.
01:01:21
Speaker
And so, you know, talking about these just incredible, important, and moving things. And then, as we discussed, the most profound questions comes up at this time talking about
01:01:40
Speaker
this kind of the number three, which is important with Christian thinking and the Trinity. And at the time it was doing, the time on the counter for the podcast was 3333. And you'll like this
Future Collaborations and Closing
01:01:54
Speaker
part. For some reason, I was wearing a Larry Bird Celtics jersey with the number 33 at the same time. And I'd be like,
01:02:03
Speaker
Yo, I can talk about this question for a little while, but how come there's threes all popping up when he said three on there? And I'm like, okay, I'll back off. I don't know, but that's good enough for me.
01:02:14
Speaker
Right, we don't understand everything, but there it is. And Larry Bird, God bless you. Well, and then Larry Bird. So, Ben, it's obvious we'll do a couple more episodes in the future. And you're going to come on my show, right? So we can break you down with all my big questions.
01:02:34
Speaker
Yeah, I'll be over it. And I'm very, very, very honored to make it to your show. But Ben, tell the listeners right now there's different ways to kind of interact with the things that you've done, but really kind of lay it out for folks, where to find you, talk about the podcast, different ways. How do you like folks who are interested in what we've been talking about and your work in the book? Let folks know what to do.
01:03:04
Speaker
Yeah, right on, man. Thank you so much for that. Whenever I have a guest, I'm like, and now I'm going to make sure you promote your stuff. Don't want to be pure about that. Want all the hype. Thank you. I have a mothership, tanzerben.com. Everything you would want to know about me, which sounds like a very nightmarish loaded thing.
01:03:23
Speaker
You can get to at the website tanzerban.com I'm very active though. I'm not going to call it acts still active on twitter and on instagram. I enjoy those spaces a lot Even though they feel more confusing than they used to
01:03:39
Speaker
recently jumped on to tiktok so you can find me in all the places artistic people are trying to make sense of i'm definitely a sort of. All platform approach because people have their own things so you find me how you find me up the new book the missing is coming out from seven one three books definitely give a big shout out.
01:03:56
Speaker
to those folks in Leo and Chuck, the founder and publisher and editor of my particular book. He's an awesome guy. They do great books. And I want to make a plug. This probably sounds very self-serving, but of course I want everyone to buy my book. But if you love books, please just go buy independent books, right? This is just a plug for independent anything. I'll be OK if you buy someone else's book. And if it's someone I like, all the better. But 713 Books is great. We will be pre-order soon. You know, it's funny with publishers, this has changed so much.
01:04:25
Speaker
Bookshop.org is a great place to go to I'm not live there yet But we will be soon and then we'll be on Amazon if that's your jam No judgment here better to sell books and not sell books So yeah, please check that out and then the podcast and thank you for asking this podcast will change your life Which is sort of my long-running long-form interview show primarily with authors but with any story and tellers or ideators or podcasters like
01:04:52
Speaker
You can always access it at my website, but like you, lucky enough that you can access it anywhere. If you want to go on Spotify, go on Apple, it's there. Please take a look. In any of this, please give me a shot. Let me know what you think. It's really fun to connect with people around these things, but that's probably enough to throw at people except to say, if your jam is the business side of my life or your life, I'm active at LinkedIn also.
01:05:17
Speaker
I use it, it's been very helpful to me as an artist, but I'm also an artist slash coach slash workshop guy, got to pay bills, and so I'm active there as well. You can definitely find me if you want, I'd be thrilled to connect.
01:05:31
Speaker
I love it, Ben. And on the bit, you know, started with books, probably, and talking books, you know, two blocks from where I am in Albany, Oregon, a good friend of mine, Abe Richman, browser's bookstore, and talk about on the show here or there, but, you know, in the used bookstore and an important, you know how important they are,
01:05:58
Speaker
important store and I gotta tell you like the store reopened pandemic and Abe came on and We interact regularly and it's it's it's the type of casual conversations in a way of living that is is just so deeply important to me because You know you go to the bookstore like you said and checking out the things and he has eccentric stuff in the back and he'll come running out say hey can't look what somebody brought in you know all that type of stuff and
01:06:28
Speaker
So folks, you'll be able to find Ben's book at a browser's bookstore as well because Abe stocks and supports something rather than nothing podcast, I guess.
01:06:43
Speaker
And Abe also has a zine section, which I've contributed heavily to. So if your brain kind of vibes with that type of stuff, but I just want to give a shout out to Abe as well and let you know about that, Ben, browsers, bookstores.
01:07:01
Speaker
in Albany, great supporter of the show. And, you know, I'll do an episode, do an episode, I'll go in and it will be like, hey, how about that Ben episode? And we're chatting about it. And that's art, you know, that's art, that's the arts organizing and not to be, you know, too much about it. But I don't know, I'm just gonna recommend that it's a decent way to go about your day.
01:07:28
Speaker
Look, you know, one thing you'll learn with me, and I hope we get to stay friends after this, nothing is too much for me. I can't speak for your listeners or my listeners. I want all of it. And I really appreciate that. I'll send them a thank you note.
01:07:40
Speaker
I am borderline obscure most of the time. One of the great things that has served me as an author are the independent bookstores in my life. I've had some great champions. I mean, I'm just going to do a quick shout out if you don't mind. So make your browsers. But here in Chicago, the bookseller, one of my earliest champions, the owner there, Susie T. We have a wonderful new bookstore, Exile in Bookville, Javier and Kristen, where I'm going to do the launch of this new book.
01:08:06
Speaker
Wonderful, wonderful people. Volumes bookstore here. Quimby's, which has a great zine section for you, sir, if you want to get some zines there. But, you know, I've been blessed with those things. People have been extremely kind to me. I mean, I hope I've returned it, right? But man, partially I have any career at all because those bookstores are like, okay, we don't know who the hell you are, but let's get your books in here. You get in here, you know, let's talk business and make connections. So I've been really lucky with that. Very lucky.
01:08:32
Speaker
And I can't let you go because you said, Quimby's in a obscure fact, and I can't speak to the stock level or whether it's still on the shelf, but the rear something rather than nothing. Podcast scene number one.
01:08:49
Speaker
issue was on the shelves at Quimby's and I walked into Quimby's for the first time maybe two or three years ago when I was in Chicago and I'm like I could not love this store anymore because I was wowed. I did not know what was in there and it's even special enough where I remember finding
01:09:13
Speaker
you know, the obscure books for your obscure interest. And I remember buying the book, Kathy Acker in Seattle, which was very particular about Kathy Acker's time and the Riot Girls and the packed NW, specific Northwest. And hell yeah, on the Quimby's.
01:09:32
Speaker
Quimby's, I always thought, and still believe, Quimby's for what you're describing, it is Mecca in the Midwest. There are many, many wonderful stores and places for obscure and cool stuff, but, and let's give a shout out, I'm a long time friend now, and a former guest on my show, Liz Mason, who's been managing the store for years and years.
01:09:50
Speaker
He's a goddess and a doian of all things zine. I actually take one of my college classes to the store and we do a zine making workshop as part of my larger storytelling push and Liz leads it. So I'm in the store all the time. And now next time I go, I'm going to be looking for your zine for sure. Because that's great. You can see if it's still there. I'm going to go look. I'm excited about that. Final point, I actually think, and I could be wrong on this on the timing,
01:10:18
Speaker
It might have been a couple hours ago, but Quimby's has done or does. There's a Saturday Instagram live. I forget what time it is for you over there too. I know a lot of times I'll get the alert on my Instagram and I'll be like, I'm just going to sit back and listen to what Quimby's is serving up, which is fresh on the show. I got that notice right before I came out. My phone said,
01:10:49
Speaker
Para parallel lives, Chicago and a city I love in out here in Albany, Oregon. I'll be taking a trip over to a browser's bookstore, but so excited about your book, Ben. And I'm so excited to pop onto your podcast and wanted to give you just a great thanks, you know, for sharing the energy, sharing the space and thank you for kind words. And for you, it's really inspiring to
01:11:10
Speaker
This is going live. I ignored it because I was coming to find you, but yeah.
01:11:17
Speaker
to talk to you about and to indulge in sharing similar interests. I find sometimes folks will drop off and be like, oh, that's your thing. No, freak out. Freak out on the art that you like.
01:11:34
Speaker
I really appreciate this. I want to thank you for doing it. I want to thank you for bringing a fantastic podcast in the universe. You have some really interesting guests. I mean, I always think, where would I meet that person? I've really enjoyed listening to your show and I listen while I'm running, by the way.
01:11:49
Speaker
It's a great pleasure. But I also want to say it is wonderful to connect with someone with similar interests. You know, all of a sudden you're an adult. It's not that you can't do it, but it is more involved. So one of the beauties of being podcasters and authors and artists and going to go back to your thing about connecting is like, oh, we have that in common right on. Who knew? I just want you to find you. I have no idea. So look it. That's a beautiful thing.
01:12:13
Speaker
All right. I got to tell you, it's been a great pleasure. Like I said, brother, everybody, Ben Tanzer, check out the the Missing, the podcast. And, you know, maybe if you drop into the art, go excited about the art like we were talking about. Indulge yourself if you haven't for a while.
01:12:35
Speaker
Do it. At least Ben and I is gonna say that your life and your day will be improved. Not to proselytize too much, but I'm a true believer and I know Ben. So, everybody and Ben, thanks. And I will see you on your show in the near future. And thanks for the invite, brother. Right on, man. Appreciate you. Thanks so much.
01:13:07
Speaker
This is something rather than nothing.
01:13:38
Speaker
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01:14:05
Speaker
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