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95: The Gospel According To U2 (Part 3)
54 Plays6 months ago
Pastor Chuck Schlie and Ryan Pfendler joined Jill Devine to continue the conversation about the sermon series Messiah is currently in the middle of, The Gospel According To U2.
Chuck and Ryan discussed their initial reaction to the idea of the sermon series and what they learned while preparing for the series.
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Transcript
Christianity and Judgment
00:00:00
Speaker
The following podcast is a Jill Devine Media production. Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members-only mindset. This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way.
Introduction to 'Normal Goes a Long Way'
00:00:17
Speaker
I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible.
00:00:24
Speaker
Yet here I am hosting a podcast about faith. The normal goes a long way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation.
00:00:39
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of Normal Goes a Long Way.
Welcoming Guests: Ryan Finler & Pastor Chuck
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm Jill Devine with Ryan Finler and Pastor Chuck Schlieb. Both have been on the podcast several times and now you're back. But it has been a while since the two of you have been on. Yes, and it's great to be back. Thank you. You've been busy. We've been busy doing our stuff. Yeah, we got a lot going on.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah, you do.
Exploring Gospel through U2
00:01:02
Speaker
We have been talking about pop culture, specifically the gospel according to YouTube. Pastor Jim Mueller was on the last two episodes to talk about why we as a church at Messiah decided to go this route. And for me, I mean, I'm all in. This is my thing. You give me music and correlate it with Jesus and I am resonating. I want to know
00:01:29
Speaker
Did that feel awkward for you two? We use a lot of you too. You start noticing when you say you two more. And I'm like, oh no, that's not it. Did it resonate with the both of you or did you have trouble digging into this?
00:01:46
Speaker
I'll go first. We did a couple years ago the Gospel According to Johnny Cash, and I read a book that was very helpful by Richard Beck called Trains and Murderer in Jesus. And he went through a bunch of Johnny Cash songs and, you know, kind of did all our work for us. So I was like, okay, this, we could use this, this would be really helpful. And then two years later, Pastor Jim said, hey, let's do you too. And I went,
00:02:15
Speaker
Oh, okay. You know, I was hesitant because I didn't know that much about you two other than I like some of their songs. Right. And I remember where I was as a college kid or a high school kid going, Oh man, these guys are cool. But I didn't know how Christian they were or what these songs are about because the songs are also kind of confusing.
00:02:40
Speaker
and political. Yes. And political. And they don't just jump out. Like, um, it's not over the top Jesus stuff. It's like hidden. And so, um, I was a little nervous about it. I was hoping to maybe preach one or two and to give the rest to Jim or Ryan. That's what I was trying to do. But it turns out I did
Overcoming Hesitation in Sermon Series
00:03:03
Speaker
half of them. I was going to say, did you do the most? Yeah, that's usually how that worked.
00:03:08
Speaker
But I also say this, I was thinking this over when we sometimes we go into sermon series and I think this is going to be great. I can see the light, you know, and they just kind of turn out okay. And then most of the time when I'm hesitant or I go, I don't know about this. I, uh, you know, I'm worried about this.
00:03:32
Speaker
Those are usually the better ones because it forces me to dig deep and get uncomfortable too. And that's what this one did. I'm coming out of this one where I'm like, this was one of my favorites, but I didn't walk in that way, but I walked out that way.
Skepticism of Younger Generations
00:03:50
Speaker
What about you, Ryan? I feel like I already know your answer based on our very first week. It's very interesting to hear the different perspectives between the younger and the older generation. Yeah. Well, and I think people think that the generational difference is because of you to the band. I think it's more to do with
00:04:10
Speaker
Young people, millennials, Gen Z, we're growing up in a world where Christian celebrities are just, their secrets are exposed all the time. We talked about this right before we came on. It's almost like we're waiting for the day. You see the mega church pastor and you're like, okay, when's this stuff gonna come out? And when is he gonna be busted?
00:04:28
Speaker
And I mean, just two weeks ago, an author we read in college, a bunch got fired for doing some things he shouldn't have done. And so I think I naturally have this hesitation to look at a person or look at a band or look at a whatever is outside of scripture as the example. And so that was my hesitation. And I think younger people in general, we're just living in that world. So you point to you too, and you think,
00:04:56
Speaker
Well, how can I trust these guys when every other celebrity Christian person gets busted? But a couple of things changed my mindset. Number one, people I trust like Pastor Chuck. When I heard that Chuck was into it, I'm like, okay, Chuck is in a schmuck. Yeah, exactly. You didn't give it a shlee guarantee, but I could have felt it coming.
00:05:23
Speaker
But when you gave this a seal of approval, I'm like, okay, there's probably something here worth digging into.
Targeting Audiences with Pop Culture
00:05:28
Speaker
And I think what it's doing for me is I'm still a young guy on the team. I'm learning how sermon series work, how they're planned, the thought behind them. I'm really curious. I was really curious as we went through it to see, okay, how are people going to respond to this? You know, I'm looking for, okay, is a series like this good? Should we do something like this in the future? It seems like,
00:05:53
Speaker
people are liking it. And so it's challenging me to think, okay, maybe my hesitation, my fear, I wasn't necessarily wrong, but it didn't play out the way I thought. And I got a song that I really wanted to do. That was... Would you like to... We'll link all the messages to normalgoesalongway.com, but the song that you got, go ahead and explain.
00:06:22
Speaker
Uh, it's pride in the name of love. And everybody knows that song. Yeah. I feel like. It's a good one. And I should say too, I grew up listening to you two, but they were the band that I had to secretly listen to cause I was worried I'd be made fun of. Really? Cause they're, you know, your parents band. So I will explain on that very first Sunday that we did this and Chuck, you were not here. You were in Arkansas visiting your son.
00:06:49
Speaker
So we had a U2 cover band, U2 hype, and I remember just being so excited and I was in the back and I was dancing and singing and I look at, Ryan, you were actually into it, but your wife and then a couple other people on staff were just, it was like they were tortured.
00:07:10
Speaker
what are you guys doing? Like what is wrong with you? And they're like, this, we just don't know this music. And that was like, I feel so old all of a sudden. So there's all these things I was like, Oh, is this not a universal band where? Right. Johnny Cash was like just instant because yes, there's something for old people, young people, middle people. And because just he's just one of those icons. You two is like, okay, that's a little farther out. But what's interesting, I think now there's this, we haven't,
00:07:39
Speaker
Did we bring it up with Pastor Jim? I can't remember, but I, the movies sing too. Have you guys heard about this? Okay. So it's all based on Fano as a different, most of it is, but different characters. So my kids who are five and seven are hearing these songs and they think they're new.
00:08:00
Speaker
or that they're being done wrong because they're done different in the movie. And that's really cool. So there's this segment over here, and then your wife, Ryan, and some of the other people we work with that are just... And then I think for me and you, Chuck, we get it. I do love this band. They're not my top five, but I could tell you all their songs probably. One way I felt that helped me approach it was
00:08:30
Speaker
Some series are targeted to specific people, not that they're not for everyone, but there's a really specific target group in mind. When we do a parenting series, I mean, we're hoping the kids that are there learn how to be good parents, but we're specifically targeting parents that day and wanting them, you know, we've done things like that before. When we're doing a marriage series, we want the single people to learn what a good marriage looks like, but really we also want our married people to really take something from it.
00:09:00
Speaker
This might be a series that resonates more with our Jill and Chuck age crowd, right? But I think it helps our younger people to say, huh, okay, there's a pop culture reference and I can connect Jesus to it. And maybe I'm not doing that with you too, because I don't listen to them, but maybe I can do that with, you know, who's a good example? Oh, not Childish Gambino, who's a good millennial reference.
00:09:27
Speaker
Chance the Rapper is a great example of someone who tries to weave Christian influences into his music.
U2's Christian Influence
00:09:34
Speaker
Okay, I didn't know that. Yeah. Chuck, you just you love to read and you right now in front of me have five books. These books you went to to help with your sermon and this is what you do for all of your sermon messages, right? Right, which is really great because I am
00:09:56
Speaker
awesome job as I think about it which is I get paid money to read and sit in my office and think and write and edit and you know I'm like what a great gig this is I can because I'm a learner so
00:10:15
Speaker
I'm going to try to read everything I can possibly read about you two and learn something and hopefully communicate it so that people can learn something too. But I would, um, I want to point back to this, uh, the concept of the message series, whether it's you two or whatever the thing is, it's not a sermon about you too.
00:10:37
Speaker
It's not, that is a jumping off point so that we can get to the real hero. Bono might be heroic. Some of these other people, Johnny Cash, might have heroic moments, but it's not about Johnny Cash, and it's not about you two. It's about Jesus. And all we're doing is opening the door so that people could go, oh, I'm in the YouTuber, I'm in the Johnny Cash, or I'm into parenting, or whatever the topic is.
00:11:05
Speaker
so that ultimately we can highlight Jesus. It's a good clarification. It's a conversation starter, not what the conversation's about. So that's why when I usually get nervous going into things, I'm like, I don't know anything about you two enough to speak for 20, 30 minutes.
00:11:23
Speaker
Well, then I go, hold on, you're not really doing that. It's not a message about you two. It's a message that's using you two as an on-ramp to get to Jesus. And whether that's through you two or a movie or whatever, man, that feels good when you can connect. Yeah, it's a lot of fun to put those pieces together.
00:11:52
Speaker
So I'd like to know about some of the stuff that you've read and researched about you two in regard to Jesus, anything scripture related that you were just like, whoa, I've never thought of this or insert whatever that you think the listener would like to know about.
Bono's Musical Ambition and Christianity
00:12:13
Speaker
Okay. I think for me, this is what I was talking to Ryan early on when he was like, I don't know about this. And this is after I've read a thousand pages and I'm like, Oh, this is good stuff. You know, um, I didn't realize how Christian they were and only three out of four of them are.
00:12:33
Speaker
Okay. The basis and Clayton is not. He's not. No, I didn't know that hardcore atheist. He's more like agnostic, like, I don't know about this. Okay. But the other three really are. And that's an interesting story about how they, you know, got started. And maybe we could talk about that in a little bit, but I didn't realize how big of Christians they were. I just didn't either.
00:13:00
Speaker
So this is to his father when they're just kind of starting out. He says, God gives us our strength and a joy that does not depend on drink or drugs.
00:13:10
Speaker
This strength will, I believe, be the quality that will take us to the top of the music business. I hope our lives will be a testament to the people who follow us and to the music business where never before have so many lost and sorrowful people gathered in one place pretending to have a good time. It is our ambition to make more than good music.
00:13:34
Speaker
Come on, that's cool. And that's when they're just starting out. This is just when they're getting going. And he's like, oh, we're going to do more than be a great band. We're going to use our Christianity, our God-given spirit to make a difference.
00:13:52
Speaker
And doesn't that kind of give you goosebumps thinking about the people that have been to our church because of their love for you two or their wife or their husband or because whatever that may not have strong beliefs but those eight weeks have now had them starting to ask more questions?
00:14:17
Speaker
That's exactly what that is.
Contemporary Culture in Sermons
00:14:20
Speaker
Yeah. And this is going back 20, 30 years ago. There used to be these things and maybe there still are in pockets. I just don't care to listen anymore about worship wars. It was called worship wars. And it was about the concept of, can you bring contemporary music into the church? And if you did, you were church light or you were just not
00:14:44
Speaker
being, uh, you know, good church, I guess. I don't know what the big argument was. I was just kind of like, why haven't that? Like if this helps bring somebody into the doors and this, this helps in some way get them closer to Jesus. Yes.
00:15:04
Speaker
Awesome, let's go. And then they get stuck listening to me talk for 20 or 30 minutes, but it's not me. They're gonna hear God's word and there's power in God's word. And so the Holy Spirit will do the work. So I'm a big fan of using culture, different kind of music, whatever it takes to either bring people in or help people so they can open their ears and their eyes and see Jesus.
00:15:33
Speaker
That's the goal. And I referenced this with Pastor Jim. It kind of goes back to something that Ryan, you and I talked about the whole 99 and one, how there can be some complaints on that. And it's like, no, oh my gosh. Yeah.
00:15:49
Speaker
I know I am in a safe space with everyone that works here. So when I feel like a stupid question comes up or a stupid moment or whatever, I don't feel that way when I ask, but I think I had said to Laura Fleetwood one day,
00:16:05
Speaker
I said, oh my gosh, I have now realized that a lot of Christian music is using lines from scripture. I had no clue. And now that I know those things and I was like, I get it. I understand it now. And so that's my connection.
Sermon on Sin and Human Shortcomings
00:16:21
Speaker
And that's why I'm so passionate about this whole series is because
00:16:25
Speaker
I'm connecting more. I remember when and I and we all wrestle with the whole sin and everything but on Sunday Bloody Sunday which you preached on check which is one of my favorite U2 songs when you were talking about
00:16:42
Speaker
Was it Paul who kept saying I want to do the right thing and I keep doing the bad thing I'm paraphrasing obviously but and I want to do the right thing again And I keep doing the bad thing and then I get mad about the bad thing and I keep doing it And but that's what I do and it just makes you go. Okay. I if that's what's happening I know I'm not alone. Like there's still hope for me. Oh, there's a lot of hope. Yes I love that. It's called the you fight it in Romans chapter 7 and it's called the
00:17:11
Speaker
Romans 7 dilemma, the concept of we want to do what's right, you know, we want to follow God's will, we have this in our head, okay, I'm going to keep a mouth shut, I'm not going to go there. And sure enough, we blow it, go there, we say what we shouldn't say, we do what we shouldn't do. And then we just tie ourselves on a knot, we get all guilted up about it.
00:17:36
Speaker
And that's why he asked the question, who will rescue me? Who will save me? And then he gives the answer in all caps, thanks be to God through Jesus Christ, my Lord. I got to preach a lot of gospel that day, because I just want, I just teed off. I'm like, it was so good. It's not about your awesomeness. It's about Jesus awesomeness. It's not about your ability to keep promises, about Jesus ability to keep promises, not about you doing this. It's about Jesus doing this. That's what we need to hear.
00:18:06
Speaker
I think it's a great stopping point right now for this episode, and then I invite you to join us in two weeks as we continue the conversation. In that episode, we're going to talk a little bit more about some of the items both Ryan and Chuck learned that
00:18:22
Speaker
Was really fascinating to them, but they didn't get a chance to actually preach on it on Sunday mornings So come back in two weeks and you can check out all of our u2 Sermon series at normal goes a long way comm