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97: Are Unicorns Mentioned In The Bible?
68 Plays4 months ago
Dr. David McDonald made a return to the podcast to tackle a number of subject matters, including unicorn and mythical creatures in the Bible.
David is a pastor, teacher, and lecturer in colleges and seminaries all over the world. His work with Westwinds Community Church has been featured in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Time magazine. David was appointed to the first-ever post-doctoral fellowship at George Fox Evangelical Seminary, and continues to integrate spiritual truth with sharp social analysis in his private work as a speculative theologian. In 2019, David founded the Fossores Chapter House, the world’s first headquarters for Christian ministerial innovation, where preachers, leaders, and entrepreneurs gather from all over the world to do their best work.
The previous episodes David was on:
16: Dr. David McDonald Addresses Why Jesus Had To Die
BONUS (16b): Going Deeper With Dr. David McDonald
17: Two Pastors Discuss The Resurrection Of Jesus
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Normal Goes A Long Way is brought to you by Messiah St. Charles: https://messiahstcharles.org/
Two Kids and A Career: https://www.jilldevine.com/podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
The following podcast is a Jill Devine Media production. Christianity has become known for judgy people, strange words, ancient stories, confusing rules, and a members-only mindset. This is why I stayed away from the church for so long, but it's not supposed to be that way. I'm Jill Devine, a former radio personality with three tattoos, a love for a good tequila, and who's never read the entire Bible. Yet here I am hosting a podcast about faith. The Normal Goes Along Way podcast is your home for real conversations with real people using real language about how faith and real life intersect. Welcome to the conversation. Welcome to Normal
Meet Dr. David McDonald
00:00:41
Speaker
Goes Along Way. I'm Jill Devine along with Laura Fleetwood and our special guest, Dr. David McDonald. This isn't your first time, but let me refresh the listener. You joined us in 2022.
00:00:54
Speaker
The first episode, episode 16, Dr. David McDonald addresses why Jesus had to die. Remember that conversation? No, I don't remember that at all. But I like you so much, so I'm so excited to go back and listen to Well, here's how we were doing those episodes. Laura would do the interviewing, and then I would come in for a bonus episode, so bonus 16b. And so what I would do is I would listen to what you guys were talking about, and then I would ask my questions. And then you joined us for episode 17. Two pastors discuss the resurrection of Jesus with our lead pastor here at Messiah,
00:01:30
Speaker
Pastor Jim Mueller who's on the podcast all the time. He's a good friend of yours and he is the reason why we are speaking with you today. So welcome back. Thank you. Thank you. I'm i'm so concerned that I can't remember these prior episodes. That's all right. You got a lot going on. ah ah Yes, we should mention that David um is here because he, well, you did a lot here at Messiah. You led a conversation at the Men's Theological Pub, which we're going to talk about today, all about monsters in the Bible. Yeah, very excited. So we're going to cover that for anybody who didn't ah get to go to that or for us ladies who were not invited to that particular event. And then you also led the Men's Conference.
00:02:11
Speaker
So we talked about biblical manhood. So um we're just going to get some further insight from you today. And it's so great to have you here in person in the studio instead of over zoom. Yeah. No, maybe that's why I can't remember anything. Yeah. Having an out of body experience or an in body experience. And now I get to be in in body in church. so It is. ah ah I remembered Laura, when you were telling me we were going to interview back in those first episodes and you're like, you're going to love talking to him. You are going to love everything. And I just remember that first time and I was like, man, your voice, everything about you was just, it intrigued me and it intrigued me to the point where I was like, I want to learn more. And I just loved your approach to how you talk about Jesus, everything that you do.
00:03:02
Speaker
And it just feels just like this podcast, normal. Like we're just a normal guy talking to me about, you know, normal things that have happened to help me understand. And so I think the guys here at Messiah really benefited from you. But of course we're, we're nosy and we're like, tell us what happened. Tell us what has happened. Asking my husband, don't worry about it, honey. It's fine. I'm like, what's happened? So we hooked you and got you back in.
Biblical Creatures: Myth or Reality?
00:03:31
Speaker
Yes, so give us the 15, 20 minute version of your monster talk, which you probably spent 60 minutes on. um But ah really, there are stories of unicorns and griffins and monsters in the Bible. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the Bible is an amazing document. I mean, i mean
00:03:51
Speaker
Sometimes, sometimes we grow up in church and you get bored, you know, and one of the best things you can do is get bored in church because all of the ways that you have to un-bore yourself are Christ honoring theologically centered ways, you know. And so as a little kid growing up in church and I'm trying to stay awake, I i would do little word studies, you know, and my dad gave me a good study Bible when I was maybe six or seven, which is not an age-appropriate gift, but nevertheless, a useful one for me.
Angels: Beyond Common Perceptions
00:04:21
Speaker
And so I started out reading up everything I could find in the Bible on angels.
00:04:26
Speaker
And so then you read, you begin to understand that some of the angels in the Bible look like people, but some of the angels in the Bible look like wheels within wheels and, um, the opening we call them. And, and some of the angels are covered in eyes and some of the angels have a bunch of wings. And so you go like, these don't look like a people and they don't look like B naked babies, which is typically how we conceptualize them, you know? And so you're like, I don't even know what a wheel within wheel kind of creature would look like. And so you can Google and see all kinds of different, you know, images and shapes. And I don't even know what an angel covered in eyes would look like. And I think my favorite conceptualization is that is that they're almost like butterflies, you know, that six winged angels covered in eyes. I mean, you look at a butterfly and we look at butterfly wings and the pattern on a butterfly wing looks like an eye.
00:05:19
Speaker
And so you go, Oh, well, maybe they saw something like that. Maybe that was the closest, um, parallel they could find in earthly life. So that's kind of fun. So fun to think about angels being, I mean, there's no size given to them there at the very least ah on a different dimension of reality. So angels could be bigger or smaller, or if there's as we think as many as 17 quantum dimensions of reality, angels could exist in, you know, the, 13 that we don't have access to outside of our three in time. So you go like, sure, but it's just speculation. We don't know. What we do know is that sometimes angelic creatures are conceptualized as hybrids. They have components of them that are like eagles or like lions or like human beings or like oxen or bulls. I mean, these are the four living creatures in Ezekiel. These are the living creatures that show up in John's revelation. And any kind of hybrid or composite creature is mythologically a griffin. Like that's that's the short because, you know, composite creatures, kind of a mouthful, hybridized creatures, kind of a mouth. We just call them griffins. You know, maybe it's got the head of an eagle in the body of a lion. Maybe it's got whatever else.
00:06:30
Speaker
You know, griffins or chimeras, those are the what we call them in myth. So there's tons of griffins in scripture. And probably um our best bet is that is to is to think of those as cherubs. Those are the cherubim, or the griffin-like creatures of heaven. Now, there's no uniform um synthesis for angelology, like there's multiple Jewish angelologies, there's multiple Christian angelologies. So some people will say that but these hybridized angelic creatures, these griffins, they're not angels, they're just divine beings or they're part of the divine council or I don't know, that's that's above my pay grade. I mean, we could have those arguments and those conversations, but for me, I just go, it's easiest to just refer to them as a category of angels or angelic beings. So you' you've got already, you got these wheels within wheels, you get these little sort of butterfly creatures, you you've got the the cherubim who are maybe like like griffins or chimeras. You have seraphim, which are six-winged angels and the word seraph literally means fiery flying serpent.
00:07:34
Speaker
So you you do a tiny little bit of digging and you realize that seraphim are six-winged dragons. That's a fiery flying serpent. You think maybe, and there's some evidence to suggest that Satan, who was the chief of the worshiping angels according to some sources, was then the great dragon. you know and um Then you wonder how to how to dragons have six wings. I mean, a little baby wings on the side of their head to cover their eyes or but again, butterflies or maybe dragonflies are good are good sort of examples. Those have those have four wings and and and enough to know that that it's not going to look goofy. So even when you just start with angels and again, we don't know. not Nobody's nobody's got a taxonomy of angelic hierarchy.
Speculative Angelology and Imagination in Faith
00:08:16
Speaker
That's any reliable angelologies. Highly speculative, but it's fun to speculate.
00:08:21
Speaker
Because the more we take the biblical material and the more we play with it and we imagine it, the more we get a sense of God's otherness, of God's grandeur, of God's transcendence, of God's glory, the more we're caught up into the fact that there are certain things that we can't see or measure or fully know or comprehend. We have to be open to the fact that there are limits to our understanding. And just like I, as a theologian, don't understand anything about quantum physics, I don't understand anything about but biology. I barely know how many toes I have. Right. So it's just good practice to know there's some things I don't yet know. And some of those things we can puzzle out and some of those things we just have to um um do the best we can. I don't want to say take it on faith. That seems too cheap, but do the best we can. That's what we got.
00:09:00
Speaker
So I have a question about angels because my understanding of angels is that they're God's messengers. That's kind of what I've are always heard. but But if you're expanding kind of the the type of angel in my mind already. And so in scripture, what do we see these creatures doing? Yeah, great question. um Well, a ah a beginning understanding of of all the stuff that angels or angelic beings do in the scripture would would be that they're messengers. I mean, that's what the Greek word angelos means. It means messenger.
00:09:32
Speaker
But of course you have angelic messengers and then you have people messengers. That's why, like in John's revelation, the seven letters to the seven churches are always addressed to the angel of the church in you know Smyrna or whatever. um But that angel could could have been a ah bishop, could have been a presbyter, could have been an overseer, because in Greek it just says to the messenger of the church in Smyrna. So there's some ambiguity there. but yeah But yeah, I mean, angels show up and deliver messages from God all the time. I mean, you think of Gabriel announcing to to Mary that she was going to conceive and bear the savior of the world. You think of the multiple angels that show up throughout John's revelation who pass on messages. One angel is really big. I mean, we we get the picture that he's he's so massive that one foot sits on the the coast of one continent and the other foot sits on the coast of another continent. And so you have these these wild creatures, but then you also have angels that are warriors. ah Michael, the archangel who contends against
00:10:27
Speaker
and the Satan and his adversaries. It's mentioned in Daniel and also Revelation, I think maybe John too, or maybe one of the gospels. and um Thank God for Google, because we can find those answers. Yeah, you can find them quick. Take your time. Do your research, people. Me, I'm just talking on a podcast. you ah and so So, I mean, angels do a lot of things. I mean, all throughout John's revelation, they worship, they bow down, they, you know, angels govern God's throne chariot to the Merkava throne chariot that that sort of bears the almighty around the heavens and interpenetrates heaven and earth. And it just, they do a lot.
Guardian Angels and Doctrinal Debates
00:11:03
Speaker
They're very busy. they They got a lot going on, you know, they'll fit you in if they can, but who knows?
00:11:07
Speaker
So do you think we have guardian angels? Yeah, you know, the Catholics have made a big deal out of that. And ah there's some evidence to suggest we might. I don't know that that's an airtight doctrine. i You know, we we talk sometimes about having open handed doctrines and closed hand doctrines, you know, and the open handed doctrines are the ones that we go. Yeah, maybe, maybe. We see some of that in there, kind of ish, sort of. And of course, every tradition has their open-handed doctrines, you know, whether it's stuff like speaking in tongues or the gifts of the Holy Spirit or our views about women and ministry or something about angels. I mean, those that's dispensationalism, the end times. Those are all stuff that we're like, we don't but don't really know. You can have strongly held opinions about it and you should
00:11:51
Speaker
I think if you're going to believe something, you might as well believe it and substantiate it as best you can. I mean, you know, believe your beliefs, but those are not on the same level as, say, the authority of scripture, ah the incarnation of Jesus, you know, the immutability of God, just those those sort of foundational doctrines, are what we call closed hand doctrines. You know, we're willing to fight over them all, you know, knock your teeth out if you get out of line, that kind of thing. So, it's okay if I choose to continue to believe that I have a guardian angel. and My guardian angel's name is Marv. he's ah yeah He's missing a few teeth. I've put him through hell. His poor wings are just torn to shreds. He's got a trumpet and it's bent and he's so grumpy about it. I love that you've named your angel. That is awesome. Okay, well, one of the things that piqued my interest when you were talking about
00:12:41
Speaker
you know, these monsters and I know something that was brought up, unicorns. Yeah. What? Because my girls might be a little bit more invested then, if they know about these unicorns. The Unicorn Princess Bible. Yes. Yeah. Well, i remember, the Bible's not written in English. and Originally, it's written in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. And then, of course, there's no there's no one copy of the Bible, right? I mean, it's not even one book. It's 66 books or compilations of 66 books even Even books like Isaiah, we we don't really think Isaiah was one book. Our best scholars tell us that Isaiah is probably two or maybe even as many as four different books that have kind of been cobbled together. um So so you're you're dealing with a giant mess. Now it's a divinely inspired, authoritatively given giant mess, but I mean, 66 books spanning 2000 years and a hundred authors
00:13:35
Speaker
That's a different literary animal than the book I buy at Crossway or Crosswalk or Cross Stuff Bookstore, whatever it is. But the book I buy on Amazon, right? so So when we get our English Bibles, we're always dealing with a translation and in the best and most accurate translations available to us are never 100% accurate. in large part because we don't have original manuscripts for most of the Bible. And when we do have the oldest manuscripts for much of the Bible, they don't always agree. So so sometimes you get words that can be translated in multiple different ways. And in multiple translations are translated different ways. And the word ra'em is one of those. It's the Hebrew word that in the King James translation of the Bible is translated unicorn.
00:14:19
Speaker
in almost every other English translation of the Bible is translated ox or sometimes bull. um And sometimes- There's a big difference between unicorn and bull. Well, in in the Septuagint, which is the the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which was widely circulated among early Christians, so it was kind of there their first you know, Jewish Bible was the Septuagint. Then it was translated monoceros, which means one horned creature, single horned creature, and that that was unicorn. right now Now, this is what I think is is theologically fascinating. okay ah I suppose, hang on, let me take a detour. First of all, um we think probably they're referring to rhinos. A rhino has one horn.
00:15:01
Speaker
Oh, OK. A rhino is like a bull or an ox. So the distance between rhino and bull is a lot smaller than the distance between unicorn and, you know. Fair point. Agreed. Right. Yes. This isn't this isn't an angry pony. Right. This is this is a big stinky thing. Maybe that has a horn. OK, so so so first of all, we we think maybe they're talking about rhinos, probably the most. But secondly, and more significantly. For at least the the the people who read the word unicorn, Okay, like in the second century, the fourth century, certainly everybody in King James court. I mean, everybody in the middle ages believed unicorns were real. They just hadn't found one yet. There were unicorn horns commonly traded among different, um, um, what do you call them? Uh, monarchies.
00:15:48
Speaker
Now, later we discovered that those unicorn horns were actually narwhal horns that had been harvested from creatures in the Arctic. I mean, a narwhal horn looks just like you think a unicorn horn would. And there's only one place um where you can where you can legally purchase narwhal horns right now. It's British Columbia, Canada, where I'm from. Very next time I go home, I want i want to buy one. I was going to ask, do you own one? Because that would be pretty amazing. Listen, if you're if you're out there right now, And you have such a horn. Yes, Dr. D did one of those. That would be amazing. I love you. And send it to the chapter house so he can proudly display it. Yeah, right. So anyway, they get these horns and they have these stories, but they weren't real. Like there were, at least not in the time of King James, there were no unicorns. So this presents us with a problem. What do we do with the fact that the Bible seems to suggest
00:16:46
Speaker
something is real that isn't real. Like that's a problem. if If you don't perceive that to be a problem, you're lying to yourself. That is a theological problem.
Mythological Creatures: Literal or Symbolic?
00:16:59
Speaker
What do we do that the Bible seems to suggest? Something is real that we know isn't real, or at least we're pretty sure isn't real. now You go, well, Dave, we don't know everything. You're right, Dave, there could have been unicorns. You're right. You know what else there could have been? A cell phone. There could have been a cell phone back there dropped from outer space. There could have been a little blue man hidden it, but there's always a thing that there could have been in all likelihood.
00:17:25
Speaker
There were never, you know we have no we have no fossil reference for unicorns. And it's not just unicorn my unicorns. I mean, unicorns example we're talking about now, but but the Bible talks about phoenixes. There were there were never any phoenixes. the the the but The Bible talks about these these mythological creatures, Leviathan, but pronounced in case you're a geek, Leviaton, if you want to know how to say it, Leviaton. or Behemoth or Zeez. I mean, the Bible talks about these, these wild mythological creatures, Rahab, Marduk, Ashereth. Sometimes they're, they're referred to as false and foreign gods. Sometimes they're just cryptozoological fiends. Sometimes they're just monsters. Monsters is probably the best catch all term for all of them. That's why I wrote the book. Monsters is to explore this. debate The Bible seems to tell us that these things are out there, but we now know they weren't.
00:18:11
Speaker
So, what do you do with that? Now, there's lots of ways to reconcile this. Some people go, well, what we know is wrong. We go, oh, maybe. Okay, sure. um And some people go, well well, we just haven't found him yet. oh Maybe, sure. And some people will say, well, no, that those are dinosaurs and and everything we know about human history and the fossil record. And it's all but it's all a liberal conspiracy. Sure. but I don't find any of those things compelling. So here's here's how I think about it. I go. um When God inspired people to write what they wrote in the Bible, he's he's working through people. God always works through people. God is committed to people.
00:18:56
Speaker
So like when you read Jeremiah, there's a different literary style than when you read the Song of Solomon.
Human Limitations in Scripture Writing
00:19:02
Speaker
There's a different literary style in the Epistle to Titus than there is in the Gospel of John. Human agency always plays a role in what happens. and And humans are limited in their understanding. Jesus, for example, was limited to his own time and place. That's why Paul you know takes pains to point out that he divested himself of his divine privileges in the Kenosis poem in Philippians, like he set aside the prerogatives of his divinity. So Jesus chose not to tell us how to cure cancer.
00:19:34
Speaker
because he had made that knowledge temporarily unavailable to himself. That's what it meant to incarnate, to submit to the human nature. So so all that to say, when God works through people, God deals with people as they are. So God's dealing with people who thought there were sea monsters in the Mediterranean. So the issue of whether or not there were sea monsters or unicorns or basilisks or chimeras or whatever, the issue of whether or not those things were there is actually less relevant than whether or not those people were truly afraid. Those people were scared. Those people were scared.
00:20:16
Speaker
Those people were sometimes in awe. Those people were, so and and you go, well but it it doesn't count if it's not real. Well, hang on. ah Fear counts. We're all afraid of all kinds of things that have never happened and quote-unquote aren't real. Don't you remember Y2K? You remember how crazy? Yeah. The world lost its mind so over the change of the millennium. We all thought our our computer clocks were going to turn over and everybody was going to, you know, grow a seventh gender and come and gog and may gog and you know, what? None of that happened.
00:20:48
Speaker
Every time somebody's predicted the return of Jesus, the end of the world, the battle of Armageddon, they've been wrong. We are 100% wrong, 100% of the time, every time. So the next time there's an eclipse, just remember, we're gonna be wrong about that one too. And the next time there's some big thing in the news, we're gonna be wrong about that one. And the next time somebody says, we think so and so is the antichrist, whack them below the belt because they should not be talking about this thing that we are always wrong about. It's just, we're always wrong about that. We are terrified of things that aren't real and consistently God gives us a message.
Fear Not: Reassurance in the Bible
00:21:22
Speaker
Don't be afraid. What about Leviathan? Don't be afraid.
00:21:28
Speaker
but but but But what about the monsters? Don't be afraid. But don't you know that Russia and and China, they're forming a pact with Uranus and there's a new thing with the eclipse and there's going to beam me up, Scotty. And they're controlling the weather. Don't be afraid. But there's lizard people and don't be afraid. But we we lost the election. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. Greater is he that lives in you than he that is in the world. And we don't know about all that other nonsense. It's probably not real, but God is. And even if all that other nonsense is real, God is still real. God is still real.
00:22:06
Speaker
ah And that's one of the major streams. That's not the only major stream, but that's one of the major streams that I i choose to think about, the stuff in the Bible like unicorns, which I think are super cool. and And I mean, you know, for thousands of years, Christian people have used unicorns as a symbol of innocence and eternity and eternal life and purity. And I mean, the the symbolism of the unicorn is very potent and very powerful. but So where in scripture, what is the context where the unicorn was mentioned? It's only in in two verses, both in Job. So this is the King James Version of the Bible, and this is the 1611, the earliest English translation, full English translation Bible, Job 39, nine, and 10. Will the unicorn be willing to serve you or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow, or will he harrow the valleys after thee? So it's in the midst of a big long poem where God is asking Job
00:23:06
Speaker
Hey, like look look at these amazing things that I've made. Are you more powerful than the might of my grandeur, my splendor, and my works? and Of course, the answer for Job is, well, no. like you know This is the same same chunk of the book of Job where you where God asked Job, can you pull in Leviathan with a fish hook? Can you pierce the hide of behemoth? And of course the answer is no. We are not we are not toughest and mightiest and most um potent of the works of God.
00:23:38
Speaker
and But of course, you don't need you don't need Leviathan and Behemoths to believe that. I couldn't beat up a cow. If you give me bare fists and send me out into the field, the cow is going to win. I'm going to come home smelling like crap and be stupid.
00:23:53
Speaker
um I would like to maybe talk through some of the visuals that I was having when you were talking. And I don't know if you know this, David, but I did not grow up in a church. I don't think my faith really started until 20s, just kind of like digging in and really in the last probably few years is it really started where I started to to make sense of things. And so here's what I'm hearing and also understanding. So like you're talking about these
00:24:24
Speaker
three wing, two wing, six wing dragons, whatever it is. And I think about people who draw those things and they are mythical creatures and we're like, wow, no that doesn't, that doesn't work. It's whatever that's all made up. But then I can see these things in movies and in comics and in books. And I'm like, they all came from someplace. yeah They came yeah from some, whether it was their direct reading of the scripture, because let's sure face it, most of us don't know that those are the things that are being discussed. right sure
00:25:06
Speaker
So I was thinking about that. And then the other thing, of course, I'm thinking of my girls in the unicorn. And you can tell me if this is the wrong way to approach this, but you said that God works through people. So if right now my five and seven year old somehow connect unicorns with God and the love that he has for them and Why would I take that away? Well, I don't think you should. You should. the the The Bible is full of these amazing things that we shouldn't run away from or explain away. We should embrace. You know, I mean, for me as a young kid, I i remember, gosh, eight, 10, 12 years old, like so many young kids in church, the only thing that kept me reading my Bible was the great red dragon and the beast from out of the earth. And you're like, wait, get get me to the cool part where the angel kills it again. your little boys. And so I go, i think I think God in his infinite wisdom knows that and uses our imagination, uses the visuals of our mind, the you know the imagination that he gave us, the imagination that he planted within us, the imagination through which he speaks to us to took to call us forward. And for me,
00:26:22
Speaker
i look back over the last couple thousand years of Christian history and tradition and you have all kinds of legends about unicorns or centowers or satyrs and they these are legends that Christian people use to illustrate spiritual truth. I mean, just like yeah you you could pull spiritual lessons out of Harry Potter, but you feel maybe a little bad doing it, you can pull spiritual lessons out of Christian history and tradition, the hagiography, the lives of the saints, the stories of the Desert Fathers, the parables, the sermon illustrations, Lord of the Rings, the Hobbit, C.S. Lewis, the Great Divorce, the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, G.K. Chesterton, anything from the Inklings. you ah like There's so much there and it's the the it's it's not important whether or not I can find a fossil for those things.
00:27:10
Speaker
because instead I'm finding a breadcrumb and the breadcrumb, when I chase it down, leads me to Christ. It always leads me to Christ. I just have to be willing to chase it instead of being afraid of it. So yeah, I highlight all this stuff about unicorns in the Bible for my daughter too. Thank you. yeah ah Fascinating. I love it so much. i just cause I also don't want either one of them to walk into their class and be like, but maybe I do. Like, okay, here's what it is. The unicorns did this and this and this, and this is why you should love Jesus. And then somebody be like, no, you have a,
00:27:46
Speaker
misunderstanding of what this is about, but I'm trying to lean into whatever it is that has spoken to them, yeah just like whatever it is is speaking to me. That's how I say this is my testimony. Yeah. I like i like to say you want you want to read the Bible, not literally, but literarily.
Literal vs. Literary Bible Reading
00:28:04
Speaker
oh and And that doesn't mean that it's not inspired. And that doesn't mean that you shouldn't take the word seriously far from it. But I mean, you just were aware that when Jesus says, I am the gate, there's not a little latch somewhere in the middle of his clavicle. Like, you know, it's a metaphor. You know, when you read the song of Solomon, that this is explicit, ah erotic language. You know, when you read Jeremiah, that he's dripping with lamentation or Taylor Swift lyrics, as I like to think about. Yeah, that's controversial right now. It's your latest album. yes You just know it's not all the same. It's not all the book of Numbers. It's not all Deuteronomy. It's it's different. And I think you you got to you got to come to it. A healthy person comes to the scripture with that approach. um and And I look at it too this way that I go, if you if you fully give yourself over to the spirit while you're reading the scripture, he's going to point you to Jesus. yeah And Jesus is the only way to the Father. but there's a lot of ways to Jesus. Some people read the scripture through the lens of of justice and advocacy, and that leads them to Jesus, and Jesus leads them to the Father. Some people read the scripture through the lens of human rights, women's rights, and equality, and you read the scripture through that lens, and it leads you to Jesus, and Jesus leads you to the Father. And some people read the scripture through the lens of phoenixes, because they're freaking awesome.
00:29:26
Speaker
They lead you to Jesus and Jesus takes you to the Father. so So, regardless of what brings us to the scripture, always, always the Spirit is going to use those breadcrumbs to lead us to Jesus. And and that's what we want. That's what we want for our kids. you know Yeah, and we have to remember too that we we are not just humans with a brain, we're humans with a heart and with instinct as well. And so scripture can work through all of those centers of intelligence within us, not just our thinking mind. um And that's kind of how the creativity and the spirit and and all of that
00:30:03
Speaker
it It can just open us up, I think, to to knowing God more intimately. well You're absolutely right. You're 100% right. And I think about it like this. when um When Adam and Eve showed up, okay, however that all worked out, and let's say there's a literal Adam and Eve, and you know God puts them in the garden, and so then there's naked Adam and naked Eve, and they're hanging out on planet earth, and they're the only people there, right? And and there's nothing, like there's nothing else on earth except the animals and the trees and the plants and Adam and Eve, right? So at some point Adam and Eve got to make um they got to make a boat to get across the water. So they make up the idea of a boat. They chop down the first tree, they carve out the first canoe, slash together logs for the first round, and then they make it up.
00:30:47
Speaker
At some point, Adam and Eve got to, well, they want something to accompany their thoughts or their their their speech, and they decide they're going to sing. And it would but be so nice if they had something to go along with their singing. So they got ah they got to fashion a lyre or a harp or you know some version of a piano or a guitar or a violin or some string. So they they got to make it up. At some point, everybody had to make something up. And we do that in emulation of our Creator. God is first a Creator. That's how we in the beginning God made. him he he makes God makes stuff. He makes stuff out of nothing. That's Romans 4.17, the God who calls things that are not as though they are, who brings life to the dead. Where there's nothing, God will make a something, including God making people so that people will make a something. And there's all kinds of things that God gave us that we can use to make other things. For example, When Adam and Eve are walking around, they're walking around on solid rock. At some point somebody had to say, what happens if we dig in the rock? And they found gold.
Deepening Spiritual Insights Through Scripture
00:31:50
Speaker
Somebody was the first person to find gold, which means when God gave us this planet, it's like a kinder egg.
00:31:57
Speaker
There's stuff in it. there's There's gold inside for those who are willing to dig. And the scriptures are the same way. There's gold in the scriptures. There's insight in the scriptures. There's meaning in the scriptures for those who are willing to dig. but you gotta Dig, if all you do is sort of scrape at the surface, you only get gravel and too many Christians are too satisfied with the gravel of the Bible instead of going deep to look for the diamonds and the gold and the emeralds and the jewels that God has placed there for our enjoyment, our edification, our maturation. That seems like a good place to end it right there. Preach, amen. Unicorn, let's go back to that. Yeah, let's go back to glitter and unicorns. We ride the unicorn off into the sunset.
00:32:40
Speaker
ah Well, we still have so much more to talk with you about. We are going to talk about the chapter house. We're going to talk about your book. We got to talk about your
Episode Conclusion and Future Topics
00:32:51
Speaker
trip here. But we want to dive into something that we feel we don't have the answers to as women. And we're going to get into that in our very next episode. So join us for our next episode with Dr. David McDonald and all of this information that we have for you, normalgozalongway.com.