the one with the tangents (ep. 12)

Transcript

James: modern-day Ukraine. It went all the way across, you know, ah you know like you know on the Kerch, you know, the Kerch Bridge, you know, to the other side.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: um

James: That whole area, it was way bigger, people who spoke Ukrainian. And the reason why they don't speak Ukrainian in those areas anymore is because they were fucking genocided, you know? That's ah not the only reason, but it's a big reason.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Well, that's not the only reason. So there was like a whole, well, another big reason is that there was like a, excuse me, there was a longstanding effort. So whenever they would,

James: Yeah, conquer a place, they rushify it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah whenever they would show Ukrainians on like a TV show, um the Ukrainians would be like, do you remember the show ah Family Matters with Urkel?

James: Mm-hmm.

James: Yep.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So the Ukrainian people, like anytime there was a Ukrainian character, they were always like clumsy, stupid, ugly, you know, they were just like the dumb asshole.

James: Oh, yeah. yeah

James: Yep.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And then they that character would speak Ukrainian and they would, and they would often have them like, excuse me, wearing,

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like Ukrainian dress, but like, you know how, like you can go to a Halloween store and get like a ah costume for like $20 to be like Batman. And you look, it's just like, you know, like ah spare tent flaps. Like, it's just like, like just the cheapest fabric ever.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So they would always make the Ukrainians like costume to show like their heritage as this like cheap plastic version of itself.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Um,

James: Yeah, I mean.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, so that is a big part of why, ah you know, a part of 2014, a lot of Ukrainians spoke Russians, because all of their media portrayed their own culture in such a negative way.

James: Yeah. yeah I mean, it's just...

James: Man, I'm just so sickened with this administration. Where did you want to start? what did How many things you want to talk about today?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Um... Okay, well, first, I want to tell you, i started recording two minutes ago, so we could have ah non-traditional intro.

James: Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: This was our non-traditional intro.

James: Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: We'll do a more on-purpose one next time.

James: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But i was I liked where you were going. I wanted to capture the conversation. And other thing is that the first thing we're going to do is we're going to do the new intro music. And I didn't write out a list. I have like a loose framework of stuff, but I want to take this episode and kind of change it up a little bit from sort of like rehashing a list of things and ah you know expressing my feelings publicly and switch to some more concerted talking points and so like part of what I want to do this episode is kind of talk about what we want to have our messages be and like what we want to accomplish and what what

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know to mean like what do we want our voice to be? um But first, the new intro music.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Welcome to O Rather News. I'm Gabe,

James: I'm James.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and this is O Brother News.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, so I love to have music, and I have picture, like, so many Ezra Klein videos where he has some, like, poignant pre-written, like, introduction to, like, a conversation podcast that he then does, ah and I love the idea of doing something similar.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I'm basically just going to, look at anything on another podcast that I enjoy, like, like stuff that Scott Galloway does or Ezra Klein or the Bulwark or like whoever. And I'm just going to like, yeah, let's just take the things that we like from everywhere.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: but What do you think? what do do you like it? Is it is it is it the vibe?

James: It's all right.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: All right, cool.

James: ah Sure. It's a vibe, actually, in fact, because as we were talking before, and i think but over the week, and you know we're we've talked about it ah number of times lately, but I was reading a little bit more.

James: It's not a hard book to read, obviously, but i was reading a little bit more stuff on ah on Tyranny, and that music kind of speaks to the whole on Tyranny and what's going on here in America right now. So, yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, that's actually one of the want to talk about too is ah put that put that little speech in the group chat about reading on freedom. as I was thinking about just like reading that speech and talking about the book a little bit.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: My early experiences with it.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: I was thinking about Doge when I read about be wary of paramilitaries.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: What's the connection there? I don't get that one.

James: How Doge was going in, they busted into the, uh, um, What's that place called? It's like a think tank, but it's not under the executive branch at all. It's an institute for peace.

James: The Institute for Peace. And they tried to go there one time. Those kids went there one time and they wouldn't open the door like, yeah, no, we're not part of the executive branch. You have no authority over us. And then they showed up a couple days later with a whole bunch of people with guns.

James: you know And the people called the police. And then the D.C. police came there and they were talking to these other people who were some... branch of federal government with a bunch of machine guns and the DC police backed down and said, we can't help you.

James: And they let the people with the big guns go in there. And then the people with the big guns made everybody leave and they locked the doors and, you know, closed down this place. It's not even under the executive branch.

James: Yeah. And was thinking about the January Sixers and everything else paramilitaries, you know,

James: ah was reading a lot of little things in thinking about this administration, you know.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I was seeing, I saw several small things also. So in no particular order, some of those things are, there was a, I'll link to all these things. There was a speech by ah Meredith Whitaker where she was talking about, um,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: the danger of agent ai or agentic because you but you have to give it so many capabilities and such access ah to be able to do sort of useful things you want it to do. Like, you know, you want to say, hey, I want to buy these concert tickets and tell my friends about it and put it on my calendar.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Well, in order to do that, it has to have access to your messages. It has to have access to your credit card. has to have have access to the Internet. And it has to then, with all of that access, take data from all those places, send it off to the cloud, parse through it, combine it, come back, and then like you know web crawl.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So like you know you have to give them so much so much information that you're like making these huge security sacrifices in order to get this like very marginal ah functionality.

James: hmm hmm

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: um that was pretty interesting there was a there was ah an interesting video that highlights um magas a whole bunch of maga like a maga cast of characters talking about the hillary email scandal and then talking about signal gate yeah so it's like it's like trump is on there and like what i can't remember janine perero and just like ah and pete hagseth of course and like several other

James: hmm

James: ah go gate yeah jesus christ um much worse

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah people, I think Mike Walls too, ah you know just like what they said then and what they say now. and like but definitely want to talk about the ah signal gate.

James: Oh, yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and like the point like the The biggest point about that that I want to make is is is one that I haven't heard anyone else make before. and It's about um you know everybody engages with them with this like presumption that like they're either incompetent or like genuine in some way. And I think the only way to engage with them that makes any sense, like the only way that I can, I can watch the things that they say and the things that they do and like speak to it without denying the reality of my eyes and ears is to be like, no, they're just liars.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They will say they have no, they have no like morality or

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah like there there is no moral or character driven or like ideological ah like like force dry like propelling them motivating them towards a set of beliefs like the only thing that motivates them is convenience like what is the thing that will play the best right now in the news to help me to have an advantage in the in the current news cycle.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like, that is it, you know?

James: Well, yeah. i mean you but You talk about the people defending them as if they did nothing wrong.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i I'm talking about, like, the Republicans in general.

James: It's just made little small mistake. You know, hey.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Because, like, if you hear them talking about, like, Hillary, they're like, oh, she should be arrested and investigated and, like, and, like,

James: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

James: yes We should be arrested for having the... Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: she's a, trade she's a traitor for like putting them on on a private email server that that was secured in this blah, blah, blah way.

James: no

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And like, then they're talking about this and like, well, you know, like, I think he's a really good guy and like, it's really just not, you know, we've got to just let him, it's just people make mistakes, you know, you just got to like learn from it and keep on moving.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And it's just like, yeah you know They talk out of the left side of their mouth when it is good for them, and they talk out of the right side of their mouth when it's bad for someone else. like they have no you know i mean like They have no ideology. They just say whatever sounds good in the moment.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's one of my that's one of my like foundational complaints with Republicans. It's not that you can't trust them. it's that you can't trust them It's that you can trust them to like to only to exclusively say whatever is politically convenient.

James: Yeah. That's the big difference between Republicans and Democrats. that's one of the that's That's another symptom of what you hated about Democrats versus Republicans, right? Democrats, yes, there are still plenty of people who are, you know, politics is politics everything else, but there's plenty of Democrats who just have a sense of ah sense of right and wrong that Republicans really just don't have.

James: Like, ah shit, look at Al Franken, right? Al Franken, right? Me too, stuff like that, right?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yep.

James: Republicans accused of something, man, they will all just... you know

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like Roy Moore.

James: shoulder to shoulder, they're going to march shoulder to shoulder in defense of this person until it's so overwhelmingly you know impossible to defend the person, then maybe they'll dump them.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Did they ever dump him?

James: Democrats,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They never dumped Roy Moore.

James: Roy Moore, well, Roy Moore, no, they didn't, really. um

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No.

James: But Republicans didn't, yes, no.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They did.

James: But Al Franken... which is ah not even close to the same thing.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Daniel Passamanecki, before you're a politician, you take a picture where you're not touching someone yeah.

James: know I mean?

James: And they're asleep and you're acting like their little hands like, oh and you're looking at the camera with the goofy face, like, oh, look at that. yeah Whatever, you know, and shit, man. and That's something 15 year olds do.

James: Yeah, he probably should have known better. He's, you know, a young comedian. This is, I think, either during or pre- No.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, but I don't think that he should have. I don't think that he should have known better. Like, I completely disagree. Like, you cannot, you cannot apply the current standard to people in the past and you cannot apply this, the yeah standard of like their current job to their past.

James: Well, whatever. Either way, ah I'm correct. Hey, we've had this conversation before, but... You've come around.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like if you're a a comedian in the past, like it doesn't matter if today, like, you know what mean?

James: I know. I know.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like the stuff you did when you were a comedian is not the same as the stuff you did when you were trying to be president.

James: Which, by the way, you've...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like people can learn and grow.

James: you've yeah you've turned a leaf on that. Because I was trying to tell you about that. Like, that was but my argument to you about why the crime bill in the 90s, you can't, people can't be blasting Clinton for that shit. Because everybody was for it back then. But anyway, but you've come a little bit of ways on that one.

James: But what i'm saying is this. It doesn't matter. The point is, Democrats, oh shit, me too, he's didn't, oh my god, nope, we are not sticking with somebody who's accused of being sexually inappropriate.

James: Bam! He is a fucking pariah, man. They just, they, and they fucked him over and That was bullshit. But Democrats, they have a sense of what's right and wrong.

James: If you had some Democrat up there, i don't care if it's Chuck Schumer. I don't care if it's Joe Biden. If if there was any talk about them seriously doing anything like really wrong, they would fucking roll over and be like, we're not defending that.

James: Democrats are not for that. People, everybody just let you know, we don't support that.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know,

James: and they're out.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: so

James: what Right or wrong, they do do that. Rebuckmans will do it. They will always stick with their criminal people.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: just to get more, oh my God, and I'm going to show how my brain doesn't work sometimes, but what was the guy's, the name of the comedian we were just talking about one second ago?

James: yeah Al Franken.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Al Franken, yeah, sorry. ah

James: I love Al Franken, by the way.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But just to like, to get conspiratorial on Al Franken, like, you know, Al Franken,

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: was the most like capital p presidential member of the party that we've had since like bill clinton like he's he has he has the like yeah he has like the social cachet and the like ability and like the everyman of like of like a donald trump he has like the you know like the liberal leaning stuff of like a bernie but but like 30 years younger he has like

James: Oh yeah, he could have been president. If that thing would have happened, he easily could have been president. he Likeability factor.

James: He easily could have been president.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know, like the plain spoken Midwestern, like and he has like legislative chops and he has like policy chops.

James: Mm-hmm.

James: And he can explain everything to everybody on a level they'll they'll totally understand and get with humor and make it funny.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And make it funny.

James: And everybody's like, dude, and he's fucking great.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: He's great.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: And that Republicans really wanted to get rid of him. Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Well, I don't think that it was just the Republicans who wanted to get rid of him. I think that Hillary wanted to get rid of him because she wanted to have it be her time and he was in her way. That's that's where I'm getting a little conspiratorial.

James: He was not in Hillary's way. Yeah, that's way conspiratorial. Yeah. a What year was that even?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It

James: Yeah, no. ah yeah so yeah I don't think he was going run for prison anyway, man.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: was before 2016. I

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i don't know, maybe that's too conspiratorial. Let's see.

James: No, it was 2017.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It was 2017?

James: It was 2017. Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: it

James: yeah was twenty seventeen was twenty seventeen

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: was definitely

James: It was 2017. Alright.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: no it was definitely

James: Yeah, it was 2017. It was 2017. Yeah, there's an article, NBC News, about it. Senator Al Franken said he was embarrassed and ashamed for the sexual misconduct allegations in his first interview in eight days. His first interview, eight days later, was published November 26th, 2017.

James: So, yeah, it was way after. Way after Hillary. No, there was no Hillary conspiracy in there, man.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Dude, that's not when the Me Too was.

James: Me Too was not a one-year thing. i mean, it went on for a long time, but...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Wow. Okay, well.

James: I mean, Me Too was a little bit later. The Me Too movement really started getting going after, you know, Harvey Weinstein and Trump the grabbing him by the pussy and all that shit. I mean, that's really when it really started taking off.

James: But this was in a pretty close...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, you're right, i'm just wrong.

James: Actually, no, 2017 was that, because 2016, yeah, mean, Me Too movement. It was a while ago, man. Let's see. Let's see. They first used it in 2006.

James: But it didn't start up until 2017. There you go. 2017, it was Me Too. There you go. The movement spread virally as hashtags on social media. October 15th, 2017. Alyssa Milano posted on Twitter about that.

James: It's 2017, dude. It was Me Too. That's when it blew up. There we go

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, I'm just wrong.

James: So, anyway. That was a big tangent.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But yeah, like this is this um this is like a classic example of the Democrats bringing the you know regulation weight boxing gloves to a to a gunfight.

James: yeah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: you know And they're like so like, sir, your gloves are not regulation. And they go like, no shit, dumb fuck. And they just shoot them with their gun.

James: And I know that, and I disagree with you.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's why we lose all the time.

James: I know that you, I know you disagree with me on this one, but like, honestly, Joe Biden, he was, he was, he looked absolutely like dog shit and that debate, but you know what? I still think he would have won.

James: I still think. the small, small 1% margin of victory, the 1.85% margin of victory Trump had is 1.85, you know, or 1 point, what was it?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, I don't think so.

James: 1.65? Oh God, it's something like 1.45, 1.65, 1.85, something like that percent margin of victory. And the percentage of people who voted third party eclipsed the the the percentage of victory that Trump had over Kamala.

James: And I still think there's enough little places where white people just didn't vote for Kamala and just...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and

James: little bit of margins. I still think Biden could pull that up.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Latin people just didn't vote for Kamala. Like men just didn't vote for a woman. Yeah, I don't know. I don't I honestly i don't think so.

James: He was so close.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I think Joe would have lost worse.

James: He looked... I don't know. I don't think so. but Either way, there's another example though of how the party just fucking rolled on their presidential nominee. The president, the leader of the party,

James: one Granted, really bad debate, and he had sick, was COVID, he looked like shit and everything else, but you know what?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But it wasn't it wasn't just one bad debate.

James: He just...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It was every time he was in public, he he seemed like his brain, like his goose was cooked.

James: Oh, man. That was...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And i think what really what really killed him

James: I don't think so, man. that he did the state of the He did the State of the Union. He did the State of the Union. It wasn't all promptered up anything else, and he fucking owned the Republicans. He engaged them back and forth them and made them all defend Social Security. Oh, okay, so you guys don't want to cut Social Security anymore.

James: He owned it and that was after that debate. That like a week or two later after he'd gotten better.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i I didn't watch um didn't watch that thing.

James: Oh my God.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: didn't watch that State of the Union.

James: why You should have watched it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah Honestly, i usually don't watch the State of the Union, actually.

James: e You should have watched it. It was fucking amazing. And if have been like that the rest of the way out, shit. That debate was a long, it was the earliest debate ever. so long before an election, that debate would have been forgotten about.

James: Kamala kicked Trump's ass in the debate. Didn't matter. That would have been long gone. You know, I still think Biden would have pulled that shit out.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I, so this thing, I don't think that, I think that the debate got a lot of people talking, but I think so the, the bigger thing was that you had, you had like, well, you had like George Clooney and a bunch of other people who were like, like famous or notable Democrats or like large donors.

James: He was the incumbent.

James: Mm-hmm.

James: Timber Crosk got scared.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And they were seeing him at a fundraiser and they were like talking to him face to face. And they were like, this dude's not all here. And they were like, I spent, you know,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: six hours with him the other night and he seemed like a ghost of a zombie. And those, and all those people started writing op-eds like, dude, you need to like, hurry, like the clock's ticking, bro.

James: So what you're saying is Democrats have.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You need to get out the race before you you give the game away.

James: Yeah, those are Democrats that say that, right?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah. Yeah.

James: Okay. Do you think Republicans would have said that about Trump, who also is fucking incoherent and psycho? No, because they stick together. Democrats, like ah we think we need a we you need a leader who is bla blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Well, no, yeah, that's totally true. and

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: yeah we

James: So we're going to blast our guy.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Democrats eat their own.

James: They don't give a shit. They want power. They will stick by their guy no matter what.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's true.

James: It's another example where Democrats eat our own because we have a sense of right and wrong and Republicans have no fucking morals.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I don't think that it's so much that we have a sense of right or wrong.

James: ah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I think it's that we have a belief in the, i don't even want to say we, because honestly, am not a Democrat.

James: you're not yeah no you don't i am yeah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I do not agree with the Democrat. i vote for them. You know, I used to be a Democrat, but I'm so fed up with the Democrats that I wouldn't say I'm a Democrat. So I would, I can't say we, but I would say the Democrats ah have this like belief in the value of their moral character.

James: yeah

James: Yeah. Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: as if it's going to win them votes or mean something, you know, it's the same, it's the same thing where they're like, ah you know, your testimony from yesterday was that you didn't know anything about any, you know, ah war plans or, you know, very, they were very, they're more specific in the question.

James: yeah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It was like, you didn't know about any attack packages, timings, or like weapons packages, or, you know, like you didn't know the exact details of the, of the strike, is like where there are the details of the exact details of the strike in the signal chat. And she's like, Tulsi Gabbard goes like, you know, not I'm not aware of any any details like that.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And then the you know, he puts out just the whole chat that, you know, after they go in and testify. And then the next day they're back in there like, well, yesterday you said this, do you want to like amend your statement? And she's like, well, I don't, I have my yesterday, what I said what was based on what I did or didn't remember. So, you know, or like Kelsey Kebber does this thing where she's like, she's like, they asked her a question and they're like, you know, as the director of national intelligence is Russia an enemy and she's, ah you know, an adversary or an ally.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And she's like, well, in my capacity as a private citizen, and she's like I'm not asking about your your capacity as a private citizen.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I'm asking the director of national intelligence, you know? And then she's like, okay, well, ah now I have to say adversary because, you know, i can't look that dumb.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah But it's just like, like begrudgingly, occasionally they'll agree with reality only if it like doesn't objectively hurt them in the moment.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But any time that it does, like, they just don't, they just don't have the character to say, yeah, you know what? This was in there.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: There's a lot of conversations that I take part in all the time. There's a lot of group chats.

James: but They can't say that.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: There's a lot of, but it's not illegal.

James: That's illegal. That's illegal. They're doing it to get... Hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, it's like, you don't have to say that it's like, You know what i mean Like you have to say that it's on signal.

James: Hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You're like, look, there are a variety of ways that we communicate. There are a lot of conversations that we have. Some I'm a part of, some I'm not a part of. I'm working through the most relevant deep details in any given moment.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And I have a team of people around me and we keep records in accordance with the law. And, you know, like if I like I don't hold every single detail in in my mind 100 percent of the time, that's why God made paper and Steve Jobs made the iPhone. Next question.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know, like they can't just say like the common sense thing and they certainly can't say like, you know, they they certainly can't say something like, well, yeah, like I lied yesterday.

James: We always do this. so We always do this that way that we don't ever have to worry about preserving records under the under the law.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, they can't.................................

James: but But it's so obvious that they do.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: do the

James: That's what the funny thing The thing is, they can't say any of the other bullshit because this conversation made it so obvious that it's the norm. Because they wouldn't have just, oh, it just happened to be the first time where something like this happened and we just, oops, we we were playing around this new signal that we thought it would be the way And then P just started saying all this shit, man. I can't believe you started telling us all this stuff. i mean like It was so obvious that it's just so routine.

James: If they said, well, yeah sometimes we it. It's already, it's so plain as day. There's no defending it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know, like like everybody else could have been like everybody else.

James: There's no way they can defend it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Anyone could have been like, OK, yeah. So look, we had this chat on here this day and i was a part of the group chat, but I wasn't keeping up with the messages. I came in and I.

James: Oh, but she was.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, but here's the thing, like you could say like, you know, I wasn't like, i wasn't like completely keeping up with the messages.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: um You know, an aide was replying for me and like relaying things verbally to me and I misunderstood which, which platform, which, which thread we were referring to. something Something along those lines, right? Like there was some miscommunication because blah, blah, blah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: The next day, or you could even say like, yeah, okay, blah, blah, We had the conversation, okay? And next day we had ah different conversation where we talked about whether or not this was appropriate and what we were going to do to change it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And so we've already made X, Y, Z changes, and this is what we're doing going forward.

James: Hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know, like you can't even say like, yes, there was a thing that we shouldn't have done, but we're aware of it and we've already started to work on it. You know, like, and you like that would be such a better answer or even like,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Oh, it was that, it was just that dude's fault. And like the rest of us were trying to like not make the new guy, you know, feel like an idiot. Cause we're all on the same team, one team, one Trumpy team, one MAGA dream. Like, yeah you know, like you can't even just be like, Hey, look, I'm not going to throw them under the bus. Like, you know, like, like any of these things would be so much better than, than like the absolute, like like, it's just like, it's so,

James: well the thing is the thing is no exactly everybody did but the here thing is this it's perjury is one of those things that is not prosecuted that often for a few reasons one big reason is

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: it's It's so absurd because like they have to know he had the, he had the whole thing. Like.

James: For perjury, right, you have to show intent, right? If she said no or she said something like that, right, obviously she is lying through her teeth, right?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Mm-hmm.

James: If you say you can't recall, yes, she did.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But she didn't say, I don't recall.

James: She said that a number of times.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: said She said, I wasn't aware. The first day she said, I wasn't aware of the of ever any of that information being in there.

James: She said that a lot. really shit well Well, i'm not not that I'm aware Cash Patel said there. Gabbard said, same answer and defer to the Department of Defense on that question. Yeah. And was talking to Tulsi Gabbard and she said she didn't recall because when Mark Kelly was asking her, right?

James: That

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, but then they then they the the person responded. She said, same it she said same answer, and I referred to the Department of Defense.

James: yeah was another one that didn't.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And then the response from the senator was, that's Well, that's two separate answers. And then she said, i was not aware of any of that information in the chat. And then the next day, when they asked her, I said, yesterday, you said you weren't aware of it being in there.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And she said, like, what what I said yesterday was based on but what I did or didn't remember at the time. And like, I didn't i didn't recall what was in there.

James: yes I didn't yeah exactly yeah but you either way yeah or yeah but I do not recall the exact details of what was included there you know

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i forgot. Like, I lied yesterday because I forgot.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But if you know, but this is the thing, like if you know that that the the ah whole message thread, like, you know, that all of it is coming out verbatim the next day, you know, like I'm going to go on the record and lie about it today and tomorrow i'm go to come back and I'm going to have egg on my face for having lied about it today.

James: yeah exactly

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and they're going to be like, well, here's exactly what it was. Why did you say this?

James: Well, I didn't remember.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: yeah

James: i was

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like.

James: I was in the moment and ah o I was all scared and nervous here in Congress.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But

James: you know I've never been here before, you know former congresswoman.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: but like, but. and but

James: you know and I know, I was making a joke.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: they were all They were all there for their confirmation hearings. but like ah

James: man i'm thinking yeah It's harder to prove that you didn't forget something in the moment. How can you prove that they didn't remember something? Prove it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So this is this is the thing. i don't think..................

James: That's why they don't charge. That's why they say that stuff. That's why they say they don't remember. I don't remember i't remember the details. I don't remember exactly. oh the It's a fast-moving conversation. Oh, don't remember if they said that. It matter if they have the transcripts. It's hard to prove you don't remember something. You'd you'd rather look like an idiot than totally say something.

James: No, we didn't talk about that. Well, yeah, you did. It's fucking right here. Oh, you just lied. Damn it. I don't remember.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So, so here's the thing, you know, like in terms of like, uh, in terms of like having criminal, um, in terms of having a criminal prosecution.

James: just look like an idiot. but It's less likely to charges.

James: It's never going to happen ah thats for the next four years.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay.

James: Hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And in terms of having, um, like a a civil prosecution.

James: Hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay. I do not recall is a valid argument. Okay. Or I plead the fifth and don't want to, per don't want to, you know, make myself look bad. That is a valid argument.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But when it comes to, i would like to continue in this job, doing this job.

James: so

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And if you have to say, i do not recall in my mind, I feel like we should make this like a legal standard to which people can be held in my mind.

James: Well, you can't remember what happened two weeks ago.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: If you can't remember what you did and what you said when it is written down, OK, if you can't remember what was written. Then you are not good enough to do this job and you got to go.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And I feel like i feel like that there should be a thing where if you come into Congress and you give testimony and you say that you can't remember, that's fine.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But it's only going if you say you don't remember, it's going to take 40 votes. 40 votes in the Senate to fire you. You're impeachable with 40 votes if you can't remember.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: If you can remember and you can tell us something and you can, you know, b be actually up against the penalty of perjury and tell us some facts, then you can then you can continue to have your job.

James: Yeah, but who's going charge her?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But if you can't if you have to fall back on, I can't recall, then 40 people can fire you so that everyone gets fired who can't remember.

James: Yeah, but it doesn't matter because, I mean, none of these people are qualified for these jobs anyway, and they're put up there by Trump, and who would prosecute? Who would do anything? i mean, they're not going to do It's not going to happen. Yes, in a perfect world, none of these people would be this job.

James: He wouldn't be president, and people would be held accountable, but this is the Trump administration.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I mean, I'm not just thinking about this one administration and this one right now, but I mean, the system needs to have this as a rule in place. There needs be bite the blade. There needs to be consequence bite on the blade there needs to be like like consequence

James: Well, mean, there are rules in place, but they're just not going to be enforced. There are rules.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Well, let's OK.

James: There are hard, fast, there are hard rules about this. And they are all guilty. If they were in the military, if they were anybody in the military, they would be court-martialed and they would be in in military prison.

James: All of them.

James: Steve Witkoff was in Moscow. His phone was being monitored by the Russians.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: okay

James: Russia got all of all of this text. They got all this.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: this And like here's the other thing, too.

James: He was in Russia.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: is like

James: When they're doing it on his private cell phone and he's getting this message and they're talking they're getting this this whole thread going back and forth, Russia got all of it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Do you know who made Signal?

James: He was in Moscow. Huh?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Do you know who?

James: I don't know who made Signal. I never looked into who made it, but it doesn't really matter.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: oh it will you when you hear who When you hear this detail about them, you'll will see why it matters. They're a former Russian citizen.

James: Okay, well, I mean... Okay. that <unk>s there's but We work with somebody who is a former Russian, and you know that doesn't really necessarily mean anything. I mean, there's plenty of good people who came from Russia. I'm not trying to say like a Donald Trump, plenty good people.

James: I'm saying there are good people who are not Russian agents who are very happy to be out of Russia and are now Americans and make software. I mean, and that doesn't... Just but because it was made by somebody excuse me who is russia ne Russian, made Russian,

James: doesn't mean anything to me. Um, you know,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I mean, what it means to me is that there is potential for Signal to be a compromised app.

James: but

James: but you don't have to signal itself. Doesn't have to be compromised. Anything. It can be the most secure shit in the world. doesn't matter if they lifted Steve Whitcoff's phone for two minutes and put another app on his phone that would just record everything.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: Then it doesn't matter how secure signal is.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: You know, if,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: They were just monitoring all the transmissions in and out of this phone. Right. And they're doing stuff. They, it doesn't know exactly, exactly.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and It doesn't even have to be that complicated. If they just have a camera in his room that looks over his shoulder and reads it, like, get low-tech.

James: They just have cameras on him 24 seven in Russia because then they would be able just look at his screen and zoom.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: I mean, yeah, it doesn't matter.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: The app itself doesn't matter. The fact that it's on a private cell phone and he's in Russia and they're on this and they're typing. That's the problem, you know? is it's on your cell phone.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, I mean, like, it's

James: There's a reason why you go SCIF. There's a reason why with classified information, you're supposed to go to SCIF. There's no cell phones allowed, no communications allowed, no listening devices, no electronics in the room because yes, yes, all the cell phones out there, out behind that thing, soundproof.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Or, you know, you have the situation room for where you're supposed to go to have these conversations.

James: yeah There's a reason for that so that there's no chance that Russia would be able get this stuff.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: you know, and the other thing, too, that I find just, like, like like honestly, just, like, embarrassing is that there's, like, emojis.

James: lot better than

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: There's, like, it was like a it was like a fist and then like a fire and then like a American flag, which like, just as like a string of emojis, like doesn't make any sense.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like the fist is punching the fire of America. Like have to do more research on this.

James: um and By the way, Signal was not made by a Russian guy.

James: It was made by Moxie Marlin Spike, who's totally American. born in the US, born in Georgia.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Cause I've, I'm certain of some fact and i don't know what I'm misremembering here.

James: where

James: yeah Sorry, I'm just, I don't want our channel to be, you know, propaganda. There's a little thing there, Matthew Rosenfeld, better known by the pseudonym Moxie, Marlon Spikes, American entrepreneur.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Put it put it in Notion so I can include it in the show notes.

James: I just put it in, anyway. Anyway, sorry. Sorry, just wanted to, I was Googling that since you said it, because i was like, who did make it? You know. Anyway.

James: What were saying? I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm I kind of did because that little detail.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, no, I'm just saying that like the the whatchamacallit, the the fact that they're just like using emojis and the fact that they're so like the fact that they're so like smarmy and glib and just like like like they're they're dropping bombs on people.

James: Prayer emojis.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And like whatever you think about these people, they're still human beings. And we're sending soldiers, like, you know what mean?

James: Thank you.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like, yeah the thing that they're talking about is sending someone else to go kill someone else, you know? And even if you're of the opinion that, like, you know, some of the people or even all the people that we think are going to get killed deserve it and are bad and that this is, like, like a net positive for the world, like, you're still taking human life.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You're still sending someone else to kill people for you.

James: I had no problem with that in this case.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know what i mean? And like you have no like they just have no like.

James: I have no empathy for these people.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: There's no so there's no seriousness.

James: I had no empathy for these people that they bombed, and yeah, I'm glad they got killed, honestly.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Five of them were children.

James: well Well, I didn't know about the five children, but the other one, but you know what, though?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I don't know.

James: I mean, they've been firing us off. They've been, you know, taking the ships hostage. They've been doing all those other things They've been launching other things at other ships. They've been, I mean, they've been killing people left and right too.

James: I mean, you know, Hey, you know, pretty much, you know, I mean, it's like, it's like, it's like fucking Hamas people.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Don't start no shit won't be no shit.

James: know I mean? Like Hamas? Yes. I know. I'm not saying all the Palestinians who got fucking killed there. and they They went scorched earth, right. In Gaza. Right. But,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Mm-hmm.

James: there was going to be a lot of civilian casualties because of the nature of what Hamas does. I mean, they put rocket launchers and shit like that on their hospitals. They build their tunnels underneath hospitals and underneath everything and residential buildings.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Mm-hmm.

James: They keep people as human shield. There's going to be resident, there's going to be collateral damage in that case. You know, I think there was less of it here at the Houthis than and the Palestinians, you know, the Hamas people.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: hu

James: But again, i it's you I mean, Whatever. I mean, these are bad people who deserve to be killed. You know what mean? but But...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I feel like the tone, i just feel like the tone was just obnoxious.

James: What's obnoxious to me is when you're talking about killing people and you're using prayer emojis. I mean, fun. Dude. Prayer emoji! Muscle emoji! American flag emoji! You know?

James: I mean, come on, man. Jesus Christ.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's what I'm saying. It's like it's embarrassing to just be to be putting emojis.

James: That's stupid. It's embarrassing all the prayer emojis when you're talking... The prayer emojis when you're talking about killing people is Kind of just Jesus, man, the irony, right? Prayer emoji when you're talking about killing people.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It's just...

James: Jesus would not have done it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It's incredibly tone deaf. You're making my point for me.

James: Jesus wouldn't have done that. Jesus wouldn't have been like, pray, pray that we kill them all. Let's pray that we end their lives. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's stupid. It's just ah another example of hypocrisy, you know?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah this So this brings me around... and like as i am as I am guilty of the thing, okay, this brings me around to a point that like very frequently bothers me when I'm watching coverage of things. Like this is something, Brian Tyler Cohen does this all the time. He does a great job of it, but I disagree with this with this tactic, okay?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: He'll go and he'll show someone saying something, they'll be like, you know, when when it's nighttime, gotta take our sunglasses off so we can see good. and And then they'll be, ah they catch them on video wearing their sunglasses at night.

James: Thank you.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And they they go, hey why are you wearing your sunglasses at night? And he's like, well, obviously, you know, there was a streetlight and it was too bright. And, you know, we gotta protect our eyes. like and And then Brian Tyler Cohen will be like, see, he says the one thing the one time. And then later he says the exact opposite whenever it suits him.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And like in a world where like where that mattered, like, yes, that would be a great gotcha. But I feel like that is a thing that we do constantly that no one cares about.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That no one cares about. Like, I don't think that like people are so, you know, divorced from the truth of their own eyes and ears.

James: What?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: that they don't realize this. I think people care more about winning than ideological consistency. So like pointing out ideological inconsistency as if it's going to be a persuasive argument, I think is a waste of time.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And I see a lot of that happening, like on mainstream news, on podcasts, like it seems like such a frequent thing to be like, he said the one thing and then the other thing, look at him. Just, he doesn't have such a flip flopper. Like being a flip flopper. Hasn't mattered since John Kerry lost.

James: Well, no, I think that they're stuck in the facts that i think you're still stuck in the fact that John Kerry lost in part because people said he's a flip-flopper and they think it still matters. It only matters when it's a Democrat.

James: and That's the thing. And that goes back to the first points we were talking about. republican And that's that's the line. Republicans fall in line. Democrats fall in love. Democrats have to be in love with their politicians to vote for them.

James: They have to love Barack Obama. they have be inspired. Yeah, let's help the change. Yeah, Hillary women, woo! they They have to be inspired. They have to fall in love with their candidate.

James: And if they don't fall in love, they vote third party. Fuck these Democrats. I'm staying home. Whatever. Fuck them, you know. Republicans just fall in line. The hypocrisy, the flip-flops, it only mattered because it was a Democrat.

James: If it's Republican, it doesn't matter. They fall in line.

James: That's what I think.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, I mean, we the Democrats got a The Democrats got a quit bringing hopes and prayers to a gunfight and expecting to not lose.

James: But that's what makes them, that's what makes the, that's what makes the party faithful vote for them. If they don't do it, they don't win. The Democrats that win, people fall in love with it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, let's. No, no.

James: Yes.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Here's no. Here's the thing that the the people I completely disagree. I think the people who are voting for Democrats, that you're attributing it to their.

James: inspiration there'

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: abs strength of character, you know, they're like JFK-ness, let's say they're Obama-ness. ah That's not what they're voting. That's not why they're voting. They're voting because Clinton reduced the deficit and brought down crime.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's what they're voting for.

James: But they didn't vote for him for that in 92 when he got elected. ah for that in ninety two when he got elected

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: so

James: he wasn't ah He was a nobody at that time. He was a fucking Arkansas hick who had the state with like the 48th ranked state in the nation.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Right, but yeah but he was...

James: like But he sold it, man.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah chair

James: And everybody believed him. They're like, wow. he looked at and and Look at him playing the saxophone on Arsenio. Oh, my God. This is a new generation. Look at this guy. And they all fell in love.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: no, no. So the thing that I'm saying is like like, it's not just Clinton, okay? But like like Clinton himself was trading on the coattails of JFK. JFK was trading on the coattails of Lincoln.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And I don't know the details of the politicians for enough before that.

James: I'm winking.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, because with JFK, the the alignment to um the Democrats switched from, yes, because like JFK was like, okay, I'm going to flip and I'm going to be on the side of civil rights.

James: think of the civil and stuff like that, you know? No, God.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And, um you know, that was that was a big switch because prior to that, the Republicans, because like you remember Lincoln was a Republican, like the Republicans were the ones who were like,

James: Purchase. Purchase.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, civil rights. And it was all the Southern Democrats, the like the Dixiecrats who were like making Jim Crow. And then when it got to ah Nixon versus JFK, JFK was like, hey, this civil rights thing is getting pretty huge. I'm going to just tag on to the, you know, social momentum of this thing.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And he flipped his party from being for all of the, you know, the Southern Jim Crow to be oh, we're going to be on the civil rights side now. And then we just rode that all the way out through Obama.

James: Thanks.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And like, this is the thing that I'm saying is like, is that like the person who comes in is trading on the success of the person in the past. A lot of times, I don't think that they're voting for like for Democrats because like they really believe the hope and change pitch or because the, oh yes, the moral high ground is like such a valuable thing.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They're voting. Like there's only, there's only one way that you vote. Okay. Like the only, there's only one thing that matters. And it's like, Is this guy going to help me directly? And they remember or they've heard the stories about how this other guy from this party helped people they know directly or he helped them directly.

James: I don't know, man.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And they're just yeah like, ah, I'm just going to go with this party because it worked out in the past.

James: and That doesn't that that argument does not hold true for Clinton. ninety two I mean, think about it. Before Clinton, you had 12 years of Republican presidency. You had four year stint with Carter.

James: Right. ah A lot of people would argue didn't go to so hot. Before that, you had a bunch of Republicans. I mean, Democrats. Shit, I'm going to take my ball back here. For Clinton, you got Republican, Republican. mean You could go all way back to, yeah, I mean, LBJ. You had Nixon, Ford, right? Two Republicans, back to back.

James: Then you had a little four-year sit with Carter. Then he had 12 more years of Republican presidency. Clinton, they weren't thinking, i mean, yes, he pitched JFK, he had little videos because he met JFK and they did that little thing there when he was kid, but it had been such a long time.

James: Since Democrats really felt like the Democratic Party president would save the day. i mean it's been so long since then. i don't think it's like he was riding on JFK. It was 30-something years earlier, you know? That would be like somebody running right now for an election, running on the legacy of, well, I guess it'd be like Bill Clinton.

James: You know what mean? But... I don't know, man. 30 years back, 30-something years back is a long time.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: what

James: I don't think, I think it's just, they fall in love.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: let's take Let's take somebody like like your mom.

James: Anyway, if we move on.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: okay it Your mom isn't voting for Kamala Harris or Joe Biden for that matter because of the moral high ground or because you know, she loves all of the policies or there are even ones in there that specifically benefit her.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: She's voting for them because she's voting for the party and she became attached to the party ah long time ago. I don't know when, but it was a long time ago. And at some point there were, so there were some candidates and there were some policies that took her from,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I'm thinking Democrat to am voting Democrat to I am a Democrat.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's the thing that I'm saying is like a lot of the a lot of the people who are voting for Democrats are not voting so much for the current candidate.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They're voting because they had that process of like, well, I'm leaning Democrat, i'm voting Democrat. I am a Democrat. And it's all the things that like push them over those boundaries. That's what's getting the vote today. There's this big lag in time. this like a decade ago, this was where the the battle was actually won.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And now you're just seeing it like played out. I think that's true for a lot of people. Certainly not everyone. Certainly there's like a bunch of people in the middle, which with things being so polarized, it seems just absolutely like brain dead to me to be like, i don't know It's a real toss up.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It's just That seems really absurd. i think like, you know, if you go back a few sites, you go back to the pre-Trump era, I think that was a pretty reasonable position. Like, I don't know.

James: I don't think it ever was. That

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Bush, Gore, it's like, it's not.

James: infuriates me. ah God, I wanted to punch every single person who thought that way back then. History has only proven me right on that one.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, but.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But like comparatively, you know, like, like they were much more similar. than then then

James: than Trump and anybody on the other side, yes.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Trump and anybody else. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. like

James: That's not saying much, I mean.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Today, but that was that was true for a long time.

James: so and

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: you know they were They were very similar for a long time.

James: Hmm. Anyway.

James: don't know. Either way. Point is,

James: Democrats, and people who people on the left, people who vote for the lefty candidate. they have to ah They have to be inspired.

James: Republicans don't. Republicans play the long game. They vote for the Republican. They vote for that person, the conservatives. Not everybody's a Republican, but the conservative people. The people who don't identify Republican. I'm not part of either party.

James: I just like my freedom. Okay, you we know who you vote for. know what I mean? oh yeah they fall in line Democrats fall in love

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I'm going to take this to my... Oh wait, this is the other one. I thought that I put the... Hold on, let me just pull up the thing that I wrote that I want to read through.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, so this was from the group chat. And here's kind of the like the ah preamble to this part that I'm going to read. So I sent a video that I'll link um that was someone who's like, hey, here is a way that you can reconcile the government while addressing the government's budget problems while addressing poverty.

James: Hmm?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: This is like a common sense solution that like no one's even discussing. But like, you know, the, the solutions are right there. And put it in the group chat and your mom is like, yeah, I've heard that kind of plan before, but like this stuff doesn't ever happen.

James: and

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: you know, people, people vote against common sense.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They vote, they vote against their own interests.

James: Yep, they go against their interests all the time.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay.

James: Yep.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And like, they have these prejudices. They're afraid they believe in misinformation. Okay. So I, here's like here's my response.

James: Yep.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Cause like, this is the thing I want to talk about is like like the, like the bones of this response. It's not just prejudice and fear and misinformation. I have been reading Freedom by Timothy Snyder. Also a great book.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: He also wrote On Tyranny.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I think we were talking about that before the recording. Anyway, he's a really accomplished historian. I watched his Yale history course on the history of Ukraine. Listen to it. All the lectures from the 26-week course are available free as a podcast. I'll get a link to that too.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Anyway, in Freedom, he talks about how in America we have this idea of negative freedom. our culture, that the natural state is free. And so to become or increase freedom, you have to remove blockers.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: As he explains it in the book, he gives examples and it seems very clear that removing constraints doesn't create freedom. I'm still pretty early in the book, but highly recommend it, especially the audio version, which is read by him.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And the other thing worth mentioning is the difference between the parties and the people in terms of conservative versus progressive versus radical. We have this idea in American politics that the Republicans are conservative because they were.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But under Trump, they aren't at all. They're actually far-right radicals. And have the negative concept of freedom. What makes you more free? Less government, less immigrants, less taxes, less regulations.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And to accomplish those, you provide less services to the people. And if you're Trump, then the execution of that pitch is a self-serving grift so corrupt it makes you think, Surely it's not that corrupt. The system wouldn't stand that.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But it does because the guardrails have been steadily eroded for 50 years.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: um Then we have the idea that Democrats are liberals or progressives. But they're not. the Democrats are conservatives. That's how far right America has shifted.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: When Chuck Schumer gives him the budget CT for free, it's because he's trying to maintain the status quo. Who on the left do people get excited about?

James: Rizal.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Bernie and AOC. And why is that? Because they're not conservatives. Bernie is a social democrat, which anywhere else in the world is a moderate position.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And in most places that have democracies, like real functioning democracies, social democrat policies have already been implemented. Okay. They already have, you know,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: better work-life balance and like healthcare care and like all these things. ah But here, Republicans have called us radicals or Democrats radicals and themselves conservatives for so long, we're the frog in the pot of boiling water.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: We don't even realize that our concept of left and right has shifted way over to the right. And this is a huge part of the appeal of Trump. And it's the same appeal of Bernie and AOC, which is why you see the same people voting for both.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: because they don't want the status quo. The status quo is a $7 minimum wage, 20 in some states. When to have the same buying power as someone making minimum wage in 1970, the minimum wage would need to be, how much do you think?

James: I know the answer.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, $67.

James: just

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It would need to be $67 to equal the buying power of the minimum wage in 1970. And the Democrats have been selling hope and change and delivering business as usual for so long people don't trust them.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And choosing to die on the hill of supporting every minority group has amounted to leaving men behind, being slow to embrace new media, and defying common sense in a way that makes Republican misinformation attacks palatable.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Because they at least agree with a kernel of truth. They agree that things aren't great and that there are problems. I heard this described as oligarchs versus corporatists. And it rings so true to me.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: We don't have a left. We have a far right and a center right and a few independent er radicals, quote unquote, that are centrists. And part of the problem is that Democrats are arrogant and unwilling to examine their faults and change them.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Take something like the mountains of regulation that prevent us from building housing or high speed rail, for example. And then you have superdelegates on the Democratic side that prevent the party from having a radical candidate.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like in 2016, we probably would have won if we ran Bernie against Trump. And oh, what a different era this would be if that had happened. And then also, the Democrats are playing into the narrative that being conservative is what people want because Republicans are quote unquote conservative in name.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: This is Chuck Schumer bending over. This is Kamala campaigning with Cheney's and getting Republican endorsements. That doesn't appeal to people on the left. And it objectively is not liberal or progressive.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It's conservative. And the Democratic Party is much harder to shift because, again, superdelegates. We tried it in 2016. It had huge momentum and a great candidate with great plans.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And yet we keep talking about unemployment and the stock market and policy. And those things only appeal to the wealthy and corporations because, again, 70 percent of the stock market is owned by the top one percent.

James: I heard your argument. I read about it. I thought about it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Huh?

James: But I disagree.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: OK.

James: A little bit. I don't think that the Democrats are a conservative party and they're just a super far, far right party, right? I think what it is, is the Democrats, like Kamala campaigning with Cheney, they are recognizing the simple principle, the Overton window.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: but

James: They are recognizing oh the Overton, you don't know.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: What's the Overton window?

James: Okay, the Overton window, let me type it in here. Okay, one second.

James: Okay, here's the definition. The Overton window is the range of subjects and arguments politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time. It's also known as the window of discourse, right?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: OK.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: OK.

James: Key to the concept is that the window changes over time. it can shift or shrink or expand. It exemplifies the slow evolution of societal values and norms. That's what it that's Wikipedia for you. I'm not play-driving.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: OK.

James: all right. Yeah, and they have like, you have your Overton window. In Russia, Ukraine negotiations with Trump, you can explain this ah with the Overton window also, right? You have one person who's way over here on on one side, right?

James: If you have one person that's way over here on the other side, far ah polar opposite, right?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Mm-hmm.

James: All right. Where is the real Overton window? What does the mainstream population think if they're all squarely centered middle and you have two radically opposite people, it's going to be really 50-50 close thing. right But usually the center of the people, right the window, is not squarely in one section. Usually there's a little bit of a shift. 60% agree with this or 65% agree with this. right The Overton window kind of moves around, shifts from left to right. right

James: Kamala and Democrats are like, hey, As the Republican Party keeps going further and further and further to the right, right? Now, here's what happens.

James: They do shift some of their positions a little bit away from the left, a little bit more to the right to try to still be on the side where the majority of people are.

James: Now, here's what happens.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: uh-huh

James: You keep doing that, right? You keep shifting a little bit more, a little bit more, right? Because you want to try to get the most people on your side because a lot of people, all right, well, they agree with us on some of these things. They don't agree with on everything. We're still closer to their position than the person way over there, right?

James: That's the mainstream. That's the theory about it, right? And it's a sound approach, right? the problem is if you keep doing that one party keeps going for the right the other ones keep chasing you a little bit further to the right yes you do kind of get to what you're saying oh oh they're more like a republican party they're really not but you can see what they're saying though there's well they're what you're saying is they're shifting you're saying that because they're shifting some of their stuff here a little bit more to the right they're no longer ah a liberal party they're a conservative party right and i've

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, no, they're not like Republican. They're conservatives. Because, like, I'm just, like, waiting for you to finish because, like, so...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But what does it mean to be a conservative? It means averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values. That's Oxford Dictionary.

James: Yeah, and i don't and I don't think that's what they, huh?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Averse to change or innovation. That is...

James: Yeah, and that's definitely not the Democrats.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Averse to change or innovation.

James: That's definitely not the Democratic Party, you know?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That is absolutely the Democratic Party. Did they raise the minimum wage?

James: Come on, dude.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Did they did they start taxing the rich?

James: Here's the thing. Remember, they have put forth a lot of these things here and they still couldn't overcome the filibuster. And then they were talking about blowing up the filibuster. And if Kamala was in, if she had become president and the Democrats had the majority, I think they would have actually this time around pulled.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: why didn't they Why didn't they blow up the filibuster when Obama won?

James: Well, because Manchin other people in there in the Senate wouldn't go for it and they wouldn't allow it. And you still need to have the majority to do it. And they didn't have, they didn't have Lyndon Baines Johnson's Senate. They they had 51, 52, 53 Senate at the most.

James: They never had a huge majority.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, no, no, no, no. You don't need that to get rid of the filibuster. the the of the

James: Yes, you do. and In the Senate, you do need to have,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: The party that comes in gets to set the rules for the Congress.

James: Yes, and when you have two or three of the senators on your party, like Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema, and there was one other one who said, absolutely not, we are not getting rid of the filibuster, and every Republican is saying they're not getting rid of it, how do you pass it?

James: You don't. You don't have the majority anymore.

James: A few people make a big difference. The makeup of the Senate makes a huge difference. You would need to have...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, man, but I don't, I just don't agree.

James: just saying. I know you don't agree.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They're not, they're not accomplishing hope and change.

James: I know, but...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They're accomplishing business.

James: That's not the same thing as not wanting to, though. That's not the same thing as not wanting to.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah Yeah, it is.

James: It's that.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It is because I don't, I don't care about what your intent.

James: It's that.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I care about what your outcome is.

James: Yeah, well, that's like saying that that's like saying that you're...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: What do you accomplish?

James: ah I'm trying to give a good analogy here. Chicago Bears take away some of your personal feelings about the Chicago Bears, okay?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I don't care about sports enough to have any personal feelings.

James: The players themselves want to win. The players want to win. They want to go and win. Damn it. But they don't.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Sure.

James: like um mean They have a 4-12 season. Does that mean that they had no intention of winning? No.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, but it means that what they did, it means that what they did wasn't good enough for them to win.

James: Didn't work. Correct. There you go. That's fine. I'll give you that. But the Democrats want to do. They didn't do enough to get what they want. They they couldn't overcome everything they wanted to do.

James: It doesn't mean that they're a conservative party and they don't want to do it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: okay but do But dude, like when was the last time that a Democrat okay did enacted some form of radical change and what was it?

James: Joe Biden, um and there's a number of things that people still haven't felt yet. And Obama with Joe Biden trying to get rid of everybody's student debt.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Radical. Which thing? Pick your pick your pick the most the most the one you argue for the most

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But he wasn't trying to get rid of everybody's student debt.

James: It was. It just kept getting shot down over and over and over again.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: no, no, but that's the thing.

James: They kept having to retweak it and retool it and trying to get it and retweak it again.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, he was he was going to get rid of $10,000 of student debt for everyone who who had a loan guaranteed by the federal government. $10,000. And he was going to give $20,000 if you had a Pell Grant.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It was $10,000 or $20,000. And most people have ah who have student loan debt have over 60k so no he was not trying to get rid of all student loan debt he was trying to win some votes by getting some student loan debt it was no it's 1.4 trillion dollars of student loan debt but he was trying to take ten thousand dollars off of everybody's it was like 15 for for some people and much less for many other people

James: It was a lot. Yeah, 1.6. and one point like

James: and and But there's a lot of things they're trying to do. mean, see here, the CHIPS Act was fucking huge. It will be transformative. Well, actually, there's a funny thing, too. I can't believe the Trump administration administration was going But the CHIPS and Science Act, right?

James: Incredibly transformative. It is fucking bonkers to me that Trump would want to get rid of it, right? Right.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: not bonkers to me because his entire his entire thesis was that Biden was the worst president ever and everything that he did was to like harm the country and he was actually a traitor.

James: ah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So why would you be for anything that he did?

James: Jesus.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Why would you admit that he did anything right?

James: Oh my God. But I mean, the thing is, it's is's about in semiconductor production chips in the U S so we're not relying on it what happened one second. We got to pause. We're going to pause. What's up? weapon so Either way.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, okay, we're back.

James: Long story short, we're back, you know, sorry, child emergency. But I mean, I mean, here it's, it's to make America produce semiconductor chips, you know, that we technically we wouldn't have to protect Taiwan if we didn't really want to, you know, boost all the domestic research, jobs, chips, you know, defense.

James: I mean, it's, it's truly, truly America first. Yeah. You know, why are we buying 90 something percent of our chips when we can make them all here, you know, and it would be transformative for decades and decades to come, you know, in so many ways, you know, there's that one.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: There's, mean, there's a lot of transforming.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i don't think that I don't think that that's radical. I don't think that an across-the-board infrastructure in like ah crucial national security, ah you know economically booming industry, you know like investing in American business,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: that's not That's not radical or transformative. like Obama bailed out the banks with like billions of dollars.

James: What

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: you know like Then ah Bush took us to war in Iraq and gave Halliburton and injected. We're constantly giving money to big businesses in America, picking a different industry.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like o that's not That's not radical or transformative.

James: about cars? What about cars, right? Under if Trump wouldn't be rolling everything back? They finalized the rule that said by 2032, which is not that far, seven years seven yeah seven years from now, right?

James: It would have had in place where like, you know, 60% of the cars had to be electric, you know, to get the climate change stuff done. I mean, to stop all the, you know, the pollution like that.

James: That would have been transformative, you know? things

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No.

James: things Things can be very transformative and hugely consequential, but it doesn't mean they happen overnight. Seven years is not that long.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's what I'm saying. Those things are not radical. here's this hi here's like a version Here's the opposite version of this argument that I had. okay All through the last year of the Biden presidency, I'm talking to my wife, who again is Ukrainian.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And she's saying, you know, Biden is basically giving us enough to say that he gave us something. And I'm saying like, no, Biden wants to give you, you know, all the things you need, but the Republicans are just not letting him. And he, and she's like, no, we needed like, like we're getting stuff like,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and now at this like super slow pace but like what we needed was attack them on the first day and we knew what we needed was helicopters at the beginning and like what we needed was like all of the things that we needed to win ah when we when we could use them to win like we needed planes and pilots and helicopters and air defense and like etc etc we needed the stuff on the day like getting it two and a half years later slowly hopes and prayers is not it and like this is the thing is like

James: oh Oh, yeah.

James: Oh, yeah. They they eventually get year later.

James: Yeah.

James: Yeah.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like I lost the argument, right?

James: Well, here.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Because because i was like well it wass like, well, presidents are limited in what they can do, blah, blah, blah.

James: It's a thing. Well. Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And then Trump comes in and what does he do? He just, he bulldozes everything. He runs over everything. He just, He's changing the, the voter, the way that voting works with executive order.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: He's eliminating departments of the government. He's putting WWE w e superstar women in charge of shit.

James: well

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: He's got bloggers running the FBI. He is burning shit the fuck down, man.

James: yeah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like, so to sit here and tell me that like the best Joe Biden could do is like, is like make a brittle investment in American business. Again, another like trickle down economics of 15 year play.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like,

James: Well, here's another thing.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Are you fucking kidding me?

James: Well, here's another thing.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like that's not transformative at all.

James: There's another flip side.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And that's not the most that he could have done.

James: Hold on. Hold on, though. You're giving Trump a lot more credit. Yes, he is coming in. And yes, he is trying to do all these things. And he's putting on the illusion that he's all powerful and I can just will it. And it's done.

James: Right. And it starts to get done. They go in there and these doge kids and they're fucking, you know, you know, fucking goons go in there, right? And they go in there with their guns and they try and shut people out and they lock them out of their building anything else. you know what happens?

James: It goes to court and they all say, yeah, you fucking can't do that. Put all those fucking signs back up. All those people for USAID, all the people for this department, all the people say, they all have to come back. You have to bring them all back. What?

James: What? Yeah. Fuck you. You have to bring them back. That was illegal.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: Okay, then all the things with like the Ukraine. Oh, we're doing this. We're going pause it. Well, it was already appropriated by Congress. He had to give the money. He could pause it for a minute and then they undid the pause a week later.

James: That money, they had to get delivered, right? All these big things that you're talking about, how he's just coming in with the bulldozer and changing everything. He is trying to. And so far, he keeps getting shut down by the courts because it's not legal.

James: Biden just didn't try to break the law.

James: Biden didn't try to break the law. Trump doesn't give a shit about the law. It's easy if you don't give a shit about the law or the constitution or, you know, the rules of how you govern, you know, just come in there. I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want.

James: And it looks like, oh my God, he's doing whatever the fuck he wants. And then you look at the news and a little bit later, it's like, oh my God, yes, he's trying to do whatever the fuck he wants. And then the courts say, yeah, you can't do whatever the fuck you want, dude. Yeah, I know you appointed me, but fuck you. You can't do that.

James: Hire them all back.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, so like okay so like

James: So I mean,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So if they're hiring them back, right? So this is the probationary employees. This is like, this is several thousand people, but here's, but here's what's happening with those people.

James: That was that one. There's also the people deporting everybody. the the

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Here's what's happening with those people. Okay.

James: i know.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They're, they're still on and they have been the entire time on administrative leave. So they're getting paid to not work. Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So like, and here's the thing, like there is,

James: That's the government's choice.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: it is an effective thing to get rid of an agency by paying people not to work.

James: I know.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Right? Because, like, some people are, like, some people are getting fired and they're like, well, okay, I'm just, I want to keep working.

James: but

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I need to pay my rent. I'm living paycheck to paycheck because I'm, you know, not, you know, whatever, not economically responsible or well off enough to not. So, they're they they moved on.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So like you're, you're having people who are going off to do other things. You are effectively getting the thing done. Yeah. Like, you know, the, the initial thing that you did might not stick, but the effect that you're having, okay, is still profound.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And like, this is the thing that like, like none of those things are, are radical. Like,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I don't think like yeah the most radical things I can think of is like Obama making the ACA.

James: Obamacare, right? Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Right. And like, or like, I guess like the, the, the most radical thing from, from Biden is like locking the price ah of insulin at like $35 or giving Medicare the ability to negotiate.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like those are like, you know, radical adjacent, but like, No one is doing anything as transformative as like saying like we're going to end homelessness and hunger by giving everyone ubi We're going to change.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: We're going to use the Emergency Powers Act to be like, there's not enough houses for people. So we're going to build half a million houses in the next, you know, 18 months.

James: He did. He did impose the 15% minimum corporate tax.

James: I mean, I know that's not, it doesn't sound like something radical, like ending slavery, ah but when you figure with George W. Bush and Trump, I mean, Exxon Mobil didn't pay a fucking dollar in tax. So imposing 15% minimum corporate taxes to Republicans, fucking radical.

James: What the 15%, you know i mean,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I mean, the i saw this i saw this graph the other day that was like the amount, like the the dollar amount of tax paid by immigrants was more than like 20 different companies.

James: yeah

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And it was like big companies, like like combined, not like individually, but combined because, and then like the chart would show like effective, it would show like their earnings in millions

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: their, the amount of taxes that they ended up having to pay and like what their effective tax rate was. and like, nobody had a 5% effective tax rate. Like all these companies were less.

James: Well, you remember...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Some of them were like, some of them were like in the negative, like they were getting like a massive refund.

James: If you remember... yeah If you remember BP, remember BP, the Deepwater Horizon oil spill when George W. Bush was there, in there it but the pipe burst, or or the thing caught on fire, then the pipe was down there and it was just pumping oil into the Gulf of Mexico for fucking however long was, weeks. You remember that?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: Yeah. Do you know what they do what knew what they paid in tax that year?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Nothing.

James: Not only did they not pay anything, they got reimbursed by the federal government.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Well, they had a catastrophe.

James: Yeah. Exactly. and they got their right off the oil spill cleanup stuff as deducting from their taxable income. And with everything else they ended up doing, they ended up getting money back from the federal government.

James: They paid less than nothing. They got money from the federal government.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: look, we have socialism in this country.

James: ah you Exactly. I know.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It's just only for businesses.

James: Exactly. That's Elon Musk, man. He's the fucking number one welfare queen.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I don't like the like, I say it sarcastically, but you say it like meaning it.

James: Well, he is. Elon Musk is ah welfare queen. He is. the du mean the The stereotypical thing that Reagan uses is, oh, these welfare queens, blah, blah, blah. right It always be some black person, whatever you know.

James: It wasn't a black person, but it's an African. An African-American. Elon Musk is a fucking welfare queen, man. He sucks the tit of America and just guzzles down, baby. you know He gets all that tax money. It's only thing that, you know, it's what makes him.

James: If it wasn't for that our tax money, he'd be nothing.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah You know, I think that like, you when you talk about him getting tax money, it's him creating a business

James: It's subsidies. It's subsidies. Government subsidies for him, for his companies. he never He would have never had any of this. He wouldn't be where he is without the government bailing him out and giving him tons of money.

James: his company SpaceX would be nothing without the U.S. Without the U.S. subsidies, there is no SpaceX.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, but our space program would be way behind if it were not for SpaceX. And electric cars would be nowhere near what it is.

James: no it wouldn't if they wouldn't have scrapped it if republicans wouldn't have no our space program was just fine as the envy of the globe until republicans said you know what why are we spending money on space we can give our rich buddies a whole bunch of money and let them do it in a corporate private way yay and it costs way more money how do

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It costs dramatically less.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: but

James: how you figure

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Prior to SpaceX, the cost of a launch, taking ah taking something up to space, was $250 million. Because they didn't have reusable rockets.

James: they didn't have reusable rockets. That doesn't mean anything.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: SpaceX invented, SpaceX made reusable rockets.

James: Yeah. Okay,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They brought the cost down to $16 to $25 million launch.

James: you don't think the U.S.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It's a 90% cost reduction.

James: government... You don't think the U.S. government would have done that with another 20 years of research and development? Come on, man. They would have gotten there, too.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I mean, another 20 years another twenty years of research development, we still wouldn't have it.

James: We got rid of...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like what

James: When did they get rid of... When they stop the space program here? The U.S. space program... ah a ah private when did they do it it was a long time before SpaceX because we were sending people up in Russian rockets for like 10 years hell like yeah and it probably would have been cheaper

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know, if the... If your question is, could the could NASA have done it had it been funded and incentivized properly?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yes. Yes.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: you know If we had done that instead of, I don't know, invading Afghanistan and Iraq and spending a billion dollars a day every single day for 20 years, yeah, we could have afforded a lot of shit.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I feel like like us going into iraq Afghanistan, and Afghanistan, was like that was like the American version of like making ourselves go bankrupt the way that Russia did trying to win the space race.

James: Well, they didn't go bankrupt trying to win the space race. They went bankrupt trying to win the arms race. Yeah. yeah they They never, they were never, I mean, they they they won the first, the first shot in the space race. And after that, it was all America.

James: They, you know.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, they had the first satellite and the first the first rocket and the first animal, the first person.

James: Yeah. They got there first. And then, yeah. We went to the moon and never looked back, you know.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah. Yeah.

James: oh But yeah.

James: You know, SpaceX, man, i mean, shit, they got $3.7 billion of subsidies by 2024. SpaceX's, you know, tax dollar tax dollars might go and right to Elon, $3.7 billion, you know?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah. but I still see what the Democrats are doing as so much more conservative because like the Democrats aren't trying to The Democrats are aren't taking government and saying it has to fundamentally change. They're not looking at like the social landscape and saying it needs to be radically different.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: they're not pushing for They're not pushing for change. like even Even you, right when we were talking about Bernie and Hillary, okay I was like, Bernie's going to come in, going to this radical stuff. He's going to make health care free for everyone. He's going to make education free for everyone. like These are going to be like massively...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: transformatively you know valuable things we're going to change the way we tax people we're going to change the way inheritance works we're going to change the blank checks go into the military like those are the things that are that are transformative we're to rebuild the middle class that's transformative that's that's radical okay and like the democrats oppose that Because like this goes back to the like oligarchs versus corporatists because the Democrats are funded by corporations.

James: I don't think that's what it is.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It's how you get like Obama coming in on like a wave of support of like a grassroots organizer and like...

James: Wall Street. Wall Street money. No, was Wall Street money. it was dark money. Hillary actually had more of the grassroots money than against Obama. He had the Wall Street dark money before it wasn't reported.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, but I mean, i mean he was like he was a he was a grassroots organizer.

James: ma Sure, okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, but then he comes in and what does he do? he With with the the entire government stacked in his favor.

James: He was responding through the Overton window and he was trying to govern more from the center and try to bring everybody along and make...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Right, but like this is the thing.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like Why why do we keep trying to bring them along?

James: yeah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They have shown that like they will...

James: I know.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like they will

James: They got better. He got better. He learned. See, that's where he fucked up. If we don't have Hillary, a lot more shit would have happened right off the bat because she knew by that point in her career, in her life, she knew there were battle lines and it's just do it, get it done.

James: There ain't no... She knew what you're saying. you know it's like yeah You can't just play along and get along and try to good bring them along with it. She knew it's a fucking knife fight. And she was ready for That's why she was making fun of him on the campaign trail in the primary. like He says it's going to be hope and change and the clouds are going to open and the sun will come down and everything's going to be... yeah it's like yeah no She knew the reality of the situation. She...

James: shit, the Clintons in the ninety s Newt Gingrich and Republicans in the 90s, she knew what it's like. She knew it's, you get in there, you have to get your shit done, they are going to fuck you over every single chance they get.

James: And Obama was naive and young and green. In his second in his second term, he got way better. Because he realized, wow, yeah, they're never going to fucking let anything go through, even if it's good for the country. You know?

James: So... But again, man Democrats want hope and change. they want people They want idealist people that everybody falls in love with. Then they get in there and they see the reality. Even you with Bernie. Here, Bernie.

James: It's an idealist. You fell in love with Bernie. Yes, this is the message. Yes, yes. And he's like, yeah, we can do this. We have millions of people marching out the streets. Meet millions and millions and millions of people. right yeah it sounds good. People fall in love with that message.

James: If he would have got elected, what would have fucking happened? he would have had a Republican house or Senate or something like that in there. He would have had you know, no majority had Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema still, here which effectively gave them a 50, 50 Senate.

James: And when he wants to do all these things, it wouldn't have happened. And then you would, instead of ID, like ideal idealizing Bernie Sanders, you would be saying, fuck him, man. Even Bernie Sanders said all that shit. And look, nothing's getting done because that's not the way shit gets done.

James: You know, yeah,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, i I disagree because I feel like a lot of the reason that like the down-ballot turnout was the way that it was in 2016 was because of the way that people wanted Bernie, and then they snaked in Hillary.

James: If they wanted Bernie, then they could have fucking voted for him in the primaries, man. The majority voted for Hillary. God, I'm tired of this fucking Bernie thing. He got the minority of the votes. He ran into the Democratic Party, and he lost to Democratic voters in the states. And he didn't get, even without superdelegates, he didn't even have a majority of the delegates.

James: The majority supported Hillary. He's a Democrat. God! he he should He could have ran as a third party and really fucked everybody like no and like Nader. He would have had a bigger share of the vote than Nader, for sure. Would have had the same result.

James: Would have split people on the left. But, I mean, shit. Fuck. He lost. Oh, God, I'm so tired of 2016. That was so long ago. But it still makes me mad when people still keep bringing it up, though.

James: He lost the primary. Without superdelegates. Yeah?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I mean, It was 696.92 to 700.47. 49.59% 49.84%. point nine two to seven hundred point forty seven

James: know

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: forty nine point five nine percent to forty nine point eight four percent

James: If you look at the popular vote, he had she had 16,917,853 voters to his 13 million. She beat him by 3.7 million more people voted for Hillary than Bernie without superdelegates.

James: That's just 3.7 million more voters.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: because most people don't vote in primaries.

James: No, and the people who do are Democrats, and ran as a Democrat. That's what you get, man. You run in a Democratic primary, you're running for a Democrat. 4 million more Democrats voted for Hillary over Bernie. That's why she was the nominee, plain and simple.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: do you know Do you know why more people voted for Hillary than Bernie? Because the Democrats are conservative.

James: And look at the map. And look at the map at the states that Hillary won and look at the map of the states that Bernie won. Right?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Where's the map? Show me the map.

James: Here, I'm gonna put a little screenshot here.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i don't I don't have a map.

James: um I'm putting it here in our O Brother News thing here. Just...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Wait,

James: Wait, I took a picture of the map of the world. Hold on, let me see if this pastes.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: where'd you put it?

James: Here we go.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: If you paste, put it Wait, where?

James: yeah we go Here's the second one. The second one.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Where?

James: O Brother News Discord.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i swear, you put stuff everywhere but the notion for the episode and I have to pull it all up We should all Uh-huh, I'm looking at it

James: I don't even have Notion open. if you go to Oh Brother News in here, now look at these states. California went to Hillary. Nevada went to Hillary. Arizona went to Hillary. right Illinois went to Hillary. New York, Pennsylvania, most of the North, all of the Eastern states that would vote for a Democrat in the thing went to Hillary.

James: You had Ohio, Kentucky, blah, blah, blah. All the yellow states went to Hillary. Look at the green states, the states that Bernie won. You think Bernie would have taken Oklahoma, Kansas, Wyoming, Utah, Idaho, the Dakotas in the general election? Probably not.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Wisconsin, Michigan.

James: Maybe, maybe, maybe those two, yes.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yes, I think he would have. ah think I think he would have.

James: Maybe those two. But look at the other ones. I mean, either way, it's like, yeah, the eastern seaboard, California, all the all except for two of those states, Michigan and Wisconsin.

James: And I guess cal it's ah Oregon, right? Oregon and Washington state. Those are the only blue states, really. Vermont, you know, even Maine's a red. It's like split 50 50. I mean, most of the Democratic states and most of the Democratic voters voted for Hillary.

James: Take out that sea of red states in the middle of the country there. And it doesn't look too good for Bernie there. That's why Hillary got the nomination. Four million more votes.

James: Anyway.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I don't have the facts to back up my argument, but I am confident that if Bernie had won 2016, been the candidate that Trump would not have won.

James: This.

James: This. Hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Everything would be different.

James: Hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That the down ballot would have been different. Like,

James: yeah yeah oh either way it doesn't really matter i mean shit man i blame george w bush for all of our problems right now anyway if gore had won the supreme if the supreme court if john robertson then wouldn't have given the country to george w bush after he lost in 2000 the country be a lot different

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: What a wild bit of savory that was.

James: I know. Just think about how much different the world would be. Iraq, i you know, the Iraq and Afghanistan stuff wouldn't have happened. 9-11 probably wouldn't have happened. You know what mean?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Probably would have happened differently. Osama.

James: i don't know, man. I mean, they were asleep at the fucking wheel, man. They were told that Obama was going to go... Oh, sorry, not Obama. Jesus. They were told that the Republicans would love that someday.

James: They were told that, you know, at ah Bin Laden...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: osama

James: Yeah, Osama, not Obama. Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Osama, not Obama.

James: They were told that Osama was going to come here and how they're going to do with the planes. I mean, say what you want about the Democrats, man. They're fucking policy wonks. They're nerds. They're bookworms. They pay attention to these things. You know, they would have been on that shit. They would have been looking for things.

James: Something may have happened. It probably wouldn't have been exactly like it was 9-11. If it had been Hillary, she would have shot that fucking plane down. They would have at least a second one wouldn't have hit. You know what Granted, people who hated it, but, you know, she wouldn't sat there reading My Pet Goat for five minutes shell-shocked, staring at a book, not knowing what in the fuck to even do.

James: And she would have got some shit done. You know, Democrats are usually smarter than this.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: oh god I can't really remember. I was so young. I don't even think I know all the details. He was remembering he like he was like at a children's like a school or something.

James: He was at school and he was reading My Pet Goat.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and He was reading a book.

James: The kids were reading My Pet Goat and he was sitting there reading My Pet Goat. I don't remember if the book was actually upside down or if that's just a funny memory in my head, but he's sitting there with My Pet Goat and they came and whispered to him that um the United States is under attack.

James: Mr. President, the United States is under attack. That's what they came and told him. That's what they whispered in his ear. You know, the United States is under attack. And then his eyes just got all buggy and he just froze and held that book.

James: And he just stared straight, not turning pages, staring straight ahead for like five minutes straight. And they came back in there and they're like sir, you know, we have to come, you know, and then he, kind and he stood up and he walked out there with them.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Why didn't they just take him? They should have just like, know what I mean?

James: They, I, i didn't I don't know, man, but whatever.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like, it's probably Chaney calling the shots at that point anyway.

James: He just froze. Then they got there and, You know, whatever. i mean, shit happens. i mean, long story short, though, I mean, but yeah, their i mean their whole, this is way off track.

James: mean, we're such a fucking tangent from the current modern world.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: we so

James: I'm just saying, though, man, God, if you wouldn't have had all that stuff, you wouldn't have had Iraq, you wouldn't have those things. Money would have not been wasted over there. We would have still had a budget surplus.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Climate stuff would have been so different.

James: God, because they inherited the budget surplus.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: Debt and deficit would have been probably still cranking. Man, the would have been so much different.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Probably would have raised the minimum wage.

James: Huge tax rates, to the rich wouldn't have... They would have worked... Yeah, I mean, God, the the the the fortunes of Americans and the fortune of America and the...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: When was Citizens United?

James: So changed by 2000. Citizens United, that was what? 2004? I don't remember when Citizens United was exactly... to I don't remember, but but you wouldn't have the same judges.

James: You wouldn't have the same judges on the bench. You wouldn't have gotten Citizens United.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: know what I mean?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yep.

James: oh Oh, man.

James: Oh, when was it? When was the court case? Well, it's 15 years later now, so it's 2009. Yeah, 2008, 2009. But either way, man.

James: ah but either way man We got from a big tangent. Jesus Christ. It's going to be fun editing this episode. and

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, we're just going to leave the tangent in. It's fine.

James: Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: it's just us and fan anyway

James: That's true.

James: Either way, man, I just think I'm... Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i think that like the the debate about the soul of the parties is a more interesting conversation than rehashing of the news when when it's just a rehashing of the news i think like

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: you know, there's a point of differentiation or, you know, it's the, it is the, the things that in our opinions, and I think specifically in the ways that they're different, because we both feel very strongly and, and have like a lot where we're lined up, but also like a lot of places where we're diverging.

James: Yeah.

James: Yeah. Yeah.

James: yeah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And I think, I think that's a pretty interesting thing as like an angle, like as like take something new and use that to go into something from the past or something that's more of like a larger,

James: yeah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: philosophical discussion i think those are more interesting things that we're going to be able to do better than trying to yeah like we're we're not going to like journalist

James: Just talk about the news.

James: I can talk about the same story that everybody else is talking about with less information and less, ah you know, without without my ah public speaking degrees and my, you know, communications degrees and my years in the media.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: that

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and no camera crew yeah exactly exactly

James: Yeah. Yeah, I have a good camera. I got this big light overhead that makes me look at halo above me, which is why we're just talking. Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: By the way, I am i am ah did do some research on switching us over to Riverside um and it's not gonna be too hard

James: Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: to to, whatchamacallit, it's not gonna be too hard to transfer the hosting. um So like the whole switch won't be, like it won't be very hard at all actually.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So um we can do it, we might just, we might switch to Riverside

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like just audio at first, just to like, I'll do the switch cause it's pretty simple.

James: you know

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And then we can still, I still think there's going to be more fine tuning in the video stuff. We're just like how much you want to show versus talk through. But yeah, I feel like there was something else that I really wanted to talk about this week.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: What else? What else?

James: so

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know, one of the things I, what,

James: Oh my god. I think we should talk about it. I don't know if we're going to talk about or not. But i think I just think needs to be said at the risk of

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: hu

James: ah a slander lawsuit Steve Whitcoff is Vladimir Putin's fleshlight.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i don't think I don't think we're high profile enough to sue at this point.

James: He he is He is absolutely his, his, his cum sock. That's what Steve Whitcoff is.

James: And, in no, actually, know, it made me think of Steve Whitcoff. I was following the Wikipedia thing after one little link, you know, where i was reading about the democratic thing and I clicked on something else.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Thank

James: I was over 10 window window was still up, you know, And I clicked on another little link just from there. says argument to moderation. Argument to moderation, also known as the false compromise. Argument from the middle ground, fallacy of gray.

James: It's the fallacy that the truth is always in the middle of two opposites. It does not necessarily suggest that an argument for the middle solution or for compromise is always fallacious, but rather applies primarily in cases where such a position is ill-informed, unfeasible, or impossible, or where an argument is incorrectly made that a position is correct simply because it is in the middle.

James: Right? That just made me think of Steve Witkoff, who's not even going in the middle of Vladimir Putin's absolutely retarded, stupid...

James: Ukraine is not even really a country. It was, you know, bullshit, bullshit. Crimea was never part of this. We never recognized Ukraine, even though we did all this, you know, that they have, you know, but, but that's Vladimir Putin on one side, and right?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Well, you hear that there there they're saying they won't even agree to a ceasefire unless... Uh-huh.

James: That's, that's their side. And Ukraine's on the side saying, Hey, uh, yeah, we want, we want to have our country. we We want to be alive. We don't want our hospitals and schools being blown up every fucking day.

James: You know, Hey, uh, Yeah, it'd be great not to be invaded and have our people slaughtered and our children stolen and taken God knows where and has no God knows what's happening to them. And, and ah you know, our people being, you know, literally skinned alive and killed and raped and tortured and everything else that's going on. Right.

James: OK, that's their side.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Starved.

James: Steve Whitcoff is not even in the middle between those two sides. Steve Whitcoff is saying, all right, I'm going to negotiate this for Trump. We're going to negotiate a peace. Yeah, fuck you, Ukraine. You never even should have been a country.

James: What's wrong with you trying to defend your country? Hey, sir there are some legitimate questions.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Standing there next to Russia looking like a democracy. You were asking for a war of aggression.

James: There are some legitimate questions here about whether or not they are they they are even entitled to nationhood. Tucker Carlson, his interview with Tucker Carlson. Everybody should watch it. Khrushchev was a Ukrainian, and that's why he gave them Crimea.

James: Not true. And wow, Can't you even Google? He's just saying bullshit. It's not even true. He was talking about the regions.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Thank you.

James: This is, this is insane. It's preposterous, preposterous that they even tried to take over Ukraine. They only wanted those regions in Ukraine that they feel is rightfully theirs.

James: And then he says, you know, like Crimea, Donbass, and Donbass, by the way, is not a region. I mean, it's a region, but it's not a, it's not a, a ah not an oblast, right?

James: You know? and he couldn't name any other ones you know like Crimea and Donbass and up you know the the other regions and Tucker Carlson tried helping him out you know with the names of the other regions this is the guy the point man the guy negotiating he doesn't even know the fucking oblasts you know that Russia is now trying to claim you know forget the fact that they had Kiev surrounded and they were going through all the other places they were trying to take Ukraine you know but Now Steve Wyckoff is just, no, they were never trying to do that.

James: Russia never did that. They're just legitimate questions here. And, you know, they they really want to please. and And Vladimir Putin, I really have great respect for him. He's such a good, he's an honest broker. and He's so trustworthy. And I just love his nutsack, you know?

James: Yeah. And that's the guy. Yeah. Ugh. Gag.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: yeah yeah it's it's extremely it's extremely frustrating

James: Ah. So.

James: It's infuriating. It's infuriating. It's so infuriating.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: you know and here's the thing that doesn't make any sense

James: I don't know how, I don't know. oh my God. I don't know how Zelensky, don't know how he cannot go 300 on these people, and just kick them into a pit.

James: I mean, Jesus Christ. I, the man, I don't know how he does it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I know how.

James: I know how, I know why I know how, because he has to,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I know how. be I know how because he's Ukrainian.

James: But not just that, but I mean, but no, I mean, Jesus Christ, the self-control and seeing the bigger picture. And knowing and biting your tongue. God, I could never do what he's doing.

James: I could never bite my tongue and act like, yes, we want peace. no No, we're so grateful, Americans. Yes, we're going to do this. And yeah, well, hey, we'll agree. And just try to play the game, you know.

James: And I mean, God, I don't see how he could do that, man. oh my God. Hats off to Zalinski, man.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: because you had Because he has to.

James: I know because he has to, but shit. God.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I

James: I couldn't imagine. I could not imagine being in his position.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: it's

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and know there's a lot of criticisms of Zelensky from Ukrainians.

James: Oh, yeah. the Yeah, Steve Witkoff saying that all these areas that Russia is in control of right now, well, there were already referendums. All those people voted to be part of Russia, which they didn't.

James: There's video of it. People had machine guns to their head with ballots. They still didn't even vote for Russia. They just handed in blank ballots. you know And then they sat there on video counting b blank ballots with with military people there with guns pointed out. like, oh, yep, all these votes.

James: Yep, here's another vote for Russia. There's another vote. We want to join Russia. And they're they're literally showing blank ballots. You can see it. And they're just acting like it's a normal ballot that they're counting. And you can see it with your eyes.

James: And that's what Steve Whitcoff says was a fair election. They just, they voted in a referendum to join Russia. So I don't know what Russia, what Ukraine's bitching about.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: God. It's sickening. It's so sickening. Sorry. That was my rant.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, it's good.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: There's a I was listening to On Freedom while I was i was driving.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: was driving... are we at? I'm just going to make a footnote. ah I was driving for... ah wait.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Gosh. Okay. Okay. I'll remember to edit this out. was driving for Lyft. and i was um I was listening to On Freedom and it was making me cry.

James: Yep.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: there is ah There's this part at the beginning where he talks about how he he went to a village that had been, ah were they saying?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: They were calling it, they were saying that it was liberated. And he was like, well, the Ukrainians say that you know when the Russians leave that it's deoccupied.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: not liberated because the absence of tyranny doesn't equate to freedom like you know once you can have train service that's when they switch it they'll say that it's liberated but he was talking about like this thing that had happened like in this town there were 37 people who hid in a basement in

James: yeah

James: Yep.

James: ah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and of thirty seven people sixteen of them died and like I don't know, like eight more were, I wish I remember the numbers better, but it was like, like it was over half of them, right.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: We're like ah bunch people died and a bunch more people were like seriously injured. And like the rest of them, like, you know, starved to death and hung out in a basement for weeks with bodies and like managed to not die, you know?

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And like, now there's this woman sitting outside a the remnants of her house in a, in a tent because now they have tents.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And so like, yeah, it's better that, you know, she has a shelter, but she has like, she has like one chair, you know?

James: Turn off from the basement. Nothing. Yep.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And like, so like, you know, she can't invite someone into her house or like host or like, like, like you don't have your, you don't have the ability to have dignity when you're forced to live in a tent because your home has been destroyed.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And like, this was like such an affecting story that it was making me cry. But like the, I think like it carries more weight because I know so many other stories, you know, like if you watch the, the couple of like Ukrainian documentaries, like I think one of them's winter on fire.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And the other one and I saw was like the revolution of dignity or was it was about that. i remember what the name of it was, but you hear those, you hear the stories of like, this was like something on the news the other day.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It was, um it was a general, it was like a former, i was, He's like a Democratic senator, I think, and he's bald and he used to be a ah general.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: you know what talking about?

James: Bald?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I feel like you.

James: Former general in the Senate?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I think so.

James: In the Senate?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And a Democrat.

James: Oh, oh, well, he's a Democrat now? No, no, wait.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: but it What's his name?

James: No, no,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: What's the name?

James: I have no idea what you're talking about, actually. No, I'm reading...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Dang it, okay, i'm gonna have to find um to find the video and like send it to you, because it's maybe um maybe he's a congressman or something and I'm just like wrong about it, I thought he was, swear he was pilot maybe?

James: general. He couldn't have been in general.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I thought it was general, maybe it's pilot.

James: I have no idea who you're talking about. I mean, other than Mark Kelly. I mean, Mark Kelly was...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: that's sort of i think I think that's what I'm thinking of, isn't he bald?

James: He is bald.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's what thinking of.

James: Okay. but

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's him. It's him. What was he? He was a what?

James: He's an astronaut. He's a Navy captain.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay, sorry. yeah I'm just getting all these details wrong.

James: Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But I was watching Mark Kelly, right? He was talking on one of the MSNBC show.

James: Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It wasn't a blog. It was a legacy media thing. okay like it wasn't a it wasn't a blog it was a a legacy media thing and he's like they're they're having a woman like tell her story and the anchor talks about the story and they go to park he's like yeah so like you know you told part of the story but the part of the story that you didn't tell i'm gonna tell because i think people need to hear about it and he goes on to tell like the rest of the story and the rest of the story is that this woman was a nurse in uh an occupied city and the city has been deoccupied but

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: it's like when she tells about the stories of things that happened she talks about how they raped children in front of their parents and then they killed the children then they killed the parents you know like there are so many stories like that of just like of just like you know auschwitz nazi level like like just like just evil you know just like

James: Oh yeah. Yep.

James: Yep.

James: A lot.

James: Torture, yeah. and Just absolute. Evil.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: just like The only response like that that feels appropriate is to just savagely delete them. you know and like Everyone who thought of supporting them, you just that's the only thing that feels that feels appropriate and you feel like you would be dirty from having done it because they're so horrible.

James: of

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: To have whatever the guy's name is, i i wi Pete Wiscoff,

James: P-Whisk out here.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: The flesh, you know, Putin's flesh sock.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah

James: people call from or Steve Witko.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, Steve Kumsak.

James: Steve Witko. Steve Kumsak.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Steve Kumsak, you know, be like negotiating completely on the side of Russia is it's just despicable.

James: Steve Kumsak. There you go.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: If you know, the more you know, the more despicable you know that it is.

James: Yeah.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But ah even completely aside from that, okay, just from like, ah just purely from like ah an America first position, okay, our trading partners over the last 80 years in North America and South America and Europe, okay, if you just take the North American countries and the European countries, right, the North American countries have like, I'm gonna get the number of trillions wrong,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: but I have in my brain 76. The North American countries have like a lot of trillions and the Europeans have 26 trillions in their GDP. all the year All of Europe's GDP, 26 trillion.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Russia's GDP is 2 trillion. They're a gas station with nukes. They have nothing, right?

James: ye no

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So like, why would you like, you know, aggressively stop trading with the people who have $26 trillion dollars a year And instead choose to trade with the people who have $2 trillion dollars a year? Okay...

James: that's That's easy.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like

James: That's easy.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: okay

James: Because one is a dictator. Who does whatever he wants and criminal behavior and can launder you tons of money on illegal crypto money and everything else and just do it because every person in power and in positions of authority in Russia are criminals.

James: And it's a criminal enterprise. It literally is. That is what happened. with russia after the fall of the soviet union criminals scooped up little parts of industry kind of like you know like like the robber barons in the united states and they all became like a criminal network putin runs it and that's why putin gets a cut of everything and it's a criminal enterprise so what does one criminal like likes doing deals with another criminal you know it's kind of like the whole honor among thieves type thing you can't do business with the you know democratically elected people who have oversight and will watch this shit because that does not benefit you.

James: You need to do deals with another criminal. Done.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You're completely right. I'm doing the thing where I assume there people negotiating from a genuine... a differing opinion.

James: No, and that's another thing, actually. there's ah There's another good thing because, um, Oh, my shit. I remember I was watching ah another podcast. i can't remember i was watching. And they're talking about, ah like, John Mearsheimer, right? Famous political scientist.

James: When I was in political science classes at, you know, ah you know Indiana University or whatever, like can know they would to always talk about this. And this guy about realism and blah, blah, blah. Realism. you know You know, big power countries, you know.

James: They always... Interned in negotiations, ah was it power um ah power politics, whatever it's called. I can't remember the term right now. But yeah, saying that nations will always always go with what their interest is. And that's always their primary thing. It's their own interest.

James: That is what they always negotiate with, whatever's in their own interest, right? Which makes it seem like a transactional type of administration like Trump would make sense. Oh, they must be doing it for your country, right?

James: But you can easily see ah million times over when you, when when countries just don't do that. That is not the way countries do behave. You know, um there are plenty of times when it would not be in our country's direct best interest to say, get involved with, um, you know,

James: um

James: Bosnia right the Serbs right in the 90s right the Serbians were committing genocide down there right they were killing all the Muslim people in there and going to Bosnia and they're doing all this stuff What is what was our nation's interest in it?

James: There was none really other than the fact that it was the right thing to do to stop it There's a genocide going on and we can stop it know what? Fuck it. We need to show the world We still are the ones that people can look at in the 90s, right?

James: Stop a genocide. Boom, and we did it. Yay! There really was nothing in it for us at the time. Tiny little thing. I mean, Serbia and Croatia and Bosnia, war-torn, you know, country. you know mean there was not There was nothing really there at the time other than to do the right thing, you know?

James: And there's plenty of examples of where we try to do the right thing. When... um Assad and and Putin were killing all the people in Syria, right? And, you know, Obama and them like, hey, you know what? We're going to put a no-fly zone. we're gonna and We're going to stop this. We're going to, you know, so stop them, right? And we're going to do strikes and things like that, you know, right?

James: What was the real thing for America at the time? Eh, not really much. I mean, maybe give Russia a black eye or something, you know but there wasn't really anything in it for us, right?

James: Sometimes you do it because it's the right thing to do, you know?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Uh-huh.

James: um you know, so, but yeah, like in this in this case, Trump, what you're saying, doing negotiations. Why would they take the side of Russia? It is not because it's in the United States' best interest.

James: It's not. So if you do that, oh What is it? What else could it be if it's not in our nation's best interest? And why are we going to side with the the the group that has explicitly said their mission is to destroy the West and America, United States?

James: You know, it's obviously not because it's best for the country. It's because it's what's best for Trump.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Because that's for Trump. And the other thing i was going to say that I was thinking of as you were starting to talk was about how a recession is basically a sale for rich people.

James: What's the sale for rich people?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: A recession.

James: Well, yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So like, you know, in a in a recession, a lot of people stop earning money.

James: True.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But people who earn money by having money continue to, you know, their wealth will be less.

James: They buy a lot more.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: but they hold the same assets. Right. And then everything becomes cheaper because people who are downstream, who don't have like huge amounts of money, can't weather it.

James: Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So a lot of businesses close, a lot of retail spaces go empty and they just buy up real estate and they buy up investments.

James: Yep.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know, when Tesla stock goes down, somebody comes in and buys a bunch of it because it's on sale. Like a recession is, is a sale for rich people. That's not my idea. That's from, um,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: was an Instagram video of someone who used to be like, a they used to be in like wealth management for somebody. And they were like, I was was in the rooms with all these people all the time. And like, they would talk about a recession. Like it's just a sale.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like you talk about like, you know, Black Friday, that's how they talk about a recession.

James: yeah

James: oh

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: All right. So,

James: I don't

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: um couple things I want to do before we as we're wrapping up one is that several episodes ago I went on a rant about what the Democrats need to do and Bernie and AOC heard me and they they were like you know what Gabe we agree and we're going to do it fighting for fighting oligarchy tour and they hit the road and they have been selling out arenas and blowing up

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah Love to see it and love to be able to remind a fan that I was right.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And I would love for more of them to do the same thing. That's the energy that we need. um The.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: the The other thing is like that, um you know, I'm seeing articles from BBC and The Guardian about how Chuck Schumer should resign. So, you know, while I was quite colorful in my dissatisfaction,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah it is also a popular opinion that, like, this is not the strategy that we need. um Which brings me back around to your point, ah which is about the 3.5% rule, which is that the thing that that has always, every time it's ever happened,

James: um

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It has resulted in revolutionary change. If 3.5% of the population of a nation goes into continuous protest until and if they they do it for you know a few weeks, a few months, like they go into continuous protest, they always get change.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It's happened over and over and over again. I'm going to link a video where somebody talks about it and he talks about a Harvard study that studied a whole bunch of different times that this has happened over the last hundred years it has like a ton of examples of it working out this way i can't remember some book or just like a research paper but it was somebody that was like a woman from harvard who did the research so um to your point like 3.5 percent of the people in the streets and this is like the thing that i was thinking about when i was talking about you know shutting down the government because shutting down the government was the the

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: was the best play for the Democrats to get 3.5% of the population in continuous protest. So, i mean, I guess we missed our first shot. We have another shot in like five and a half more months.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So we'll see what the state of things are is then and what we do. And I hope we do something different than rolling over for nothing. um

James: I started to laugh when when you brought up Chuck Schumer.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Well, yeah.

James: I was trying to Google, at the same time you bring up Chuck Schumer, I was going to Google his polo numbers, right? And I was just laughing because as I typed in polling Chuck Schumer, what my keyboard typed out was polling Cuck Schumer.

James: started laughing to myself. was like, oh shit, polling Cuck Schumer.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: its ah i guess I just drilled it into your brain that is his name now

James: It just typed it in. ah The H just didn't happen. The H didn't happen. It was so hilarious. that It was totally unintentional, you know?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: it's a silent age

James: But Here's the thing, though. I don't think he's going to go anywhere, really. um You know,

James: surprisingly, you know, here's a nice story from five days ago. It says, Harris dominates in poll on who Democrats want as next president with AOC in third, you know.

James: So, yeah, they were doing a 2028 primary until right now. Kamala Harris tops out. AOC comes in third, you know. She's 36.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: If the 20 in the 2028 primary, it would be Kamala Harris.

James: If it were held today.

James: That's who right now, that's who the polling is of five days ago. That's who the Democrats won. 36% said Kamala. Yeah. said kamala

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: What was it like an open poll or did they like give them three choices?

James: ah yeah is It was an open poll. Kamala Harris came in at 36%. Bernie Sanders, let's

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So,

James: see, it says 36%. Ocasio-Cortez, who was touring with the U.S., you know, trump with Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, was in third place with 5%. Sanders, it doesn't say here, it says a Tim Waltz was tied with AOC at 5%. Gavin Newsom is at 5%.

James: um After Harris, the most popular response was 13% with don't know or no opinion. 10% chose Pete Buttigieg. Mark Cuban and Josh Shapiro had 4% each.

James: I mean, so, yeah, it was an open-ended thing.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: John Ossoff didn't make the list.

James: Nope.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Did no one see his speech?

James: His speech or anything at the hearing the other day?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Oh, both, both were awesome, but he gave a, i saw it off to find it.

James: yeah I didn't see a speech, but...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I'll send it to you. It's, it's good. It's real good.

James: Yeah, but they were saying that account the time is now for Harris to declare she's going run or not, you know, because she has a big, you know, as right now, she's still the one person who everybody in the party, 36%, is like, yep.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know, You know what I don't want the Democrats to do?

James: I know what you don't want them to do, and I don't know how you can say it politically correct, but yes, you don't want them to put a woman or a black person.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I don't want the Democrats to want to run someone who is not a white man because they have not shown an ability to succeed with that strategy and and when we are in the and when we are in the worst place politically we've ever been

James: I know.

James: well Well, they did in 2008 and 2012.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: is not the time for

James: I don't know, man.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: for breaking the glass ceiling.

James: know I think? know what, though? Here's the thing. Joe Biden ran for president like four times. And he never got anywhere before, right?

James: When did he win? After Trump fucked up this country big time. And I think... You would have been right in 2020 about Bernie.

James: I think Bernie, I think any person with a pulse with a D next to their name was going to be Trump in 2020. I mean, especially if they were white, but he fucked this country up so bad.

James: Americans just have really short attention spans and memories, right?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I mean, honestly, I would love it for it to be AOC. I mean, I would love for it to be ac I'd love it be people to judge.

James: I like her. i don't think she's,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i would

James: I want to see AOC primary.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: At this point, I would be so happy to have a Kamala Harris presidency.

James: I want to see AOC primary Schumer. And I'd be okay. I like i love AOC. you know I really do like her.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Because

James: You know what? She's actually a good Democrat.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i almost don't want her to go like and like run for the president as much as I would love to see her be president. Because i would like to get more years of like, you know, political spotlight out of her.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I would like more years of service from her.

James: Oh my god.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But I mean, you know, like if she's, she's the closest thing to like somebody that Bernie can, can just like pass the torch to. And she's young. And maybe if we like actually give somebody young a chance, it will, you know,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: lead to like a bigger change, a sweep of like a bunch more young people getting in at different levels of government, which could be much more impactful. And I guess like, you know, there are a lot of people who voted for Trump and voted for AOC because they have that same like radical change, burn it all down energy.

James: Oh.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So, I mean, I just, I just, I just care. The only thing I care most about winning. The second thing that I care about is like when you win, that you go hard.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That you go fucking hard. I don't want somebody who's going to like barely win or sweep and have a massive you know mandate, for peace.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: don't want another... you know sue for peace

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i don't want another Obama won. At all.

James: I don't either. But no.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like there's nothing There's nothing worse you could do to the Democratic Party than like then sell hope and change and deliver business as usual yet again. ah feel like...

James: Yeah. Although, I mean, the funny thing about Biden is after Trump won, after trump after Trump's first term, business as usual was such a welcome hope and change ah because Trump was unusual.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: it what it it was...

James: Trump was so horrid that simply like in on tyranny. I mean, one of the things defend institutions, right? Do you think like that?

James: You don't mean some of these rules in here, what Biden was doing was a lot of the right things, you know, believe in truth and don't, you know, don't fall to this other stuff here, you know,

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah. right.

James: ah you know, remember the professional ethics doing the thing, all these core rules on here, you know, that, you know, lessons about it, right? Biden was doing that playbook and yes, but institutions, defending institutions doing this like that, not trying, trying to show everybody that, you know what?

James: Government can be good. The pandemic response was great. lowest poverty ever, like, well, in going back 50, 60 years, where the guy right?

James: Doing great things, and for a couple years, like, you know, really brought the country back. You know what I mean? And then, you know, yes, inflation took off a little bit. It did that fucking worldwide, people.

James: God damn it, you know? But, like, Save the country, not by radical change. Did a lot of really good progressive things. And yes, they'd go slower than everybody liked. But...

James: Simply by being sane, doing things the way it's supposed to be you know, returning to normalcy, which after four years of Trump was a huge change. God, I can't believe everybody forgot what the first term and right now what it is under Trump.

James: Every fucking day, you cannot... interact with another human being without hearing the word Trump ten times in a day. It is impossible talking to other humans to not hear Trump at least a couple of times a day.

James: Everybody, every day, all about what Trump's doing now. What is Trump doing now? da da That's not normal. Politics is usually boring. Usually politics is kind of boring to people. I mean, yes, but there's political junkies and people like me who watch and stuff like that, but the average lay person doesn't usually talk politics all day long. And they're not usually horrified by what's going on in politics every single day, you know?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: uh-huh

James: And that's the way it's supposed to be. So in that way, Biden was selling open change just by being status quo because it was a return to, hey, hey, people, America, hey, America, America, you know, I mean it, I mean it.

James: You know? but Let's not not all talk about you know destroying the world.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You can, you guys hint guys can just go back and watch TV, alright?

James: on, man.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: It's for real.

James: I mean, you're not kidding around, guys.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like, I'm not kidding around, guys.

James: Let's be boring for a little while. We had enough of that. I'm serious. I'm not fooling around. know

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: but I'm not fooling around, guys.

James: It's true.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Like, I got it, okay?

James: ah but But you know what I'm saying? you know i'm saying, though?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I'll be i'll take it.

James: That was a huge departure after Trump because it was it got to be that It's got to be so horrible. it's like of things people talk about. Don't tune now Don't tune out. don't Don't normalize this. This isn't normal. It wasn't normal.

James: Shit. You know? Tried to bring it back. You know mean? Instead of being a pendulum, I mean, you know I'm saying?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah

James: It was a vast departure.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know what also it was and it was it was really nice to be able to turn my brain off for a while and not like, like oh, how is the sky falling?

James: It was a vast departure from Trump. Very refreshing. Yes. That was a big departure after four years of Trump. Let's not forget what we left and then what we got.

James: You know?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You know, it was like it was like.

James: I mean, if he had another four years, and if he had another four years, maybe took a couple few more house seats, then maybe they could have gone further the other way, you know?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: ah

James: and done You know, i mean, four years, it is hard to undo all the fuckery in one term. You know? It is.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, I mean, I liked Biden's presidency.

James: Yeah, but... play

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I just don't want normal, and I don't think normal sells. like i don't I don't think normal is a great sales pitch.

James: right

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's

James: yeah but There's a reason why and like unstable countries, you know, there's a reason why things should change fairly slowly, not radical changes, administration administration.

James: That leads to instability. That leads to coups. That leads to third world countries where every few years somebody else is taking over and then somebody else take over. They always swing wildly one place to the next.

James: Business cannot survive in environments like that. collapse And economies collapse, it becomes horrible places. You've got to move things along slow, bringing the masses with you.

James: You can't just go from Obamacare to no federal government whatsoever. Trump's going to demolish everything and give everything to Tesla.

James: And then go from that to fuck that. no. We're going to kill all the rich people. We're taking their money. Everybody, we have this. And go the other way, super swinging. Because then that's going to lead to another person coming and saying, no, we have this.

James: And they're going to the other way. And it's not stable. It's not tenable. You cannot run a country like that. You can't.

James: Because big changes cause a lot of ripples, a lot of problems, and it takes time to make things work out. Otherwise, people will always be mad and always want something going the other way. And, you know, shit, man.

James: It's like, it's my money and I want it now. People always want that now. People always want everything right now.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: and i don't I don't agree.

James: Yeah. me

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i don't agree. I feel like it it depends on what the change is.

James: it depends on what the catalyst for the change is.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: If...

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: No, but like if the change...

James: If it's an internal thing or an external thing. World War II, wars. Perfect example. Perfect example. Anytime somebody invades a country, that country...

James: They are on board, man. That doesn't own give a shit if your country was a bunch of Quakers and, you know, Puritan or like, you know, whatever, pacifists, okay? You get invaded, and everybody's on board.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Mm-hmm.

James: We're all on the same team. Everything's for this war. You, like, ah FDR, stuff, you know what I mean? They bombed Pearl Harbor. Shit, man, this isolationist country, very rapidly, everything for the war movement, right? And everybody was on board with it, right?

James: 180, right? External events have to cause it. Just somebody, internal stuff, wanting to change stuff like that and just do things a different way and causing radical change doesn't work.

James: It has to be a unifying event that will bring everybody together. That usually only comes from external factors. 9-11.

James: nine eleven World Trade Center got hit. Bam. George W. Bush was fucking hated by everybody. Michael Moore. And look at his numbers, man. An external event. And all of a sudden, everybody's like, yeah, Patriot Act.

James: Let the government survey list.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah.

James: Let's get those terrorists. Right? Yeah.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: yeah

James: 80-something percent approval rating for George W. Bush. At the time, the stupidest president who ever sat in the Oval Office. Right? Everybody was all happy. Yeah, go America. We renamed French fries the Freedom Fries, man.

James: It was fucking stupid, right? But it was external event that caused everybody to do it. Just internal domestic politics. We need to do this. You're not going to get everybody on board for such radical changes to things.

James: It's not going to happen. Half the country will love it. Half the country will hate it. It'll swing the other way. And then anytime you implement

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like it depends on what the radical change is If the radical change is that everyone has 30% more money.

James: If everybody had 30% more money, then everybody's going to have inflation go up and then prices are going to go up. And that's exactly what happened under Biden.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Here's the thing. That's not, first of all, that's not exactly what happened under Biden.

James: It's not exactly, but everybody had more money.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Second of all, people say that all the time. Okay.

James: It's true. Okay.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: But when they like, when they talked about raising the minimum wage in California, and they're like, Oh, the prices for you raise the minimum wage, the prices for all the fast food is going to go up.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay. When they actually studied the effects of the, of the change in the prices of fast food, the initially they raised the prices of fast food by 4.5%.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: four point five per percent and then they realized that that was more than what they needed to raise the price of food by to account for the additional cost.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: And then they lowered it. ah in the next quarter, they only raised it by 2.7%, which was less than the average of

James: yeah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So like my point, my point is this like, like when you, when you raise the minimum wage, you have, you create a lot more stability in jobs because people aren't having all these terrible jobs that they don't care about that they're not making any money at.

James: I'm reading the same.

James: Yeah.

James: Mm-hmm.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: like when every everyone has enough to like, to be content they're much more likely to work for their contentedness, especially when it is new.

James: Yep.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay? And especially when it's like, well well, you don't know how long this is going to last. Okay? So if you give the people a massive increase in the minimum wage, I promise you, you will accomplish massive change and you will win the next election cycle.

James: I've been with you.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: You'll win the midterms. that should be like That should be the number one priority. Because you know what you know what you'd love to be able to say going into the midterms? You'd love to be able to say, yeah, well, we've raised the minimum wage $35 an hour now.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So economy is doing great.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: People are on a spending frenzy.

James: Yeah. Yeah. um It depends on the changes, though. It depends. And here's the thing, though. Yeah, six months later, they said, yeah, wages went up 18%. Price increases only went up 3% to 7%, you know.

James: But it's not only what the real effect is, it's what people's perception is. Look at it Obamacare, ACA, right?

James: The perception, remember at the time? What was it? Death panels. Death panels. death panels, oh my god, a really good thing happened, and no way happened as a result, Democrats lost their asses, because the perception was bad at the time.

James: You know? So, doesn't matter what the reality is, it's what the perception is.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: That's true. That's good point.

James: Radical change will cause a lot of backlash and negative ads and people lying in some senses and exaggerating what they're really doing and everything else, and it can blow up pretty quickly.

James: Cost of Democrats. You know?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: So what could go right?

James: What could go right? but your okay

James: okay what could go sorry how was demute um What could go right?

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I know.

James: The administration may shock us all and listen to the the judges who are ruling against them over and over again.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: All right. That is yeah has an answer.

James: um

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: um

James: If not, we're fucked. Really fucked.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: My what could go right. um

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: My what could go right is that Pete Hegseth could get fired over the over signal gate.

James: yeah

James: Oh yeah, maybe then they'll promote Tulsi.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Tulsi's already a Tulsi that would be a demotion.

James: I don't think so.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Department of Defense versus Department of National Intelligence.

James: Running Yes. yes

James: Yeah, I think so.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay.

James: DNI is kind of like, you're privy to all the intelligence from the different agencies, right? And you get to report to the president, you know, hey, whatever, here's what you think, right?

James: Whatever. And the Pentagon, I mean, you fucking, you run the military. You run all the defense contracts. You run the largest, the largest organization in the world.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah, but the DNI runs all the spies.

James: They don't run the spies. The DNI, the director of national intelligence, does not run everything.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: She's the director.

James: it's kind of like a It's kind of like that position we had in our company, head of product. That wasn't really head of product. They just kind of you know got all the information from all the product owners and kind of said, hey, head of product. But you don't really run anything.

James: You just kind of process everything from all the different pieces. And you report to the president and everything.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: i Well, I think they would bring in another, you know, they would be like, it would be like Tucker Carlson would become the Steve Whitcoff would be the new, ah you know, what's, ah what's the, what's the, you know, you know who it would be.

James: Russian. Steve Witkoff would probably get it. Probably Steve. Yeah.

James: Vladimir Vooten would become the new one. down

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I know exactly who it would be.

James: Sebastian Orca, whatever his name is.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: What's, ah

James: The other guy.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: no, no, no, no. It's even better. It would be Elon's, Elon's four-year-old son who was wiping his boogers on Trump. in the Oval Office. That would be the new...

James: No, no.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Just be Elon's way of teabagging Trump publicly. Okay. ah This has been a week. Probably going to call this one the one with the tangents. I still like it better than...

James: yeah that

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I still like it better than then last week. ah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Yeah. You know, stay... ah

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: I don't know. Keep your chin up.

James: ah Resist. Bring it back, man. Resist. We need it.

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Okay. Yeah, I like that better. Good night and good luck.

James: good luck

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: Thanks for tuning in. Like, comment, and share, please, fan. Put something in the comments.

James: We

GABRIEL ZIEGLER: We will respond. All right, great.

James: will.