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Navigating the New Era of Online Gaming Communities with James Gallagher
45 Plays4 months ago
Episode Description: In this episode of Player: Engage, Greg interviews James Gallagher, the Head of Community Management at Keywords Studios. James shares his journey through various roles in the gaming industry, the evolution of community management, and strategies for building and maintaining strong player communities. They discuss the importance of community managers, the distinction between audiences and communities, and the role of different social media platforms in community building.
Listen Here: James Gallagher - Keywords Studios
Timestamps & Key Takeaways:
- 00:01.42 - 01:34.09: Introduction and Career Journey
James introduces himself and his extensive background in community management, including roles at Techland, eBay, Rockstar, and Sony. - 02:25.18 - 04:31.60: Evolution of Community Management
James discusses the shift from early community management on forums to the rise of social media platforms like Facebook and Discord, and the importance of adapting to new tools and trends. - 11:20.93 - 13:33.59: Building and Engaging Communities
Insights into the differences between building audiences on social media and fostering interactive communities on platforms like Discord and Reddit. - 19:09.26 - 21:45.49: Strategic Community Building
Strategies for indie game developers to start building their communities, focusing on underserved niches and engaging players from the development phase. - 38:40.44 - 41:02.42: Managing a Global Team
James talks about managing a team of over 100 community managers across 31 countries, emphasizing the importance of structure, internal community, and promoting from within.
Key Concepts:
- Evolution of Community Management: Transition from traditional forums to modern social media platforms and the need to adapt to new trends.
- Audience vs. Community: The distinction between building audiences and fostering interactive, engaging communities.
- Community Building Strategies: Practical advice for indie developers on identifying and engaging niche audiences.
- Managing Global Teams: Effective management of a large, geographically diverse team and the importance of internal community building.
- Adaptability and Curiosity: The importance of staying curious and adaptable in the ever-evolving field of community management.
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:08
gregp
Good morning, everybody, and welcome to the Player Engage Podcast. Greg here.
Guest Introduction: James Gallagher at Keyword Studios
00:00:13
gregp
Today we are joined by James Gallagher. He's the head of Community Management and Keyword Studios. This is going to be a really fun conversation. We're going to get to learn how you build a community, the skills around it, what you want to look for. James has a great career from everything from keywords today from Techland, eBay, Rockstar,
James Gallagher's Career Journey
00:00:29
gregp
Sony. So tons of big name companies you have known and you can understand how you build these communities. So James, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm excited to pick your brain. Anything you want to share that I didn't introduce about yourself.
00:00:41
James
ah Yeah, thanks, Greg. No, it's a very yeah ah comprehensive introduction. Thank
Managing a Global Community Team
00:00:46
James
you. I'm James. I'm head of community at Keywords. We ah we have an incredible team of 145 community managers all around the world, 31 different countries. um And I mean, that the the cliche that we always share is that community managers historically wear a lot of hats.
00:00:59
gregp
Thank
00:01:04
James
There's kind of a lot a number of um Aspects to the role, you know, i mean people's definition of a community manager can vary from someone that creates social media content to talking to players on communities like Discord servers and subreddits. ah Sentiment analysis is a big part of what we do. um dealing with crisis situations, you know that the
00:01:25
gregp
you
Evolution of Community Management
00:01:28
James
list can go on.
00:01:28
James
So ah we have an amazing crew all around the world that can kind of provide all of those ah services to our clients. So you know happy to answer any questions that that you have on what we get up to.
00:01:41
gregp
I love that you just started listening at the roles because I feel like that alone could probably be an hour because, I mean, you've been doing community management. I mean, just looking at your LinkedIn for since the early 2000s, right? And that's, I think back then, community management, while it was a thing, was more of like a foreign language to a lot of us, right?
00:01:50
James
Hmm.
00:01:57
gregp
The the communities were probably a little smaller, right? They were in different places, right? Maybe they were on Facebook more often. There still are, right? ah And Reddit and social. And we've we've grown since then and communities have become stronger. and most of the big games that you see, not even big games, I mean, indies as well, right, that are popping right now are because they build strong communities. ah So I have a lot of questions, I'm just going to throw a dart to see where I want to start. um The first one would be is, when you got started with community management, you talk about a little bit what the landscape was and how you have seen it grow yourself over the past couple years.
Early Career and Transition to Community Management
00:02:32
James
ah Yeah, I mean, I started ah my first job in gaming, let's say, was as a copywriter for that was a PlayStation. So that was um I was a journalist before then. And then I came over to be a copywriter. So I was writing for PlayStation dot.com. That was the official, the official kind of company website. And it was the the kind of thing you see on a company website descriptions of the game, almost like the back of the box kind of text as as back when we had boxes and they had text on the back of them.
00:02:56
gregp
Yeah.
00:02:59
James
um and yeah so it was a really it was it was writing there wasn't really any interactivity with it and um around about that time it was like that's when companies started sort of using social media and really the kind of the nascent days of that I think in ah PlayStation in particular, it was something that had been happening in the US, and they were looking to to kind of launch that for Europe. So so I took took that over. It was almost um it was like a new platform, really. I think online communities have existed for for an awfully long time, you and which is as long as the internet has been around. And I think even before that, companies like PlayStation, they had official forums and things like that. So what we think of this community now
00:03:47
James
What happened around about that time is social media really came in and really started to drive the conversation around what we think of as online communities and how brands interact with their fans. I think actually, you know, side point, we've we've we've come full circle in many ways in that we start to think now about community management as people building spaces for people to interact with each other, a bit like we did before social with with things like forms. But um yeah, so so mike that that was really the jumping off point
Impact of Social Media on Community Building
00:04:16
James
for me. I think the thing about it was that I was just, I was used to to writing writing for websites and and and then suddenly there was a kind of a,
00:04:24
James
There was a reply section, and that's that became quite intoxicating, if I'm quite honest. You're like, wow, I can put this i can put this stuff out. And immediately you're seeing this this response, good good or bad, as is always the case. I think that's that's pretty compelling.
00:04:36
gregp
Thank
00:04:38
James
Back in the day, you're right. It was it was on Facebook, primarily initially. And and this is this is Facebook before advertising. So the kind of organic reach that you would get from pretty much anything you put out was just vast. It was massive. So you'd you know it was kind of you'd you'd put out any kind of short message and you'd just get comment after comment.
00:04:55
gregp
you.
00:04:58
James
It was quite fun. And um yeah, that that that like I said, that that was the jumping off point um and then and then went on to work for,
00:05:06
gregp
Thank
00:05:09
James
Obviously with a company like like like Sony, you're working with lots of different game publishers, lots of different games all the time, constantly, but lots of titles, and then went on to work more with specific game developers, like Rockstar and TechLam was focused more on a specific title, a couple of games. and then And then, for me personally, it was about really going deep in ah into a particular fandom. I think probably something like Grand Theft Auto was like the kind of the ultimate of that really.
00:05:35
gregp
you.
00:05:37
James
of getting to go, especially when we launched ah when we launched five. ah I mean, a very, very large fan base, really sort of getting under the hood of that. And, um you know, we, getting into those sort of you know regular interactions. you know also you know A lot of the work we used to do, which didn't get talked about so much, is was via email. Actually, we used to get a lot of fans email us, and and we were very kind of dedicated to directly responding to fans' emails and things like that. A lot of one-to-one kind of fandom building and interaction, which i was super interesting.
00:06:14
James
and then yeah i mean i could I could keep
Modern Tools for Community Engagement
00:06:16
James
going on. or I feel free to sort of guide me into what you want to know.
00:06:18
gregp
Well, it's yeah no i'm cut you know it's funny because you know you talk about Sony, right?
00:06:19
James
but
00:06:23
gregp
which beginning of the We'll call it the beginning of the internet. It's not, right? But you're describing just, hey, here here's what here's what Twisted Metal is, whatever, right?
00:06:29
James
No.
00:06:31
gregp
And then all of a sudden, fans start reaching back out. You have a reply section. You have Facebook. You're working with Rockstar during the launch of GTA 5, which is nuts because here we are. 14 years or 12 years later, right talking about GTA six, but but at certain point, they're on Facebook where they're becoming more of conversational, right now we're in the world where we're going to discord where it's pure conversation. And when we talk about this, it reminds me to like the early days of AOL when you had chat rooms, right? It seemed like for a while the chat room disappeared. And now it's kind of reemerging a chat room, but in the form of discord where
00:07:04
gregp
you have a lot of back and forth conversation right back in the day. And I'll make an assumption here and feel free to smack me down like I'm wrong, right? Like, when you're managing Facebook, you're looking at the post real time, you're coming in, you can delete them, you can do that. But with Discord, conversations are moving fast, right? So like, how do you stay on top of a Discord conversation, make sure it stays on core? So or, I mean, this is probably an and impossible to answer question, right? Like, how do how do you even begin monitoring One of these channels to understand the types of conversations that are going on since they're happening so quickly and so spread apart
Creating and Sustaining Communities
00:07:37
James
Yeah, that's, um I mean, you're right. Things have, you know, from early days of chat rooms and things and that that that sort of feels like it's come back around. It it was always there. um I think particularly with companies getting more involved with that again, that's something that's that's picked up over the last, say, for four or five years, maybe six years with things like Discord and Reddit. I think, you know, The whole industry of what we min community management really did become quite fixated on social for about a decade. And I think that now it's more universally understood that they serve different purposes. I think when we think about social media as something, phenomenal tools for creating an audience.
00:08:20
James
And then when we start to think about something like Discord or subreddit, you know, great for building a community and the the distinction between an audience and a community is with a community, you really, what you're looking to do is create a space for people to talk to each other. um And I think, you know, e in a way, if you've done your job right, yes, you want to kind of continue to provide information and talking points and activities and keep that space fresh and interesting.
00:08:46
gregp
Thanks.
00:08:47
James
um but ultimately your success is are people just kind of chatting with each other excuse me and having a good time versus obviously with social it's that thing of you you do need to constantly be putting out content yeah I mean sure there's a comment section but if you stop posting that comment section very very quickly with us and it's like ah um so that's that's why we think of audiences versus communities. I mean, onto the monitoring part. I mean, look, we we have community managers and and they live in those channels day in, day out.
00:09:21
James
I think um we we use tools to monitor things, we which I'll come onto in a second. We use technology to monitor these um communities at scale. I mean, actually, though, you'll still find that your community manager's sense of of what's going on will
00:09:30
gregp
Silence.
00:09:36
James
or more often than not be on the money of just of just monitoring conversations, being involved, seeing what the kind of temperature is.
00:09:40
gregp
Silence.
00:09:44
James
um But yeah, clearly there's a need for something more ah more at scale and more scientific. So I suppose two parts of your question. One is is the sentiment and understanding of what's being talked about. this There's a number of tools out there that the the that we use and that people would be aware of that that can help sort of ingest all of those, not just on Discord, but across the web and and categorize and tag. I think those tools have come on leaps and bounds in the last two, three years. I mean, to the point where I think they were a little bit, ah people in the industry were sort of somewhat dubious about them, ah you know especially the one that used to hear a lot was that in in gaming, they struggle with the way that people talk about video games. People use language that would, in any other context, be ostensibly considered
00:10:34
James
say negative or, you know, um
00:10:38
gregp
Sure, in gaming you can go say I'm gonna shoot you in the head and that's okay in gaming.
00:10:41
James
that's, you know, there's there's things like that. I mean, when I was at Techland, I worked on a ah game called Dying Light, Bad Blood, and it was kind of all of the, any of those word kind of, you know, association sentiment tools would just be alarm bells with everything because these were sort of the game was called sort of bad, bad words and inverted commas. um But no, those those those tools have really, really come on leaps and bounds. I think they're super useful now. And and I think moderation will be the other part that you're alluding to, which that's obviously where it is super critical to really have a close eye on things. um And similarly, that's where I think the the tools available to us now have really improved and and made that job a lot easier to do at scale.
00:11:27
gregp
So, sorry, I had to use, you brought something up that I wanted to dig into, right?
Community Building for Indie Developers
00:11:31
gregp
You were talked about audience and community building, which is important. And I think most people we talk to tend to think this is a gaming specific thing, right? And we had people that listened that aren't in gaming and surprisingly a good amount that our audience aren't in gaming, but they're in customer success. And I try to tell them that community building, no matter what vertical you're in is something that should be focused on because a strong community will help build a brand. But are you mostly only doing gaming? Like what are the types of communities you think are out there that that need this type of monitoring.
00:11:59
gregp
Just like what vertical should people people people be focusing on if it's stuck to a vertical?
00:12:00
James
That's the problem.
00:12:05
James
um so So, I mean, first of all, if you I mean, we're in the business, I mean, you know, we we could go on and talk about things like local communities and this this this could so to try and keep us focused. I mean, I think we're we're obviously talking more about um in the realm of brands and and and and businesses. and And yeah, I mean, we could look at things like sport. I mean, if you if you look at sport, If you look at fandom first and foremost as being almost like the the the umbrella term, you know fandom in sport is what drives it, right? it's kind of it's ah
00:12:43
James
it's it's crazy, you know, the level of fandom in sport. And then so within that fandom, there will be tons of there will be lots of communities right down from um kind of local supporters group of a certain team, people are in a similar physical location that will kind of get together and like travel to matches together, and they'll kind of help each other out. And that collaboration between them, they're kind of collaborating to And they're kind of feeding off each other as well, like sharing that kind of fandom to, you know, there will be certain communities, online communities around about that team. You know, most sports teams have a subreddit, right? And increasingly have a Discord server. And that's kind of where people will just get together. You know, generally, sports is an interesting one, because if there's a match going on, sports is all obviously around
00:13:34
James
events happening live. And when there's a match going on, there will be like, you know, there'll be people that will be watching the game on TV, but there will be a kind of thread where they're posting questions and like but making little comments and things that's, um you know, they're kind of working together to kind of improve their experience of, you know, there will be communities around an individual individual player, and there will be communities around things like the uniforms, as you probably call them, or the kits, as we call them here. So you'll get all of these. So I think sports is huge for this because, and I think music is also something that's, I mean, really, wherever there's fandom, then there will be communities kind of, or some of the pieces kind of in Lego blocks kind of forming that fandom.
00:14:18
gregp
Yeah.
00:14:22
gregp
ah um Well, the truth is the community is kind of your your hype man or or woman these days, right? You build a community. I mean, look at look at Taylor Swift. She's got her Swifties that are are relentless, probably better marketers than than she is, right? ah And I think it comes down to building that community because but If you build fans and you communicate with your fans and you engage with your fans, they will be your fans for life. And and and that's being proven by Taylor Swift as well as a lot of other companies out there that have these really strong communities. um I think one of the questions I always come to mind is like,
Strategizing Effective Channels for Engagement
00:14:56
gregp
And this would be a question for you, James, is if you were going to start an indie gaming company right now, how do you start building your community? Like what what would be your approach to it? And obviously everything's a little different, but kind of how do you go about that from what you've seen?
00:15:11
James
I think if i if i was if I was in that position, um and I think, you know, this is this is not my idea, whether this is kind of well-trodden ground at this point, I think, but I think a good place is is thinking about thinking about an underserved niche or
00:15:26
gregp
Bye.
00:15:32
James
community or subsection of an existing community um that you can start a conversation with, you know, it doesn't have to be huge to begin with. I think one of the, you know, often mentioned examples being, you know, Stardew Valley of the, you know, in in that genre, you know, it's kind of a genre that had been around for a while, but they hadn't really been in things like, you know, Harvest Moon. There really hadn't been anything kind of really blowing people's socks off in in that space for a while. So I think, you know, from an early stage when that game um went from and an idea and was being developed on really brought, you know, brought those people on board um and brought, you know, kind of brought them into the development. And that's something that I talk to companies about now, you know, if they're if they're working on particularly kind of indie games, it's like, okay, who
00:16:22
James
Who is this serving? Where are, where do they currently show up online? um you know it is You know, is there any, it doesn't necessarily even have to be the genre.
00:16:28
gregp
you
00:16:33
James
I mean, that's quite a direct example. It's like a, it's a game in a genre, but it can be kind of, maybe it's a character from a certain part of the world or it's, it can be something quite quite niche, like a location thing. You know, like I was kind of, I was talking to somebody recently about, um working on, it I don't think I'm giving too much away by saying they're working on a game that's set in Paris. And I was like, oh, it's kind of, it's cool. I haven't seen a game in Paris for quite a while. It has been, I was thinking about a game called the Saboteur, which is a bit of a deep cut from EA a few years ago. But yeah, I was kind of like, um so then that started me thinking about like, oh, you know, and how you could start to sort of gather people around the idea of like, okay, it's been a while since it's been a
00:17:18
James
ah per a Paris set game. But yeah, I mean, like it's finding those little hooks, really. And it's like, okay, how, how can we sort of, are there any of those hooks of people who are already having a conversation about those? Or, you know, ideally about the lack of those. And you can start to, you know, because then then it's something for people to start talking about in an organic way, you're not kind of, you know, just kind of crowbarring something in there. joining existing conversations and hopefully seeing if they can snowball and into into something into something bigger.
00:17:50
gregp
Are those typical strategies you work with when you speak to a a client or a prospect? Do you kind of sit down with them here at their game? And when you first start talking about that, are there networks you immediately think of? Is it everyone goes Discord, everyone goes Reddit, or is there a strategy behind the channels you want to approach first?
00:18:07
James
I mean, I don't want to kind of over, I mean, at the end of the day, I think a lot of the, a lot of the projects that we work on professionally, you know, in our team are, are kind of large, already quite well established communities um where there isn't, you're not really doing that kind of drawing board kind of thinking. um So I wouldn't say that it's something that we regularly sit down and strategize. and yeah I'm also, i'm I'm also not a strategist. I think if, if we, we had a community strategist here in in this podcast, that put it be from one of our studios, then there'd be a slightly different response to that.
00:18:42
James
But no, I'd say oftentimes this is just more thinking and you know out loud ideation, the conversations that I have with her, rather than something that we're sitting down and really building out.
00:18:54
gregp
Thank
00:18:54
James
Because I think as well, it's those It's something that's really, really effective kind of at the grassroots level that I think that independent publishers and developers are doing themselves. There's a lot to be said for that actually. Again, it's being a kind of an organic ah part of a comic, you know, joining a conversation in a very organic way.
00:19:14
gregp
you.
00:19:14
James
I think, you know, it's kind of, we are um the end of the day, we are an agency and there's always a slight kind of like, uh, Uh, is, is it as authentic as like I said, somebody that's really building a game on their own and, and, and, you know, people will, if there's something kind of manufactured about this approach, so it's something that people would sniff out.
00:19:35
gregp
So to play kind of devil's advocate there, right sometimes a studio is so ingrained in your game right that they don't actually know the community aspect of it. right There are certain times where maybe they're like, oh, we want to start this Twitter account. And you're like, I don't think Twitter is the right channel for you. Is there a time where you kind of step in and say, this this isn't the strategy you want to go with. Maybe you want to consider this because of your demographic.
00:19:59
James
Yeah, I mean, that that obviously happens all the time. And and that is, and and oftentimes as well, it's that I think that when people um
00:20:09
James
It's difficult to try and be everywhere. I think oftentimes you see people um and they think well we've got to be everywhere. That's what you do. And and you've got to be on Instagram and TikTok and Twitter and and Discord and Reddit. And we've got to have this whole suite of channels. And I think, you know, to to use a kind of a civilization analogy, I've always, you know, I've always personally been more in favor of sort of building tall as opposed to building wide. um Particularly if you're on, we're talking about in indie companies where maybe resources are stretched and it's like, well, you know really, really putting all of your your eggs into having a really thriving Discord server and you know and and a social channel to drive people to it. You might get more bang for your butt than limiting yourself to doing a bit everywhere. So yeah, that that's a conversation that
00:21:04
James
ah that we have and and that comes up in those more strategic conversations. and and you know what's What's the right channel for a certain kind of game? I mean, we talk to some some ah publishers and developers where the kind of game that they're developing, we question whether Discord is the right It's sort of become quite ubiquitous now, but not always. you know We talked recently about a very, very casual game that had you know quite a specific audience demographic-wise. um quite a kind of um The general player base was quite an older skew female player and and and I thought,
00:21:42
James
um You know, these days it's almost flipped. It was flipped the sort of convention these days. I think most times, most conversations I have, it's like, yes, we must have a discord and questioning whether we need to have a Facebook page now.
00:21:49
gregp
on.
00:21:53
James
and Um, because that was almost the, that was almost the flip of that. It's like, well, look, we probably should double down on, on Facebook. Um, question mark of my discord. So yeah, that comes into play for sure.
Entertainment-Focused Social Content
00:22:06
gregp
It's interesting because even for the podcast, right? I'll put the podcast out on every channel just because you need to in the beginning, but I could just tell you like Facebook is not the right place for it because hey I don't want to be showing off to my friends, right? Like they're not necessarily the right people to be listening, but you kind of learn like, all right, well, If I'm building a specific type of product and I want to show it off, that's probably more of an Instagram type of thing because it's imagery. So it's interesting to see how people start to adopt and learn about the channels that are right for them. From your perspective, I mean i didn't know what we just talked about, but what is the channel that no one should be skipping over today? Is it Discord or is there something new that should be on the horizon? Is it TikTok? right like Is there a channel that almost is ubiquitous for anyone?
00:22:50
James
I mean, there's there's a caveat to every response, isn't there? That's the thing. like it's It's difficult so in in universal terms. I think, look, if as I said, if um in in gaming, it's it's it's very much a 9 out of 10 now where where there is a discord. And the thing that we find extremely effective at the moment about discord particularly is that When you're announcing a game or you're putting out a trailer or you know any kind of key beat in your campaign where there's a call to action, you know ultimately you put out a piece of content, what do you want people to do next? And we find that driving people to a Discord server is an extremely effective call to action, so um which is great because you know you put out a piece of content,
00:23:34
James
And then you know you're driving people to a space where then you can continue to communicate with them. They can talk with each other. So a lot of value in that. And that like I said, that's a call to action that really seems to be working at the moment. I think you know it's it's easy to say TikTok or as well as TikTok to talk about short form video as a kind you know a kind of social content that's that's working very well. But the caveat there is that you know you have to be able to deliver in that format, you know, um strategically and creatively. it's ah ah it's It's a format that has specific requirements, you know, not only is it, ah sure, tall video, but the convention there is, you know, you have people in front of camera and you you know, this humor, I mean, this is the thing that's really changed on social over the years is that socialism social in the form of entertainment now, that's really how you,
00:24:31
James
That's how you capture people on social, as you entertain them. And humans are one of the sort of most common ways of doing that. So I think in gaming in particular, we used to think of social as being information. I'm putting out information. And I still see that quite a lot. as the just you know The default strategy is you know we're putting out information on patch notes and we're and and we're announcing things. But now it's you're a form of entertainment. you've got a um you know We work with a lot with our colleagues in TMM, which is part of Studio, which they're very much rooted in the entertainment industry. And what they talk about all the time is that the purpose of social
00:25:11
James
you know, is to entertain people when they're not watching the show or the movie. It's like when they're outside of that experience of of watching the movie or things, but you know, you keep them entertained in a similar way. And um um I often do this, I go off on time, I've completely forgotten the original question.
00:25:30
gregp
No, but you're yeah you're nailing things that are interesting to me, because you know what?
00:25:30
James
But no, I think we we were talking about
00:25:35
gregp
I mean, we're in a new era. I
Insights on Engaging Gaming Communities
00:25:38
gregp
call it a new era. It's not, but like the rise of Twitch allowed me to start watching games instead of playing games. And now content creators are building stuff from within games, right? ah Half the people probably don't play some of these things out there. I love watching clips of Mortal Kombat, whatever the latest Mortal Kombat is. I don't necessarily love playing it, but I'll sit there and just watch people doing it. It fascinates me. i think It's ah interesting. Again, that's your community working with you, right? Your community's taking your content and repurposing it for people that may not normally play the game. And you're sitting here, you guys have to monitor this stuff, making sure it says stays appropriate, right? In certain channels, you can do that better than others. And it's just fascinating on on how this is growing and how this content is being pushed to people because this is a new way of advertising, right? Some companies won't even spend any money on advertising because they'll have some influencers playing the game and that itself makes it kind of explode.
00:26:29
James
Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's it's lot of it's new and a lot of it just feels new and it's old but you know I always I often come back to fandom um as the kind of catch-all for for what what we're doing here and and it also helps me make sense of because you know I think we talked about earlier about fandom in relation to um sports and you know communities and things and really that's like It really it feels like there's this spread of so much going on and there's this vast spread you know take even just an individual game take more for combat and things and then you think about all of the. There's the official social channels and the official communities, but then all of the sub communities around certain aspects of the game or characters or you know previous you know arcade versions from the 90s and then you've got.
00:27:18
James
movies, and then you've got, ah you know, as you mentioned, streamers and content creators and cosplayers and fan art, and all of these things, like, it feels like, wow, it's sort of like an overwhelm of it all. But that really is just, that's the ecosystem of a fandom. You know, ifs there's loads of things going on, but they're all intertwined, and they're all part of that same ecosystem, and they all, um and I think that, so so we,
00:27:37
gregp
Silence. Silence.
00:27:44
James
you know We think about the the the blocks that make that up and and the little parts of the ecosystem, some parts of them we can control, some parts of them not so much, but we you know we keep an eye on them and um and they also have different purposes and it's all Ultimately, you know it's all people providing value to each other as well. That's that's what it's what's really cool about it. you know so As you mentioned, you know sometimes you know some of those content creators that you watch or streamers that you watch, some of them will provide you pure entertainment. Some of them will provide you, maybe you want to get better at the game yourself. So you kind of want to learn, particularly with fighting games, I think, where there's that really, really deep, you know easy to play, but impossible to master kind of um learning curve with them.
00:28:30
James
And maybe some of them, you want to get opinions because, you know, you're thinking about whether you want to get a certain DLC or something. This is kind of like, but ultimately the the one thing they have in common is that they're creating value for their audience or for the other members of that community.
00:28:49
gregp
I want the record to show that I've been watching a lot of X-defying clips on how to get better, and I am still terrible at the game, so so take all those clips with a grain of salt, but they are great. ah ram here
00:28:58
James
but that's a really good i mean that's a really good piece of strategic insight that that that's very common. like i mean One of the things that we um comes up a lot is look if a game has a as a game as as as a competitive element to it, then there will pretty much always be a kind of a desire, some motivation for members of that fandom to to learn and get better. So these these are the these are the strategic tidbits that you have, right? You could be like, well, look there's a very strong motivation there. so So in any aspect of how we work with that fandom, whether it's through influencer campaigns or building Discord servers or creating a social calendar, like that's a great clue, right? That's a great clue to how to create value for people.
00:29:43
James
or for to how to enable people to create value for each other. Because that's kind of, well, look, you know this this is this is clearly of value. like Really ah good educational information on how to get better at this game is is going to be of value. So you can build around that.
00:30:00
gregp
I love that you said it could be either or, because I think that's very fair, right? It could be value, it could be entertainment, it could be both. And and I think both are just as powerful to a community, because different people in the community have different needs. Some are going to be those diehards that want to become first, first, first, and others just want to be there for the entertainment and watch the funny kills or something that's happening. So I love how you you differentiated this, because I think both are important in fandom. um And usually about halfway through, I like to do a fireball around and just kind of throw some random questions at you. So, uh, I think we're a little past halfway, but you're good to go.
00:30:32
James
Sure. It depends on the fireball, but okay.
00:30:34
gregp
What'd you have for breakfast?
00:30:37
James
Uh, cornflakes.
00:30:38
gregp
All right. So you are at a bar. You can order any drink. What are you going to order?
00:30:44
James
Uh, coffee. I don't drink alcohol, but I'd go for a coffee. I'll take a coffee at any, any point.
00:30:51
gregp
Dream vacation.
00:30:55
James
Watching cricket in Sri Lanka.
00:30:57
gregp
Ooh, that's a that's the first. I'll tell you that one. What's the last game you played?
00:31:05
James
Elden Ring last night.
00:31:07
gregp
And last question is, what show are you binge watching or have you just finished binge watching?
00:31:13
James
a I don't watch a lot of TV. i there's It's niche, it's obscure. There's a series of documentaries by a documentarian called a ah Adam Curtis who in the UK, it was called The Century of the Self. you go Interesting, actually, it was about the birth of ah PR as a concept, public relations.
00:31:37
gregp
Interesting. Good. All right. We'll check that out. You're off the hussy. That was easy, right?
00:31:43
James
It was quite easy.
00:31:43
gregp
So I
00:31:43
James
yeah i Like I said, that the the TV one always gets me because I'm... and david much
00:31:48
gregp
usually have a book one, and that's the one that gets someone. Everyone's usually good on TV. So so that's good that, ah hey, you don't have to watch TV. You're probably in front of a screen most of the day anyway. um
Managing a Diverse Community Team
00:31:58
gregp
I want to talk about your actual roles, head of community management, the keywords, right? And something, I'm just looking at your LinkedIn, right? You're managing, or your team's over 100. And that's a lot of people, right? And it's all different roles. So from ah your perspective of your role, how how do you manage that many people? How many times do you work with direct reportees and kind of how do you scale?
00:32:20
James
Yeah, it's it's changed a lot over the years. I mean, it was developed over the years because, um I mean, i I hadn't, I'd never managed anybody before this job, which was, ah you know, five years ago, because, you know, as a community manager, generally, we work with the the fans. and But so so it was pretty much a ah dramatic change going from managing nobody ever to, you know, well, dozens of people to begin with. And then, and then it, and then it went up over a hundred and, uh, yeah, it's developed.
00:32:52
James
I mean, it's in, it's in a, it's in a great place now. I think, you know, there is a great structure and and we have really good people.
00:32:56
gregp
you
00:32:58
James
And, and I think generally that gets you, I know it's probably a bit of a cliche or a platitude, but having really, really good people and all being in, you know, wanting the same things and putting the same direction. ah has made it ah kind of infinitely easier. And I think that we've um we've we've always had very good development from within, which I think has has helped us because we've grown so quickly, you know, from, but you know, pretty much, you know, um just me to like hundred So so so that that has obviously, ah we've needed to create a structure in order for that to happen. So now we do have a kind of a structure of community managers and then leads and then project managers and then them them myself. and um
00:33:45
James
And also it's the opportunity for those people because obviously when you have people to fill those more advanced roles, then you have the opportunity for the people that have been community managers to step up and do nothing. More than 50% of what we would consider a kind of a people management role. within our organization is is is filled with people that have been promoted to that role from within, which is good for everybody, because I think, you know, everybody wants to to to advance. For us, there's that kind of familiarity of like, a okay, you've worked with us, you kind of know how we work, you know what we aspire to, what we want to do, you can now they bring that through to to to more people that we hire and get that kind of continuity.
00:34:28
James
Um, but no, I mean, that's, it's, it's a, you know, this, the simple answer is having, having a structure that makes sense. we've always had quite a narrow structure, I think, as we've organized our team, we haven't, we've kept it quite, easily as I mentioned before, even though that there's lots involved in being a community manager, um you know, they there could have been a temptation, I suppose, to have been like, let's have a social team over here, let's have a Discord team over there, and then let's hear about data scientists, and let's
00:34:59
James
have our team here and and and and ah and have that kind of spread of specialisms and departments and things. We generally kept it quite um quite narrow. um And that's been great for consistency. I think hopefully most people in the team have a really good sense of the direction that we're pulling in and and what we value. um we have ah Even though we're in 31 different countries, I think we have a great sense of an internal community as well, which um And that that that's one of those kind of quirks in that you you'd think that would be easy for us right to build a sense of community within our own team, given that it's it's what we do. But I think we there's there's a sort of a syndrome of like, I don't know if you have any friends that work in construction. um I do have a few that were kind of builders and plumbers. And their own houses are
00:35:50
James
just eternally unfinished projects and and I think that for a while like we were it it took us two or three years to really be like okay this is our community this is kind of how that operates but now the momentum's really there and um again like people are really geographically um diverse in our team but then they come together quite often for game nights and book clubs and and chats and you know, they play games together and they're all united by that kind of online game culture um anyway, which is such a three fair.
00:36:27
James
So yeah, that's, does that cover it? it's a
00:36:32
gregp
Yeah, I mean, it's just a lot of people to manage. I guess going from the day to day of community management to managing what was the biggest, for lack of a better word, shell shock to you like, Oh, I am a manager now and not a community manager.
00:36:45
James
Um, sort of not, um, learning, learning to be less involved, I think, in some of the day-to-day. It's is an obvious one. Um, I think that I often joke half.
00:36:59
gregp
Is that something that came naturally to you? is Some people have it hard to rip away the data today.
00:37:02
James
No, no, not at all. I mean, I, I was, you know, the the team had already got, got up close to a hundred and I think I was still, you know, being quite involved in the day-to-day of how helping out with ideation for social content and talking. It it was good. I mean, I enjoy it. so But you've got to also like, um you got to step back and let people run that as well. it sort of I think I clearly remember like one of the first like longer holidays or vacations I went on in in this role. I remember that being a really sort of positive threshold.
00:37:42
James
because I came back and realized that that the team had just kept everything running so beautifully and solved any problems. And it just made me realize, yeah, I you know i was too interfering and in in or you know just doubling up really. like you're kind of You're there and you know you need to leave people to do it. um
00:38:04
gregp
You're afraid you leave you come back your house is gonna be burnt down, but there it is thriving, right? It's like a breath of fresh air.
00:38:08
James
No, exactly. No, it was quite, quite the opposite.
00:38:09
gregp
You're like, oh
00:38:10
James
It was tidier than it had ever been. Um, no, so yeah, that's, it's all, but that's, we're all, we we're all learning, aren't we? And it's, uh, that's one of the, you know, the great things that, well, from my experience, the great thing about, about key words is we've been able to build this, uh, this team so quickly and, um, you know, have that kind of, you know, that kind of entrepreneurial mindset in the team.
Navigating Emerging Social Platforms
00:38:36
James
where people feel like you know they they can build new capabilities and and try things out and and that they'll be backed. So yeah.
00:38:44
gregp
So from from the insider's perspective, are there any social channels that we should be keeping our eye on that are starting to kind of rise up in popularity or is it kind of the the known ah entities right now? your Again, your Discord's, your Reddit's, your Twitch.
00:38:56
James
I, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm always like a little bit, I think after this many years, a little bit wary of the, the crystal ball questions, if you like, of trying to, I mean, I'm also notoriously bad at them as well. I mean, I'm, I'm going to dress up and say like, I was, when I first kind of saw Twitch, I was like, that's not gonna, that's not going to catch on. Like, uh, what, you know, and I, and and I, was you know, and I think it's, um, um, I think that the i talk I talk to people, especially people um about community management. and I do some talks, some charities in the UK, people looking to get into the games industry. I talk about this in terms of people talk about like what are the sort of skills that
00:39:44
James
I guess that help you in this kind of a role. And um I do heart back to the and most of the channels that we work on that didn't exist when I am they started my career doing this kind of thing. So, you know, I'm not going to pretend that I can predict what the next TikTok is going to be. But you know I think I will really evangelize that curiosity and adaptability so that when it does come along that you know you're excited about it and you get past 40 like I do and you try and switch off that natural kind of being slightly jaded about ah new things and and then and that you embrace them and try to understand what it is that people find appealing about them.
00:40:25
James
Well, that would be, I don't know. and that there's nothing There's nothing that front of mind that's super, like, emerging. I think there are a few channels that, you know, with with some of the ah the transition from Twitter to X. And there are obviously a few channels that kind of popped up then that have been around for a while, like Mastodon. And, you know, they kind of struggled for struggle traction. So, no, I mean, I don't think, I wouldn't call out anything in particular. And I think that the some of the, ah you know we have to remember as well is that because we work in gaming, oftentimes we are a little bit ahead of the curve of some um ah you know ah but other industries, if you like, and I guess more more mainstream appeal. So really, if you look at the what we're doing on Discord now, and I think that there is that's relatively nascent in other
00:41:20
James
um industries, you know, we talked about with sports. um I mean, I think, you know, that, that's something that would be far more, you know, you ask the average, I don't know what sports you like, Greg, or this basketball or kind of, but yeah so then what's your, what's your team?
00:41:33
gregp
It's football, not any sport.
00:41:38
gregp
i Basketball, I don't really have a team. It's not my favorite. Football, my team is the New York Jets. I'm actually coming to London to see the Jets play this year. so
00:41:45
James
Okay, so do they have a Discord?
00:41:46
gregp
and don't want
00:41:48
James
New York Jets like an official one or is there any?
00:41:49
gregp
I don't know if they do. You know what, I've never, I do a lot of Discord. Discord's a channel, kind of what you were talking about, kind of the jaded time, same way you kind of looked at Twitch probably. I originally looked at Discord that way, and now, I mean, I'm big into making coffee, so I'm part of this like espresso group in there, and part of a Christmas-like, I go crazy with Christmas lights, so I'm just like, wow, there really is a Discord for everything, and it's set up in such a great way, where it's easy for anyone to consume the information in there, like, i've learned to truly love it like Just everything is there.
00:42:20
gregp
And I know that lately, the past few weeks, I pick your brain on the best way to scaling a Discord, because I truly think every company, for the most part, can benefit by having a community, even if it's only a few people where you can like pick your customers' brains. like What do you like about this? What do you don't like about that? right like I don't know. I was like, why are they making another Slack clone? We don't need another Slack clone. And it blew me away by the capabilities of it. So ah I just went off on a tangent there.
00:42:46
James
Thank you.
00:42:46
gregp
Sorry.
00:42:48
James
Yeah, we're talking about the yeah New York Jets. And I mean, I don't know if they have one or not. But I think, you know, there's there's a there's a few I can see a future where that is becomes much more of a kind of, I mean, you know, just does the do New York Jets have have an Instagram?
00:42:56
gregp
Yeah.
00:43:02
James
Like, I'm not even gonna ask that question.
00:43:03
gregp
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they have all this.
00:43:04
James
Like, um obviously, yes.
00:43:05
gregp
I'm gonna look it up in New York.
00:43:06
James
Obviously, yes. Like, it would be it would be crazy if they didn't. Whereas, you know, do they have a disco? That would be a question mark. I think there's a future where that's like another obviously, yes. um so So I guess that that that means it's still relatively nascent. um this There's some, you know, what the would the one the one channel, I mean, this isn't like new or trendy or glamorous that I've always thought was a bit, particularly for for brands, um maybe be underutilized is like SMS, WhatsApp.
00:43:37
gregp
Hmm.
00:43:37
James
I think used judiciously, obviously. I think there's there's obviously like alarm bells that do, do customers want to be texted by like companies? is that Is that what they want that channel for? But I think you know we've um you know with some of our ah colleagues here, we've we've used a platform called Community. It's called Community. It's really unhelpful because it's it's focused on SMS. But they um you know there's some really cool creative things you can do. i think you know you know, particularly when you're talking, you know, you can almost imagine like you're texting a character from for from a game as part of a campaign or like some sort of like something a bit more interactive. but I think that that, and I think that some people would but kind of love that, right? I mean, I'd, you know, i'd I'd be totally up for,
00:44:26
James
I mean, i'm i'm ah I'm a civilization nut and anytime that fire, you know, they drop new information ah on on seven, then i'm I'd be totally up for getting a text or ah or WhatsApp just to kind of, um you know, make sure that I'm um' there in the night, but yeah.
00:44:42
gregp
Is it funny that as you get older, right, at least from my perspective, right, you start seeing trends in the industry again, I go back to like the AOL chat room this day. And the truth is, again, discourse not far from that we had SMS, which I feel like at health shift, right, we tried to promote in app support in apps, but because you own that but now the truth is you can own your discord for lack of better words so why not push your users to discord and and kind of keep the community together and again i think there's these patterns you can see over time that repeat and maybe they mature a little bit but it's just fascinating to see as time goes on kind of how history repeats itself
00:45:17
James
Yeah, well, I mean, what's what's consistent with
Creative Expressions within Fandoms
00:45:20
James
those things? I mean, they're consistent, they're consistent needs, aren't they? Consistent behaviors. And I think that, you know, again, like, you know, fat fandom, fandom really isn't anything new, you know, fandom. I mean, for me, it goes back to, the I guess, the fifties and the sixties, Elvis Presley, the Beatles, and probably there's precedent for it before I'm sure that maybe there was some kind of something we interpret as fandom in Roman Empire or something, I don't know. But like, ah Um, you know, if you look back at some of the behaviors then way before on, you know, online, you know, fan clubs, it's like, you know, I'm, I'm really into something. I want to, I want to, I want to be with other people who are really into that. I kind of want to, I want to, I want other people to help fan the flames of my, how much I love this thing, you know, like, um, and, um, and I, and I also kind of want to create around.
00:46:16
James
that you know want kind of create I want to create art. I want to create fan fiction. I want to make my own music that sounds similar to to them.
00:46:24
gregp
you.
00:46:25
James
I mean, we talk about the Beatles. That's kind of how the Beatles came about, really, wasn't it? They were listening to Chuck Berry and and and and you know and they were kind of Little Richard. And and they wanted to they wanted it to be like that. So um yeah, I think i think it's it's it's something that's just in us all, really. um there all of these desires and motivations that we have. And I suppose we're just finding new ways to to satisfy them, which is probably why you do see these kind of cyclical things looking quite familiar because they're all so serving similar needs.
00:47:02
gregp
trying to improve on what we did in the past, you know, make make it a little better, a little easier.
James's Career Aspirations and Path
00:47:06
gregp
ah Before we go today, James, there's a question I normally like to ask earlier, but I didn't is, when you when you were growing up, right, what did you want to do for a living? Odds are since it didn't exist, it it wasn't being a head of community management. But but what did you want to do? Was it rely on the copyright aspect of it or?
00:47:23
James
uh i mean i i i got i came to it quite late i was i mean i spent quite a long time trying to be a fighter pilot of all things um and i uh right up until just before i went to university um and no i mean when i went to university and after i sort of abandoned that uh i you know i mean i always enjoyed writing so that was the thing that i think you know i i wanted to
00:47:32
gregp
Bye-bye.
00:47:51
James
i wouldn't even say I necessarily wanted to write but I'm like okay that's something that at school I was pretty you know it was always kind of good in those classes at school and and so that's probably something worth um kind of following that thread really so ti took English and and then you know out of that journalism seemed to make sense um so it was more I guess I was quite a pragmatic kid it wasn't so much like This is what I want to be. This is more like, these are the things that, that I think i' I'm pretty good at. So I'm just going to kind of follow them through. It was some, it's the conversation I have quite recently actually, you know, it's cause I've got two kids still and I was listening to a podcast, uh, recently that, and I completely forget what podcast it was, but it was kind of around about changing the, um,
00:48:42
James
changing the terminology really, like instead of talking about, this is what I want to be, um which is kind of having like a vision of a vision of yourself and sort of being like, okay, I see myself. I think a classic one is a lot of people they love, they love to kind of envisage themselves as ah as a novelist. They love that version of themselves. but then actually struggle and they don't necessarily secretly enjoy sitting down and writing. That's kind of a pretty classic example. And it got me thinking about how it's kind of, yeah, like maybe it's more useful instead of thinking about what do I want to be, but it's like, what do I want to do? What are the things that I actually want to just sit down and actually do and get on with that? that i
00:49:27
James
that I enjoy and I'm you know comfortable with and I kind of find satisfying and fun and and you know really letting those take me to to where I'm gonna be rather than this kind of. So um yeah, no, I think that was ah what I was all about really. I'm like, well, this is kind of the sort of thing I enjoy doing. So I'm gonna, that carried on through my career.
00:49:48
gregp
It's a
00:49:50
James
you know And even now, at this I'm kind of come full circle and be like, there are all these different aspects of, um of of community management in the work that we do and I think then as I've got older I focused a little bit more on the kind of data analytics side of it. Because ultimately, that was that was something that i once I dug into it, I realized, ah, I really really enjoyed doing this. I really enjoyed the logic of of working through and um you know building these kind of systems versus maybe some of the creative work that I kind of thought I enjoyed, which I still do, but scratches a different edge.
00:50:29
gregp
from fighter pilot to a writer to analytics.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts
00:50:34
gregp
I love just the wildness of everything going on there.
00:50:35
James
go another day in the life of a community manager.
00:50:39
gregp
Right? And I love what you said is find something you love doing in your job. It's a very mature way to look at it, right? Because you don't really understand that concept when you're younger. Because at the end of the day, your job is going to be your job. And quite frankly, it's a job for a reason. It's not always gonna be fun. But if you can find a task that you like, if you like something that you do from within your job, I think that's the best way anyone can look at that because that's what you're gonna have to do every day. And you're gonna love doing it. um It was just some awesome stuff that you said there that I really liked it. I just kind of learning about yourself or along the way and kind of riding that high, I feel like that's the best way to go about doing it. With that being said, James, that's all I have for you today. Is there anything else you want to just talk about or share with our audience?
00:51:20
James
um No, I think it's been pretty a pretty comprehensive chat. thanks greg i ah Thanks for having me on. um I'm glad we got to talk about it. um i mean i'm sure that ah those listening to this know that they can kind of follow up with us and obviously anybody that whatever stage they are at building a community for their game we're always we're always up for a chat and to understand how we can how we can offer advice or offer you know direct support but um uh I'm sure otherwise yeah thank you so much I really appreciate what you uh what you put together here I think it's a great job so yeah good to see you
00:51:55
gregp
Yeah, I appreciate it. And before you go, I'm going to ask one last question is, what is the hardest channel to moderate?
00:52:03
James
Hardest channel to moderate, ah YouTube.
00:52:06
gregp
YouTube.
00:52:07
James
Yeah, the the tools are, um I mean, it's it's particularly yeah particularly live streams on YouTube.
00:52:07
gregp
That's not the answer. I saw comment.
00:52:15
James
I mean, historically, YouTube used to attract a lot of, let's call them, interesting comments. i think it's I think it's probably gotten a lot better now. But I think i know that live live streams on Discord that unfortunately the tool sets are a little bit not quite where they are with Twitch. So I know that that's technically one of the most and one of the more difficult ones for us to moderate. but so
00:52:41
gregp
Alright. Well, James Gallagher is the head of Community Management at Keyword Studios. He runs this great cool practice that helps you grow your community, protect your community, keep them safe, and just help you grow your game. ah We'll have information about James as well as kind of how you can get in touch with him on our Play and Engage website. We'll also be posting about it on social media. So James, thank you so much for coming in here today, teaching us about this, and giving us a high level of community management and how to focus. I love the conversation. I learned a lot myself, so thank you so much, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.
00:53:12
James
Likewise, thank you Greg.