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Ep 45: What Executive Recruiters Need from GCs: Joelle Khoury, Consultant at Egon Zehnder
104 Plays5 months ago
What does a former GC-turned-executive recruiter wish she'd known about creating a personal brand, working with search firms, and negotiating the offer? How do executive recruiters help take careers where they need to go—not just to the next level? And when is the right time to start building a meaningful relationship with executive recruiters?
Joelle Khoury, consultant at Egon Zehnder, built a towering career as an in-house counsel at private equity giants like Saban Capital Group and Fifth Wall and at law firms including Cooley LLP and Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP. But when the time came to make a change, she pivoted from leading to legal to helping other lawyers find the career paths that best suit their interests.
Listen as Joelle shares insider tips on how to reach out to executive recruiters, navigate the interview and offer processes, the wrong way to approach a negotiation, and when to reassess whether the profession you’ve chosen is still the right one for you.
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-45
Topics:
Introduction: 0:00
Building a legal career at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher and Cooley LLP: 3:09
Comparing Saban Capital Group with Fifth Wall: 5:55
Advice to lawyers raising capital for the first time: 8:16
Leaving Fifth Wall and reassessing your career plan: 9:55
Taking time off before joining Egon Zehnder: 11:22
Transitioning from a legal career to executive recruiting at Egon Zehnder: 16:07
Advice to executives looking to executive recruiters for new opportunities: 21:43
Tips for nailing the interview process: 26:10
Tips for negotiating after receiving an offer: 29:40
Lessons you learned as a recruiter that you wish you’d known as a GC: 33:33
What you wish you’d known as a young lawyer: 35:27
Connect with us:
Joelle Khoury - https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelle-khoury-21959814
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading CLM platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
Introduction to Spotdraft and guest Joelle Corey
00:00:00
Speaker
And I was so wrong, you know, and it's just one of the things I hope to bring to other general counsels. It's really leverage your network and your network can be so many different things.
00:00:20
Speaker
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Speaker
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Joelle Corey's career journey
00:01:09
Speaker
What does a former GC, who is now an executive recruiter, wish that she'd known about how to brand yourself, work with search firms, and negotiate the offer? Today, we are joined on the abstract by my friend Joel Corey, an executive recruiter at Acre, one of the world's leading executive search and leadership advisory firms. Before joining Aegon, Joelle spent nearly a decade leading the legal functions at a real estate focused venture capital fund, Fifth Wall, which is very successful, as well as a private investment firm, the Saban Capital Group. Joelle, thanks so much for joining me today on The Abstract. It's great to be with you, Tyler, my first podcast ever. So I really appreciate you taking a chance on this recovering lawyer. Well, we have a friendly audience, so don't be nervous. yeah A lot of them have been in in your shoes, both as a recovering lawyer and also with this being their first podcast they've done. I'm excited to have you. I'm in good company then. thank Thank you so much. You are. Before we start talking tactically about what you wish that you'd known when you were a GC, I want the audience to get to know you a little bit, ah like I have. Tell me about what inspired you to become a lawyer in the first place.
00:02:25
Speaker
You know, it's it's a good question and one I didn't even prepare for. I mean, I think, you know, the best answer is it just made a lot of sense when I was 22 years old. And, you know, I liked English. I like to argue. Yeah. I thought law sounds great. You know, it it was a great career choice for a really long time. And I definitely learned a lot from it. I would say that as I raise my own children, there are lessons learned about how I made that decision. I would want to impart on them. But I think overall, you know even now in this new career, when I think about all the the things I'm bringing with me, um I have a much deeper appreciation for the education, of the journey, and all the people I met along the way.
00:03:09
Speaker
I guess I neglected to mention it in your your introduction, but you did have stints at at two big law firms, Gibson Dunn and I think you sort of like grew up as a lawyer and then Cooley. How did you like life at the firm? Like, did you know that you always wanted to go in house as you were leaving law school or did that happen more organically? You know, it's funny. I think so many people go to law school coming out kind of thinking that they'll become a partner. And I think I was kind of part of that group that you know was focused on the, what what was that survey with the how they ranked the firms? I'm forgetting that. 100 or 500 or something like that.
00:03:48
Speaker
And I remember in 2004, it was almost like a badge of honor when you were kind of interviewing with these firms and kind of thinking through their rankings and making decisions like that. You know, I know I'm digressing a little bit, but I feel like in the first few years, that was definitely something that I had my eye on. I really enjoyed the smart people I was working with. I really enjoyed the mentorship at the firms. But you know, it's funny, in 2012, I was part of a ah group that kind of helped open the Cooley office in Santa Monica. and i think Yeah, it was it was really great. ah Tech was becoming a thing in l LA. um It was a wonderful group of attorneys that kind of got together in a Regis office space at first.
00:04:31
Speaker
and then kind of had this beautiful office space on Ocean Avenue, I remember, maybe not on Ocean, but with Ocean views that has since you know grown tremendously. I think I was really energized in those moments by the build, the smaller group, the you know kind of idea of growing an office, building, kind of being part of a strategy and vision. And even more so, I kind of started feeling like I would do these transactions, I would work on these transactions, but then I wouldn't know what happened. right? You kind of do your deal, you put your closing book in a bookshelf and you kind of wait for the next deal to come. And as I thought more about kind of where I was interested and where I was energized, it was much more around kind of why the business makes decisions, the strategies of making decisions.
In-house experiences and strategic roles
00:05:16
Speaker
And I feel like that was a ah big impetus. You know, I kind of flirted with the idea of going to business school five years into my practice.
00:05:23
Speaker
um Wow, you'd be so credentialed. Imagine how many degrees I would have been able to put on a wall at that point. But um you know, i I realized that, you know, perhaps ah more education at that stage in my life wasn't necessarily the right path. And so I ended up finding my way after many years of practice based on a random recruiting call I got, you know, while I was on maternity leave with my second child to join, you know, a private capital firm in Los Angeles, which is where I landed. And I think it was 2014.
00:05:55
Speaker
Tell us ah a little bit about that. so First, you were at Saban, and then you were at Fifth Wall. but Fifth Wall, in particular, experienced sort of incredible growth, both in you know assets being managed and headcount while you were there. Tell us a little bit about your experiences at at those two firms, and and and maybe even sort of like contrast for our audience how that how they differed. because they they both have you know they They're both funds, but they have sort of very different business models. Yes, no, that's ah' a really interesting question. You know, Saban was a family office. um I feel like if you were to ask me what was the biggest learning moment for me in the family office world, I think twofold. One, kind of assessing commercial risk. And I think you probably hear that from so many outside counsel lawyers who kind of go in-house. It's like learning that skill and learning how to flex that muscle was important.
00:06:43
Speaker
I had a wonderful mentor and I'm so grateful to her. She's become a dear friend. And you know as you get older, you kind of appreciate those people that invest in you. And she definitely invested in me. There was a creativity in the family office world where you're kind of not bound by rules and strategies and standards. And I think that kind of enabled me to to do many different things that I think at a law firm, I would not have been able to do. I mean, typically, at least when I was growing up in the firms, it was either you're an M and&A lawyer or a securities lawyer or an employment lawyer, but you know, you start to go in house and oftentimes you become a real estate lawyer and a films lawyer and a contracts lawyer and a foundation lawyer. And so I think that, you know, kind of being able to to flex those skillset and kind of think more about it being a business partner.
00:07:28
Speaker
as opposed to kind of how I viewed you know my role as more providing advice and then stepping out you know was was the biggest learning moment at Saban. Fifth Wall was a tremendous opportunity. I had no experience with institutional capital. I had no experience with with capital raising, and I learned on the job. you know very high growth environment, very challenging environment, but also a great learning experience as well. um There was a massive amount of growth when I was there, working with incredibly smart and talented people, a different vibe, you know, but a fantastic opportunity to finally sit in the general counsel seat, an opportunity to kind of sit at the table and help think through the decision making process, think through strategy in a way that when I was at the firm and at Saban, I didn't have the opportunity to
Advice on capital raising
00:08:15
Speaker
do as much. Not the focus of sort of the episode, but since you brought up raising capital and and that being a huge learning for you, if folks are out there and maybe they're doing that for the first time, they've joined a Series B, Series C startup and they're having to do a big capital raise. Any advice for them on like what makes that process go really right or or also like a mistake or two to avoid?
00:08:39
Speaker
You know, it's a good question and you didn't even prepare me for this one. I think the biggest skill to bring to the table in those situations, frankly, tends to be communication, communicating with your internal stakeholders, communicating with your external stakeholders, making sure that you're kind of aligned in the strategy, the vision for success. the what the end result should be and like and making sure that the steps you're taking are in line with that macro strategy. I think oftentimes in high growth environments when you're going 100 miles an hour and you're trying to get things done, it's often easy to lose sight of the macro. And I think, you know,
00:09:13
Speaker
There will always be a skilled person in a lot of ways who can execute and get it done and get the paperwork together. But kind of thinking through the long-term strategy, thinking through not what's happening tomorrow, but what may happen six months from now and a year from now, is a way to kind of get out of the weeds and think a little bit more broadly about where your firm wants to go and what they want out of the capital raise. Fantastic. See, you can go off script. i mean I don't know. I guess it's because I'm so comfortable having known you now for a couple of years. I'm forgetting where this may show. that's That's great. In other words, it's not totally tactical or it's not something you can learn in a book. It's also about sort of the relationships that you have within that company or or a fund or with the investors. How did you know that it was time to leave fifth wall? you know i mean Things were going so well. right like when When did you decide, hey, it's time for another chapter? Well, you know it's what happens when you turn 40, Tyler.
00:10:08
Speaker
I know you've got you've got some time for that. But you know, I have two kids, I have a 10 and 12 year old, I had practiced for over 15 years. And you know, I just started thinking a little bit more about what success meant to me, what energized me, what I wanted to do with the second half of my
Career reflections and personal fulfillment
00:10:22
Speaker
career. You know, at a certain point, I mean, it's it's as simple as it just was time for me to to move on and to think, you know, a little bit more about the things that I felt like I really wanted to do. as opposed to I think for the first 15 years or so of my career kind of just getting to that next level of success, whether that was corporate associate, senior associate, director, VP, GC. yeah In a lot of ways, we're almost programmed. um And I don't know what law schools are like from now, but I certainly felt a pressure to kind of go off this linear upward path.
00:10:55
Speaker
and and have that be kind of the definition of what success meant. right um And I would measure myself by this linear upward path in law. And I think what happened is you're almost forced sometimes, whether it's your age, whether it's your your circumstance in life, whether it's really thinking about your day to day and what you're doing in that day to day. And you start you start thinking, I think all of us do. um I don't think it's personal to me. I think all of us start thinking through that a little bit more. You took like a year off or so before joining Aegon. What did you do with that time? What a fun year that was. Um, it was such a fun year. It was the first time in my career, you know, absent maternity leave that I actually paused. I was one of those people back in the day that went straight from college to law schools. So I felt like, again, I was always, as so many of us are just driving, driving, driving, you know, to the next goal. I went to a lot of conferences. That's how I met you.
00:11:52
Speaker
Yeah. um I ah did a lot of walking. I'd put on my tennis shoes, go walking. i you know ah I have two kids that were growing in front of my eyes. I would spend time with them. I would travel. you know Honestly, I did a lot of no agenda meetings. I interviewed for fun, right? Not because I wasn't potentially interested in a role, but because I really wanted to take the time to really explore what it was that I felt like I wanted to do next. And I want to like underscore something here as I say this. That is certainly a privilege that I have for a year, and it's a privilege that I am so deeply grateful for having. I think all of us in life have the opportunity to make choices, right? When we're educated and we have the privilege of great education, we have the ability to make choices, whether that's you know money for time or time for money or growth
00:12:41
Speaker
ah for for time, whatever those those trade offs are. In that moment in that year, I made the decision to just choose to live in a way that was not goal oriented. And I really met some amazing people along the way and people that I think 15 years ago, I never would have thought would have come to my life in the way they did. Did you have a finite sort of end date when you were going into this? Like I'm going to take a year off or or was it more open ended? Like when the right opportunity comes along for what I think my next adventure is going to be, I'm going to seize it. You know, Tyler, I'm not that privileged.
00:13:20
Speaker
No, there was definitely a time limit. I mean, to the day, perhaps not. But I was hoping that within a year, I would figure it out. I mean, I definitely was very keen on continuing my career in some way, shape or form. And I just wanted to give myself the space to do it. And I was so blessed to have a husband that was incredibly supportive ah during this period, which I would be remiss not to to bring up on this call. um But you know I think at the end of the day, the most fun part was not having an agenda. And for the first time in my life, I did not have an agenda. And I think so many people come to me now, and I know we're going to get to this later, and say things like, this is where am I going to find my next job? Or I want it to be bigger, or I want it to be better. And it's it's interesting because I feel like the best advice I can give when when asked is just give yourself the opportunity to just really dig deep.
00:14:11
Speaker
and think about where your superpowers are and where you want to be, yep you know as opposed to just ticking off the next box on your checklist. ah One thing that I want to mention here that I learned, and I think I've said it on other episodes where we talk about sort of like moments of transition or when you're in between jobs for six months or a year or whatever it is. When, when I had that experience a couple of years ago, one of the things that was really great for me to see is even if you don't have a company or a sort of brand attached to you, people still want to pick up the phone and talk to you. and And I'm sure that you experienced that as well with all the success that you had in your career up to that point. But, you know, I think for those folks out there who might be like, maybe they got laid off or the company went through a transition or they decided that they needed to take three months or six months off, right? Like people will take your calls.
00:14:57
Speaker
because they want to talk to you, not Joelle at Fifth Wall. They want to talk to Joelle. I'm sure you have that experience too. That is totally fair. I definitely was deeply appreciative of the people that came out and talked to me when I called, people that I had never met before that just became dear friends over that period. And you know it'ss it's funny, you know I know I'm looking ahead again, but one of my dearest friends that I met during that period became such a huge supporter. And you know, in a lot of ways, I think in my prior life, I would have thought to myself, you know what? She's a general counsel like I am. She's also looking for her next opportunity. Perhaps that's not the right place to kind of hope.
00:15:38
Speaker
that something may come from the relationship that's work-related. And I was so wrong, you know? And it's just one of the things i I hope to bring to other general counsels. It's really leverage your network. And your network can be so many different things. I hate that word, network. yeah Your relationships, right? Like leaning into your relationships can often provide so much value for both sides at different times. And so it's it's the process, Tyler. I tell people it's the process. It's not the end result. Tell us about the process that led you to Agon. Did they find you? Did you find them? How how did you find this sort of next great adventure? Well, fifth wall was the and the individual at Fifth Wall, who I really credit to kind of bringing me over to the firm,
00:16:24
Speaker
is someone that I had actually met through Fithwall when I was at Fithwall. And what I really appreciated about him, and he's amazing, is he really spent that whole year checking in with me, thinking about me, understanding kind of where I was in my career, answering
Joining Egon Zehnder and its services
00:16:42
Speaker
my emails. And throughout that year, I developed a relationship with him that was very valuable ah for me, as I thought about my next steps, and it was very generous of him to do it. um About six or seven months in to my sabbatical, he actually called me about a general counsel opportunity that Aegon Zender had been running. And it was in Los Angeles, and it was right up my wheelhouse. And he said, would you be interested in going to to chat with them?
00:17:07
Speaker
Long story short is through that process of interviewing with that company, he started really listening to the types of things that I was so drawn to in my next move. And those were kind of people. Those were relationships. Those were impact. Those were making a difference. And I don't know, maybe over the course of many conversations at one point, he asked me, you know, you keep talking about people and impact in relationships, not, you know, settling lawsuits and real estate deals and, you know, and MNA. Have you ever thought of doing you know going into leadership advisory and and recruiting. And you know if I'm being completely honest, my initial reaction was no.
00:17:49
Speaker
But look, he he wasn't at all pushy. He was incredibly gracious. And you know honestly, after a six-month soul-searching process um and conversations with the firm that I knew very little about, I fell in love with the model. I fell in love with the people. I fell in love with what they do. And I truly believe that there's a massive amount of impact and opportunity for firms like Agon Zender to really make a difference in people's lives and in and company lives. Was it scary to step sort of off of that very linear track? No, no.
00:18:23
Speaker
ah Of course, it was scary. It was incredibly scary. It was many late nights talking about how after 17 years or 16 years practicing, yeah um I was going to completely change course. It was probably one of the hardest decisions I ever had to make. And let me tell you, without getting too transparent, there were certainly trade-offs, short-term financial trade-offs that I had to to wrestle with. But fundamentally, like I kept telling myself, you know and and I love to tell my GCs this, there are way smarter and better attorneys than me, okay? But I'm not awful, right? Sure. but I don't doubt that. you know i mean
00:19:07
Speaker
Like people who are somewhat intelligent or smart at any point in that spectrum can do so many different things often. And I just wanted to be very true to myself in that moment. And my husband was a massive support. And for me, it was about there wasn't a single person at Aegon Zender that I met. And I had met almost 30, if you can believe it, that I didn't like. It was global. It appealed to like, you know, the first generation immigrant in me. It was you know a bunch of very smart former operators that were very well educated that come in to help make big decisions for big companies with respect to talent, which frankly, in my opinion, is the most important part of a company's path. And you know it just really resonated with me. And so I took the jump. I figured, you know worst case scenario, I go bag my former peers for a job.
00:20:01
Speaker
But um i'm over I'm over a year in now, and I don't have any regrets. Tell us a little bit about what all the firm does, or or or sort of what all you offer. Because I think people understand, OK, Aegon's an executive recruiting firm, and they you know place talent, right? But there's also a bunch of other sort of services that that you offer as as well around sort of advisory, and leadership, and coaching, and succession planning. and So so talk talk to us about that. Tell us what the firm does. Absolutely. So people are, I guess like me, typically think about recruiting as just transactional search. I would say that Agonsender is different from that perspective because we offer a whole suite of services that really resonated for me as a former practitioner around you know board placement.
00:20:47
Speaker
CEO, CFO, C-suite placement, team development, almost ah reviews of talent, ah board effectiveness. ah So basically, you know, the idea is search is only one way to solve human capital issues in an organization. There could be other things going on. So those types of leadership advisory assessments are part of what we do for larger organizations, you know, team building type work. So I think what I love about Aegon is it's incredibly customizable when it comes to the search plus type work we do. And um especially having kind of been in that seat in my prior life and worked in-house in my prior life, I can definitely see how that mix of, and I've seen how that mix of former operator meets search, you know, results in a lot of benefit, both for candidates
00:21:37
Speaker
Right? You know, much easier to talk to somebody in in a field that you formerly practiced in and also clients.
Personal branding and networking tips
00:21:43
Speaker
We're going to get into the part that everyone's been waiting for, which is sort of like tactically. Let's say that I'm an executive and I'm looking for a new opportunity. How would Agon find me? How do I get on your radar or the firm's radar? So there's a lot of different ways. I would say the best way obviously is via you know a warm introduction through someone who knows someone at Aegon Zender or any other search firm. I would say one of the things that was very much a learning experience for me is the importance of brand, right? And so I would say for someone like me who wasn't schooled in social media as much, you know, LinkedIn,
00:22:22
Speaker
ah is a really great way to tell your story. And one of the things I love to tell general counsels about how to get found or how to get seen is make sure your LinkedIn profile tells your story. Not that it just provides where you've worked over the last 15, 20 years, but it tells the story of who you are and who you want to be, right? Because in a lot of ways, the more you can show that on LinkedIn, the more likely you are to be called about an opportunity that is very interesting. Uh, to you, you know, and one of the other kind of less obvious ways I would say is, you know, oftentimes GCs or any other executives will call when they're ready to move. They'll say, I'm so sick and tired of my job. I'm going to jump off a cliff. Like it's time for me to move. yeah but The reality is these jobs often take so long to find, and there aren't many of them. And so the earlier you can foster opportunities to get to know
00:23:16
Speaker
executive search firm recruiters, the more likely you are to get those calls, even if you're not looking now, right down the line. So I guess how do you do that? Think a little bit about being a little bit more of a GC plus, for example. Like if I were going back to my former self, I might think, okay, I am playing in the legal lane, but you know, talent does matter too. What kind of talent insights am I seeing from the market? What are what are firms seeing in terms of compensation trends? Similar to the way you might network with law firms whose services you might want to use, take the opportunity to learn, bring those executive search firms to your to your company. Have them meet with your CHRO, your C-suite. Develop relationships that run deeper than just that transactional. I'm looking for a job. Here's my resume. What do you have going on? Because it's almost human nature, right? At the end of the day, when I've got a public company GC search or I've got
00:24:12
Speaker
ah private equity-backed GC search. The first place I'm most likely to tap are people that I've known for a while because I'm much more comfortable putting forward people who I have a relationship with than those I've met just on the search, right? And so I feel like that's part of it. Not always, but that's part of it, especially if if the person is perfect for the role. Yep. We've talked a little bit about personal branding. I love that tip about telling your story on on LinkedIn. Anything else that that you would recommend as folks think about positioning themselves to be known in sort of an authentic way by exec recruiters? The best advice I could give to a general counsel is know exactly what you want and be very modest about how you play that. But it's okay to say, I'm looking for X.
00:25:03
Speaker
It's much more effective to say I'm looking for X than to say, well, I was at Simpson and c Cravath for seven years doing M and&A, then I went to a private equity back company and that in the ed tech space, for example, and so now I'm looking for my next gig. That's much less effective than I'm really energized by EdTech. I do it in my spare time. I'm very knowledge about the policies in the space, the space. I would love strategic introductions to people like that if I could ever be a resource myself to folks that are looking there, because then you become somebody that I would immediately think about in an EdTech search.
00:25:41
Speaker
as opposed to having all these skills or this big toolbox of skill sets that could potentially work. But you know I tell people, when we get hired, and when I say we, I don't mean just Aegon Zender, we get hired to solve a specific need in the search strategy. And the closer we can get to the bullseye of that need, the the happier our clients are and the happier our candidates are.
Interviewing and negotiation strategies
00:26:06
Speaker
Right? So hopefully that's a little bit of of context for you. That's super helpful. Let's say that you're an exec and you've started to build relationships with a variety of firms and you actually get into an interview process that's being run by one. What are your tips for success? How do you make sure that you sort of nail the process with the exec search firm?
00:26:24
Speaker
You know, with the C-suite, it's funny because qualifications oftentimes become table stakes because even for me, as I got into this new world of recruiting and i was so that it was awesome to see all these amazingly smart, successful people that are also fun general counsels. or fund general councils of bigger funds. I think the best advice I could give is transparency and high EQ. And what that means is respond. There's no game to be played, right? Be available. Be transparent. If you're interested in the job, say it. If you're not interested in the job, say it, right? At the end of the day, when you think about the type of search we do, it's a relationship business.
00:27:12
Speaker
And so thinking beyond just, ah, that doesn't sound interesting to me, no thank you, or I'm going to wait a week to respond to, wait a minute, this is a firm that is doing searches, not just this one, but but many more, bringing that EQ to the table, bringing that thoughtfulness to the table, offering to be a source in other, you know, areas and being helpful back, I think are kind of the little things that go a really long way to building that trust, building that relationship. And frankly, through that process, allowing the recruiter to get to know you, right? Because when that trust is built, that trust translates.
00:27:49
Speaker
And so it becomes a story, it becomes a way to really genuinely tell the client, these are qualities I've seen in this person over years that I know would be accretive to your business. And so the more you can bring your most authentic self to the process, the better. What are you seeing today around sort of virtual or in-person interviewing? i mean And I think a lot of folks maybe struggle a little bit with the virtual aspect because they worry that they can't get that EQ across or it's harder to or any any tips that you would have for folks who maybe get into a virtual process as opposed to an in-person one too.
00:28:26
Speaker
You know, it's such a good question. And I would say that over the last six months, my personal experience has been that the world is very much accelerating and moving back to kind of that in-person, the importance of in-person. I would say whenever you can, find an opportunity to meet whatever relationship you're trying to develop in-person. It just helps. It helps so much in not only understanding kind of a person's style, the way they operate, the way they communicate, but also I think in developing trust and a certain level of professional intimacy that you just cannot duplicate, in my opinion, virtually. But best advice I can give, I guess, is more kind of what I'm seeing in the market, which is that in-person trend is continuing pretty strong and is becoming a differentiator in success for candidates. I would say kind of the openness and the ability as an executive to kind of be there, sit at the table and be excited about that prospect when it comes to building team engagement, building a collaborative executive team.
00:29:33
Speaker
is something that I'm personally seeing more of and something that I wouldn't be surprised, you know, ahot continued in that direction. if If a candidate's lucky enough to get to the offer stage, what have you seen in terms of setting yourself up for success in actually negotiating the offer and and maybe getting what you want out of out of that process? It's funny. Had you asked me this question two years ago, I would have told you it's a negotiation. I would have told you, you use you bring your best negotiation skills to bear because they're gonna you know if they want you to join them, you know you'll get your best offer. And I would say that that is 100% in my experience untrue. I would say that in these searches, because you realize you're one of potentially many, that the best way to manage your comp expectations is to be
00:30:27
Speaker
A, transparent and B, consistent. And when I mean manage comp expectations, I mean it's okay to tell people what it is you'd want to move and that will help make the process and the negotiation on the offer much more seamless. And it will avoid you know kind of the wrong energy coming into a process where you're ready to accept and offer and embark on a new journey. I would say the more transparent you can be with your executive recruiter about what it is you want and the more that story stays the same throughout the search.
00:31:00
Speaker
the more credibility you build, not just for that search, but for others, that you're not going to go in at the last minute you know and say X or Y. And also that you have a little bit of an awareness that you know usually in talent, i mean the client does have choices. right And at the end of the day, the more you can make yourself appear and really be that team player, that person who obviously has you know thresholds and and and needs that you're entitled to have. But the more you can kind of show through that transparency, that credibility, that kind of understated behavior of, this is how much I'm interested in the company. I really want to develop a relationship here and grow,
00:31:41
Speaker
But this is what I and i'd need and this is you know important to me. You just can come off as much less of a much less demanding and it's much more palpable in the process, in my opinion. Very very tactically speaking, i mean I've often heard advice from from folks that say, look, you have different buckets of things that you might want as a part of negotiating the offer, whether it's cash or options or title or certain terms in the contract around severance or double trigger or or what have you, and you have to be willing to give on some of those and push hard on others. ah Taking your sort of advice of not entering this as an aggressive negotiation, what what do you think about that sort of like that approach of having things that you want to push on versus things you're willing to give up? right like Maybe I'm willing to give up the title a little bit,
00:32:32
Speaker
for more options. Is that good advice or is that the wrong way to think about this? You know, I might be a little bit more macro about it. um I might be like, you know, I might talk to the recruiter about it. Like if I had a candidate who said, look, I want you know some job certainty, I want equity valued at X, and I want but base bonus base and bonus you know no less than X. I would say it's okay to be transparent with your recruiter in that process. And if you trust your recruiter enough, Your recruiter will be able to kind of translate kind of that balance of what it is she feels or he feels having gotten to know you with the executives in a way where hopefully they can assist in getting to the right result. Now, at a certain point, the candidate will be finalizing that package with the company.
00:33:22
Speaker
yeah But avoiding surprises, being highly transparent about where the pain points are, can really go a long way in getting to the end game, in my view, in in in a smooth way.
Encouragement for lawyers and career advice
00:33:33
Speaker
As we start to wrap up, the whole sort of theme is around what you wish you'd known when you were a GC. Anything else that you would want to add to that now that you're an exec recruiter and and sort of sitting on the other side of the table? you know I think the best advice I can give lawyers is is less about being an executive search firm and more about just being so like interested and so connected to my former peers and having gone through you know that that journey of growth, that journey of changing jobs, that journey of what's next.
00:34:05
Speaker
I mean, the best advice I can give just having sat here after the process of one year is it's okay to follow your energy. It's okay to take risks and make change. I think kind of me sitting here is less of a how do search firms think and what can search firms think about GCs. And for me personally more, how can I be a resource to general counsels who are often, you know, one of the smartest executives kind of who who have such exposure to the C-suite and to the business. And if you don't love it, like there are, there are other paths. And I hope that if nothing else on this podcast, as I talk to, and and if one person were to listen to this, even it would be, it would be, it's okay to explore outside the box.
00:34:50
Speaker
It's okay to really lean into a process of change. It's okay to kind of leverage those skills and bring them elsewhere. And this isn't me telling lawyers, don't practice anymore. Absolutely not. It's about me telling general counsels, lean into your superpowers, lean into what energizes you. Like a lot of you have earned it. And I think if I can be an example for general counsels of what's different or what can be different or what they That to me is is much more successful than the placements I'm making and and and how they can you know benefit from that, which of course is is is all part of it too.
00:35:24
Speaker
That's the theme of the podcast, so that's great. Maybe your answer will be will be very similar, but but I do like to ask folks, and this is sort of like the traditional closing question, which is if you could look back when you were a lawyer just getting started out of law school at the firm, something that you know now that you wish you'd known back then. God, this is really, really hard. I would have probably taken a little bit more time off. I think it's really important for people between college and law school, if they're not visionaries, I certainly was not one, to kind of sit in the seat of the profession they choose. And I think that if there was one piece of advice I would have given myself perhaps a little sooner than law school, it's go spend six months living and breathing the work you want to do, because that's
00:36:11
Speaker
you can't really measure or understand that piece of it. and At least I couldn't when I was 22 in a way that I could understand it now. So I would say maybe I would have become a litigator. Maybe I would have decided to do public interest law. maybe i would have There's so many other things I i potentially might have done. Now, I want to underscore that I have zero regrets. I think life is a journey and I really appreciate, enjoyed, my experience in all the twists and turns it took. But I think it might have been you know helpful even for my
Conclusion and thanks
00:36:42
Speaker
own children. When I think about their growth and kind of their decisions and the big decisions they're going to have to make, it's think about what energizes you, double down on figuring out whether that truly does, and and follow your path in in a way that leads you to your personal version of success. That's great. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of The Abstract, Joel. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you for having me, Tyler, and I and i hope I didn't disappoint you. but No, this is fantastic. Excellent for for your first podcast and excellent, just as a matter of fact, across all of our episodes. Thanks so much. Thank you very much. Take care. And to all of our listeners, thanks so much for tuning in and we hope to see you next time.
00:37:27
Speaker
Thanks for tuning in today. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd recommend that you give my interview from earlier in the season with Richard Hsu, Managing Director at Major Lindsay in Africa a listen. We talk about how to work with recruiters and find your next role. You can also subscribe so you can get notified as soon as we release a new episode. And if you liked this one, I'd love to hear your thoughts, so leave a rating or a comment. See you all next week.