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Now in Paperback: 'Simple is the Way to Go' with Mirin Fader
1.1k Plays1 year ago
This originally aired on December 10, 2021 as Episode 291.
Mirin Fader is the author of Giannis: The Improbably Rise of an MVP and a staff writer writing features for The Ringer. She is @mirinfader on social media.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Social: @creativenonfiction podcast on IG and Threads
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Podcast Production Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
ACNFers, there were hopes at one point or another in life, but more specifically this week about putting out a new podcast. I have several in the backlog, which I imagine is very frustrating to the authors who came on
00:00:17
Speaker
in November, but there's just been no time to produce them. I almost didn't have enough time to re-up this show on paperback with Mirren Fader, and I was like, should I just let it slide? Well, maybe next week there'll be a new one. I wish I could tell you.
00:00:34
Speaker
When I do, I have a new review to read from a kind listener from Apple Podcasts, but I like to do those on new episodes. And I'll give you an update on the book that won't die.
Episode Background and Athletic Brewing Mention
00:00:47
Speaker
This episode originally aired on December 10th, 2021 as episode 291. I give some of Mirren's details in the old intro. I left in the parting shot because it's kind of an evergreen-y kind of thing.
00:01:05
Speaker
I appreciate your patience regarding the lack of new interviews, but that's where we're at. I can feel publicists metaphorically shanking me with an ice pick for not booking their writers.
00:01:16
Speaker
I have no energy to read right now, but that'll change in time, I promise you it will. The now and paperbacks have been popular, I think, so I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna lean into that and I'm glad people enjoy them. So that's gonna do it right now, seeing efforts, but let's just do my little requisite shout out to Athletic Brewing, my favorite non-alcoholic beer out there. Athletic Light is awful tasty.
00:01:43
Speaker
If you visit athleticbrewing.com, use the promo code BRENDANO at checkout. You got a nice little discount. I don't get any money. I just get little points so I can get discounts on beer and stuff. That's it, all right? That is all I get for doing this little shout out. They are not an official sponsor of the podcast, so I always like to be upfront about that. If you're looking for something that's tasty and you want to skip the hangover, check it out. Skip it, man. Skip it.
00:02:13
Speaker
I love a good bread crumb, but I think, does anybody else call them that except for me? I don't know.
Introducing Mirren Fader
00:02:23
Speaker
Oh, this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast, a show where I speak to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. I'm Brendan O'Mara. How's it going? Well, man, where to begin? Where to start?
00:02:41
Speaker
Listen, every podcast is special in its own way, but some people bring a little extra sizzle to the party. It's a combination of charm, insights, quotability, and above all, that certain measure of playing ball. Basically, you can tell when people are having fun and maybe you're getting a chance to jam in a way that they don't ordinarily get to jam. Enter Mirren Fader.
00:03:09
Speaker
Miren is a staff writer for The Ringer. She's written extensively for Bleacher Report magazine as well. She had two pieces from BR Mag earn a notable selection for the debut of Year's Best Sports Writing, the collection formerly known as Best American Sports
Mirren's Article on Tyler Skaggs
00:03:29
Speaker
Writing.
00:03:29
Speaker
One of those pieces is the feature she wrote about Tyler Skaggs, a former Angels pitcher who passed away from drug overdose. And we dig into the bones of how she reported and wrote that piece. It's what Tyler Skaggs left behind. You can find it at Bleacher Report.
00:03:49
Speaker
She's also the author of Yannis, The Improbable Rise of an MVP. The book was at the printers, essentially, when the Milwaukee Bucks won the NBA title. So she got some serious kind of juice out of that. And the book was on the New York Times bestseller list for a bit. I mean, geez, great stuff.
00:04:09
Speaker
I remember when Rachel Alexandra won horse of the year in this would have been January 2010 after her improbable 2009 run and I was thinking oh my god who isn't gonna want to publish a book about horse racing now? Okay, so Giannis and Rachel totally apples to apples am I right?
00:04:29
Speaker
Anyway, her Giannis book, great book, and we get into how she wrote it, the style in which she wrote it, the chapter headings. That's all one-word chapter headings, and that's a funny little aside that I get into. In the show, great stuff.
00:04:45
Speaker
We don't talk about ball at all. So if you're a basketball junkie, don't forget your gift bag on the way out. You're probably going to want to leave at this point. But if you're a writer, a journalist, and especially a sports writer, hang tight because this is the podcast for you. If you have a word,
00:05:04
Speaker
Here's your wash. Hold on. I'm gonna sip my red can light laga from Hot Valley one of my favorite breweries in town just a second because apparently I can't get the words out of my freaking mouth Please uh, please wait. Oh Oh, yes, that's much better if you head over
Community Support and Social Media Struggles
00:05:26
Speaker
to brendanomera.com hey, you'll find show notes and
00:05:30
Speaker
and your ability to sign up for my up to 11 monthly newsletter, book recommendations, book raffles, and it's just a list of cool things that I think will add some value and entertainment to your life. Whether you be a writer of memoir, essay, sports, you name it. First of the month, no spam, as far as I can tell you can't beat it.
00:05:54
Speaker
Patreon is how we subsidize this enterprise by and large and keep the lights on here at CNF Pod HQ. It's free as you know, but it sure as hell ain't cheap. It's how we pay writers for their work in the audio magazine. Yeah, members get to ask questions of guests and I give you credit for that. There are transcripts and coaching and the knowledge that you're helping this community. Okay, Mirren Fader is here and she's bringing the heat, man. So strap in CNFers. Here we go.
00:06:35
Speaker
Now, just as a weird and kind of wonky jumping off point, of all things to start talking about, today and today alone, I'm trying not to touch social media at all. And it's really hard. It's this thing that always nags at the back of my brain. I hate social media by and large. And I try to avoid it, but I'm always pulled into its vortex. And I wonder what your relationship is to social media and how you navigate it as someone in the media and as someone who just wants to get good work done.
00:07:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'm very different with social media than I would say a lot of my peers. I still don't have an Instagram. So I just have my Twitter. But I think the internet is going to be a part of our lives forever. There's no opting out. But there is a healthy way to choose how to be on it. And I choose to not be a scroller or somebody that's on there for opinions or takes. I really just share some piece of writing
00:07:34
Speaker
advice that I found or some really interesting feature like once a day and that's it like I don't I don't spend my time on social media like that I feel like I I just don't feel good when I'm on there you know so it's not worth it to me
00:07:50
Speaker
Absolutely. And it's great when you can contribute to the ecosystem in a positive way. Like, you know, you'll retweet a story, something that's inspiring, good writing advice, you know, and then of course you'll pop in a story of your own that you're working on. I feel like you have a really, from what I've seen and from your offerings, it seems like it's a net positive for anyone following, but it also doesn't detract from what you're trying to do as a reporter and a writer.
00:08:17
Speaker
Oh, yeah, no way. And I think what it is good for is networking. And I, you know, I met my mentor on Twitter, and then we met in real life. And, you know, a lot of times I just reach out to sources on Twitter. So I think for me, it's I've just decided, you know, my platform is going to be positive. And the focus is the work, like I always say, you know, your portfolio should be your writing, not your personality or your
00:08:44
Speaker
Twitter voice. It's like the body of work is what matters. That's what got you here. It's what's going to keep you here, hopefully, if you're lucky enough. And so that's my focus.
00:08:53
Speaker
Yeah, and the body of work as resume, to me, is so much, it's so, so important, because some people think, you know, the resume or where you go to school matters, and I guess to an extent it might. But over, I'm sure you've had this experience, just over the years, it's the features you write that you pitch to editors and show editors. It's not like, oh, where did you go to college? It's like, no, show me that you can do the work.
00:09:21
Speaker
Exactly. Oh my gosh. I feel so passionately about this. Our best writers do not come from the top journalism school. Sure, they have produced wonderful writers, but I went to Occidental College. It's a D3 school. We don't have a journalism major. I learned by doing. You learn how to be concise with your words when you're out reporting every day. You learn how to
00:09:45
Speaker
be calm under pressure when you have deadlines every week. And no matter where you go to school, nothing can substitute the best teacher alive, which is doing the work. So, yeah, I actually I love talking to students that don't come from traditional journalism
Mirren's Early Career in Journalism
00:09:59
Speaker
schools. I just there's so many other ways to tell a good story that doesn't come from shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars. What would you identify as early growing pains for you as a reporter and a writer?
00:10:16
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think just not moving up. I mean, coming from Occidental College, you know, a school, people didn't know about also being a woman sports writer. It wasn't like there were many of us, you know, so I started at the Orange County Register. And I was, I mean, there's the bottom of the totem pole, and then there was me. I was doing everything that nobody wanted to do, little league, baseball,
00:10:41
Speaker
I did a story on four-year-old baseball. I did a story on fundraisers, junior colleges, high schools. So I think the challenge was I just felt like I wasn't moving up. And it was really hard. That was 2013 to 2017. It was a really brutal time to be at a newspaper. And I just wanted so badly to be moving up and writing long-form features for a magazine. It wasn't happening.
00:11:07
Speaker
I think the other hard thing was getting laid off from that job and becoming a full-time freelancer. So I was half Bleacher Report, half ESPN, but I just could not land a staff job. And so that was a really hard period of time for me. How did you get your foot in the door at BR and ESPN to generate the momentum of that flywheel?
00:11:34
Speaker
Yeah, it was super interesting. I had pitched a story when I was at the OC register, they said I was allowed to freelance if it doesn't involve Orange County. So I had pitched a story to Grantland, RIP, and they turned it down. Allow me just to cut in real quick. Mirin saying Grantland, RIP, can I just say how many people
00:12:00
Speaker
when they recall Grantland, they just say R.I.P. Mary Pallone, now Mirren, I swear there was somebody else in there, it might have been Claire McNair, it might have been somebody else in the run of the podcast. It kills me and cracks me up that everyone just still laments the loss of Grantland. Even though the ringer is kind of like Grantland 2.0, there was something about Grantland that elicits the R.I.P. thing. So anyway, we're gonna go right back to Mirren. I just needed to cut in and say that.
00:12:30
Speaker
they said, here's an editor at ESPN's email, try them, which is so nice. And so I did that and that ESPN person turned it down too. But then I had this magical email address, you know, so I just kept pitching and pitching and all of a sudden one article turned into three and then it turned into like a three year relationship freelancing for them. But again, I wasn't landing that staff job. And then BR Mag, they started BR Mag when I was in my
00:12:58
Speaker
I think my third year at the OC Register and the editors found me, I don't know how, and they were like, you know, we think you have potential. And they came to LA and they interviewed me and they sent me on a trial run to Philadelphia to profile Monet Davis, the little league phenom who was starting to play basketball. And I did the story and it was so fun, but I still didn't get hired. So again, I had this relationship and I just kept freelancing for them, but it just wasn't happening in the way I wanted to. And then when I lost my job,
00:13:28
Speaker
the OC Register Bleacher Report predominantly gave me a lot of work and they said, do you want to go to Lithuania? You can profile a mellow ball. That just changed my life. I was a freelancer and I just left for a month and I came back and I finally got the job. So that's how that happened.
00:13:46
Speaker
And when you had that ESPN editor's address and you had that thing and you were like pitching, pitching, pitching, what part of you was comfortable always knocking on that door, however frequently that was, in the very likely event that things would say no? How did you get over the resistance of constantly pitching and not feeling like you were maybe annoying the person and turning them off?
00:14:15
Speaker
I'm sure I was annoying them, but I, I call it professionally stalking. It's, you know, it's diplomatic and you gotta be a little pushy, but no, I just think, you know, I was so determined and I wanted this so badly and it was really discouraging. You know, it was not easy. It was painful. I felt like I wasn't ever going to break through, but it wasn't going to happen unless I kept at it, you know? And so I think it's just that stubborn.
00:14:43
Speaker
persistence like, okay, if you turn down three of my pitches, I got three more coming tomorrow. And I think that's what got me through was like, just focusing on the work and, you know, letting myself feel discouraged, but not to the point where it stopped me from trying.
00:14:59
Speaker
Yeah, perseverance is so key in this line of work and given that you're a sports writer, and I always lean on sports analogies on this show anyway, it's, you know, batting average is something that we see in baseball. We know that 70% failure rate is actually incredibly successful. You're a Hall of Famer.
00:15:18
Speaker
in pitching and freelancing journalism, we don't see the batting average. So when we get bombarded with rejections, we just don't know relative to the rest of the field, like what's good and what's bad. So we often get beaten down by constant rejection without knowing that, oh yeah, maybe 10 or 20% of the time get landing a pitch is actually like a really good Hall of Fame batting average.
00:15:43
Speaker
oh totally people really don't realize it and not even just the ones that you get turned down but the ones that you report you know midway through and then it breaks down for whatever reason and all that work and and that story is lost um like we could write a book you and i on the lost stories or the rejected pitches or you know that the whole thing is about failure like that's what i think people don't realize the whole this whole thing is about failure you know people are going to reject your ideas or
00:16:12
Speaker
they accept it but the idea doesn't work out or you're sitting there you're writing it's not working I mean
00:16:18
Speaker
This is a very constant thing that you're dealing with all the time, which is why it's really hard and a lot of people are like, I'm just going to go into TV. And so regarding the Tyler Skaggs piece, he was a left-handed pitcher for the Angels who passed away from opioid overdose and alcohol and is accidental death, but no one really knows at this point.
00:16:47
Speaker
When you're thinking about writing this story, maybe take us to the pitch as kind of a chicken-egg question, like pitching the sources versus pitching your editors on
Crafting the Tyler Skaggs Story
00:17:00
Speaker
the piece. Maybe you can take whatever pitch came first, maybe you can take us to that one and how you started to get the ball rolling on that story. Yeah, I mean the first thing I did was talk to my editor about it. I said, because it had been a couple months, like I
00:17:16
Speaker
you know, was not going to pitch this immediately after this person's death, you know, and there were a lot of sensational, you know, pieces out there. And I, the pitch that I had to my editor was, I just feel like I don't know who this person was. And it's very sad to me that the only things I see about him is his life condensed into a headline, you know, Tyler Skaggs dies at age, whatever of an overdose. And
00:17:42
Speaker
You know, I just think it just stripped somebody of their humanity and I wanted to know more who he was. So I think with the pitch, you want to like, what is some question that you're trying to find out? And my question wasn't how did he die? It was who was he when he was alive? And I think that is how I framed the pitch. And so, you know, of course they were interested in it, but a pitch is only as good as
00:18:10
Speaker
what you can make it right so I had to go reach out to the family and it was like eight nine months of reaching out both to the family members and you know the school that the mom worked at and the lawyer that was handling because
00:18:26
Speaker
what made this really difficult is there was an investigation happening and the lawyer was like, you know, I don't think anybody's going to talk until that's resolved. And, but you know, it's squeaky wheel. It's, it's kind of like what we're talking about, about being annoying, but in this case, more like way more respectful, annoying, you know, I'm just checking in every couple of months, you know, nothing crazy. Yeah. So that's how that happened. And then finally,
00:18:52
Speaker
After nearly a year of reaching out, the mom and the fiancé finally said yes.
00:18:58
Speaker
What was the tenor and the nature of those pitches to lobbying? What was it, Deborah? Oh, I'm blanking on the fiance's name. Oh, his wife's name. It begins with a C. I'll pop in with an aside and just say her name. Okay, went back, did a little research. The name of Tyler's fiance is Carly. Carly Skaggs. Okay, back to Mirren.
00:19:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, what was the tenor of those in the patience that you had to want to tell the story and pursue it for eight or nine months? Yeah, just, you know, deeply thoughtful, you know, imagining that I was on the other end of the email and receiving this from some random reporter, you know, how would I want to be greeted and basically being really honest, not not beating around, you know, and just saying, like, this is why I want to do this.
00:19:58
Speaker
I really care about who he was and I want to share that. And I am not here to write a sensationalized story. I'm not here to, you know, I'm not here to make your life worse or cause more pain. And it also was like, you know, I've done a lot of sensitive stories before. Here are some examples.
00:20:19
Speaker
I think empathy is my strongest trait as a reporter and I would bring a lot of empathy to this piece. So that was kind of how I reached out to them.
00:20:29
Speaker
And as you greet them and start speaking with them and interviewing them, what was the reporting process for you and maybe even tools at your disposal, whether you're a voice recorder person or just a classic notebook and pen person? How are you going about curating that information? Well, not curating, but gathering the information from them.
00:20:53
Speaker
Yeah, it was really nerve wracking because number one, the subject matter, but number two is my first in person interview since the pandemic. So that was last August 2020. Yeah, so we were all masked up and everybody was nervous about that. And you know, because I went to their home. And so I think it was just, you know, a lot of just overall nervousness. So I had my recorder and I also had my pen pad, you know, just, I don't know, it was just
00:21:23
Speaker
I'm there to listen, but it's also I have to ask some really tough questions too. And so it was kind of a really tough balance, you know, and his Beyonce started crying even before the interview started. So it was just, I knew this was going to be probably one of the hardest interviews of my life.
00:21:41
Speaker
Not that you ever really get comfortable asking probing questions, but when you're dealing with this kind of interviewing, you have to be very delicate with how you frame questions because you still want to build character and build scenes, but it's about dealing with their grief at the same time. How have you navigated that?
00:22:04
Speaker
understanding that you don't have a right to somebody's trauma and that, you know, feature writing, nonfiction writing is about getting this really strange intimacy with a stranger that you would probably never get with any other human that quickly. And you can't be so quick to ask these really delicate questions. You have to get to know people and get trust. And that comes from asking questions from a place of empathy, you know, and
00:22:32
Speaker
We didn't really even talk about drugs or the overdose until a couple hours in. It really was like, who was he? And I think they felt more comfortable because they could tell I was really there for the right reasons. I really, truly did want to know what I was asking. It wasn't like I was there to write a salacious article. So I think the empathy is a big thing.
00:23:00
Speaker
being a good listener, you know, it's not always about you asking questions. It's about you listening. And what do they look like? How are they talking? You know, there's a scene in the piece about a teddy bear. And you know, the teddy bear thing only came about because I saw the fiance like holding it. And I thought that was a little, you know, I mean, she's grown adult and there's a teddy bear and you got to ask what's that, you know, and then that leads to
00:23:28
Speaker
really deep things like, yeah, Tyler's voicemails are on here, you know? So I think that is also an example of there's no substitute for in person reporting.
00:23:38
Speaker
Yeah, and getting to your point about being a really good listener, I think maybe when we see TV or radio personalities, it never feels like they're listening because the reporter or whoever tends to try to be as big a presence as the person they're extracting information from, which is, as you know, sort of the exact opposite of what you want to do if you're reporting on these kind of stories.
00:24:04
Speaker
So, when you're in these conversations, how much of you is pretty much asking a question as quickly as you can and then just really sitting back and just nodding and just letting them talk? I mean, I think it depends on how open the subject is, but a lot of it is me. When I interject, I ask for detail, because
Storytelling Techniques and Journalist's Role
00:24:30
Speaker
I'm trying to
00:24:30
Speaker
paint the scene, you know, and it's it's you've got to get those details in there. And when somebody says they're sad, that's just, you know, what does that mean? How how sad? How does that manifest? You know, so I think the questions I interject with are more so to draw out anecdotes, because people don't naturally speak in anecdotes. But
00:24:50
Speaker
As far as like how that manifests in writing, I'm not, I don't like being in the story. It's not about me. I'm old school, like the journalist is not the main character. And I think a lot of people, you know, I've only done it twice because my editor made me for the international stories. It just made sense for those, the two lamello ball stories. But for the most part, like you're never going to see me anything these days.
00:25:15
Speaker
A lot of journalists want it to be about them and, you know, we're in the elevator and we're doing this. And, you know, I'm not important. You know, Tyler Skaggs is the important one.
00:25:28
Speaker
And when you're doing your reporting, you're sitting there oftentimes for several hours, for people who think that you just get all the information in one sit down, maybe you can talk about how you or how often you might have to go back to these people to follow up to be like, oh, there's a little nugget here that I probably should have followed up on. Can we expand on that?
00:25:53
Speaker
And how often maybe you circle back to these key figures in your stories? I do it a lot, especially because sometimes, especially if it's a sensitive story like this, somebody might be so triggered by recalling a memory that it's inappropriate to be like, what color was the bed sheet? So I think you have to
00:26:17
Speaker
judge if it's appropriate or not in the moment. So I do tons of follow up stuff and fact checking and I just want to like triple check. Is this really what you said? Do you mean it? Do you mean it like this? Or, you know, I think it's sometimes also people don't just don't remember correctly. They might say something and you just want to triple check. And they're like, actually, it was this, you know. And so I think that is a huge part of the process. I really think writing as weird as it sounds is the least part of it.
00:26:47
Speaker
the most is reporting and following up and fact checking.
00:26:51
Speaker
And how have you gotten comfortable with, and there's often a lot of discomfort involved no matter how skilled you are at it, but of asking difficult and sensitive questions and going to that well. Some people might be really kind of a gun shy to go there, but obviously you gotta go there at some point to build the right scene and get the right mood. So how have you grown in that respect?
00:27:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think there's always going to be a level of trepidation and uncomfortability with that. And I think that's good. Like if you're not, that's weird. You know, this is really hard. But I think I've gotten better at it. You know, if you report and write every day for the next 10 years, like you're just bound to become more confident at it. But I'm always nervous. Like I think the day I stopped being nervous about it, I should probably do something else. And I knew, especially in this story,
00:27:48
Speaker
I had to say, did you know? Did you know he was taking drugs? And I think it's just so hard every single time you ask a pointed question like that. And the seminal quote in that piece about nobody put a gun to his head, yeah, that came from me being like, how do you reconcile the fact that he clearly took this?
00:28:17
Speaker
You don't know much about it. And what, how do you reconcile those things? You know, that you can know somebody so well and not know this one part of them. And that is a really awful thing to propose, you know, and say, but I think you're not there to be somebody's friend. And I think that's where journalism is in a weird place. I think sports media, a lot of people want to be friends with the people they cover and
00:28:47
Speaker
social media stars. And at the end of the day, like you're a journalist, you got to ask your question. So I think it just progressed from just years of having practice doing
00:28:58
Speaker
That part, that's one thing I especially pulled out about him not having a gun to his head because that's how you end the piece and it just hits you very unexpectedly that you can feel the anger and the judgment and the blame that Deborah, the mother is just like, in that moment she's just like angry with her son for doing that.
00:29:24
Speaker
And it's at one point at what point in the reporting did that come out? And when did you know that that was going to be your hammer? You know, that came out like midway through the interviewing process. But I actually didn't know that that was the hammer for a while that I had a different ending originally. And my editor was like, I think the I think originally it was like second to last section.
00:29:52
Speaker
And then he was like, what do you think about making it the last section? And I was nervous about it. But it made sense because this is never going to be OK. This is never going to be OK. And I think ending it that way is real life. There's a tendency to tie a bow on things in sports writing. And so-and-so was such a wonderful person. I'm sure you've read articles where they're like,
00:30:22
Speaker
So when someone's a great athlete, but an even better person and, um, you know, just stuff like that, just really corny stuff like that. And I think this is a situation where it's like, it does a disservice to the story to pretend like it's okay. Like there's going to be, I don't want to be a person that just writes happy stories. Like life is really tough and this is a tough part of society. I mean, today we're interviewing, I feel like I just saw a headline.
00:30:48
Speaker
in the New York Times about like 30% more overdoses from fentanyl this year or something like that. So some article about the rise in overdoses today. So anyway, this is a long winded way of saying like the hammer is there because that is a representation of real life.
00:31:07
Speaker
And once you've filled up your notebook, you've got your recordings, and maybe you've even gone through the transcribing process, or maybe you go through Otter, like I do, to transcribe and then go and clean it up. But once you get all that information, what is your next step when you're starting to curate and try to organize this information? I mean, I make a list. I say, what are my best images? And by images, I mean anecdotes, detailed stories.
00:31:36
Speaker
And I just kind of go through my material and I write those down. And then I say, and it's good too, because if you don't have a lot, you're like, oh, I need to do more reporting. Like clearly there's not enough scenes in here and, you know, a feature lives or dies on the scenes it has. And then I say, and then I write down, what is this story really about? So it's, you know, Tyler Skaggs is not just a story about a person that died. It's about who was he when he lived and
00:32:03
Speaker
It's a story about regret. It's a story about loss. It's a story about really, it's a story about confusion. It's about being unable to reconcile your current situation. So once I know what it's really about, I can kind of take that list of scenes and images and try to put them into a loose structure that makes sense to me. And so then I move them into this structure and then I start writing and
00:32:29
Speaker
You know, oftentimes the structure I pick doesn't work and I end up moving a million things around like Twister. And so it's just, it, you know, it takes, I'm a, I'm a slow writer. It just takes a very, very, very long time for me to write. I sometimes, oftentimes actually start in the middle. I never start writing from the top. I hate the lead. The lead is the scariest.
00:32:51
Speaker
thing ever. If somebody doesn't like it, they're going to stop. So I leave that to the end, too much pressure. So yeah, I start from the middle and then I go down or I start from the middle and I go up. That's great. When I spoke to Susan Orlean a few weeks ago, she's very big on getting the lead right and then it cascades from there.
00:33:11
Speaker
So it's really great to hear your input that you kind of save it, save it for the end. And I almost like saving it for the end because you can almost plant some clues in the lead of all the stuff that you've written already. But I get the other way too of like, let's try to really crank on the lead and then everything should pour out from there. But it's so great to see that dichotomy.
00:33:37
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's a great point about like the clues. I love I love a good bread crumb, but I think I think does anybody else call them that except for me? I don't know. But I absolutely gold coins or bread crumbs. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. No. And I like it too, because like you have to know what the story is really about in order to do the lead. Like I and sometimes you you don't know fully until you write the story. And I think
00:34:05
Speaker
The lead is orienting us into what it's really about. It's hard to know that on first swing, but I mean, Susan is. Susan, she's amazing and I can see how it happens like that for her, but oh my God, I won't even touch the lead. Oh God, I hate just thinking about the lead just stresses me out.
00:34:31
Speaker
Now you said that you're a slow writer, so what is it about the writing of a long feature of this nature that has the gears turning a little bit slow? What's the nature of that slow writing, I guess? Because my structures are never linear or simple. I go in and out of time at random places.
00:34:53
Speaker
like for emotional effect, you know, we might dip down to fourth grade and then come back up. There's a there's a really boring mode of writing out there that I think is like the third section is like dip down how he got into the sport, dip back up to, you know, whatever. And I just like unconventional structures and I like playing with time and
00:35:15
Speaker
That gets very complicated, you know, should this anecdote go here or should it go there? Does it have more emotional impact there? Does it hit you more here? What is the effect of it there? You know, for me, every single sentence has a purpose and, you know, I want to have these moments that hit you and it's hard to, you know, like the one in the Tyler Skaggs one, I forgot what it was, but I think the fiance was like walking home or something and she like,
00:35:44
Speaker
think she's there and it's like by her ankle. I don't know, there was something about ankles and that took me like hours to just sit there and get that image right. Because half the time I overwrite and I want to make it sound pretty. And it sounds bad. And so you have to just keep editing it down and fixing it. And, you know, so it just it takes forever.
00:36:08
Speaker
I'm 100% guilty of overwriting and trying to sound either too funny or too clever sometimes or just getting overly descriptive. And I totally hear you. And a note I made was I kind of really appreciate the – you have very simple sentences. You write in a lot of short sentences.
00:36:29
Speaker
And that strikes me as, since you recognize the overwriting as something that you struggle with, the simple sentences must be a way that you're course correcting and getting back to what it really matters in these pieces, which is let the story speak for itself. Yeah, I think that's definitely it. And I also think it's just the way I naturally hear it in my head.
00:36:55
Speaker
just short and choppy and I like to be rhythmic too. I think the short choppy sentences do like a nice rhythm to it. But also just, I was just like breaking convention. Like when I realized you could have one word sentences, I was like, oh my God, you know, like all the stuff they teach you is wrong, you know, I'm allowed to do that, you know? And I think it just, it took some time to start doing that, but I do like getting to the point, but yeah,
00:37:24
Speaker
Nobody, I try to tell people this all the time, like a lot of writing that you do just isn't good. Like you have to stop yourself from your weaknesses, you know, so you just have to be aware of, of your shortcomings. And I'm super aware of mine.
00:37:44
Speaker
That's so great to hear and what I think of what a lot of people have a problem with too is Not being comfortable enough to sit with enough bad writing for it to have the chance to become good we have right because we have like an image in our head of like oh, this is what it this is what the the perfect ideal sounds like and then you start drafting you're like, oh my god, this is garbage and You just want to stop and then maybe the only thing that keeps us going is like deadlines because it's like well I gotta turn in something
00:38:14
Speaker
but yeah so it's a it's it's one of those things where yeah you just have to get comfortable with the bad writing that stems from your weaknesses but you just got to know through the rewriting process that you know your strength is going to be to tone down that over writing and write more simple sentences which doesn't mean juvenile but it's simple it's lean and it allows a story to come through
00:38:39
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I think the best sentences carry the most weight when they're the most simple. And, you know, I can think of like my favorite books. They all do that. Like, Toni Morrison's Beloved. I think the first line is 124 was spiteful. It's like, what? You know, like, why was it spiteful? What's 124? You know, and it just carries, you're just like, oh, I want to go to the next sentence. Or like, I'm trying to think, just every book I love begins like that.
00:39:08
Speaker
Like very simple, very interesting. I used to think you had to like be really dramatic in the lead, like, like cannonball, like the way I think of it is like cannonballing into a pool and that's not good. Like it's more like dip your foot in slowly and invite the reader to come in.
00:39:27
Speaker
with you is more the goal. But in sports writing, you know, I used to be like really dramatic, score was tied, blah, blah, blah, had the ball, he was gonna do this. And I'm like, Oh, I just I hate it. So I, you know, thankfully, you know, I got to grow up and get a bit better than that. But yeah, it doesn't have to be so dramatic. Just simple as the way to go.
00:39:52
Speaker
And so as you're putting a bow on a story and you know it's getting ready for that publication time, what happens post-publication when you're rolling it out? How do you handle that part after you've finished and then it's time to share this with the world? I feel physically exhausted. When I turn to the store, I'm like, oh my God, I need a day. Because it pulls everything out of me.
00:40:21
Speaker
I get really nervous the night before, you know, like what if I, you know, you just, you doubt yourself. I'm never like, wow, that story was so good. I can't wait for people to see, like when people, when people tweet, like can't wait for you guys to see what I've got cooking. I'm like, ew, that is so bad. You know, I just don't understand. I never in my life have been like that. I'm more like,
00:40:46
Speaker
Wow, I'm surprised people like this or surprised people read this. You know, I think for me, it's like I don't really care what people think about. I mean, of course, I want people to respect me as a writer, but I don't like I'm just not seeking that. I'm more like, did I get this story correct? And by correct, I don't mean did I spell the names correctly. Did I understand this person's soul and what keeps them up at night and what the hell they're dealing with right now? Like that is a very tall task.
00:41:15
Speaker
And that is my only concern. Well, that's great. That's so great to get your insights into that whole process, because it is such a process. And it's only, I don't know, it's jacked up, turned up to 11 or 100 when you're dealing with a book. So you, of course, wrote this wonderful biography on Giannis that stemmed from a B.R. mag piece, I believe.
00:41:42
Speaker
So how did you know that there was book in there and then getting to the point where you're lobbying for that kind of access to write an entire three, 400 page book? Yeah, I had been wanting to do a book for a pretty long time up to that point and just couldn't find the magical combination of
00:42:07
Speaker
right idea, human idea, sellable idea, agent that likes me slash and the idea, you know, it was like a lot of things had to be in the right. And, you know, I had been talking to an agent for a couple months before this and just couldn't quite find it. But he was so nice. And he was like, if you have any more ideas, let me know. And then when this came out, this story came out, I sent it to him. I was like, you know, could this be it? Like, what do you think? You know, we both agreed that it had so much legs because
00:42:37
Speaker
not only obviously was it sellable and it's a superstar, like Giannis, but really nobody really knows much about him. And so that is so fruitful to have a subject where you could be the first, like you could write about things that people don't know about. And his story is so lovely and so universal. And it just so aligned with my purpose as a writer to write stories that I hope, you know, dignify a person's struggle and experience. And so,
00:43:07
Speaker
Yeah, we both thought that this was a really good idea to send our teeth into. And how much access and how much time did you have with Giannis in particular? Of course, you spoke to dozens and dozens of people, but with him as a central figure, how much time did you have with him over the course of the reporting for the book?
00:43:28
Speaker
Yeah. Well, when I did the story that we just talked about, I spent the day with him and his family. So I had a lot from there that I didn't use for the story because it just didn't, it was supposed to be about his brother. And of course it ended up being about both of them. But so I had a, I had a lot left over from that interview. Right when I got the book deal, I, or actually before I flew to Milwaukee to interview
00:43:52
Speaker
his brothers again. But then COVID hit, and his agents wouldn't make him available after that. I only had one year. So March 2020 to March 2021. So yeah, so of course, I would have loved more time, but you kind of can't predict something like that. And I had to cancel my trip to Greece as well. So but luckily, you know, I had the interview with his mom and his brothers and you know, a lot of people close to him and it
00:44:21
Speaker
ended up being 221 interviews total. That's amazing. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of tape. That's a lot. That's the work right there. And to it's a it's got to be what you know what a challenge to take a whittle whittle that stuff down into you know mining it for the ore that becomes a book. I mean it must have been an incredible challenge to to outline and structure a book around so much material.
00:44:48
Speaker
It was so hard. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. And I think part of the challenge was like so much happens in childhood, but like you can't start the NBA years on page 300. So it was like, I know I'm going chronologically, but like you can't have everything. So I, it was, I wrote five different versions of this book and it's, I don't know. I think there's no right version. It's just,
00:45:18
Speaker
you run out of time and it's due. And the one that we went with is the one that we went with. Right. I love the scene that is very, you know, pretty much right in the beginning of the book of them moving this refrigerator to another apartment. And you just get a sense of they're quite literally like moving, you know, always got like the weight of, you know, the family is carrying the weight of each other.
00:45:44
Speaker
you know, down the road. It's like so symbolic, but you don't like, you just lay it out there. You don't hit us over the head with the meaning of that. It just feels, it feels as heavy as you lay it out.
00:45:55
Speaker
I mean, you know, my weaknesses. I got to keep myself in check. I can't be like the weight of the world is on this young man's shoulders and he's airing it even as a, you know, like I know what I suck at and I, I, I really, you got three, you know, you, you've got 400 pages grow. Like you don't need to, you don't need to tell us on page one.
00:46:20
Speaker
It's so funny, though, because you know my aversion to leads, but I knew that was going to be my lead when I got that anecdote that day. So I was at the Lakers practice facility or the G League practice facility after interviewing
Balancing Joy and Struggle in Storytelling
00:46:35
Speaker
Kostas. And he told me that. I was like, yeah, that's the lead. It hit me in a way that I just have never been hit before by an anecdote. I knew it was because I think it also there was so much joy. They were like giggling as they
00:46:49
Speaker
wield this thing, you know, and I think that's the story, right? It's like it's not just this epic struggle. There was so much joy in it as well and craftiness and togetherness.
00:47:01
Speaker
Now the family is Nigerian and Greek, and you have at the start of the book the Nigerian and Greek Proverbs. The Nigerian one is, however far the stream flows, it never forgets its source. And then the Greek is like one minute of patience, 10 years of peace. When did those strike you and hit your ear and you're like, oh wow, this is gonna be the perfect way to really symbolize the struggle of this family?
00:47:30
Speaker
I think that was way late in the game, actually, like, probably a couple months before it was due. I always knew I wanted from the beginning, I knew I wanted to have two different proverbs, one Nigerian, one Greek, because I knew that that was a central tension, not even a tension in the book, but just like a central thing that he's grappling with, just identity is huge, and there's these two ginormous parts to him.
00:47:55
Speaker
People really only focus on the Greek part of him, so I knew from the jump I wanted readers to know, no, this is a book about both of them. This is not just the Greek freak. There's going to be as much as about Nigeria. And so it took me a while to find the right one. I knew the messages I wanted to convey. There's a whole lot more Nigerian proverbs than there are Greek proverbs. Let me tell you that. So I had to find the right one. But as a lover of literature,
00:48:24
Speaker
I live for the epigraph. I just love what people choose and just things that like you would never think that when somebody pulls out a poem from the 1600s as their, you know, I'm just, I'm such a nerd. So I was like, this has to be perfect.
00:48:40
Speaker
I love it. And there's a part in the book too where, you know, when Giannis is being scouted and a lot of GMs are trying to say like, oh yeah, we all saw the potential there. But the fact is like, it's still a diamond in the rough thing. But you wrote that it took several weeks of coaxing to get Danny Ferry, who was with Atlanta, I don't know if he's still with Atlanta, but he was at Atlanta at the time.
00:49:05
Speaker
to talk about Giannis, about the draft for this book. So what was that process like to get him to speak openly? Because he was on the Giannis bandwagon and wanted to draft him as much as the Bucks did. Yeah, I was really stressing because I was like, you have a list of people you need. And there's people that you're like, absolutely need, need, need, need, red marker, need. And Danny was on that list.
00:49:34
Speaker
We played Bone Tag for like forever. And then finally I got to interview him off the record and I was filled with so much joy and so much dread because I was like, well, this could be it. I can't do anything with this. And then convincing him to go on the record. That's what I'm saying.
00:49:54
Speaker
A lot of this is persistence. There are people so much more talented than me, like writers that are just so good, but like the one thing I can control is my effort and I will not give up. And I will call. I have no shame about asking and trying and please, and I just want to hear you out. And you know what? Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but it did work in this case. And it genuinely was hard for him to talk. It really still upsets him.
00:50:23
Speaker
and you could understand why, I mean the Hawks would be champions by now. Yeah, getting to that, making those calls and that persistence, like I have tremendous anxiety when it comes to making cold calls. Even for people that I know, like I've, to just give you an example, like several years ago I wrote a book and one of my central figures was Calvin Burrell, this Kentucky Derby winning jockey.
00:50:49
Speaker
And I want to write another feature about him because he's in his 50s and he's still riding horses but like on shitty tracks. Like here's a guy who's won the Derby three times, rode the horse of the year in Rachel Alexandra in 2009.
00:51:05
Speaker
And he's on like a real backwoods tracks like he's a total fall from grace and he has that almost that old boxer storyline where I just feel like he's gonna probably just die on the racetrack someday like he'll fall and that'll be it.
Overcoming Anxiety in Journalism
00:51:22
Speaker
And I know this guy, and yet I still have this anxiety to call him and be like, hey, I'd like to touch base. There might be something here to – a feature for the next – you've been up to the last 10 years. So maybe with you, how do you handle getting on the phone and dealing with that if it is something, in fact, you deal with?
00:51:46
Speaker
Yeah, I mean all the time. I'm thinking, Pamela, what's her name? Koloff. Yeah, Pamela Koloff tweeted like last week, I've done this for 20 years and I still shake or something when I have to call. And I retweeted it because I was like, Pamela, yes. Oh my gosh, normalize it. 100%. Yep. I feel that way all the time, all the time. But I think it's just you have to, I know this sounds like really ridiculous, but I'm like,
00:52:12
Speaker
What can they do? Like, especially through the phone. Like, you can't come kill me. Like, I... What's going to happen? The worst thing that's going to happen is they're going to be like, you suck. I don't want to talk to you. And, you know, that's happened. So I don't... I just try to remind myself, like, honestly, the stakes are high, but they're low. Do you know what I mean? So I think I just steal myself, you know, and sometimes also people
00:52:42
Speaker
people have all kinds of reasons why they don't want to talk to you. And it might not have anything to do with the project, the book, could be just flat out self-consciousness. Like I don't want to, like I'm nervous. So I just have an enormous compassion for whatever reason they don't want to talk to me. And I think that allows me to see us less as like me versus you, you need, you know, I need you. It's more just like, I'm going to give it a go.
00:53:08
Speaker
No doesn't always mean no, it just means not right now, and we'll see later. That's my mentality.
00:53:16
Speaker
sliding in here for a classic aside. When I was taking notes on this episode, before I spoke to Mirren, I wanted to make note and ask her about the chapter headings of her Yannis biography. It's all, the entire book is one word, chapter heads. And I forgot to ask her during the conversation. And as I'm editing this podcast,
00:53:45
Speaker
I was just tweeting out that I'm like, this is going to be a gem. Like, this is just what a treat to be speaking with me. And it's just going to be such a treat for the listeners. And then I DM'd her on Twitter and I was just like, hey, you know, I, you know, I was kicking myself. I forgot to ask you about the one word titles and she offered
00:54:04
Speaker
to send a voice memo to me, record it herself, send it to me to answer that question because that was so important to her and so very on the forefront of her mind, this idea of one word titles. So basically that's the question I would pose if she was standing in front of me. So what was the importance of one word titles throughout this book?
00:54:26
Speaker
So I wanted to name each of the chapters one word because it really helped my process to try to distill what each chapter was going to be about. When I normally do my long form stories, that's the question I always ask myself before I even start writing. I say, what is this story really about? Right. It's not just a profile of a superstar.
00:54:44
Speaker
who's about to enter the draft or it's not just a profile about somebody who won MVP. It's a story about fame and grief or internet stardom or childhood. There's all these themes that are part of it. When I was doing the book,
00:55:01
Speaker
Essentially, a book is like 15 long forms in one. So I had to ask myself that exact question for each chapter. And I found that naming each chapter one word helped me really concretize what each one was going to be about. And it also helped me think very clearly about the multiple meanings that I wanted to convey in each chapter. So for example, hunger is not just about literal hunger, it's about desire and
00:55:25
Speaker
just enormous determination to succeed. The last chapter, Home, is not just about a physical home and architecture. It's about belonging and finding a space where you feel accepted. So that's sort of the reasoning behind why I wanted to do one word chapter titles.
00:55:41
Speaker
There's a moment in the book where, you know, Giannis is in the NBA and, you know, he's starting to become a star and his younger brother, Alex, is there watching him practice. And Giannis, he says, like, this is how hard work, this is how hard you need to work, like this. And he's showing him, like, this is the effort you need to put in.
00:56:05
Speaker
And that's so incredible and important, this idea of rigor and what it looks like and what it takes to succeed at a very high level. So in this game, you're performing at a very high level. So what does rigor and hard work look like to you in the way that Giannis was pointing out to Alex? Yeah, I mean, you mean like in terms of the writing game and stuff? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Like, 221 interviews is
00:56:35
Speaker
like really and it's not like a 10 minute interview it's like hours with people and and using a translator and being tired and doubting yourself and the rigor is like i'm dead but i'm gonna call one more person
00:56:50
Speaker
The rigor is like, God, this draft sucks, but I'm going to give it another hour. The rigor is, all right, Danny, you turned me down 10 times. I'm coming back for the 11th one respectfully. I got a job to do. The rigor is like, I'm going to be the most relentless, hardworking reporter. The writing is not always going to be good. I have shortcomings, but I am going to damn sure make sure that I work my hardest.
00:57:20
Speaker
And I think the rigor is also just never feeling complacent. I think people, a lot of my friends are like, why are you so intense about this? You're fine. You've made it. Everything's good. I'm like, do you know how it works? I could be gone tomorrow. It's very like, OK, so I wrote this book, but what happens the day after you get the best seller? You're just a person in the world. You've got to keep working. You've got to keep moving. So for me, the rigor is like,
00:57:50
Speaker
Yeah, but what's next? Okay, that story. Okay, but what's next? You know, like, what am I doing? Like, I'm already like, what, 2022 is like tomorrow. What, what do we got on site? You know, so I think the rigor, that's, that's actually why I really loved working on this project. I respect the oddest is work ethic. I respect his stubbornness. I respect his, you know, just utter lack of complacency. I struggle with perfectionism in the way that I think he does.
00:58:18
Speaker
I love that no matter what he accomplishes, he always works like it's about to all be taken away, and I think I'm the same way. Well, that's like a little grace note through the final third of the book, too, that what if we all went to sleep and woke up and we were back where we started? Right. That's my favorite. That's my favorite quote in the whole book, because even when he's at Chick-fil-A, he says something like, what if
00:58:45
Speaker
I got to hold the trophy because what if it's gone tomorrow?" I don't know what he said. And he was joking, right? But from working on this project, I'm like, oh, not really a joke, you know? Absolutely. Yeah. It really just echoes what you're saying, too, because, you know, the book comes out. It definitely gets that nice boost that, you know, they win the title. And so you're putting the finishing touches on this book and they win the championship. And it's just like, oh, my God, you're going to get that juice from it.
00:59:13
Speaker
But still, there's that thing like, yeah, but what about 2022? What next? I have to keep this going. Right. No, I know. I'm already like, well, what is book number two? I'm ready to roll. I spent the last two months trying to come up with book number two. Today, I had a talk with one of my mentors like, but what about this idea? Is that better than that idea? I'm already
00:59:42
Speaker
I'm past the honest world, like I'm ready. I want to do like 10 books or something crazy. I'm like ready to roll, you know? When you work so hard on a book or a story like I do, you put your whole mind, body, heart, soul into it. When it's over, it's over, you know? Like you're ready for the next.
01:00:05
Speaker
And to that point of having so many, maybe so many straws to choose from, but I love this scene that you recreate from the Honest Book when Kobe Bryant was giving him advice and he says, you always gotta be a kid.
Power of Curiosity in Storytelling
01:00:22
Speaker
And what great advice to approach things with fantasy, creativity, always asking questions and asking why, why, why. And that gets to the crux of the animating force of what it means to be an artist and a writer of these kinds of stories. So is that kind of the approach that you're taking as you're looking to take those next steps in your feature writing and of course your book writing? Yeah. Wow. I love that question so much. It's so true. Totally.
01:00:51
Speaker
I am a person that's very curious and I think constantly about things like that. Like, well, why did he go there? What happened there? And I just, there's so much stuff to find out, you know, and like, that's why I love books. You could, we could both start right now and try to read every single book in the universe. We'd never finish in our lifetimes. You know, there's just, there's too much good stuff out there. Like,
01:01:16
Speaker
I'm just obsessed with finding out more and curiosity is really, I learned that actually when I was at the Orange County Register, I was writing about like a 50 year old man that his life goal was to attend every MLB park and
01:01:35
Speaker
He's like, lives in this modest home in Yorba Linda out here. And, you know, I was at his house and it had been like an hour of asking about all his memories from the different ballparks. He's like, you probably have somewhere to be. Like, it's like, it's okay to leave, but you won't hurt my feelings. And I was like, dude, what are you talking about? This is so fun. Like, I want to hear more. And he was like really surprised that I was so curious about his life.
01:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I don't know. After that point, I was just like, damn, I am really curious. Like, I really, I really do want to know. And I think curiosity is, it colors everything. You know, it's, it's your willingness to say, no, I'll say seven more hours to talk about random ballparks of baseball stadiums. Okay. You know, and I love that.
01:02:20
Speaker
Oh, that's wonderful. And I wonder too, it seems like you're just, you know, you're really, as much as you've done, you're just getting warmed up and there's so many, you're just champing at the bit to tell so many great stories in sports, right? Longer stuff, more ambitious stuff. So like, what is your relationship at this point in your career to ambition?
Mirren's Storytelling Ambitions
01:02:41
Speaker
And maybe how does that compare to what it was a few years ago? You know, that's always something that kind of changes around us.
01:02:49
Speaker
I have so much ambition, it hurts. Like I, that has always been me, but it's changed in that my ambitions have changed. I mean, I used to wanna, I don't know why I was obsessed with this like, this idea of like, I wanna be the best ever. And it's like, that is so dumb. Like what does that mean, right? Like the best of what? Who decides that? Is there a, is there a sports writing authority that's gonna make that clear? You know, like, I don't know.
01:03:18
Speaker
That's not a worthy goal. So my ambition completely changed. Now my ambition is like, I want to tell the most interesting, fascinating stories of athletes and stuff that they go through on a human level. And I have the confidence now to pitch like the big stories, you know, like I've been after Naomi Osaka for two years. Like I have no idea if that'll ever happen, but damn sure I'm going to try. Luka Doncic, maybe even longer than two years.
01:03:48
Speaker
I want to profile Maasai at the Raptors. I am ready to tackle big stories. And now I just need a little bit of luck and people to give me some time out of their day. Oh, that's amazing.
01:04:04
Speaker
Well, Mirren, I want to be mindful of your time. This was such a fun conversation to get into the bones of what it is to go about this kind of work. So if people aren't already familiar with you, where can they find you online and get more familiar with your work? Yeah, well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I mean, I love nerding out on process, and this was just one of the coolest
01:04:28
Speaker
interviews I've had in a really long time. So thank you. Yeah, people could just find me on Twitter with minority writing clothes there. It's just Mirren Fader. And I spent a lot of time on my website, mirrenfader.com where you can find all of my
01:04:53
Speaker
Well, here's the acknowledgements section of this book. Thanks to Mirren, Fader. Oh my god, unbelievable. How great was Mirren? We didn't get into some of the origin story stuff that I typically dig into because I really wanted to do an autopsy on that Skaggs piece.
01:05:13
Speaker
So that's what that was about. That was awesome. That was really cool. It was a lot of fun. I hope you got a lot out of that. I know I did. I want to dedicate this episode to Kim H. Cross. You know what? This just hit me right this very second. You know how books have a dedication?
01:05:32
Speaker
I think I'm going to start dedicating each podcast to someone. I mean, why not? Priority is going to go to the Patreon crew. So as long as you sign up for at least tier one, you'll eventually have a podcast dedicated to you. Oh, that's brilliant. I like that. I'm going to do it. If you want an episode dedicated to you, become a Patreon.
01:05:54
Speaker
and become a patron, let's do this. Let's do this right. Become a patron at patreon.com slash cnfpod. Shop around, transcripts, coaching, editing. You can ask questions of guests. There's a lot of cool things you can do and also you have the knowledge that you're supporting the community. So those dollar bills go into the pockets of writers to make the audio magazine possible.
01:06:20
Speaker
Regarding Mirren, you can follow her on Twitter at MirrenFader. It's M-I-R-I-N-F-A-D-E-R. And she's mirrenfader.com. You can see lots of her clips, her body of work.
01:06:37
Speaker
This past week, I was lacking in focus and motivation. Not sure why, but gotta stay on brand. I shook out the mothballs on this reported essay about making maple syrup in upstate New York, harvesting stat and making syrup.
01:06:54
Speaker
Mary's things I really like, like science, brotherhood, and pancakes. So it was fun to dust it off. And right off the bat, right off the bat, it started reading. I could just see the veins bulging in this piece's forehead. It was like it was gonna burst. It's like the piece was trying to deadlift 500 pounds. It was in danger of herniating a disc.
01:07:19
Speaker
It's been fun to comb through it and kindly take out all those elements of trying too hard. I had a real howler of a line in there too and it was all the more funny because I just took out all the bullshit around it and so like I'm really just trying to sit back in the pocket and let the play unfold instead of panicking.
01:07:43
Speaker
I think it's got potential. I have no idea where it's going to go, but whatever. Last time I looked at it was in 2017, and the experience of the piece, of essentially the hardcore immersion reporting, I think it might have been 2013, so you're like a lot of distance there.
01:08:01
Speaker
eyeshadow and took part in this family and how they harvest sap in their maple grove or sugar bush. Great experience overall. It's awesome stuff. I have no idea what to do with the piece, but it's been good to go over it and just tell it to breathe and like, you know, cool it.
01:08:21
Speaker
Catch your breath, man, be cool, be cool. It's all gonna be okay. You've been on the bench for a few years and now it's time to put you back in the batting cages so we can work on a few things. You know you come to this podcast for a grab bag of mixed sports metaphors. Well, that's gotta be it, right? Well, one thing I do know, CNFers, if you can do interview, see ya.
01:09:21
Speaker
you