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Brian Johnson on Stoic Role Ethics (Episode 126)
775 Plays8 months ago
In this Stoa Conversation, Michael Tremblay speaks to Brian Johnson about Stoic roles ethics, methods of teaching, and how martial arts.
The start with the question: does martial arts improve character? What about other forms of physical training?
They then move to Stoic Role Ethics, especially the role ethics of Epictetus.
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Transcript
Introduction to Stoicism and Role Ethics
00:00:00
Speaker
And I think once we realize that that role ethics is just about trying to exercise good character and roles themselves are just the material upon which we exercise good character, role conflict becomes less frightening. Welcome to Stoa Conversations. In this podcast, Caleb Ontiveros and I discuss the theory and practice of stoicism.
00:00:26
Speaker
Each week we'll share two conversations, one between the two of us and the other will be an in-depth conversation with an expert.
Role of Martial Arts in Character Development
00:00:33
Speaker
In this conversation, I talk with Brian Johnson about the importance of roles in stoicism.
00:00:38
Speaker
Brian is a professor of philosophy at Fordham University and author of the authoritative book on role ethics and stoicism, appropriately titled The Role Ethics of Epictetus. This is a fun conversation where Brian and I get to the heart of stoicism through our shared passion for personal improvement, martial arts, and Epictetus. I hope you enjoy.
00:01:01
Speaker
Hi Brian, how are you doing? I'm doing pretty well. How are you? Good. Really excited to be talking today. I mean, I'm a huge Epictetus nerd and I'm excited to dig into it with you. A big fan of the role ethics of Epictetus. We've talked as well before and I think, yeah, you're someone whose work I admire and I'm excited to dig into your thinking today.
00:01:25
Speaker
I really appreciate that. Thank you. Ever since we met and I learned that you did Brazilian jiu-jitsu, I've always wanted to compare notes on martial arts and stoicism. As I mentioned, I wanted to start there. In particular, what has been on my mind is the cynic roots of stoicism. With cynicism, a key part of it is physical training.
00:01:51
Speaker
Right. I mean, you know, we have the kind of fancy stories about hugging statues or living outdoors, but you know, there, there are elements of physical training, even at petitics, you know, he has that idea about you put in on a hot day, you take a sip of cold water and you spit it out and you don't tell anybody.
00:02:11
Speaker
And even this word, you know, the kind of famous discourse on training, where, you know, the word is oscasis. And, you know, it's transitive training or exercise, but that's really the root of the later word, asceticism. Now, Epictetus is not going that far. He's certainly not an ascetic, you know, it's a misreading of the stoics. But it is clear that some kind of physical endurance
00:02:37
Speaker
training is important for even the stoic trainee. And Epictetus himself also, I think, reveals that in terms of his interest in sports, he thinks that sports figures are admirable and they offer great models for what it looks like to be a kind of good player of life. You know, he even likes the light about how Socrates knew how to play ball.
00:03:05
Speaker
And when I was in grad school, I got involved in doing karate largely as a stress relief. But I certainly was interested in martial arts as well. And
Martial Arts as a Metaphor for Stoicism
00:03:16
Speaker
my local instructor in Chicago was very well trained in the South African system, which aligned itself very much with the kind of heavy duty fighting of the Japanese approach to karate.
00:03:29
Speaker
And, you know, Japanese Sakurai, he also emphasizes that this kind of training and discipline makes you better in character. And my Chicago instructor thought that that was bunk. There's just no relationship whatsoever. And yet, I gather that in contemporary stoic movements, you know, one of my students went out to me that gibiculture is often very invested in stoicism. So it just got me thinking.
00:03:53
Speaker
Well, is there something there? Is there something there about physical training, actual physical training and character? And, you know, it's an open question for me. And I guess I'm wondering, you know, first, do you have thoughts about that? Cause I know obviously, you know, you wrote on, on training, but I have, I have very strong thoughts on this. Um, but I guess, I guess I'll toss it.
00:04:16
Speaker
I mean, the position I've taken on this, Brian, is that, you know, it's like a tool and like any other tool, it depends on how you apply it, but it's a particularly good tool because I think training requires you to have skin in the game. Like another way that I would think about it, as I say, you know, you could sit and think, well, I'm going to work on my character. This is me working on my character and I'm just kind of, I'm thinking and I'm reflecting and maybe you're doing that well. Maybe you're doing it poorly.
00:04:45
Speaker
But, you know, if you're in karate and someone punches you in the face or, you know, even you're doing your burpees before karate class or, you know, then you're, you're actually confronted with the impression, right? You're actually confronted immediately with the object that you're, you're trying to train yourself around. Maybe that's endurance, the pain. Maybe that's the embarrassment of losing or of other people in class. Maybe that's the, the discipline of becoming the kind of person that says, I can go to this.
00:05:12
Speaker
I can do this consistently even when I have excuses not to do it. Any sort of craft being analogous to developing ethics, when you learn how to get good at a craft, you learn how to get good at ethics, I think physical training is particularly good because it is very difficult
00:05:30
Speaker
And it deals with, I guess, types of impressions that are more natural, less kind of abstracted out. Like, again, physical pain, endurance. There's a big social aspect in my martial arts training. So I always like to think of martial arts for me as like the most difficult thing I could find to do that has almost no actual consequences. You're simulating fighting to the death.
00:05:59
Speaker
without actually fighting. So you're getting that kind of experience. That's been my experience. But interested if you, Brian, your sensei thought that it was bunk, but does that match your experience? Have you found that your karate training has helped your character?
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, so it's funny because I actually relooked him up. He now lives in actually New Zealand. He even has published a very controversial book called Pulling No Punches, which is kind of a character expose of some of the very famous people in Japanese karate and what, let's say, less than savory people they are.
00:06:38
Speaker
But I remember I would always argue back with him. And I think you, you've helped me already to clarify why I do think that it has something to offer. The first is, you know, exactly as you said, which is that
00:06:55
Speaker
you know, getting hit, you know, you have to confront pain. And at least one thing that, you know, my, my instructor would say is that certainly certain kinds of, of pains can knock a person down, you know, and you can't help it, you know, like there are certain punches in the jaw where the head will rock and the person loses their balance and there's nothing they can do. No amount of willpower overcomes that. But a lot of times it's surprising how once you get past the shock,
00:07:20
Speaker
of the pain, you realize you can just keep going and even be able to fight with when you're with, you know, get the wind knocked out of me. You can actually continue going on. And so I could see from a stoic angle that, you know, introducing a kind of aesthetic approach to your training that involves some difficulty, um, realizing that it's not all it's cracked up to be.
00:07:42
Speaker
that pain is worse in the anticipation than in the realization. And I think you're right. And then how you go about it is probably key. So if you just think that doing martial arts is going to make you a better person, that's a very passive image of how character improvement works. It doesn't work that way.
00:08:01
Speaker
It has to be how you approach it. And you are right that, I mean, now that I think of it, I mean, using an example of getting punched in the face, you know, you have this moment where, you know, how are you going to frame this to yourself? You know, are you going to, are you going to take it as anger or are you actually going to compliment your opponent as well? That was a good shot.
00:08:20
Speaker
I'm actually impressed. You pulled that off. Good shot. And then where the self-analysis should come in the form of like, how do I improve? How do I improve? And so I think you're right that it's helpful there. And then it is true, too, that I did notice that just the actual self-discipline, the self-discipline, when it took you right, there's always an excuse. There often was an excuse to not go to karate class.
00:08:50
Speaker
And the one way in which I worked around that was I would always choose meetings with my dissertation advisor on the day I knew I had karate class. So then I was, you know, after I got a bruising in person and I needed a place to vent, then I would go to karate class, do a lot of fighting and I would, and I would always lose. I was, you know, I discovered I had no gift for fighting, but the discipline of facing that terror every time did help me to kind of get back on the game the next day. Uh-huh.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah. And maybe you have some stories like this. I'm worried for people listening that they're going to say that this sounds really intense or bad, but my coach, um, who was also my father, right? So my, my family runs a martial arts school. I mean, my dad would just like be like, you're going to stand still and I'm going to like kick you in the stomach really hard. And you're just like stands. And it's like, what is that? But like expectation of an impression confrontation of it with an impression and then a forced descent, right? Of like, I'm going to now.
00:09:46
Speaker
cry, run away, fall down, or I'm going to maintain my position. And you're almost getting into asceticism at that point. If you were to do that all the time or to think that was the only way to develop, you know, I'm not saying that's the only way to develop your ability to confront impressions and make good use of impressions. It's not like you have to be whipping yourself or it's not the only way to do it, but
00:10:07
Speaker
That is a very kind of visceral confrontation with I am going to have a very intense experience shortly and I'm going to choose to accept that and then practice pushing through it as well. That's right. That's just funny that you say that too. Cause like, yeah, my instructor did the same thing where everybody got a free hit.
00:10:25
Speaker
And then you rotated and you know, it was like maybe a dozen people and they, whatever they wanted. I mean, like the only rule, cause like many of them were also professionals is don't break the nose and no green shots, but beyond that, you know, whatever they wanted to do. And then, you know, you took your 12 hits and then you got in line and then you, you delivered hits.
00:10:43
Speaker
against the next person. And you're right that I never thought of it that way, that it is about impression management. And, you know, Epidetus himself does talk about this, a version of it, of bringing up the image of death to yourself. And, uh, you know, that this is, obviously you're not confronting death, but you are confronting actual danger and potential bodily harm.
00:11:06
Speaker
My instructor himself broke his arm in class. In another case, someone had to go to the hospital because he obviously got a concussion. It happens. But the cycle was, you're right, of impression. And then it come down to, in a sense, how am I going to frame it? So I like that. So I think you're right that
00:11:32
Speaker
I think what I would say in relation to my old instructor, who again, I hugely respect, very passionate, very talented fighter. But if we think that physical training by itself makes us better, that's the mistake. But if you are after a kind of end, a character end, you're actually going about the physical training with a character end in mind, it actually can be very helpful.
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah, I always feel like, I don't know, I'm not a Kantian scholar or anything like that, but I always kind of paraphrase that Kantian passage about how, you know, the only thing good in itself is a goodwill because you don't want a very industrious, courageous, intelligent serial killer or a bank robber. Like that's not a good quality to have.
00:12:17
Speaker
So likewise, I think about with martial arts training, you know, Oh wow, this bully is very strong. His bully can throw a really effective punch or the bully has great conditioning and strength. That's not like, you know, you just, if you take a bully and you teach them how to fight, you've not, you've not made a good person. You've just made a bully that knows how to fight. Right. So, so you've got to, you've got to combine those.
00:12:40
Speaker
Right. I mean, any, any, any lessons that you've taken from martial arts that have, I guess, yeah, impacted your kind of the way you approach your ethical life. I think more directly, you know, I was writing my dissertation on Epictetus, which then became my book. And while, you know, doing Mark Floyd's training, you know, which again, I did
00:13:06
Speaker
In part, you know, apparently I was fascinated by it, but in part also I just needed a stress reliever. And in particular, I was working on the section of Epictetus' educational program. And watching the way in which a dojo operates, I think actually helped me a lot to understand Epictetus' educational program. And in particular, what I'm thinking of is this.
00:13:33
Speaker
Epictetus explicitly tells us that there are these kind of three topics. And the first topic is desire and aversion. The second one is appropriate action and roles. And then the third one is logic. And he tells us in multiple forms that that's the order he intends it. You have to do it. That's the order. And logic comes last. And a surprising number of scholars refuse to take Epictetus at his word.
00:13:57
Speaker
They insist that he must have meant that logic came first. And those then who take that view think that there's no significance in the kind of division that Epicatus has for the educational topics. And the argument that that side has is that, well, how can you even do stoicism unless you have kind of like cleaned up your rationality first?
00:14:24
Speaker
And Epictetus's response, which is directly in the text, is that you have to be able to master your passions first before it's even quiet enough to kind of perfect your reason.
00:14:36
Speaker
And what it got me thinking about then is that how would a training at Epictetus' school happen, given the fact that you had students at all sorts of different levels? And at least in a martial arts dojo, the way it obviously worked is by means of not only breakout groups, but the system, at least in Japanese martial arts, of what they call the senpai kohai system of the more senior and the junior who guides each other.
00:15:04
Speaker
And I realized that's actually an Epictetus. There's at least one reference to a more senior student giving reading assignments to the more junior students. And so I suspect that the way in which training happened at Epictetus's school is that Epictetus led work for everybody, but then there were also breakout groups. And then I also think that for the topics that he considered too advanced,
00:15:34
Speaker
the most junior students probably sat to the side and watched the more advanced students tackle it. And so there is a way in which you would still get, I think, if you enrolled in a behavior school, some exposure to logic only because you're, you know, in effect, the white belt sitting on the side watching more advanced students tackle it.
00:15:55
Speaker
And they're realizing it's much more difficult. And, uh, instead, you know, you as the white belt are going to be focusing on the basics, you know, rapitita sense, desire and aversion.
Comparing Education Systems: Stoic Schools vs Modern Universities
00:16:06
Speaker
And in karate, of course, it's just the basic of, you know, front kick front punch.
00:16:11
Speaker
front kick front punch, you know, and some various blank basic blocks over and over and over and over again. And only later are you going to get to fighting. And I associate logic and stones as a with a kind of fighting since it is dialectical training, right? And it's a big part of the dialectic is learning how to engage other people.
00:16:26
Speaker
It's not written down that this is how a dojo operates. It just happens to be how a dojo operates. And I don't think Epitetus, it ever occurred to Epitetus to write down how to put this kind of three stage topics into operation. Once in training in a dojo, it started to feel a lot like when I was seeing in outline form in Epitetus.
00:16:48
Speaker
This is really cool. I want to chew on this a bit longer. I also love this conversation selfishly because I feel like sometimes I make these analogies and then I go, it's just me. It's like if somebody else was really into music, would they view maybe music's not a good cause maybe there are some similarities, but you think you view everything through your lens, you know? So I worry that I'm, I worry that I'm biased. But what I mean, like what I'm taking from this is this idea of like.
00:17:10
Speaker
Well, there's this kind of, you know, these group of people together of varying levels who are building this intensive, this, this, this difficult transformative craft. Yeah. Oh, where have we learned how to do that? Well, well, they've been doing that for thousands of years in, in martial arts. So there's this system, right? One of.
00:17:27
Speaker
You know, that, that's somewhere where you have brand new people coming in off the street with, Oh, I know how to fight. You know, Oh, I know, I know how to throw a punch in a kick and they're bringing in their, their preconceptions, their thoughts. And then they, they, they have to get kind of, um,
00:17:43
Speaker
You know, they have to get integrated into the system. There's very senior people, there's instructors. And so if we want to look at how this would happen, maybe a dojo or a martial arts contact provides an analogy there. I've never thought of that before for the logistics of how that training might occur. Right. Yeah. That's really, I mean, that's really, really, that's a really great thought. And logistics is a good word. Actually, I think that that's, I wish I'd had that word when I was writing my book, because that really is, it boils down to.
00:18:13
Speaker
And, you know, I certainly have had also the parallel thought of, you know, uh, you know, how is it people think that you have to teach students logic before anything else? I want to say back, even though I know that these other people have been in the classroom, like haven't you worked with a 17 year old boy before?
00:18:31
Speaker
I mean, come on. You've got to kind of whip them into shape first before you can even get there. But yeah, I think the logistics of it involved much more older students guiding younger students. And there is actually a very critical moment where Epiketus takes a more senior student to task for having given too difficult an assignment to a junior student and takes that more senior student to task for laughing.
00:19:01
Speaker
and Epithenus kind of castigates him for that. That was my experience of a dojo too, that the kind of mid-level students or the senior students are supposed to show a kind of regard for shepherding along with the more junior students. Well, I have many thoughts about this, but one initial thought is like,
00:19:20
Speaker
Is there something wrong with the way we're doing a university education? You're a professor. Is something being lost now by having people being all the same year, all the same kind of class, and you don't have that experience of having a variety of levels? Oh, I get to re-explain it to some of my junior that helps me understand. What do you think? Oh, that's a good point.
00:19:43
Speaker
Well, let's hope nobody at my work seems to say that. But my big fear is that although we pitch ourselves in academia as continuation of Plato's Academy and Aristotle's Lycia,
00:20:00
Speaker
We're actually not, we actually look a lot like the sophists that they were trying to destroy. I mean, we charge very high tuition, uh, for a kind of very rigid set of topics. And, um, you know, the way in which, you know, the kind of classical, you know, Plato and Aristotle model work is more like a research institutes. And, uh, so maybe our graduate school is closer to that. Um, and then I think that the kind of training that Epicetus was doing is probably rather unlike.
00:20:30
Speaker
anything we're trying to do in education at all.
00:20:35
Speaker
Maybe certain grade schools are trying to do something like this. But Epictetus, I think, really was concerned about character development. And he saw the lessons that he was giving in stoicism as guiding that. And in that sense, again, as memory serves, you've written about this. I think Epictetus was inspired by what Aristotle has to say about the training components opposed to the teaching components.
00:21:04
Speaker
And in particular, I think if we were concerned about, cared about, we would focus much more on training as opposed to teaching. And so I think what we're doing at school is a far cry from what Epitetus was imagining.
Community Support and Practical Applications in Stoicism
00:21:23
Speaker
It breaks my heart to say that, but I think that that is the actual truth.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah. And then when you say that, I think it's, I think I agree. And then when you didn't say that, I think, well, where's the closest we can get to that? And then it brings me back to this, it brings you back to the martial arts metaphor, right? A place of people who are coming together from different backgrounds to develop a craft and teach each other. I suppose that one other analogy I've wondered about people kind of coming together is the way in which.
00:21:52
Speaker
up all up synonymous seems to operate, you know, you know, I'm not involved in a, but I've been, you know, I had a friend in a drag to some meetings and I was sort of struck by some of what I saw. And that is like you say, kind of people coming together to kind of work on themselves and to speak candidly. And there is also a kind of mentorship that happens there too.
00:22:10
Speaker
And so sometimes I wondered, you know, would there be like an AA equivalent one could come out with about one's character development? You know, you just come together in a room and like, these are my ethical challenges this week. I'm really struggling. This is what I'm thinking. And then you might have the same role as an AA of no crosstalk, meaning no one could comment on your story unless you ask them, you know, you invite comments.
00:22:31
Speaker
you know that somehow just processing it out loud is itself already a way of kind of like working on oneself and only with one's direct mentor would you work on your character.
00:22:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's great. One thing about Alcoholics Anonymous, what I do know about it, I also value this emphasis on what's pragmatic. There seems to me to be this focus on, look, what works and this, I'm not sure if it's a flexibility. I'm not sure that's the right word for it, but you almost work backwards. You're almost like, what works? And then we're going to kind of codify that instead of we're going to make assumptions
00:23:13
Speaker
You know, in my work now, so I work as a consultant now and we talk a lot about human centered design and this idea of having the people who are actually participating in the process or who would, you know, who are being asked to do the thing contribute, like, well, we want to learn what they're, what they think they have the best insight, right? And so there's this idea of having, like, so for example, the 17 year old boy example connects to that, right? Is this idea of.
00:23:40
Speaker
Well, no, you've got to start with logic because that seems the most intuitive to me as a 60-year-old professor. And it's like, well, it doesn't really matter what's intuitive to you or what you've reasoned. What matters is what's going to be effective for that 17-year-old coming in, not caring about philosophy and kind of leading with what's practical. And that's one thing that I've always
00:23:59
Speaker
a little tangent here, but one thing I've always admired about Epictetus, I think Epictetus's school is almost crafted by this experience of actually working with students, of actually debating people who disagree, having his lessons not go over well, and then maybe changing his approach to do what goes over well. And I think that kind of
00:24:19
Speaker
So I like, you know, at the start of the conversation, I was talking about how you've got to learn from trial and error and martial arts is this great way to say, well, I think my, I think my technique works. Oh no, it didn't work. I got, I got, you know, I got punched instead of blocking my block didn't work. If you're a teacher, you're, you're also getting that feedback about your teaching while my teaching worked. I'd help that student. Oh, my teaching didn't work. It didn't help the student. I, therefore I need to change my teaching. It's not the student that's wrong. And that kind of focus on, on meeting people where they're at. Um.
00:24:49
Speaker
A lot of ideas there, but that's the idea. I think that's one thing that I think A gets really right is that kind of like, well, what works? We're going to meet people where they're at, and we're going to figure out what is effective for their current level of progress, which is something I think Epictetus thinks a lot about.
00:25:05
Speaker
I think I agree with that. And side note, by the way, you know, I will also bet, you know, I do just love the original Karate Kid and I love signing to my students. You know, it is sort of, you know, and, you know, I even like the documentary called The Real Mystery Miyagi, which I highly recommend.
00:25:22
Speaker
Um, and it's, it's about the guy who plays the, um, uh, stunt double, but he was actually part of the original people who tried to bring karate to the United States. And apparently Pat Morita's character is actually based on his personality style. But anyway, you know, I do say to my students, Yagi's line about, you know, there's no such thing as a bad student, no, they've had teacher truth that that's, you know, there actually are bad students, but you do have to approach your teaching as though it's all your fault.
00:25:50
Speaker
And if you do approach it that way, it goes way better. And, you know, just, and that is a very appetitian lesson, which is what's up to me and what's up to me as my approach to teaching. And I also agree with you. I think you're right. And this is a little bit under, underplayed is that, you know, at Epitetus does have a bit of.
00:26:11
Speaker
a pragmatic touch to him in that, you know, he has that famous line where he says something to the effect of like, look, if I had to be deceived in order to have the kind of right view about tragedy and externals, I'll take the deception.
00:26:27
Speaker
So that's a very surprising thing for Sowak to say. And also, there is a line also where Epictetus talks about how he's aware that visitors to his school, he had a constant stream of visitors, would make fun of him for the fact that he speaks like a barbarian and he commits what the Greeks called solacisms, which is kind of a fancy way of saying like grammatical errors.
00:26:53
Speaker
But in researching that term solicism, it turns out, even though the Stoics were famous, advocates of propriety and speech, both Zeno and Chrysippus, said it's perfectly great to speak ungrammatically if that's the more effective way to speech.
00:27:11
Speaker
And I think you're right that that also crops up in epigetus. Epigetus will adopt the mode of dialectic that works best rather than that's kind of top down. So I think you're right that he was experimenting. And I do think that his threefold division, beginning with desire and aversion first.
00:27:30
Speaker
grew out of him trying to work with, you know, young men. And he even gives us a taste of his failure. There's one, uh, part where he talks about trying to do street side preaching and how badly that went. And he's trying to imitate this almost Socratic style discourse. And he admits they would punch him, you know, and he's like, you know, I used to have a taste for this, but I can't do it anymore. And I also think it was that ubiquitous learning that, uh, dialectic has to meet somebody where they're at, just as you say.
00:27:59
Speaker
The one other angle, obviously, on hepatitis in martial arts was, of course, the fact that, you know, in a well-run dojo, everybody has to play their role.
00:28:12
Speaker
And your belt is the marker of the role. And since they have certain obligations, senior students have certain obligations, and junior students have certain obligations. And the dojo is most effective when everybody plays their part. And I felt like an impetus likes the analogy of the kind of cosmic city. And there is a way in which a dojo is like a mini city.
00:28:38
Speaker
And, um, I felt like it made very clear to me. What role ethics looks like, but also the way in which, um, although some of the norms of, you know, how one inhabits those rules, you had to learn, you know, whether you bow, you know, like, like some, some traditions are very insistent that you bow right. Even before you go on the dojo floor, others don't have that, that level of formality.
00:29:03
Speaker
But still how intuitive it was to just understand, well, junior students, senior students, and chapter. And Appetitus has that line about how, well, if you just think about this designation or name or whatever, it'll be pretty clear to you what you've got to do. And so I think Marshall has also helped me just thinking about rural ethics more generally.
00:29:27
Speaker
Yeah, that's something that I've personally wrestled with quite a bit. So interested in your view on it, because for those listening that haven't trained in martial arts, it's very codified. As you said, it's very codified. You walk into a room and you immediately know through a visual signal, kind of like the military in that sense, I guess. You immediately know through a visual signal who is your senior and who is your junior.
00:29:51
Speaker
And then you have a certain set of social obligations towards your seniors and a certain set of social obligations towards your juniors. And that's not necessarily a negative thing, right? Like you might have an obligation to your juniors to mentor them or an obligation to point out to them if they're making a faux pas, right? If the white belt doesn't know to bow and you might have, you know, it's your job to tell the white belt that you should bow here, or, you know, you should talk to the coach in this way or the sensei in this way.
00:30:18
Speaker
Um, so, and then there's a certain obligations to the more senior people, the higher belts, um, whether that's to, you know, where you line up before you being in class, whether, you know, in jujitsu, a lot of it is whether you move out of the way in sparring, whether you ask them to spar or you let them ask you to spar things like this. One sense, there's almost this Western. Criticism of this. And I felt this in martial arts, I felt.
00:30:46
Speaker
The American style is to say, that's all dumb. You know, like belts are dumb. You know, we, we should, we should get away with the formality. The formality is, is silly. It's hindering. And in some ways I think it's right because the criticism is that martial arts is about performance, but it's all the thing we've been talking about. It's about, can you actually put into practice what you, what you said you can do? Can you actually block?
00:31:11
Speaker
the punch or and when when you codify these roles and you say well uh i have to let this person be me just because they're a higher belt or i have to show respect just because they're a higher belt it makes it feel like it's it can feel at its worst like it's an arbitrary role because like it's an arbitrary type of respect but i've been thinking as i get older too about how there's there's a kind of there's a kind of value to a codification as well well i guess what was your relationship with
00:31:37
Speaker
karate rolls. I mean, did you, did you think it was, did you, did you like that? Did you think there were some parts of it that was, that was frustrating. Any examples like that? That's a good question. In fact, you know, so I've been reading my instructors tell a book and you know, I think the dark side of that kind of hierarchical codification is bullying.
00:32:00
Speaker
And of course, that's a national problem in Japan, as I understand it. I'm not an expert on Japan, but bullying is a serious problem. And it really makes it easy for the bullies to get away with it. Because if your senior is bullying you, well, you're supposed to put up with a hazing.
00:32:17
Speaker
and he was supposed to endure it. And if you don't, he's simply going to get his other friends to bully you as well, too. And so that, I think, is a very sinister application of it. But on the other hand, again, my Chicago instructor, again, a very capable fighter, he was not a fan of hierarchy either. And his big focus was just, can you fight well?
00:32:45
Speaker
But I will say, you know, my instructor was very rule bound about two things. One, seniors should never take advantage of juniors. Obviously, you should fight better. So he would estimate your fighting ability and then fight one step harder than you.
00:33:04
Speaker
But he would never take advantage of you. So you always lost, but he would not bully you. And I even remember once we had a guest come from another dojo, he was bullying his, you know, bullying the students junior at him. And my instructor was very angry. And my instructor just said, okay, fine. Let's, you and I will just have kumite now.
00:33:24
Speaker
And my instructor trounced him and then the guy tried to tap out. And when my instructor got very mad and he says, you don't come into my dojo, do this to my students and then tap out of a fight. And at the same time, he was also very stripped that you had to at least fight fair within the rules. And when the fight's over, the fight's over. It's done.
00:33:45
Speaker
And what I realized is that that kind of rigidity made me feel very safe. And so, I mean, we're, we're hitting full contact, you know, we get, we get bloody mouths. You know, one time I got kicked so hard, you could just see the shape of the guy's toes in the form of the bruise on my chest. But as soon as the fight was over, all is back to normal. And that, you know, it's certainly not that way in a street fight. And so I felt the rigid rules made it again, made me feel very safe.
Contextual Roles in Roman Society and Epictetus' Adaptations
00:34:15
Speaker
then it even made me feel safe to take some risks and learn.
00:34:20
Speaker
Um, that makes it so in the same way, like, um, you know, if you're on a gun range, you really want to follow the rules very precisely, you know, when you head off the gun to somebody else, I mean, you know, I've only gone shooting once. That's not my cup of tea, but I appreciated this, the strict rules that, you know, you're supposed to, to, you know, not point the gun at anyone, even if you're convinced it's empty, you know, you're supposed to show that you put on the safety. It was all these very strict rules. And you do that so that people are safe.
00:34:49
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I love that idea of obviously fluidity has an advantage and obviously a rigidity or like a clarity of rules and rules has an advantage. And I'm getting here in kind of, in kind of high risk environments, there needs to be high trust and there needs to be a kind of a clarification of.
00:35:10
Speaker
I guess the rules so you can safely play within those. If you're playing with Lego, it can be fluid. You're just sitting down. You're just playing around. But if now you're in a fight, you go, okay, how do we stop this? How far does it go? What are the rules in place? So that's one advantage where there's rules. I mean, that goes back to the military example that you can start.
00:35:33
Speaker
That's an example where having clear roles is very, very important. Even if you're losing some of the value to creativity, even if you're losing that creativity, because it's such a kind of high risk environment. So what you were saying was that.
00:35:50
Speaker
This was your, as you were immersed in the world of Epictetus, as you were going through grad school, this was a chance to be in an environment that had a lot of codified rules and roles and kind of experience, I mean, not experience, but kind of reflect on what Epictetus was talking about as you were training. That's right. And actually, even as you're saying this now, I think we lose sight of the fact, Epictetus, although he's Greek,
00:36:17
Speaker
He's in a Roman context, and that's a very codified society, very codified. I mean, although we don't know for sure, there's a chance Epictetus had to spend the rest of his life wearing the little white beanie indicating that he was an ex-slate.
00:36:35
Speaker
Now, as I understand it, classicists are unsure whether the putting on that beanie was just a symbolic thing at the moment of manumission or whether or not it was lifelong to indicate that you were an ex-slave. But they were well aware of who was naturally born free, who was not born free. And I think you even see Epictetus' own awareness of social hierarchy and the way in which he speaks to certain guests.
00:37:04
Speaker
So for example, when he has that magistrate come in discourse 111, who ran away from his sick daughter, Abicatus is surprisingly respectful. I mean, it's a very, first of all, it's a very kind of beautiful, compassionate conversation, but he's very respectful. Whereas if he gets some young hothead who's like, I want to study the logic of Chrysippus, Abicatus is perfectly happy telling this kid to go hang himself.
00:37:29
Speaker
I was quoting Epictetus the other day, or I was reading it out and it was like, you wretch, you slave. And I was like, okay, I'm trying to, I'm trying to say an inspirational quote here. And it's getting a little, uh, it's not, it's not how I feel the people listening. That's just, that's just that. Well, it's one of my favorite features about him. I mean, the ex slave calling you a slave, that that's, that's pretty potent. Oh yeah. That's pretty potent. That's pretty potent. But he does still, I think take seriously, you know, how he should speak to people relative to their social wreck.
00:37:59
Speaker
Um, and, and I, I, I think it's because of his rec. Like I gather that Musonius Rupus, his own teacher, who was a knight, you know, just, just below, below the highest class. Musonius could get away with a lot more than Epictetus could not, you know, like Musonius even had this kind of confrontation with the military telling them to throw away their arms and take up the way at peace. And damn near got himself killed. Like the soldiers apparently wanted to hack him up.
00:38:26
Speaker
And Epictetus I think knows that there's no way as an ex-slave that he could get away with speaking to people like that. So what this makes me think of,
00:38:38
Speaker
So when I teach role ethics, and you're the person to ask about this, when I teach, I put you on the spot. When I teach role ethics or talk about it, it's often framed in kind of an ethical dimension, right? There's this ethical responsibility.
00:38:57
Speaker
But there's almost, and I mean, and the ethical might blend into this, but you're almost, we were talking about almost felt pragmatic. It was almost, you know, the smooth flow of life, which is to say.
00:39:10
Speaker
Do you think this emphasis on role ethics is particular to Epictetus' time and would look quite a bit different in today's time? Besides just the logistics of what it means to be a husband and wife has changed, what it means to be a father has changed, do you think that
00:39:28
Speaker
we obviously obviously that human role kind of rational being that stays the same but this particular emphasis yeah what do you think about that do you think that's to his time and place or do you think that's something he would hold for us just as strongly
00:39:44
Speaker
I think for us just as strongly, I mean, I definitely agree that there is a way in which Epictetus, as is true of anything here, is reflective of this time and place. To me, the most dated aspect of Epictetus is his conception of gender roles. And I was telling my girlfriend about this, that my own dissertation advisor did not want me to write about Epictetus in an evaluative way.
00:40:10
Speaker
And so I had this point about how Epictetus's comments about women's bodies should be smooth, and men could have beards. And I referred to it as dated advice. And I remember when I got back that chapter, she had xed out the word dated. So she didn't want any evaluation at all. But to me, those are the moments when Epictetus feels very much of his time and place. But I do think, on the other hand,
00:40:40
Speaker
you know, most of us do actually process the world in terms of our roles. You know, I noticed, you know, I myself was, was, you know, before I was even working on opportunities, you know, I thought of myself in terms of being a brother and, you know, a son and a student and a teacher. And it's very clear what those obligations are. I mean, even right now, you know, you know, in our setup, I was relating how I'm associate chair.
00:41:06
Speaker
The obligations of that are pretty clear. You know, I'm a professor, the obligations of that are pretty clear. And so I do find that part timeless. I mean, in terms of whether I see it as pragmatic, at least the way I've thought of it, what they say about algebra versus calculus.
00:41:23
Speaker
Like apparently there are certain math problems that could be solved by both algebra and by calculus. And you'll get the right result in both cases. But if you do it the algebraic way, it's a long, long cumbersome route. But if you do it the calculus way, suddenly the solution is very, you arrive at the solution very elegantly.
00:41:42
Speaker
And I think that Epictetus's role ethics is like that relative to, say, the ethics of Zeno and Chrysippus. If you want to do these kind of deductions about the plan of nature and what's natural for a human being and even doing some kind of prognostication of the future,
00:42:04
Speaker
You could do that and you'll, you'll arrive at the right result of what you should do in this moment, or you can do the more elegant route, which is, well, I'm a brother. What should a brother do at the latter part? I do. Do you find timeless? And I think most people actually processed the world that way.
00:42:21
Speaker
Well, I think that's beautifully put. Um, I mean, to simplify it a bit, dumb it down for myself since I don't know. You know, you can get the same result with math with multiplication. You can add a bunch of times or you could just multiply, but the idea you were saying that much stuck.
00:42:38
Speaker
The, the idea was like, yeah, you can start as, you know, Christmas, you can, you know, understand the nature of the universe and you can make us a set of steps and inferences to get down to what you should do in this particular moment. But there's a way to get there with just a lot less steps. I think that's really, that's really beautiful.
00:42:56
Speaker
So one question that we get a lot from, I struggle with, and we get a lot from people engaging with Epictetus is this idea of, um, how we know our roles. Um, I know this is something you, something, you know, you, you've discussed, but it, do you have a kind of a succinct way of putting that because there's this, um,
00:43:20
Speaker
Yeah. What do you say to somebody who goes, okay, that's all good and fine, but what are my roles? What is my kind of position and when some of them conflict, which do I know which to take up? Yes. Okay. So let me take the first question first. I mean, I think, you know, at least what I argue for Epictetus is that most fundamental is going to be your abilities.
00:43:48
Speaker
And one angle that I've actually found helpful here, when I teach a business ethics class, I begin that class actually with a non-traditional subject, which is the subject of career choice. And I make students read this book by a math computer science guy who I really like named Cal Newport. And Cal Newport actually has a bunch of books out, including one book on digital minimalism that ends with a hymn to Harrison.
00:44:13
Speaker
believe it or not. But Newport, one of his early breakout books was called, So Good They Can't Ignore You. And he argues that this American Western idea of following your passion is the worst career advice ever.
Modern Relevance of Epictetus' Teachings
00:44:26
Speaker
And that if we actually study what gives people satisfaction in their career, it's becoming, as in the title of the book, So Good They Can't Ignore You. You get really good at your job. So for example, when we study long-term administrative assistance,
00:44:42
Speaker
Apparently, there are lots of secretaries out there who are immensely satisfied with their job. And they're satisfied with their job because they've gotten really good at it. And also, they're satisfied with their job because another feature of work that makes a lot of people happy is just connectedness. They like the people they work with. And I teach this to my students because I did so really rile up the American students. My students coming from the capital of China are like, yeah, of course, you're going to do what you're going to do.
00:45:12
Speaker
And, but it also starts to me as very appetite advice, which is you've got to figure out what you're, you're good at. And, uh, so focusing on what you can do well, I think is important and everything that's even says that it's like, if you focus on what you want to do as opposed to what you can do well, you probably miss out.
00:45:30
Speaker
on doing a role you could have done well and probably make a disaster of something else. So if I had decided to try my best to play professional baseball, I never would have become a professor, and I also would never have become a baseball player. And so I think his personal advice is on your talents. And then I secondarily, he does take very seriously, where are you situated?
00:45:56
Speaker
And one aspect of that for Epictetus that also has just not got enough press is that in the fragmentary evidence testimony about the life of Epictetus, there is actually one report that late in life Epictetus adopted a child and he adopted a child that was going to be exposed.
00:46:18
Speaker
And Epictetus thought that that was wrong. And so he did it. And by exposed, you mean like abandoned? Abandoned to die. That's right. Yeah. I mean, since they didn't have, you know, easy ways to do abortion, you know, unwanted pregnancies were handled by means of exposure. You know, that's even what gets the whole Oedipus cycle started, right? He was supposed to be exposed and he was then given away to somebody else.
00:46:44
Speaker
So Epictetus takes on this child and then even hires a nurse to help them care for the child. And there, I think Epictetus is taking very seriously that, you know, as socially situated beings, we're going to just have some roles that come our way, whether we like it or not. And, you know, you're going to have to take those on.
00:47:06
Speaker
But I think that the hard question, and then finally he does make some room for choice. Sometimes even within those constraints, you're going to have choices that you can make between say types of athletes. And certainly I felt drawn to teaching, but teaching takes many, many different forms. As a consultant, you're doing a version of teaching already. You're doing a version of teaching already.
00:47:31
Speaker
But I think that the difficult question then is the question of, as you say, conflict of rules. And I think that Epictetus has two things that he can say. One is that obviously we should never do what is immoral.
00:47:56
Speaker
Um, and so if it looks like one role is asked, is putting us at a pressure to do something that, that is immoral, you know, say I'm in the military and I've been given a command that, um, you know, I can sit, you know, violates various international treaties. Then I shouldn't do it. You know, so in one sense there, I've got a role conflict between my role as a citizen and my role as a soldier. Um, and so, and you know, doing something that's immoral is contrary to my role as a human being.
00:48:26
Speaker
Having said that, it looks like, and this is something I only came across very recently, just so you know. Yeah, I've been reading a later author, Alice Gellius, who wrote like the Attic Knights, and it's this collection of all these little tales, and also a lot of grammar, and that's pretty pointless.
00:48:45
Speaker
But there's a couple of moments in there where he is clearly cribbing from a stoic. And in particular, he takes up the question of conflict of roles. And it's an interesting scenario where the question is raised of, what is your appropriate obligation? And he uses the actual stoic term, kathaykan, and kathaykan tau.
00:49:12
Speaker
you know, which you could translate maybe duties or appropriate actions or incumbent acts or whatever. And the particular scenario is the case of who should sit first. And apparently, you know, like if a magistrate enters a room, the magistrate is supposed to sit first, right? You know, because he's kind of preeminent citizen, say, relative to the other Roman citizens.
00:49:38
Speaker
But you also have the rule then of the father, when the father enters the household room and people are going to sit down, the father gets to sit first. So what do you do then if the son is the magistrate? Right? Who sits first?
00:49:56
Speaker
And the suggested solution is that, well, it depends on which context. In the household, the father should sit first, because that's in private. So that's the operative role. And that in public, the son should sit first, because then the magisterial role is higher.
00:50:15
Speaker
And my suspicion is, again, because it uses stoic language, my suspicion is that, since Alice Gallius is cobbling from all sorts of earlier stuff, I suspect he's cobbling from some stoic source that's now lost to us, that was raising the question. And my suspicion is that these stoics had the hope that with enough ingenuity, you might find a way to thread the needle.
00:50:38
Speaker
I mean, certainly, you know, there may be scenarios where you can't thread the needle, in which case you're gonna just have to make a choice. But I think that the sox did have the hope that with enough creativity, you would be able to find a way to stitch together, you know, come into both roles, you know, be the good son and the good magistrate.
00:51:00
Speaker
Yeah, that was really well put. I think we also have a tendency to want our ethical systems. I think there's this kind of utilitarian tendency to be like, no, no, you know, give me the, I want to put an input and I get a clear output and I want to think as little as possible, uh, about what's complicated or unique or particular to this situation. That's right. Um, it also reminded me of our, um, while I'm our source discussion.
00:51:26
Speaker
you know, where I trained jujitsu, there will often be fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, like members of the family. But you know, maybe the, the, the, the, the son starts training, he really likes it, he gets quite good. And then the, the dad of mom decides to start training, you're getting that exact dynamic, right? Where
00:51:45
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Person is more senior in the martial arts room, but that doesn't mean you start. That doesn't mean, you know, just because I'm a black belt and you're not now, you know, I run the house when we get home kind of thing, right? It's within the particular context. That makes sense to me. Um, and the last part, just cause you said so many interesting things, I was keeping a mental track of that thing about choice. I was watching this video.
00:52:09
Speaker
It was basically LeBron James playing football in high school and he was just doing a great job. And it was just like, yeah, if you're LeBron James, you get to choose very clearly, you're going to be an athlete and you get to choose if you want to do basketball or football. And that's fine. You get that little, you get that. Yeah. Which, which of these do you actually enjoy more because you're clearly meant to do either of these very, very well. Um, but there's, but there, there is that room for choice once you've narrowed in on your particular talent. So.
00:52:36
Speaker
Yeah, those are all unrelated, but what I was thinking of as you were talking, because those were good points. And I think as long as, I guess, to sum that up, as long as you're okay with it being a bit messy, there's not that much of a problem here. You pay attention to your particular scenarios. And if you're not able to do that yet, that's probably from just needing... Going back to the math example,
00:53:02
Speaker
Maybe you're going to have to do some math on the paper. Maybe it's going to have to be a little bit more complicated steps than you want it to be, but you should be able to arrive at something that makes sense. It's very rarely where like there's nothing, there's no clear answer here.
Role Ethics and Character Building Over Material Gain
00:53:15
Speaker
Right, right. And also, I think it is worth remembering. I mean, I like your critique of utilitarianism, and I'm very hip to that. You know, it does expect a kind of mathematical result. But also, I think Epictetus would remind us that
00:53:33
Speaker
you know, we shouldn't be focused on a particular result, you know, because we shouldn't be worried about things like money or power or property. And so, you know, he has the example of the two brothers fighting over an inheritance.
00:53:50
Speaker
And, you know, we might even be able to dream up a scenario where it seems like the roles are in conflict, where it's the say junior brother who's demanding the entire estates and the junior brother should be obeying the senior brother.
00:54:06
Speaker
and the senior brother could say something like, well, you're not following your roles, and now you're putting him in a conflict here because my role is supposed to entitle me to the decision about who gets the estate, et cetera. But I think if Appetit has entered into that scenario, he would say that
00:54:25
Speaker
you know, as he says in Discards 1-2, if you're fighting over particulars that way, you've actually already lost. And, you know, in one sense, even if the older brother is due more respect, you know, by his, his conception of royal ethics, on the other hand, nothing is really lost if the senior brother says, you know what, I'm out. I'm, I'm, you know, my character is not for sale.
00:54:48
Speaker
I'm not going to actually fight over these particulars. I'm not going to fight over the estates. And I think once we realize that role ethics is just about trying to exercise good character and roles themselves are just the material upon which we exercise good character, role conflict becomes less frightening.
00:55:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that's so great. So if you're the kind of person that says, okay, you know, I really want this money, how should we split up this money? Okay, let's look to our roles now. You've kind of gone about the situation backwards. That's what you're saying. And instead of, okay, I have this role, I live this role. Now, in actualizing this role well, I've now encountered this money to split up. And I'm not leaning on role ethics.
00:55:38
Speaker
after I've already encountered a kind of external problem as a way to solve it and kind of get what I want out of it. Um, is that, yeah, that's what you were saying. Yeah. And then that also, what's going to be more important is your humanity. Yeah. And as a human being, you should not be obsessed with external goods of some form or another. Yeah. And it's a good reminder because we, we, we can often, there's so many practical benefits of stoicism you can get. So it's such a good.
00:56:08
Speaker
It's such a good mechanism for navigating stressful or complex situations. Yeah. Sometimes even myself, I forget to just kind of take a step back. Well, it's like that, it's like that. Discipline of desire thing, right? If you end up in the second area and you're trying to, you're trying to navigate your roles, but you know, if you didn't get your desire, right. No, no, no matter of doing well in that second area is going to help you. If you didn't, if you didn't progress them in order the way I think about it.
00:56:33
Speaker
Right. That's right. That's right. And also, I mean, even to kind of tie it back to the, you know, issue or the example of AA. You know, as I understand it, you know, there's been some work on it. You probably already know this already of trying to trace the genealogy, if you will, the so-called serenity prayer.
00:56:52
Speaker
Right. And then I think it's believed that, you know, at least the most recent figure is probably Martin Blooper, but he himself was probably picking up from Epictetus, you know, this idea of what's up to you, what's not up to you. And that's it. And how powerful it is to draw that division and then just let go of what's not up to you. And, you know, I was even thinking about that this morning and debating, you know, talking with my girlfriend about, you know, I've got more work to get done this week than I could possibly do.
00:57:22
Speaker
And, you know, that seemed like a moment for Epictetus, you know, and also I probably have some real conflict here too, you know, which role has kind of went out and I would love to find a way to throw that needle. Um, uh, but I'm, I don't know if there's a way to throw that needle. And so, uh, but I think that at the end of the day, all that's going to matter is doing what I can and then everything else is just not up to me.
00:57:47
Speaker
Yeah. And that's, that's really to me, what, what stoicism, I mean, so this is what offers me so much, but this idea of being excellent and also calm, that's always what I've admired as the ideal. And I think martial arts is like that too, right? These people like a person is an excellent fighter, but they're not, they're not nervous or they're not, they don't freak out when they win. They don't freak out when they lose, but they still fought really well. Like that balance of like, cause for me, when I don't care, at least when I was younger, when I didn't care, I wouldn't try.
00:58:16
Speaker
And then if I, if I tried, I cared. And so that idea, like, as you said, I'm going to do as much work as is possible for me this week. And that's going to be the best I can do. And the stuff past that, that I can't do, I'm going to, I'm going to accept is such a, such a impressive balance to achieve. Right. That's true. I mean, even the way you were, you weren't eventually think of like, you know, at least what I've read about, you know, so-called Zen archery. Um, and.
00:58:45
Speaker
I don't know if I pulled that off, like somehow I'm supposed to aim at the aim as a target, but not care about hitting the targets. And I think that's, um, um, and so, yeah, I'm trying to, well, that's the real needle that that's that difficult to threat. Yeah, totally. Um, I'm curious, anything that you
00:59:08
Speaker
Any part, so I mean, you've mentioned throughout the conversation, you know, this doesn't get enough attention or I wish people emphasize this more. Any part of a role ethics in general or stoicism more broadly that you think, you think, Oh, this is important. I'd like to, you know, spend some time talking about this, or I wish people paid more attention to this. Well, I think where I truly have a dog in the fight is, is, is the following.
00:59:33
Speaker
is that certainly before Epictetus, people were talking about roles. You find it in Cicero, and Cicero's on duties, the Deo Ficius, and Cicero himself is cobbling from Penidius, and there's some evidence that the image of being a good actor with whatever role you've got is found in some of the cynics, and that has been explored.
00:59:59
Speaker
What I think is important about Abicatus' role ethics is that for him, that is ethics.
01:00:11
Speaker
So, in other words, you know, I think in Cicero, for example, in Cicero's cobbling directly from Pinidius, roles are simply one tool among many for figuring out what you should do. And in fact, in particular, I think it's larger confined to the virtue of decorum or seamliness.
01:00:29
Speaker
and more kind of traditional studies of just the concept of courage, so that you have knowledge of courage, you behave courageously. It's really structured around the kind of canonical four virtues, justice, courage, wisdom, moderation. But in Aborigines' royal ethics, those terms, by and large, slip away. He rarely makes reference to the traditional virtues, as we conceive of them.
01:00:54
Speaker
And I think what is most important is that for Epictetus, getting a grip on your rules and fulfilling them is sufficient to make you a good person. And even further, I don't think you have to for Epictetus to be a good theoretician in order to be a good man. Yeah, that's great because I'm the kind of
01:01:18
Speaker
Many people have their favorite stoic and then they're always biased, I think a bit by their favorite stoic. Like if someone's a Marcus Aurelius person, they're always like, Oh, this is, this is what stoicism is. And it's, it's just Marcus Aurelius' approach or Seneca. And for me, I was always like, I don't understand the virtues. Like, what is it like?
01:01:36
Speaker
Who like, how does courage help you as a virtue? Like that doesn't, that's not an, it just didn't make sense to me as part of ethical progress, the four virtues, because it was like, yeah, okay. I should, I should know what I, what I should be afraid of and not, and that's fine, but that doesn't really give me any content.
01:01:53
Speaker
Um, that's right. And I think that comes from just my bias of coming in through Epictetus, which is like, well, you have your desire and aversion. And so you, you know, you, you need to desire virtue and be averse to, uh, being a bad person and work on restricting it to that domain exclusively. And then the content of going about and, and, you know,
01:02:13
Speaker
for navigating indifference, well, that comes along with the roles. So I was always a bit confused about the place. I'm coming around to them, but I was always a bit confused to the place that the more canonical virtues played. And I think that's just because, as you said, Epictetus really downplays their importance with that replacement with role ethics.
01:02:33
Speaker
That's right. That's right. And also, I think context is actually important for knowing whether an action is courageous or rash. What is the context? It's going to be your role. I mean, what's going to be courageous for a fireman is going to be rash for me. Right? And of course, what's going to allow the fireman to run into the burning building is plenty of training.
01:02:58
Speaker
Plenty of training, getting used to smoke, getting used to recognizing, okay, don't open that door, it's hot. That might be a backdrop or it might pop open that door. Whereas again, for me, I would just be an idiot if I tried to do the kind of things a fireman would do.
01:03:18
Speaker
Yes. If you're like, does, you know, desire and aversion tells me that I should not be averse to fire. You know, if my, my body isn't indifferent, I should rush in there. It's like you're, you're, yeah, you're missing a picture. You're missing the picture here. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. Yeah. I'm just going to get myself killed. What's my role? What's my role? So
01:03:40
Speaker
Brian, anything, I've really, really enjoyed this, and I think we should do
Encouragement to Read Epictetus for Deeper Understanding
01:03:44
Speaker
it again. I think we've got more to talk about. But anything else that you wanted to hit on before we leave? Any interesting question you think that has been unexplored? I don't think so. I almost want to end with, say, read your Epictetus, folks. No, that's great. Read your Epictetus. Let's end it right there. Read your Epictetus. See, I feel like I can't say that. We've got to have this permission. Read your Epictetus, everybody.
01:04:08
Speaker
Uh, you heard it here and now I'm just, uh, I'm just, I'm just passing it on. That's right. Yeah. It's a future point. Let's continue the conversation, you know, maybe over the summer when things are calmer. So.
01:04:25
Speaker
Um, but great. Yeah. Thanks. Uh, thanks so much. And then for anybody that anybody here that's listening to the conversation wants to know a bit more about you and your work in any, anything you recommend, um, either, uh, your book or, uh, anything, anything online or. Oh, that's a big question. Um, I mean, I think my book is now at least a paperback, so it's reasonably, uh, cheap. And so, um,
01:04:50
Speaker
you know, I would say like the kind of first parts of the book are probably the most accessible. Now that's our part at the end where I try to compare Epithetus to Cicero, that's probably of less importance. But the first couple chapters I think are probably of use. And I at least get contacted now and again, often by people in the military saying how helpful they find rural ethics to kind of think through what they do.
01:05:11
Speaker
And then I think that would be it. But otherwise, you know, I, when people ask what do I, what to read rather than recommending myself, I always recommend, yeah. Epictetus himself, uh, or, or Anthony lawn spoke on Epictetus is just so lovely. Yeah. I think that's great. And I think at the end of the day,
01:05:29
Speaker
The secondary literature is almost more helpful once you've read the primary, like once you've gone and you've read Epictetus, like it's like, don't, don't, don't skip ahead. Read Epictetus first. And then the books about Epictetus will be a lot more. You'd be like, okay, now you're actually helping me digest this. So I agree with that. Right. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. My pleasure. Thank you. Have a good day, Michael, and enjoy your vacation.
01:05:54
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Stoa Conversations. Please give us a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share it with a friend. If you want to dive deeper still, search Stoa in the App Store or Play Store for a complete app with routines, meditations, and lessons designed to help people become.
01:06:13
Speaker
more stoic. And I'd also like to thank Michael Levy for graciously letting us use his music. You can find more of his work at ancientlyre.com. And finally, please get in touch with us. Send a message to stoa at stoameditation.com if you ever have any feedback, questions, or recommendations. Until next time.