Transcript
Speaker: That was my friend's one piece of advice to me before starting a podcast was don't forget to hit record.
Speaker: Well, I can't believe I'm saying this, but welcome to the first official episode of Something's Brewing, where we will fill your cup with inspirational conversations.
Speaker: And I'm so excited to have my friend Sheila Kruger on this episode, honorary first guest, somebody I've worked with in the past, and someone I'm grateful to call a friend.
Speaker: So Sheila, thank you for coming on to this first episode with me.
Speaker: Hello, right back at you, friend.
Speaker: I'm so excited to be able to be on the inaugural podcast.
Speaker: Something's brewing.
Speaker: It's really exciting.
Speaker: And I'm looking forward to learning a lot and being able to really tap into a lot of experts on this podcast.
Speaker: I am recently retired head of global benefits from zoom video communications and also had spent my entire career, almost my entire career in HR, focusing on total rewards, compensation benefits, wellness systems, all that fun stuff.
Speaker: And so I have like, like Laura mentioned, wellness is definitely a big focus for me.
Speaker: So I'm super excited to have
Speaker: that conversation today.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm super excited to have it.
Speaker: It's something that's, as you know, just a huge passion of mine, all sorts of wellness.
Speaker: And I know you and I have history just working together and building a friendship off of that work and our bond on, you know, what wellness means to us both individually and in the workplace.
Speaker: So I guess kicking it off, it would be, you know, what does wellness mean to you both personally and as it relates to people in the workplace?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think for me, wellness is really all about, you know, being up in the morning and facing the day with kind of a positive attitude and feeling good from tip to toe, inside and out.
Speaker: It really is a very holistic idea to me for well-being.
Speaker: And also, I think as an employee, having that sense of well-being, which includes a lot of things, and I'm sure we'll talk about what all those are, but having that complete sense of wellness, I think really lets you bring your
Speaker: whole self to work, your complete self, and to be able to really do the best work you can do, to be the best parent you can be, the best son or daughter, you know, whatever life throws at you.
Speaker: If you are balanced and in a place of balance with your wellness, I think you have a much better opportunity to seize the day.
Speaker: and make the most of everything that comes at you.
Speaker: That's probably for me what it really boils down to.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: One of the words I always use is balance.
Speaker: And I think that, you know, having our own sense of that equilibrium and understanding when it's off kilter also is just something that would be really beneficial to be aware of and signs of when it's
Speaker: off either one way or another.
Speaker: But one of the things that has come up for me, especially in working with a lot of corporate companies, organizations, is there seems to be a distinction now between employee wellness and wellness in general and human wellness, if we are now putting them as two separate things.
Speaker: Where, you know, in my work and in my role and in my life, I try to encourage people to think of wellness just holistically, as you mentioned.
Speaker: But how did we kind of get to this place where we see employee wellness so different than personal wellness?
Speaker: And, you know, as a follow up, I guess I'll ask, how do we kind of combat and offset that paradigm?
Speaker: Yeah, that's a really tough one, because I think a lot of it plays into the proliferation of point solutions that are available to help, right?
Speaker: So once that, you know, maintaining balance, I don't want to say, you know, because to me, it's like, it's always needs adjustment, right?
Speaker: I may get up Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and have the greatest outlook on life, but Thursday may just be a little rocky for me.
Speaker: That doesn't mean there's something wrong with me, but hopefully I've dealt with tools and tips to just like course adjust and move on and make the best of my day.
Speaker: But I do think that the monetization of that and as a benefit leader, when I need to bring those products into the workplace, or I want to bring those products into the workplace, obviously, I have to show ROI.
Speaker: I have to talk about how this is going to be great for the company, not just for the employees.
Speaker: And I think that's where the trail splits.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: It's like for the employee and for the employer and not necessarily everybody there.
Speaker: I think the HR team totally gets this.
Speaker: I think it's the finance side of the house that really wants to see that kind of ROI and may not buy into the fact that people will be more productive if they're, if they are holistically well.
Speaker: So I think that's part of it.
Speaker: It's like my journey as an employee may not correspond with what my employer wants my journey to be.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I think we all want to get to that place of holistic wellness, but I think there's probably a priority for the employer that involves productivity, engagement, all those kinds of things in the workplace.
Speaker: Whereas me as an employee, I may be working on a relationship with a family member or something like that.
Speaker: That may also impact my work.
Speaker: Obviously, it's going to
Speaker: But it's not my number one goal to be a better employee.
Speaker: It's my number one goal to be a whole person.
Speaker: So I think that's the difference.
Speaker: It's like I'm really looking as an employee at holistic wellness.
Speaker: My employer is looking for me to be a better employee.
Speaker: so with that do you think that every employee coming in is looking at themselves wanting to be in this great spot in wellness because i think we also deal with change management from the employee level right and the request of an individual having to change something about themselves or admit often in you know stereotypically in the wellness space it's admitting something needs to change or something is wrong right instead of reframing it as
Speaker: okay, how do you perform at your best both in life and in the workplace?
Speaker: So I wonder if it's almost that like bottom-up approach or it's the top-down of, you know, the employer having that mindset or the employees.
Speaker: Then you get into psychological safety and people needing to be able to speak for themselves and not everybody has that hat on of wellness first.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker: And I think really it's a combination.
Speaker: I think there's going to be a lot of people that are going to come into the workplace with that hopefully sense of balance or they're working on their sense of balance already because that's an important thing to them.
Speaker: But I think it's important too for the employer to work from the top down because given the stigma around especially mental health and really some of the other things too, like nobody wants to talk about if they're
Speaker: you know, living from paycheck to paycheck, and they can't pay their bills, financial wellness is so important.
Speaker: I mean, really all of it.
Speaker: But if the employer is talking about it, and working, you know, with the employees to help with that balance, I do think it is a help
Speaker: tool as well.
Speaker: Anything that comes at you to help you remove that stigma or make it feel okay to talk about, you know, how to get help or to get help.
Speaker: What kind of help do I even need?
Speaker: I'm not, I, maybe I'm just so out of balance that I'm not sure which way is up.
Speaker: And that happens to folks, right?
Speaker: It's been a stressful three years and it's, you know, and then it really, you know, it's almost like
Speaker: As the COVID curve came down, the economic curve went up.
Speaker: And so we're still all operating at like total Mach 2 here on fire, trying to make it through the day, right?
Speaker: So if an employer can help by just starting the conversation and having discussions with employees, webinars, whatever it is, any kind of communication that talks about, hey, if you just need somebody to talk to, here's what you can do.
Speaker: anything like that.
Speaker: I think both are important.
Speaker: I don't think there's one right answer because everybody's a little different.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker: As you were talking, it kind of brought up this idea for me of you've worked a lot in HR.
Speaker: Do you feel that there are people in HR that do value the idea of wellness?
Speaker: How much of HR is kind of checklist and making sure that we have certain things versus really advocating for these things
Speaker: Because it's coming from a personal space and a knowing that it's needed in the workplace.
Speaker: Yeah, I think given the number of people that are engaging in mental health programs or, you know, therapy or whatever, even, you know, a calm app or whatever it is that you've got that might be helping you get through things.
Speaker: I think given the number of people that are engaging in those types of therapies, probably about the same number of those HR people are truly empathetic.
Speaker: and truly understand what it means and why it's there.
Speaker: And I think the others are, you know, kind of like everybody else, they still a little bit of a stigma for some people in HR.
Speaker: They're still, you know, not, not really sure if it,
Speaker: Is the employer's place?
Speaker: I hear that a lot.
Speaker: Is this really our problem for these?
Speaker: Do we have to supply the answer for these folks to get back to balance?
Speaker: A lot of things like that as well.
Speaker: So I think it's probably the same kind of numbers that we would see in the general population.
Speaker: Maybe a little higher of people that are empathetic just because typically those are the folks that are in HR.
Speaker: But I've certainly heard from HR folks who are like, you can get a therapist somewhere else, use your medical plan, whatever.
Speaker: And we all know that doesn't work.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, what would you say as somebody who worked in HR that might need to shift, if anything, with certain HR or even leaders of teams, right?
Speaker: It can come from a leadership team that passes that message down to certain employees that make them feel safe of taking time for themselves or, you know, saying,
Speaker: There's so many people out there that say that they can't take five minutes to go eat lunch because they need to get things done.
Speaker: And that for me, I ask, is that a personal thing?
Speaker: Like, where does that kind of stop?
Speaker: Is it from the leadership that's being taught or is that just a personal battle that people face?
Speaker: Because my thing is everyone deserves to find their balance, right?
Speaker: Everyone deserves to feel their best and you deserve to figure out what helps you feel your best.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think that brings up
Speaker: A really important point over the last five years, probably that I've thought about a lot, which is, you know, employers can provide some really amazing mental health benefits to people.
Speaker: But I also look at the reverse of that and wonder how many times is the culture of a company driving people to imbalance.
Speaker: Interesting.
Speaker: So you get this kind of circular thing where, you know, based on the fact that maybe you're, you know, releasing products or updates or whatever on a really quick basis, there's a real focus on speed at work.
Speaker: And if you are from the top down, it's all about pressure to get things done quickly.
Speaker: Are you as an employer creating a culture of imbalance, which you then may or may not care to fund helping folks get back to balance, right?
Speaker: And so then it's a two-pronged thing.
Speaker: It's how do you change the culture of a company to say, hey, we need to get this stuff done fast.
Speaker: And we recognize that we can't do that 52 weeks out of the year with you working 60 hours a week, eating at your desk, doing all those kinds of things.
Speaker: So I think taking a really hard look at
Speaker: you know, the culture of the company.
Speaker: And then on the other hand, making sure that we are making those things available to people and not just making the therapy available, making the time for the therapy available and for folks to take that time without consequences.
Speaker: They need to be able to say, you know, my calendar's blocked for that hour because I'm, I'm going to therapy and that's it.
Speaker: I'm not going to change it.
Speaker: That's my time.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I could, you know, substitute therapy with whatever you so fit right in your life.
Speaker: Is it yoga?
Speaker: Is it just a walk outside?
Speaker: Is it a break from your desk?
Speaker: Because, you know, research has shown just taking that break gives you much more focus and performance than just going through all day, every day.
Speaker: And so I think you bring up a huge point.
Speaker: And anybody who's listening that might be able to reflect and ask themselves the question of,
Speaker: Do I provide that type of culture for my team, for my organization?
Speaker: Do I ask of my employer that we change some certain things, you know, and understanding that there are performance perks of, you know, allowing people that time.
Speaker: And one of the things I wanted to ask you is, do you have any examples that come to mind maybe of a team that did excel or a group within an organization that excelled to kind of put that culture in motion?
Speaker: And how did that set them apart from other teams?
Speaker: And yeah, there was a team at Zoom that I think really exemplified that.
Speaker: And I'm not going to say which one it was, but there definitely was.
Speaker: And one of the things that I think really helped was during COVID,
Speaker: You know, Zoom ramped up very quickly during COVID and it was a really crazy time.
Speaker: It was a super big high to work there because it was just so amazing, right?
Speaker: But I did see that a lot of people were not taking any time off.
Speaker: I mean, really people were working very hard and being very diligent.
Speaker: And so at one point we had talked to, of course, the executive team about, you know, how are we going to get people to take time off?
Speaker: And at one of our all staff meetings, one of the senior executives just made mention of the fact that he was taking a week off to go to Oregon.
Speaker: And just even the act of him saying, hey, look who I am.
Speaker: I'm taking a week off.
Speaker: I'm completely disconnecting.
Speaker: I am not going to talk to anybody this week.
Speaker: And making that very clear in this all hands meeting is
Speaker: really made a big difference.
Speaker: I mean, I think that was something that the people, you know, saw that as an example.
Speaker: And it was like, well, if he can take time off, surely I can take time off and really made a big difference.
Speaker: And he talked about it at his, you know, not just the all hands, but he, you know, carried that down through his department meetings and, and had his leaders carry that message too.
Speaker: So it was really important for them to do that.
Speaker: So even that one step made a big difference.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think there's an unknown or just a subconscious belief of if someone isn't, then I shouldn't either, or that'll set me apart.
Speaker: And I think that, you know, leaders out there, managers out there, you do have a huge impact on how your team thinks and feels.
Speaker: And especially if you notice somebody who's performing differently than they have before, thinking outside.
Speaker: I think wellness at this point, to be honest, unfortunately, is sometimes an afterthought for people of, you know, what are you doing outside of work?
Speaker: Or, you know, have you taken some time off?
Speaker: It's a very odd question to ask people, but I think a very important one to send the message.
Speaker: It's okay.
Speaker: And hey, I know you'll be better for the time off.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, and one of the things that we talked a lot about during the pandemic was even meeting times, you know, and I think it was always funny to me that I, you know, I heard the term zoom fatigue a lot.
Speaker: And I thought, you know, we had this before it was called meeting fatigue.
Speaker: Now it's just a video.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It really is just, you know, we did that before we ran from room to room to room to room all day long to do different meetings.
Speaker: This time now we're just sitting on our butts, right.
Speaker: And all day long, but I've seen studies and brain scans of people, you know, who have sat at their desk for a long time.
Speaker: The difference between those folks and the ones who schedule their meetings for 55 minutes and truly break and get up and walk around.
Speaker: I get up and walk around my pool a few times and it really does make a big difference in productivity and
Speaker: in how my mental health is.
Speaker: Just a little shift in situation and focus is so amazing for people.
Speaker: So doing things like that.
Speaker: Another thing that Zoom really pushed on during the pandemic and has continued to do so is the three A's of meetings, which was agenda, attendees, and action.
Speaker: And that was one thing where we were given the latitude to see if we got a meeting notice and we didn't know why we were going, reach out to the person that was organizing and say, we need a little more information about this.
Speaker: There should be an agenda in every meeting request.
Speaker: And if you look at that agenda and you know that you can't contribute or you're not the decision maker that needs to be there, get the right attendees into the meeting and then make sure that somebody is taking notes and everybody knows what actions they need to take.
Speaker: Because I know we've all been to the same meeting five times before.
Speaker: And we talked about the same exact things, right?
Speaker: And nothing happened because nobody wrote it down.
Speaker: Nobody made anybody accountable.
Speaker: And so those, those action items can be really huge.
Speaker: So, I mean, all those little tips and tricks, I think, you know, to help you through the work day, just really make a big difference.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you mentioned like taking a break and walking around your pool.
Speaker: How did wellbeing kind of fit into your role as an employee at an organization?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I was a complete failure at that, by the way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, let's rewrite that story for you.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, I could say instead, I learned a great lesson while I was, while I was during the pandemic, because I was one of those people who 60 hours a week, heads down, no lunch, no breaks, just really, really focused on what was going on.
Speaker: And, you know, part of that is as an empathetic HR benefits leader, I had a lot of people to take care of.
Speaker: So, and a lot of concern about, you know, how's everybody else doing and not nearly enough focus on, hey, you know, the hated phrase of COVID, put your oxygen mask on first, right?
Speaker: So true.
Speaker: So true.
Speaker: Yeah, it is.
Speaker: It really is.
Speaker: So I did see a deterioration in my attitude, my mental health, my physical health started to fail.
Speaker: And I, and I did, I ended up taking a three month leave because I just needed the break.
Speaker: I just needed to get away.
Speaker: And so that was a huge turnaround for me.
Speaker: I spent that three months with my therapist, with a functional medicine person, really working on getting back to 100% so that I could give 100% again, because at that point, I just was, I just completely tapped out.
Speaker: And it made a huge difference.
Speaker: That three months really gave me a lot of insight into
Speaker: what I needed to do for myself, what boundaries I needed to set, how I needed to structure my day, all those kinds of things.
Speaker: And so when I came back, I came back with that really, you know, very, very good sense of boundaries, very ingrained at that point, ideas about self care and what I needed every day.
Speaker: to stay healthy, to stay balanced.
Speaker: Like we said, you know, it's all about the balance.
Speaker: And, you know, just really made a world of difference.
Speaker: And I was so happy that I was able to take those three months and spend the time to do that work for myself and for my family.
Speaker: And really, you know, for my employer too.
Speaker: In the end, it was basically, they certainly got a much better employee back when I came back.
Speaker: So just those kinds of things, I think as an employee, being really aware of where you're at.
Speaker: And it's so hard when you're caught up in the moment, though.
Speaker: It's really easy to get sucked into that.
Speaker: Like I'm important and you are.
Speaker: Every employee is important.
Speaker: Every employee is doing really great work, trying to do things for the company.
Speaker: And you just kind of forget.
Speaker: I can't do this unless I take care of me.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: And we heard burnout was a huge thing that came up all over the place.
Speaker: And I think a lot of people hit the same wall that you're talking about, unfortunately, after a long time of not paying attention to signs, symptoms, whatever it was.
Speaker: So there's a lot that we can do as employees.
Speaker: And that was kind of going to lead into my next question.
Speaker: If you having been in HR, what would you say to employees who are kind of seeking either more support from their employer or ways of finding more psychological safety to
Speaker: kind of have those conversations within their organization?
Speaker: Yeah, I think a really good start always is that EAP.
Speaker: And although I'm not a big proponent of the traditional EAP, because I do find that they're difficult to get into, you wait a long time sometimes to get an appointment with somebody who's, you know, available and taking new customers or new clients.
Speaker: But I do think, you know, trying to get that help that way through the employer.
Speaker: But I think the other thing is to just have the conversations with the HR team to
Speaker: talk to your business partner, talk to your benefits folks and just say, hey, here's my experience with our EAP or whatever you've got available to them.
Speaker: You know, if you are in the know about some of the great programs that are out there, ask about adding them to your benefit plan.
Speaker: It's just, I think those kinds of things are really important.
Speaker: Almost every EAP has...
Speaker: manager training available.
Speaker: So maybe encouraging your HR team to have some managers go through that so they understand the signs and the symptoms and when they may need to get involved and kind of drive somebody into some mental health, mental health help.
Speaker: I think all of those things are really important.
Speaker: But that trust issue is a big one that psychological safety.
Speaker: You know, if you have a bully boss, it's going to be really hard, you know, for you to try and get that help because you're not probably comfortable, obviously going to that person.
Speaker: But a lot of times you can rely on peers to help.
Speaker: I mean, everybody, like I said, everybody that's engaged in this mental health world, there's a lot of people out there doing it and not saying anything, right?
Speaker: So if you're vulnerable and ask, I think some people would be really surprised from their peers suddenly saying, oh yeah, I did this and giving you auctions as well.
Speaker: So I think it's, but I totally understand not wanting to say anything.
Speaker: Totally understand it.
Speaker: Yeah, I do too.
Speaker: But I also believe in the power of just there's something to be said about sharing being vulnerable, right, as strength.
Speaker: And you're never alone in how you're feeling.
Speaker: You might not find the person the first time.
Speaker: But if you go ask another person, guarantee, you know, it's coming back around maybe in a different way.
Speaker: But it'll allow you to have that sense of safety, that sense of support.
Speaker: And that's really key in understanding.
Speaker: Because we spend a lot of our time at work and, you know, right or wrong, we all do.
Speaker: And it's a sense of identity for a lot of us.
Speaker: It's a sense of, you know, security.
Speaker: And with that comes sometimes loss of taking care of ourselves.
Speaker: And so as we start to kind of round out and end this conversation that I'm sure we can kind of go on forever with, I was wondering what your favorite thing to do for your own well-being is.
Speaker: And maybe some people out there could resonate.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think really in the last few years, especially it's kind of been on a grand scale, it's travel.
Speaker: I mean, I really enjoy that.
Speaker: I love the going and seeing new places, meeting new people, trying new foods, walking in new areas, all of that kind of adventure.
Speaker: But really on the day to day, it's, you know, just taking the time to be thoughtful about exercising, to be thoughtful about what I'm putting into my body.
Speaker: And I'm not going to say there's not an occasional Oreo that goes down the hat.
Speaker: The best snack, the best, the best, sadly, not the most nutritious.
Speaker: They should work on that.
Speaker: No, not at all.
Speaker: Couldn't they put a little protein powder in that, in that cookie?
Speaker: Drink some milk.
Speaker: That's right.
Speaker: Yeah, there you go.
Speaker: But you know, again, taking the time I have found now that I'm not working, having a structured day is really important.
Speaker: I mean, it's like, yeah, it's great that I don't have to do anything.
Speaker: But there are a lot of things that I want to get done in the day.
Speaker: And so structuring that so that I have, you know, a solid core of time when I'll work with my on my business.
Speaker: And then I will, you know, maybe have a little family time, maybe I'll eat lunch with my husband, maybe I'll go eat lunch with my mom, do that kind of thing.
Speaker: And then in the afternoon, I can work on the charity or work on something else.
Speaker: So, you know, just having that sense of purpose and having that, you know, kind of schedule for me makes a big difference because I get a lot of self-care from just checking things off.
Speaker: Like I'm done, I'm done, I'm done.
Speaker: Same.
Speaker: My boss knows I add things to a list that are already done just to check them off.
Speaker: So been there.
Speaker: Yeah, I have.
Speaker: And now she does it just to just to satisfy me because it's such a like we did it.
Speaker: Hey, we did it.
Speaker: We got to get credit for it.
Speaker: So that's right.
Speaker: Yeah, I love that.
Speaker: I've passed it on to her as you were talking.
Speaker: One last thing did come up just.
Speaker: Just because you're now not working.
Speaker: So any advice or any insight into people who are still working and might be struggling to find the balance between work and wellness or speaking up for their own needs, I think would be a really great spot to end.
Speaker: Yeah, I think absolutely.
Speaker: If you're comfortable talking with your manager or your supervisor, you know, having that conversation is great.
Speaker: Because if you've got a good manager, they're going to either know already where to send you or they're going to know to talk to HR.
Speaker: And that's your second step, I think, if you talk to your HR team to find out what's available for you.
Speaker: I do think those three A's for meetings are really big.
Speaker: Give yourself the power to say no to a meeting if you know you're going to sit there and not be engaged or really helpful or part of the process that's happening.
Speaker: I think it's really important that you do that.
Speaker: I also think that setting up your calendar to do the 55 or the 50-minute meetings instead of automatically doing an hour.
Speaker: I mean, seriously, the five-minute break has so much power.
Speaker: It's amazing to me the science behind it.
Speaker: And what I've seen is just, it's almost catastrophic not to do it.
Speaker: So taking that time to move around
Speaker: You aren't running from meeting room to meeting room anymore.
Speaker: So you've got to get up and move around somehow.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's one of the, I think one of the most basic things that you can do to really help and blocking out your calendar for lunch.
Speaker: Also another one.
Speaker: You deserve it on there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And even.
Speaker: Even if you've been snacking at your desk all morning and you're maybe not going to sit down and have a real lunch, you know, you can use that time for other things that you might want to do.
Speaker: Take a quick lap in the pool, take a walk around the block, do whatever, go in and unload the dishwasher, whatever it is you want to do that is movement and helps you to maintain your balance.
Speaker: Take the time to do it and make sure that you are putting guardrails around that so that you don't erode it away.
Speaker: So your lunch is suddenly five minutes, like every break between your meetings.
Speaker: You really need to protect that.
Speaker: pretty fiercely.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: Thank you so much, Sheila.
Speaker: First guest on Something's Brewing, and I'm so excited to have had you here.
Speaker: I'm excited for more conversations with more folks, but always the honorary first guest, one of my longtime friends, and somebody I'm very grateful to have in my life.
Speaker: So thank you for sharing your thoughts with us and being on my first podcast.
Speaker: Of course.
Speaker: Happy to do it.
Speaker: And best of luck to you.
Speaker: I'm really looking forward to it.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you.
