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Teresa Alfeld and Doug and the Slugs and Me
87 Plays1 year ago
Mark and Joe are joined by documentary film maker Teresa Alfeld. She's made two films, The Rankin File: Legacy of a Radical and Doug and the Slugs and Me.
Both of the co-hosts listened to (and loved) Doug and the Slugs when the Canadian band was popular. Teresa's best friend growing up was Shea Bennett, the daughter of Doug Bennett, who was the front-man and main songwriter for the band.
"For me, Doug was just Shea's dad, but I didn't appreciate the scope and magnitude of his career in their hey day," she says.
Teresa discovered Doug's music later in life, when she was choosing the score for The Rankin File, and she wanted music from the Vancouver scene in the 1980s, as the doc was set in the same time.
"It was such an absolute shock to hear their music. It was just so much richer, both musically and lyrically, than I thought."
She ended up using just Doug and the Slugs material exclusively for the film.
Then they take a deep dive into the story of Doug Bennett, the band, and how she created such a wonderful documentary.
A great conversation, not to be missed if you're interested in the 80s, the music business, and Doug and the Slugs.
For more info on this episode, visit the show notes page.
Re-Creative is co-produced by Donovan Street Press Inc. and MonkeyJoy Press.
Contact us: joemahoney@donovanstreetpress.com
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Transcript
Mark's Musical Memories
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello, Mark. Joe, how are you? I'm, you know, I'm the usual. The usual? You're very steady state, man. Well, you know.
00:00:18
Speaker
I have a question, of course.
Joe's Teenage Music Influences
00:00:20
Speaker
What was one of your favorite bands when you were a kid? Well, of course, the obvious answer is the band that we're going to talk about today. And I had a lot of affection for them. But when I was a kid, me and the gang, we loved Genesis and Progressive Rock and stuff like that. Okay, cool.
00:00:39
Speaker
Yeah, we would drive around listening to Genesis and then eventually I had the opportunity to meet those guys and that was fantastic and tell them how much I love their music. Oh, you got to meet Genesis? Yeah, I got to meet Phil Collins and Tony Banks and Rutherford. Yeah, and it was because I didn't normally do that in my day job, the fanboy thing.
00:01:01
Speaker
Right. But with them, I had to make an exception. They were in the studio. I set them up. And and then I said, listen, guys, I got to tell you, I love your music. I listened to it all the time. I grew up with it. And they're all like, wow, that's amazing. Thanks, man. As if they'd never heard that a thousand times before. Well, it's your chance to say it, though. So you had to take it. It was a good moment. What about you?
00:01:25
Speaker
Uh, well, if we're talking about the same era, like sort of teenage years, I got to say Bruce Springsteen in the East street band. That was, that was our guy. Okay. He was singing our anthems and maybe Brian Adams at the same time. Like it was like between the two. Yeah. Yep. Excellent choices.
Teresa's Unpopular Favorite Artist
00:01:43
Speaker
And so we should ask our guest and Teresa Alfeld, what about you? I mean, are you going to tell us what the obvious answer for you or.
00:01:52
Speaker
I mean, I guess the obvious answer would be Doug in the slugs, but as an actual child, that's not correct. As a young person, my favorite artist hands down was Michael Jackson because I was totally out of step. You know, I discovered him when I was about 12 or 13, and this was in the early 2000s. He was not cool or popular or someone that anyone was listening to at this juncture, at least in my age group. But I can't remember how he,
00:02:21
Speaker
appeared in my life, but I was obsessed for a very long period of time, so much so that I would learn classical adaptations of his music to perform in piano recitals as I advanced in the recording. I was a huge nerd, and that's something I'm happy to chat about as we spend time together today.
Teresa's Filmmaking Journey
00:02:40
Speaker
But could you moonwalk? That's my next question.
00:02:44
Speaker
I think I had a serviceable moonwalk. You know, I wouldn't say it was a spectacular, but it got the job done. Nice. Good for you. Okay. Now I regret that we were not doing video here. So yeah. Although we could pretend, Oh, look at her. She's that's wow. Very impressive. That's actually pretty good moonwalk. Thank you. Thank you so much. Any particular album or song of his or?
00:03:08
Speaker
Oh my gosh, that, okay, we're going to be here for several hours if you ask me that. I think when I was, when I was younger and first discovered him, it was probably somewhere between just thriller and bad. Although I loved dangerous later on when I got a little bit older. So.
00:03:23
Speaker
those three albums would be the ones I'd cycle through the wall. I also loved his work with the Jackson specifically, not the Jackson Five. There's a personnel change, so you might know a label change, and then they perform as somewhat awkward older teens and men in their 20s, but they had some really cool stuff right before he launched, but so many great albums.
00:03:44
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know how many of them were produced by Quincy Jones, but I mean, just right there question because again, I was a super fan. Uh, so he produced off the wall, thriller and bad, um, off the wall. Also obviously a stellar album. So those were really, you know, some of his best work. Then Michael started working with other producers and by the mid nineties, things really crashed. We're going to pretend that choca time didn't happen.
00:04:06
Speaker
Oh my God, okay, we're gonna have to have you back actually and talk about Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson, come on. We're here to talk about somebody else today, but before we do that, would you mind just telling us a little bit about yourself and your background and the work that you do?
00:04:20
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Teresa Elphold. I'm a documentary filmmaker out of Vancouver, BC. I've had the pleasure of doing two feature documentaries in the last few years, as well as a collection of shorts, both documentary and scripted. My first film was The Rankin File, Legacy of a Radical, which chronicled the story of Vancouver politician Harry Rankin. It was produced by my producer, John Bolton, who also produced
00:04:46
Speaker
My second feature documentary, Dug in the Slugs of Me, which is a film that I think we're going to be chatting a bit about today.
00:04:51
Speaker
On that note, let me just say that first of all, when I first became aware of the existence of such a film, I was already really happy about that because for years I'd been wondering, why is nobody talking and writing about Doug and the Slugs? Because I thought that they were a quintessential Canadian band before, you know, long before the Tragically Hip and Blue Rodeo and bands like that. So, and then I set aside time to watch your documentary on CBC Gem.
00:05:19
Speaker
And I was not disappointed at all. Not that I thought I would be, but I thought it was fantastic. I thought it was personal, it was entertaining, it was informative. And I knew that I had to go to Mark and say, we need to invite Theresa to the podcast if we can get her. So I'm thrilled that you're here to talk to us about this. I was disappointed, but with Jim, not the documentary.
00:05:44
Speaker
Okay, it was very challenging to watch because they throw in a lot of ads and yeah, let me do my public service work for the CBC and say there is a premium version of gem. It's as cheap as like a dollar a month on promotion. I would pay for that 100%.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, and it's about six bucks a month. But then you can watch the film without ads a little easier for because it kicked me out on the ad breaks at least twice. But the thing was, I love the documentary. It was so well done. And you didn't mention in your bio there that you're from Vancouver and you lived next to Doug Bennett and his his daughter was your best daughter was your best
Personal Connection to Doug Bennett
00:06:23
Speaker
friend. I mean, that's amazing.
00:06:25
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And obviously, that's a story chapter that we cover in the film. But you asked me off the top of the chat, assuming that my favorite band as a child was Doug and the Slugs. But that's not true. I didn't really know who Doug and the Slugs were. I was too young, and the band's heyday had gently concluded. And so to me, Doug was just Shay's dad. And I did know he was in a band. I did see them perform, I feel like, maybe once
00:06:55
Speaker
or twice as a very young child. But I didn't appreciate the scope and the magnitude of their career in their heyday, nor did I appreciate the music beyond. You know, I didn't know the big hits because we would still hear too bad and making it work on on Golden Oldies, which was always playing in my house. But in any event, no, I had no clue really about about the band until much later in my life. And then how did you become
00:07:22
Speaker
aware. And then how did that feel kind of making that connection? It was a really interesting and strange process. I was actually
00:07:32
Speaker
in the middle of making my first feature documentary, the film about Harry Rankin. And I was looking for some music to use in the film. And I wanted something, that film was really set in 1986, Vancouver. It uses a wealth of beautiful archival footage that another filmmaker shot at the time. So it's a film really, really set in mid 80s Vancouver. And I was trying to think, I want some music that reflects the vibrancy of that era post-expo.
00:08:00
Speaker
the quirky underdog vibe of Vancouver, all of those things. And I don't want, you know, just my choices. I don't typically like to just score documentaries. I love to use existing music when I can. And I was literally at that time in my life living back at my mom's house after a recent move from Victoria where we'd been living. And my home office at the time was one of the bedrooms upstairs. And I remember just sitting there thinking, thinking, thinking.
00:08:28
Speaker
And I literally spun in my chair and I looked over and the Bennett house was there. And obviously, uh, no, no, Bennett's lived there at this time, but I just thought, Oh, Doug in the slugs, huh? Haven't listened to them in a while. I haven't really thought of them in a while. I wonder, I wonder what could happen there. And so I just started listening to the music. This was before the band, bless them, had put everything on Spotify and YouTube. So it was really like just putting my order in.
00:08:55
Speaker
I go into the record shops to start collecting all their, their LPs. And it was such an absolute shock to hear this music beyond those big hits. Cause again, yes, I know too bad and yes, I know making it work and they're wonderful songs, but I started listening to the full albums and some of the deeper cuts and it was just so much richer, both musically America
00:09:21
Speaker
ever expected, that I got really hooked. And so from there, I made the choice to only use the slugs music in that first feature film, we got a really positive response to the the soundtrack. And that led my producer, John Bolton, and I'd be like, Oh, talking to slugs, right, there's probably a story there. Let's, let's see, let's see what we can do with that idea. And here we are.
Iconic Status of Doug and the Slugs
00:09:44
Speaker
And it's a great story, too. It's really personal and lovely. But I think we should take it to step back. We should probably talk about who Doug and the Slugs were. I mean, Joe and I are Canadian and of a certain vintage, so we know very well who Doug and the Slugs were. But could you describe for our other listeners who aren't necessarily Canadian or of a certain age?
00:10:05
Speaker
My generation, you know, my generation isn't super familiar with Doug and the Slugs, but as I told folks that I was working on the film, if I told someone of my generation, usually the response was, oh, my parents love Doug and the Slugs. They sold with Commodore 81. And I'm like, that's wonderful. You should go listen to the music now too. But anyways, Doug and the Slugs is a wonderful, you know, we call them the iconic Canadian party band. They were formed in Vancouver.
00:10:32
Speaker
in 1977 by Doug Bennett and John Burton. They built a reputation for playing their own hosted shows at ethnic halls around Vancouver. Doug Bennett was not a musician by trade. He actually came from a marketing background. He'd worked in advertisement and he managed to build a real buzz around the band. And from there, after a personnel change,
00:10:57
Speaker
They really took off in 1979 with their first single, Too Bad. They had a number of gold records. They did extremely well in Canada. I've mentioned the songs Too Bad and making it work. Also, Day by Day, Tom Faufrault, huge hits. I couldn't say what genre Doug and the Slugs are. No one can say really what genre they are.
00:11:25
Speaker
sort of new wave-ish R&B-ish constantly pulling from different genres. And yes, the band not only succeeded with their music, but also they were real pioneers of the music video format with Doug Bennett writing and directing their early videos. And they were one of the first bands actually shown on MTV in the very, very early days. So
Insights from Doug Bennett's Journals
00:11:50
Speaker
They're an incredibly important band. Things ended in the early 90s, but they've left just this incredible catalog of music and one that I'm really hoping that folks who see the film get to rediscover just like I did when I started this project.
00:12:06
Speaker
Well, and you really, really fleshed out their story because, you know, when I had gone looking for information about them before you came along, all I was ever really able to find out was that Doug Bennett was, he was described as a businessman who decided to start his own band and then he passed away tragically at a very young age.
00:12:26
Speaker
it wasn't really clear why, just suggested that maybe it had something to do with his grueling touring schedule or something. And then in your documentary, you flesh out that whole story from a personal angle. And it's kind of even sadder than I had been aware of the information that you provided
00:12:45
Speaker
lended more gravitas to songs like day by day, you know, and certain lyrics and day by day talking. I don't know if there is a connection, but it sounds like he's talking about his feelings and how he's feeling about his life. And Doug was a real poet. And I really felt one of the first strong feelings I had when I was developing the film was I now that I know
00:13:08
Speaker
how rich the music is. And again, we're talking about Doug from the lyrical end, but also the band members to, you know, Simon Kendall and John Burton specifically were instrumental in coming up with the arrangements and the instrumentation.
00:13:22
Speaker
The tracks beyond those big hits are just fascinating. You know, day by day, you mentioned my favorite song, which is highlighted quite a bit in the documentary is partly from pressure, not one that ever got much radio play or that many even fans are familiar with. But the rise just, you know, while on the outside, they had this this this image of fun, of goofiness, of irreverence and wackiness and
00:13:52
Speaker
sardonic humor. There was some real rich and complex ideas being contemplated and expressed musically and lyrically, and that's really what got me hooked.
00:14:03
Speaker
I loved in your documentary how, um, you started with his really beginning points of getting into the music business, which was working for the Georgia straight. And I'm like, so wait a minute, get me the straight. Doug was friends with Bob Geldof. And my second question was why the hell was Bob Geldof working at the Georgia straight? Did you ever get an answer for that? It's like, it was like, what is college kids living in Vancouver working for this little arts paper?
00:14:33
Speaker
I love you.
00:14:35
Speaker
Yeah, no, I certainly can answer that. So for those of you who haven't seen the film, yes, I was lucky enough to interview Sir Bob Geldof near his home in London. And so obviously, yes, it was important to make sure I understood the full story from who knew it. And so Sir Bob, who was just Bob at the time, had come to BC looking for a break because he had begun his career in Ireland. But he'd come to BC.
00:15:04
Speaker
And he wanted to work in resources. He wanted to do something totally different. And my understanding is that he started, I believe it was in logging or it was in something resource oriented. Again, looking for a total break in something different.
00:15:19
Speaker
but that hadn't quite panned out. And so he ended up in Vancouver and started writing and again, I could be slightly wrong here, but I believe he started writing spec reviews for the Georgia straight and then they ended up hiring him. And so
00:15:34
Speaker
Yes, he was friends with Doug through very shared time at that very radical and very important and significant newspaper. And it was just wild. One of my first clues to that relationship not only was the band sharing that Bob Gilduff had reached out when Doug died to offer his condolences,
00:15:54
Speaker
but more excitingly for me was actually seeing his name as well as a number of other really interesting names in Doug's journal when he was reflecting on significant relationships and periods of his life and
00:16:05
Speaker
describing hanging out with, with Bob. And this, this was him writing in the early eighties, looking back, you know, seven, 10 years. Um, and sort of, you know, just having a moment and thinking about how far the boomtown rats had gone. Uh, this is before live aid and, and Bob really taking off and, um, and him, you know, contemplating his own success at that point. So it was a real trip, really fun.
00:16:29
Speaker
Wow, I'm just imagining Bob Geldof watching Michael Palin and Monty Python and the Lumberjack song going, yes, that's it for me. I want to be a Lumberjack at BC. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to BC.
00:16:43
Speaker
Now, I know I might have the actual graphs wrong, but I seem to recall it was something in outdoor resources. And I have a follow-up question to that, not more silliness, sorry. I know we probably should have said spoiler alert for the documentary at the very start because I have questions. So there's this moment when you appear on screen with this box of spiral-bound notebooks that
00:17:13
Speaker
Doug Bennett made, apparently every day of his life, he made a journal entry. What was that like as a documentary maker at that moment? Was it just, was it completely overwhelming or were you just so excited that you had this resource at your hands? Or was it a combination of both of those things? Oh, that's a great question. I definitely say getting the journals was a combination of both. I didn't get them all right at
00:17:42
Speaker
the beginning. I had a couple teases first before I finally got the collecting. And if I can define one commonality with my two feature films and really with my career in general, I'd say I've been really lucky, really, really lucky. And that
00:17:59
Speaker
getting Doug Bennett's journals was one of those cases. I mean, I looked at them and I'm a journaler myself. So right away, I felt a kinship with Doug. And this was very early in the process. So we actually didn't have any funding. We didn't. This was just John Bolton and myself at this point. We had very few people on board other than the band and the family's participation. And so it was really a period of months of me just
00:18:27
Speaker
reading these books. And I had was actually traveling a little bit that year and I took them with me nervously sealed in multiple simple different countries and but read them as I as I went. And it was just
00:18:44
Speaker
You know, it was a real, I don't even know what the word is. It was, it was transcendent, you know, to be able to go into someone's mind, um, like that. And it was, I will say it was confirmed to me by, by Nancy Doug's widow, by John and Simon from the band that Doug had been planning to write a memoir.
00:19:03
Speaker
and that these books had been key for that. Yes, of course I felt some apprehension when I first got them. Should I be reading these? Do I have a right to read these? What responsibility will I carry once I have read them?
00:19:16
Speaker
but Doug's writing style really supported that. They begin in 1980 just after Too Bad is taken off and they feel like a man chronicling his journey to doing something great. So I eventually settled into a degree of comfort in reading them and really they were a revelation.
00:19:37
Speaker
I appreciate that answer because it's very honest. Yeah, because I think I would feel that apprehension if I had somebody's life in my hands like that. My thought was when I saw that, it's like, that's such an incredible gift for what you're trying to accomplish in this documentary. But at the same time, it's like, oh my God.
00:19:57
Speaker
I'll just clarify, they weren't exactly daily entries. They were daily entries. Usually when he was on tour, they were far more consistent when he was on tour. And that really was the bulk of his writing was the touring process was the recording of his albums, working through lyrics and such. But there certainly could be gaps. And that's true of my journals too. So, but really to step back and look at the, the amount. So it was 39 journals.
00:20:24
Speaker
written from 1980 to 1989. So he starts them in his late twenties and ends them a decade after. I mean, I'm sure we can all reflect on the amount of growth that takes place in those 10 years. It's enormous. And it was just an absolute trip. Stepping back even further, growing up next to him, you didn't know really who he was or what he did. How much interaction did you actually have with Doug Bennett?
00:20:52
Speaker
Oh, I had tons of interaction with Doug Bennett, but again, he was my best friend's dad. He was a very hands-on dad.
00:21:01
Speaker
incredibly present, especially considering he didn't go to the office at a nine to five job. When he was there, he was there. He was always in the kitchen cooking. He hosted parties all of the time that I was welcome to come to. This was especially exciting for me as I was the only child or am the only child of two older parents.
00:21:24
Speaker
And so my house was very quiet and very organized and fun and great, but the Bennett house was this absolute vibrant chaos and.
00:21:34
Speaker
Doug, again, like my, my first memories are of Doug or of him putting a Thanksgiving turkey on his head and chasing us girls in the yard or it was making fart jokes or, you know, just again, he was this big, goofy, larger than life neighborhood dad. And so I felt like I knew him. I just had no clue who he was, you know, two decades before.
00:22:00
Speaker
that persona jobs with the stage persona that I saw. Yeah, that's the stage persona. Yeah, I was fortunate enough to see him at least twice that I recall. Yeah, me too. And he was always making wise cracks and, you know, and at one point, and this is a part of the reason I guess I feel like I have a tiny little bit of a personal connection with the band. I saw them at the forum.
00:22:20
Speaker
In ontario place yeah and uh and i'm not a particularly demonstrative person you know but i thoroughly enjoying the music but probably not showing it overtly and dug looked out into the audience and pointed.
00:22:35
Speaker
And I realized he was pointing at me. And so I pointed at myself and I'm like, and then he nodded. He's like, yes, yes, you, you know, and then he mimed clapping, you know, like, come on, man, get into it. So I did. That's just got such a kick out of that. That's that's because that's one of my memory. So he was huge in the Queens players. I was I was a Queens player when I went to university and we used a bunch of his songs in our cabarets like
00:23:05
Speaker
Almost like every cabaret I was in, we had at least one Doug in the slug song and he came to Kingston a couple of times and same story. It wasn't me though. It was, it was my friend, Dave Lurie and Dave Lurie and Andrew Hyatt were singing along and he invited them up on stage and they sang backups, I think on too bad. It might've been two songs that I got to do two numbers before they got kicked off.
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah, he was big in our group. I think it was the mixture of
00:23:39
Speaker
musicality, the fact that there was multi-part vocals for Queen's Players, especially because that's what we did. And I just, yeah, listening to his music today, because I knew I was going to be talking to you, I was like, well, I guess it's the Doug of the Slugs Day. And yeah, you're right about the music. There's just some great lyrics that are deep. Yeah, they're really amazing. His songwriting is really amazing. And there's an element of
00:24:05
Speaker
You know, again, spoiler alert, but I mean, there's more than an element, I guess, of tragedy, you know, to the, to your documentary and to his story. And I'd always felt that knowing that he died at such a young age. And how old was he? He was in his fifties, right? He was 52, just about to turn, just two weeks shy, it was 53rd birthday.
00:24:26
Speaker
Yeah, and then that coupled with, I mean, he wanted the band to be a huge success and it achieved a certain level of success, didn't break out really in the United States or anyways else in the world. So it never quite achieved the success I think that he had hoped for, but kind of kept chasing, right?
00:24:48
Speaker
Yeah, I really love Sam Feldman's line early in the film. Sam Feldman was his manager and good friend for a long time. Doug's dream was world domination. And I think that's true. And I actually think that Doug's dream of world domination preceded him entering music.
00:25:05
Speaker
I think that it was a focus and a drive and a curiosity that I got the sense from interviewing family and friends originated very young. And Doug actually didn't intend to go into music as you might understand now from knowing how latent that he'd already had a career, but he wanted to be a filmmaker and he wanted to go to film school and he almost did. There was unfortunately a hiccup with his school financing, but
00:25:33
Speaker
I think that to have that drive and that ambition on the one hand is fantastic because it got them where they went. I mean, I know only from interviewing his bandmates and family and friends, but from the journals, just how dedicated he was and how hard he worked to getting the band on the map.
00:25:54
Speaker
So on the one hand, it was a blessing because it really got them into the stratosphere, at least in Canadian standards. But the other side of that coin is that he could never be happy with what he had. And so I think a lot of folks would look at the success, again, the gold albums, the Juno wins and nominations. And
00:26:17
Speaker
just reaching that degree of adoration and say, okay, I did it. I think for people who have that insatiable drive like Doug, it's still not enough. And so the fact that they never did successfully break into the US, they do have a pocket of support in Australia, but despite really concerted efforts, they couldn't break the States. I think that really hurt.
00:26:42
Speaker
And worse, then things started to be stripped away. You know, what success they had kind of petered out and then his marriage, that didn't work out. And it must have been just increasingly painful for him.
00:26:58
Speaker
I can't imagine. And I'll say Doug stopped writing in 1989. So I don't have access to his inner thoughts from the latter part of his life. I knew him well in the late 90s. But after he left the house, I certainly was out of touch. I had changed schools as well. So I was no longer in touch with Shay. But I can't imagine how difficult that was. He worked so hard.
00:27:27
Speaker
for so long. And I think, you know, one consistent piece that a lot of his friends said was that Doug would give you the shirt off his back. He would do anything he could for his friends, but he could never ask for help. Really, that really struck me and jived with the story as I came to know it. Now, this and I want to ask you about because you're in the arts, you're making documentaries and films, presumably with some aspirations of
00:27:56
Speaker
even greater things. Mark and I are writers waiting for our careers to turn into something resembling JK Rowling's.
00:28:08
Speaker
Wow. As long as I don't follow the same arc, I'm okay. At some point, you kind of reconcile yourself with it's the process and you're enjoying the process. And sure, if there's like fame and fortune and whatnot, great. But I think we have a healthy relationship with that ambition. How does it relate to your career and your life and your work, that idea?
Artistic Ambition vs. Personal Well-being
00:28:31
Speaker
There's a heavy question. You know, I love that. That's great. I was thinking the same thing because there's two prongs to the narrative in your film, which I really identified with, which is that it's the, I don't want to say hubris, but like the goal of, you know, conquering America, say, for example, as a rock star. And then,
00:28:53
Speaker
the tragedy of not being able to succeed at that at the same time. And then what you give up along the way. And I think for you in the film, one of the things that's nice about the film is that you come to the realization that you didn't lose your friendship with Shay. It just wasn't the same for a while. And so I guess my question is, yeah, how do those things all fit together in your head?
00:29:20
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. It's a hard question. No, it's a good one. And it's one that honestly, you know, one of the first things that that that attracted me to Doug's journals outside of the insight and the intimacy of being in his head. But, you know, he was describing the the path of an artist trying to fulfill his dreams and
00:29:45
Speaker
without comparing myself to Doug and the massive success that he achieved, I really identified with that. And I was actually of a similar-ish age, a little bit older than he was when he started writing, and was in almost a similar place in my life. There's a lot of commonalities. I came to film, to documentary specifically, late in life. And so it was fascinating to me to sort of chart
00:30:12
Speaker
how he set his goals and his dreams and worked towards them. And what it felt like when he started hitting them, you know, like those early entries, the degree of excitement is just palpable. You know, he writes about the first time he played the Elmer combo in Toronto, and then a year later, the bottom line in New York.
00:30:33
Speaker
And, you know, going back to Elmer Kombo, the first autograph he signed and all these pieces. And I was reading it like, oh my gosh, like, I can feel that with you. Again, now as an artist in a very different genre, I certainly haven't and success in my field looks very different than what it does for Doug. But I understand that that moment of hitting those first milestones and those first pieces that you're seeking, certainly for me with my first film,
00:31:03
Speaker
But I think similarly to Doug, the ceiling just raises. You hit what you thought would be enough, and you're like, oh, that was great. Let's do bigger next time. Now I want this. And now the ceiling gets higher. And what satisfied you five years ago now leaves you cold. And so I think that one thing I've taken from the story, and also talking to the band members too, to Simon and John,
00:31:32
Speaker
Richard and Steve and Wally is you know, it's a
00:31:39
Speaker
you have to do work to sort of re-evaluate and recalibrate, I think, especially when things start trending a direction that you don't like. And I, you know, I really rely on my family and friends to, and again, I just want to be very clear. I'm certainly not comparing my career to Doug in this book. I'm a very small little doc from making in Vancouver that no one cares about. But when, you know,
00:32:04
Speaker
I do rely on my family and friends to help check me when my head gets too big and I start no longer being content. Like my husband's really good at kind of checking me like, Hey, you know, you know, this much has happened in the last few years. Be proud of that before you get pissed off that you're not in LA, you know, making a $20 million Marvel film. Not that that's what I want to do 20 million, sorry, 20 billion.
00:32:27
Speaker
That's what I wanted to do, but I really think it's something, it's an ongoing process for anyone who works in the arts to constantly recalibrate and think about where they're going. Yeah, in a healthy way, yeah. Healthy way, that's the key. Okay, so what, just to ask the question explicitly, what does success look like for you? You know, I think, like I said, I'm sort of late to
00:32:54
Speaker
documentary filmmaking. I only started doing that in 2018, really, as a full-time vocation. And I had had a couple other careers prior, you know, I did go to film school, I went to SFU, graduated from SFU in 2010, moved my little butt to Toronto with all my hopes and dreams of being a narrative filmmaker. And
00:33:21
Speaker
you know, made a whole bunch of little tiny shorts. And I had some success, but after a few years, it just wasn't going where I thought it was going to go. And I got really burned out. And so when I was 25, I thought, you know what? Life's too short. I don't want to do this anymore. So I gave myself permission just to quit.
00:33:38
Speaker
And I went and did my, I pulled a 180, moved to Victoria, did a master's in dispute resolution and worked in a very different capacity for a few years until I got sucked into doing the rank and file through a bit of a happy accident. So to answer your question, again, I'm sort of new to documentary. I've been very lucky and my first two films have done
00:34:03
Speaker
reasonably well, the second much more so than the first. And so success, I don't know exactly. I think it's continuing to do something that I feel compelled and curious and excited about doing. But at the same time, and I really took this from making the last film, balancing it with life being short,
00:34:24
Speaker
and health being important and family and friends and enjoyment being important and to constantly be making sure that things are in balance. Yes, I want to keep growing and making bigger films with more money. And again, I am moving into narrative filmmaking finally, which is great, but always tempering it with, you know,
00:34:42
Speaker
how do I want my days to go? Do I want to see my family and friends? Do I want to sleep okay? Do I want to make sure I don't have a substance use issue? You know, it's, so it's just, it's that. It's making sure that I'm moving forward and getting bigger and more sustainable while also, um, staying healthy and happy. It's a great answer. Yeah. And that's a fabulous answer. It's a better answer than I could give.
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah. Well, and I ask it because it's just, I think it's such an important question. I know it's a question that I ask myself, you know, we, we know a lot of writers, a lot of aspiring writers, a lot of accomplished writers, but who have not hit that kind of success, you know, my sister's a filmmaker and I know she's kind of the, I mean, we're kind of clones in
Challenges in Canadian Documentary Filmmaking
00:35:28
Speaker
a way. Yeah. Will we ever,
00:35:29
Speaker
hit that you know even with this podcast like mark and i talk about what do we want to get out of the podcast we want you know like fifty thousand downloads or do we just want to enjoy talking to people like yourself and i think that's where we've landed cuz we really love talking you know and and thrilled that that people like you agree to come on the podcast and you know what surely is a pinnacle of success for you it's all downhill from that's right will this be even mentioned in usual probably not.
00:35:58
Speaker
No, I think that's great. I mean, you know, I'm going to bring this up just because I have to, you know, because we're talking about documentary, at least for me specifically. And one of the reasons I keep saying I'm moving into narrative and scripted directing is that documentary in Canada is and globally is not sustainable. I just read a variety article that came out of IDFA, the big documentary festival in in Europe, where they they were discussing a report about how documentary filmmakers
00:36:25
Speaker
cannot, I believe the stats of how many can actually maintain a sustainable income with documentary filmmaking is just paltry. It's absolutely paltry. And so I think in Canada, to answer that question more pointedly, success is just simply paying your rent on time.
00:36:47
Speaker
documentary. It's an absolutely unsustainable and very difficult and crowded field. And I've been very lucky. My entire career is just marked by luck and being in the right place at the right time and working with fantastic people. Again, I keep bringing up John Bolton, who produced both of these films. That relationship has been key. And so when I'm looking to the future and where I'm trying to go, it's absolutely out of documentary. I'm not shy or quiet about talking about that, because in this country, it is not a sustainable option.
00:37:16
Speaker
And yet, wasn't the documentary form pioneered by Canadians? Wasn't it John Gerson? Oh, very much. I mean, we can go back to the Flaherty in the beginning of the last century, absolutely. And I think, you know, many people describe now as being the golden age of documentary, which is great. You know, we're seeing a renewed interest in the format. We're seeing a lot of
00:37:39
Speaker
hybrid and different approaches to the genre. And we're seeing, yeah, really a renewed enthusiasm and cultural significance. And the irony is that I have a wonderful community of documentary filmmakers that I'm part of in Vancouver, and it's a slog. It's an absolute slog. Broadcasters are paying less and less.
00:38:02
Speaker
The field is getting more crowded as technology becomes more accessible. It's, you know, and I've spoken to some students before who asked me about getting into this world. And I say, you have to have a strong stomach. You have to have family support. That's just full on true. And you have to really love it and figure out a way to do it. That's not going to make you broken, depressed. It's really tough.
00:38:27
Speaker
Yeah, and that seems to apply to so many different parts of the art right now. I was going to say that so many arts are like that. The model is broken. With Spotify and Amazon, Clong, as much money from both sides, from the artists and the consumers as they possibly can. And everybody just expects to get their art for free.
00:38:46
Speaker
Yep, absolutely. And I think obviously this comes back to technology changing and the models changing and everyone has been, or the gatekeepers rather have been so slow to adapt. And unfortunately, you know, documentary specifically generally attracts, you know, enthusiastic, curious, intellectual, uh, socially engaged, politically engaged
00:39:11
Speaker
know, often active type folks. And they're the folks that are willing to make that bargain, you know, in order to work in the medium. And I just think, oh, this is such crap. It's such crap. So it makes me very sad. And again, that's why I've been very, you know, yes, I still intend to work in documentary. I have another project in development, but
00:39:33
Speaker
long-term, I don't think this is a field that's going to be well sustained in this country at least until things fundamentally change. Yeah, what a shame. Thank God Mark and I are making so much money with this podcast. Oh yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. You've retired, but I still have a date job.
00:39:54
Speaker
I teach journalism, which is a really great thing too. That's another area which is exactly the same things you've said in the documentary as true of journalism is the industry really preys on the idea that people want to do it and they're willing to sacrifice to do it.
00:40:11
Speaker
And that's not sustainable. You've got to pay people. It's predatory anyways. Yeah. I wish everyone who wants to enter this field the best of luck. I hope they have again, a supportive family and, and a backup plan.
00:40:24
Speaker
But I hope you can get enough narrative work that you can then do the occasional side documentary project because you definitely have the
Transition to Narrative Filmmaking
00:40:32
Speaker
touch. You got the talent for it. Well, thanks. I think I always will. I mean, I love, you know, I've always been a reader and I read more than I watch films by far. Um, and so that, that element of, I think curiosity, we like to hear that. Yeah. You're fans.
00:40:50
Speaker
Yeah, there you go. And just a fascination with history. I think I'll always have a foot in this medium, but again, I wish I could say it was a sustainable option for Canadian filmmakers, but I really don't think it is. Can you tell us a bit about your narrative film aspirations?
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. What I can talk about is I have a television show, a comedy that is currently in development with a wonderful Ontario company. I can't talk too much about it, but I do know a number of documentary filmmakers who have made the jump into narrative and scripted directing
00:41:29
Speaker
And it's doable, but it's challenging. And so one of the ways that I've tried to approach that is writing my own material. And so I have the show that I've written. I'm hoping that we'll have some solid updates in the new year, but it's been a real source of pleasure and a real interesting
00:41:48
Speaker
sideways lateral move and an opportunity to, from a writing standpoint, to use the skills that I have from documentary, especially because my show is based on a sort of fictionalized amalgamation character of actual folks. And so to be able to bring that research background and that, again, curiosity into a writing space and then think about how I'll be directing it after is just so much fun.
00:42:15
Speaker
Well, that does sound like fun. I've, yeah, long wanted to be a filmmaker and, but ultimately decided that writing books was cheaper and easier.
00:42:25
Speaker
Well, hey, I mean, anyone anyone could presume congratulations on writing books. That's an enormous feat. But in terms of being a filmmaker, I mean, that's I mean, that is the beauty. I keep talking about the technical revolution in sort of negative terms because of the way it's impacted the industry. And again, I say this as someone who learned on analog film, like I was the last actually graduating class out of SFU that did shoot all my projects on on Super 16.
00:42:53
Speaker
And all of that knowledge was pretty much nullified by. Yeah. It's like my journalism degree. I remember 1H tape. Yeah. You know what? Those are just the tools. I bring this up because, you know, there is benefits to the tech revolution. Anyone can make a film. Anyone can use their smartphone.
00:43:14
Speaker
and iMovie and come up with something that satisfies them creatively, will it necessarily get into a film festival if it's good enough potentially? But I, you know, I certainly, I recognize I have a bit of a negative and cynical view on a lot of things, but I certainly encourage anyone who's interested in filmmaking, be it documentary or narrative script, just do it, you can. You know, don't write an epic historical drama set in the Southern US,
00:43:44
Speaker
But, you know, think about what's at your disposal and what interests you and what you're passionate about and how can you make that happen with the resources at your disposal. Fabulous advice. Yeah. You're totally channeling Kurt Vonnegut, one of our favorite writers. Thank you. And you don't sound, you don't strike me as cynical, just a practical. Yeah. Oh, thank you.
00:44:07
Speaker
Now, just winding down, I wanted to just to go back to Doug Bennett a little bit.
Maintaining Childhood Connections
00:44:12
Speaker
So part of your film, your documentary was about reconnecting with your childhood best friend, Shay. Have you guys maintained that relationship post-documentary?
00:44:20
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And obviously it's an adult relationship. It's different than, you know, two childhood besties, but I'm so, so happy to say that yes, we're absolutely still in one another's lives. And yeah, it's great. It feels like things have finally, you know, a chapter of my life that hadn't properly been addressed has come to a nice place. So yeah, I'm really happy.
00:44:44
Speaker
It underscores as well the notion that this kind of work that you do, that we do, it isn't just about seeking success in fame or fortune, but it has other subsidiary benefits that we don't necessarily anticipate or expect that come out of them. Other rewards? Oh, absolutely. Again, that's the joy of being, I think, in the arts in any capacity is you can never fully know
00:45:10
Speaker
where something is going to take you. And again, as I mentioned, when I set out to make this film, never in my wildest dreams did I think I would be a character, that Shay would be a character, that my mother would be a character. You know, I followed the story and I responded to encouragement from, again, from John and from our broadcaster. And it landed, you know, in a really special place that had a meaningful impact on my life. And I hope that any project that I work on
00:45:38
Speaker
has that element of surprise and lasting impact in whatever facet.
00:45:45
Speaker
Mark, any final questions or thoughts? Yeah, just back to Kurt Vonnegut. I mean, that's the beauty of doing anything like this is that it makes your soul grow. That's the reason we do it. It grows our soul. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, a dear friend of mine is, you know, she works a traditional job, but she's writing her, she's written her first novel and we were talking about it last night. I said,
00:46:08
Speaker
You ever give yourself goosebumps?" And she's like, yeah, I do. And I'm like, I know. Isn't it cool? She's like, isn't it cool? I'm like, I know. It's great. It's that sort of indescribable, I don't know. I know there's lots of words for it, but that moment where you feel like you're cooking, that makes all the late rent payments and the peanut butter toast dinner is worthwhile to a point, right?
00:46:35
Speaker
That's actually how I know a chapter is done. If I finish a chapter and then reread the chapter and then I get those goosebumps, I'm like, it's done. Yeah. There's, there's one scene in the fatness that still makes me laugh. I just have to think about it a little bit and it just makes me laugh. I don't know that anyone else finds it that funny, but I sure do. Well, I, I'm sorry to say I'm not familiar with both of your work, but I'm excited to check it out after this great conversation.
00:47:02
Speaker
No obligation. You don't have to. Teresa, thank you very much for coming on our podcast and talking to us. It's a great pleasure to talk to you. It was lovely to meet you. Yeah, you guys both. Thanks for having me on.
00:47:30
Speaker
You've been listening to Recreative, a podcast about creativity. Talking to creative people from every walk of life about the art that inspires them. And you're probably wondering, how can I support this podcast? I am wondering, Joe, how can I support this podcast? I mean, apart from being on it.
00:47:46
Speaker
There's no advertisements in this podcast. There's no tip jars. There's nothing about like buying us a coffee or anything like that. But there is a way that you can support us. And what is that? It's not about supporting us. It's about supporting the people that we're talking to. I think most of the people we've talked to are artists of some description and they probably have some kind of artistic product that you could buy. And if you enjoyed it, maybe you could review it for them.
00:48:10
Speaker
Oh yeah. But maybe us too? Yeah, you know what? Us too. It wouldn't hurt. They could buy our books. And how do they find us? Recreative.ca. Don't forget the hyphen. There's a hyphen in there. Re-creative. I took your line, sorry. Well, because I stole your line. So yes, re-creative.ca. Janks. Oh yeah, you heard that. I stole your line again. As well, if you like what you've just heard, you could consider subscribing to the podcast. And leave a comment if you like it. Thanks for listening. Spread the word.