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Finding Empowerment in Disability: Raj Mahapatra, Senior Counsel at Wilson Sonsini
106 Plays11 months ago
How do you turn one of the most difficult moments in your life into the motivation that guides you to make the world a better place?
When Raj Mahapatra received his axial spondyloarthritis diagnosis, he was told he would spend his life in a wheelchair. Decades later, he is an accomplished long-distance runner, seasoned general counsel, tech start-up business operator, mission-driven climate advocate, and chairman of the charity that makes life better for people suffering from his condition worldwide.
Listen as Raj recounts his journey to leadership, explains the importance of advocating for your personal needs, and shares why it is so important for GCs to never stop asking “why?”
Read detailed summary: https://www.spotdraft.com/podcast/episode-26
Topics:
Introduction: 1:20
Receiving a life-changing diagnosis in your twenties: 2:45
Changing your perspective on work by living with a disability: 6:27
Incorporating charity into your running practice: 13:17
Going beyond legal roles and into operator positions: 20:41
Fundraising as General Counsel and Head of Intellectual Property at Cervest Limited: 24:45
Reflecting on the experience of building and losing a business as a lawyer: 32:13
Resetting after a difficult work experience: 35:58
Joining Wilson Sonsini Goodrich & Rosati as Senior Counsel: 42:19
Building a meaningful life: 51:28
Connect with us:
Raj Mahapatra - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rajmahapatra/
Tyler Finn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tylerhfinn
SpotDraft - https://www.linkedin.com/company/spotdraft
SpotDraft is a leading CLM platform that solves your end-to-end contract management issues. Visit https://www.spotdraft.com to learn more.
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Transcript
The Isolating Role of General Counsel
00:00:00
Speaker
a GC's role inside a company is really lonely. And I think a number of people, you know, on the abstract talked about this before about the role, the way you sit in things. But also, you know, if you think about the stakeholders, the GC has, I mean, you'll have reporting lines, you know, the CLO, the GC will have a reporting line. And usually, the reporting line will go arguably, you know, should go to the CEO, but sometimes it goes to the COO, sometimes it goes to the CFO.
Spotdraft: Streamlining Contracts
00:00:28
Speaker
Before we get started with today's episode, I want to tell you about Spotdraft. If you spend hours every week drafting and reviewing contracts, worrying about being blindsided by renewals, or if you just want to streamline your contracting process, let's talk about an end-to-end AI-powered system that'll save you time. Spotdraft is a contract lifecycle management system.
00:00:50
Speaker
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Introducing Raj: Legal and Tech Background
00:01:20
Speaker
What can running 50, 100, even 200 miles on trails across mountains and through valleys teach you about navigating adversity, managing pain, and, yes, gratitude? Are there lessons for your life and career?
00:01:36
Speaker
Today, we have my friend Raj joining us. Raj has a distinguished career as a lawyer in both London and New York City in private practice. More recently, he's held GC, CFO, head of business affairs, COO, and other similar roles at tech companies.
00:01:56
Speaker
He recently joined Wilson Sansini, the law firm, as a senior executive advisor, which is a pretty cool gig that we're going to talk about today.
Facing Ankylosing Spondylitis Diagnosis
00:02:05
Speaker
And he's been actively involved in a number of charities following a diagnosis that we're going to talk about as well, including serving as the chairman of the National Axial Spondyloarthritis Society and as an executive committee member of their International Federation.
00:02:24
Speaker
Raj, you have a pretty amazing story to tell. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Tyler. Thank you for inviting me on. Well done for pronouncing Axios bundle arthritis. Thank you. We will refer to it as Ax Spa going forward, which is a little bit easier for me as the interviewer. Usually, I start with a warm-up question or two, but actually, I know you don't need that, and I really want to get sort of right into it.
00:02:53
Speaker
We're going to start talking about some of the personal things that you've navigated before we talk about the professional. Both of these will really touch on, I think, the idea of perseverance. Tell us first about when you receive your diagnosis for Axe Spa. We are going back a few years now, Tyler. This is going back to when I was 21 years old. Actually, it was just before my 21st birthday.
00:03:18
Speaker
I was I've been in pain for about five years by that point and had problems moving problems with running generally activity. I was a sprinter at school. I was at one point the fifth fastest 400 meter runner in the UK. So it was a pretty big thing. And actually, and I went from that to not being able to run at all, literally in space of six months.
00:03:46
Speaker
And after a few years of pushing for kind of advice and treatments and trying to work out what was going on, I was taken in to see a rheumatologist. And the rheumatologist sat me down and he said, I think you've got ankylosing spondylitis. I'll come on to the difference in a minute. Ankylosing spondylitis, based on where you are at the moment, you know, the severity you're experiencing, I think you'll probably be in a wheelchair in less than 10 years.
00:04:15
Speaker
And the best of luck to you on this one. I'll see you again in, you know, a year's time for the next round of what happens. We kind of sat my wife, like she was girlfriend at the time, but my wife said, hang on a minute. You've just told him he's going to be in a wheelchair in less than 10 years. I think you need to spend a bit of time and explain this to him.
Navigating University with Disability
00:04:42
Speaker
And he swung open the door to the waiting room and he showed us all the people waiting in the waiting room. He said, everyone is waiting for my time. I don't have time for this. And he left. That's brutal. I mean, that's really, I mean, that's really, that's tough.
00:04:59
Speaker
It was it was really brutal and and what was really interesting is that you know I've had you mentioned I've been the chair of the national charity now and the and the trustee of International Federation I have learned so much more about this condition in the last well since I got diagnosed I've learned a lot more but even interacting with you know the hundreds of thousands of people I've interacted with over the years now in my in those different roles and
00:05:25
Speaker
I have learned that what he told me then just wasn't right. It wasn't that he got it wrong for me. It was just incorrect. And I think we can come on to this a little bit later on in our conversation, I'm sure. But it was a really interesting, was it what I needed to hear?
00:05:44
Speaker
I don't think he was thinking that. I think he just got it wrong. But the diagnosis was, in the time correct, it was ankylosing spondylitis. More recently, we're recognizing it by its umbrella term. An umbrella is a wider distinction. Ankylosing is when your body or spine fuses, and various other joints confuse. Axial spondylarthritis is the inflammation in the joints before your spine fuses.
00:06:13
Speaker
I see one's a progression of the other of a sort. Yes. And you don't necessarily, and you don't necessarily progress to act and close and spondylitis. I see. Interesting. Um, what were those first few months, right? Or even maybe the first year or two, like of, of living with, well, maybe what I would characterize as a disability, but do you think of it as a disability? What was that early time like for you?
00:06:41
Speaker
Imagine being told that you're going to be in a wheelchair. And it's there's an inevitability about it, you are in pain, and you know that you will live with that pain forever. Everything you read says that pain is forever. Now, you've just got to you have no control over that. You've been told that you need to do moderate exercise, but you do not know what moderate exercise looks like, because you're a sprinter. You're a, you know, you don't do moderate. So what does moderate look like?
00:07:11
Speaker
All these things come into play. I was unable to walk without crutches for five years. Throughout this period of diagnosis and everything else in the immediate aftermath, I was unable to walk without crutches. For my 21st birthday, my girlfriend, my wife gave me a walking stick for my 21st birthday.
00:07:32
Speaker
to help me move more successfully. And it was it was a really, you know, with all those things, and having been a person who was kind of at the top of his game when it comes to athletics, to be in that situation,
Workplace Accommodations and Acceptance
00:07:46
Speaker
looking back on it, I think the best way of describing is depressed. Yeah. And everything was a challenge, you know, you, you, you kind of got to, you've got to look at those things and say, Okay, where are the wins, as well?
00:08:02
Speaker
And so you're looking constantly for again, how do I, you know, what do I consider a win? So now I'm moving slowly, I took a ticket, you know, I think the Ferris Bueller put it correctly, you know, you know, you, you got to stop and look around when just a while ago, you'll dismiss it, you know, life. And I love that. I mean, I love that idea of you got to stop and look around. And it made me force me to stop and look around at what was going on in the world around me. And it just was a far more interesting time as a result of that.
00:08:31
Speaker
I can't imagine having to go through a diagnosis like that and a really major adjustment to your lifestyle and the ability to do a lot of the things that you're passionate about or that you value. Then you think about, okay, I have to go through all of that, but I still have to provide for myself, right? And I still have to work.
00:08:51
Speaker
What was it like to work? I think having sort of high powered legal roles is tough enough as it is. Did that experience change your view at all on the sort of accommodations that you think employers should offer? Did you have to really sort of radically change the way that you went about your day-to-day work life too?
00:09:14
Speaker
Bear in mind I got this diagnosis while I was at university and so I lived through this experience of all these challenges while at university. And because I was effectively disabled and able to walk properly, I had a disabled badge that friends used to put in their cars to give me lifts around the place. So I was immediately tuned into the idea that actually
00:09:39
Speaker
There are ways in which you can get allowances for things. You just need to be able to put your hand up and say, I've got an issue here. Can you help? And, you know, and these things, you know, you find ways by putting your hand up, people will make allowances for you more often than not. Now, the other thing is that where we work, you're effectively being paid for your brain. You know, it's not about
00:10:05
Speaker
you know your physical ability to do things and lift things and everything else if i was in those industries i think it'd be very different my experience would be very different but you know there are things happen in my first role in my first legal role i was at northern rose and um
00:10:23
Speaker
I don't know if you remember those kind of funny broken keyboards that were split in the middle. I was finding problems typing all the typing I was doing. And I was getting repetitive strain injury in my wrists. And it's a thing, you know, people with axial spondylarthritis get repetitive strain injury more easily.
00:10:40
Speaker
And so I just asked the tech desk if I could get one of these keyboards. And they were, well, no, you know, we can put one on order for you, it'll take two or three weeks to come through to you. So I phoned out the HR team and said, I've got this condition is called axial spongal arthritis. I can pet a strain really easily. I could do with getting one of these keyboards to help. Yeah. And it took them approximately 12 minutes to get one to my desk at that point. And it's
00:11:11
Speaker
And I guess working for a law firm, they understand that there are liabilities at play here that if they don't take the right accommodations, things will happen. But also what I've found is that for me, I don't sit well. I mean, you may notice I'm standing now and I move an awful lot. And if I start moving and I'm out of focus, please excuse me, Tyler, you know, I move a lot when I'm talking. And a lot of that has to do with sitting still hurts.
00:11:38
Speaker
I don't sleep well either, and I don't sleep well because it hurts. Staying still for periods of time hurts, standing still for periods of time hurts. And so I keep moving. And so I will be in a meeting and I will explain as we sit down, as everyone sits at the table to meet, I will say, look, if this is going to be longer than sort of 15, 20 minutes, do you expect me to get up and move around a bit in the room? Because I will start hurting. I'll get grumpy and that won't work for anyone. So just I will move around the room.
00:12:07
Speaker
And it's funny that when you break the ice like that, and people understand that you're just speaking honestly, that this is, you know, you're making you're saying these things to make it life easier for everyone in the room. It does work. I have found that actually, you know, like I said before, working for law firms, and working in the legal sector, people understand that they have got obligations to fill.
00:12:34
Speaker
I think over the years, people have become to accept that people aren't always the same as well. And so there's a difference between that the legal obligation to now accepting there's difference in people. And I think it's a lot easier now than maybe it was when I first started out in my career to make these, you know, put your hand up and say, I've got an issue.
Charity Work and Awareness Efforts
00:12:54
Speaker
But certainly, I would encourage anyone who's got an issue to just put their hand up and say, look, I've got this, whether you want to call it disability or otherwise, and I'll
00:13:03
Speaker
I think it's worthwhile talking about the word disability for a moment because for me and I think you talked about what I do and you talk about what I do, you talk about running and this side of things and running 50, 100, 200 miles. When you started to embark on these longer distances,
00:13:22
Speaker
I'm sure you were motivated by bettering yourself, having a better relationship with pain, feeling like you had control over your body again. You also did a lot of it for charity. And you've raised quite a bit of money and gotten deeply involved in a couple of different charities that I mentioned at the outset, both at the national level and also on an international level.
00:13:49
Speaker
Tell us about why you chose to incorporate charity into this, what you're sort of hoping to get out of that experience or give back through that experience and what your experience has been like growing into a leader at these organizations. Sometimes you find yourself in a moment where you just go, I am
00:14:15
Speaker
I'm about to embark on this ridiculously challenge. And when I was first diagnosed, let's go back to when I was first diagnosed, when I was first diagnosed, there was no internet. Okay, so let's just sort of frame it so we get it. So you can understand, I got this diagnosis of ankylosing spondylitis. I didn't know how to spell it. I didn't even know how to pronounce it. It's taken you took a little while to practice how to pronounce that. You know,
00:14:45
Speaker
you get this diagnosis, and you think, okay, now what? And, and the now what was to go and discover it all about all for yourself. I was about to do this Bob Graham challenge for the first time. And I thought, well, I could be raising money for a charity here while doing this. And the idea of ankylosing spondylitis or axial spondylothritis was not even in my head. And my wife just said, look, you know, you've got this condition, let's Google it and see if there's a charity.
00:15:15
Speaker
And sure enough, there was a charity and they were doing amazing things, you know, and they're about raising profiles. I thought if this charity was, you know, had more resources, people wouldn't have to go through what I went through. Actually, you know, this is a charity I can throw my, you know, throw my, my running behind, certainly, let's start with that.
00:15:38
Speaker
And so I decided that I would raise money for the charity. And when I phoned up and said, this is what I'm doing, they just thought you are a lunatic, you know, people with this condition don't do this kind of thing. Actually, what's been interesting is I'm discovering more and more people with this condition aren't doing this sort of thing. But that's another thing. Interesting. I think more and more people, I mean, it's a small handful, but still, but it is there. People are doing exercise with this condition, which is the important thing.
00:16:10
Speaker
I got involved then in fundraising for the charity and I raised a good few thousand pounds at the time. And as a thank you, they invited me to an event in Parliament that they were hosting.
00:16:24
Speaker
And I got to meet some of the other people there and they'd done their research on me. And they said, look, we'd love you to contemplate the idea of standing to be chair of this organization. You're a lawyer, you understand the machinations of governance and good governance. Would you consider this as well? And you also have done fundraising, so you understand fundamentally what we do and why we do it.
00:16:48
Speaker
and I got involved in those conversations and six months later I found myself being elected as chair of this organization. It is so different to
00:17:02
Speaker
to suddenly go from I am raising money for charity to I am now giving my time to charity in that way. And what's been wonderful about it is that because of the way I run and operated my life for the last 20 years involved in startups and things like that, every organization I've been involved with has just gone, yeah, you do what you do. You know, no one's ever questioned the time I give, because they know that they get the work I need to deliver on the other side still.
00:17:33
Speaker
You know, it's not like you have to clock in clock out. I don't, you know, so it's, you know, again, you know, we make the choices we make, and suddenly, all these things line up, and you can give this, you can give your time to that. I then got involved with the Axial Spondylal Arthritis International Federation. And that's a federation of charities. So we are a charity that represents charities.
00:17:56
Speaker
And through that charity network, we represent 75 million people globally, roughly. That's a big number of people who we represent. And as a result of that representation, what we find is people will listen to what we say.
00:18:19
Speaker
You know, when I say people, I'm talking about regulatory authorities, pharmaceutical companies, they listen to what we have to say, our opinion counts. And then I found myself getting involved in research projects. I've written papers, I've been co-authored, I've co-authored 34 papers now, I think.
00:18:47
Speaker
been cited well over 200 times for that writing. And it's really interesting. It gives you a different, again, it's a different relationship with your condition. But it's also a different relationship with what your purpose is in life. You know, I'm not just a lawyer. You know, I'm not just a person who does business. I'm not all about making money for someone. I'm actually giving my time back now and I'm trying to change other people's relationship with their condition.
00:19:17
Speaker
you know, I never want anyone to go through the diagnosis that I went through. I don't believe it happens now. But every now and then, you do hear these things. The average diagnosis time for axial spar globally still is well over 10 years. In the UK, it's still eight and a half we're doing we can UK to reduce that time.
Transitioning from Legal to Business
00:19:39
Speaker
I was lucky I had a five year delay to diagnosis. You know, but that's too long. We have a moment in Devon.
00:19:49
Speaker
It is with pain. Yeah. Pain. Remember, this is what I'm talking about. Yeah. And we are currently in the UK on a huge drive to reduce that time within the next few years down to under a year. We've got a plan and we're actioning it and some hospitals are already seeing they're getting a diagnosis time in those areas down to less than a year. And we're running that out nationwide at the moment. That's what's happened in the last
00:20:19
Speaker
you know, well, I mean, I've been chairing this organisation for coming up to 10 years now. So I'm proud of what I have been able to help drive here.
00:20:28
Speaker
I think we'll come back to some of these lessons of ultra running of your relationship with exercise. But I want to ask you a few questions about your professional career, your day job. I think Raj, you've had the opportunity to move beyond just strictly legal roles and really step into operator positions over the course of your career.
00:20:54
Speaker
you're managing different functions, really integral to the whole operation of the business. I guess my question for you is, how did you go about that? I think there's a lot of folks who are listening who might want to grow in their roles as well, if you have any advice for them about how they can do it too. Got it. Now, that's really interesting. I think that we often think about careers as a linear thing and go like,
00:21:22
Speaker
you know, this or that, depending on which way you're looking at the screen. Let's go back a few years and go back to the 1980s. And in the 1980s, there was this way of talking between universities called the Janet system. And the Janet system was the joint academic network
00:21:47
Speaker
and it was a universities to university communication and it was basically the precursor to the internet. I had a school that was lucky enough to be on the Janet system and I played with Janet system in the 1980s. I got to talk to my cousins around the world in different countries via Janet and so the letters I was writing to them I would be getting responses within two weeks suddenly I was getting responses within 24 hours and that was amazing.
00:22:14
Speaker
Then I got to university and I was playing with Janet for real at that point. And then again, the internet didn't really exist. And then in 1995, when I left university, I got involved in the startup, my first startup at that point. So I did my law degree and I went straight into a startup because actually I understood computers, I've been playing with them for the last decade. So yeah, let's, let's play this game of getting involved in the startup.
00:22:41
Speaker
And so I did the startup thing and I understood fundamentally what it took to run a business for a year. At the end of that year, I decided to carry on my legal journey.
00:22:53
Speaker
And the guys who I went and did the startup with sold the business. And they did okay out of that. And I did my first lesson in life, which was take equity. But I didn't at that point. But actually, what it meant was that the lens I looked through everything from that point onwards, was there's a commercial lens to everything. And if you don't understand what is going on commercially,
00:23:21
Speaker
you're missing the point. And for a lot of lawyers that there are some lawyers out there who are technically amazing. Yeah, I think there are technically amazing lawyers. And then there are lawyers like me, who I wouldn't describe myself as technically amazing. But I would describe myself as one of the commercial people, most commercial people I know.
00:23:41
Speaker
But I think both need to exist. Sure. Yes. You know, and rarely will you find someone who is really technical and commercial at the same time. I don't think I've met anyone who really does both those things. And maybe that's and that's fine. You know, that's just one of those things. When you're commercial, then you are constantly looking for the why.
00:24:06
Speaker
Why is someone doing this? Why is the business operating this way? What are they trying to achieve? And as a GC, when you move into a GC role, you need to understand why a team is operating a certain way? Why HR asking those questions? Why is management wanting this? Why does the board want these things? And if you are not fundamentally interested in answering all those questions, you're going to really struggle as a
Social Impact and Climate Ventures
00:24:30
Speaker
GC. Yes.
00:24:32
Speaker
It's a really small step from understanding the why to really getting into the skin of what's going on in that department and therefore being able to take a roll-up in that team as a result of it. At your most recent company, Servest, which is in the clean tech space, which is pretty cool, climate space, you've been through, I would say, highs, fundraising, bringing a product to market.
00:25:00
Speaker
Also Lowe's, right? Like challenging fundraising environments. The company is currently in administration or for, you know, our us friends bankruptcy, right? Yeah. Which you've been deeply involved in managing. I've got a few questions for you on some of the maybe recent challenges you've dealt with, but, but tell us first about the journey and the product and, you know, what you, what you hoped to, to achieve with the business, which you helped start.
00:25:28
Speaker
So let's go back to the business before Sylvester. There was a company called GADCO. And GADCO was a social impact project in Africa set up by a couple of guys who understood that fundamentally they wanted to change the way in which rice was farmed in Ghana. And rice was being farmed in Ghana and exported, even though the staple food in Ghana was rice. So there was an insanity about that as far as they were concerned.
00:25:59
Speaker
No, exactly. So how do you change that relationship? So there was a big endeavor to change this relationship with rice in Ghana and to do it in a social impact way that you can involve local farmers, local communities and help them benefit
00:26:18
Speaker
differently from the way they grow rice. So we would sell seeds to local farmers, we would take the crop off and train them how to grow that seed. And at the end of the day, rather than bartering with them to get the lowest price off them, we would pay them the price that we would get at market. Got it. Okay, so we would get the price at market, we would tell them we pay them the same price. And by paying them the same price, they got a better
00:26:47
Speaker
standard of living off the back of that. It was a great project. Loved it. Absolutely superb. We had investors from around the world investing and we had German investors, American investors. We had to set this clever system where we were investing through the Netherlands into Ghana because there was a bilateral investment treaty between the two countries to help protect the investment. It was a really interesting project from a legal point of view as well as a social impact point of view as well. We were rolling on that. It was going very well. And then we had
00:27:17
Speaker
a hundred year weather event. Hmm. I can't tell you, I can't remember what it was. And that sounds weird to say that, but actually we knew we had enough resources. So the next season came round, you know, and the crops are going well. The next, and by the way, the hundred year weather came and it wiped out a season worth of crops. The next season came round and we had another hundred year event. Oh, wow.
00:27:47
Speaker
It was a different 100-year event, but it was another 100-year event. But that's okay. We had reserves. We went round again for another season. The next year, we had another 100-year event. Now, the 100-year events were high precipitation, drought, and we had high winds, which actually caused a lot of damage on the silos and things like that we had on the farm. 300-year events.
00:28:18
Speaker
And we were talking to scientists and climate scientists, and they were saying to us, this isn't 300 year events. This is a trend that they go, no, no, these are 100 year events. And we thought, no, this is rubbish.
00:28:34
Speaker
We sold that business very proudly. I can say that that business still operates today under a new ownership and still running a social impact way in Ghana and still doing great things. I love that. That's a great thing to know that you've achieved something in that way. But what we've done, what we then did was, I say we did, the founder of that business went away and said, actually, I am not satisfied with the 100 year event excuse.
00:29:03
Speaker
you know, 100 year weather event excuse. So he engaged with scientists and with specifically with statisticians and said, Is there a better way of looking at these problems? If I told you there were 300 year events, what would you tell me? And he said, Well, I will tell you it's a trend. And go, Yeah, okay, good. So if it's a trend, how do we look at it instead?
00:29:24
Speaker
And so we started using machine learning, artificial intelligence, you know, to make climate predictions. Actually, we started off with in season weather predictions, and then we moved on to longer distance climate predictions. And the product we produced, ultimately that we sold, we started selling to companies was the ability to predict across various climate markers, the impact of climate anywhere in the world,
00:29:55
Speaker
down to a GPS location up to 80 years in the future. Wow. And we model ambitious, but it's not even ambitious. It's what we did. Yeah. You know, it's we achieved that. Yeah. And we achieved it using machine learning
00:30:18
Speaker
various other artificial intelligence approaches. And so top of that, various basis statistical modeling, etc. to do this. Early in 2022, where we were going for our series B financing, we had a term sheet for 80 million on the desk, and a valuation that we were, we weren't quite happy with. So we went to negotiate it.
00:30:48
Speaker
We negotiated that term sheet, we agreed in principle on the new valuation. And then Russia invaded the Ukraine, as many people know, the markets went nuts. And as a result of the markets going nuts, things started changing very rapidly. And the deal didn't close. The deal was rescinded.
00:31:12
Speaker
and various other things come off the back of it and you just find yourself in a different process at that point and that's where we got to. But fundamentally we were building something amazing. The good news is I think as you mentioned we went into administration last year and going into administration what happens is
00:31:34
Speaker
in the UK is you find a way of selling the assets. Um, and I'm really pleased to say that the, again, the assets of the business have been sold to another company. And I can see now, even now they are still using fundamentally what we built called earth scan and they're doing great things with it now. Um, and it was really good that some of the team members went across with that and supporting that business too. Right. The intellectual property is still really being leveraged.
00:32:02
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. All those years of experience and effort are not sitting on a shelf somewhere. It was really important for us that he didn't just sit there and die.
Lessons in Business and Emotional Toll
00:32:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:13
Speaker
When you think about that sort of whole journey through the full sort of life cycle of a business, I'm curious if there are things that you might do differently if you had a chance to do them over again, or maybe sort of more to the point, if you have advice on mistakes that might have been made as a part of the process that others would be able to avoid if they
00:32:40
Speaker
had the benefit of having lived through it like you did. I was worried you'd ask me this question. Because as you can imagine, it's quite alive. These are live things that we're talking about in some ways. Yeah. I would actually also I think that rather than mistakes made, let's talk about learnings instead. Sure. Things I've learned. I have learned
00:33:09
Speaker
One of the biggest things I've learned is to really reflect on the question of why. You know, why are you doing this? But not just why you're doing this. Why are the other people joining you on the journey? Why are the other stakeholders joining on the journey? Why are investors in joining you on this journey? The why? And the why can't just be because you're going to make the money. Sure.
00:33:35
Speaker
There's got to be more to the why than just we're going to make some money along the way here. At Sylvester we had the most amazing team of people.
00:33:45
Speaker
The why was they were mission driven. They understood fundamentally we were trying to change the way in which climate was being perceived by the world and city by businesses. I try to get that perception right. We believe we can move the needle on the way in which businesses tackled climate issues. The next thing, which I think most people probably don't want to talk about, but I think is actually really important,
00:34:15
Speaker
as a GC is who are the people who are going to run into the burning building with you? Yes. Have an idea always that who are these people that have got the why aligned in some way that when everything is going wrong that you can rely on them to either have your back or be right by your side.
00:34:40
Speaker
And what's interesting is that as you're hiring, you should be thinking about this. You know, who are the people who are going to be willing to come into that room with you? And you think you'll get it right. And I think this, I would say I thought I did a good job. And I would say I was asking people to stay outside the building when things were going all haywire.
00:35:06
Speaker
Because there were some people who really didn't, who wanted to be involved and they didn't need to be involved in those moments. But then there were also other people who surprised me by their lack of presence in those moments. And that's not just at Sylvester. I mean, let's be really straight. In this journey of ups and downs I've had over the last 25 years, I've been involved in startups. There's been plenty of other moments along the way where you just go, okay, I've learned this.
00:35:34
Speaker
And then you realize, did I learn it? Because I just did the same thing again this time. Let's fine tune it, work out, and try to look for the micro changes you need to make along the way to fine tune it. I thought we did quite well with Sylvester in the end. But that, but he really came home with that burning building idea. Who are going to run into that burning building with you? It's really important to get that right. That's really interesting.
00:35:58
Speaker
How do you, you, you go through that whole sort of experience, you see the whole life cycle of the company and then you, you deal with the moment when you need people to come into the burning building with you as you go through administration and, you know, sort of try to, try to salvage the business the best that you can. How do you reset after an experience like that? And, and I think more to that, it sounds like you're deeply passionate about the climate space.
00:36:26
Speaker
Are you able to stay involved in it in any way? Or did you feel like you needed to move on? Yeah. What was the reset moment like for you? I think the first thing to do is realize in those moments that what you are going through is hard. You know, and it's really easy as lawyers to play the dispassionate card. Oh, I was just doing my job.
00:36:57
Speaker
Oh, I was just doing, you know, what was needed in the moment, of course, you know, but actually, it's not that you can't think like that you've got to realize, especially when you're in GC in a company, these are people that you know, you appreciate, you know,
00:37:14
Speaker
I mean, I would go as far as say, you know, you've built such good ratios, you love these people in the room with you, you know, this is a journey and you love the mission, you've been on this journey. And suddenly the whole thing is falling apart in front of you. There is a level of PTSD, you know, to these things. And you have to recognize that post trauma, you know, you've got to give yourself a moment to recover from it.
00:37:39
Speaker
And what was interesting for me was I thought that I was fine because I was going through the motion of doing all the things that had to be done. And I can see around me lots of other people getting really angry and really upset and very cross with what was happening. And I was getting on with the job that was in front of me. And I thought, OK, well, I'm dealing with this really well.
00:38:07
Speaker
And then, come June, my role in the administration process was complete. Everyone else had left the building, you know, well before that. And my role was complete at that point. And I came off that call. And I wept. You know, because actually, finally, the enormity of what been going on, you know, I got to be with it, instead of having to be on delivery the whole time.
00:38:38
Speaker
And my wife just said to me, you know, actually, you need a break. Everyone around me was like, you need a break. We've never seen you like this before. You just need a break.
Advisory Roles in Tackling Climate Issues
00:38:49
Speaker
Yeah. So I spent three months straight off the bat. Yeah, three months before I even opened my computer again. At that point, I closed my computer and then walked away.
00:38:59
Speaker
I had to open my computer again because charity called and I was asked to go to Montenegro and do a presentation to a whole group of patient organizations who were thinking about ways in which to create strategy documents for their charities. And so I went to talk to them about strategizing as a charity. And that gave me a reason to get them back online again. A good friend of mine mentioned on LinkedIn that
00:39:28
Speaker
One of the organizations that she had been involved in was going to open up their doors for a second cohort of experts to go in and it's called Climate Vine.
00:39:41
Speaker
And Climatevine is an organization that brings together experts who have to be interviewed to be part of the organization. And then you pay for the privilege of being chosen as well. And what you do is these are all people who have got expertise, who want to then apply that expertise on addressing climate issues. And that, you know,
00:40:09
Speaker
is what i've been doing for the last however many years is being addressing climate issues and working on it and i've got you know these skills from being a gc from working across organizations from working in the tech space but also having also been involved in pr agencies having been involved in brand agencies having been involved in
00:40:32
Speaker
farming in Africa as well from all these different ideas. I've got a very diverse experience I can bring to the table when it comes to climate. And so what I've done is I got involved with that organization in September and through that I've been helping very deliberately position myself as somebody who will just help move people along in their journey to create businesses or opportunities to address climate.
New Role at Wilson Sansini
00:41:03
Speaker
and just giving my time over there. And it's been fascinating to see the kind of projects people are working on, the way in which people are looking and they're trying to address climate in different ways, coming from a banking background or a consulting background, or they're coming from the background of operating data centers or all these different things. And they're coming into a room together and they're brainstorming how they apply their knowledge to these things.
00:41:34
Speaker
There's one group I've been heavily involved in who's taking all the knowledge within Climatevine and creating an AI wrapper over it so that people within Climatevine can then tap into it and say, I've got this idea. Has anyone talked about it? Can you give me some more information to help me support this? And then who do I need to talk to next? And the AI wrapper will basically give them all the information in Climatevine, the videos they need to watch,
00:42:02
Speaker
which, where in the video to look for it, and then who are the key people within Climatevine Network, you can help them do the next step. And we're building that at the moment within Climatevine, because it's the right thing to do, not because it's about making money, but because literally it's the right thing to do.
00:42:19
Speaker
In addition to that sort of advisory work, which sounds really fulfilling, you're taking on, or you've just stepped into this new role with Wilson Sansini. Tell us a little bit about that. I think it sounds pretty cool. So I've had the pleasure of working with Wilson for a number of years now because of Sylvester and they were our corporate lawyers with that. They've got to see how I operate. They understand who I am and what I do.
00:42:49
Speaker
They approached me quite early after I left Sylvester back in summer and they said, have a break and then come and talk to us because we've got an idea.
00:43:00
Speaker
And they said, look, we'd like you to come on board as a kind of special advisor. Special advisor, they said. And I was like, what do you mean by special advisor? He said, well, we can see you working across a whole bunch of things, but actually, you know, you have these, you have a very distinct insight into how business operates. You've got experience on tech side of things, you've got experience on climate and clean tech.
00:43:29
Speaker
you know, so actually, you know, we, you know, and as you know, basically, Wilson are kind of, as far as I'm concerned, it's a very strange thing that, you know, when you are at university, and you're qualifying as a, then you're going to law and you think, okay, where do you want to work? And you hear about this law firm in California, doing crazy things in the mid 90s.
00:43:57
Speaker
and just getting involved in startups in a really entrepreneurial way. And you're thinking, what law firm does that? And then that law firm approaches you and says, we think that you've got what it takes to work with us. You get the jackpot. You know, who gets a career where they get approached by the law firm that you aspire to work for 30 years earlier and knocking on your door saying, let's have a conversation.
00:44:27
Speaker
So I get to play in their tech transactions team. I get to play in their clean tech team as well. And I also get to be part of their exec advisor team. I think Wilson is kind of unique in this area where they actually have a small dedicated team of people
00:44:51
Speaker
who have been GCs, have been lawyers, they've been GCs, they've got acquired skills on managing businesses from that lens as well. And they basically say to their clients, here are a group of exec advisors who can help you think about problems, not necessarily from a legal point of view,
00:45:17
Speaker
actually, it's actually about how you think about problems, how you rationalize the issues you are facing in with a non legal brain, you know, we talked about before that idea, you've got these really great technical lawyers, and you got these guys who are a bit more commercial over here, is leaning into that side far greater, and actually going off the other end of saying, you're not even thinking about from a legal point of view, you know, sometimes you're thinking actually, but that's just
00:45:45
Speaker
Don't do it like that.
Supporting General Counsel Roles
00:45:46
Speaker
This is not how you negotiate a contract. This is how you negotiate a contract in a conversation. Giving people different tools to apply and try in situations they're facing.
00:45:59
Speaker
It's going to be interesting for me because after 20 odd years of being a GC and in-house and working on the company side to go back into private practice and not being under the skin of companies in the way I've been in the past,
00:46:15
Speaker
and approaching it from a different way. But actually, I've had the pleasure of the last couple of months just gently being involved in exec advisory with a couple of different companies that approached me and said, look, we know you're out there and doing things. Could you do the exec advisory for us? And actually, I'm finding it quite rewarding already doing those things. So to be able to do it with Wilson is just amazing.
00:46:38
Speaker
How do you see this sort of experience that you've had, you know, with a whole host of different stakeholders, right? In the boardroom, as a solo GC, how do you see that helping you serve GCs who might be looking for more than just traditional legal advice? Tell us about, you know, maybe some of the things that you hope to advise on in this new role. Ooh, hope to advise on. I mean,
00:47:07
Speaker
I hope to be presented with things I've not even contemplated. I mean, really, I mean, this is where, you know, one of the joys of working as a GC is no two days are the same. You're not doing the same documentation. The changes are always different. There's always interesting stuff going on. You know, you could end up with a conversation with someone where it's, you know, we've got
00:47:35
Speaker
an investor that we've been talking to you for six months. I'm thinking of an example that is kind of live in the back of my mind from a conversation I had with someone. But you know, an investor that's misaligned to our long term goals, but they've got cash on the table today. So what do we do?
00:47:58
Speaker
You know, and my answer is run away. Yeah, you don't need their cash. You know, think about it. But actually, but to be able to talk about it in in different ways, and actually addressing those kind of things, which are not mainline legal questions, but actually, these are the questions that, you know, need to be addressed sometimes. The other thing, which is a really important part of an exec advisory role is that
00:48:26
Speaker
a GC's role inside a company is really lonely. It's a really lonely role. And I think a number of people, you know, on the abstract talked about this before about the role, the way you sit in things. But also, you know, if you think about the stakeholders that the GC has, I mean, you'll have reporting lines, you know, the CLO, the GC will have a reporting line. And usually, the reporting line will go
00:48:49
Speaker
arguably, you know, should go to the CEO, sometimes it goes to the COO, sometimes it goes to the CFO. Not sure about that ever. But anyway, you've got these different reporting lines that go on. But actually, a reporting line isn't who you are responsible to as a GC. As a GC, your responsibility is to the to the shareholders to the board. And then in moments where things are getting tough,
00:49:20
Speaker
It goes to the creditors and who are the creditors in those moments. And then you've got to look at the creditor list and you're going to say in the creditor list, do you have, you know, do you have, um, do you have, um, senior, senior lenders? Do you know, if you have senior lenders, are they secured lenders? A secured creditor looks different to a regular creditor. Now, where do your responsibilities lie? And then you've got employees who, if you don't play your cards right, they become creditors too.
00:49:49
Speaker
And all those things are interplays, which actually are really challenging things to contemplate alone.
Living a Meaningful Life
00:49:57
Speaker
And what I really hope is that there's no GC out there who feels like they need to go through that alone, that they can actually say,
00:50:06
Speaker
you know, and I invite anyone who, you know, whether they're a client of Wilson or not, I'd invite anyone who's going through a challenge like that, pick up the phone and talk to me, because I will help you, regardless of whatever's going on. And, you know, as far as I'm concerned, no one should go through that alone. You know, and don't expect me to charge you a penny for helping you out on those things. You should never be in a situation like that and have to think how do I deal with it?
00:50:31
Speaker
These are big challenges to face alone and how you juggle those different interests is difficult. I had a particular moment in a previous existence where I had to phone the Law Society up because I had one of those moments where it was unclear where my responsibilities as a GC lie. And I talked to the Law Society and their response was, well, when you figure out the answer, let us know what you did.
00:50:59
Speaker
That is how complicated some of the challenges that GCs have because we sit inside and we see things from so many different angles. I really want to help people in those moments too. It's not just about doing amazing things and helping people build amazing businesses. Sometimes it's about making sure that they can just maintain their sanity in these moments. Yeah.
00:51:27
Speaker
As we start to wrap up, I usually ask people kind of the same closing question, but I've got a little bit of a different one for you, Raj. I think you've lived through some pretty incredible highs and you've also, as we've talked about, pressed through some real sort of trials, challenges. Best you can capture it through that. How have you tried to build a meaningful life? Meaningful life. I mean,
00:51:57
Speaker
There's this thing we always talk about, and you know, everyone's talking about getting a great work life balance, you know, and, and, and how do you build that work life balance into what you do? I don't believe in a work life balance. I just believe you only have one life. And I believe in filling it with great stuff. And whatever that great stuff is, you just got to spend your whole time just going, okay,
00:52:25
Speaker
I've got to do something here. Whether it is giving time to charity or whether it's doing cool tech. Overriding the whole thing has been interesting for me. I have a picture on my wall of a chap called John Ellis.
00:52:46
Speaker
And John Ellis, if you go to the National Portrait Gallery, so John Ellis was the head of the Midland Railway, he was part of the Industrial Revolution in the UK, you know, with the Home of the Industrial Revolution, the Industrial Revolution led the Industrial Revolution globally, you know, so he was part of that Industrial Revolution. If you go to the National Portrait Gallery in London, you will find his portrait
00:53:13
Speaker
on the wall of the gallery as part of the abolitionist movement. So he was anti-slave, he was part of the anti-slave movement, well in the UK. There's a school just across the road from where we live here, and his tenure as head of the Midland Railway, the Midland Railway built the school however many hundred years ago, and it's still today a school operating today. The amazing thing about all this is he happened to be my wife's great-great-great-grandfather.
00:53:43
Speaker
He didn't do the things he did, thinking I'm leaving a legacy of the things I'm doing. He did it because it was the right thing to do. And I'm having a conversation with you about it now. Yeah, sometimes a meaningful life isn't what you do. It's how it's remembered by people in the future. And I think so much about what we do is got to be about leaving a footprint in some shape or form for other people.
00:54:12
Speaker
But you can't really start overthinking the footprint you're leaving. You've got to think about what are you doing in the moment? Is this the right thing to do right now? And I spend a lot of time thinking, is this the right thing to do right now?
00:54:25
Speaker
Whether it's writing the papers for the charity, getting involved in the charity work, taking on those roles when you've got so much else on going on. I have two kids who are amazing, who are now starting their careers and they are filling their lives with great stuff too. And they've really taken that on board that actually you've got one life, fill it with great stuff.
00:54:46
Speaker
You know, you, you can rest at some point in the future. But, you know, that's not, it's not about resting. It's about going, how am I going to got to leave, got to leave something here? What is that? I don't even know what it is, but I've got to get on with it. I haven't got time, you know, for not doing these things. What a great message to, to leave our listeners with. Raj, thanks so much for, for coming on and sharing such incredible stories with our audience.
00:55:16
Speaker
Thank you for inviting me on here, Tyler. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for tuning in today. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd recommend that you give my interview in season two with Mark Marin, General Counsel of Puffco, a listen. We talk about navigating moments of adversity in the workplace, like when your company goes into bankruptcy or your CEO calls you out on Twitter.
00:55:40
Speaker
You can also subscribe so you can get notified as soon as we post a new episode. And if you like this one, I'd really love to hear your thoughts. So leave a rating or a comment. If you'd like to reach out to me or Raj, our LinkedIn profiles are in the description. See you all next week.