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Mental Health Research in Circus Arts with Dr. Melanie Stuckey - Circuspreneur Podcast Ep.103
22 Plays1 month ago
#MentalHealth #CircusHealth #Research #CircusStudy
In this episode of the Circuspreneur Podcast, host Shenea Stiletto interviews Dr. Melanie Stuckey, a researcher in human performance and social innovation at HUPR (Human Potential Research Centre) affiliated with the National Circus School in Montreal. Her main focus is on factors affecting human performance through the lens of inclusive, holistic well-being alongside social innovation to support the flourishing of individuals and communities. Melanie is the co-editor-in-chief of the Circus: Arts, Life, & Sciences journal, member of the Surveillance of Injuries for Research on Circus (SIRC) working group, and member of the Canadian College Research Equity, Diversity, & Inclusion Community of Practice Planning Committee. She is also a former pole dance and circus artist and coach.
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Transcript
Introduction and Platform Info
00:00:02
Circuspreneur Podcast
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00:00:14
Circuspreneur Podcast
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Guest Introduction: Dr. Melanie Stuckey
00:00:18
Circuspreneur Podcast
I'm your host, Shanae Stiletto, and my guest on today's Circuspreneur podcast is Dr. Melanie Stuckey. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Melanie.
00:00:28
Melanie
Thank you so much. It's so great to be here with you talking today.
00:00:31
Circuspreneur Podcast
Oh, I'm so just like thrilled to have you here today. For listeners, I'm going to probably go in and out of calling Dr. Melanie, Melanie and Dr. Melanie and out of respect.
00:00:43
Circuspreneur Podcast
and But I want to give you a little bit of background about Dr. Melanie Stuckey. She is a researcher in human performance and social innovation at HUPR.
00:00:54
Circuspreneur Podcast
Human Potential Research Center, affiliated with the National Circus School in Montreal. I'm sure a few of you have heard about that out there. Some of us
Research Focus and Background
00:01:01
Circuspreneur Podcast
have. Her main focus is on factors affecting human performance through the lens of inclusive, holistic well-being alongside social innovation to support the flourishing of individuals and communities.
00:01:12
Circuspreneur Podcast
Melanie is the co-editor-in-chief of The Circus, Arts, Life, and Sciences Journal. She's a member of the Surveillance of Injuries for Research on Circus, or CERC, working group, and member of the Canadian College Research, Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion Community of Practice Planning Committee.
00:01:28
Circuspreneur Podcast
She's also a former pole dance and circus artist and coach. A little bit about Melanie's papers that she's had published and research and data ah that she'll be discussing today.
Mental Health in Circus Performance
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Circuspreneur Podcast
Mental health has received little attention in pre-professional and professional circus despite the performance demands, cognitive skill and emotional labor required. This review aimed to consolidate the literature, identify research gaps, and guide practice priorities for mental health and pre-professional and professional circus artists.
00:01:59
Circuspreneur Podcast
That is what we are here to discuss today, Melanie, and what you presented recently at PAMA, or the Performing Arts Medicine Association Conference in Washington, D.C., where we were both on the circus panel led by Stephanie Greenspan, which was Absolutely fantastic. We had an amazing time there and I was so honored to advocate alongside you and Stephanie and Janine Stoop, who is also just absolutely phenomenal. um um And she heads, I believe, the Pearl Research Lab. And for those out there that know of Dr. Stephanie Greenspan, she heads athletic science.
00:02:35
Circuspreneur Podcast
ah So I would love to dive in, Melanie, into your experience and, you know, kind of putting this work out there at PAMA recently.
00:02:46
Circuspreneur Podcast
Thank
00:02:48
Melanie
Yeah, so for starters, I will um not so humbly say we had an incredible group presenting together at PAMA.
00:02:50
Circuspreneur Podcast
you.
00:02:56
Melanie
um And I want to just mention them at first as well, like you already gave a little introduction to them. But one of the reasons why this group was so important is because, um you know, Janine was talking about the physical health impacts. Stephanie was going a little bit more specific into concussion.
00:03:13
Melanie
Of course, you were there talking about the artist and the advocacy side. And then I was there talking about mental health. And the reason why I think it was so powerful to have all four of us together is like, yes, we'll talk about mental health today.
Coexistence of Mental and Physical Health
00:03:24
Melanie
But mental health doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens in the context of all the physical things that are going on, specific, you know, perhaps the concussions, but specific events or illnesses. And then in the whole context of There's actually artists that are living this life every day. And so it's not just a matter of sitting behind our desks and reading some papers. We really need to be thinking about how how this actually transfers and impacts into actual people's real lives and into the circus context as it is.
00:04:00
Melanie
So of course, there's always going to be that theoretical, like, yes, it would be perfect if we could do this and we could do this and we could do this. And some of the things we'll talk about today will probably be at that theoretical level.
00:04:12
Melanie
And then what we actually need is to have more discussions with people who are really doing it so that we can take what theoretically might be perfect and then actually integrate in a way that's usable in real life.
Data's Role in Shaping Policies
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Circuspreneur Podcast
Yes. And I love that aspect that you speak about so much, Melanie, of how does this research and this data land in real life? And that is where I come in in terms of policy and legislation, because You have the data, you have the research, and it's like it supports our arguments, right?
00:04:41
Circuspreneur Podcast
And having folks like you that are taking the time, there's not that much research out there with respect to mental health and respect to so much of the circus arts industry.
00:04:47
Melanie
Thank you.
00:04:51
Circuspreneur Podcast
which makes it challenging when we are trying to prove our arguments, even though we all know we're living this, this is super prevalent within the industry. We also, you know, you have all done a really great job in utilizing other streams of thought and other kinds of research that's out there to base that off of the circus arts or kind of like use them in tandem.
00:05:10
Circuspreneur Podcast
um as I would say, kind of like a springboard of like, this is very similar environment and this is where they've done and conducted that data. And this is how it's similar and this is how it is not similar and this is how it doesn't work.
00:05:17
Melanie
Thank you.
00:05:20
Circuspreneur Podcast
And this is the specific nuance that we need to continue to pursue so that our data is just as relevant as the data that we see for so many environments that there's a ton of you know papers out there that get published and a ton of things that come up as census and things like
Advocacy for Mental Health Policies
00:05:35
Circuspreneur Podcast
that.
00:05:35
Circuspreneur Podcast
And correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm using a little bit of um um of incorrect language here, um Melanie, but it's so it's so important. And having you in the room when we were advocating for policy also too in Washington, DC, we went to Capitol Hill together and we also too met with some senators
00:05:47
Melanie
Mm-hmm.
00:05:51
Circuspreneur Podcast
um in Washington, D.C., to, again, bring them this because D.C. loves data. They love numbers. they They love a report. And they love, again, to see that there are folks behind the scenes that are paying attention to these very minute details um because that is what matters to those certain demographics and environments.
00:06:11
Circuspreneur Podcast
So it was really profound and important to have you there producing that and showing again, what relevant research we have in America for circus arts, and then also to what is going and what is happening in Canada, which is where you're based and is where you're basing some, but not all of your research. Right.
00:06:29
Melanie
Right. Yeah.
Comparative Lack of Research
00:06:30
Melanie
And so to put it into perspective, maybe with a few more numbers, um our mental health review, so the one that you introduced at the beginning just a few minutes ago, um was based on the International Olympic Committee's mental health consensus for elite athletes. It's a bit of a mouthful.
00:06:46
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah.
00:06:46
Melanie
um But we were hoping to do a similar consensus for circus and the sport.
00:06:47
Circuspreneur Podcast
Wow. Yeah.
00:06:52
Melanie
So the elite athletes in their entire thing, I don't remember the exact number, but they had somewhere over 600 or 700 research articles that they based their consensus on.
00:07:03
Circuspreneur Podcast
Wow.
00:07:04
Melanie
um Yeah. So it's incredible that they have so much. In circus, we had 16.
00:07:07
Circuspreneur Podcast
yeah
00:07:10
Melanie
So it's, it's very small.
00:07:11
Circuspreneur Podcast
oh
00:07:12
Melanie
And um three of those were intervention studies. One was only a proposal of an intervention. One was a case study and one was something that had actually carried out an intervention.
00:07:24
Melanie
um And perhaps one of the, ah worry some things in circus is that we actually don't have any studies about pharmacological data or medication. So what effects do medications for mental illnesses actually have? And we know from other data from just mental health or sport that some of them can have significant effects on things like reaction time, fatigue, body composition, things that are important in daily circus practice. And so we really
00:07:56
Melanie
It would be very helpful to have a better understanding of when circus artists are prescribed these medications or taking these medications. Is there a way that we need to adjust training?
Importance of Mental Health Structures
00:08:06
Melanie
Is there a way we need to adjust performance? Is there something we can do to support them better so that they can have optimal mental health and optimal performance at the same time?
00:08:16
Circuspreneur Podcast
Right, because both of them go hand in hand. And I think that so much within circus, people really forget that aspect of it, that you have these very emotional spaces that are doing this high level dangerous technical skill. And where does that support come from? Not everybody has access to mental health um you know providers. um Not everyone has insurance.
00:08:36
Circuspreneur Podcast
Most jobs in most shows don't have anyone on site to be able to support their performers, even ah you know even in long-term shows or if you're doing some type of residency.
00:08:46
Circuspreneur Podcast
And then there's also too sometimes the fear around if I divulge too much about my mental state, will I be able to continue my job? And I think that again, speaks back to um why I think mental health ends up being maybe even more acute because you have so many different extenuating factors that go into how we operate on a daily basis when we're doing performances.
00:08:59
Melanie
Mm-hmm.
00:09:09
Circuspreneur Podcast
I love in the paper, you know, it talks about the fear of performing and the fear of, ah you know, of learning the skills. Also, too, versus the fear of having to perform them every single day and how those things are also, too, incredibly different, which one creates um more mental health stress for the performer.
00:09:25
Circuspreneur Podcast
And looking at the nuance of that, I thought was like really, really fascinating and interesting because I know even for myself, how I have felt many times over the years in terms of you just have to make it to the stage.
00:09:36
Circuspreneur Podcast
You just got to get there. You just got to find some way to come back to your body and to concentrate without anybody really there being able to help shape and mold my perspective or my mental state when going into you know my performances.
00:09:48
Circuspreneur Podcast
And it doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with you. These are things that so many of us have been dealing with our entire lives. And unless you're seeking that support out you're you're probably most likely not going to get it at your job.
00:10:00
Circuspreneur Podcast
And why do you think that is, Melanie, that we don't have structures as of yet in the circus arts where we support the mental health of the artists in the way that we can?
00:10:04
Melanie
ah
00:10:11
Circuspreneur Podcast
Not saying that people don't and that there's not environments that are trying to do um to move the needle on that. But, you know, I would say across the board and the majority, it's the exception and it's not the rule at this point, unfortunately.
00:10:24
Melanie
Yeah, absolutely. And the why is probably mostly related to the size of companies and the money that's available in circus versus when you think about sports.
00:10:32
Circuspreneur Podcast
Thank you.
00:10:34
Melanie
Um, and just quickly before I jump into this, I'm just going to mention that, um, when we talk about mental health and sort of the psychological side of things, there's really three different things we're talking about. So there's, um, mental health, which is, you know, how well you feel on a given day mentally.
00:10:51
Melanie
There's mental performance, which is, um, how, how you're ready to perform. So some of those things like being able to overcome, um, anxiety of performing and how you're able to, um,
00:11:03
Melanie
be sharp and focused and confident going on to stage or training. It doesn't have to be a performer. um And then there's mental illness. So that's when you have a diagnosed mental illness, which and it's nice that it's actually separate from mental health.
00:11:18
Melanie
So, um you know, you can have someone who has a mental illness, but a really high level of mental health and mental performance.
00:11:19
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. here
00:11:26
Melanie
And so they'd be considered to be flourishing in life. And then you can have someone that does not have a mental illness, but has really low mental health and really low levels of mental performance. So they would be considered to be languishing in life.
00:11:37
Melanie
And most often you have someone somewhere in the middle, but then.
00:11:40
Circuspreneur Podcast
Could you um provide an expan so example, Melanie, of
Types of Mental Health Support Needed
00:11:44
Circuspreneur Podcast
someone that, of mental illness that would go hand in hand with ah with someone that is functioning highly, um you know, in their mental health, but does have a mental illness that would maybe be specific um to the circus arts?
00:11:57
Melanie
ah Sorry, an example.
00:11:59
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah, an example of a mental illness while also high functioning.
00:12:01
Melanie
Yeah.
00:12:02
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah.
00:12:03
Melanie
Oh, so pretty much for any mental illness you have.
00:12:04
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah.
00:12:06
Melanie
Um, and just for like a little bit of background before I started working in circus, I worked in a recovery oriented mental health hospital. Um, and so the idea of, um, recovery based treatment is essentially that people are independent from their illness. So despite having symptoms that you may have to manage for a long time, you can still thrive in life.
00:12:26
Circuspreneur Podcast
Right. So even if you have like ADHD, for example, you can still be a high functioning um circus
00:12:27
Melanie
Um, exactly.
00:12:32
Melanie
Absolutely. If you have ADHD, if you have depression, if you have anxiety, if you have schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, anything that you can be diagnosed with, you can still have those symptoms really well managed and have a really high level of mental health.
00:12:47
Melanie
And then on the other side of that, you can have no mental illness and have really low mental health and still be struggling.
Addressing Misconceptions in Circus Industry
00:12:55
Melanie
And also the reason I bring that up is because there's this very specific type of person who has a very specific degree and medical ability to treat people who have mental illnesses.
00:13:07
Melanie
And then there's something that people who are not psychologists or psychiatrists can also be able to just put supports in for mental health. And so I feel like I didn't say that in a very clear and concise way, but essentially when we're looking at the circus context,
00:13:23
Melanie
Yes, there are going to be people who have mental illnesses who need to be followed by their psychologist, their psychiatrist, whoever their medical care team would be.
00:13:29
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:13:33
Melanie
um And that might be something that that just always needs to be referred out. I'm not sure. um But then there's also specialists who work on mental performance. And this is huge in the sport world. I know Cirque Soleil also has some mental performance specialists, I believe, is their proper title. It might be a bit different than that.
00:13:51
Melanie
um But people who are there to support, well, in the in the sport world, athletes, in the circus world, artists, to specifically support them to build their focus, to be able to um just be mentally ready to perform, mentally ready to train, and be able to train at that high level.
00:14:10
Melanie
And then we can also have just like more of a general population who can be thoughtful about mental health and thoughtful about things like stress and um not anxiety disorder, but worry and emotions in general. And how can we be creating environments that really support people to be able to um express, regulate and do you know, deal with those normal human emotions that impact our mental health so much.
00:14:43
Circuspreneur Podcast
that we often you know think in circus life, we don't have you know real you know issues or real problems. you know That's, I think sometimes the misconception, you know the myth within our industry that we don't have issues with mental health, that you do kind of do whatever it takes just to get along and to be there.
00:14:53
Melanie
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:15:01
Circuspreneur Podcast
um You even speak about, Melanie, in your papers that have been published about you know eating disorders and you know things of that nature that are all, I think, symptoms of a larger problem in terms of how we effectually do not address these issues within our industry. And you have to be in, I think, an environment that is um ah you know very well maintained, but also too, a lot of that is very isolated. I think we discussed that as well too, about if there are methods and things that are being done that are better for artists,
00:15:34
Circuspreneur Podcast
They're not things that come into the um the overall environment. they cant They can be very isolated and very singular. um And the the push at this point for like policy is to make sure that everyone has access to these benefits. So how can we get these benefits um you know accessible across the board? And can you talk about kind of the inaccessibility of you know having access to mental health benefits within the circus arts as a circus artist or even as a circus program.
00:16:00
Circuspreneur Podcast
um Maybe kind of like the um the the roadblocks to being able to do those things um in the way that certain spaces would like to do them.
00:16:08
Melanie
you Yeah. And that's also, i mean, I would say that's a ah very tough question because there are, um I mean, some of it is policy-based. So it's just a matter of um there being that push at the policy level of if nobody's implementing it, what's going to, who's going to push for it and who's going to thank you, Sinead, try and get these these things passed and so that it is a standard across.
00:16:39
Melanie
um And part of it is also, I would say, just believing in what can be different. I know at the ENC, at the National Circus School, we've had a lot of talks, especially since ah the pandemic 2020, when mental health issues kind of had a little bit of a spike.
00:16:44
Circuspreneur Podcast
Thank you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:16:57
Melanie
um And so we've been mindful about people's mental health more and what can we do? And it's not as cut and dry. Like it seems like it should be so easy to just bring it in, but a lot of it comes down to the culture. So even if you have administration and if they put in all the supports possible, if we get extra social workers and have our student services person who's ready to support everyone,
00:17:23
Melanie
there still has to be a willingness and an acceptability in the culture so that the students are willing to speak about it and take action on it. And how do we really create that culture where, um I guess, perhaps starting from a very young age or through each level that people move up, right? Like people don't come to your school or people don't enter your company as a blank slate. They already have all of these beliefs that have been deeply, deeply ingrained in them.
00:17:52
Melanie
And so if they've come from a space where you don't talk about mental health and you know poor mental health is weakness and strong people don't feel their feelings and blah, blah, blah, that stuff that we really need to overcome, that's what they're coming in with.
00:18:02
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah. Right. right
00:18:06
Melanie
So how are you purposefully and consciously trying to change that conversation and make sort of shift those beliefs and be a culture where it's different?
00:18:19
Circuspreneur Podcast
And how have you gone about, i would say, um assessing this data and this research and how challenging has it been, ah Melanie, to try and research this particular aspect of the circus arts industry?
00:18:33
Melanie
Yeah. So,
00:18:34
Circuspreneur Podcast
know these are like really hard questions. You're like, how hard has it been? i mean, you know, how much time have you got?
00:18:39
Melanie
yeah. ah I mean, the, the easy answer to that is is it it's extremely challenging because it costs money and you need a grant to do it.
00:18:46
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:18:49
Melanie
And if there aren't granting agencies who are really willing to, and I don't want to say there's not granting agencies who don't think it's important, but when you think about circus is such a small niche and when you're
00:18:56
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:19:01
Melanie
applying for a grant and people see circus, they're like, oh, that's fun, you know, but there's something more important that needs it or like something bigger.
00:19:06
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:19:10
Melanie
um Because a lot of times when you're submitting a grant too, you have to, like for me being in Canada, it's a matter of like, how is this going to impact your community?
00:19:10
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:19:18
Melanie
How will it impact, how will it impact all of Canada? um And when you're like, well, all the circus artists across Canada and people are like, oh, you know, like, so it's hard to,
00:19:28
Circuspreneur Podcast
Right.
00:19:28
Melanie
As much as us in the industry know how important it is, it's hard to make the case at that federal level of federal funding that like this is going to have a big impact on people, even if it's a niche number a ni area of people.
00:19:46
Melanie
um So how do we get more funding so that we can run the research is really the big question.
00:19:46
Circuspreneur Podcast
right
00:19:51
Melanie
And I do not have the answer to that or I would have done it already.
Funding Challenges in Research
00:19:57
Circuspreneur Podcast
Well, I think you have you have a lot of answers, though. And even with it being so difficult, you are publishing so many papers and getting so much work done and putting so much out there. So, you know, with the work that you are doing, I know that it's exceptionally difficult and we go back and forth in conversation about this.
00:20:12
Circuspreneur Podcast
all the time about the challenges that we're facing. And even in Canada where, you know, it's like, is it a niche at this point anymore? I mean, you know, it's, it's huge. It's a huge, huge, huge thing.
00:20:22
Melanie
It is.
00:20:23
Circuspreneur Podcast
And I think it's, it's really fascinating to get that feedback that we still get where, you think like, wow, we still don't seem important, but we are generating quite a bit of economic income here.
00:20:34
Circuspreneur Podcast
We're a generation we you know we're employing a lot of people, um you know even across Canada. And how challenging you know even still that is even now in 2025. And then the conversation of how do we continue to make that relevant? How do we continue to make our industry um you know important and a focal point of where people are at. And that's the policy issue as well here in America of how can we keep um circus arts at the forefront of what they're thinking of um in terms of shaping these policies so of ah with what we actually need. And I also wanted you to speak to that, Melanie, of being in spaces and providing that data so that folks understand specifically what we need. Because so many times our environments, I think, are shaped by folks outside of the industry and that don't know very much.
00:21:24
Circuspreneur Podcast
um And what we're usually saying as well is, well, and if you would fund more of this data, you'd be able to have and use even more of it to help you make those decisions. um And that's why I really want us to continue to have a seat at the table so that when we are there, we, you know, we're in the room and these things are not shaped without our perspectives. And then they don't support us um because, you know, they don't have um the important nuance of what makes our industry tick. So, um you know, if you could speak on that a little bit, that would be wonderful.
00:21:52
Melanie
Yeah, and I'm not sure that I'm going to address that 100%, so feel free to ah cut me off and do what you need to do. um But I think that there's there's sort of a couple of steps to that.
00:22:05
Melanie
um And the one is from the researcher end, to be able to um sort of engage in more of a co-creation with artists, right? Whether it's artists or companies, schools, whatever it is right from the get-go.
00:22:18
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:22:18
Melanie
So it can be great. Like I can sit down and I can read all the papers, all 16 papers that have been published in mental health and circus. And I can see all of the gaps really easily. And I can say like, this should be done and this should be done and this should be done and this should be done. Like I can have a huge list.
00:22:34
Melanie
um But until that comes into conversation with the people who are going to be using the research directly, um it's hard to know what's going to be actually useful, what's going to address the greatest need at the moment.
00:22:49
Melanie
And of course, we need people to engage in our research, because not everything is theory. So we need to be getting data from people. And so we want to be getting data that is important to them, that's going to give them the greatest feedback and the greatest outcomes, hopefully after anyway.
00:23:06
Melanie
So there's sort of that one step where we need to be actually talking to artists, schools, the people to be able to do our research as best as we can, or in a more meaningful way. And then there's also the other side of things is once we have research, how we
00:23:17
Circuspreneur Podcast
Mm-hmm.
00:23:22
Melanie
how do we translate that back? So how do we say like, okay, thanks, you told us what you needed, we see what this is the outcome, and how do we feed that back into the industry, again, in a way that's meaningful for them to use, and then also feed that research forward into people who are interested in potentially changing policy, or um how do we get that to the people.
00:23:46
Melanie
And I think I just asked the same question that you asked. And I think the answer is that I don't have an answer, but those are the two spots that we really need to
Engaging Artists in Research
00:23:53
Melanie
be focused. First, do research that's actually meaningful.
00:23:54
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yes.
00:23:56
Melanie
And then, you know, maybe even if we, i know want to one of the sort of groups of people that we've been thinking have been missed a lot. Like we're, I think we're pretty good.
00:24:07
Melanie
Um, I mean, Janina is with Pearl research and they work directly with the the program there. David Monroe is with Nika and they work directly with the program there. I'm with the NC. we work with the program here.
00:24:19
Melanie
Um, okay but I think that one of the, when we talk about mental health and physical health, one of the groups of stakeholders that we've really had challenges engaging with is, um, like company directors, artistic directors, um,
00:24:36
Circuspreneur Podcast
um
00:24:37
Melanie
the people who make budgetary decisions essentially for companies.
Company Executives' Role in Mental Health Awareness
00:24:41
Melanie
And when we get to that executive level, what is actually important to them? Um, do they care if the students at EMC have a lot of stress or do they care that they're going to be performing well and costing them as little money as possible once they get there?
00:24:58
Melanie
I don't want I'm not trying to say that it's as that black and white and they're, you know, but, um, but they have their responsibilities as an executive team.
00:25:08
Circuspreneur Podcast
Right.
00:25:09
Melanie
And so I think that's one group that we would really love to engage with more in the future to find out how we can actually be addressing their needs. Because we also know that they aren't living in this perfect world where they have no problems either.
00:25:23
Melanie
And so there are needs that need to be addressed for them. And certainly all of the things around artist mental health, artist physical health, um so many of these policy things would,
00:25:34
Melanie
be able to support them better too? And how do we make that connection so that we can have like not only meaningful research for people who are going through training and students, but then it actually transfers into the industry after.
00:25:49
Circuspreneur Podcast
right That pipeline, which is so essential and so important. And I love that you spoke about who we need to be engaging with more and who needs to be within the conversations more and the economic bottom lines for a lot of um a lot of spaces and how can we show them that if you support these other things that are very important, that it'll, I think, help the overall economic bottom line. And we've seen that. I mean, they've seen that with so many different industries where if you give ah you know your workers and you give your employees more benefits, that it actually encourages their work and they perform better and you spend a lot less money on other budgetary things that are non-essential and that it creates an overall better working environment. People get along better. I'm sure that would probably be for our industry.
00:26:32
Circuspreneur Podcast
probably um maybe less interpersonal fighting, less accidents. um you know i think i think we can definitely all at this point in time speak to that, even if there is not pronounced data effectively around that. But I think that from even the data that you guys all have and from the conclusions that you've made and just from our experiences, we know that that could probably shape this industry and make things a lot better, even if at the onset, it doesn't seem like it would, because folks think that things are just too expensive.
00:27:02
Circuspreneur Podcast
um And I think changing that narrative around the circus arts industry is what is going to continue to be, I think, the fight um around that, especially because our industry is so precarious, and it and it is so dangerous.
00:27:03
Melanie
Thank
00:27:14
Circuspreneur Podcast
And I think it's interesting when we have to discuss about taking care of and maintaining mental health within an environment that's highly stressful, you would think that you would want every single effective um person within that environment.
00:27:25
Circuspreneur Podcast
And you know we also spoke about a little bit, Melanie, don't want be too much off of of of your research, but in terms of like you know the certifications and the experiences of those that are shaping artists.
00:27:33
Melanie
Mm-hmm.
00:27:36
Circuspreneur Podcast
and how that but but that that needs to change. And we definitely need to be looking at that in terms of policy too, of are folks equipped enough to be coaching and training in these environments? And do they need better tools, which I think they very much need to.
00:27:53
Circuspreneur Podcast
And I think that comes into like our degree programs and having and having higher levels of education um when you are in environments that are so dangerous and so acutely specialized, but that have now become so, so, so popular. um And it makes it difficult to control that.
00:28:09
Circuspreneur Podcast
And I think that that's also a reason as well that we need to continue to work towards.
00:28:15
Melanie
And, um, yeah, we definitely talked about how a lot of certifications are kind of weekend certifications that you go for a weekend and then, you know, everything you need to know.
00:28:23
Circuspreneur Podcast
he
00:28:28
Melanie
I know it's yeah everything.
00:28:28
Circuspreneur Podcast
Everything.
00:28:30
Melanie
Um, know from, i had to take a few pole certifications and we learned nothing about, i mean, a pole is fairly secure because it's, you know, fully usually screwed into the roof and the ceiling.
00:28:44
Melanie
But we learn nothing about like, how do you know if a pole is safe or not? Like, is there something you should be watching for the bend? Or how do you know when it's time to take down a pole and replace it? And I think in and some of the circus ones, like you don't actually learn what makes a rigging point safe. It's just, here's some moves you can teach some people and that's all all great.
00:29:04
Melanie
um And I think I'm speaking more so from the Canadian perspective and certainly like This is not about the coaches at ENC because all of our coaches are very ah professional career coaches, but looking at a lot of the um you know more recreational programs, um there's not necessarily a standard for um yeah for for training.
00:29:22
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah. Right.
00:29:28
Circuspreneur Podcast
Right.
00:29:31
Melanie
And they're often considered to be like a hobby job, right? So it's just something you kind of do on the side. You really love circus. And so of course you want to teach it. Maybe you have a full-time job and you're just going to teach a couple of things.
00:29:41
Circuspreneur Podcast
right
00:29:44
Melanie
So we can't really ask you to go to all this extra training and know about rigging points and know about all these things. That's just ridiculous when you're only teaching a couple of classes a week. um And while it may seem ridiculous for only teaching a couple of classes a week, is it ridiculous when you're teaching a bunch of people to climb up however many feet in the air and hang upside down and wrap themselves up maybe and fall down and hope that they've put their wraps in the right direction that they get caught.
00:30:15
Melanie
Um, so there's a lot that goes into circus and that's only like one apparatus. We didn't even get into like, hander ah any, anything else.
00:30:26
Melanie
Um, but there is so much and there is, I think outside of like the professional circus schools or very high level, um I think there's a lot of just the view of coaching as a hobby.
00:30:38
Melanie
And I think that's where we really need to to be starting to think a bit more about how, how would we like to have professionals who are really treated like professionals and not, not to say that the people teaching, like some of them are absolutely professional. They go to tons of Kana, they do tons of reading, they stay on the top of their game, but it doesn't, they're still not treated like professionals and,
00:31:02
Melanie
reimbursed as if they're professionals and ah have the expectations that that you would think that any other career having the same, like can you imagine if a roofer had the same criteria?
00:31:15
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah.
00:31:16
Melanie
Like they have to do so much training for their, I'm sure in the US as well, they have to do so much training to be able to be in their harness up on the roof.
00:31:19
Circuspreneur Podcast
yeah
00:31:25
Melanie
And why is that so different than a circus coach? So.
00:31:31
Circuspreneur Podcast
Right. And I think also, too, i love what you were
Transition from Hobbyist to Professional
00:31:35
Circuspreneur Podcast
discussing, Melanie. Also, even if somebody is a hobbyist or in maybe a program that is not initially serious, that your students eventually could become serious students and they could end up ah going to a serious um higher education circus school.
00:31:49
Circuspreneur Podcast
And so i think that we've seen that as well, where people start as hobbyists, it's not that serious, and then they end up in a very serious job um that they are not ready for.
00:31:53
Melanie
Thank you.
00:31:58
Circuspreneur Podcast
um and I've heard that many, many, many times in terms of the stress of on folks and artists and coaches in terms of mental health, because they're like, they just weren't ready. Like they didn't expect to get this opportunity and they're happy, they're grateful, all the things, but then you realize, whoa, this is, I didn't come from this particular school of thought, but now I am in this, I'm in this big league and now I need a lot of extra support um to protect myself.
00:32:26
Circuspreneur Podcast
And so I think it's what we're saying too about like, that development being treated as serious within any of these environments, because in our industry, it is different. You never know. You might go for a hobbyist in one year and then suddenly you are working for Cirque du Soleil, you know, in the next two years and it was not your plan whatsoever.
00:32:45
Circuspreneur Podcast
And I think that the crossover that happens within our industry is much more um likely than some other industries, which, again, I think speaks to like the nuance of how it's just specific and it doesn't make it good or bad. It's just looking at the reality of those things. And then again, what leads to maybe um certain accidents happen that maybe could have been avoided um if folks were more prepared or there was more structure or certifications or, um you know, more energy or efforts paid.
00:33:12
Circuspreneur Podcast
um to them in those different environments that, um you know, eventually took them into something that, again, they just weren't prepared for. And um it's not about making it anyone's fault. It's just how do we influence these structures and make them more supportive so that we're thinking about how this industry works.
00:33:30
Circuspreneur Podcast
um and not just kind of leaving people out there to fend for themselves and then blame them when something does happen or something does go wrong. um We are going to be ending the podcast soon, um Melanie. And so thank you so much for coming on and sharing just your brilliant research. You are so brilliant, um, and concise, and you speak about research in a way that anyone could understand because you're speaking about so many different nuanced things. And, um, I highly recommend everyone go, um, you know, and follow, um, Melanie and read her papers. I'm going to put a couple of them in the show notes so that you can read, um, the papers that they have had published recently. But what would you like to leave us with, um, Dr. Melanie in terms of where do you think, um, the gaps that we need to continuously fill in
00:34:14
Circuspreneur Podcast
for mental health and things that you are looking towards for continued research around mental health in the circus arts for pre-professionals and professionals in the industry.
00:34:23
Melanie
Yeah. ah Oh, this is going to take the next half hour.
00:34:25
Circuspreneur Podcast
You got two minutes.
00:34:26
Melanie
I'm kidding. um
00:34:28
Circuspreneur Podcast
You're amazing.
00:34:28
Melanie
I think that's okay. I can do two minutes. um
00:34:31
Circuspreneur Podcast
Thank you.
00:34:32
Melanie
I think for me, two major pieces to mental health that I would love to see. she I don't even know if addressed more, but more consciously thought about one is the emotional labor. So really considering, and we've talked about it, I just gave it a different name, but the idea of like having to perform emotions and being scared and having to deal with risk and
Awareness on Body Image and Emotional Labor
00:34:53
Melanie
all of those things. And the other is body capital, which I think is a really big contributor to mental health. And we often forget about, and yes, body image is a part of that. And that's quite huge when we think about eating disorders and stuff like that in the circus world, but also just the idea that you are constantly being paid as ah professional artist and expected to have a functioning body and to have a body that functions in a certain way.
00:35:21
Melanie
and can do things and just the stress that that can have on a person from always being an object and always being a product. um And that can have ah ah quite a big impact on it as well without having that ability to like step away and let something else take take your spotlight for a little while or whatnot. And so I think that just, I would love to see there be more awareness about all of the issues that contribute to mental health in circus.
00:35:52
Melanie
um And once we get the awareness, then I think we can really start diving in and focusing on very specific interventions to help to improve mental health in in our circus artists, in our circus industry.
00:36:05
Melanie
and And just one quick addition on your last point about the the the training.
00:36:09
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yeah.
00:36:12
Melanie
is i feel like whether you're a hobbyist and whether you stay a hobbyist for your whole life, is it ever going to be bad to have more training on risk management, emotional regulation, and just being confident and joyful?
00:36:27
Melanie
So i think, and like interpersonal competencies, interpersonal relationships, I feel like those are beneficial to everyone, whether you're going, they're like crucial to a professional artist, but they're beneficial to everyone.
00:36:29
Circuspreneur Podcast
yeah
00:36:40
Melanie
So there's no reason why we can't be integrating all of that from hobbyists forward.
00:36:46
Circuspreneur Podcast
Yes. 100, 1000% agree. on that. And I think that that is brilliant note to end on Dr. Melanie. Thank you again for coming on and for sharing um your amazing work and um we'll continue to yeah follow your journey and report back on the valuable research and data that you're doing and folks that want to collaborate um with you know with Melanie.
Conclusion and Reminder
00:37:12
Circuspreneur Podcast
um She is a brilliant, brilliant mind and I love the work that she's doing and I'm very happy to be a part of um of it and working and being included and trying again to be on the policy side of how do we you know utilize this research and data and how do we make it exist and live in the real world um so that it is mandated and it's and and everyone can have access to it um in the way that is that is specific to them within the circus arts, specifically in America, and then everyone that's working to do that at large so that we have that on an international basis as well, because the industry is an international community and industry. And you might be working in America today, but you also might be working in Canada tomorrow. And then the next week, you might also to be working in the Netherlands. and That's just the way that our industry ticks.
00:37:57
Circuspreneur Podcast
So having all of this cohesive data and research and opinions and perspectives that are cohesive across the board is so important that so many of us are on the same page of how um you know, we're, um ah you know, supporting the industry. and This Circuspreneur podcast is also available on stagelink.com, S-T-A-G-E-L-Y-N-C.C-O-M, the groundbreaking new platform for live performing arts that provides unmatched access and connection to this vibrant world of shows and entertainment.
00:38:23
Circuspreneur Podcast
If you're a professional in the performing arts, visit stagelink.com slash pro. StageLink Pro, S-T-A-G-E-L-Y-N-C-P-R-O, offers industry professionals higher visibility, networking opportunities, and tools to support and enhance their careers.
00:38:37
Circuspreneur Podcast
and so and Until next time, everyone, I'm your host, Sinead Stiletto. Please stay safe, stay healthy, and please tune in for the next episode of the Circus for Newer podcast.