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#91: A Very Special 4th Anniversary Episode
78 Plays2 years ago
Back when there were little to no podcasts for EHS professionals, HSI’s own Jill James started this one to celebrate and explore the journey and experiences of safety professionals. In this special anniversary episode, the tables turn as our host is in the hot seat. Our guest host is long-time friend Dr. Todd Loushine, who digs deeper into where it all started, some of Jill's favorite episodes, and the future of safety. Make sure to leave your feedback/suggestions on the survey below to help us improve in years to come!
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Transcript
Introduction of Guest Host
00:00:10
Speaker
This is the accidental safety pro brought to you by HSI. This episode was recorded April 29th, 2022. My name is Jill James, HSI's chief safety officer. And today I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Todd Luchene.
00:00:26
Speaker
Todd is Associate Professor at the University of Wisconsin-Whitewater in the Occupational Safety Degree Program, and is also Vice President of ASSP's Region 5. Todd is also a professional engineer, a certified industrial hygienist, and a certified safety professional. And today, for the first time ever, I am passing the host microphone over to Todd.
Podcast Milestones and Celebrations
00:00:51
Speaker
Welcome to the show.
00:00:53
Speaker
Thank you, Jill. And I promise to give back your show and as good as condition as you gave it to me. How does that sound? That's so perfect. Welcome one and all to a very special episode of the Accidental Safety Pro podcast. Like Jill said, my name is Todd and I'm a longtime fan of the show and a very longtime friend of the host, Jill James. Jill, congratulations and happy fourth anniversary on your podcast.
00:01:17
Speaker
Thank you so much. I cannot believe it has been four years. And also just a reminder to everyone, Todd's voice is not new to you if you've been listening for all four years. Todd has been on episode seven and 49 and now today. Now Jill, did you know that the traditional fourth anniversary gift is fruits and flowers?
00:01:39
Speaker
No, and I don't see any on my desk at the moment either. Well, this is the podcast so you gotta pretend. Okay. So what I did is I did a basic Google search and I found that fruits symbolize abundance associated with goddesses of fertility, plenty, and harvest. And flowers symbolize emotions, ideas, and actions.
00:01:59
Speaker
So under those assumptions, let's celebrate an abundance of emotion and ideas as I take over the reins now and interview you, our esteemed podcast and host, Jill James.
Podcast Success and Global Impact
00:02:12
Speaker
Yay! Is this where we put the applause track? Yep, yep. Aw, thank you, Todd. Thanks for the great welcome. I appreciate that. Thank you. So Jill, how are you feeling today as you reflect on the past four years building and hosting this show?
00:02:28
Speaker
Well, you know, I really want to share some podcast stats because after all, it's our fourth anniversary episode. And I thought it'd be fun and maybe encouraging for all of our listeners and guests to share some of the numbers that we've collected over the last four years of recording. So here we go. As of 2021,
00:02:54
Speaker
we know that there are over two million podcast shows worldwide. And that's up from 550,000 podcasts just three years ago. And there are close to 50 million podcast episodes floating around in the ether. And so we wanted to know where does the Accidental Safety Pro fit into that equation?
00:03:17
Speaker
So here's what we found out. We found that by getting over 350 downloads within seven days of releasing an episode on average, we're in the top 10% of podcasts globally.
00:03:32
Speaker
Can you believe that? This little podcast is in the top 10% of podcasts globally. And as of today, the show has over 184,000 downloads across 95 episodes
00:03:48
Speaker
with 1942 downloads
Reflections on Hosting and Storytelling
00:03:52
Speaker
on average. So that kind of blows that 350 that you need to get in the top 10% out of the water. So those are the stats I wanted to share right now. And Todd, you'll have to help me remember a little bit later. I want to share our top five performing episodes because I think the number one spot is going to surprise everybody listening.
00:04:16
Speaker
So again, just really want to thank everyone who's listening right now, who's been listening for the last four years since the beginning, or maybe you just started. And all of our guests really appreciate the following and the engagement. And so, Todd, I think you, did you ask me how I'm feeling about it today? Yes. Well, I'm feeling appreciative for one.
00:04:46
Speaker
And I'm also humbled by the fact that all of these guests, 95 guests, have trusted their personal stories, their stories, their accomplishments with this podcast. And we get to be the keepers of all of those stories.
00:05:08
Speaker
I just think that's amazing. My highest value, and when I say highest value, it's because I actually did a little exercise to figure out what my highest value was for anyone who follows and sociologist, Brene Brown, and in her book, Dare to Lead, she takes people through this exercise to find out like, what's your highest value? So I did that exercise a bunch of years ago, and my highest value is dignity.
00:05:38
Speaker
which makes total sense for someone who's dedicated their work life to worker justice. You know, I want to see dignity for all human beings. And so when I think about this podcast, I think about the fact that this is a space that we got to create to be able to capture all of those stories of people's collective work toward
00:06:02
Speaker
the dignity of all working human beings and I just think that's amazing that so many people have told their stories shared their stories and so many of you have listened and hopefully it sprouted some sort of interest in you maybe propelled you forward to do something in your career and I just think that's I think that's amazing. My friend
00:06:29
Speaker
Mark Catlin, who's been on the show four times. He's got the number one spot, Mark Catlin, industrial hygienist. He is the health and safety occupational health historian, hands down. I don't know anybody who knows more about history of our field of work than Mark Catlin. And he had told me a number of years ago that capturing these stories of our collective work is so important. You know, as a historian,
00:06:57
Speaker
He said this just really these stories need to be captured and so he's encouraged me and cheered me on over the years and I'm so so grateful to Mark and how he puts things in historical perspective.
Evolution and Focus of the Podcast
00:07:12
Speaker
That was beautifully said, Jill. It's interesting. I don't know if you can hear my heart just beating. I'm just excited about what you're saying. And I know we're going to talk a little bit later about some episodes that if your listeners haven't heard, or maybe they should go back and listen to it again, but definitely listen to those episodes.
00:07:29
Speaker
So I know you and I know you're a reflective thinker and I know you dedicate a considerable considerable amount of time thinking about your experiences and your perceptions of your interactions with people to better understand what you've learned and to put things into perspective. And if I have one recommendation for the people listening, you should do more reflective thinking and journaling. It's good for us all. Now, for me, this makes you the genuine artifact
00:07:58
Speaker
When you say something, I know that a lot of thought and consideration went into it. So having said that, what were your initial thoughts and goals for the podcast? And did those change or evolve for you?
00:08:12
Speaker
Well, initially, yeah, initially in terms of like how did the podcast start, you know, it actually started with you, Todd. And I know you said you don't necessarily remember this story, but it started with you, which is why I asked you back for this anniversary episode. So four years ago, we, you know, go back in the time machine here, Todd, you and a bunch of other health and safety professionals from around the country,
00:08:39
Speaker
were in a focus group with me and we were talking about like what does what what do we need in terms of our field of practice and you said I think you should start podcast and I'm like
00:08:54
Speaker
What's a podcast? Like I had no idea. I didn't know what a podcast is and now I listen to podcasts literally every day. And so you explained what a podcast was and that you've been listening to them on your commute. And I said, well, why would we wanna do this?
00:09:10
Speaker
And your answer at that time was, we don't get to talk to one another very often. So many of us in our work are our solo operators, not all of us, but many of us are solo operators. And at that time you articulated that we might go to conferences, attend conferences, but we don't necessarily get to spend time at those conferences like we might want to speaking with other people who do our work and really having an in-depth conversation
00:09:39
Speaker
asking people about how they do what they do so we can learn things from one another. And so you had suggested that maybe a podcast would be the right place for that. So picked up that idea, ran with it. My marketing team at the time said, okay, well, sure, let's start a podcast, but Jill, you have to have a theme.
00:10:03
Speaker
You know, you gotta have a theme for this. What's your theme gonna
Memorable Interviews and Themes
00:10:05
Speaker
be? And I said, well, I don't know. Every time I meet somebody in this line of work, I always ask the same leading question.
00:10:13
Speaker
How'd you get into it? Because everyone's story is so winding. Their path is so winding. No one, as a little kid, when you're asked, like, hey, why did you get into safety, says, well, I've known this since I was a little kid. There's one exception to that rule, however. That exception is our guest, Siobhan.
00:10:36
Speaker
who as a little kid knew she wanted to be a health and safety professional. And it's because her mother is a professor of health and safety and taught one of your coworkers as well. So Siobhan and her mom have both been guests on the show and they are the outliers. I have not heard of anybody else who knew since they were a little kid that they wanted to be the health and safety professionals. So what was the rest of your question?
00:11:07
Speaker
You kind of gave us the initial thoughts of where the podcast came from, but in addition to what you had already said as far as talking to people, how have those initial thoughts, and maybe it started out with not anything concrete, but I'm sure at some point it took some form, and I assume it evolved, but maybe it hasn't. So I thought maybe the listeners would be interested that how have things changed in your mind over the last four years.
00:11:32
Speaker
Yeah, right. And so with that basic premise of people sharing their stories and capturing their stories of how they got into the work, it became pretty obvious pretty fast when I do my pre-podcast chat. So every time I have a guest on the show, we have a conversation ahead of time. And I don't have people tell me their whole story when we're talking because I want to be surprised and engaged as well. And I don't want things to be rehearsed.
00:12:01
Speaker
But then I always ask guests, like, is there something you really want to talk about? Like, is there something that's that's on your heart and mind right now that you really want to talk about a story you want to share? Or are you a topical expert in a particular area? And you know, people sometimes
00:12:21
Speaker
Are a little bit shy like, gosh, isn't this just, you know, like the, you know, a big ego display like I want to talk about all these great things I've done and I really want to really invite people to step into that. And to talk about it, you know, we've had people on the show who
00:12:38
Speaker
have been on the forefront of developing things that later became regulations, or their life's work has really revolved around a particular topic, or they've done phenomenal things, or maybe they've had the opportunity to present their research at the United Nations, which was the case with our guest Dr. Amy orders a while ago.
00:13:02
Speaker
And so in those pre-podcast chats, I really started asking people, okay, so there's your story, but then what do you really want to talk about? And that's been really fun. And so I guess that's how it's evolved.
Impactful Storytelling in Episodes
00:13:19
Speaker
Okay, so I was about to ask you, I'm going to correct my English. I was going to say, which was your favorite? But then I'm thinking that's like asking a parent who's your favorite child. Now I have an answer, but others may not. So what I want to ask it, I thought that was funny. What or who were some of your most memorable interviews?
00:13:41
Speaker
Well, you're right. I do really love all of the interviews that I've done, and I'm not just saying that because of what you just said, who's your favorite child, right?
00:13:57
Speaker
In terms of maybe some of my most memorable, maybe let's put it that way. So when I think about who I was most nervous to interview,
00:14:11
Speaker
Probably the first person I was really nervous to interview was Debbie Hersman. Debbie at the time was president and CEO of the National Safety Council. And prior to her taking on that job and role, she was the chair of the NTSB.
00:14:29
Speaker
And prior to me interviewing her, which I did live at the NSC Expo in Congress, I saw her on the Today Show being interviewed when she was chair of the NTSB and I'm like,
00:14:44
Speaker
What? She's gonna be on my podcast? Like last time she was interviewed, somebody from the Today Show did it and now she's gonna be on my podcast and we did it on camera. And so you could, you know, somebody goes back and looks on YouTube that can see me interviewing Debbie. And maybe you might be able to tell I was a little bit nervous because I'm like, what am I gonna ask this person? Like she's been on like national television and now she's on my tiny little baby podcast. And so that would be like one of my most nervous interviews.
00:15:14
Speaker
But then that was really quickly followed up by another one that made me pretty nervous, which was Charlie Moorcraft. And Charlie Moorcraft, as some of the listeners here will remember Charlie's name, he tells the most pivotal, I guess the most impactful keynote
00:15:39
Speaker
I have ever heard in my 28 year career. And Todd, I know you've heard Charlie speak as well.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, I'd never miss it if I'm at a conference and he's speaking. Yeah. And so he's episode number 29, um, for anyone who's like, who's Charlie more craft. And, and so in terms of, you know, my, my great love in life is listening to stories and collecting stories. Like I'm a story collector, I'm a story teller. And the first time I heard Charlie tell his story, which was, I don't know, probably more than 15 years ago,
00:16:17
Speaker
I was just hooked on this guy and his story and his vulnerability when he told the story. A couple of years ago, my friend, Eric Kloss, episode number 30, who at that time was working at the University of Notre Dame, contacted me and said,
00:16:38
Speaker
Hey Jill, you know, we're doing this big celebration at Notre Dame for the things that we're doing with health and safety and I've invited Charlie Morcraft to come and keynote it. Do you want to come and celebrate with us? And I'm like, what? Like Charlie's coming to your campus? Would you be on my podcast? Do you think I could ask him to be on my podcast? Do you think he'd consider being on my podcast? Charlie's a pretty big deal. And I reached out to
00:17:06
Speaker
to Charlie's staff and they said yes and so I literally packed up recording gear, flew it all to Indiana and I had the great opportunity to interview Charlie who's just been like you know like wow somebody that I look up to as a storyteller and I couldn't believe I got to do that with him as his service dog laid under the table while we were recording and we were hoping you know like is the dog gonna bark service dogs don't bark duh
00:17:35
Speaker
The dog was quiet, Charlie and I had a fantastic conversation and he and I and Eric got to hang out with one another on campus for an entire afternoon and it was just so fun. In terms of other
00:17:53
Speaker
other people that I think of, David DeSario, who's a documentarian and talks about temporary worker justice and did the documentary called All in a Day's Work about the life and death of Day Davis. That was a really important episode for me to get right. And when I say get right,
00:18:19
Speaker
That just to me means get out of the way and let people tell their story and honor that story. And so that was a really important episode to me. Another episode I'm thinking of is with a woman named Katika Roy.
00:18:37
Speaker
And she is the CEO and founder of a company called Pipeline Equity. And I had mentioned earlier that I'm a podcast junkie. Now, since you introduced me to podcast, Todd, thanks a lot for that.
00:18:51
Speaker
And Katica is guest on episode number 53. And I was listening to a different podcast that I listened to called Her Money. And it's hosted by a woman named Jean Chatsky. She's very, very popular in terms of finance and women in finance. And Katica was a guest on the show talking about equity and women and pay.
00:19:16
Speaker
And I thought, oh my gosh, her story was so phenomenal. I'm like, can I ask her to be on my show? Like, would she even say yes? Because what I really wanted to talk about with her was women in STEM. And what do we know about equity in STEM? Because our field of work is STEM. It's science, technology, engineering, and math. Absolutely. It sits in that.
00:19:42
Speaker
And so I reached out to her, crossed my fingers and thought, can I get somebody like that on my show to talk about equity in STEM and encourage women in our field? And she said yes. And that was really a great honor. You know, having Chip Hughes on the show, Chip
00:20:02
Speaker
was the long, long time director of the National Environmental Health and Sciences, NIEHS, National Institute of Environmental Health and Sciences, which is part of the NIH. And honoring Chip's work and listening to his story was really important to me. I got to know Chip a number of years ago, and he's episode number 54.
00:20:29
Speaker
And he, you know, his work with NIHS and the work of the people that work at the NIHS in the worker training program is to activate and come together to curate training for first responders in times of national crisis.
00:20:47
Speaker
And CHIP had been doing that work for, I think it was something like 30 years. And so national crisis. So it's when there's an oil spill, hurricane Katrina, 9-11,
00:21:06
Speaker
the Exxon Valdez, the pandemic, you know, things that happen where people have to respond and we need workers to stay safe. That's the effort that Chip led with NIEHS and his work in worker justice and his stories around it for the decades and decades that he did the work. I just really want to make space for him to be able to tell his story in honor
00:21:35
Speaker
all of that work. And so that was super important to me.
Future Plans and Listener Engagement
00:21:42
Speaker
And then I mentioned Mark Catlin earlier, who again, a historian. And so when there's an opportunity to put things in perspective in terms of place and time,
00:21:56
Speaker
It's Mark that I reach out to. You know, when OSHA was talking about doing an emergency temporary standard, I'm like, Mark, what's the precedence for this? Can you come on the show and talk about it? Or we're going to sell up, you know, it's time to honor and celebrate the work of people who came long before OSHA was ever around, you know, people like Alice Hamilton.
00:22:17
Speaker
And, you know, who were the people, who were those leaders, who were the people that were doing this work and research before, you know, health and safety was even a thing. Occupational health was even, you know, it wasn't in the mainstream conversation, so I invite Mark to come in and put things into place and time. And so, again, I love all of my guests, but some of those really leave a mark on me.
00:22:44
Speaker
That's great, Jill. And I do hope that we can find a way to list all these with links to make the listeners have the ability to go through and listen to them at their leisure. The next set of questions, and you're speaking, you know, my mind is racing.
00:23:00
Speaker
and well ask what you want you know I don't the microphone is yours oh gosh did I just say that so the next the next area has to do with change change is inevitable um whether you're talking time pressure the flow of water wind things change and so I want to go back in time with you so let's get in the DeLorean with Doc Brown and go back to when you and I had met
00:23:24
Speaker
And this was 28 years ago, I think we clocked it at. You had just left the University of Minnesota Duluth with your master's degree. I had recently joined Minnesota OSHA from my undergraduate degree in chemical engineering.
00:23:41
Speaker
Um, I do remember you were already, you know, very wise, you know, you, you could tell you, you had, you had your mindset, you know what you're going to do. I was arrogant and immature. I was 23 years old and I know I spoke off color and I, I don't know. I was also 23 years old, by the way. Yeah. But you, you were, you were,
00:24:07
Speaker
I was the I was the naughty child and and I mean we had a lot of fun though and so fast-forward to and I mean you know we've kept in contact so fast-forward to today look you know somehow I got to where I am I don't know if I've just fooled people this long but you on the other hand
00:24:26
Speaker
You know, this, not only, I mean, the podcast is one small aspect of your career and your achievements. It really is. I mean, and I don't think people, you know, know you as well as, I bet they want to. You're visionary, you're spiritual. So, you know, before we really get into too much of the kissy huggy stuff, I'm interested, and I think your listeners are interested too,
00:24:53
Speaker
What does the future look like for you and your podcast? Do you have plans to change or evolve, or are you going to kind of stay the course?
00:25:01
Speaker
Hmm. Well, I'm gonna get back in the DeLorean with you for just a second Before I answered that question You know you said that I was pretty serious in set When we met back 20, you know when we were both 23 years old 28 some years ago Todd I think that's only because
00:25:23
Speaker
When I got the job with OSHA, I was stuck in a remote location in the northwest corner of Minnesota with the responsibility for inspecting in 11 counties along the Canadian border and the North Dakota border with a car that broke down on me a lot all by myself with a badge.
00:25:46
Speaker
So the serious part just, you know, there wasn't much of a choice. I had to figure it out. It was sink or swim. 23 years old with a badge and a broken down state vehicle. Anyway, so probably need 1.21 gigawatts of power to get myself out of that situation. Anyway, so plans for the future with the podcast. You know, that's something we really want to ask the listeners.
00:26:16
Speaker
So.
00:26:18
Speaker
Our goal with that, in terms of asking the listeners, is expect to see a survey in the show notes of this episode where we're going to ask some of those questions. And I really want to hear from listeners. I occasionally get to hear from some of you, and I really love it when you reach out and send a note. Often they come through LinkedIn. People send a note about maybe an episode they've heard or an idea for a guest, and I really appreciate that.
00:26:48
Speaker
So in terms of the future, one idea is to ask all of you. I'm interested to hear from you. And if you just want to send me an email, you can do that too. jjames at hsi.com. You can send me an email. I'd be perfectly okay with hearing your ideas for that. And I welcome them. So thanks in advance for that.
00:27:09
Speaker
And then, you know, my thoughts initially on that are if you've been listening for a long time and you've kind of seen the progression over the four years, you've noticed that I'm asking more and more guests who have topical expertise in certain areas to come on.
00:27:28
Speaker
And so I always want to honor people's stories and how they got into the work. But I've also been really tapping people who have a particular niche that they can talk about. So for example, you've heard a guest recently speak about psychological safety. You've heard another guest talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion and how it impacts our professional practice.
00:27:55
Speaker
There have been guests who are experts on things like ammonia or lead, you know, really digging into topics like that. And so I think in terms of future, I like to be able to find people who are topical experts in things. And I'll be curious to know if the survey results agree with that kind of thing or if we take another direction.
00:28:23
Speaker
Do you have suggestions? Hey, this is your world. I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut.
00:28:32
Speaker
Oh, man. In terms of more topical things, other topics that I want to develop in the future, like pay attention.
Contemporary Issues and Pandemic Focus
00:28:47
Speaker
And if you're interested in ES&G, environmental, social, and governance, that's a thing that's really starting to take off.
00:28:56
Speaker
And we as health and safety professionals, you know, have responsibility in those areas too. So you can look forward to some episodes on that. I've been looking for some people to speak on that subject specifically as well. Yeah.
00:29:12
Speaker
So your podcast was well established two years prior to the pandemic. And you know, as well as I do when the pandemic hit podcast spring out of the ground everywhere. So and you know, you and I had talked about it. We saw a lot of flashes in the pan over the last couple of years.
00:29:36
Speaker
And we've also seen maybe some podcasters, I'm not gonna name anybody, but they may have done or said things as a stunt to try to get more attention, but they lack the substance, so they disappear. Now, I hate to ask you this, but I think your listeners may wanna know, would you mind sharing how you select your guests? Any interesting or odd ways you either connect with people or places you've gone to interview people?
00:30:04
Speaker
Mm hmm. Sure, sure. You had mentioned, you had mentioned the pandemic. And I guess shout out to all the special episodes we did in 2020 and 2021 that were very focused on the pandemic. We had 13
00:30:24
Speaker
pandemic focused podcast during that time and that was with great intentionality. I suspected and it's been confirmed that those of us
00:30:39
Speaker
in this field were in over our heads, right? And, you know, being asked to do so many things we've never done before, invited to tables, maybe we've never been before. And I really thought about how can I bring information to the listeners that might help them, you know, to be able to continue moving forward with their jobs during that time.
00:31:03
Speaker
And so, with great intentionality and so much appreciation for the guests that came on during that time to share their wisdom, to share resources with so many people, really appreciate that. In terms of how do I find guests, a couple of different ways. You know, when we first got started,
00:31:24
Speaker
Todd, you gave me names of people you thought would be good to share stories. And thank you for that. I appreciate that. I pay attention to LinkedIn. And so when I say I pay attention to LinkedIn, it means I'm reading what people are talking about, things that they're writing.
00:31:43
Speaker
things that just resonate with me. And if someone's written something that I thought was particularly insightful, I'll simply reach out to them and say, you know, I just read something you wrote. Would you mind having a conversation with me about coming on the podcast and talking about that?
00:32:02
Speaker
So that's one way. I attend conferences, virtual conferences, in the last two years. And I do presentations as part of my role with HSI. And sometimes I have the great opportunity to co-present with someone or listen to someone at a conference. And they may say something that just really sparked something in me. I'm like, gosh, they've got something to talk about. They've got a story here.
00:32:31
Speaker
And so I'll reach out to people for that reason. So like my last few guests, Sabina and Tiffany, we had co-presented at a conference together. And so I reached out to them for that reason. You know, and then sometimes I'm just thinking about a topic like
00:32:54
Speaker
Gosh, after George Floyd, I was really thinking about police officers a lot and their work, the good, the bad, and the ugly of it. And that's part of workplace health and safety as well. And so I found someone who specializes in the study of their work and all the dimensions and complexity of that.
00:33:22
Speaker
and found a guest to come on and talk about that. A guest that I have coming up soon is a man named John Doney who's a thought leader with the National Safety Council and he and I were recently presenting at a virtual conference and he said a sentence that just grabbed me.
00:33:47
Speaker
and it grabbed me so hard I wrote it down word for word I reached out to him and I said John you just said this thing like you've got me can you come on the podcast and talk about it and so John will be a guest coming soon and and so those are those are some of the ways um
On-Location Interviews and Challenges
00:34:05
Speaker
I think you asked me places that I've gone to interview. I told you about my trip to University of Notre Dame to be able to interview Charlie and Eric Kloss. I've taken the podcast on the road twice, well, two other times in addition to Notre Dame.
00:34:24
Speaker
Both times have been to the NSC Congress and Expo in 2018 and 2019 and recorded live from the podcast, or live from the Expo floor there, which also was, I had mentioned Debbie Hershman earlier as one of the people that I was kind of nervous to interview.
00:34:50
Speaker
The other person, I didn't mention this before, but when I was at the NSC conference, Dr. Scott Geller was one of my guests, as well as his daughter, Dr. Krista Geller. And so when I interviewed Dr. Geller, that was like bananas. Live on the conference floor, we're recording it via camera and audio, and there's this,
00:35:20
Speaker
group of people that were standing around as I was interviewing Dr. Geller whispering like, was that Dr. Geller? Is that Dr. Geller? You know, like he's a legend. Dr. Geller is a legend in this group of people that's gathering around and I'm like, holy
00:35:34
Speaker
You know, I've got, you know, I'm sitting at the foot of a sage here talking. That was a really interesting interview too, and Dr. Geller's been nice enough to come back on the show more than once, but in terms of interesting places of taking the show, NSC and Notre Dame for sure.
00:35:56
Speaker
Yeah. And I, I agree with what you said about Dr. Geller and his daughter. Um, you know, he, he was one of the first keynotes I ever heard at a conference and it wanted me to become an academic. I told him that and he kind of smiled, but you know, between Dr. Geller and, um, Dan Miller.
00:36:16
Speaker
you know, those two, not directly, but just by hearing them talk really wanted me to go pursue, you know, advanced degrees. So enough about me, you know, those are those are those are good things. And gosh, you know, just to talk about Dr. Geller for just a moment more for anyone who doesn't maybe you just start starting out in your career and you're like, Dr. Scott Geller, who is that Dr. Geller professor at Virginia Tech,
00:36:44
Speaker
for a very long time has written many, many books that I'm not even going to try to name any of them. But if you've ever used or heard the term behavior-based safety, Dr. Keller coined it.
00:37:00
Speaker
And what I learned on the podcast episode that he did with me at the National Safety Council is he does not use those terms anymore. He does not say that word because he doesn't like what happened to it after he wrote about it. The whole practice of behavior-based safety, in his opinion, got bastardized and he doesn't talk about it anymore.
00:37:23
Speaker
right anyway i think yeah i think maybe in a future future episode maybe you could like pontificate on other podcasts that others could listen to but i don't want to deviate from the focus on yours and in in that thought though um what if
00:37:40
Speaker
Somebody is listening to you for the very first time. So whatever episode it is, it's the first time they listen to it. They've missed 90 plus before. I kind of feel like this is like the rewind episode on Seinfeld. It's like you see all the parts of the ones, you got to go back and watch them.
00:37:59
Speaker
If you could, you don't have to list. You don't have to go crazy
Top Episodes and Diversity Efforts
00:38:02
Speaker
here. But just if you could grab just a handful of episodes that you'd want someone who's brand new to this podcast to listen to, what would they be?
00:38:13
Speaker
It seems like this would be a good time to share those top five performers that I talked about in the beginning based on our statistics. So let's do a count up from number five to the one that has the most downloads.
00:38:31
Speaker
So in the number five spot is episode number 70. And its title is From Firefighting to Ammonia. And my guess was Gary Smith. And Gary is, you know, if you want to talk or learn, if you have anything to do with ammonia in your job right now, that would be the episode to go back and listen to. Gary's definitely a historian from the way back and on the cutting edge of the laws that were created.
00:39:00
Speaker
before they were created. In the number four spot is right right before episode number 70 is episode number 69. It's called safety from every perspective and my guest was Paul Penn and Paul has everything to say about has Whopper before has Whopper was a thing.
00:39:23
Speaker
and his work that he did when that law was passed and how instrumental he was on that among lots of other things and interesting stories that Paul had to tell. In the number three spot,
00:39:39
Speaker
with 3,687 downloads is episode number 75. And it's titled Finding the Best Way to Protect Your Workers. And my guest there was Dr. Rachel Jones from the University of Utah School of Medicine.
00:39:57
Speaker
And that was one of the COVID episodes where Dr. Jones is really talking a lot about, well, lots of ways to protect your workers. And it was just a fascinating episode. In the number two spot is episode number 50 with 5,383 downloads.
00:40:18
Speaker
That was the very first episode I did around COVID-19 and that title is what employers need to know about coronavirus and that was with Deborah Roy. Deborah was president-elect for ASSP at that time and she had really worked on a plan for
00:40:40
Speaker
airborne hazards in a job that she had previously had. So she actually had like essentially a playbook for people and she talked about it on that episode. And then in the number one spot, this is where we need the drum roll, in the number one spot is episode number 78 with 6,185 downloads. So remember the average for us is
00:41:03
Speaker
What did I say earlier? Close to 1900, something like that. So 6,185 downloads. The title of that episode is, do I want to stay in safety with my guest, Erin? And I think that's just surprising and also amazing. Do I want to stay in safety?
00:41:23
Speaker
So those would be the those are the top five of of all time so far and then I guess I just want to give a shout out to anyone who's listening who's maybe just starting in their career and you want to hear from someone who's young and they're in the profession who's just getting going and the things that they're doing and my some of my well so many young
00:41:47
Speaker
favorite professionals, but I'm thinking about a guest named Yodit, who is in California. Her episode is number 64. Ashley with the Ironworkers, she's episode number 65.
00:42:06
Speaker
Eric, number 72, he is working with the NIEHS, which I mentioned Chip Hughes earlier. Eric, super interesting person. And Carolina at episode number nine, Carolina is the health and safety professional at Pixar. And these, these four young professionals just, they, in awe, in awe of their work.
00:42:35
Speaker
Thank you for that. And I hope people do check that out. And if you are listening and either you're thinking about going into safety or you're currently a safety student, as a professor, I would recommend that you search out on YouTube the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire documentary created by Frontline. It is emotional. It is visceral.
00:42:59
Speaker
And what I took away from it was the sort of the inside look at what these women were going through in their lives prior to this absolute disaster for sure, but really is the birth of the safety movement in America. So with that.
00:43:19
Speaker
Jill? Absolutely. You can't help yourself, Professor Lucian. I know. I can't. These are the things you have to talk about. And the triangle short ways fire, that's absolutely like a must for anyone in our profession to pay attention to. Yeah. The first thing you need if you're going to go into this profession is passion. And if you watch that, it doesn't affect you.
00:43:41
Speaker
Yeah, go ahead. Follow Aaron. Because I also had talked to Aaron about it. And anybody who comes to talk to me about safety, I am brutally honest about what I think and really try to get down to the brass tacks of what they want to do with their careers. OK, enough about me. Jill, I love your show for two main reasons. First, I kind of mentioned it earlier. It's authentic because you're authentic. And your guests are sharing authentic stories.
00:44:04
Speaker
Second is that you have a very diverse community of guests. I mean, you've named world experts and things all the way down to people who have experienced a story or are just getting into it. And that's amazing. Some stories and experiences are unique. Others are shared and very common. I like to hear about the wide range of paths people take into this profession, as I know you do too. And I think that's what brings so many safety professionals from all different backgrounds back to listen time and time again.
00:44:33
Speaker
But you also attract non-safety people, too. To me, that puts you ahead of the curve for diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is a big thing right now that we're trying to understand and insert, or not insert, but meld into the things we do. Now, I know this is a passion of yours, so would you share your emphasis on being diverse, equitable, and inclusive for the safety profession?
00:44:57
Speaker
Thanks for asking this question. It's true. Our guests represent various backgrounds, education, training, tenure, and I do include non-safety people. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of a gender economist I had on the show.
00:45:14
Speaker
a workers' compensation expert, a cognitive scientist, a diversity equity inclusion expert, a medical sociologist, and an occupational health researcher,
Future of Safety Profession and Mental Health
00:45:27
Speaker
as well as an organizational psychologist, to name a few. When we conceived of this podcast, I set specific goals for myself regarding representation.
00:45:40
Speaker
Minimally regarding genders, I wanted an equal number of women and men's voices at the podcast table. My recent guest Sabina cited a statistic that women only make up 19% of our professional practice.
00:45:59
Speaker
a number which is really disappointing and actually surprised me. I thought that after being in this profession for 28 years now, I figured it just had to be higher and yet it's not. And I guess maybe that's why I asked a gender economist on the show to talk about women in STEM and how we might encourage more women to join us in this field of work.
00:46:24
Speaker
But to date, to date, I'm happy to report I've had 44 female guests and 43 male guests, a number that I actually track and I hope will include other genders as the podcast continues.
00:46:40
Speaker
Another goal that I set was to ensure that I was paying attention to my affinity bias as a white woman and ensure I was inviting minority groups to the podcast table. And speaking of affinity bias, the other goal I set was to ensure our guests represented all 50 states and territories in the United States.
00:47:02
Speaker
When we first got started, I noticed many of my guests were coming from the Upper Midwest in Minnesota and Wisconsin where you and I are from, another one of my affinity biases. So I printed a map of the United States and I started coloring in
00:47:17
Speaker
of the state so I could see who was missing. I don't have all the states and territories represented yet, but I'm working on it. And as the years have gone on, I'm happy to report I have had guests from outside the United States, including guests from Australia, Canada, and Tanzania. Something I hope to continue as we add depth and richness of voice and story and lived experience.
00:47:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I, you know, Jill, you know, we just came from a couple of day meeting and he was face to face. And I also want the listeners to know that I know we all were forced to make drastic changes and adapt quickly because of the pandemic. And it's going to take a little bit longer, I think, to adjust back. But the in-person meetings right now are wonderful.
00:48:10
Speaker
and like I was supposed to cover like this whole agenda I just let people talk you know and I sat back and listened and I just feel like that's what you're bringing to people you know they don't have to go anywhere to like listen but they can listen to the people on your podcast and reach out to you personally and yeah I think that's wonderful so
00:48:31
Speaker
Looking at the clock, we are almost out of time. Unfortunately, this has truly been enlightening experience for me, Jill, and hopefully for all the listeners, too. And I have a couple non-softball questions for you, my friend. Oh, great. So I've got two. I'll read them. I'll read the first one. I'll let you answer it. Then we'll get to the second one. And that is, what are your current concerns or worries about the safety profession?
00:48:54
Speaker
Hmm. Uh, well, based on the fact that our number one performing episode is titled, do I want to stay in safety? That's my biggest concern right now. Um, burnout. Um, burnout for our profession because of the last couple of years and, um, people not practicing resiliency.
00:49:17
Speaker
Like that's my biggest concern. And I hope, you know, for anyone who's listening to this now, you may have noticed I've done a couple of episodes recently on burnout. And I've also had a lot of guests talk about resiliency and how they practice it in their profession. And I hope that it's helping some of you as a reminder
00:49:41
Speaker
of how really important that is. As a profession, we're wired to take care of human beings. Worker justice, that's our thing. We don't wanna see any harm come to the human beings that are part of our charge. But we often don't turn that back on ourselves. And I think it's so important to do that, especially right now. So that's my biggest concern. I wanna see people really taking care of themselves.
00:50:11
Speaker
And that's a great point. One of the things I opened this morning's meeting with asking all the members just kind of share how you're feeling, you know, and this is an SSP, right? This is an SSP meeting. Yeah, regional meeting. And we have a couple people on on the executive board that
00:50:29
Speaker
Maybe some of the things started before the pandemic, but now they're really into mental health and suicide prevention in the construction industry. But the construction industry isn't unique from people who have served in the military. Right now, adolescent suicides are skyrocketing. We really need to start looking out for each other. And just like in safety, when we started talking about off the job safety,
00:50:56
Speaker
I think we need to consider just life mental health and not just work mental health. We really need to
00:51:06
Speaker
If someone looks down, just go, oh, they'll figure it out by themselves. No, we've got to go talk to them. A hand on the shoulder. Hey, how are you doing? You don't know what that can do for someone who has been walking around with a dark cloud over their head for a couple days. So please, everybody, maybe that would be a good future episode. I could give you some names of some people that have been doing this for a while. And at least people would know what resources are available and that they are not alone.
00:51:35
Speaker
You know, I've heard, like my friend Dr. DJ Moran said, that depression and mental health issues are as common as the common cold, but we don't talk about it.
00:51:46
Speaker
That's right. Good time to remind people that when you're talking about mental health, Todd, and especially at times where it can maybe get a little scary and you don't know what to do or how to act or feel like this wasn't part of my training, there is training that you can take.
00:52:06
Speaker
called Mental Health First Aid. Like literally you can Google that term Mental Health First Aid. And the association NAMI does training, you know, like just like you get CPR and first aid training, you can get Mental Health First Aid training. I've had it personally, I have used it numbers of times. And it was really a game changer for me in terms of knowing what to do. Like it gives you some power.
00:52:34
Speaker
of knowing how to approach someone, what to say. You get like a tool so you know what to say and what to do. So I would recommend taking that course to anyone. So the next question is sort of the polar opposite. The polar opposite, okay. I've got good news and bad news. Okay, bad news first. Next question, what do you see as signs of hope and success for the safety profession?
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah, and so we've talked about like the hard parts of the pandemic, right, and kind of how things have been laid bare and all of the difficult things, but you know, out of the ashes,
00:53:20
Speaker
you know, like the Phoenix rises some good things. And so this time that we've been through together and that we're continuing right now, what I am seeing and what I am hearing from our profession is the good thing the pandemic has done for us is this.
00:53:41
Speaker
you know, pandemic happens, it's 2020, employers across the globe are like, whoo, what do we do?
00:53:51
Speaker
you know, how are we gonna keep the wheels on this bus in terms of keeping our business operational and going, keeping our employees healthy and safe? What are we going to do? And you know how every time we go to a conference, every time we pick up a journal article, we're always going to see the what, how to get management buy-in, right? Like we all know this. People write about it constantly.
00:54:19
Speaker
2020 happens, our leaders, our management structures are like, hey, let's go tap that safety person on the shoulder. They must know what to do, right?
Conclusion and Gratitude
00:54:32
Speaker
And so what I'm hearing from our profession
00:54:37
Speaker
is that for sometimes the first time in their career, they got invited to tables where they've never been before. It might be leadership tables. It might be working closely with their HR department. It might be getting to know their operations person. I even heard someone say the other week
00:54:53
Speaker
that they got to work with their CFO in their company during the pandemic and said, I had no idea what CFOs even did and I have such a great appreciation for them. But the pandemic opened doors for us, got us seats at tables where we've never been before and what I'm hearing from our profession is, we're not going back. We've got a seat at the table. People get what our job is now because we got to help and we got to build
00:55:23
Speaker
coalitions, alliances with our counterparts across different functional work groups in our companies and it's going well and we like it. And so I think from that whole how to get management buy-in, I think the pandemic moved that forward for our profession and I think that's hopeful and beautiful in all of the mess and mire that has been the last couple of years.
00:55:52
Speaker
And I'll just one more shout out just to say, you know, it was really, we've kind of gotten a little bit comfortable with, you know, moving to the virtual meetings. I just want to let everybody know, please, please, please, if it's safe, go back to the face to face. You know, as an instructor professor, there has been missed
00:56:18
Speaker
opportunities for to teach students things beyond the curriculum. I feel like sometimes when we just sign on to something, our mind is somewhere else or focus somewhere else. The face to face. Listen to other people tell stories. That's where I get all the learning. That's where I'll get all my enjoyment when I go to conferences and all that other stuff is.
00:56:37
Speaker
the side conversations the questions that people ask the being able to actually meet the person versus just listen to their presentation so that's just the last thing so Jill we are at the end and I want to give you back your podcast not too damaged I think I get my deposit back so I would just ask you to please you know go ahead and just say whatever you want to close out this fourth anniversary first fourth anniversary episode
00:57:06
Speaker
Oh well thank you Todd and thanks for being hosts today. You did a great job and it's really weird to be on the other side of the microphone. I can tell you that for sure. For our listeners, gosh thank you so much. Four years for a podcast is a big deal and the fact that we're in the top 10% is huge.
00:57:27
Speaker
So thanks for coming back time and again, time and again. Thanks for everyone who's been a guest and willing to come back. Some of you have been guests more than once. Thanks to everyone who has suggested a guest, including if it's yourself.
00:57:46
Speaker
I'm not wanting to stop this anytime soon. I think we have so much more to share with one another. And so again, I guess a reminder to take that survey. If you want to reach out to me personally and share any ideas that you might have or just reflections on the podcast itself as we're celebrating, you can certainly send me an email.
00:58:09
Speaker
jjames at hsi.com. And Todd, thanks again for being with me today. Thank you so much, Jill. And thank you all for spending your time listening for the past four years and today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution toward the common good, making sure your workers, including your temporary workers, make it home safe every day.
00:58:34
Speaker
If you aren't subscribed and you want to hear past and future episodes, like all the ones that I talked about today, you can subscribe in iTunes, the Apple Podcast app, or any other podcast player that you'd like. And you can also find all the shows with their transcripts at hsi.com. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review us on iTunes. It really helps us connect the show with more and more health and safety professionals. Special thanks to Naeen Jarisey, our podcast producer. And until next time, thanks for listening.
00:59:04
Speaker
you