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Why two surgeons are going to law school
10 Plays3 hours ago
Join Bobby and Steph as they discuss their why and how two dentists, who are happy being surgeons, would go to law school. They chat LSAT, applications, workload, and all the things in between. Have you thought about going to law school as a non-traditional applicant? If so, this motorcycle diary is for you
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Between Two Teeth'
00:00:07
Speaker
Hey there, guys. This is Bobby and Steffi Steff, and we are Between Two Teeth, the motorcycle edition. Steffi Steffi, what are we talking about today? We're talking about
Why Start Law School?
00:00:18
Speaker
how we decided it. We're talking today about why we started law school, how we decided it, how to do it, and, you know, just in general, kind of our background, thought process on the whole thing.
Balancing Part-Time Law School and Work
00:00:30
Speaker
Bobby? We get asked that question a lot. And for background, we are in Central Texas right now. We're going through some water crossing. So if you hear one of us ah sound like we're swimming, it very much may be the case. But why law school? For me, since high school, I've always thought about being intern.
00:00:49
Speaker
How about you, Steph? You know, I... Get on your radar screen. Yeah. So on my radar screen, and sorry if you hear a lot of wind noise. I've got a hole in my helmet that creates a weird sound. So...
00:01:00
Speaker
I've got a hole in my head. at least you know law school haha Law school was never really on the radar for me. Instead, when I started to think about law school, it was after my time on an ADA eight council called the Council on Members Insurance and Retirement Program. This is the American Dental Association.
00:01:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's for the American Dental Association. And so once I got on that council, i started interacting with actuaries and other lawyers and financial planners. And I realized that the law permeates many aspects of life. And then, Bobby, I saw you started to consider law yourself, and I thought, man, what better way to do law school than with your spouse?
00:01:38
Speaker
Like, what could go wrong? We're in private practice together. We're busy Monday through Friday, and the cool thing about part-time law school is it lets you continue to work while doing law school on the side.
Journey to Law School
00:01:51
Speaker
Yeah, for us, probably 20 to 30 hours a week of extra work.
00:01:56
Speaker
I loved reading. I don't like reading this much, quite frankly. How about you, Steph? Has this turned off your love of reading? Or you get into it. You get into those law books and you're marking it up with highlighters and pens.
00:02:08
Speaker
You know, don't don't be fooled. you know It is interesting to a point. It's a law textbook. reads like a law textbook. The cool thing about law school is it's a bunch of stories.
00:02:21
Speaker
and It applies to everything. if you look at Stories are a little easier to memorize and they're easier to engage with. And so that's the biggest difference between studying science and biology and physiology is that law in law school, we are studying stories and the outcomes and judgments of those stories.
00:02:43
Speaker
And speaking of judgment, we're coming up to our first water crossing. We're coming up. Ooh, a little bit slick there on the. All right. Well, here we go. We're going to see if Steph's going to swim or not swim. She's going through.
00:02:55
Speaker
That's cool. Here I go. All right. It's not mossy. That's good. We got someone watching on the other side. All right. We have first water crossing. You know, life, I've been swimming there for a little bit. but um I looked at i So I've always wanted to go to law school, thought about doing it after dental school.
00:03:14
Speaker
It always interested me. i knew attorneys kind of growing up. I'm a state board regulator. We deal with lots of legal stuff. That stuff excited me. I saw that attorneys helped really important things happen in the world. And I also saw that attorneys helped prevent really important things from happening.
00:03:31
Speaker
You know, actually, my dad the only other interaction I've had with an attorney growing up is my grandpa had a patent And there was a patent interaction um or suit that he had with another person. And that was about my only interaction with with legal teams other than when I was on the
Preparing for the LSAT
00:03:52
Speaker
ADA council. And so you've never you've never been in jail. with that So for a long time, I mean, i this was just completely off my radar, which is kind of how I love to live. I ah love the opportunities come up.
00:04:04
Speaker
You know part of us getting into law school. And it was taking the LSAT. That was probably our first kind of brutal big, big moment. And that was gross. Let me tell that story. I've been studying for the LSAT for a while. Then I stopped and decided, no, I'm not going to law school. So it took like a couple of years of a break and then decided, OK, I'm going to do it. I used one program and wasn't really gaining traction. And then Steph started looking at it saying, you know what? I've been looking around this LSAT stuff. This actually seems kind of fun.
00:04:35
Speaker
And you found a program. Did I use the word fun? Well, I think you did. You like puzzles, that kind of stuff. Do you? want i I did not enjoy studying for LSAT. I appreciated it was it was a hurdle, and that's what it is. So we did that together. We had ended up using this program, LSAT, even no financial interest.
Advice for Prospective Law Students
00:04:57
Speaker
ah It worked. We both took LSAT, did well, and applied. i love I love that story, Bobby. And, you know, from my perspective, it you know, it's just a little different.
00:05:09
Speaker
When I started seeing you study for the LSAT, you know, I got curious. I don't know if I would consider it fun so much, but it was definitely different than any sciences. And I remember in high school, i always loved English and literature and This was a way to kind of get back in touch with that side of things.
00:05:28
Speaker
Curiosity fully described you. You are probably the most curious person I've ever Whenever I started to look at that a little bit closer. Thank you, my friend.
00:05:39
Speaker
We're going out of the gates right now. We're out of the gates. Yeah, so whenever I started to look into... some of the LSAT material, it it wasn't that it was fun so much that it was so different and curious and just, you know, a little exciting in a way and that it was so different.
00:05:57
Speaker
I think you were a lot better at enjoying the journey. You're better at enjoying the journey, I think, than I am. I looked at it as this is a hurdle. I got to get through this. This is a different way of thinking.
00:06:08
Speaker
reading comprehension, you know, as you mentioned, you and I are scientists. That background changes your lens. If I read a question on the LSAT talks about science or a doctor, feel wrong. And that's the cool thing, too, is that whenever we're doing, you know, you have dental and medical school entrance exams. And, you know, some of it is based on group memorization, but a lot of it is based on application.
00:06:29
Speaker
So the only difference here is that the LSAT is application in real time. You don't know when you're going into kind of medical and dental school exams, you know the basic physiology that's underlining things.
00:06:43
Speaker
But without law school, they give you a subject matter out intentionally that you know nothing about. And then you have to use your deductive reasoning and any kind legal applications to match the scenario.
Managing Law School with a Dental Practice
00:06:57
Speaker
So that's what makes it truly unique.
00:06:59
Speaker
It got my brain going. So what advice would you have where the rubber meets the road for someone that says, you know what? I'm interested in law school. I'm a professional. I'm working. Where do I need to start? What do you do?
00:07:10
Speaker
oh So for something like that, I would say it's pretty it's pretty routine. We've got a bunch of animals in the world i don what animals running. Is that a goose?
00:07:21
Speaker
the vulture Look at that. That's super cool. These are big, big birds. They look like turkeys. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. We're in central Texas, kind of around Glen Rose.
00:07:31
Speaker
I don't I've seen three turkeys in a row. There's literally turkey running down the middle of the road. I don't want to say chasing a turkey, but the turkey has not chosen to leave my path. It is, it's going 20 miles an hour. It's trying to fly. Now it's flying. We are actually running with the turkeys. We literally, we've had a few run beside us.
00:07:52
Speaker
That was one of the most hilarious things. Anyways, back to Elsa. Back to your question. Back to your question. I think it is something you really want to sit with for a touch of time, but not too long.
00:08:04
Speaker
Part of the way Bobby and I have lived our lives is we have an opportunity arise. We ask ourselves, hey, is the juice worth the squeeze on this? Sometimes the answer is obvious, but other times it's not so obvious. And if that's the case for you, if you're like, man, I've always wanted to go to law school. I've been thinking about it. I feel like I'm too busy.
00:08:23
Speaker
Figure out a way to make it work. That's where part-time programs like the one at Northeastern make it doable for us. Bobby and I are still full-time practitioners. flower blessing The blessing and the curse is exactly what you just described.
00:08:37
Speaker
We will think will think about things and sometimes not overthink it. I think decision paralysis is a big thing that many, many, many of us do. It is a huge decision going to law school.
00:08:51
Speaker
But I think what I hear you say is just look at it, see if it's going to fit your life, and then just start studying. I don't know if I'd ask myself, will this fit my life? Because that's kind of like asking, hey, will a child fit my life? It doesn't really fit your life ever.
00:09:07
Speaker
You make it work, and you create space and time for the things that you're trying to incorporate. And so I think the better question is, is do I want to incorporate? Yeah. Is do I want to incorporate this into my life?
00:09:21
Speaker
And for Bobby and I, the answer was yes. And we found a way to make it work. And so right now we see patients Monday through Fridays, business as usual. And in the evenings, we have a class maybe on a Tuesday, Tuesday evening, maybe on a Thursday evening.
00:09:38
Speaker
On a busy week, we have one on a Tuesday and a Thursday. But other than that, we get to utilize asynchronous programming, which means we study when it suits our schedule. And that makes it so doable, even though it is stressful at times.
00:09:55
Speaker
I think certainly talking to people who are doing these types of programs, frankly, getting on Reddit. hearing people talk about working and law school. ah You know, we had a tough last week when you've got other meetings, law school classes.
00:10:09
Speaker
Yeah. And this and this this summer for Bobby and I is specifically troubling or challenging because we have two doctrinal classes. With these part-time law school programs, they try to only put one doctrinal class. And the easiest way I can describe what that is, is it's like taking a hard class in college or a hard class in a professional school. And they really, because we're part-timers, they really try to just have us focus on one hard class at a time. in this in summer though we've got And this summer, they have put two on the schedule. So this is really testing organizational skills, and it's also testing our ability to time manage, something that for Bobby and I, you know, I think we get right most of the time.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yes, doctrinal classes, torts, criminal law, civ pro, contracts, property is what we're doing now. Yeah, they're basically foundational classes that are based on both common law and statutes.
00:11:10
Speaker
And what makes them doctrinal is just they're so foundational to your understanding of the law and how it applies to scenarios. And frankly, it's as is is as exciting as it sounds, I think.
The Power of Storytelling
00:11:21
Speaker
yeah i'm having I'm having a hard time getting revved up for... they're important, but we're in the busy time right now. And I think kind of having a realistic outlook, if you're thinking about law school, you know, talk to people, talk to people, talk to people. And to your point, Seth, sometimes you don't know until you start walking on the journey as far as how things are going to fit into your own life.
00:11:45
Speaker
and What else people other advice would you? People will ask us, how do you talk to people? How do you find these people? Because you just don't you don't necessarily have dual degree, you know professionals or part time law students just running around at the farmer's market every day, easy access.
00:12:01
Speaker
So part of where we have found people are. They should be at the farmer's market. It's through LinkedIn. And LinkedIn has been able to connect us. to people who are in a similar spot. Also, ah telling your story. If you put yourself out there, other people who are asking the same questions will reach out. you know My story on my socials, my Instagram channel, I had dental school classmates reach out to me and say how they've always wanted to do law and how they're so excited that I'm doing it and they want me to tell them how it is so they can make their own decision.
00:12:37
Speaker
would I think that's really cool. Yes, we're we're in the dental profession. And when I talk at lectures, oftentimes I'll say, raise your hand if you They've thought about law school either mildly or in a serious way, and almost half the people put their hands up. It's a it's sort of a common thing. i I put my story out on my MBA group, which was all physicians that were doing an MBA together, and I probably had five or six reach out directly of, what program are you doing? How is it structured?
Balancing Expectations in Law and Dental School
00:13:09
Speaker
How does it work? So,
00:13:11
Speaker
Which kind of gets us back into the power of storytelling and the power putting yourself out there. And, you know, when we're at, we're going to go to Florida ah Dental Congress in and just this next week. And we're talking about communication and the power of storytelling.
00:13:28
Speaker
And storytelling, it's like a muscle. You got to build that muscle. It's okay to not be good at it. You just got to keep working at it. Here's what I would say. Law school for me has helped with my communication. It's made me more concerned about being exact.
00:13:43
Speaker
I say, know, attorneys are what's they use words as a. Is that a good way to say it? Sometimes it's a shield. Yeah, it's a strategic use of the English language.
00:13:58
Speaker
Sometimes words can be a shield and sometimes they can be a sword. And just depending on the scenario you're in and what the law allows, of course, you can utilize that your your benefit.
00:14:11
Speaker
What would you tell yourself right now for your law school journey? What would Stephanie Arganter say to Stephanie Arganter pre-law students? Well, if I am trying to... you say buckle up, buttercup?
00:14:25
Speaker
If I'm trying to reach back in time and just, you know... I wouldn't do anything different to this point. I
Choosing the Right Law School Program
00:14:32
Speaker
feel like i have done something in law school as a 36 year old that I wasn't able to do at dental school as a 22 year old, which is it's, it's balanced, balanced my own expectations for my grades, for what's going on in my life, for relationships.
00:14:53
Speaker
I've been able to do that a lot more effectively. If I approach law school now how I did dental school and the way I approach dental school, so much pressure I put on myself to just be the best student I could possibly be.
00:15:10
Speaker
Now, I didn't have a job when I was in dental school. That makes this a little bit different. I didn't have a husband when I was in dental school. That makes it a little different. Now, i and I didn't have patience either.
00:15:21
Speaker
You know, you have you start to have patience in your latter years, true, but in the most stressful parts of dental school, those first two couple years from an academic perspective, you know, it's just the books. It's just the the coursework. And I just put so much pressure on myself to get straight A's. And that's that's a lot.
00:15:39
Speaker
That's a really good point. And I think that's the advantage of hybrid programs that are part-time. It's Professionals, you're going to have a different lens through which you look at the world and you look at And I think for both of us, ah at least I can speak for myself, I'm heavily trying to use this new lens that I'm learning to kind of impact me as I as i do different things.
00:16:03
Speaker
And it's really cool. Well, listen, guys. I love it. Give me ah give me one more B here on that. And in part of this, Bobby, because it is important. Because I think a lot of people look at doing something big in their life, especially early to mid-career, as impossible because,
00:16:20
Speaker
When they approach challenging situations, and I think a lot of professionals do this, they have their type A personalities. They want to do the best they can at it. But then that creates an impossible situation. And most people don't embark on an adventure like law school or travel or start that new practice or or have.
00:16:39
Speaker
something else go on in your life because they're trying to approach with the same intensity and the same ah debilitating expectations. So I say instead, part of the reason Bobby and I were able to do law school is because we were able to separate those expectations to pacify them, to modify them, and to give ourselves a break on what we expected from ourselves with this venture.
00:17:03
Speaker
And that shift in frame and mindset allowed us to say, yes, let's do this unknown. And here's what I will say about you. You have shown me how having no fear or at least limited fear on so many different things. If you push past fear, you can do a whole lot of things that are really natural.
00:17:26
Speaker
It's a motorcycle journey, climbing a mountain, starting law school. a surgeon. I love that you're saying, pushing past fear, but it's it's that's not ah to really get you.
00:17:41
Speaker
it's not well It's part of the message. I would say the other part of it is Don't be paralyzed by having to have it perfect. Perfect. Oh, yes, yes, yes. are you a perfectionist? If and were, if we had put ourselves in a position to say we're only going to do law school, if we make the same kinds of grades that we made when we were in dental, medical, college, it would have been debilitating.
00:18:06
Speaker
There's no way. But we chose a law school, a program that actually does a pass-fail model and does honorifics. That means that you you know if you've got enough of the material by passing the class.
00:18:21
Speaker
And, yeah, sure, if you get, like, a you know, honorific, say you got high honors, honors, all of that gives you an extra pat on the back. But it doesn't mean that you didn't eat didn't meet the threshold of of knowledge and understanding. And so we chose this program with intentionality to take a little pressure off ourselves so that we could really balance our lives in the best way
Final Advice for Aspiring Law Students
00:18:45
Speaker
possible. And most importantly, so that we could say yes to this opportunity.
00:18:50
Speaker
Yes. And the other cool thing is they don't rank the individual students in the class because that would not have been ideal for Did you say that's correct statement?
00:19:02
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think the main thing is just don't wait for it to be perfect. and the the whole the whole saying of we're all living in a cage with a door wide open is just that that cage is our own expectations on ourselves.
00:19:16
Speaker
And the way you step out of that cage is to allow yourself to step beyond your own expectations. Yeah, totally get it. Well, guys, thanks for joining us. If you're thinking about a law school journey, talk to people.
00:19:30
Speaker
out there get some information and don't let fear hold you back thanks for joining us