Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to Curious Objects, brought to you by the magazine Antiques.
Speaker: I'm Ben Miller.
Speaker: It is always a thrill when I get to do an episode about silver.
Speaker: In case you don't know already, I'm a silver dealer myself at the firm Shrubsel in New York, so I am heavily biased.
Speaker: But it really is a special material because, well, it's literally made out of money.
Speaker: And newsflash, people have always cared a lot about money.
Speaker: So silver can connect us really intimately to people's values and preoccupations, and very careful records were often kept about silver objects.
Speaker: In fact, whole legal systems were established to regulate the production and sale of these pieces.
Speaker: And the owners of these objects even engraved their names and crests and coat of arms right onto them just to make abundantly clear whose wonderful thing it is.
Speaker: And all that information is such a privilege for those of us who want to use objects as a window into past lives and ways of life.
Speaker: So I am excited to be joined today by another silver dealer and a friend of mine, Oliver Newton.
Speaker: Oliver is the competitor you want to have.
Speaker: He is a young entrepreneur who went independent a few years ago and he is bringing fresh energy to the industry.
Speaker: He does a wonderful video series about pieces he has bought called The Silver Lining, which you should absolutely look up as soon as you're done with this episode.
Speaker: And like me, Oliver specializes in English silver from the 19th century and earlier.
Speaker: So today we're going to hear about his journey starting an antiques business from scratch, his love for antique silver, how he navigates the market today, where he finds his inventory, and above all, we're going to hear about his curious object, a fascinating and beautiful shaving bowl from the early 18th century.
Speaker: Oliver, thanks for joining me.
Speaker: Hi Ben, it's a pleasure to be on here.
Speaker: Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker: It's always great to speak to you and I'm very excited about this.
Speaker: Are you ready for some rapid fire questions?
Speaker: I'm ready as I'm gonna be.
Speaker: All right, let's go.
Speaker: What's the oldest object you personally own?
Speaker: It is a silver beaker made circa 1690 in Augsburg by a silvetsmith called Porcelanier.
Speaker: Yeah, so that's what 330 years old.
Speaker: That's not bad.
Speaker: Okay, there's an asteroid headed for Earth.
Speaker: And you've been selected for the escape pod.
Speaker: What one object are you bringing with you?
Speaker: Well, I think I'm looking at them as a pair of candlesticks made in 1770.
Speaker: Because, you know, if you've got a pair of candlesticks, then at least you can light up wherever you're going to.
Speaker: That's a fair point.
Speaker: I would hope your spacecraft might have electricity, but, you know.
Speaker: Yeah, but everything looks nicer under candlelight.
Speaker: So at least you can have some romance when you're having to leave Earth.
Speaker: What's the most valuable object that you've ever touched?
Speaker: It's probably going to be a diamond that was gone out for auction.
Speaker: But in terms of silver, I'd have to say it was the famous one of the famous Aldo Brandini collection of Renaissance tats, which I think there was 12, which you probably know about.
Speaker: And they are certainly in the seven figures.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, they were at the Met just a few years ago.
Speaker: Correct.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: You're now banned from your current field and you have to pick a new one.
Speaker: What's it going to be?
Speaker: It's going to sound a bit cliche, but I really love classic cars.
Speaker: It's something that is, for me, is a time machine into history.
Speaker: So I probably would do that.
Speaker: It's a passion of mine.
Speaker: You know, when you sit in a classic car, you really drive in a classic car, or lucky enough to drive it yourself, you just get transported back to time.
Speaker: And it's, in my opinion, the closest thing you can get to a time machine.
Speaker: What movie has the most interesting depiction of material culture?
Speaker: Yeah, this is a hard one because I'm not into movies.
Speaker: So I'd probably say it has to be something like Downton Abbey.
Speaker: And there was a movie.
Speaker: There was a movie.
Speaker: Not saying I like it, but it's in terms of what we do.
Speaker: It's probably got a pretty good depiction of how people use these objects.
Speaker: Yeah, I think they overall actually did quite a good job portraying the sorts of objects that these people were actually likely to have in their homes.
Speaker: What's your very favorite museum to visit?
Speaker: It has to be on my home turf, the Victoria and Albert Museum.
Speaker: It's somewhere I go on a very regular basis.
Speaker: And I love the Met in New York, but the V&A for me is just a fabulous place to go.
Speaker: What's one misconception that people have about your field that you'd like to correct?
Speaker: I think the misconception, and you've talked about this in your previous podcast, that silver is a real chore to own.
Speaker: It's only when you don't use it that it's a problem.
Speaker: It's when you do use it regularly, it doesn't get dirty.
Speaker: And it's something that's very easy to keep.
Speaker: What artist or craftsperson, living or dead, would you invite to dinner?
Speaker: Well, I think I'm going to have to stick to a silversmith and I'll probably have to
Speaker: But go back to Paul's thought again, although quite cliche, he made some of the greatest things and, you know, his experience working for Rundle Bridge and Rundle, making many of the great royal pieces that exist today.
Speaker: I'd love to chat with him and see, find out a bit more about that.
Speaker: What's the first object that you remember falling in love with?
Speaker: I would say falling in love is a strong word, but the first object that really got me into antiques were antique cameras when I was like six or seven years old.
Speaker: And I saw this camera in an antique shop, a camera which I actually have on my desk today, which I paid two pounds for.
Speaker: It fascinated me at the time.
Speaker: It was one of those old 1930s cameras with the sort of bellows on it.
Speaker: And it just fascinated me.
Speaker: Again, it was like a time machine.
Speaker: And, you know, as a six year old, that really opened my eyes to understanding history in a very real way.
Speaker: I love that you've kept that.
Speaker: That's so sweet.
Speaker: It doesn't work.
Speaker: Well, that's beside the point.
Speaker: What one book should an amateur read to start to understand your field?
Speaker: I think you've got to go with the basics.
Speaker: I mean, you've got some, as you know, amazing books on silver, but one that I, you know, I would say the first book on the bookshelf is probably like Michael Clayton's Dictionary of Goldsmiths and Silversmiths.
Speaker: A great book gives you a real cross-section of the silversmiths, the pieces, and just gives you a sort of very basic understanding of different periods, different styles, different silversmiths.
Speaker: And you can turn to a different page and have a completely different experience every day.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And I think that's something I always tell people that, you know, if you don't have any knowledge, just start there and just flick through it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And if you do have a lot of knowledge, you still might find it helpful from time to time.
Speaker: Funny enough, from time to time, I found things that, you know, I've bought that sort of are illustrated in the book, which is also very nice.
Speaker: But yeah, it's, you know, what I would say again, so I know I'm going over the one or two sentences, but again, it's these sort of longer books that you sort of, as you said, have to read.
Speaker: chapter by chapter, but something like that is just great.
Speaker: You can pick it up, see a couple of things, put it down, do the same thing the next day or next week.
Speaker: What was your last international trip?
Speaker: I think it was to your home turf to New York City.
Speaker: What did you do here?
Speaker: Well, I came to see you.
Speaker: And I go on a relatively regular basis.
Speaker: I have quite a lot of customers there.
Speaker: Should I be saying that to you?
Speaker: No, Jake.
Speaker: Now I've got quite a lot of customers there and I, you know, come to see you and ShrubSol.
Speaker: So, you know, dealing with customers in America and in the UK, it's, you know, whilst we do a lot with technology over the phone and over pictures, I think it's also important to catch up with customers, certainly those who can't travel to the UK.
Speaker: What's the coolest decorative arts discovery that you've made?
Speaker: It's hard to make discoveries.
Speaker: I think the best things I do is sort of find the provenance of objects.
Speaker: So I don't have a specific discovery that I made, although I am always stunning for finding that treasure, that story about that Sabage piece that that man found in a car boot sale that sold for $25 million that Rotsky's acquired.
Speaker: So I haven't discovered anything per se.
Speaker: But, you know, what I love is buying an object and doing the research on it and just finding the history.
Speaker: Not that that changes the value, it just makes it more interesting for me.
Speaker: What was the last object that you saw that gave you shivers?
Speaker: Well, I think it was an object I bought.
Speaker: I know it's a bit biased, but I had it about a year ago.
Speaker: It was this amazing sugar vase made by Digby Scott and Benjamin Smith by Rundle Bridge and Rundle, made in 1803.
Speaker: It was just outstanding.
Speaker: The coat of arms was actually the part of the design.
Speaker: So the handles were part of the coat of arms.
Speaker: And it was just such a jewel of an object.
Speaker: You know, often these pieces are large and they're tureens or candelabra.
Speaker: This was a sugar vase.
Speaker: So small, but just outstanding.
Speaker: And the minute I saw it, I knew I had to have it.
Speaker: It was just, and you know, as a business, you have to sell these objects, but it really did give me shivers when I saw it.
Speaker: Yeah, that's the eternal dilemma of being a dealer.
Speaker: You buy what you love only to lose it again.
Speaker: This is true.
Speaker: And of course, if you don't sell it, that's even worse.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker: Okay, let's talk about... That's the great thing about being a dealer is that, you know, I can't necessarily justify just being a collector and buying all these things, but you do get the pleasure of owning it even for a short amount of time.
Speaker: And that for me is still better than not owning it at all.
Speaker: Well, and presumably there's always something else coming down the line.
Speaker: So yeah, I'm very friendly with the customer who bought it and I do see it on a regular basis.
Speaker: So it's not the end of the world.
Speaker: That's nice.
Speaker: Okay, let's talk about our curious object for today.
Speaker: It's a shaving bowl from 1713.
Speaker: So a little over 300 years old by the London silversmith Anthony Nelm.
Speaker: For starters, can you just give us a mental image of what this object looks like?
Speaker: Yeah, so it's a, I suppose, oblong in shape.
Speaker: It's a bowl, essentially.
Speaker: And it's got a cutout where you would put your, I suppose, your footman would hold the bowl up and you would place your neck to the bowl in the water.
Speaker: And, you know, it would be poured and all the excess water would go into the bowl.
Speaker: But it's a very plain object.
Speaker: It's just quite a wide border, but no decoration apart from the original coat of arms.
Speaker: But just the most beautiful, plain, contemporary piece of silver.
Speaker: And if you turn it over, it's got those lovely hammer marks all over it where you can see it was risen from a flat piece of silver.
Speaker: And how big is it?
Speaker: It's just shy of 14 inches in length.
Speaker: Okay, so about the size of a large coffee table book, perhaps.
Speaker: Exactly, exactly.
Speaker: Or a nice shrub sole catalogue.
Speaker: Oh, flattery will get you everywhere.
Speaker: Okay, we're going to come back to this piece.
Speaker: But I want to start with a very general question, which is maybe impossible to answer.
Speaker: It may be very easy for you to answer.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Why do you love antique silver?
Speaker: Well, it's not something I grew up surrounded by.
Speaker: It wasn't a sort of a natural progression.
Speaker: As I said prior, I was very much into the thing that got me into antiques was cameras when I was a young, you know, young child.
Speaker: And then I continued to collect as I went through my teens.
Speaker: And it was when I was about 17, I wanted to look for a job, started putting my CVs in different people.
Speaker: And it was a silver dealer that got back to me and said, yeah, you can come work here, probably because there was not a huge demand for people working at silver dealers.
Speaker: But that said, I spent my summer working there and got exposed to a world that I never been exposed to objects that I never really had ever seen or handled.
Speaker: And I was just mesmerized instantly.
Speaker: And I instantly understood the magic of silver, you know.
Speaker: Silver was not like today where, say, for example, paintings are considered the most important commodity in someone's collection, not commodity, the most important part of someone's collection.
Speaker: Silver, when it was made, especially 17th, 18th,
Speaker: 19th century silver was essentially as you said in the introduction people's wealth people's money it was it was so uh central to their to their collection and when you understand that it just became fascinating um and i think also it was something i like to use things i like to enjoy things and silver i instantly saw was
Speaker: an object that you know you can use and enjoy it doesn't just stay on a on a wall or not that obviously I love paintings too and I love all other forms but it's something that is so tactile and you can use and enjoy it and that yeah it was that that's that's something that really excited me about it and and one thing led to another
Speaker: So your business, Oliver Newton Antiques, how would you describe that to a stranger?
Speaker: How do you think about its niche and its identity?
Speaker: Well, I think, you know, my general speciality is from, say, late 17th to 19th century, mostly English silver.
Speaker: But what I really I try and find things that are slightly unusual.
Speaker: You know, I'm very much design led in terms of what I look for.
Speaker: I look at the object first, what it looks like.
Speaker: And that's really interesting.
Speaker: what's important to me.
Speaker: So I think I try and buy things that are slightly different, slightly unusual.
Speaker: And I would like to think not that there are plenty of wonderful things to buy at Shrub Store, but I'd like to think these are sort of things that there's very few other places you can buy them.
Speaker: And, you know, I really do think, you know, that's a niche I'm trying to carve out for myself.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, and certainly we've bought unusual things from you that you found and we didn't and vice versa, I should say.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: It goes both ways.
Speaker: So what would you say has been the most unexpected challenge of starting your own silver business?
Speaker: I think the biggest challenge, and it wasn't unexpected to an extent, is financially, you know, obviously to build a silver business and to build and to become a sort of competitor in a market, albeit a relatively small market, but it's still a strong market.
Speaker: To be a competitor in it, you know, you have to build your own stock.
Speaker: So that was difficult because you have to, as your business grows, you have to reinvest the money into buying more pieces, which wasn't easy, but it pays off in the end because, you know, people, I think, take notice of that.
Speaker: And if you're buying lovely things, it certainly makes difference.
Speaker: And I think also the other challenge was getting customers, you know, when you start a business without really much
Speaker: Obviously, I worked for a great dealer and so, you know, very close with them.
Speaker: But, you know, it's important, you know, to find your own customers.
Speaker: And it was very difficult when you didn't have a sort of, say, a family background in the industry or any sort of
Speaker: uh clout should i say um so that takes time as well and i i actually that was probably even more so the most difficult part because i didn't anticipate how much time it would take you know to start actually getting people to buy from you and where do you go about looking for for new things to buy
Speaker: Well, you know, as I said, I come to New York and, you know, I buy from you guys.
Speaker: I buy from dealers auctions as well.
Speaker: And as the business has grown, you start and things that you've sold several years ago.
Speaker: Now I've been doing it.
Speaker: I think we're sort of on the seventh year now.
Speaker: customers will say, okay, well, I bought this a few years ago.
Speaker: I like what you've got in stock.
Speaker: Would you trade this back or would you buy?
Speaker: And I'm happy to do that.
Speaker: So often you get pieces that way as well.
Speaker: But as you'll attest to, there's such a finite amount of really good objects.
Speaker: And I'm not talking about, it doesn't have to be expensive, but just really fine pieces that you have to look everywhere, be it auction houses in the trade,
Speaker: and also private pieces that may come to you or through customers that you already have.
Speaker: So take this shaving bowl, our Anthony and Helm 1713 shaving bowl, our curious object.
Speaker: Talk me through the process of how you acquire it, how you investigate it, what kind of research are you doing on it?
Speaker: Then how do you promote it?
Speaker: How do you make it attractive and interesting to your customer base and
Speaker: And finally, I suppose this hasn't happened yet, but how will you ultimately close the sale?
Speaker: Just give me the life cycle of this piece as it goes through your shop.
Speaker: Okay, so this piece was actually in a private collection, but I actually acquired it from a dealer who had purchased it.
Speaker: very recently before I purchased it from a private collection.
Speaker: I saw it and it's just something I thought was absolutely magnificent.
Speaker: As I said, I'm a very visual buyer and I just thought the design and without plugging me, you can see the full images and details on my website to get an understanding of what it is.
Speaker: But it's just a very contemporary piece.
Speaker: And so I immediately was attracted to it.
Speaker: I acquired it and I could see the quality.
Speaker: um and then we found the coat of arms but what was more interesting than the um than just a coat of arms was i didn't realize or appreciate when i bought it that it that domestic shaving bowls when i say domestic you had traveling uh shaving sets that you know people would have taken if they
Speaker: traveled around or went on campaign or whatever.
Speaker: There are a few examples of those, but there's very few examples of early or late 17th and early 18th century silver domestic shaving bowls.
Speaker: Obviously, it was something that was you would have to be exceedingly wealthy to acquire because most silver was purchased to be
Speaker: you know, to show, it's a show of wealth, a show of what you had and a shaving ball would have been something that you wouldn't have shared with your guests.
Speaker: You know, it's a private object that would have been in your in your bathroom or, you know, wherever you were shaving in your inner sanctum of your home.
Speaker: So to acquire something like that in silver.
Speaker: especially by Anthony Nelman.
Speaker: I know we'll go on to Anthony Nelman, but he was a silversmith favoured by Queen Anne.
Speaker: So, you know, one of the greatest silversmiths, or arguably one of the greatest silversmiths of the day, was a really special thing.
Speaker: So there are very few examples.
Speaker: So it's a really rare object.
Speaker: And that was of great interest to me.
Speaker: And then obviously, you know, in terms of how do I market it,
Speaker: I think the important thing with objects and a lot of people will think I'm crazy, but, you know, just because something was made in 1713 for a particular purpose does not mean that in 2023 one has to use it for that said purpose.
Speaker: You know, this.
Speaker: or take a side that it's got this uh cut out for your essentially for your neck it's a beautiful bowl you know that would you could use it for serving you could use it for whatever you want a fruit for salad for potatoes whatever you want it's just a beautiful thing and you know funny enough i was at a customer's yesterday and he who's interested in it and he was looking at it and he said you know i've never thought about it
Speaker: for that reason he said but i can't i'm not sure if i can get away from the fact that it was a shaving bowl and i said yeah but that's what makes it interesting you know when you have friends around and it's on your table and they say well well you know what's why has it got that indentation in the in the in the border i think that's a really cool thing you know it's um but uh yeah so that's
Speaker: Well, Oliver, you're talking with someone who used to eat chocolates out of a silver chamber pot.
Speaker: So there you go.
Speaker: Shaving bowl is really amateur.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: So that's how I market it.
Speaker: You know, obviously, I market it as a shaving bowl.
Speaker: I'm not trying to deceive anyone, but its use is it's a wonderful size as a piece to be used for serving, to be used on your table, whatever you want in there.
Speaker: And I just think it's I think the shaving aspect adds a real interesting dimension to it.
Speaker: So Oliver, with that in mind, how would you describe the person who's likely to buy this piece?
Speaker: Well, I think there are probably one of two types of people.
Speaker: One person would be the traditional buyer of early 18th century English silver who might have a collection of other pieces, a lovely octagonal coffee pot, you know, nice, plain, early 18th century English pieces.
Speaker: And they might want it for, you know, just part of their collection because it's by Anthony Nelm, who was a very well-known silversmith, and it's a rare object.
Speaker: So that's one buyer.
Speaker: The more the
Speaker: sort of collector traditional collector buyer and then the other buyer is someone who really just sees the beauty solely in its in its aesthetic um not that they disregard its history but just see it as a beautiful object with a really interesting history but they'll use whether they use it on their table um i mean i even think it would look cool in a um in your sort of uh guest um
Speaker: bathroom, you know, with hand towels in it, you know, on a, by your sink, it would look amazing.
Speaker: So, yeah, so it's one or two buyers, I think you've got the traditional collector or just someone who wants a beautiful object for their home, maybe a more contemporary house is not specifically a silver collector, but just, you know, thinks it's a really wonderful object.
Speaker: So let's travel back to 1713.
Speaker: And I want to ask essentially the same question, but instead of the contemporary collector, I want to ask it about the original collector or buyer of this bull.
Speaker: How would you describe that person who originally bought this?
Speaker: Actually, do we know who that was in particular?
Speaker: I'm almost certain.
Speaker: I mean, as far as my investigation went on the coat of arms, it was made for the Stone family.
Speaker: And Andrew Stone, who was the founder of Martin's Bank, which was a well-known bank in London.
Speaker: So obviously a man of great wealth, but also a man that probably wanted to show his wealth, should I say.
Speaker: Except he wasn't showing it publicly through the use of the shaving ball in particular.
Speaker: As you mentioned, that was a private object.
Speaker: I think by proxy, if you had a silver shaving bowl, you are probably someone, unless you were, you know, of, of, uh, unless you were say George the first or, or someone Royal standing, um, you were probably someone who liked the finer things in life.
Speaker: And, uh,
Speaker: It would probably point to the fact that you enjoyed showing your wealth in other ways.
Speaker: So I don't know because I don't have any other pieces from his service, but I wouldn't be surprised if his service was also quite extravagant.
Speaker: Yeah, so describe this setting for me.
Speaker: This is perhaps kept in his bathroom where his saving takes place.
Speaker: What else is around it?
Speaker: Well, you would have had a jug of some description, probably a silver jug made by Anthony Nelm.
Speaker: They often were sold together.
Speaker: the shaving jug and basin, obviously to pour the water.
Speaker: So originally, almost certainly would have had a jug together.
Speaker: And then you could have had multiple other objects in the bath, in the toiletry collection.
Speaker: But in terms of shaving, those would be the two main things.
Speaker: The jug, I'm sure, would have been absolutely beautiful.
Speaker: And to have the jug and basin together would have been
Speaker: quite a treasure, but I'm very happy with the basin.
Speaker: Indeed.
Speaker: So we've mentioned the silversmith Anthony Nelm a number of times, a very familiar name for people in the silver trade like you and me, but for listeners who aren't specialists in early 18th century English silversmiths, what can you tell me about Anthony Nelm?
Speaker: Well, he was a really well-known silversmith.
Speaker: I mean, he's made plenty of pieces for many of the aristocratic families.
Speaker: There's pieces by him in Chatsworth.
Speaker: There's pieces by him in the Royal Collection.
Speaker: He was favoured as one of the favoured silversmiths for Queen Anne.
Speaker: So he really was...
Speaker: well regarded in his period and unusually he was of English heritage so at the time most of the great silversmiths were beginning to be Huguenots because their skills were absolutely fantastic and they had come mostly from France to London and brought their skills with them
Speaker: um but uh contrary to the wishes of the native silversmiths of course including nalm himself who was one of the signatories on the the famous petitions against uh what they called uh necessitous strangers exactly and and well but um fortunately to the english silversmiths the the huguenots were absolutely impeccable and arguably were the reason why english silver throughout the 18th century continued to increase its dominance
Speaker: throughout Europe and other places but anyway Anthony Nelm was one of the he was English by descent but continued to be a well regarded silversmith and yeah just I mean this is a very plain piece that he made it would be a fantastic quality but he also made some quite over the top pieces I think in the Royal Collection there's a pilgrim vase which is very elaborate and amongst other things
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Speaker: Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker: You mentioned the hammer marks that you can see on the underside of this piece, revealing that it was in fact raised from a single sheet of silver.
Speaker: And I think to newcomers to the silver collecting trade, that might sound like the piece is unfinished.
Speaker: But in fact, the reality is that that's a sign of excellent condition.
Speaker: and an indication that this piece has not been, say, overpolished and worn down.
Speaker: Can you just tell me a little about that feature, the existence of these sort of marks of handicraft on a piece of antique silver?
Speaker: Yeah, well, as you said, it's a, it's, well, obviously on the top, on the
Speaker: top of the dish where the eye would see, there are no marks.
Speaker: It's all beautifully flat and these marks are underneath and exactly as you said,
Speaker: They're beautifully done and it's not messy in that sense.
Speaker: They're very uniform and it's just the nature of how these objects are made.
Speaker: But exactly what you said about in terms of restoration, when you have these beautiful uniform hammer marks underneath, you know the object hasn't been tampered with.
Speaker: It's still very much in its original state.
Speaker: Often when a piece gets dented and it needs to be repaired, you might lose a bit of that
Speaker: detail underneath.
Speaker: But in this case, it all remains there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I think the more you look at these pieces, particularly these early 18th century pieces where those planishing hammer marks can be so refined, so precise, so regular, it becomes really enchanting.
Speaker: I mean, I... Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I liken them to, you know, looking at brushstrokes on a painting.
Speaker: For me, you're literally seeing the hand of the silversmith
Speaker: You know, this is you're seeing firsthand.
Speaker: Obviously, as you get later into the 18th century and into the 19th century, you know, the production of silver becomes a lot more mechanized.
Speaker: But, you know, when you see these early pieces and you see those hammer marks and you see how beautifully uniform they are, it really, really connects you to the object.
Speaker: And as I said, it's in my opinion, like looking at brushstrokes on the painting.
Speaker: So I think people often associate antiques with ornamentation, with decoration that's dense and complex and sometimes can even feel fussy.
Speaker: But as you mentioned, this bowl, like much English silver from this time period at the very beginning of the 18th century, it's extremely simple and plain and geometric.
Speaker: Does this strike you as a good object for challenging some of the aesthetic preconceptions that people might have?
Speaker: Yeah, I think it really does.
Speaker: I think that's something I try and do in terms of the pieces I buy.
Speaker: You know, when people who are not into antiques or not specifically into collecting silver and they make assumptions that, you know, antique pieces are fussy and they're not my style, you know, you're talking about a period of, say, three, four hundred years.
Speaker: And obviously you can't pigeonhole that three or four centuries to one design.
Speaker: And really there are aesthetic to fit everyone's taste, you know, certainly in English silver.
Speaker: And one thing I love about, exactly as you said, about these early 18th century pieces is they are so plain.
Speaker: And if you were to put it on a table in front of
Speaker: a group of people that had no prior knowledge about silver and maybe hid the coat of arms because that is a slight giveaway.
Speaker: But apart from that, you say, how old is this object?
Speaker: I would be surprised if a lot of people didn't say, oh, it's made in the last 10 years.
Speaker: Some people might say it's not dead.
Speaker: But I would be very surprised if anyone would say it's over 300 years old.
Speaker: And, you know, that's what I love is about sort of making people understand that there's so much in terms of what we have and what was made that can have a place in a beautifully modern environment as much as it can have a place in a beautiful antique environment.
Speaker: And going back to the point, just because it was a shaving bowl originally,
Speaker: What it was needed for 310 years ago is completely irrelevant to what you can do and use it for now.
Speaker: So, yeah, I think this does certainly push the boundaries.
Speaker: I think it's a sculptural object.
Speaker: It's a work of art.
Speaker: And the beauty is in its plainness.
Speaker: Because as you...
Speaker: No, go ahead.
Speaker: No, I was going to say, you know, as you know, in terms of making silver, you know, these early pieces, these plain pieces, you have to be so skilled as a silversmith because you don't have any casting or decoration to hide behind.
Speaker: Every angle, every surface has to be perfect.
Speaker: And that's what I love about this period as well.
Speaker: It's deeply intimidating.
Speaker: But yeah, I mean, I love your point about how this piece doesn't have to be used today as a shaving bowl.
Speaker: Some of my favorite antique silver objects are what I think of as obsolete pieces, which is to say pieces that were made for a purpose that no longer exists.
Speaker: And what's interesting to me about those is there came a time when it was no longer useful for its original purpose.
Speaker: At which point, it was just a bunch of money sitting around collecting dust.
Speaker: And so the strong incentive was to melt it down, get your money back out of it, make it into something else, update it.
Speaker: And yet, the choice was made not to do that.
Speaker: And the choice was made not just once, but generation after generation after generation, people decided, you know, even though this is technically not a useful object in the way it was originally intended,
Speaker: it still has value, whether it's sentimental value, aesthetic value, value that justifies keeping very valuable collection of money locked away in this object.
Speaker: So I get special pleasure out of objects like that.
Speaker: And in the case of the shaving bowl, as you've mentioned, there are new ways of putting it to use if you are willing to think a little creatively about it.
Speaker: yeah i mean i think you know another great example of using other things um sorry using things that for their not original purpose obviously salt cellars are one of those um objects especially large salt cellars um that often people we don't use as much salt as they may have used in the mid 18th century
Speaker: So while small salt cellars are lovely on the table, it's unlikely that people are going to have fill a big sort of cauldron or big bowl type salt cellar full of salt.
Speaker: I sold last year a beautiful set of four mid-18th century salt cellars by Edward Wakelin that were particularly large.
Speaker: And the customer who now has them uses them for ice cream.
Speaker: Oh, fantastic.
Speaker: And they look amazing because when the ice cream frosts, you know, and you get the beautiful frosting on the silver, the decoration pops out.
Speaker: I mean, they look outstanding.
Speaker: But if someone said to me, can you get me some beautiful ice cream bowls?
Speaker: You can't find them.
Speaker: But why couldn't you use these fantastic salt cellars for ice cream?
Speaker: I mean, they are perfect size.
Speaker: They look amazing.
Speaker: And, you know, it's a lot, you know, now he uses them.
Speaker: He particularly likes ice cream.
Speaker: So he uses them on a regular basis.
Speaker: Whereas if he was only using them for salt, he would probably never use them.
Speaker: I'm absolutely stealing that sales pitch, by the way.
Speaker: No, but it's true.
Speaker: I should actually get a picture of them in use.
Speaker: But that for me is really important.
Speaker: And the other thing I do, which some people like and don't like, and I put it on my Instagram, I've got Ed Cruet.
Speaker: I love eggs and I love egg cruet sets.
Speaker: I think they're fabulous.
Speaker: And for those of you who don't know, egg cruets are, you've got the silver egg cups and they're held in a holder and they tend to be sort of four egg cups or six egg cups or eight in a holder.
Speaker: And I...
Speaker: When I have a dinner party, I've got a sort of not particularly exciting acreage, but I have one at home and I use it for condiments.
Speaker: So you put mustard in one and different condiments in the other.
Speaker: And then you can just rather than having all individual pots, you put them all in one, you know, you pass it all to someone else and then it's all tidy.
Speaker: And look, that might be complete sacrilege to people listening to this.
Speaker: So I do apologize.
Speaker: I don't want to offend anyone.
Speaker: But, you know, the point I'm making is that whatever suits me is what you should do.
Speaker: Whatever suits you, however best you're going to use an object, as long as you're using it and enjoying it, it doesn't matter what you use it for.
Speaker: So bringing us back to the shaving bowl for a moment, you're asking prices in dollars somewhere around $10,000.
Speaker: Why is it not $5,000 or $25,000?
Speaker: And what would you say to someone who might be skeptical about spending that kind of money on an object like this?
Speaker: Well, I think the price obviously has to reflect somewhat, firstly, what you paid for it, and secondly, the sort of market value for an object like that.
Speaker: Interestingly, I would argue if it didn't have the shaving indentation or that sort of net where the indentation on the border where you would place your neck, it would probably be slightly more expensive just as a early 18th century bowl or basin.
Speaker: And I personally, I think the fact that the shaving ball makes it more interesting.
Speaker: Why is it not $5,000?
Speaker: Firstly, again, it's based on what I paid.
Speaker: So that's the main thing.
Speaker: But it's one of those objects you can't find anywhere else.
Speaker: It's so rare.
Speaker: It's such beautiful quality.
Speaker: It's in beautiful condition.
Speaker: It's, you know, find another one.
Speaker: And why is it not $25,000?
Speaker: It's...
Speaker: you know what it's not that it could be you know not not to give you ideas here yeah yeah exactly but it's one of those things that there it's hard to price because it's such a rare object so i've just priced it based essentially on on what i paid and what i think is is is a is the right price for this piece
Speaker: what would you say to a skeptic who might be thinking right now, listening to this and thinking, my God, $10,000 for a bowl.
Speaker: Um, why the hell should I spend that kind of money?
Speaker: Well, without, without sounding rude, I think if anyone's thinking, why should I spend $10,000 on a bowl?
Speaker: Because it does sound crazy on paper.
Speaker: Absolutely bonkers.
Speaker: Um, they're probably not going to be the person that buys it.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: It's the person that will buy it is someone that either understands it from a historical perspective or just sees it as a beautiful object.
Speaker: You know, when we focus, look at the art world in general, you know, silver really is, and I'm sure you'll agree is the sort of little cousin of the art world in the sense that, you know, for something of this importance, this rarity in this age and this condition it's in the terms of the art world in general, I don't think it's a huge amount of money.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: If you take that amount outside of this context, it's a huge amount of money.
Speaker: But when we're in relative to what we're talking about, I don't think it is.
Speaker: And it's as I said before, it's a case of you can't find another one.
Speaker: I mean, I'm sure there are other examples, but there's not currently on the market an equivalent.
Speaker: So how do you think the buyer for an object like this today might be different demographically or in terms of their preferences and interests might be different from the buyer for an object like this 20 years ago or 20 years in the future?
Speaker: Well, I think, you know, 20 years ago, you probably had many more collectors who would buy the object and
Speaker: for the maker, for the period, and you know, who might have specifically collected early 18th century plain English silver.
Speaker: I think today a lot of my customers aren't specifically silver collectors.
Speaker: They're just people that have lovely homes and want to fill their homes with
Speaker: beautiful pieces so they might buy as many paintings as much furniture and silver is just one of those things that they like to incorporate in the house things that they use and things they enjoy or sit on display but they're not specifically silver collection so i think that's definitely how it changed from 20 years ago i think today that's very much
Speaker: the buyer, not to say a collector wouldn't buy this, but I envisage this piece going to someone who just thinks it's a beautiful object, has a home that it just sits nicely in.
Speaker: And I think that industry is certainly going more in that direction, relevant to it being silver.
Speaker: It's just, someone will see that and say, oh, that's just outstanding.
Speaker: But the fact that silver is not something that would bother them, but they're not a specific silver collector.
Speaker: So I think that's how it is now more so.
Speaker: And I think it's certainly going to go more in that direction over the next 20 years.
Speaker: So speaking of the future, what does the future hold for Oliver Newton Antiques?
Speaker: Well, you know, we keep growing.
Speaker: It was just about a year ago, I got a spot in Mayfair, which is my first individual space where I have all my pieces on display.
Speaker: We're just on the corner of Maddox Street and New Bond Street.
Speaker: So I was really happy about that.
Speaker: And yeah, I'm going to continue to grow.
Speaker: Building the stock is always the first priority doing this sort of business, especially at my early stage.
Speaker: And yeah, you know, I travel a lot to the States, so I'm going to continually come there.
Speaker: I'm sorry about that, Ben.
Speaker: You'll have to see me a bit more.
Speaker: I can live with that.
Speaker: But yeah, so that's really, you know, I'm just focusing on what I do, trying to do it as well as I can and do more of it, you know.
Speaker: And I hope I'm doing as good as I can because it's a passion like you.
Speaker: It's a passion of mine when we're so lucky to be in an industry that we absolutely love online.
Speaker: And I know that sounds cliche and don't get me wrong.
Speaker: There are stressful days, stressful moments.
Speaker: But, you know, how lucky are we?
Speaker: I'm sitting in my office looking at all the pieces that I have as part of my stock.
Speaker: And it's a thrill, you know, it's just I just pinch myself really.
Speaker: And I really I don't want to sound cliche, but it's it's the truth.
Speaker: Well, thank you, Oliver.
Speaker: This has been great fun.
Speaker: I really enjoyed it.
Speaker: It's been really lovely.
Speaker: I really appreciate you asking me to come on.
Speaker: You're a great friend and I'm obviously very fond of shrub stars as well.
Speaker: And in general, it's lovely to talk about silver and sort of spread the word.
Speaker: And listeners, if you'd like to get in touch with me directly, you can do that by email at CuriousObjectsPodcast at gmail.com or find me on Instagram at Objective Interest.
Speaker: To leave a rating or a review on the podcast app that you're using to listen now, that helps new people to find the show.
Speaker: Yeah, but don't need a bad rating.
Speaker: Yeah, don't be like Oliver and diss the podcast.
Speaker: As always, you can see pictures of the shaving bowl and other relevant objects at themagazineantiques.com slash podcast.
Speaker: Today's episode was edited and produced by Sammy Delati with social media and web support from Sarah Bellotta.
Speaker: Sierra Holt is our digital media and editorial associate.
Speaker: Our music is by Trap Rabbit and I'm Ben Miller.
