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Leading with Vision: The Challenges of Balancing Creativity and Strategy with Mark Sample
36 Plays1 month ago
Introduction: In this episode of Player Engage, Greg Posner sits down with Mark Sample, the Studio Creative Director at Sumo Digital, who brings an extensive background in game development, having worked with studios like King, 2K, IOI, Ubisoft, and Sony. Mark shares insights into his journey from pixel art on the Commodore 64 to leading creative direction at Sumo Digital.
- The Role of a Studio Creative Director Mark explained his responsibilities, focusing on guiding the creative vision of games, mentoring creative directors, and staying aligned with current industry trends. His role also involves making high-level decisions about game pitches and prototypes.
- Staying Current with Industry Trends Mark emphasized the importance of staying updated on gaming trends through playing new games, regular team catch-ups, and leveraging insights from Sumo’s parent company, Tencent.
- The Evolution of Game Design Tools He discussed how tools like Unreal and Unity have revolutionized game development, making it more accessible but also reflecting on the unique challenges and rewards of early game design with limited tools.
- Balancing Risk and Innovation in Prototyping Prototyping is a critical part of game development, and Mark highlighted the challenges of turning ideas into workable prototypes. He shared the importance of knowing when to pivot or cut ideas that don’t work.
- The Importance of Listening and Decision-Making Active listening is a crucial leadership skill, according to Mark. Whether dealing with feedback or making decisions about game features, understanding when to listen and when to act is key to success in game development.
- Transitioning from Hands-On Roles to Leadership Mark talked about the challenges of moving from hands-on game design to strategic leadership. He candidly discussed missing the direct creative work and how he had to adapt to managing people and processes.
Summary Mark Sample’s insights provide a fascinating look into the world of game development from a creative leader's perspective. His journey from early game design on basic systems to leading creative teams at Sumo Digital showcases the dynamic nature of the industry. The conversation underscores the importance of continuous learning, passion, and adaptability, and highlights the critical skills needed to thrive in game development. Mark’s emphasis on listening, making tough decisions, and maintaining a balance between creativity and practicality offers valuable lessons for both aspiring and experienced game developers.
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Transcript
Introduction to Mark Sample's Career
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey everybody, Greg here. Today we have a really cool episode. We are talking with Mark Sample. He is the Studio Creative Director at Sumo Digital. He's also been a part of King and 2K and IOI and Ubisoft and Sony and so many other studios. And I'm so excited to learn about all these different roles. He's been on everything he's been doing. ah Mark, first of all, thank you so much for coming here today. Is there anything you want to say about yourself?
00:00:23
Speaker
ah Well, I think you've summed it up pretty perfectly. I mean, I don't think I can really top that, but I'm sure the listeners will hear a lot more about me and the thoughts on games as we go along. Yeah. And you do have an extensive a catalog of games you've worked on, which I'm excited to talk about. um First, i want to I want to thank Jamie Smith, who gave me the introduction to you, Mark. And you guys did trivia this weekend and you guys did pretty decent, right?
00:00:47
Speaker
Yeah, we ah Jamie and I, we go back a long way and last year we entered a games quiz. We came second and this year we won up and we went first. So we're really, really pleased about that. It was an awesome event. That's awesome. Congratulations. And again, thank you Jamie for setting this up. and And before we really dive deep into it, right?
Role and Responsibilities of a Studio Creative Director
00:01:06
Speaker
I often talk with game directors. I talk with different people in different places in the studio and now you're a studio creative director. Can you kind of break down what is the role of a studio creative director?
00:01:17
Speaker
Sure. So at Sumo Digital we didn't have creative directors and up until two or three years ago. So and created the studio creative director role and the creative directors to make sure that we were keeping up with gaming trends and made sure that we had great vision for our games. So for me as a studio creative director I work with the team of creative directors at Sumo Sheffield to ensure that we are aligned on what a great sumo game is We're keeping up with the trends, mentoring each other, sharing what's progress is going on and just making sure that being a good creative director isn't just about having a great vision. It's about being able to listen, to respond, to work with teams and be able to spread that vision and allow people to see where we want to go and how we want to do it. So for me, it's a lot of it is about coaching, listening and making sure that we ah all know what a great game is and how we're going to do it.
00:02:09
Speaker
That's awesome. It's refreshing to hear that kind of your coaching internally, your own studios as well and people, because I think often you don't look at your own teammates and realize, hey, they can use help here like and teaching them this. So when it comes to game trends, right? That's something we talk about. Like how do you stay on top of
Staying Updated with Gaming Trends
00:02:25
Speaker
all this information? Is it just playing games, is it researching, talking to others?
00:02:28
Speaker
Yeah well it's it's not just only me. I mean now obviously I'm playing games and we can only play so many games but we have a weekly catch-up where we share what we've been playing, what we see. We also have external partners within the studio who are looking at gaming trends. So Tencent also bought Sumo Digital so we have access to their data and access to what they learn about the trends.
00:02:51
Speaker
And so there's ah many ways, many forks on how we're getting information about games. And it's quite fascinating. I've been in the industry for such a long time. And honestly, it's every six to 12 months, something's changing. So you got to keep up up to date all the time.
00:03:07
Speaker
Yeah, you know, just looking at your, uh, your LinkedIn profile, right? You got your start on the Commodore 64 and here we are so many years later,
Technological Advancements in Gaming
00:03:15
Speaker
right? Talking about the PS5 pro and stuff like that. from From your perspective, was there, this is a wild question here, but like, was there a specific leap in gaming that gaming took over the years that you said this is the biggest change we've seen?
00:03:27
Speaker
oh I mean honestly I would say for me going from say like ah the Super Nintendo and then moving to the PlayStation the first one with the you know with the the what was it the the Tyrannosaurus Rex demo which the which was a showcase for that machine back then going from pixels and layers of parallax to full 3D that was just a step changer it was it was amazing and you know I could talk all day about this but it was not just the the change that you see on screen it was the tools that we were using it it was the game ideas that we could come up with it was the camera angles movie ah script writing all of that became part of games development that was emerging with the 2D platform but 3D with the PlayStation really you know that's where it all took off in my mind.
00:04:14
Speaker
One of the questions I had for a little later, but now that you're on here, is when you look back at all the systems you worked on, was there a time that was a nightmare? I just go back to stories of the PS3 when it had the, air I forgot what the name of their chip was. They had that special chip and yeah it was difficult, but was there like a generation where you were just like, oh God, what were they thinking? or Well, thankfully, I'm not a programmer. So i can I could do the, I used to be able to do the art. I can come up with ideas and I can work with teams, but you're absolutely right. I would say, you know, the the PlayStation 2 was particularly difficult for programmers and because what happened was PlayStation 1 was very easy to work with. So people could get a lot out of it very easily and the libraries were all good and everybody's great.
00:04:59
Speaker
But the following version, obviously, and they upped to the ante with what the machine could do, but they also made it so much more difficult. So balancing the pro processor and the graphics and making sure that it all aligned, that was more the programmer. So I would you know probably sit and comfort the programmer as well, as so we tried to do the great ideas. But in some ways, I ah managed to get get past that being more just of a creative rather than a programmer.
00:05:23
Speaker
It's funny you say that knowing that's the system that had the longest legs, the longest kind of timeframe of a generation was also one of the more difficult ones. Yeah, I mean, you know, and things have gotten easier as well. Talking about difficulties, what I will say as well is as game development has progressed, as you can see, the tools have got a lot much better. Unreal, Unity, tools that are out there, however you're creating 3D objects, whether it's Blender, Maya or whatever.
00:05:48
Speaker
you know, it's so much easier now to get something from paper on the screen as well. And I'm sure everybody's very thankful of that because back in the old days, you know, it was a hard slog just getting anything looking good. Yeah, right. No YouTube, no Google, no, ah no anything to check your code, see what's wrong and finding bugs. You had to all just look at it internally and kind of figure out what's going on here, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Career Journey and Growth
00:06:12
Speaker
Can you talk about, let's talk about you Mark, right? You've had, again, I'm looking at your LinkedIn. So for our listeners, you've had so many different roles kind of, you started off in design, you worked on the original driver, building the levels of driver and yeah on the PlayStation, you were a game designer, you were a league game designer. Can you kind of talk through kind of, how did you get from one step to the next? Like what drove you, what got you excited about keep moving up in the industry?
00:06:39
Speaker
Yeah, well, you know, just to wind back even further, very quickly, seeing, you know, I guess like a lot of people get into the games industry, they're probably doing something at home before they even get into the industry. They're they're practicing with something. So I was doing graphics on various machines even before I got a ah job there ah in in the industry. And that set me up for success when I saw I had a portfolio and I had something I could show which which was usable.
00:07:06
Speaker
But i'm setting myself up for success, you know, I set i started this as an artist. I mean, I worked as a pixel artist all the way up until a PlayStation era when I turned 3D. And that's probably when my skills sort of started to flatten out. And that's when ah I didn't, I've never consciously thought, what am I going to do? Which steps am I going to take? You know, I hear a lot of people who talk about their career and say, oh, I could see this and I wanted to go here. oh wanted For me, it was more case of I just had a passion and I just wanted to keep going. So I do whatever I take.
00:07:35
Speaker
it took to get there. So after the after graphics, I realized that I had a passion for you know games design. And games design was taken off there where ah you could really be a games designer. In the early, early days, programmers and artists generally wore the hat of games designer. And it was just wasn't really a role. It was just what you did as you made a game. But then in the mid-90s, you could truly become a games designer. And that's what pushed me on to move from the artist.
00:08:01
Speaker
into games design as a role and onto production, but you know, we can continue about that later. there's There's so many roles and so many variances that I've done, but always trying to, it's always about pushing your skills and never stop learning. I know it sounds corny, I know it sounds cliched, but as soon as you think you know it all, or as soon as you've sort of think you've learned it all, that's when you're starting to fade.
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah, and I love the never stop learning because I mean, as someone in gaming, right, you want to learn what else is being made, how it's made, ah you know, just again, networking internally, seeing what this person's role is, how do they do it? How do they do it? um As you kind of rise up the ranks from within the gaming, do you see yourself getting further away from like, the actual hands on? Do you find yourself missing those aspects? Do you ever go back to kind of say, Hey, I got to go back to my roots and figure this out?
00:08:51
Speaker
wow that's a great question and you know i always like to answer very honestly and that's part of my personality yes you know and this is the one of the it's a great thing about the industry that people can progress in their careers but it's also It's a difficult one because a lot of the time as you progress, it's natural for you to get further and further away from games development. And many great games developers are great because they're great at making games. And then as you get further away, your skills have to change. And that's a really hard transition for a lot of people to make where you start to realize, you know, I'm going to have to pass the baton over to other people on the team. And maybe I've got to use other skills which are completely new, which I haven't been using as much as games development. But coming back to it,
00:09:32
Speaker
Yes, I do miss making games. I do. so so like I used to sit in editors. You mentioned earlier with Driver and Rocky. That was my that was my bread. But I would be sitting in editors, tweaking numbers, tweaking positions of things all day, every day. And I'd be so happy with that. And you never know. I may get back to
Early Aspirations and First Break
00:09:52
Speaker
it one day. I'm not done yet.
00:09:54
Speaker
how did you even get the visibility of what are the roles existing gaming? I mean, you know if you were to ask me a few years ago, I would have no idea that studio creative director is a thing, right? Like yeah some of these roles are made up as time goes on because you see that, right? You have live ops that are coming out because you need that type of thing going on right now. But like, I guess maybe we could start on the early side of Mark when you were in elementary school or grade school, right? Like yeah what was your passion of what you wanted to do? And then kind of how did you figure out ah where to go?
00:10:22
Speaker
yeah this is a great one as well you know here's one before video games i was asked what did i want to what did i want to do i wanted to be a long-distance lorry driver all right i wanted to drive trucks across the country i mean it's nothing like video games at all and then just as i was uh you know 16 at korea's advice i remember saying oh i'd like to make video games and even the korea's advice i was like that's like somebody saying i want to win you know i don't know a talent competition on national tv it's like yeah right that never that's never going to happen so but i always had a passion and i always had a belief and i was also trying to make games at at home um and i knew of a games company very local to us called tine soft because obviously it's in new castle upon tine so it was called tine soft
00:11:09
Speaker
and I used to pass it every week as we went shopping for groceries and it's funny in my mind as I passed that I thought I want to work there and um'm I'm not joking I used to say I'd like to work there. Now so as I finished education that company unfortunately folded, but little did I know a new company called Flare Software had had ah you know spun out of the ashes of TimeSoft, which was the old owners. And lo and behold, my first job was actually at the place that I wanted to work at TimeSoft, but now known as as Flare Software. So I don't know if the universe or if you manifest it or whatever, but you know, um I made it. And and talking about roles,
00:11:51
Speaker
You know, I would always, I would play games and I would look at the credits. I would always look at the credits and I still do to this day. I think that credits are a great way to learn about games, even if you know nothing about the the game itself and how it was made. Looking at the credits, who who are the people that have done it? How many of these? what What's the roles that they're doing? How is it evolving? What do they call their creative people? What do they call their art and how's their departments? You can learn so much.
00:12:16
Speaker
from how a game is made just by looking at at the credits. So yeah, some people might think it's boring. I think it's super interesting that there's a lot of treasure trove of insight looking at the credits. You know, ah first of all, you'd be able to drive past the building that you told yourself you're going to work at. That is awesome. That's like setting that goal and accomplishing that goal when you get there. It's just like, holy shit, I did it. Like, here we are. Like, I love that aspect of it. I think that's fantastic.
Evolution of the Gaming Audience
00:12:42
Speaker
um I'm curious from your perspective, you know, you're in a business role now, right? Is it safe to say that you kind of transitioned from kind of the technical design side to the business side of the studio and... Yeah.
00:12:57
Speaker
Is it, you know, you you look at the market differently now, and you and I kind of talked about this in our pre-call where it's like, gaming's fundamentally changed. Once mobile came out, my mom started playing mobile games, right? And then the the term of a gamer actually changed. And, you know, you were here since Commodore, right? you You were the true gamer, right? You had Commodore, then you had Sega and Nintendo come out. You had PlayStation come out, which the audience got bigger and bigger, but like,
00:13:23
Speaker
You know, now you're with sumo sumo does a lot of digital type of stuff. Do you have to wear a different lens when you take a look at gaming now than you did in the past? Or is that just a natural thing that comes with it? I don't even know if that's a real question. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's a great question as well. I think
00:13:43
Speaker
I consciously keep up with gaming trends and I consciously so I've got a lot of experience which I use for free like my file of facts of how games are evolving but then I'm also looking at the news playing games and making sure that you know the the choices we make are going to excite players because that's what it's about but if you roll back talking about the Commodore talk about even up to the Super Nintendo points and games before casual players do do all like You had to become like an Olympic athlete of video gaming to actually get past the first level. i mean Think of the Nintendo system that you had in the States. you know and Think of all of those retro games. How hard were they? i mean I'm just thinking now to think of ghosts and goblins, ghouls and ghosts. i mean It was a brilliant game on the Mega Drive. Most people couldn't get anywhere in that game.
00:14:29
Speaker
So talking about how games have evolved, now games aren't just for a certain enthusiast. Games are for everybody. So we have to cater for what are the what's the most motivation, what's the psychology, what's the what's what what do they want to get out of it as an experience? How much time do they have? How much challenge do they have? How much is the pocket of of time? Is it five minutes? Is it six hours? Is it all day? you know So many different people play games. And we've got to think,
00:14:58
Speaker
what type of game are we making? What type of personality and what kind of challenge or experience do we give out of that game? It's so varied. I i think that's such a fun reference. I remember on the NES I had ah a Simpsons video game and I never beat the first level and I would play the game all the time. The same thing with the Ninja Turtles game. I think there was a Ninja Turtles game that was like the hardest game ever made and like we just keep playing it playing it and you didn't get past the first level and we'd just be sitting there and eventually you got those like prima guides. I don't know if you guys had that over there where you just got the guides I had to get through. It's just like, it was ah amazing that you bring that up. like I don't even remember those, but yeah, it's funny to remember that.
00:15:38
Speaker
it's funny you know because as you mentioned that what what used to happen was there would be two or three of us playing particular games and what would happen is one person would just end up giving up and where then we'd pass the pad to that person to try try and get past the particular because you know how when you try it games like Elden Ring or Dark Souls, you have this kind of curve of you're good and then you each try afterwards just gets a little worse until eventually you have to turn it off and go do something else because you're just maxed out. We were doing 20 years ago or or more, you know, passing the pad to the next person, you know, get past this level, and then the cycle would continue. So that's how we did that. Are you a fan of the industry?
Game Development Post-Launch: Trends and Challenges
00:16:17
Speaker
I mean, I'm going to say that A lot of times games might be shipped incomplete, but because of the ability to update over the air, like things get easier, right? If you realize that this one weapon is not fair, you can buff it. Like, you know, I remember back in the day, or you buy a game, the game's done, you get what you get. and Now you can get these live updates and people might complain that, oh, I got to be online to do this, but you can fix the game. Like, is that an awesome trend to see? Or is that something you think people are relying too much on?
00:16:43
Speaker
Maybe, me personally, I think that you know I came from an era where it was all about level of polish and and quality. that' you know That's what we turn up to work to do, the graphics, the game, the the level of design, the bugs were all squashed, the the controls, the feel, had to be nailed because you know you had one shot.
00:17:02
Speaker
so I think ah we should always be striving to deliver a game that's the best it can be but it's great that we can update and make alterations but it should never ever be used as a excuse to just get something out there to hit a deadline or a target and give somebody slot something sloppy and then iterate they've paid good money you know if it's a paid game so you know imagine you buy a car and they say yeah we'll ship the last door to you in a couple of months but the rest to find you can go you can drive it's fine you'll be okay you'd go no I don't want that so I think it's I think we'll have to treat the players right it's really important yeah I think studios are starting to see that with with even tools like asking for feedback talking to the community understanding what they like what they don't like I think I'm a big fan of that trend um from there but
00:17:50
Speaker
I'm usually about halfway through the podcast. I like to do a fireball around. I'll throw some questions at you and you can answer. so What did you have for breakfast?
00:17:59
Speaker
Um, it's late in your day now, right? It's like dinner time. I tell you what I had for breakfast. I had, uh, cause I'm British. I had a cup of tea, which is extremely important. And we, we have a thing over here. I don't know if you have it in the States called a mall loaf. It's like, ah it's like a fruity bread. It's like, ah it's bread made with fruit. And, uh, I had a couple of slices of that. Uh, it's, it's kind of old fashioned, but it's kind of cool. It, uh, you know, that's what I did. All right. What do you, what's your dream vacation? Ooh.
00:18:31
Speaker
Oh, that's a good one. I do, I am partial to South of France because the weather's good, the beaches are nice and French food's very very tasty. So there you go. You can't go wrong with French food. um What is the last game you played?
00:18:53
Speaker
The last game I played probably was very recently, I play a lot of Marvel Snap. I love Marvel Snap. I love, you know, Marvel Snap, and ah mobile games, sometimes the mechanics are a bit, they want a lot of money out of you and it feels forced. Marvel Snap is just the The combinations of the cards, the the dynamics, and the opponents, and there's the pacing of the game, it really is a superb little bite-sized game. So when I've got spare chance, I play Marvel Snap. That's what I've played last. i for I think last year for a full year, I was just so sucked into Marvel Snap. And then people got so good at it. I was just like, I can't keep up with people anyway. they They have these combos going. I have no idea what's going on.
00:19:44
Speaker
You know what, and another thing, calling out coming back to updates. I want to shout out to the guys who are updating that second dinner. They are constantly updating the game, but in a positive way. They look at the the the cards if they're overpowered, but not only that, in the patch notes, they will respond and give a reason why they have changed cards. So people might not like what they've done.
00:20:07
Speaker
But they will say we've done this because this is happening. And I think that's a great way that they're working with the community to let their people know the changes that they make and the reasons why and and improving as they go. Yeah, I think the whys behind things are something that's eye opening to everyone, even people in the industry, like, oh, this is why they made that change, right? I think not often enough, our best practices shared across the industry and things like that, I think are fantastic because it keeps everyone in the loop in the new and in the loop and in the know. Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:36
Speaker
ah Next question would be, what show did you last binge watch? ah I know exactly what I but binged watched. I watched, and it's quite a new one. It's called Chaos. I don't know if you've seen it. It's got Jeff Goldblum, and it's I truly recommend it. It's really new. It's it's as if the Greek mythology was taking place place in modern day. It sounds really odd, but Jeff Goldblum in it is absolutely cool. The cast is cool.
00:21:05
Speaker
It's really entertaining show. And then I can't binge wash it because it's only the first episode, but I i watched last night, The Penguin. And that is... Oh, nice. not Great things about it. That is set up to be something really, really cool. So, yeah, that's what I watched as well.
00:21:21
Speaker
All right, you're off the hot seat here. All right. um I want to dig into the role of studio director here, right? I want to get an idea of kind of what is the day to day like you mentioned coaching, but kind of what is it the day to day like and what skill set would you say you tap into most while doing that?
A Day in the Life of Mark Sample
00:21:39
Speaker
Okay, so day-to-day it's hugely varied. Obviously I'm in a lot of ah lot of meetings with the leadership to hear what's going on. So we have what's called a studio discipline directors. So there's like me, studio creative director, and we have studio technical director and art director and so on. So there's a lot of chat with this team to make sure that where as a company and for the people that were running as smoothly as possible and sharing challenges and wins and information so that there's a lot of collaboration and understanding across not just creative direction but all of the disciplines in the team and helping each other.
00:22:17
Speaker
ah So there's that. There's one-to-ones with my creative directors. So I'm making sure I'm checking in with them, listening to what they're up to. Do they need any help? Is there anything that's a burning problem? Are there any pressure on them? Is there anything that you know they they need fixing? Or they may be telling me about some of the things that have grown great. It doesn't always have to be a problem.
00:22:36
Speaker
there's looking at pictures ah internally and externally you know so this there might be game ideas that we're coming up with and how we get the pictures across and how we you know present them internally to see if it can go to green light then there's prototyping so I work with prototype teams small teams on how do we take these ideas and make something tangible And prototyping is such a difficult skill because everybody thinks that's the best part. It's the new ideas, anything's possible, but anybody who's worked in prototyping will know that. It's probably the hardest part, getting from nothing to something and not finding that fun. And then also, not every idea works out, so you've got to kill those. um But the biggest skill, these are just some of the things that I'm working working with, you know, on a day to day. But the biggest skill I would say that I've learned has nothing to do with games development. It's about listening.
00:23:27
Speaker
truly it's about listening and understanding so active listening because once you listen to what people are talking about you're in a much better position to respond or not because you don't always have to respond as well you know so listening is important I like that last aspect. Listening is important and also just digesting it, right? Usually people will be very reactive right away and be like, no, I didn't mean that. Or yes, it like, no, take the time, digest it, understand what's going on because that's active listening, right? is is Understanding what was said and I love that. um You also mentioned green lighting and and I'm curious about that, right?
Game Greenlighting Process
00:24:05
Speaker
Because we've all heard stories where
00:24:07
Speaker
Oh yeah, like one in X amount of games actually get through, right? Like how often are you looking at games that like you're you're going to kill right away? Not right away, but like. Yeah. and i ah you Well, we're trying not to kill games right away. And obviously you've got to sort of look at a pitch and and use your skills and experience to envisage. If we put some money behind this, has it got potential? Do we think it has legs? Does it fit in with the portfolio? because Sumo has many studios and it has a wide variety of of games that it's looking to put in that portfolio so you don't want all of your games like racing games or sports games or RPGs you you know and and do you want different budgets as well and different team sizes sort of to fit in um but it's a challenge right now you know um the industry's as everybody knows is challenging so placing your bets is a little bit more
00:24:59
Speaker
a bit more work than in previous. but them some games make it through and uh you know death sprint 66 is one of our latest games that's just come out and that that was a game that was green lit from an idea and made it through all the way through the process and and came through so yes lots of games do get killed that that's the nature of the beast but um i've got to call out that there are good games that come through as well so it's um but you could ask this question to anybody and ah and if they were responding truthfully they'd tell you it's it's you know it's not as easy as what people think
00:25:34
Speaker
You throw a bunch of crap against the wall, right? It depends on what sticks and what's going to be right with the right people. And that makes a lot of sense. And you know, you learn a lot through the stages of development. You know, you can have a great pitch, which is resonating well, but then you've got to sort of get it on screen. You've got to block it out. You've got to get a feel for it and see if it's got legs. And then you've got you got to have an experienced team who share that vision and know where they want to take it.
00:26:01
Speaker
and then know exactly what do you want to do with this prototype how do you want to move it forward what's going to make it great because what if you just throw everything at it usually these games just fall so it's very much pulling on the right threads in the right order to ignite what's in this game and the truth of it is sometimes you'll get the points in the development where the game just shows itself as unfortunately this is as far as it goes and then it's the tough decision of guys that's That's it. We've got to move on. I think that's the beauty of some of these indies that pop up, right? Especially when they're affordable for people, right? I don't mind spending a few bucks on an indie game to play it, even if it doesn't. It may not be a full game, right? But other people might look at it and get an idea based off of this thing. Hey, I love this mechanic or I love that. And you kind of build it off there. And this rise of the indies that are coming out, I think is fantastic for people to show off what their creative abilities are. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. And you're seeing games
00:26:57
Speaker
you know that are hitting early access who work with the community well and to have a a nugget I mean look at Baldur's Gate as well in particular I mean they really embraced the the community over the years and they took something that was great and they just took it to the next level in a genre at the time that people were thinking is this really the kind of old school game that people want but it just goes to show that yeah you know get the right people behind it ask the right questions do the right fixes you can have something really cool So I'm going to name a couple of your, your
Personal Victories in Game Development
00:27:32
Speaker
job titles. yeah Now I'm curious to hear kind of when you look back at your, your job history, what did you love the most? And then I know it's hard to probably choose one and it's all perspective, but you were a level designer, game designer, producer, lead game designers, a mentor, game director, producer.
00:27:51
Speaker
developer relations and going to the newer stuff, game director, the senior producer, studio creative director. So lots of roles out there. And I love it because you probably have so much experience and all that. But when you look back and say, I remember that year, that was so much fun, or we did something so great.
00:28:09
Speaker
yeah Yeah it's rolling back quite a bit on this one but I would say ah and people who know me will know what this answer is by the way before I even tell you because ah I'm known for it but ah years ago i was I loved boxing games still ah still and I loved the sport of boxing.
00:28:30
Speaker
So I had a boxing game idea um and I ah took it around all of the companies that I could and they said, oh, boxing's boring, you know, but we don't want to do that. This was before, you know, boxing got cool with Fight Night and stuff like that. um And I went to Rage and I tried and I said, you know, will you make a boxing game? And I was like, nah, we're not interested. And a couple of months later, they said, hey, Mark, you got that boxing game idea? I says, yeah.
00:28:54
Speaker
um ah We've got the Rocky license. Would you like to make a box game? And that's just like, you know, the Vince McMahon meme of why he just goes, oh, and he just goes absolutely mental and his mind's exploding. Well, that's what it was for for me. So, you know, it it came out. it It was a great game. It was ah it was a small team.
00:29:12
Speaker
The vision was there. it It got all essence of what I wanted to put from boxing, all essence of what I wanted to put from Rocky. that We had a fantastic team. Everybody was on board and just everything worked out brilliantly. And that there was just, ah that was like winning Olympic gold for me. There's been other victories as well, newer ones, but that's the one that, that's probably the first one where I felt like, yes, this is brilliant.
00:29:36
Speaker
And then you were acquired, maybe not because of that game, right? but but yeah yeah Yeah, we were bought by 2K Games and and they went on to do Donkey boxing and Prey and Bioshock conversions on the consoles. so yeah you know ah But there's been honesty, you could ask me and ask me tomorrow and I could tell you maybe something else. There's been so many highlights ah on this journey and I'm sure there's more to come.
00:30:03
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's such an amazing portfolio and just background and um going back to kind of your role. um You know, I think on a day to day basis, right, there's tools that we use to help keep track of things. And you know, you say you communicate with a lot of people, you work with a lot of people, meaning I'm guessing you have a lot of notes, probably be more notes than you ever once in your life. But what type of tools do you use? Like, is there a software that you like that you can't live with that do you just record stuff? Like, how do you ah do what you do?
00:30:33
Speaker
pen and paper high school you wouldn't not always but when i'm see i'm talking to you on a meeting and i want to make sure that i don't forget anything i go straight to pen and paper just a little bit of shorthand just to make sure so
00:30:54
Speaker
using Miro, we use that a lot, you know, to to keep ideas together and and fill in there. And then obviously we've got Teams and Outlook and email and and so on. But yes, I know it's maybe a bit of a surprise, but, you know, the power and also I know this is another one, but the power of actually choosing to write something down physically connects the mind. And I think that I get a stronger connection of what I'm doing, what I should be focusing on, because I take that time to write rather than to actually So I would say and in that way, it's it's old school. And if you could see my room, the amount of old notebooks that I've got through the over the years, you know, because I don't seem to throw them away either. I've just got notes and notes. I should look through them. that I might learn i may learn if tooth a thing or two if I go back through them.
00:31:42
Speaker
It's funny, I'm the same way, I have a notebooks all around me and my problem is actually going back to my notes to look at them. It's just like, oh, how often am I actually going back? at I have to get better at that, but i'm I'm trying to teach myself to use pen and paper more because it does definitely help me retain that knowledge a little better than just typing it on the keyboard does.
00:31:59
Speaker
You know what, as well, honestly, I think one of the things when I make lists on paper, the satisfaction that you get from putting ah a real strikethrough, not a strikethrough in text, a real strikethrough on the pen of, you know, some things done like, you know, updated pitch document or, you know, attended so-and-so meeting ah or and strikethrough. So you can see progress. it's ah it's a great It's a great feeling as well for motivation.
00:32:25
Speaker
a few A few weeks ago, right you were on LinkedIn saying you're ready to start doing some podcasts, and here we are doing a podcast. But did something change where you decided, hey, I want to start sharing my stories or my experiences? Was it kind of like a light bulb moment?
Sharing Wisdom Through Podcasts
00:32:40
Speaker
I would say so. ah yeah i think ah I'd always had it in the back of my mind. I've been doing this a long while. I usually just assume everybody you know knows about games and how to make it. So I just thought, why would anybody really want to listen to what I've got to say? But then I just woke up and thought, you know what? I'm just going to put it out there.
00:32:58
Speaker
I'd like to help people. I'd like to share some thoughts. I'd like to share experiences ah and make use of what I've learned. And if I can steer some people away from some of the mistakes I've made or help people get along on their career or accelerate, then that's a great feeling. It makes me feel good and hopefully it helps others along the way. So it was a light bulb moment and I just thought, I'm going to get out there. I'm going to let people know I'm available and let's see what happens. And there you are, Greg. You knocked on the door and there the rest is history.
00:33:26
Speaker
Here we are. So on that, can we put you on the spot? And if you can't, that's fine. But what is the mistake that you made? it And how did you kind of turn that mistake into a learning experience and build upon it? Wow.
00:33:38
Speaker
um you know I think one mistake that comes to mind was I was unhappy ah at a particular job. I won't give the the the companies and whatnot, but I was very unhappy and I thought the grass was greener. So um I just thought I'd had enough. And I told my current boss that I was I was leaving and they tried to persuade me to to stay, you know, a salary increase or whatever. But my mind was made up. I'm going to this new place because I've had enough because blah blah it's going to be better. there
00:34:11
Speaker
I didn't really do, I didn't check it out. I'd heard rumblings at this place, maybe wasn't the best, but I thought people just say that. It it it can't be that bad, you know, ah nothing's that bad. They're just saying that because of anyway, and I left and I went to this place and um It was a complete mismatch. I lasted i can hold my hands up i lasted six months. it was it was awful It was awful for me. It it wasn't so much that the the place was bad. It worked for some people. It just did not work for me.
00:34:45
Speaker
And I probably didn't work for for them as well. So ah I left on good terms, but I only lasted six months and I learned a lot about it's not just the games. It's not just the company. I think what's really important is that you've got to work with people who get you. but You've got to work with the culture. You've got to find a place where you fit because if if it if it doesn't match your values and what you that you know and what matches you as a person, I think you're going to struggle. And I made a big mistake then. ah And I ah think about that.
00:35:13
Speaker
with any career decision I make now and that was a long time ago. Yeah. and That's a great story to share. I mean, I often hear stories of people who are going to do anything to try and work for, and this was years ago, but Facebook or Google or Amazon, they're like, I just want to work there. I'm just like, but why? Like, what what are you doing that you want to go there? And then yeah, they just want the name on their resume. But like, do you want to be miserable? I'm not saying they're bad jobs, but do you want to be miserable at a place you don't want to go just to have your name on a resume? And we talked about the same in gaming is that people just want to be in gaming and they start doing jobs that they may not love.
00:35:46
Speaker
so they can get into the industry. But if you're not following your passion, if you're not doing what you love, like, it's going to be work. Whereas if you're doing what you love, you just come in and you're like, it's still work, but it feels a lot better. Like, I respect you sharing that story that, hey, this is maybe a big name company to make great games. I want to go there. But even though you see all the warning signs, right, they're all there. um But you just have to experience it. And at least you can learn from them and say, all right, I got to look at this differently next time.
00:36:12
Speaker
I mean, it was it it was exceptionally painful at the at the time. I mean, it was really hard. The the learning curve, the the change in culture was like a a bat in the face. It it was it was immense. um And at the time, like like a lot of challenges in life, at the time, the mountain is huge, but now I can look back and I use that. And I would say this to any of the listeners, whatever you you're doing, you know,
00:36:38
Speaker
use that time to reflect later on and it's actually a gift if you if you choose to learn from it and like I say i have I am very particular with anything that I choose to do in my career and I have been for the last 15 years or or more now because of those kind of outcomes and decisions and I would recommend anybody to always you know, look before you leap. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't take chances or have a go, but just, ah you know, don't do anything blind. You could end up in somewhere much more difficult. Right. So you got to, you got to go through it. It's a learning experience. Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:15
Speaker
um When you take a look at yourself a day and if you were going to go back to university, what would you look and think about studying this time around compared if you went to university last time, but but knowing knowing what you know now.
Curiosity and Diverse Learning in Game Design
00:37:31
Speaker
Wow, that's a tough question. You know, um now here's the thing. You see, for me, ah all I ever did from the age of five was, I think that's when I first started of playing video games. I just played video games all through. I couldn't actually wait. Truthfully, I could not wait to get out of school. and So I left school and I was in the games industry at the age of 17. I was like out of school and I'm straight into the industry and learning on the on the job, on the get-go and have been ever since.
00:38:00
Speaker
um but talking about education and I've worked at universities and I've helped give career guidance, you know, games design courses are great but ah what I would say is, games design courses are great but I think that you don't just need games design to be a great games designer, I think that you need to be a curious and I think most of the best games designers are just curious about life and the world itself whether it's cuisine or architecture or great writers art or why does something work how does something not so you know for me it's ah it's about always being curious and always learning and always looking for new things and how can I use that as inspiration for for what I'm going to do but if you want to focus say on on education
00:38:43
Speaker
go do something that gives you passion. But what I would say is is that I don't ah don't always necessarily think that you have to go and do a games design course to be a great games designer. Now that might be controversial. I think you could be doing all sorts of different courses. I've i've seen people who have you know, um done all sorts of degrees and then become fantastic game designers. They've got nothing to do with games design, but they've got something in the way that they look at problems and challenges and and see fun and innovation and can turn that into a great game. So, you know, and I think there's a very varied ways to become educated and in in the games. The only thing I'd say is now, compared to when I joined, it's much more difficult to convince
00:39:27
Speaker
you know the hiring teams that you're good enough if you haven't got a degree but if you if you ever speak to me I'm always looking for the person I'm looking for the skills and the passion first that's where it really lies for me personally. Yeah, I've often heard others say that they're more curious in the projects you've done at home or created on your own rather than what you've done at a studio. Because at a studio, you're kind of you're in your job doing it, but what do you do in your passion, your free time? What are you building? How are you building it? How do you approach it? I think it's a different lens to be able to look at people and what are they doing outside of what their job is and their possibilities.
00:40:00
Speaker
You know, going back to talking about education, when I used to lecture in university, I still can distinctly remember there would be a class of 30 people. And out of that, there would be sometimes three to five people who, when I spoke to them, they I'd ask them what they're doing. And what are you doing? Oh, I'm making them mods in various first-person shooters or Minecraft or doing things.
00:40:25
Speaker
Essentially, they were doing they're doing what I was doing 20 years ago, the same thing. you know I told you where I started. and and This is in my mind. The the the the tools, the the games and everything changes. But if you think of everybody who becomes good at what they do, they usually find that they're doing something.
00:40:40
Speaker
at home themselves as their hobby preparing and they were actually at at these design courses just literally to get the rubber stamp to say that they'd passed a university degree in game design but they'd already passed I could see they'd already passed it do you know what I mean so they hadn't got the formal rubber stamp but they were they were just ready to go as soon as they could get out of university they were they were primed and I was talking to somebody at the games quiz There was one person who passed the course and I never saw this person in any lesson. They did not turn up. They passed with a 2-1 or whatever grade and I'm not making this up. I never ever saw them and they handed in their paperwork and got fantastic marks and they never turned up. That is the truth.
00:41:25
Speaker
You know, sometimes you just need that piece of paper, right? And people can go about learning and understanding in their own free time. But if I could go past my course, get my degree, then you're pretty much good to go. I mean, that's how I think we look at college these days is like, do you have the degree? All right, let's go. So don't get me wrong. I'm not not good at education at all. I just I want people to know.
00:41:43
Speaker
that you know it's it's not the only route and coming back to you know skills you know like Shiguro Miyamoto when he is interviewing or when he used to be interviewing for roles at Nintendo he wouldn't ask the you know or what game are you playing and what level and how much game or score do you have and so on.
00:42:02
Speaker
you would ask what personal interests do you have outside of playing games? I like golf, I like gardening, I like, what that's what he's looking for. What makes you tick? Not just the games that you play, but what what about you as a person? what where do you and Where do you get inspiration? Because it's everywhere, and that's what you're looking for.
00:42:18
Speaker
yeah And to your point, you said you're not knocking education. I don't think you are. I just think education is changing, right? I mean, it's not sitting in books anymore, right? It's watching YouTube videos. It's listening to a podcast about a tutorial on how to do something, right? You can learn by walking down the street and seeing how people are interacting with each other. And like, learning is everywhere. It's subjective on how you want to take that in and what you want to do with it.
00:42:42
Speaker
but what couldn't agree more and it's it's beautiful to hear and you know the other thing as well i would say as well as i've been in the industry for ages it's it's it's a really important for creatives to um hold on to sort of that playfulness and that goofiness ah you know um that's where a lot of the fun comes so when things become too serious and too so like oh there's so much pressure to become creative or the best or it's almost impossible to find that looseness where where there there has to be a certain amount of focus, but a bit of looseness and goofiness. And when you combine those two, that's when magic happens as well. So, you know, whenever I see corporations or games or cultures where it just becomes what, no, don't get me wrong. If it goes the other way and if it's too goofy, nothing probably gets done at all. But there's this balance as well. And that's, that's where the magic lies.
00:43:33
Speaker
It's, ah you know, ah my son, i let I let him record a video that I put on LinkedIn the other day because he wanted to be a podcaster too. He's six years old and he plays a goat simulator. And that's like the perfect mix of like goofiness and fun, but it's also a great game. Like it's so fun to see him playing that. and And I wanted to ask you, right? Like you said you were gaming when you were five years old too, and me and my son, we fight off and about it because he that's all he ever wants to do.
00:43:59
Speaker
Um, but what game were you playing that you first remember thinking to yourself, this is my future. We, um, I don't know if it was my, I'm going back now. You see, um,
00:44:18
Speaker
I remember playing and obviously playing Pac-Man, Space Invaders, and then one game that really sort of made me think this is so cool.
Influence of Arcade Games in Mark's Youth
00:44:28
Speaker
Now this is going back, so hopefully it resonates with some of the older viewers, but it was a a tank game in vector graphics called Battle Zone, all right? And you played as tanks. And and you would the arcade machine had goggles like this, which you look to, so it made and you had like ah controls like this for the tracks that would make you feel it.
00:44:47
Speaker
and then I was too small so I had to look from underneath the goggles at the screen but I remember and I've got a still I love but boxing games and I've got this love of tank games too love tank games for some reason and then this this was like this is so cool and then the imagination was running wild so it was it came not just from one game it came from going to the arcades Like you see in 80s movies, you know kids, or even like Stranger Things, where the kids are, they're going to arcades, playing arcades. It was like a candy shop for me. It was like, whoa, what's this next game? It's just like mind exploding with like possibilities. And that was just, it was just beautiful. ah It's a shame that arcades aren't as popular as they used to be, but honesty is brilliant.
00:45:31
Speaker
I think I love barcades now that I'm older and I'm able to drink. I love how you reference the eighties and then mentioned stranger things in case I didn't know what the eighties were like, so I'm honored that you thought that I love the arcade. I remember going to the mall. I'd go with like my whole handful of quarters.
00:45:46
Speaker
I'd go to the arcade at the mall that they had there, but I thought i hope arcades make a comeback. I mean, I know they tried them with a VR for a while, but that's too much of a investment. You got to wear everything, but arcade should make a comeback. We need that type of environment. For me as a kid, there were all this kind of dark and there was so many CRT screens with all the lights and the and the the sound chips and the they know all different and all the sound just merged into one. And and for the parents, it was probably like hell on earth.
00:46:16
Speaker
But for fuck kids at that time, it was just, like you know, it it was just everything. It was intoxicating. Well, Mark, I probably have a hundred more questions for you, but I will give you the rest of your evening back because I could see it's very dark out. that's okay I appreciate this whole conversation, man. I think you're you've been in gaming since a long time, right? And you've seen everything from Commodore to PlayStation to NES to today working on on mobile and console-based stuff. and i think
00:46:48
Speaker
sharing stories and what you're going to be doing, hopefully is fantastic. Because I think more people need to hear about kind of the history of gaming and how it was built and going through what you went through. And and when I say that, I mean the different roles, right? You, you, you were almost like you worked your way up. ah yeah And that's fantastic. um Thank you so much for sharing these stories. I think it's super cool. And I think you're inspirational to anyone that that's listening. And before we do end, is there anything else you want to talk about or share or just shoot the shit?
00:47:15
Speaker
You know what, i'm i'm just I'm just so pleased that we had this conversation. And like you say, ah we could go on all night. You could probably just keep asking questions if we could probably just have a chat. But I've just truly enjoyed having this little chat. It's been really entertaining and enjoyable and it's nice to it's nice to share. And I just hope that people who listen get something out of it. So I appreciate the asking me to come on the show. Thank you. Again, thank you so much for coming in today. And I hope you have a great rest of your evening and ah yeah.
00:47:43
Speaker
thank you awesome thanks a lot yes