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00:00:01
Why Youth Sports Keep Failing Kids
30 Plays1 day ago
In this episode, Eric talks with Coach Rory O’Neill about a question that extends far beyond youth soccer: What happens when a system rewards customer satisfaction more than genuine development?
Drawing on experience coaching from recreational leagues to MLS NEXT, Rory argues that many of the problems parents blame on coaches or individual clubs are actually consequences of a deeper structural issue. In the United States, youth soccer exists inside a closed ecosystem where incentives often prioritize retaining paying families over producing elite players.
The conversation explores why American youth sports have become increasingly expensive, why parents and players constantly feel pressure to change clubs, why burnout may be misunderstood, and why many of the world’s best soccer nations approach development in fundamentally different ways.
Eric and Rory also discuss promotion and relegation, college soccer, pay-to-play models, training compensation, player movement, Japanese soccer culture, and the surprising ways incentives shape everything from coaching decisions to parental expectations.
Rather than asking why the United States hasn’t won a men’s World Cup, Rory asks a different question: What if the system is producing exactly the results it was designed to produce?
At its core, this is a conversation about incentives. About development versus marketing. And about how the structures we build quietly shape the people they produce.
Questions Answered
- Why is youth soccer so expensive in the United States?
- What does “pay to play” actually mean?
- Why doesn’t the United States use promotion and relegation?
- How does MLS influence youth player development?
- Why do so many families switch clubs every year?
- Why do youth coaches become so protective of players?
- Is burnout really caused by early specialization?
- Why do some children seem unable to get enough soccer?
- How do Japan and Argentina develop elite players differently?
- Is college soccer a realistic path to professional soccer?
- Why are American clubs dependent on parent tuition?
- What incentives actually produce world class players?
Episode Links
- Coach Rory Soccer on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CoachRorySoccer
- Rory’s previous appearance: https://unfoldingthought.com/rory-oneill-inside-the-matrix-of-american-youth-soccer/
- The discussion with Dr Ming Ming Chiu: https://unfoldingthought.com/dr-ming-ming-chiu-why-fake-news-works-so-well/
For more episodes: https://unfoldingthought.com
Questions or guest ideas: eric@inboundandagile.com
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Transcript
00:00:03
Speaker
Dr. Coach Rory O'Neill, thank you for joining me again. This is your second time being on the podcast. I really appreciate you being here.
00:00:13
Speaker
Not everyone listening to this will be familiar with you though. So would you mind giving me a little bit of your background? Yeah, no, thanks for having me again. was ah was a good conversation last time, so I'm i'm looking forward to it.
00:00:28
Speaker
Most people, I suppose, would know me from my YouTube channel, Coach Rory Soccer. I got into coaching 14, 15 years ago and sort of um developed that web page, that that YouTube channel,
00:00:43
Speaker
Just really to give my players some basic fundamentals and it kind of turned into a a whole thing where I get i get emails from all all across the world now. But, um you know, I think at at at its basic level, I'm just a ah parent as well who have seen...
00:01:02
Speaker
seeing players go through the system um and seeing what that does and and sort of what that is. And I know that's kind of what we're going to be talking about. But um yeah, I i started, like I said, 14, 15 years ago and you know and and here I am now. But um it's it's been quite a journey through that process. So looking forward to talking about it.
00:01:24
Speaker
When you started coaching, Were you coaching, you know, your children in multiple sports? And then eventually I know you've moved up to fairly high level club youth soccer, but where did you start? And then I guess, where are you at now in terms of your coaching?
00:01:43
Speaker
Yeah, i started coaching my oldest son when he was four, I think. And, you know, they it could barely run. And through that whole process, um I did my licenses, both um both my U.S. licenses and my UEFA licenses, I made a ton of mistakes along the way. And now I'm, yeah, ah you know we were we were chatting a little bit before. him This season or next season, I'm going to be coaching in in MLS Next. So I've gone from probably the the lowest rec levels. um I've coached pretty much every age group. um I've coached boys and girls from time to time. So I've i've had quite quite a lot of experience. But yeah, i just I started as a parent coach in a rec league. and And now I'm coaching pretty much in the highest youth league in the country.
00:02:30
Speaker
Can you tell me broadly what you think of the youth soccer system in the United States or how you would describe it so that we can start to get into some of the strengths and weaknesses?
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I think for for the listeners and people who um don't have a lot of experience, it it really is the compare and contrast of what the youth system is here in this country versus what it is in the vast majority of the other countries in the world.
00:03:01
Speaker
Because, you know, if you don't have that understanding or that experience, you kind of look at it um in a different sort of prism. You know you're you're kind of looking at it like this this is how sports work because not just soccer. I mean, a lot of the other sports are kind of going into this model, which a lot of people, um, would term pay to play, uh, which, you know, is a little bit, um, that's a hot button topic. When you say pay to play, a lot of, you know, a lot of things come with that. And a lot of people have are quick to have opinions on it. Um, and pay to play exists everywhere. It exists in Argentina. It exists in Scotland.
00:03:43
Speaker
um those are Those are two countries that I have a lot of experience with, but um it exists in a very different way. And so what we have here um is the result of the fact that soccer operates in a professional way quite different than it does in other countries. And that has, and you know and people people don't really understand, that has a huge trickle-down effect.
00:04:10
Speaker
to youth sports. um and And that can be hard for people to wrap their minds around. um But the fact that we operate and MLS the way we do means that the youth clubs have to operate in a certain way. And that just affects everything.
00:04:28
Speaker
You said, you're reminding me now that when we talked last time, you described, I think, MLS as being a closed system. So there's no promotion and relegation or something of that nature. And then how that really shows up in the youth club soccer system. So that's what you're referring to. At least that's one aspect.
00:04:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So the fact that, and and and that's another hot button topic, and i I've really tried to start not using the term promotion relegation because people, ah not not, I mean, we can talk about, we can say it in this podcast. It's just, it's not like, you know, ah a taboo term. It's just when you say that,
00:05:12
Speaker
so many people will automatically jump to something, um you know, that that that that that takes the argument and the conversation. And not that you would, but but once people hear that term, their brain just like, some of them just go crazy.
00:05:26
Speaker
I mean, you see that on on X all the time. um But what i've what I've really liked or or sort of shifted to is open ecosystem or merit-based system. um Because, you know, some of the things that I don't think people really understand is we live in this country that in many aspects is the freest in the world and and has the you know the the most open financial system and and and opportunity for gains. And, you know, people are are thriving to come to this country because of those opportunities in many ways.
00:05:54
Speaker
But from a sports perspective, especially from a soccer perspective, but but you could pretty much say all of our professional sports, we're we're pretty much living in North Korea. And the only reason I say that is because if, again, you you know, I'm not saying that in a vacuum, you have to compare to the other countries.
00:06:10
Speaker
So in in in almost every other country in the world, the opportunity for advancement in sports, specifically soccer, exists. It doesn't exist here. like Like if I have a club and that club has, you know, a first team um and most clubs, you know, around here do have some element of amateur first team. Some of them don't. But if you have a first team and you're doing things that are good, meaning you are practicing well and coaching well and winning games, if you're in another country in general, that brings about certain opportunities.
00:06:45
Speaker
That trickles down to how you operate as a club. So you're now operating as a club to develop players for your first team or develop players to sell to other clubs or like you're you're entitled you're the whole reason for you to operate is to be good at soccer.
00:07:05
Speaker
that that And and and you know the the subset of that is having good players right and developing good players. Here, that doesn't exist. So you could be the most altruistic club in the country and you're operating out of you know Kansas City and you know you're you know you're developing all these great players and your teams are doing really well.
00:07:27
Speaker
That doesn't do anything for you um because Sporting KC is right there. You're never going to compete with them. You're never going to get to that level. It's impossible. um So, you know, and and quite frankly, any player that you were to develop is going to move on anyway. So your entitle you know your your incentive is really just to keep your customer base happy, which is in general your parents.
00:07:53
Speaker
So how do you do that? Well, you know you you give them what they're looking for or you you create some sort of um myth about you know how elite your program is or you're in this particular league or...
00:08:09
Speaker
you know yeah There's really no way of proving that you're doing the right thing or you're developing players. You're just kind of saying it. And so it becomes this game of club versus club who can attract more players, who can say that they're better, but there's no way of really proving it um And so that that, again, just goes into, you know, there's no incentive to develop players. And so you have players who drop out at certain ages because their parents can't afford it.
00:08:40
Speaker
um You have players who just, you know, are overlooked because maybe they're physically behind. You know, the the incentives are pushed towards winning. you know You know, you have to now win games because if you're not winning games, you're not doing the right thing. um You know, according to parents, potentially, it it it just becomes everything becomes shifted. And so in in other countries, that's really not the case. and and And I'll really only speak about my experience in in Scotland and Argentina because i I feel like I can do that.
00:09:09
Speaker
In Argentina, um and and i was I was privy to have my kids actually in Belgrano's academy, which is, Belgrano is one ah it's a first team top division club in Argentina, in Cordoba, Argentina. um It's just such a different experience looking at what the coaches are doing, what the parents are doing. They're They're just not looking at this the same way that parents here are. And and that might be a cultural thing as well.
00:09:38
Speaker
ah But again, so much of this is dictated by how the professional the top professional league operates and the trickle-down effect that that that incurs.
00:09:49
Speaker
Okay. In the example of Sporting KC, so... I perhaps am a member of a club. My child plays in club that in Kansas city and, or in that area. And we're very successful in whatever league we're in.
00:10:08
Speaker
We're winning a lot and we're feeling good. And you're saying, okay, but whatever league sporting KC is in, you merit is not going to get you into that league.
00:10:21
Speaker
It's going to be something like my club making an agreement with whatever league they're in to to be allowed in. And it sounds to me like because of the, I guess, open ecosystem or closed to ecosystem sort of thing, like what I understand of English Premier League or something of that nature is that The bigger ecosystem in some of these other countries, if not most, given the way that you're describing it, is that if if my child is on that Kansas City team that is winning a lot, then we have the opportunity to move into another league or another level where the competition may be at a higher level
00:11:06
Speaker
And then we might eventually get to the place where we could compete against, you know a higher level team. That's sort of what you're describing. Yeah. And, you know, we always look at the professional, you know, yeah the Eagles Premier League is a very easy example because, you know, there's promotion relegation. I mean, Tottenham just almost got relegated and they're one of the biggest clubs in the world. Like that would never happen here.
00:11:29
Speaker
Like the Dallas Cowboys are never not going to be in the NFL, you know. um And so your example from Kansas City um is is is totally spot on. What's worse is that let's say that that club did develop a fantastic player who Sporting KC were interested in having in their academy, they would get nothing for that that kid to move. They would get absolutely nothing. No no money. no ah The only only thing they would get is they would get to put on Instagram, look at one of our former players is now on Sporting KC, which they probably would.
00:12:00
Speaker
But when you were talking, it it this happens actually on a much smaller level all the time. You'll have a smaller club And let's say they've got a really good group of U9 players.
00:12:12
Speaker
And, you know, they go to school together and they're friends and and they have a really good experience and they start playing really well. Well, the top two or three kids of that team, eventually, if if they're good enough, start start looking around and saying, hey, you know, we're not playing and MLS next or we're not playing ECNL. We're not playing in, you know, said league. Like we are going to have to, you know, at 12, 13 years old, whatever it is, take our player and go somewhere else.
00:12:37
Speaker
Well, if they actually had a merit-based system in the youth, like you know like if there was a system set up where that small club team could, if they're they're winning this league and that league and that league, now they're in MLS next.
00:12:50
Speaker
And they wouldn't necessarily, if they liked the coach and they liked the players, have to go somewhere. Because I said, you know what? This team is pretty good. And guess what? We're going up the ranks. And why would I take my my my son to this club when the team that we're at is really good and looks like we're moving up?
00:13:03
Speaker
But that just doesn't exist. So, you know, it it's it it it again pits club against club where they have to, you know jockey for leagues. And there's no there's no merit saying that your your club is an ECNL. Well, why? Because you paid some fee or, you know, shook hands with somebody or somebody liked you or your club. Like there's no there's no meritocracy. So, again, that that all plays into the development of players.
00:13:32
Speaker
like Like we're not, you know, if there's no if there's no merit based system, what what is what is the incentive for a coach to develop a player? and and And I'm not saying the coaches don't want to develop players. We definitely do. I think most of the coaches in the country are have have a great heart and really trying.
00:13:47
Speaker
But when you look at, you know, what would be the incentive, it's not there for clubs, unfortunately. Do you think that this creates sort of a free agent mentality between, you know, with with the parents, but then also potentially for the player that if I'm one of those high, you know, top two or three players every year, when it comes around to tryouts, my family, you know, or I am potentially thinking, well, where am I going to get the best offer?
00:14:21
Speaker
And less so that there's a sense that I have hitched my wagon to the star of, you know, a certain club. And if this club or if this broader team succeeds together, you know, I'm a part of that thing and we will move up. Instead, it's more like, what what can I get out of this?
00:14:42
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, it's it's every year. It's every tryout cycle. um You know, you get fear of missing out from parents. They think that, you know, um and and everybody's situation is is different.
00:14:55
Speaker
But my experience in general, is that the parents oftentimes have a much more inflated view of where their particular player is than than maybe they are. ah And and you know I've seen parents do things like take their kids two hour a club two hours from them, where they're where they're they're they're driving two hours there and back to practice, and the player, you know from my perspective, really really isn't at that level. I mean, if if your son is at of their daughter's at a particular level, And you need to drive two hours to to play at the Philadelphia Union. Okay. I understand that. That that makes sense. But that's that's less than 1%. Like, you know, I have a very good team.
00:15:39
Speaker
I don't know how many of my players could play on the Philadelphia Union. Probably none. and And we're playing, we have to play them. Like we're, it's just, you know, if if you don't have that experience, you just don't know. and And it goes, you know, we always talk about the highest levels that the top two, three kids on every team. it's It's that way for all of them. Like I'll have kids who maybe are on the lower end of my team.
00:16:01
Speaker
You know, they're they have to decide whether they're going to go to another club and be on that on that play on that team's first team and and be a starter or be ah a big player for them. or Or I'll have players that are on my second or third team who would be on first team, you know, clubs otherwise, you know, and and it's not always the best decision for them to go to that club. But to your to your point, it it creates this free agency scenario.
00:16:27
Speaker
And the other problem is with the system set up the way it is, you have really no idea unless you you have some sort of soccer background, which most parents don't, if you're going into a good situation or you're not.
00:16:39
Speaker
Like there's no there's no way of really determining that. Now, if we had if we if we had a merit-based system, there would at least be some objective measure. Like, oh, this team has, you know, gone from the fourth division to now they're in the second division. Well, there's a reason for that. Now, might be a horrible coach, but you least have some objective way of figuring that out here. it is. It's totally the Wild West. Like you, all you can do is is go to a training session and see how maybe a coach were to, you know, interact with with players. And you really don't know.
00:17:11
Speaker
um And and that that creates, again, a lot of confusion, a lot of chaos. and And to what you're saying, parents and players are kind of always looking for the next best thing. um And it's just not always there.
00:17:25
Speaker
Where has this come from? Is this a historical thing, you know, that in the United States, youth soccer has just developed over time differently and or is it a result of clubs or something else being for profit versus guided by the government or nonprofit in other countries?
00:17:48
Speaker
I think this has gotten dramatically worse, especially since COVID. um And the way that this, you know, if I if i were to go back to kind of when I started coaching, which would be around 2010, 2011, we had a system that, in my opinion, was a lot better.
00:18:05
Speaker
So there were pockets of the country that did have actually promotion relegation in the youth ah game, specifically Southern California. one of the One of the best leagues that have produced unbelievable players was um the Southern California League um in the kind of late 2010s or early 2010s, excuse me. um that They had that system, but they had um but they what they called the Development Academy, which So, and this was much smaller than ECNL or MLS Next. There were only, I want to say 50 clubs, but a very small number of clubs in the country were what they called the DA.
00:18:41
Speaker
On top of that, they had residencies. So Pulisic and McKinney and guys like that would go to Florida and they would stay there and they would train there for weeks. Um,
00:18:52
Speaker
and what And they also had a very strong ODP program, Olympic Development Program, which has become a complete shell of itself. So you would have, you know, these, in a way, these kind of filtration systems where you'd have local ODP, you'd have regional e ODP, you'd have national ODP, and players would matriculate up.
00:19:11
Speaker
And so you would actually get, in many respects, a system where where the best players came to the top. Now, it wasn't perfect. There was a lot of issues with it. But once U.S. soccer gave youth development to MLS, which happened basically with COVID, did did the DA disbanded and on all this stuff, I think that was the sort of beginning of the end. um Because again, m MLS, I mean, here's here's just the other sort of way to go. MLS is going to sound crazy and controversial to to maybe you and your viewers.
00:19:46
Speaker
MLS has no um incentive to develop players whatsoever. and MLS teams. They don't have any incentive whatsoever. um and And the reason being is there's no there's no risk of them losing money.
00:19:59
Speaker
Like MLS franchises are only going to increase in value because it's a closed system that just, you know, will, you know, is going to beat inflation. um Sports,
00:20:11
Speaker
investments in general are one of the best investments ever. So there's not a lot of incentive to develop a player. um Yes, there is some bragging rights. And, you know, if you win and MLS next, that's great. But it's a totally different set of incentives versus like if Tottenham had gone down,
00:20:29
Speaker
they would they'd be losing in the area of $350 million dollars at least. And that's just when you talk about like media rights and all this other stuff, they would have had to sell a bunch of players. like they' and like They would have had to fire people. like That level of risk and incentive changes and drives behavior.
00:20:48
Speaker
So, you know, there are levels of accountability in that system that we don't have. So you just you you naturally get, you know, a completely different development system when when you get in those circumstances.
00:21:03
Speaker
And so I guess why is MLS then and then the trickle down sort of to the club system in the United States youth club system?
00:21:15
Speaker
Why is MLS closed and in most other countries their leagues are not? So this goes back to a um sort of backdoor handshake agreement that FIFA made with U.S. soccer in 1994 when we hosted the first World Cup here in the States.
00:21:33
Speaker
So part of the agreement um to host the World Cup was we had to develop a professional league. So we had what's called the NASL, the North American Soccer League, in the late 70s, early 80s. And Pele was involved and Beckenbauer and a lot of big names. um That league, unfortunately, financially collapsed. And there's a lot of reasons why that happened. um And so in the 90s, when we got the bid to um to host the World Cup...
00:22:02
Speaker
The, you know, and and I don't blame necessarily um the the, you know, the billionaire owners for doing this, but they were like, well, we're going to develop this league, you know, major league soccer. What if it goes, what if it, what if we lose all this money and and and it doesn't work like NASL?
00:22:18
Speaker
So the way that they sort of tried to protect themselves is they ah talked to FIFA and FIFA allowed them to have a league that doesn't have promotion and relegation because it's completely against the laws, like the the the FIFA laws. Like like FIFA has rules in how leagues have to operate across the world. One of them is you have to have promotion or relegation. um There's a loophole that they allowed United States to to to sort of get get on. And that's why we have the league that we have now.
00:22:46
Speaker
I think you could argue that the league is clearly sustainable now. And there's really no reason why we shouldn't be following what the rest of the the world, the FIFA laws of the game.
00:22:57
Speaker
um So, you know, the only reason not to is to protect billionaires. um And and i I, for the life of me, don't understand how so many people in this country stick up for the league that we have. You know, like like they they... They somehow defend, well, well if ah why would the owners want to lose you know their money? Like this is a very small percentage of their money. What's like, you know, the the owners, which the other the other facet of this, you know, Eric, is that I don't know that people understand that there really aren't clubs.
00:23:27
Speaker
Like there's no clubs. It's all one club. like like they're Like Philadelphia Union is no different than Inter Miami, no different than Sporting KC, no different than Real Salt Lake. Like they're all one club. um They're just franchises of MLS. They're McDonald's.
00:23:40
Speaker
like Like if you in other countries, like they're like in other countries, if let's say Manchester United signed Messi, Manchester City wouldn't be happy about that.
00:23:52
Speaker
But Miami, you know, signing Messi was good for everybody. It's making everybody money. Like, like there's, again, there's no competition. So it doesn't really matter. You know, we we go back to development. It doesn't really matter about development because no one's going to lose anything.
00:24:09
Speaker
at the youth club soccer level, then if I am, let's just really simplify it and say I'm a club by myself, it you know, I represent a club, then because there's kind of a break point when we reach the professional level in the United States where my top team can never really break into then, know,
00:24:36
Speaker
then you know i I might end up looking at my players and my teams and saying, well, we're just going to carve out the strongest position we believe that we can get because we're going to sign an agreement to join ECNL perhaps or some other league.
00:25:00
Speaker
And we are going to... because we're winning and or we can claim some sort of prestige or something else. We are just going to try and and and protect that position because, again, we can never break in to that top level.
00:25:20
Speaker
Is that sort of what I'm hearing here? Yeah, it's it's all about control. It's all about, you know, because a lot of a lot of people look at U.S. soccer or they look at MLS and they say, well, they're just, it's about money. It's about, you know, controlling money and it has nothing to do with money. In fact, if U.S. soccer wanted to make more money, if MLS wanted to make more money, they would open the system because the amount of investment that would flood into this country, if MLS decided that
00:25:52
Speaker
today, we are going to open up, ah you know, the the pyramid in 2030 or 2035 or whatever it might be, there would be every semi-millionaire who who had money to your discretionary income, you know, would start investing in clubs in this country because you would have the opportunity if your club was successful enough to get into the first tier.
00:26:17
Speaker
um as ah as a club As a youth soccer club, you know you know most of these clubs, you know and we we always use the example of the the biggest ones, started as youth clubs, amateur clubs. Now, obviously, this was 100 years ago.
00:26:31
Speaker
But some of them, i mean, you know ah you look at Wrexham is probably the the the top of mind example for everybody. So Wrexham was in the the sixth, I think, division, the very lowest professional division. They were almost relegated to the amateur division in England, in in Scotland, where they are, I guess, England, but it's there in Scotland. um They're Wales, excuse me. ah They, you know, got flooded with money from, you know, um Rob McElhenney and Ryan Reynolds. And now they are, we're on the verge of being in the Premier League. So they went from, i think they, think they put $2 million dollars into the club initially and they got an evaluation now of like 500, something like that. Um, that's, that's the kind of thing that could happen to the youth clubs in this country. So, um, you know, I, I'll use an example of, I don't, I don't know if you, if you, if you're familiar with FC Delco, they're very big and and sort of like, um,
00:27:33
Speaker
They've been around a long time. they've They won national championships years and years ago, but they're they're based in Philadelphia. And um you know whether they're doing good things or not good things, I have no i have no knowledge of them at all other than we we we play them quite a bit.
00:27:46
Speaker
But they're a very big club. Let's say that you are you know a millionaire, a billionaire. You live in Philadelphia and you want to invest and and buy FC Delco's youth club.
00:27:57
Speaker
Well, you're going to put a bunch of money in it knowing that potentially your first team ah could get to MLS at some point. That would have huge ramifications on the youth.
00:28:08
Speaker
like facilities, coaches, like, you know, and and and quite frankly, like the costs would likely go dramatically down. So for parents, um and we can get into the differences in costs, the reason why your costs are so much is because the club has no other way, really, of augmenting the costs other than parent tuition. Whereas in other countries, there are multiple other ways of augmenting the youth, their youth clubs.
00:28:39
Speaker
How does college play into this? You know, in any other country, Scotland, Argentina, whatever, do, is a common place for high level players to go college and then into the professionals? Do they skip it all together? And then how does that look in the United States? Yeah.
00:29:00
Speaker
In Argentina specifically, there there's no sports in in their educational system. Like they're two completely different different silos. So kind of what you have to decide when you're probably 14 Argentina, if you're a high level player, is if you're going to try to become a professional or if you're going to you know go go the educational route. and it's And it's really interesting when you, I talked to my my, so my wife is from Argentina And so when I talked to my father-in-law, it's, he's a very, I don't want to say he's anti-sport, but he's sort of like what, like, like my, my, my older son in particular put plays MLS next. and And he, you he spends a lot of his time in, in the soccer sphere. And my father-in-law is like, why are you doing that? He needs to start, you know, focusing on his education. Right.
00:29:53
Speaker
um And I think a lot of American parents and grandparents might look at that and say, wow, he's he's playing in the highest league of the country. Like, he should really focus on that. And like you know and and he knows this, so he's not going to be a professional soccer player. like like There are just levels to this. He's very good. Don't get me wrong. He's very good. And could he play in college? He certainly could.
00:30:12
Speaker
um But he's not going to be a pro. And You know, I don't think that maybe most parents understand that. And I think a lot of times, you know, they put a lot of emphasis on how good a particular player is without really understanding kind of, you know, where they are levels. um And so and in in Argentina, there is there is no such thing. um My take on college soccer is probably very different than most. um I think that college soccer is, um and I know they're, I don't know if you you sort of saw that big change that they're making in college soccer. They're going to to a year round um and they actually had a whole symposium um with all these recommendations on changes in college soccer. They might actually do promotion relegation, yeah,
00:31:01
Speaker
My take is college soccer is is an experience. Like if you want to go and and and and have a good time, i don't think there's anything wrong with it. I mean, I played college baseball, for example, and it was fantastic.
00:31:13
Speaker
But in general, and the advice I give my own son, is that you should go to college for what you're going to do in college, like what you want to do for your life. you know um And i think i think I think in general, the importance of college has gotten dramatically lower than it used to be. And I don't want to i don't want to go on that tangent. But um what my advice to my own son is like you know where do you see yourself in five or 10 years and make your decision based on that? And I i don't think in five or 10 years he's going to be he's going to be playing professional soccer. So um I think that many times college soccer parents get this disillusioned. They're just disillusioned by some sort of scholarship down the line. and And the reality is the chances of you getting a scholarship for the amount of money you're putting into your son or daughter's youth system over the whatever 10 years, let's say that they're in the system. There's no.
00:32:03
Speaker
you know, it would be in the area on the low end, let's say you're spending a thousand dollars a year. So that's 8,000. And on the high end, it's much more than that. So, you know, it could be, could be 80 grand over 10 years that you're spending on your son or daughter's youth soccer. Like the chances of you getting a college scholarship for, for that amount are pretty low, especially when it comes to soccer.
00:32:24
Speaker
So maybe the system will change when it comes to college soccer, but you know, in, in general, The other problem, and this gets gets into sort of youth development, by the time you are 18, 19, 20, like you should be a professional.
00:32:40
Speaker
If we're being really honest, like like you you if you're just going to play some form of amateur soccer, which college soccer is, you you're not going to be a professional. um most people. Now, there are some, you know, there's always going to be these exceptions. They talk about, you know, DeAndre Ledlin, he went to, um you know, he played college soccer and then went on to have a very successful career and Jordan Morris and people like that.
00:33:04
Speaker
But, you know, those are really rare exceptions. Those are, you know, most of the guys who are going to be professional, they're going to be a pro at 16. um And that, again, is is the issue with our system is we really don't have The capacity, you know, the even the MLS, you know, we we can talk about MLS, even the MLS clubs like Philadelphia Union and and new York Red Bulls, the vast majority of those youth players are not pros. They're not going to be pros. Like they're they're going to go play at very, very good colleges. They're going to go play at North Carolina and and Penn and, you know, good for them and Harvard. But um they're not going to be pros.
00:33:39
Speaker
And it all goes back to the system and how it's set up. Because these clubs are just not incentivized to create pros. You know, they'll they'll create a few here and there, and that's great. But there's no real incentive for them to do so.
00:33:53
Speaker
I guess... I have either assumed, or maybe it's implied here, that the general message that is implied, if not explicitly stated to parents, is you join our club and the sky's the limit, sort of. i mean, maybe not that much, but you know we're going to take your son or daughter somewhere.
00:34:17
Speaker
And you're saying that Not just because of the reality of sport. You know, so few players make it to each subsequent level. You know, to become professional, it's 0.0001% or whatever of all players, right?
00:34:35
Speaker
But it's not just the reality of sport and advancing in sport. But also that the reality of the American system is that a lot of the promises that are made cannot be fulfilled upon because the system limits the development of my child.
00:35:02
Speaker
Yeah, no doubt. And I do want to differentiate a little bit because there is slight variances between the boys and the girls side. I think my experience is much more on the boys side. um And I do think that there is a bit more of a matriculation of girls soccer in college to professional. um that that that That has to be said.
00:35:23
Speaker
But in general, the system is set up really not to develop a player to get to become a pro. Whereas in other countries, that's that's exactly what the incentives are. Like you're trying to find, most clubs are trying to find the three or four players who they either will get to a certain point to move on or they'll play on their first team or they'll they'll bring some level of value to that club. And and I think this might kind of transition into, you
00:35:55
Speaker
the differences between how clubs here are um compensated versus the way that clubs are compensated elsewhere in the world. Because I don't think people have a great idea of that. So in this country, you really only can generate revenue primarily through parent payments. Now, there are some other avenues, advertisements, um you know, things like that, but it's typically a small percentage comparative to your overall budget. You know, I don't know what percentage it would be, but it's 2%, 3%.
00:36:30
Speaker
two percent three percent Like the the vast majority, let let's just say it's 10% just to to to to say that. The vast majority of your revenue has to come from parent payment. And unfortunately,
00:36:43
Speaker
the system set up here is very expensive. And that's not the club's fault. the The system is extremely expensive to rent fields. There's no augmentation from the government. So in many other countries, um you know I have some experience in Iceland. In Iceland, every single family is given $300 per, I think it's every three months or four months to to do some form of sport.
00:37:09
Speaker
It doesn't have to be soccer, could be anything. um And so, you know, at at the youth levels, um I had an opportunity to do some coaching there. um A lot of the the clubs are are basically free and they're augmented through the government.
00:37:23
Speaker
um So that's so. So let me just step back a minute. So. So that's in general in America, you have parent payments as that you your majority of. In other countries, there are many other avenues to where you can actually generate revenue.
00:37:39
Speaker
I just mentioned many other um governmental programs. So there are some um countries that augment um the the the way that clubs operate. There are many um smaller local municipalities that actually will give fields for free in other countries.
00:37:55
Speaker
Like you don't have to pay. And I know that happens here too. Um, the The other piece of this is, again, we talked about it before, is most of these clubs. um And it has to be said that in other countries, specifically in Scotland, but in in most most of Europe, there's a big differentiator between recreational and like youth academy. So recreational is more like you know what we would think traditionally is rec. But unfortunately, our rec in this country has become academy. Everything's an academy now. like even Even the lowest levels of rec, like... ah
00:38:29
Speaker
In other countries, that level is typically almost free. Now, when you get into a quote academy, it's not necessarily free, but it's extremely cheap. And so the other ways that these academies in other countries have to generate revenue is one, they get um revenue from their first team. So their first team will play games in some form of a stadium. They will sell tickets. They will sell merchandise. They will sell food. That that generates a decent amount of revenue and is actually normally a big a big game changer for clubs. Like they they thrive on game day sales.
00:39:02
Speaker
That's number one. Number two is the incentive to develop players. So there's something called training compensation and solidarity payments. So if you develop a player for a certain amount of time, and this is a FIFA calculation, this is not like some, you know, it's very objective. So from the age of 12 to 22, you actually get, so if if a player was in your club from age 12 to 15 and then they moved on, you sold them, whatever, those three years, anytime that player is bought and sold, there's a calculation where you would actually get money that would come back to your youth club.
00:39:39
Speaker
So, you know, that that actually is ah is a decent amount of money. It's not a huge amount of money. It depends on the player. And obviously, if it's it's a huge's if it's if it's a big player, then you get a lot of money. But that that's one piece. And then you can also sell that player on. You can move them on. And that's not a calculation. That's a negotiation. So if you were to develop a player, let's say here, we'll use the Kansas City example. Let's say we had a player who at 12 years old signed for...
00:40:06
Speaker
Kansas City Rage, we'll call them. And they are two hours outside of Kansas City. And that player, you know, Sporting KC is interested in. And you sell them for $50,000, some nominal amount, right?
00:40:19
Speaker
Well, let's say that Kansas City developed that player. And now at 18, Real Madrid comes along and is going to buy him for $3 million. dollars There's a calculation that we would get for the three years that they were at our club that would come to us.
00:40:33
Speaker
OK, and so, you know, those things don't exist here. Like those incentives don't exist here. And so that that becomes the prep, the precipice for why the main incentive for youth clubs is essentially just parent payments.
00:40:50
Speaker
I have experienced that. Club coaches seem to be very possessive of players, you know, like it's it, that's my player. I don't want them going to other tryouts. And if they choose to go to another team, then they're just really not thinking about, they don't value the same things that I value. you know, and then maybe a coach will take his or her team and they'll move to another club because they want to coach the first team. And now, you know, like this year in the United States, we're dealing with the whole birth year, grade year change, at least with some leagues and many of them, if they're following U S youth soccer and they're
00:41:40
Speaker
So you may have two first team coaches that because of the age of their children are moving into the same year, so to speak, and now there's conflict. And so one of them says, fine, I'm just taking my team and I'm going to another club where I can coach the first team.
00:42:01
Speaker
And then these statements will be made like, well, it's all about the kids and they're not thinking about the best interests of the kids. And so I realize I'm kind of mixing a couple of things together here.
00:42:14
Speaker
But what I'm wondering about really is do you... see as much of that possessiveness, I guess, and also maybe being so judgmental about somebody's decision is not based on the right values or they're not thinking about the kids or something. Do you think that that occurs as much in these other soccer systems in other countries?
00:42:37
Speaker
you know I can only speak about my own experiences, but um you know in in Argentina, um you know moving players to a better situation is is typically something people strive to do. um you know there's you know i my My two kids, they they got the chance, as I mentioned before, to train with Belgrano in Cordoba. And, um, you know, my, my, my wife's family's from there. So yeah I got to talk with, um, with some of her uncles and they would tell me stories of players who were at smaller clubs who got to Belgrano and they're like, oh, this, this kid, uh, yeah, he lived down the street from us and we would see him kicking the ball around. And I can't believe he got to Belgrano and he's playing here. And, um, you know, the, the times when I was able to, and and my Spanish is, is, is awful, unfortunately, but, um I was able to talk a little bit to the coaches at Belgrano and they would talk about players that they had sent to Boca.
00:43:33
Speaker
They would say, oh gosh, you know, we, we, we, we had a player, we sold the book and I, developed them. And um that, I don't know if I've ever had that conversation with coaches in this country. um Coaches are extremely possessive of their players here um for, for a variety of reasons. I mean,
00:43:52
Speaker
Unfortunately, club coaches' salaries are dependent on parent payments. So you know there's that there's that motivation. um There's also quite a bit of ego when it comes to you know um coaches here, which I think that probably goes for everywhere. But when the system is set up the way it is, there's no real...
00:44:12
Speaker
objective way of you know validating you know somebody being better or worse than others other than just you know you saying what you're saying or I'm coaching at this club and this club is in this league, but it's all perception based. There's no objectivity to it. So Um, you know, what, what I do see definitely is, you know, coaches who don't want their players to, you know, go try out elsewhere or look at other experiences or, you know, um, one of the questions I get all the time, especially around tryouts is, you know, I'll get an email and a parent will present, you know, two different scenarios. So I have this club that I'm currently at, and this is what's going on. And I have this other club.
00:44:55
Speaker
Should I go try out for this team? And, you know, And there's is always based on what the particular context of that player and that family and all that stuff is. But, you know, the one thing I always tell them is just go train with that team that you're interested in training with and get that experience and see what it is. i mean, i I give that advice to my own players. I mean, you know, i i try to be...
00:45:19
Speaker
It sometimes comes back to bite me, but I try to be as transparent as I can with the players that I have. So if I have a player who's struggling, um i you know i typically have a middle-of-the-year meeting and I say, look, you know he's he's had a rough fall.
00:45:32
Speaker
um you know he's He's on the back end of the team currently. you know um you know and And I actually had a meeting before tryouts with with pretty much every player this year where I kind of gave him an idea.
00:45:45
Speaker
my current players because, you know, tryouts are really for kids. You don't know. i mean, i don't need a tryout to tell me what I, you know, i've I've been spending the last eight, nine months with with this group of players. I have a pretty good idea everybody stands. So I like to give parents that perception or not perception that, that information, because if they want to look elsewhere, cause they, they're not happy or they don't agree with me, I want them to to get a chance to do that.
00:46:09
Speaker
but, that a lot of that would go away if the system was different. A lot of that would, you know, that's the other thing too, that, you know, in at least my experience and the in internationally is that parents are much more realistic, even, even so in some respects, maybe pessimistic about where their player sits. Like,
00:46:29
Speaker
I might look at a player in Argentina and be like, oh man, he's really good. Wow. And the parent might be like, yeah, he's okay. We'll see what happens. you know like Whereas here, i just think that a lot of it is culturally, either the parents don't have a good understanding of the game or they they they they weren't growing up playing soccer, or they don't have the experience of seeing the different levels.
00:46:56
Speaker
I mean, if you haven't seen top academies internationally, you have no idea where maybe a player might sit. And ah and ah and a player, you know, again, I use my own son. Like my oldest son is, I don't know, he's one of the better players, let's say, in MLS Next um at a lower, maybe...
00:47:15
Speaker
<unk>s he's not going to be a professional and and some people but you know might might not understand that um when it comes to, but again, if the system were different, you know people would have a better idea because there's some objective you know measures you could make.
00:47:28
Speaker
You mentioned talking about player development as a a little bit separate from this a while back. And, you know, we touched only briefly in our first conversation on burnout.
00:47:45
Speaker
And in, even in our little pre-chat before we started recording, i was talking about kind of the, the home environment, I think was how you referred to it when we were discussing this.
00:47:59
Speaker
And I'm wondering, you know, in our first conversation, you said that there was kind of a mentality difference between your first team players and your second team players. And I forget exactly what the distinction was, but it was something like one of the teams, when they have a loss, they take it harder than the other team and they respond differently.
00:48:26
Speaker
And so I guess where I'm i'm hoping to shift to is Are there things that you see that are just personality traits or things that maybe come from the home environment or culture that distinguish a you know really top level player, like somebody who has a real opportunity to become a pro or get near there from the next level down. And then maybe even there's another level that is like, these are just basically recreational players, but it's never going anywhere.
00:49:03
Speaker
Yeah. And that's that's a good, a good question. you know How much of it is the system versus our culture and vice versa? You know, the The idea of burnout, um as as we were talking about before we started, I think is definitely cultural. um You know, we have, you know, and and I don't know if if you're the same way, but, you know, on my Instagram reels and my YouTube algorithms, different things will come around and it's it's cyclical. Like, they'll talk, you know, winning versus development and, you know, player burnout and multi-sport specialty and single-sport specialty. Like, yeah.
00:49:41
Speaker
Players who, my my top players, i I'll give you an example. Like we we finished our season ah with a Memorial Day tournament and I gave everybody that, excuse me, that week off.
00:49:53
Speaker
This week was kind of our first week of optional stuff. And so we did um Monday session, Wednesday session, and Thursday we had actually a ah speed agility. Like basically we were at the track doing stuff.
00:50:08
Speaker
Um, so out of, out of my current 20, so I have like 14 or 15 kids on the, what they call the MLS homegrown first team. And I have some kids who are like guest players on the second team who kind of intermix. So about 20 kids.
00:50:27
Speaker
I had 18 on Monday. i had 19 on Wednesday and I had 15 came to speed agility on, on Thursday. So those kids, a those those those are the top kids. They really can't get enough of training of playing of, you know, those kids will go guest play on weekends where we don't have stuff. They will, um, they'll do anything. You know they have, they have, they have trainers who they do, you know, technical work with a trainer on the side. Um,
00:50:57
Speaker
And, you know, some of it is parent driven, but I would say the majority of it is player driven. They can't get enough. um There are players maybe on the second team who do multiple sports. You know, they they play soccer, but, you know, um it's not necessary. i mean I have kids who I know are are doing an hour of wall ball and juggling on their own every day at home.
00:51:19
Speaker
you know ah And so this idea of burnout, I think, doesn't really exist when in in in the in the setting of the top level, top motivated players. um you know I don't know if you're familiar with Tom Byers, but he is an American who lives in Japan and is... is probably, you know, one of five or six huge, huge guys in Japan who have um sort of developed that culture over the last 25 to 30 years to where my personal opinion is I think they will be the next non-team who's already won the World Cup to win it.
00:51:52
Speaker
I think that's the next nation who hasn't already won a World Cup. That's the one who's going to win it. In fact, I think they'll they'll be the first non-South America, non-European team to win the World Cup. And So his whole thing is soccer starts at home and how you develop um a player from age like two on. And like there's a lot of like I'm not going to go down that road. But what he talks about in Japan is so the culture in Japan, if you're a youth player and you're going to play soccer and this actually goes for anything in Japan.
00:52:22
Speaker
So Japan youth teams, they train three hours a day, five days a week. they train after school from 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. Monday through Friday. And the parents don't bat an eye.
00:52:33
Speaker
They just feel like that's what it is. And in Japan, that becomes like if you're a musician, if you know you are interested in you know art, if you whatever you're doing in Japan, that culture is you're going to do it 100%.
00:52:47
Speaker
ah hundred percent um And I'm sure there are pockets. I'm sure that's not all Japanese people. I'm sure there are you know lazy Japanese people. I'm notm not saying that. But and when it comes to soccer... And the youth game over there, that they will train 15 hours a week from age seven. And that's just ingrained in them. And so, you know, that, you know, that here, I don't know if that would be tolerated here. I know my top team would do it. um But, you know, I'm talking at all levels there, like like at all levels in Japan, like that's considered, you know, if you're going to play soccer, you're that's that's what it is.
00:53:19
Speaker
So I think that part of it is, you know, that the culture. um And I would say, you know, the one thing about culture, the soccer culture in this country, i think that's a big misconception. Like people will say, one, we don't have the culture to our best athletes play other sports. I think both of those are completely, I think, debunked. um I do think that we have some great athletes playing other sports, but we have huge cultural pockets in this country, specifically Latino cultures in this country, but also Eastern European pockets of this country ah and in New Jersey, for example, um you know, who are Ukrainian or Polish, um who who, you know, soccer is in the household and it's everything.
00:54:01
Speaker
um And i I think because of the system, the way it's set up, those pockets of the country can't rise to the top. So we have, you know, in Southern California, there are huge Latino soccer clubs, but a lot of those clubs can't get to the heights of the top, you know, not even professional. They can't get into ECNL. They can't get into and MLS next um because there's some gatekeepers that don't allow them.
00:54:27
Speaker
And you know maybe they wouldn't in a merit-based system anyway, but there's no we don't know that. we We have no idea. And so you don't allow these cultures to rise to levels where they might get um because the way the system is set up.
00:54:41
Speaker
And so I think that for a lot of maybe you know suburban cultures, you know playing three sports is very important. Playing multiple sports is very important, and that's fine.
00:54:54
Speaker
But my suspicion is that those cultures would not, in a in a merit-based system, rise to the top versus a culture of soccer's at home and they're playing it all the time. And and i don't it would to me, it would be unlikely that that culture would, would in a meritocracy, would rise to the same level that the other one is. But we just don't have that. There's no level playing field.
00:55:22
Speaker
Rory, what would happen if you were to adopt, I guess, the Japanese model and you were to take your team to training three hours a day, five days a week? I mean, it's set aside any compensation for you or the time investment for you or other coaches that are with you.
00:55:43
Speaker
Would your parents go for it? If your parents didn't go for it, would you find other players? And then where might that end after a year or two or five of doing that?
00:55:56
Speaker
So this is actually happening um in small pockets of the country right now. And if I were going to, um let's say, if I were going to propose a solution and that wasn't an open ecosystem, because um i'm i'm ah I'm going to answer that question, but I'm i'm extremely conflicted because of the World Cup right now, extremely conflicted. um because I want to root for the United States, um which I will, ah but I'm worried because I think we're going to do well.
00:56:30
Speaker
um And that is not good for youth soccer in this country. um Because of all the reasons we described, the system will essentially remain the same. Because if, let's say, the United States makes the quarterfinals of the World Cup or the semifinals even,
00:56:43
Speaker
um Everybody will think things are good. You know, they won't understand they're living in the matrix. that they They will just believe that that everything is well and all is good. And good look how good the national team is doing. and and And the national team has some good players and and they have a world-class coach. so And they're playing on home soil. So I want to root for them to do well, but I'm really worried that when they do well, the system won't change. So Assuming the system doesn't change, the the the answer for this is happening in small pockets of the country, and it is soccer schools. So it is schools that are, you know, your your your player basically goes to school and they come in around 8 o'clock, 8.30, and they train for two hours.
00:57:30
Speaker
And then in the same building, they go to school from 10.30 3.00.
00:57:36
Speaker
And then they go home. And um a lot of these players have club teams, so they go and they train at night too. That's the answer for development of players is to control that entire player's environment during the day.
00:57:48
Speaker
So what I would do if I had, you know, well if i had if if I had my magic wand, I would instantly do promotion relegation. and And we could do this. People say we can't do it. They could easily U.S. soccer because what's happening right now is MLS owns U.S. soccer. They run it.
00:58:05
Speaker
So we don't we have ah a league that is running a federation. That doesn't happen. Like the English Premier League does not run the the English FA. ah The English FA is responsible for all the leagues being in England, not just the English Premier League.
00:58:18
Speaker
So, so if U.S. soccer decided that they're not going to be beholden to MLS anymore and said, listen, in 2035, we'll give you a 2036, we'll give you a 10 year runway in 2035. It's going to be promotion relegation. This is it's going to look like. They could do that.
00:58:34
Speaker
They could say, listen, we're going to abide by the laws of FIFA. Assuming that we could not do that, which I don't think that will happen. I don't think in my lifetime, but maybe I would start my own school. And I think clubs really need to look into this and say,
00:58:49
Speaker
um Instead of being or or with being a club, we will also now be a school where your son or daughter will come um and pay tuition of some kind. And we will have soccer training in the morning, school from 10 to 3, and then you do whatever you want.
00:59:07
Speaker
Or we train again at night. that's how you get to the level that I think most of the country would need to become competitive. Because as much as I want to see the United States do really well in this World Cup, like we have no chance of winning it.
00:59:20
Speaker
Zero. Like absolutely zero. Like we we don't have any chance. um There's like six or seven countries that really have a chance. um and And maybe a couple like Colombia who could be a wild card or Japan, as I mentioned. But that's because they're developing a player of such caliber.
00:59:35
Speaker
And we just don't. and And again, people don't understand if you don't have this worldview or experience or knowledge, like if you haven't experienced, like this is why players who bomb out in Europe just come and play college over here. Like like the the the internationals who come and play college here, they couldn't make it in wherever country they're from. So they come and get a free education and play soccer here, which is good for them. But but I think most people probably think college soccer is some upper level, like high level.
01:00:05
Speaker
And it's, it's, it's, it's essentially amateur. Okay. So if somebody was to go to a soccer school, then there's certainly the potential that they're, it's not player driven and they're being pushed into it by their parents, but there would be, you know, different sort of milestones or stages that you could evaluate, is this the right path for the player? You know, whether the school is determining, do they let them in
01:00:37
Speaker
Or, you know, if there's tuition payments, right, then to some extent, the parents are the customer. And so we run into a similar challenge to club soccer right now, but it still, there would be a slightly different evaluation.
01:00:54
Speaker
And, you know, i forget if we said this, if I said this explicitly in our first conversation, but I remember thinking at the very least that it seems to me that it's much more likely that a player burns out. And I want to use that term very broadly here.
01:01:17
Speaker
You know, that they just reach some point and they can't get past it and they give up. or they become mentally exhausted or whatever, just very broadly burnout. It seems more likely to me that a player burns out when we try to compress their development, their experience with the sport into a very small timeframe.
01:01:40
Speaker
And so Before we started recording, I referenced that, you know, I see, i feel like i've I've gotten more exposure to the kids that watch soccer at home or their parents played soccer or something like that, that because it's just kind of in the water, it's in the air that they breathe, that Not always, but much more often, those are the kids that are just excited to play, whether they're at training or they just pick up a soccer ball and they can, you know, sort of juggle or whatever it is versus the kids that they really want to play soccer, but it's because kids like to play.
01:02:26
Speaker
you know, and that kid, maybe sometimes, you know, one out of every 10 sets of parents or something are pushing the kid, like you have to be the best. And, and, but if they're not supporting an environment, if they're not creating an environment where soccer is just always around, then it feels like the pressure becomes so immense in training. that You have to get it right in this three hours or six hours a week, and you have to get it right in the game.
01:02:59
Speaker
There's much less of like, well, soccer is just a thing that I do. So it does feel to me like when you're talking about schools, for example, that yes, there are still some similar challenges, as I was saying,
01:03:14
Speaker
but that as we spread out the expectation to constantly be successful over a much longer timeframe, you know, you are training every day.
01:03:25
Speaker
You're looking at, did the player develop through the year? For example, maybe the school is looking at not how, not so much how did our individual team perform, but did we develop players that went on to one club or another club or another club after school?
01:03:43
Speaker
And did they do well? It seems like that really would reduce the opportunity for what I'm describing as burnout. Yeah, for for sure. and And I want to make sure that people understand, i don't think soccer schools are the answer. The answer is an open ecosystem and promotion relegation. It's just what do I think is the most likely alternative. And the at least the schools that I have seen um tend to focus on individual development. So it's not so much about a team. Now, some of these schools are are affiliated with a club. Some of them are club neutral. So there are challenges to all of it, right? Like you're going to have a lot of the same pitfalls that you have where you're you know you' you're you' really focusing more on parent tuition and payments and stuff like that. um and And there are actually states like like Florida, for example, will give you $3,000 if you go to a school like that from from the state.
01:04:42
Speaker
But regardless of all of that, um promotion relegation is the answer. When it comes to some of these schools that I have seen, like they have a curriculum based on an individual development. So, you know, how many juggles did your player you know start getting versus at the end of the semester versus, you know. And so the training and the incentives and sort of the prism with which they're looking at that is a little bit different than if you're a club coach and you've got ah you know, a team for three hours a week or whatever it might be. um You know, it it it, to me, that is really,
01:05:19
Speaker
That's a better situation um than the club system because the club system really, you have a much smaller timeframe. Your focus, you know, which it should be is on the team, you know, not necessarily individual development. It's really more on that player. And so what I see to kind of get back to your, to the burnout topic you know,
01:05:40
Speaker
Players who do kind of the stuff I mentioned on their own, whether that be particularly, you know, player driven 100% versus some parent driven versus culture versus resources. um Those are the players that develop um as the years go on and the ones who make the the higher teams. It's.
01:05:58
Speaker
You know, obviously, if they do well in my practice sessions, that helps. But you could clearly see like, you know, for example, you know, we we usually take, you know, somewhat of a break, you know, around Thanksgiving and maybe maybe we'll do a couple of things, but we don't really start up again until, you know, in into January.
01:06:17
Speaker
You can clearly tell the players who have been working their butt off in their basement on their first touch for the last you know month and a half and the players who maybe haven't touched a ball in the last month and a half. So I think that what happens, at least from my perspective in the club scene is, you know, depending on the club, of course, the the players that end up making that first team or or ascending are the ones that just can't get enough and and don't get burned out. And the players that do yeah or that don't, they're just their focus is different or their particular environment is just different.
01:06:48
Speaker
Before we move away from the burnout topic, I want to just get your opinion on this. What do you think when you see some of these former professional athletes, whether it's in soccer, you know, you have Landon Donovan or you have some former professional NFL players or whatever. And, you know, you always see them, the clips on, you mentioned Instagram or whatever, of them talking about how when I was a kid, we played all the sports.
01:07:17
Speaker
And I think that the fact that kids are only, you know single sport specialization, that's contributing to burnout. What was your reaction to those statements? Yeah, I, man, I i hate those statements. But, you know, like Landon Donovan actually just recently, I think he's promoting a book, came out talking about how horrible the youth system is. Of course, not getting into why the youth system is so bad.
01:07:43
Speaker
um Because if he did that, you know, he would sort of, you know, bite the hand that feeds him. So, you know, ah there's a couple of couple of takes on that. There's a a book by Jeffrey Epstein it's called range. It's, you know, talking about the difference between Tiger Woods and Roger Federer.
01:07:58
Speaker
Um, and I don't know how familiar you are with both of those two stories, but, um, Roger Federer, uh, didn't really play high level tennis till about 14, Um, And talked about how he played all these other sports, including soccer, and and how um you know his family felt that that was sort of instrumental in his development.
01:08:21
Speaker
And then I think most people are familiar with the Tiger Woods story of the 10,000 Hours and how his dad basically you know, whipped him if he didn't touch us ah a club and he was on Johnny Carson at three hitting clubs and all that.
01:08:33
Speaker
um And it just compared and contrast different scenarios. um You know, again, we have a very, um I just, we have tons of evidence in other countries of how this works. And so to ignore that and say that our system and and what we do is correct is is really, it would be like if you were in the scientific community and you had just all this overwhelming evidence on how to develop like the best drug to fight cancer in the world and say, no, you know what? That's not how we're going to develop drugs to fight cancer. We're going to do it this way.
01:09:12
Speaker
Like, like we know how to like, it's not a mystery on how you develop world-class players. It's just not like if you, again, Tom Beyer, the book is called Soccer Starts at Home. If you look at pretty much every world-class player who's ever developed, it is almost the exact same story.
01:09:31
Speaker
They grew up in an incredibly, you know, facilitating environment. They, you know, were went to at at around 12, 13, 14, a world-class academy and were developed in that in that regard. That's how you do it.
01:09:47
Speaker
And so to sit here and say, you know, because we are in America, we should be playing football, basketball, baseball and soccer. And that's how you do it. um Not to say that that can't happen, I think is just ignoring an overwhelming amount of evidence. What I what I really get upset about, especially with these former players um and Lane and Donovan in particular lately, is when they get up there and they talk about the youth system.
01:10:12
Speaker
when they really have very little experience in the youth system. um And the players, like Eric Winalda is a very good example. Eric Winalda has a tremendous amount of experience coaching. and I think he even owned a club or at one point. like like he he is Guys who have a lot of experience in the youth system, I respect their opinion quite a bit, former players.
01:10:32
Speaker
but so most of these former players do not have, you know, and when I say experience, I mean, grind it out. Like you've, you've coached in the lowest levels, you know, you have coached, um you know, in the system.
01:10:46
Speaker
um Cause, cause those guys get it. ah But um you know, it's one of one of the One of the examples i always like to give is you know just because you are have experienced one thing, just because you have gotten to play at the highest levels of soccer in the world and you played in English Premier League, doesn't mean you know everything about soccer. like These guys think that I played for Fulham and I played for the U.S. s national team and and I'm probably...
01:11:15
Speaker
the most decorated U.S. national team player ever. And I have a ton of respect and admiration for Landon Donovan. I mean, I cried when he scored that goal against Ghana. Like, I mean, I 100% know. So it's not it's not personal to him. But he doesn't know a damn thing about coaching in the United States. Like, he doesn't now at the youth level.
01:11:33
Speaker
Just doesn't. um And I don't know anything about playing in the Premier League. So, you know, that that really hurts because... Their microphone is so much bigger than mine and yours. And and and and those guys, it again, it goes back to the system. Those guys are given all the jobs. They're given the commentator jobs. They're given, you know, because Landon still has to provide for his family. Like, he you know, he still has to bring in a paycheck. And so he's going to be a commentator, I'm sure, for the World Cup. But they're not going to give that job to me or you, especially because we're like so, you know, critical of the system.
01:12:04
Speaker
um And again, that's why I'm i'm so conflicted about you know what's what's to come in in the and next coming week because I do think we're going to have a good World Cup and that's not ah going to be a good thing for for the youth system. Yeah, and it's interesting to go back to one of the things you said early in this conversation, you were talking about that from within the system, I think it was from a parent's perspective or something like that, that the way that the system operates just seems very normal.
01:12:30
Speaker
And it if if we think of broader culture, of course, we're going to look at people who played professionally and that they have some credibility with us, especially if we don't have a lot of acquired knowledge about youth soccer.
01:12:51
Speaker
and And because there's this breakpoint between the highest level professionals, whether we want to talk about professional in the U.S. or professional internationally,
01:13:02
Speaker
and ah the club level, the youth club level, there's it makes it incredibly difficult from someone who has acquired some wisdom in the lower levels to break into that upper level and then be credible to the uninformed.
01:13:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a system of complete control. And so you control everything. You control the youth system. You control the media and the message. um And a lot of it does seem to an outside you know perspective normal.
01:13:37
Speaker
Because most parents' experience with other sports is in America. So they're used to the NFL or the NBA or Major League Baseball. And they they have a hard time wrapping their mind around, well, how could MLS and the way they operate affect the way my nine-year-old is playing soccer? like like that there's There's just huge...
01:13:59
Speaker
education gap, um discernment gap that, you know, they just have a hard time reaching. And until you experience another culture or really dive into it, that that piece of it, that educational piece seems to be the the real roadblock. And it's so easy for MLS, for U.S. soccer to divert people. like And because there's so many just...
01:14:28
Speaker
There's so many ways of not getting to the right answer. Like you just say, oh, it's so expensive and it's pay to play. And, you know, and our best athletes don't play soccer and we don't have the culture in this country and coaches are greedy. And Leanna Donovan is saying that this is the problem. And so, you know, it takes quite a bit of someone's own time and energy to get into looking into what the actual problem is um and and educat educating themselves. So, you know, and most people don't really do that. Most people just kind of go along with the the program.
01:15:00
Speaker
um And and if you if you just kind of take the blinders off a little bit and see that, um you know, it's just so tough because the other part of it is most people, once their kids leave a club, their investment in that club is over. Right.
01:15:20
Speaker
So, you know, you kind of, even if you start to think about this just doesn't seem right, something's weird with this. By the time your son is 18 or your daughter's 18, you pretty much have given up on it, right? Like there's not really any, any real pull for you. Whereas it gets back to the way the system's set up. There's no such thing as a real club. Like there's no, like your youth club is just, it's,
01:15:48
Speaker
it's just a transactional experience. Whereas in other countries, um the other piece of the, I forgot this whole piece of, so in other countries, um a lot of the clubs, like they have membership fees. And so you, you live in, um you know, let's say you live in Leeds. um You know, I, follow I follow Leeds as the club I follow in England. If you live in, in that town,
01:16:15
Speaker
A lot, if not every single one of those people who live there pay, I think it's around $50 a year to be a member of Leeds. And that gives you some incentives and some perks. And I think it's additional if you want to like, you know, have ah a season ticket and all that stuff.
01:16:30
Speaker
but it becomes part of you like it's part of your you know culture and your you know leeds football club uh you know they they all they have watch parties they they obviously some memorabilia all this stuff but even if your son or daughter played for one of leeds youth teams once they're 18 and they're they're off to college or or uni as they would call over there whatever um you still are paying $50 and that money goes towards funding the club.
01:16:59
Speaker
So again, it just, it's just such a transactional relationship over here that, you know, it it it feeds into the system and the culture and everything that we've been talking about. um but But people don't really ever figure it out or if they do, sometimes it's just too late. And at that point, you've already gone through the system and a new batch of people are coming through.
01:17:21
Speaker
Rory, you use the phrase, waving a magic wand earlier. And if you could wave, if you could wave a magic wand and not change, you know, the club soccer system, the youth soccer system immediately, but rather you could make some group of people parents, you know, league directors, someone else believe something that maybe they don't believe currently or they don't think currently.
01:17:49
Speaker
And that belief would change their behavior. It would actually have a meaningful difference. It would make a meaningful difference in what they do tomorrow.
01:18:00
Speaker
Is there something you would, some thought you would put into this group's head? yeah You have to change the incentives. And so, you know, the way that you do that is develop a objective measure of success. And, you know, we could do this, by the way, in the youth system and have it not affect and MLS at all.
01:18:23
Speaker
um directly. It would indirectly affect them. So the reason, so we could just say, and I think this would make a ton of sense. We set up 10 regions in the country. Let's just say, how I'm just making that number up. It could be whatever.
01:18:37
Speaker
And each region had ah promotion and relegation. And you could start it however you wanted to start it. You could say the current teams in and MLS Next are Division I, the current teams in ECNL are Division II, the current teams in EDP are Division three whatever. And then you just, you make it a meritocracy. And each, you know, I would do it season. So I would do it fall and spring, but you want to do the whole year. You could do the whole year.
01:19:01
Speaker
After each whatever time interval, the top two clubs get promoted, the bottom two clubs get relegated, but whatever you you you developed. Um, and, and you would do it in a way that would hopefully limit some element of travel.
01:19:15
Speaker
Um, and you could even, you could even have, you know, a champions league where the top two teams in every region would get together for a tournament or, or whatever. And so in that system,
01:19:27
Speaker
you would, over time, clearly see a club that you weren't expecting, ah ah you know, a club that maybe was smaller, get to a level that you weren't expecting. So let's say you have ah a club that's in a regional EDP league now, and they they do a really nice job. um And in three years, they go from, let's say, you ten to or U13. In those three years, they finished first in every league and now they're in the top division and they're playing the New York Red Bulls. And you'd be like, oh my gosh, here's Nobody FC playing the York Red Bulls. Well, one, something about what they're doing is working and it would be a signal to parents, club directors, other players who maybe want to join that club. Well, what is Nobody FC doing that they went from the third division to the top division? They're doing something.
01:20:12
Speaker
and And maybe it's not. Maybe they're just booting the ball down the field and they're scoring. I don't know. But they're doing something. There's something objective about it that is saying, OK, right, that's that's that's doing doing good work. Let's just say um the reason why MLS wouldn't want to do that is because that's a threat to them.
01:20:29
Speaker
Because now somebody's saying, why is nobody FC in the first division against in new York Red Bulls? Like, like that's that's a control thing. That's a, you know, perception thing.
01:20:40
Speaker
um it's It's why, like, basically they set up This entire system to be what it is. They only let certain people in. um And then when you get to the higher levels, um in many respects, they they don't usually allow the same age group, and MLS Next Team, to play. They usually have to play up.
01:21:03
Speaker
So like if you're the U17 Red Bulls, you usually play U19 other teams or you play U17 Union or like you play each other because God forbid ah a same age team were to beat the New York Red Bulls. Like that would just be a terrible perception.
01:21:19
Speaker
So if I were to wave a magic wand in the youth game, which we could do this, people think, oh, you can't do it. You could absolutely do this. um It would just take leadership, but you could do it where you just said, we're going to have ah regions and we're going to have seven tiers or whatever it is. Because this used to happen. They used to do this, especially in California. um And so that would be because you wouldn't even need to necessarily educate people. ah because the proof would be in the the pudding. Like you would you would have, like the system would just naturally matriculate up, you know, the cream. The cream would just rise to the top.
01:21:57
Speaker
And maybe it would be all MLS next teams. That's fine. But at least you would have the opportunity and the chance. Now there is zero, there's no chance. And again, it just gets into where clubs are incentivized. So there's really no incentive for a club to develop a team or players because there's nowhere to go with it.
01:22:15
Speaker
And coming back around to some statements that you'll hear when there's conflict, at the end of the day, you know, we should be developing the player. We should be developing the individual, we should be thinking about the best interests of the child, at least in part, you know, because in large part, I believe, because almost none of these players will go on to be professionals.
01:22:46
Speaker
And so if somebody is going to spend six hours a week or 10 years, or they're going to spend more time potentially, then that's going to have a substantial impact on the doctor that they become.
01:22:59
Speaker
or the parent, or the future coach. And so to not actually act in their best interest and instead to, I guess, protect our investment if we're the billionaire owners is great for us, maybe, but not great for the millions of children.
01:23:17
Speaker
what people don't really understand is this actually impacts the top level players that we, yeah that we do or don't produce. I mean, like you hear these excuses all the time that we've already mentioned about, you know, our best athletes play football or whatever. We don't have the culture, you know, on and on and on, you know, pay to play like,
01:23:41
Speaker
Just from a pure mathematical perspective, we should have developed a dramatically number of better players. Like we should have developed way more Christian politics. And I mean, if you just look at we have more youth soccer players, than the like playing youth soccer players and the entire population of Uruguay, for example.
01:24:03
Speaker
um You know, a just from a pure numbers perspective. And you just, in my in my opinion, you just can't get past that. Like, there's no explanation for the fact that we don't have more world-class players or more, not even not even world-class. that We don't have more players like Spain and France and England. Like, we just, the numbers...
01:24:26
Speaker
Don't dictate that out. You can't look at a system that has so many more participants and say, well, you know just by random chance, we should develop more players. Well, it's not random chance. It's the fact that the system is so corrupt and set up in a way that we can't develop them.
01:24:42
Speaker
um and And to get to your point, there's there's no doubt that we're as youth soccer coaches, we are not in this to develop professionals because we're just not going to very much. Um, we're, we're clearly in it, you know, and I, I try to tell my players, you know, that this is, this is about developing skills for life, you know, because one of the things that, you know, I see and, you know, I, I feel like every generation does this where they say, oh, back in my day, um, I do think that things are changing for youth, um not just youth soccer players, but just youth in this country in general, that things are just easier. And what I mean by that is, um you know, it's so much easier to just get on your phone and, you know, validate yourself. um You know, I, I have so many players, you know, and again, I coach 11 year olds. They have Instagram accounts and they're posting, you know, ah themselves either in a game or training or in it's it's a lot of, you know, and I do think there are some good aspects to social media, but it's just a lot of fakeness in my opinion.
01:25:53
Speaker
And so when, you know, adversity hits, a lot of these kids have a hard time with it. um And so in many respects, sports is like the only outlet for dealing with adversity. um And depending on now, some some parents do a really good job with that. But, but you know, especially if you have, let's say, a parent who's you and not particularly disciplinarian, for example, um you you might have gone through your a lot of your life without dealing with adversity. um I think that schools in particular have gotten extremely non-adversity. tolerance for things and the lack of discipline that that i I feel teachers do anymore and and things like that. And I know we're getting on a whole other topic, so I hate to hijack it. But it gets into kind of what you were talking about with as a coach, how you're developing. So, you know, i I don't, you know, I don't want to lose games, but when I lose a game, it's it's a real, or when something happens in a game, it's a real teachable moment to some of these kids that they might not get anywhere else in their life. And so
01:27:02
Speaker
it i hope i hope that that coaches are more like that. But a lot of times, just getting back into the way the system works, because the system is the way it is, that focus isn't necessarily there. You're so incentivized to win a game, let's just say, um that you're screaming and you're yelling at a kid um because you know either your own ego or you want to win because you want to make the parents happy. or or or whatever it might be, um you know the development piece on the non-soccer side potentially isn't there either.
01:27:34
Speaker
So you just came around to something, or you sort of came back around to it, at least in my mind, Something that I was thinking about earlier and two days from this recording, I'll release an episode with a gentleman named Dr. Ming Ming Chu.
01:27:54
Speaker
And he works at the Education University of Hong Kong, if I recall correctly, but he's worked in a number of different places. i first became aware of him When he was working at I think it was SUNY Buffalo, maybe, but this professor has done all kinds of research, but he did a lot of work and early childhood education.
01:28:23
Speaker
And one of his early big studies found that children that have higher confidence in their reading abilities actually on average end up a year or two or three years later being worse readers than children who have lower confidence.
01:28:45
Speaker
And to put it very simply, the reason for that is that if you're a first grader, And maybe your parents tell you how great you are.
01:28:57
Speaker
You know, that, you you know, you're, you're good at soccer and you're good at school. And anytime you get a bad grade, who knows, maybe some parents say, oh, that's the teacher's fault. Or maybe they say, don't worry about it. You are sick. You're smart.
01:29:12
Speaker
whatever whatever the contributing factors are. Maybe you're just a very confident person, Rory, but you're a first grader and you are given a something to read.
01:29:23
Speaker
If you think I'm really good at reading, When you run into problems, you you are less likely to take responsibility for the fact that it's difficult and you don't do well than somebody else in your first grade class who thinks, well, maybe I'm not that good of a reader. And the reason that this is hard is because I'm not that good.
01:29:51
Speaker
And so they kind of expect to run into problems. And you know we can extrapolate this to or we can apply this to any number of things but talking about it adversity it sure seems like yes we can talk about schools we can talk about life generally but also with sport when we talk about an open ecosystem with soccer that it It's very difficult, right, to balance supporting your player or if, as a coach, supporting your child and, you know, they have a hard game and and saying, you know, don't worry about it. You can get, you can, you know, improve next time.
01:30:38
Speaker
it's It's very difficult to balance the support with not giving them an overinflated sense of their abilities. Because at least as far as I believe, and and I believe as as far as this doctor's research shows, that kind of self-esteem movement sort of stuff that everyone is equally good and, you know, I don't want to take this too far into social commentary, but I think that kind of inflating of self-esteem or the ego actually does have a significant negative impact on the long-term performance of these children, regardless of whether we're talking about reading or soccer or any number of things.
01:31:22
Speaker
Yeah, there's so definitely a balance there. But I've definitely seen that on on my side from, you know, depending on the type of environment that the parent has at the at at home, you know, how disciplined are they?
01:31:37
Speaker
And, you know, the kids who... are maybe not disciplined as much. um They do seem to have a harder time dealing with my discipline per se, or you know ah you know if something goes wrong, they have a much harder time. One of the things that I see quite a bit is deflection.
01:31:58
Speaker
So what'll happen is a player will make a mistake um and you have sort of two different ways of of that happening. You have some players who, you know, they get down on themselves quite quite quickly, you know. um And, you know, how how quickly they bounce back from it depends on kid to kid. um But then they have that we have other players who deflect and say, oh, you know, they they they use some excuse.
01:32:26
Speaker
It was a bad pass from the other player. it hit the ground. You know, there was something like that. um And it is it is interesting to me, like, about how how those players, is is it the environment that that that they've been in at home? And that's kind of, you know, the level of discipline versus – Versus is that just intrinsically who they are? um One of the things I was thinking about when you when you were talking about that doctor's research um is the differences that i I see. And I think it's hard to explain this to a parent, but when you see a kid at nine and then you see a kid at like 14, And, you know, um i i use this example or I try to use this example a lot with um with with parents I'm talking to or or people that that are talking to me about their kid, especially ah ah a younger player.
01:33:19
Speaker
um i coached a team. Let's see, this would have been because my oldest son was on it. um This would have been seven years ago. Um, and he was the best nine-year-old in the state of Pennsylvania. I, I, I, I do not, I'm not saying that for effect. He's a, he's probably the best nine-year-old I have ever seen.
01:33:40
Speaker
Um, and you know, he is not playing soccer anymore. You know, um he's, he's 16 now. um And, and that is just to say that he was so good at nine.
01:33:55
Speaker
I think he took it for granted and you could see the work ethic. You could see the effort level. um He was probably one of the biggest deflectors I've ever seen. If he ever made a mistake, it was never his fault. Like, and so, you know, that, that,
01:34:11
Speaker
mentality and that um sort of work ethic and environment totally changed his projection as a player. Not to say he would have been messy or anything like that, because i I've seen players who are just okay at nine, who are fantastic at 14. The trajectory can be different for everybody, but but what environment are they in, um i think, is such a key. And if things are being given to them that are easy, um and if you know you're not taught to deal with negativity, like i I feel like right now any negativity is is is perceived as an issue or a problem for ah a kid growing up. And I really try to tell as many parents as I can, like, I'm going to be hard on your kid and it's for a reason. And, you know, don't take it the wrong way. i mean, I tell these players all the time, don't, I'm not, what I'm saying to you isn't personal.
01:35:08
Speaker
And if I wasn't hard on you, if I wasn't saying anything to you, that'd be worse. and mean, I wouldn't care. And if you have a coach, you know, and obviously there are lines in the sand and and things you can't cross, of course. But, you know, one of the things that that I always see is if if you have if you ever go to a practice and the coach is just sitting there not saying anything for two hours, you're in the wrong environment.
01:35:31
Speaker
ah depending on the level, if it's rec or whatever, you know there's always these these ah caveats. But um coaches are there to coach and they're they're there to develop and and and drive your player.
01:35:43
Speaker
And so I think that the players who maybe have it easy from a certain a certain standpoint or or they think that they have a hard time developing. Yeah. One thing you reminded me of is So Timothy Galway's The Inner Game of Tennis had a huge impact on coaching. And you know the the Inner Game idea is, for anybody not familiar with that listening to this, is or earth the Inner Game, I should say, in some respects, created the entire field of performance coaching.
01:36:20
Speaker
And yeah the basic idea is that the The more difficult game than the game that is occurring out on the field is actually the game that the the player, the performer, plays in their own head against themselves, against their own doubts, their own anxieties, their whatever else. And so...
01:36:42
Speaker
The biggest argument, basically, that Timothy Galloway makes in the inner game of tennis is that when the coach says, do it like this, or when they say, here's what I think, more or less, that actually just adds on top of all of those inner difficulties.
01:37:03
Speaker
And i don't recall in the inner game or subsequent you know developments in performance coaching, I don't recall any times that you know really well-respected coaches and the research and all that talk about a coach just pumping up someone's self-esteem and that getting in the way. But as I'm thinking about it in the moment as you're talking, I'm also thinking about adding to that that likelihood to deflect, you know, that it, it, if we go with the game idea, the inner game idea, Rory, it's like when somebody passes me the ball on the field, if on top of having to think about how am I going to respond to that? You know, am I checking my shoulder or, you know, what am I doing here?
01:37:57
Speaker
That if I'm also thinking what a coach told me to do, then, you know, that I've made that the inner game is harder. But if I have a likelihood to deflect that when I i don't know, i you know, I open my hips and I turn right into the opposition as I receive that ball, for example, maybe that wasn't the thing that I was supposed to do. And then I blame someone else.
01:38:24
Speaker
Well, you never should have passed me the ball. It's almost like I'm just not even willing to play the game. I'm not willing to go through those steps to learn from my mistakes.
01:38:35
Speaker
And now I'm to sort of reiterate, I happen to be a big fan of the thinking, the basic idea of the inner game. But I also, you know, I have a lot of growth that I have to do as a coach, a lot of development, but I,
01:38:55
Speaker
really struggle to help players get past a, that deflection sort of thing. I really, i i try to talk a lot about all of the opportunity for growth and, but I think it always, and when I'm talking to players, it always comes down to, but you have to do the work.
01:39:17
Speaker
And as soon as they start saying, oh, well, the ref this or the whatever, ah that for what it's worth, the the image, the analogy that I use a lot of times, specifically when players complain about the ref is, I'll say, the ref is like the weather.
01:39:34
Speaker
You're not going to change the weather. You just have to deal with it. And I think still, you know, certain players will come around to deflecting. They want to avoid playing that inner game altogether.
01:39:47
Speaker
And certain players, because of the home environment or because of something, they they take on that responsibility. And as a result, they often grow and the other players don't.
01:39:59
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's what I was going to say is, you know, for for a multitude of reasons, there seems to be a a big variation between, you know, what level of responsibility certain players will take.
01:40:12
Speaker
And it it's interesting, it manifests itself during the game. So if things aren't going well during the game, you know, you have some players who, um you know, they get very emotional or they start, you know, blaming other people or other things or the refs.
01:40:25
Speaker
And then you have other players who just kind of kind of dig in and and and try to work harder. ah And, you know, those are the players that tend to be more successful as as you get get older because, you know, like I said before, the the the sort of gap in the talent changes. So I see it at the younger ages, the the best player tends to be head and shoulders better. And then as you get older, especially as you get into upper level type type teams, the best player might be the best player, but it's not by a mile or anything like that. And so, you know, the the level of competition and sort of what they're used to kind of
01:41:03
Speaker
that that That window kind of closes a bit. um And so how do they deal with that from just their attitude and responsibility and accountability? It makes a huge difference.
01:41:15
Speaker
100%. Okay, Rory, I've kept you here for a long time and I have really appreciated it. I really... enjoyed our first conversation and was, I felt fortunate that you agreed to speak with me and I was happy that you agreed to come back today. So first and foremost, I want to say thank you, but then also you mentioned the YouTube channel.
01:41:39
Speaker
So where should we send people if they want to learn more, whether it's about you, follow you, watch your videos, whatever else. Yeah, no, Coach Rory Soccer on YouTube is where you'll find everything. I've had ah a few months of not posting just because I've been so busy with the two teams and and my my my day job. ah But I am i am planning on this summer starting to get some more videos out. And most of that stuff is coaching stuff. But there are a few videos discussing the things that we we talked about today. um And you know then there's some links to some other podcasts I've been on there as well. But i yeah I appreciate you having me on. I mean, these, as I said, these are conversations that I, the more people can get exposed to these types of discussions, the the bigger the education can get. And that's really the only thing that will change is if the vast majority of people call for it and it there becomes a political sort of upheaving to do so because otherwise it it it it won't change. But yeah, no, I always enjoy coming on.
01:42:41
Speaker
Well, thank you, Rory. I appreciate you being here today.