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Charles Payne
811 Plays1 year ago
Charles Payne is a Madison transplant, a certified teacher, and self-taught social artist, originally from Michigan. Payne is a Shop One Educator/Artist Residency Finalist and a 2022 TMT New Play Development Playwright. Their play ‘Da Classroom Ain’t Enuf’ was an American Players Theatre New Voices: Creating the Classics of Tomorrow semi-finalist and a Wisconsin Wrights 2022 New Play Development project finalist.
Payne is an Isthmus contributor, a Madison Magazine contributor and the Arts + Literature Lab’s inaugural ALL Originals Prize winner.
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Transcript
Introduction to Charles Payne
00:00:01
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host Ken Volante. Editor and producer Peter Bauer.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hey everybody, this is Ken Volante, and I'm really excited to have Charles Payne on the episode of Playwright, educator presently in residency in Madison, Wisconsin. We're gonna get into Charles' backstory a bit, but first of all, before talking further, Charles, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Super, super excited to be here.
00:00:43
Speaker
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on the program and Madison itself is a place near and dear to my heart. I worked there for the teacher's union for about a decade and spent some time, about 12 years total in Wisconsin.
00:01:05
Speaker
And so I know the place where you are and you're doing some work right now, but let's jump into this bit right now in Madison and your residency. Can you
Water Advocacy and Challenges
00:01:18
Speaker
let folks know what you're up to with that and what the residency is about?
00:01:23
Speaker
Yeah, I'm super, super lucky to be the second Madison Metropolitan Sewer District artist and educator in residence. And what I'm hoping to do is to lead six to 10 students through a water advocacy curriculum where they end up telling a speech about why water advocacy is so important and why we need to be respecting water more.
00:01:50
Speaker
which is super exciting for me. They call these catalytic projects. Unfortunately, as you probably have read in the news, there's no more clean rainwater. You know what I'm saying? All the water we have on Earth right now is all the water we'll ever have. So if we continue to not treat it with respect, it's going to make it harder and harder for people to survive because we're not going to have quality water to be able to drink.
00:02:18
Speaker
Yeah, well, and I wanted to, I mean, I know I asked a bigger question, but I just wanted to stop there and just mention, you know, your comments, just pause to consider, you know, what you're talking about. And I'd seen a few of, I don't know if there were slides of some of the work you had done related to this, which was on the website. And it was very, it was very inviting. And I was excited to see that. And I'm like, well, yeah, we're talking about a lot of things right now with what's on Earth.
00:02:45
Speaker
But just stop pause with with with water. What do you what do you find within that experience? What did the students say about this you pointing this out and say hey, this isn't this doesn't come from nowhere What what are students? What's their interaction with it? So it was super interesting I did a similar project for my full-time job with students last summer and The one thing that they went out to do is they checked all of the Madison parks to see if there was working running water and
00:03:15
Speaker
and they realized that water that we tell everyone is free wasn't working at those fountains.
00:03:21
Speaker
And they also were able to point out things like the water's not working at the fountains and we have no shade at the bus stop for when we're waiting for the bus. The only way that I can get water is if I pay $2 from Walgreens to get water. So seeing how access to fresh, clean drinking water is difficult for people in their neighborhood, I think it really woke them up to
00:03:48
Speaker
things in their community that they need to make sure that they're advocating for that get fixed so that people can get to it outside of themselves or outside of themselves if they have access to water in their home thinking about everyone you know everyone who needs to get to water and making sure that it's there yeah
00:04:08
Speaker
And one of the things I wanted to do to correct my comments and saying to about, you know, maybe assuming that the water is good, but that might not even be the case with in some communities and some neighborhoods that would be underserved. So it's not, you know, it's not necessarily assumption that you would take it for granted. But as we do as a culture or as we do as a culture, we have to say,
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah,
Water Crises in the U.S.
00:04:33
Speaker
I appreciate advocacy around it. It's just Madison's really lucky because we have an aquifer I'm from Michigan. So I grew up and played summer ball in Flint So I've seen the devastation in Flint So I know that I'm in an environment where we're lucky to have an aquifer It is easy. We have a pretty much easy access to get the clean water, but I know that's not true for everyone
00:04:56
Speaker
So especially with what happened in Flint, if you haven't heard about Flint, please Google it. It also happened at Jackson, Mississippi as well. They were having a crisis as well that I don't know if it made national news or not.
00:05:09
Speaker
Yeah, well, and I know many of the indigenous communities have water access, deprivation, and quality of water on the reservations as well. It's exciting for me to bump into you and then see that work online and me being tuned in with
00:05:28
Speaker
education and you're right in there and doing that work. I really appreciate that. Tell me about
Journey in Playwriting
00:05:35
Speaker
Charles, tell me about the the classroom ain't enough. I had seen that some performance down in Asheville, North Carolina and a choreo poem. Can you tell us about tell us about this work and
00:05:57
Speaker
and tell folks about what a Quarry of poem is, if you could.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, so The Class Remain Enough is a play. I was inspired to apply for a New Voices, New Classes of Tomorrow Award with the American Players Theater, which I'm a huge fan of. It's in like spring green. It's an outdoor theater. It's beautiful. It's a great place to be. And I would love to see my work on that stage. So I wrote 10 pages for them. And I made it to become a semifinalist.
00:06:32
Speaker
They decided to go in a different direction. I submitted it again to another competition with Ford Theater Company in Madison. And they also made me a finalist, but they decided not to go with it. They said it'd be too difficult to put on. And I was lucky enough that this small theater in Asheville, North Carolina that only does new plays and has the play development program said they would take on my work.
00:07:01
Speaker
And then they applied for a grant and they got it. We were lucky enough to workshop the play at Clemson University for a week. And we were able to do a reading at magnetic and at Clemson, which was a great summer for me, where I got to work with four equity actors all reading my work.
00:07:20
Speaker
And then they did a more fuller production in Asheville this year. And I got to see the fruits of my labor, as they say. Because I got to see the full production with four different actors and with the full set and the music and everything. It was like a dream scenario coming true for me. So if you don't know,
Understanding Choreopoem
00:07:44
Speaker
A choreopoem is a form of dramatic expression that combines poetry, dance, music, and song. It was a term that was coined in 1975 by one of my favorite black writers. And they wrote the play for colored girls who have considered suicide when the rainbow isn't enough. And I've spelled enough the same way as it's spelled for this play to pay homage to the fact that I love for colored girls who considered suicide when the rainbow isn't enough.
00:08:15
Speaker
And it's my play, the way it's different is one. It's stories from me teaching, poetry from me living, all combined together interspersed with music and movement.
00:08:28
Speaker
And it just was a lot, it was a lot of fun to see. Really fast moving, a lot of changing of scenes, really great music. Sitting in the audience and hearing the audience sing along was like huge for me. So it was just, it's just a different, it's just a different form that you don't often get to see, but it turned out so well. I was so proud of what Katie put together.
00:08:52
Speaker
Yeah, seeing it developed in that way as the creator, you know, I'm just asking you as the creator, you know, this comes out of your head and then you're watching it, what it becomes, it feels like that kind of thing that artists talk about. It's like out in the world now and it's on its own and looking back at me, right? Yeah, so I've been lucky enough because I was a slam poet at first.
00:09:17
Speaker
And I traveled to some national competitions and I knew that my work would travel well. But seeing it like really like connect with people from North Carolina.
00:09:29
Speaker
a place that I've only been to once for a poetry competition, which has a different way of life than Michigan. But seeing them be able to connect to my words gave me a lot more confidence in what I'm writing and what I'm doing and moving forward to continue my journey as hopefully being a part-time artist at some point and not someone who just does it whenever he gets a chance.
00:09:52
Speaker
Yeah,
Becoming an Artist
00:09:53
Speaker
it takes some courage and I do appreciate the insight of your reaction and seeing that come to life. We're talking about you as a creator.
00:10:10
Speaker
And you've done different, different types of things. But as a creator, was there a moment where you said, I'm an artist or somebody called you an artist and all of a sudden you were or a creator, whatever kind of word you want to put towards that? Was there a moment where you're like, you know, shit, this is this is this is who I am. Yeah, I think
00:10:35
Speaker
Things really shifted for me in high school. I did a lot of art for extra credit, but I never really did it for me. And my teacher asked me for a senior composition to put together a presentation, a personal statement of myself. And the only form I could think about doing that in it was with poetry. And when I finished that piece, I had moved people to tears.
00:11:05
Speaker
Like, and they were like, and that's when I realized, okay, I'm really good at something, you know what I'm saying? Like to the point where I can, where I can change emotion. So this should be something that I look into deeper.
00:11:17
Speaker
And since I saw that moment, I've always been looking into writing. I've had a few other incidents where I realized there might be a talent there, but I wasn't really paying attention to it. I got a, what was it? The Newbell Award in elementary, where everyone turns in the story and they get picked up. That happened to me in fifth grade. But I just thought it was because I was the only one who did the assignment. I didn't think it was because I was good.
00:11:46
Speaker
Yeah, but it was what's going on in your head. In middle school, I wrote a couple of, I mean, we wrote a couple of like plays using other people's work and putting it together. Because we wanted to celebrate hip hop. So we did that when I was really, and that was like, that was really great. And people loved that play. But I think like, when I saw that my work could like, move people to tears, I think that's when it was like, okay, like if it's bringing out this emotion, then we're connecting on a deeper level.
00:12:16
Speaker
And I am, for me, for me it feels like I'm helping people have empathy and move past their narcissistic tendencies and seeing that we're in this all together. And I think that's always been my passion is to build community.
00:12:34
Speaker
It's a good instinct. I tell you, since you're talking a lot of artists on the show, I think my head sometimes would think about, you know, like movement in one way and poetry in another way and just kind of the way you're describing it. I've begun to appreciate it so much.
00:12:53
Speaker
movement and body movement. I like dance. When I was a kid, I grew up in the city, so I was the white boy breakdancer at 12 for the backup. So I grew up around it, but I never kind of fit into my head how important it was to me. I don't know, you live a certain way and maybe it's culturally not around.
00:13:16
Speaker
Talking a lot of artists and talking about poetry and movement and other forms has helped me understand the arts better because my body wants to move and my brain moves quickly.
00:13:31
Speaker
So you can do all these type of things. As far as the audience really having that, it does a powerful thing that you were saying because I think some of us whenever we feel like more than ourselves or people are really paying attention or they're responding to us physically, you can see it. It's such a powerful thing and it was really exciting to hear about that for you.
00:13:57
Speaker
and that kind of being a catalyst of your art. Talking about your role as an educator, I've had conversations, the best conversations I've had is understanding the integrations of the art of education or how creative kids are and teachers are and that integration of art and education. For your perspective,
00:14:26
Speaker
in how you teach.
00:14:31
Speaker
how do you look at the arts within that? Is it all part of the arts or you look, you know, how do you approach it creatively, the teacher?
Education as Art
00:14:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I approach it as art. And the way that I approach it as art is I want to make it about the students and not about me and not about the standard. Like I wanted to connect to their personal story, their personal being, their personal interest. And I'm always trying to meet them where they are.
00:14:57
Speaker
I'm not currently working as a teacher anymore. I've been doing more education outside of the classroom. But I've always believed that a child only educated in school is an uneducated child. So there needs to be learning happening outside of the classroom. And that's something that I am really passionate about providing.
00:15:17
Speaker
And if it's happening outside of the classroom, it has to be self-driven. It has to be something that they have interest in. And then it's my job to provide them with support so that they can continue to look into it deeper and deeper so they have a more holistic education. And I wish more people saw that as the case and work with our young people outside of school more to provide that additional education that's needed. But since there's not, I try my best to catch as many students as I can.
00:15:47
Speaker
Yeah, there's some, I mean, it's like a way, you know, it's not like the way of education, but like a way of education. I work with a lot of teaching professionals in the representative capacity. And one of the biggest things that I'm sensitive to not in the classroom myself is that the power to instruct, the power to be creative, the power to
00:16:15
Speaker
in time to reach that kid in the way that you as a smart teacher know how to, there's too many barriers. I talk to teachers a lot of times and they're just like,
00:16:25
Speaker
If we're really supposed to be doing this, this is how you do it. And there's forces that steer folks away from it, leading to professional, you know, professional frustration. So, you know, I find that kind of to be a back and forth dynamic. All right, Charles, I want to hit you with one of the big ones. We're talking about, you know, art as part of your identity. What is art? What is art for you?
00:16:49
Speaker
For me, I think art is a true insight that reveals itself in a way that hopefully bypasses my consciousness and less conscious assumptions. I hope it moves me past my defenses, my filters, and my biases. So in short, when I think of art, I think it is my story.
Art and Personal Stories
00:17:09
Speaker
I love that. I love stories, too. Charles, what's the role of art? So what's it supposed to do?
00:17:19
Speaker
And we're talking here July, 2023. Does it have to do something different now than it's done before, or its role? I don't think it does have to do anything different. I think the role of art is to communicate what's happening in the world on a level that's beyond, of course, self-consciousness and an ego-driven narcissism. So in short, I have always thought the role of art is to tell my story fairly and unabashedly.
00:17:49
Speaker
not like a Texas history textbook, but tell my story truthfully. And I think that humanity is what makes art so important. And if you look back, like you look at the Black Panthers movement and their propaganda and the fact that they've had art, there's always been art for the people to express themselves, to have connection to, even if they didn't know what they were doing was art.
00:18:15
Speaker
I think for me, just my perspective on Black Panthers and also providing food early on to help kids in the city, but the arts. And I think it was a group there that was for the people and was such a threat because they were addressing those needs of food and
00:18:40
Speaker
Other you know the other things beyond beyond the system because I can say I can say for myself. I still remain in puzzlement as to the Lack that my education was right. Yeah, you know as a I graduated 1990 white suburb school you know and and I'm like well as I've done more shows with indigenous guests I've gone back and I'm like
00:19:09
Speaker
How is it that I had like a week of indigenous history or something? Like as a student? I only remember the Chief Joseph quote, I will fight no more forever. I got like tattooed on my leg because that was the only thing we got.
00:19:28
Speaker
That's what I was taught. I visited Joseph last month. Well, here's the point on education, right? We're talking about this right now. The Nez Perce people and Chief Joseph, yes, but the paucity of the education just astounds me. And here's the biggest part for me as an artist, you as a lifelong learner, the curiosity.
00:19:50
Speaker
I hold that is that when you're done with high school and no nothing against anybody But when you don't with high school, you're done with you being educated in that setting. Yeah There's gonna be some some gaps that'll make it difficult for you understand the world and I guess some Do you see?
00:20:15
Speaker
within that do you i'm just not to read into you but that the you doing the stuff with the water yeah and that type of curriculum um that's where it is kind of isn't it
Art as a Tool for Climate Advocacy
00:20:30
Speaker
I mean, I think it has a lot to do with, you know, self-motivation and wanting to have your own interest that you want to learn. I think the reason why I was turned on to like doing the water curriculum is because we also put on free story slam events all throughout Madison, me and a couple of my friends. And we came across this idea that if you do personal climate stories, people will take global warming a lot more serious. So, and when it's personal,
00:20:59
Speaker
I think it really helps people connect. And I tell a really brave story about when I was living in Madison, I think it was like the first day we were in the house, Madison flooded and we lost everything that we owned. And it's because there's a large target that's using more water than needs to be used by anybody, like right above us that all that water had to go somewhere. And it came out and it like,
00:21:26
Speaker
destroyed my entire house. But those personal climate stories like rain and how it impacts people with having floods and people talking about it, I think it makes the issue more real for people. We had all that water travel. I'm going to get these leaves up so that our streets don't flood anymore because I know what that could lead to.
00:21:46
Speaker
So I think that's really important, you know, like you have to be able to connect with your story, right? You have to be able to tell it, then hopefully you can move people to like do things a little bit differently so that we can have a better environment for all. Yeah. Wow. That's a, that's an intense, tense experience. I mean, right off the bat, I mean, that's, that's courage to, to, to move through that. I was getting it in, in, in talking before when we were talking about Flint and talking about, you know,
00:22:16
Speaker
whole story, you know, with resources, corporate power and things like that, is the term we're referring to as environmental racism, where the decisions, the social policy impact, decisions that impact who suffers the consequences of the target. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, also who's allowed to enjoy nature?
00:22:44
Speaker
you gotta think about like birding while black or hiking, you know, like, you know, who's allowed to be a part of the recreation part of nature. And there's not a lot of people who look like me that are doing recreation when it comes to being out in nature, because it's not been a safe environment for us to participate.
00:23:05
Speaker
So, you know, I don't consider myself someone who's fighting environmental racism.
Social Artist and Advocacy
00:23:11
Speaker
I see myself more as a social artist, which is someone who aims to use their creative skills to spark change. So I'm hoping, you know, it's great that they're doing this project on water, but I'm hoping these skills that these students learn for advocacy, they can take and apply to their life.
00:23:28
Speaker
So if another issue comes up, even if it is not about water, they have the skill set to be able to take the steps that they need to move forward. Right. In addition to the things we talked about with regards to writing, the other things that you're working on developing or seeing where you move towards as far as creatively what story coming up that you could refer to?
00:23:56
Speaker
So I usually do The Moth, which is a national podcast. I hate to get props too, because I have some issues with The Moth. But I normally do story slams like that to freshen my skills. I've been really lucky to be able to write essays for the local newspaper, which is the Ithmus. They published four of my essays. Really getting into essay writing.
00:24:24
Speaker
And I've also done like, there was a Madison Story Slam company that's recorded a couple of my stories. Now that I'm realizing that I don't own the rights to those recordings, I try not to do events that have recordings. And I try to put on events where we don't record the storytellers so they can be vulnerable and control the fact that it's not being played over and over again.
00:24:50
Speaker
But yeah, I'm always trying to write stories. My goal is to eventually write a book or get into an adult MFA program so that I can put together a manuscript. That's where I'm always trying to get to with everything that I create. I'm
Storytelling Projects and Ambitions
00:25:08
Speaker
trying to find another way to tell my story.
00:25:13
Speaker
Thank you for the poetry. The podcast recently, I've had a lot of poets, and I've been doing it for four years. I haven't looked back towards the beginning, and I had two or three poets early on. And just for me, looking back, I've always loved poetry.
00:25:32
Speaker
I've been interested in many things and I've lived long enough where it kind of comes back in and it's exciting. But one thing I love about poetry is kind of the crystallization of meanings. It could be fun, but doing it well, like getting that meaning
00:25:53
Speaker
in there and doing it as a trick. When it's done well, it's such a beautiful process. And it's like, ah, there it is. The essence, it feels like. I interviewed a poet from Chicago, Avery Young, once. And I asked him, why is there something rather than nothing? He said, well, all I know is it's got to have the thump.
00:26:24
Speaker
And I said amen to that. Charles, I gotta hit you though with the big question that you can answer how you will. Why is there something rather than nothing?
00:26:42
Speaker
end up here. What is some reason? I believe in that stuff. There is something there rather than nothing because people often live their lives vicariously through something.
00:26:56
Speaker
you talked about earlier, like breakdancing meant a lot to you, listening to this hip hop, you're vicariously living through it. It might be someone's children, it might be their job, it could be other forms of art, but evidently those folks' energy must go somewhere, right? Every person, sometimes even stifle people within them have the potential to make art.
00:27:20
Speaker
Now we may not call it art. I think break dancing is art, but you might not call break dancing art. You might not call like being a part of the, you know, the growing hip hop scene as being a part of art, but you know, it's the essence, you know what I'm saying? Like whatever form it takes, it's the thing that we do that reveals who we are, you know? Even if we have no idea, that's what's really happening. Like I don't think people when they were making hip hop, they knew it was going to be so transformative.
00:27:49
Speaker
for their community. It sounds like when hip-hop started, I only know this because I've read a lot of Tracy Rose and I've seen her speak. It sounds like they just weren't allowed to go into clubs, so they decided to set up block parties by stealing electricity. That doesn't sound like art, but it is because it's what we do that reveals who we are. Hip-hop has defined that area of New York.
00:28:15
Speaker
for so long. Every book I read as a kid when I was trying to find diverse books was set in Harlem. I thought Harlem was the most beautiful place. I thought the streets were paved with gold. I remember I took an eighth grade trip to New York and they showed me Harlem, and I was like, dirtiest place I've ever seen. It was nothing like the romanticism in the books that Harlem was explained as.
00:28:42
Speaker
Well, it's seen different phases too. I mean, you think of the Harlem Renaissance and different phases, but it does create these romantic notions that may exist there. But no,
Hip-hop and Community Building
00:28:54
Speaker
I can even feel the gritty, you know, of how like on the hip, I love seeing the old clips of DJ Cool Herc and it'd be like, you know, just the back of that like station wagon or the wagon and those speakers going through and it's like,
00:29:10
Speaker
You know, it's like hey, they're not gonna let us in we're not gonna be go here. We got the disco records Like it is like there's some you know, you know, I know it's just it just felt it felt so good to to see that um It's it's it's really great chat with your Charles Charles. Tell can you tell the listeners like um or in in both in the terms of kind of finding your coming in contact with but also
00:29:39
Speaker
locally for folks, many friends, some listeners too, friends and listeners in Madison if there's some spots you get to with your poetry. I would
Connecting with Charles Payne
00:29:52
Speaker
say the easiest way to connect with me is to find me on Instagram. Sadly, my handle is at CEP34.
00:30:02
Speaker
In the Instagram, there's a link tree in my bio that links to a lot of my work. And that's usually where I keep, whenever I have additional money, which I don't have now, I usually make a link tree and it has like the work that's been published by me so people can see it and read it if they want to.
00:30:20
Speaker
There's also a chat book on there. If you're in Madison, please follow Mad City Story Slam. Not Madison Story Slam, Mad City Story Slam. And it's a collective of me and two really close friends. We do shows throughout the city. Actually, my friends are helping me do a reading of my play in Madison on August 26.
00:30:42
Speaker
But we post everything on that site about what that we're doing when it comes to programmatically, if there's something you want to see. And we've done so many different programs. I think we put on over 20 different story slams and events. So there was a time where I had this pool to do an event called Music and Lyrics, where we would have a poet and a musician be the features and have an open mic surrounding it. So we do events like that all the time.
00:31:12
Speaker
Yeah. And if you want to read my work in Ithmus, just Google Charles Paine Ithmus. If you get a conservative newscaster, that's not me. So, but if this is the Ithmus, it's a free paper. I'm a contributor. It should come up that Charles Paine is a contributor. And there's four essays, I believe, that are up there that you can find. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks.
00:31:37
Speaker
uh... really enjoyed reading now and i live in massa wisconsin this miss for you know the local news and that they had some great writers and they think they pop in some
00:31:47
Speaker
articles catching up with authors that were around a while ago. It was smart, at least when I was reading. It was a smart paper, but I used to work right there on Williamson Street, Willie Street over that way. I picked that up on my lunch breaks doing my union works. So I'm very glad to hear not only the
00:32:13
Speaker
that you are in Madison and doing this work, but the type of work that you described, it's exciting to me because this is where hope is, where hope is, this is where knowledge is, at least for me. And so I really appreciate that. And just asking listeners, check out Charles Payne and
00:32:37
Speaker
You're writing and if you're local and gosh now Charles, I feel I got to get out there to Madison That's a whole other thing. But if you're local folks, make sure you look around support a poetry Spoke to support the arts in the great city of Madison and Charles great pleasure to talk to you and thank you for what you do
00:33:00
Speaker
Yeah, thank you for your time and thank you for, you know, making a time capsule. I'm excited to look back at some of your older work and hear what those poets had to say. And yeah, I'm just glad you're doing this. This is amazing. Thank you. I'll make one further comment to one of the early episodes I did, and I say this a great friend of mine. I knew him as BK, as a Bunkang Tuan, a Southeast Asian immigrant.
00:33:28
Speaker
And I studied literature with Bukhong at the University of Massachusetts. We became fast friends from different kind of backgrounds. Absolutely incredible poetry of the diaspora and kind of music and a cadence of music.
00:33:50
Speaker
uh so it was one of the early episodes that I did and like I said looking back um just talking to poetry in particular and um I feel that the intimacy of poetry in the sense of somebody being like like look at this like for me the best you know it's like hey look at this didn't you know this and it's right in there it it uh it helps because in trying to understand things sometimes you could read a thousand pages and
00:34:17
Speaker
Mm-hmm. That little kernel that you do, Charles, that other people do might be the shortcut to get where you need to be. Great chat with you, and thanks for coming on to the program. All right. You have a wonderful day. Take care. This is something rather than nothing.