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S3E6 Jess Ann Kirby
425 Plays8 months ago
Thanks for listening to our episode with Jess Ann Kirby.
Follow Meredith on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/meredith-farley/
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Email Meredith: [email protected]
We loved talking to Jess.
Stay in touch with her here:
Her great substack - https://jessannkirby.substack.com/
Jess’ blog - https://www.jessannkirby.com/
Jess’ instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jessannkirby/?hl=en
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Features
00:00:04
Speaker
Hey guys, welcome to Content People. I'm your host Meredith Farley.
00:00:16
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Cause I'm hoping my dogs are quiet. Don't worry about them at all. There's this great feature called studio sound that will up the sound quality. Okay. Um's and ah's we can like with one button we can automatically delete, which is amazing. Wow. Yeah. Cause that is a real issue for me.
00:00:37
Speaker
Same. No, it's magic button. And if at any point you think, oh, could I say that again or let's go back or could you cut it? You can just talk totally normally. It's so bad at it. Okay. Great.
Meet Jess Kirby: Writer and Content Creator
00:00:49
Speaker
All right. So Jess, I am so excited to talk to you today. I've been a big reader of yours for a while. For anyone coming to this interview who doesn't know you, could you say a little bit about who you are and what you do?
00:01:02
Speaker
Sure. My name is Jess Kirby. I live in Vermont. I actually moved here fairly recently from Rhode Island.
00:01:12
Speaker
I had a baby three years ago, which was a big kind of life altering experience for me, as one would probably expect. But I also wasn't planning on having children, so I feel like I'm still adjusting to that role. And so I am a writer and a content creator. I really don't like using the term influencer. I guess you could probably say that's what I've done for a long time, but I'm
00:01:40
Speaker
I'm trying to shift out of that, which I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about. And I have written a blog, jessankerby.com for 10 years now and have been working on Instagram probably for almost that long as well. And then I recently launched a sub-stack. So that's where I'm at right now.
00:02:04
Speaker
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you about all of that. I have been a reader of yours for a long time, and I know I said this when we first chatted, but since I'm Boston-based, a New England blogger was, it was so nice to, it's always so nice to read your content. What drew you to content creation in the first
From Corporate to Content Creation
00:02:24
Speaker
instance? So I studied journalism and women's studies in college, and I got a job in New York City right after I graduated.
00:02:33
Speaker
actually doing diversity and inclusion consulting and I did that for about five or six years and corporate work was just not for me and I was really burnt out on it. I was getting horrible migraines. I was just really not happy with my work situation at all and just couldn't figure out a way to get
00:02:54
Speaker
to move to something else and so I started a blog as a hobby just to do something fun. I had always wanted to work in fashion so I thought that maybe building up a blog could help me get a job in fashion which nobody in fashion cared that I had a blog but it was just so fun and
00:03:15
Speaker
exciting was at a time when blogs were just not what it is today. There wasn't as many people doing it. And it just started to gain traction. I remember like hearing from those first few brands of wanting to send me something or wanting to work together and not for money, but just it was so fun to get that opportunity to work in that way and take pictures and come up with outfit ideas. And I did that and my job for around two or three years before I quit my
00:03:45
Speaker
job and started doing it full time. And that's not to say that I was making an income that could sustain myself. That took five years. I really struggled for a while, but I just felt like I couldn't do my old job anymore. And so I just decided to go all in and see what happened. Wow. That's really interesting. For some reason, that's not the answer that I expected and I don't know what I was expecting.
Trends vs. Passion in Content Creation
00:04:10
Speaker
I also as a journalism major, I feel like it drew me to content creation in a different way, but there's so much you're saying I want to dig into a little. I think that one thing I'm cognizant of now is, I don't know if you see them, maybe I'm just in the algorithm for it, but there are so many Instagram reels or whatever platform you go on,
00:04:32
Speaker
There's people telling you how to be successful on that platform. And yes, I see those too. Yeah. And it's interesting because it creates creators who are maybe not creating from a place of, I love doing this. How can I make this work for me? And instead from a place of, I was told that this framework is going to give me a faceless Instagram account that makes me six figures a month.
00:04:58
Speaker
Well, I think one thing I'm responding to and what you're saying as well is that it came from a very creative place in you and a desire to create this content which
00:05:11
Speaker
I think you can really tell like your content has so much integrity. One thing I would say to respond to what you're saying is I think that the stakes and the climate were so different back then. Nobody was making money doing it. Now you ask young kids what they wanna do and I don't remember what the percentage is but I'm always shocked to see how many say they wanna be a content creator because it looks so sexy and glamorous and like you can make all this money. And a lot of it is smoke and mirrors.
00:05:40
Speaker
I don't know what the actual stats are and how many people make a living doing content creation, but when I was doing it, that's not why I was doing it. I just, I needed a creative outlet and I think the nature of social media in general has changed.
00:05:57
Speaker
Even people who started doing it out of a passion, the algorithms don't really let you do that anymore because you have to follow certain formulas in order for your content to be seen. And even then, there's no guarantee. So I think it's muddy the waters in how people can show up on social media and share their work. Yes. Are there any examples that come to mind for people who are listening
00:06:23
Speaker
That you could give just from a general perspective just look at the content on Instagram. Everything is a trend right if you look at Reels or things that go viral. It's typically like something that built on something else It's like just a bunch of the same stuff and then everybody copies whatever that formula is in their own
00:06:45
Speaker
quote unquote own way so that their content is also seen. It's no different than like how there's trending audio, right? It's like everybody has to use the same audio in order for their content to be seen. So it might be a little different, but everybody's using the same song, you know? It becomes this like just sea of sameness.
00:07:05
Speaker
And I've seen that a lot in the fashion and beauty space. And a lot of that is also driven by capitalism and money, right?
Hyper-Consumerism and Social Media
00:07:13
Speaker
Because the brands are paying the influencers to post about certain things. But you look at some of the things that have gotten so big and so popular.
00:07:22
Speaker
Stanley cups. Yeah. Are they really that great? It's a cup for water just I think what has turned me off of social media so much is this there was a fantastic article on sub stack that I can send you the link to if anyone wants to read it about Hyper consumerism around the Stanley cup
00:07:44
Speaker
Was it Clara's? Yes. I love her. She was actually on this show. I read it. Oh, she was? Yes. She's such a great writer. I recently found her content on Substack, but I just thought she made so many great points about just this hyper consumerism that's happening now on social media. And in a lot of ways, I think that is what social media is for now. It's for buying and selling. Yeah. Have you heard of Casey Lewis's After School Substack?
00:08:15
Speaker
No, I just started reading it and she had an interesting one I read over the weekend where it was analyzing the Stanley cup trend too. And stories about kids being bullied because they got a knockoff Stanley cup and the kind of analyzing the Christmas gift hall, Tik TOK trend tend to go viral.
00:08:43
Speaker
And no, I really appreciate everything you're saying about social. And there's two things I want to ask. One, to go back a little bit, when you first started blogging, you were like, this corporate job is not
Career Change Reactions
00:09:00
Speaker
for me. I really want to try my hand at this. It's really feeding my creativity and could lead to cool things.
00:09:07
Speaker
I think there wasn't an understanding so much in the mainstream 10 years ago as to what a content creator is or was. Yeah. What kind of reaction did you get from friends and family? Were people confused? Were they judgmental? Were they supportive? I think my parents were worried, as your parents would be. Like, why are you leaving this corporate job with health insurance and a paycheck?
00:09:32
Speaker
I think most people were just curious, and to be honest with you, I still feel like I encounter a lot of people who have no idea what I do. Really? Yeah. I think that those of us who are in the business think that other people know more than they do about how this business works.
00:09:49
Speaker
because even most of my friends, and maybe it's because I live in Vermont, but most of my friends don't really understand my job and what I do and how it works. That's interesting. I just, Lisa Belmonte.
00:10:02
Speaker
was on this podcast and she and I afterwards, she asked me to do a guest blog post on her sub stack and she asked me to write about how content creators make money, how social outreach teams work in hooks and things. It's funny you say that because I was like, Lisa, are you sure? Isn't this, doesn't everyone know this? And she was like, no Meredith, like people do not know, not everyone knows what an affiliate link is. And it was a good reminder of exactly what you're saying.
00:10:27
Speaker
And it's also very confusing because there's still a major lack of transparency and people talking about how they're getting paid and how they're making money. And I'm not saying that I'm innocent in that either. I think some of it is just, we forget. You're just doing what you're doing and going about your day. But it's interesting because I was reading a blogger's sub stack the other day and she was like, this is not a place for sponsored content.
00:10:54
Speaker
And this is not sponsored by J. Crew, but I love this jacket. But then three paragraphs later, she talked about how she was working with J. Crew on Instagram. So it's okay. Maybe they're not directly sponsoring your sub stack, but they're paying you. So I think there's like this, there's a lot of gray area. And so I think a lot of people don't understand
00:11:15
Speaker
when it comes to gifting and getting paid by brands. And yeah, there's a sponsored post and that's one obvious way, but there's all these other little pieces. And that's what I really like about Substack is that you can be so clear and just say, I'm going to charge you this much money and I'm not taking any money from brands. And so you know that what I'm saying is coming from a true and real place. Yes. And I remember when we first talked, you said something that I thought was really insightful.
00:11:44
Speaker
to the effect of when we get content for free, so say someone has a sub-stack with no paywall or it's just on Instagram or TikTok, we're not actually getting it for free from content creators who are being paid. It's just the ads are less obvious to us. So could you talk a little bit about your move to sub-stack? So you built up your blog for over 10 years and you've made the leap to move over to sub-stack. How are you finding it? What made you do it?
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah, it's been a long time coming and I've just been in this weird transitional phase for the last couple of years, especially since I had a child and just felt so disconnected from my personal values and then like how I was making money and making a living. And the two just felt like they kept getting farther and farther apart, but I couldn't figure out how to bring them back together.
00:12:42
Speaker
And I've also felt, I wouldn't say, yeah, I guess I would say a pull to be a little more private. I started to feel like I was so extremely online on social media.
00:12:57
Speaker
and had some weird stuff happen with my daughter and just other things where I just felt like I was lacking a sense of privacy that was really just giving me anxiety and making me uncomfortable. But I still wanted to be able to maintain a community and be able to write and share things that are important to me and connect with people. At the same time, I wanted to shift my blog content, so I'm actually gonna be rebranding my blog.
00:13:25
Speaker
soon. It's going to be called the New England Guide, so it's no longer going to be JessandKirby.com. It's going to be more content focused on New England, traveling, living here, lifestyle content. And then my sub-stack is going to be more of the personal essays and personal style and things that I've shared on my blog and on social media.
00:13:45
Speaker
And to me, Substack felt like the right place for the reasons that I stated before, which is that I want to be able to connect in a truly authentic way with my readers in no way influenced by brands.
00:14:00
Speaker
and the money I get from sponsorships. And it's a really scary position to put myself in because I've already taken a significant cut in revenue over the last few years as I've slowly walked away from more partnerships and paid collaborations.
00:14:18
Speaker
I also just came to a point where I felt that I didn't have a choice. I was so burnt out and exhausted from trying to keep up with this thing that no longer aligned with who I am. And I just had to draw a line in the sand and say, if you don't do it, you're, you have to do it now. And that's what I came to at the end of last year.
Aligning Work with Personal Values
00:14:42
Speaker
So I actually haven't turned on paid subscriptions yet, but I'm going to at the end of the month. So we'll see how that goes.
00:14:52
Speaker
Hey guys, interrupting this interview for 10 seconds to talk about Medbury. Medbury is a social media agency that I founded in 2023 and we produced this podcast. Our promise is pretty simple. We create social media strategies that really, really work.
00:15:07
Speaker
We offer of LinkedIn, Instagram, and newsletter management for founders, execs, entrepreneurs, public figures, and brands. Our clients often see significant results within just a few weeks of us working together. We're fun to work with and we'd love to help you. You can check out our website, sign up for our newsletter, or shoot us an email. Everything's in the show notes. Okay, back to the interview.
00:15:36
Speaker
When you say that, you felt as if your content or approach, basically your business model wasn't feeling aligned with your personal values and they were actually getting further and further apart. Could you talk about that a little bit? That's really interesting.
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah. So I mean, I would say maybe four years ago is when I really started to feel uncomfortable with the level of consumerism that was just part of the quote unquote influencer industry as a whole. And I just couldn't reconcile my own desire to reduce my own consumerism and being a more mindful consumer and reducing waste with
00:16:22
Speaker
the job I was doing. And I reasoned with myself a million different ways about everybody has a choice and I'm just giving them options. But at the end of the day, if you're an influencer, you're selling people stuff all the time. Even if they don't always buy stuff, that's what the whole industry is built upon, is selling things.
00:16:47
Speaker
We talked about this before the call, but I decided to do a year of buying nothing new, which has been a very interesting personal experiment and I'm only 23 days into it. But I needed to really challenge myself to examine my own relationship with
00:17:10
Speaker
consumption and consumerism. And I just, I didn't feel comfortable just continuing to do what I've been doing while doing this exercise with myself. So I just hit a point where I felt like I couldn't keep doing it. I'm so interested in your no buy here. I
00:17:32
Speaker
I did something similar. I still am. I've loosened up a little, but when I first started Medbury, my business, I felt like I can't be spending time or money or energy worrying about clothes right now. Yeah. And I think in the past, I love the idea of capsules. I loved a lot of your capsule content, but I
00:17:55
Speaker
I think something I always got wrong about it was I thought it had to be perfect before I could stop and then just wear the capsule. Me too. It's like a perfectionist thing. And deciding, nope, whatever I got, I'm going to curate something and that's it for a while, was so freeing and it felt really good. What has it been like for you?
A New Perspective on Consumerism
00:18:18
Speaker
Can you talk about it a little bit? I think it's just made me realize how much I used new stuff as a crutch to make me feel like, or get this little hit of dopamine. It never lasted that long, but just constantly chasing that. And I think I've been.
00:18:38
Speaker
Like I have to retrain my brain because I've been on social media for so long. And for so long, I got that dopamine hit from the likes and the comments and the followers. And then I moved away from that, but I still needed it.
00:18:52
Speaker
And then I shifted into getting new stuff and new beauty products. And it just becomes such a vicious cycle. And I think the thing too, with people who are in my industry is brands send you so much stuff.
00:19:09
Speaker
So even if you're not spending your own money, you're still getting new stuff all the time. And it becomes so overwhelming and so wasteful. It's like this just need for constant new things. And also obviously that's another money maker, right? Because you can constantly link to new stuff.
00:19:28
Speaker
and tell people about new things to buy. So for me, it's just been so interesting to examine my own consumption habits and patterns. And my no buy was specifically mostly around big purchases like home decor and furniture and clothing. But it has made me examine every single time I go to make a purchase. It's just so interesting how in tune I am now with
00:19:54
Speaker
buying things and how easy it is because of online shopping and your info is saved or you can do PayPal checkout to just buy stuff and you almost don't even think about it. And it's not always big purchases. It could be little things, but now I'm paying such close attention to it. And it's just, I wrote about in my first week, how we went to Home Depot.
00:20:18
Speaker
to get some things we needed for a project we're working on in the house. And I hadn't bought anything in a while. So I was literally looking around Home Depot, what can I buy? And in the store, I was like, oh my God, I'm in Home Depot and I'm trying to find something to buy because I just want to shop. So yeah. So much of what you're saying is really resonating with me. Also too, I didn't really ever put this together, but during the pandemic, I feel like is when I got like everybody
00:20:48
Speaker
really into skincare and beauty products and I needed the dopamine and the novelty and I hadn't really thought of it that way. It sounds almost like it's like meditation because you've put this parameter on yourself. You now have more of a response than a reaction when you're about to buy something and it's really
00:21:08
Speaker
enlightening for you around how you're reacting to consuming things. It's really shifted even how I do my skincare. I think my skin got really inflamed towards the end of the year because I was using too many products. So I pretty much stopped using everything. For the most part, I just use water to wash my face. I wear almost no makeup and I just use moisturizer and my skin is totally fine.
00:21:34
Speaker
It's like the Jessica Dafino. I don't know if you follow her. Yeah, I do. And I love her stuff. And to be honest with you, she's a big reason why I started really thinking about what I was putting on my skin and my relationship to skincare as well and beauty products.
00:21:50
Speaker
Is there some part of your brain that still wants to click into content creation and say, I didn't buy content or I didn't buy beauty products for a year. And here were the four things that I actually used or hit empty. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's funny you say that because I don't necessarily get that feeling in terms of sharing links, but I still have this like intrinsic urge.
00:22:17
Speaker
And I need to write a post about this, but I still have this intrinsic urge just when I'm doing random things to be like, oh, this would be a great post. And then I'm like, oh, okay, stop. Live your life. Not everything is content because for so long, I just saw everything as content and this is an opportunity for content. And even
00:22:39
Speaker
One of the things I noticed because now that I live in Vermont and it snows a lot more here is every time it snows, I have this urge to go get my phone and take a video. I'm like, why do I feel the need to share every time it snows?
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah, no, I understand that. I think, I feel like it's really complex because I think that there might be, and maybe this is totally wrong. I think there might be some kind of innate creative human urge to share, like maybe creative people want to capture and share things.
00:23:12
Speaker
that's like the kernel of it. Then I feel like the desire for validation, the dopamine, like how will others perceive me? Will this make people perceive me more positively? Is this a great idea? And it takes over so fast. Yes. I think that's a really great point. And I think I'm still trying to unravel that in my own
00:23:33
Speaker
brain of the urge to share, which I do have and to create, and the urge to create because I think it's going to do well on social media.
00:23:47
Speaker
Yeah. I want to examine this because I thought I had, I was like, oh my God, Jess needs to write a book about 10 years in content creation and then stepping back from consumerism. And there's so much here about mentally, emotionally, creatively, like.
00:24:06
Speaker
Your process that even that I'm like, why do I need you to turn that into content? Why can't I just let you have that experience? Yeah, and I do have such an urge to share that this process that I'm going through but even it's so hard to process it in my own mind because I feel like literally unraveling 10 years of this identity that I had that was so wrapped up in
00:24:34
Speaker
who I was as an online person and what that meant.
Life as a Content Creator and Parent
00:24:38
Speaker
and how I lived my life and how I shared my life. I'm just scratched the surface of that. I'm so excited for your sub stack as soon as you will have a paid subscriber in me. So I think maybe not to go back a little bit and talk about what the nitty gritty of the last 10 years has been like and evolved for you. Could you talk us through what a day in the life is like for you right now as you navigate this change and transition?
00:25:06
Speaker
Yeah, I always really struggle to share my process or whatever, what my day to day is because one, I have a toddler. So my life is honestly a shit show. The amount of times that she's homesick from school or we have late start or whatever. So I just, I have to be flexible in how I structure my days and also, and this is something that I'm finally just accepting about myself instead of punishing myself for it. I am.
00:25:36
Speaker
I'm not that organized. I'm not someone who's this day I'm going to do this and this day I'm going to do this and I'm going to set aside this much for writing and this time for this. No, I just, when something comes to me, I start writing it down or I start doing a voice note. I scribble thoughts everywhere. Sometimes I will sit down and write an essay in 15 minutes and then I'll go back and look at it, but it's, it's there. Other times it's a little more structured because I.
00:26:06
Speaker
have something that I've been planning to share if we did a bathroom renovation or something and so I'll sit down and go through and work on that.
00:26:14
Speaker
My days look a little different because I don't really have a lot of I don't have any sponsored content right now And so that also has it's a weird feeling it's a scary feeling But it's also a weird feeling because so much of my time was structured around. Okay. I have this deadline I got to shoot this I got to do this and now it's really driven by what I want to write and what I want to say and has almost
00:26:40
Speaker
Made me freeze up a little bit, but there I have moments where I just it flows out of me. So I'm just trying to follow that flow. And I'm also obviously working on this website rebrand that is going to launch probably at the end of February. So right now a lot of my time is going into how I'm going to structure the content on my new site.
00:27:01
Speaker
what that's gonna look like, design and branding and things like that. And I also consume a lot of content, not on social media, but I love to read other writers. And I think that a lot of my writing, cause I'll read something and then think, oh yeah, that makes so much sense. And I have more to say on that. So that's been an interesting process to explore too. It sounds like you have a very artistic intuitive process.
00:27:29
Speaker
It's chaotic. Let's be real, but somehow it works. No, it's interesting. And I think when I was actually talking with someone who I really admire the business that she built yesterday, but she has a very intuitive approach to things. She works in PR. She'll say to clients, I don't do ROI or KPIs like we follow my gut. And I think, oh my God, I'm in love with the audacity of that. That's amazing. But I like.
00:27:59
Speaker
I think so often when someone brings an intuitive artistic approach to something, I think there's less of an understanding of patience for it in our more, we like order, efficiency, structure, predictability when it comes to anything involving money or revenue.
00:28:16
Speaker
Yeah. But there are so many folks, when I'm drawn or attracted to the work they've done, you very much among them, I think, damn, this person's so talented, such an artist. There's such a creative, consistent force behind this.
00:28:31
Speaker
I hope that it starts to shift a little bit, that we start to also honor the intuitive artists among us who are also building profitable, consistent, really cool things. I will say, when I was at my height in terms of making the most money, I was the most unhappy.
00:28:54
Speaker
Really? And it took a mental breakdown for me to realize that. And I'm laughing, but it's not funny. It actually was not a great time for me. And that is what started the whole shift. And as scary as it is to walk away from money on the table, I just realized, like, this is not serving me. So I have to find a way to get back to why I wanted to do this and what fuels me.
00:29:23
Speaker
and gives me purpose and drives me and figure out how to make a living from that and maybe it doesn't come anywhere near what I ever made at the height of my influencer life, but I'm okay with that.
00:29:36
Speaker
What are some of the really challenging aspects of being a successful content creator? What was it like when you were at your height of revenue? I think a lot of it is internalized pressure and pressure I put on myself, but also I just felt very exposed. I was someone that, and I still am, have always been pretty outspoken on issues that are important to me. So the bigger your audience gets,
00:30:05
Speaker
the more you open yourself up to people ripping you to shreds for sharing your opinions and beliefs on things, whether that's abortion or gun rights or whatever it is you're talking about. So there's that aspect of it that was hard. Also as a new mom,
00:30:24
Speaker
that really broke me down. It's just a hard, I think social media can be really tough. It was for me anyway, just first of all, just I was a vulnerable hormonal first time mom. And I wish I had never shared almost anything because that was just, I wasn't in a good place mentally to receive the kind of
00:30:52
Speaker
negative things people would say and it's not even like it was a lot but I just wasn't in a position to Be able to handle it and then the privacy stuff. I'm an introvert and I that's probably hard for people to believe given what I do But at the end of the day, like I was mostly working by myself at home My partner took my pictures So we had a good thing going. I wasn't
00:31:20
Speaker
a super public person, except that I was. So whether it was being approached in public, the thing that happened with my daughter with someone going up to her in a park was totally like the deal breaker for me.
00:31:35
Speaker
but I just started to feel like I was losing my sense of privacy and I could not handle that. That was the thing that kind of pulled me pretty far from wanting to be so online.
00:31:51
Speaker
And on social media, I guess I should say. Can I ask what happened with your daughter? Did someone just- Yes. I did share photos of her on Instagram for the first few months of her life. And someone went up to her in a park while she was with our babysitter, addressed her by name, and then went into this whole made up story with my babysitter about how she knew me. She was my college roommate.
00:32:19
Speaker
She needed my number. She had gone out for drinks with me the week before. It was all made up. No idea who the woman was. And my babysitter immediately left and called me and told me the whole story. And I obviously freaked out. And that was it. I wiped my daughter off of the internet completely and I never shared her again.
00:32:42
Speaker
But that just totally shattered any illusion I had of privacy online. I was like, oh wait, yeah, there's thousands of people I don't know looking at my stuff and thinking that they know me when they know like a tiny fraction about me.
00:32:59
Speaker
And they don't all have good intentions or I don't know what their intentions are. And that just really freaked me out. And so that just, it was never the same for
Evolving Income Sources
00:33:09
Speaker
me after that. That's terrifying. Yeah. I'm sorry that happened. And I can totally see that being a catalyst for such a shift in the way you work. So.
00:33:19
Speaker
Previously, you were making money from sponsorships and affiliate links and ads on your website. And your plan is to, or it sounds like you've stopped the majority of that and your intention is for revenue to come exclusively from sub-stack subscriptions. Is that right? So I still have display ads on my site and I'll keep those there.
00:33:41
Speaker
And those are through Mediavine, which is an ad network for bloggers. It's not a huge amount of revenue, but it can be. It varies month to month. It's not nothing. Let's put it that way.
00:33:55
Speaker
I've turned down all Instagram partnerships so far this year. There are a few brands who are actually really interested in my buy nothing new. So there may be a few brands that I partner with on the blog, fashion brands that will not focus on new stuff, but on styling pieces from them that I already have that they continue to carry, but we'll see. But yeah, ultimately I'm hoping to
00:34:23
Speaker
focus mainly on sub-stack subscriptions. Sorry, I'm just going to back up for a second. I think a lot of people will be curious about pre-substack. I think that everyone wants to know the details of exactly how content creators are making money. Would you be comfortable sharing a breakdown of revenue from how much was coming through partnerships or sponsorships versus ads versus affiliate links?
00:34:50
Speaker
Um, the height of when I was making the most money, it was through brand partnerships. That was the majority of my income. I had a manager.
00:35:02
Speaker
I was probably averaging a partnership a week, and then it would be affiliate revenue behind that. And at the time, I don't think I was doing display ads. Last year, it was probably like 60% brand partnerships, 30% affiliate, 10% site revenue. But I haven't actually looked at my numbers from last year, but I think that's probably a safe
00:35:23
Speaker
estimate. And it's actually probably a little more evenly split between brand partnerships and affiliate revenue just because my brand partnership revenue has gone down because I turned down so many things. And I also no longer work with a management team because I wasn't bringing in enough revenue for this. So that's why I think the affiliate links and the
00:35:46
Speaker
brand partnerships were closer in how much they brought in. Thank you for sharing that. That's really interesting. I want to ask your tips on sub-stack because I think a lot of folks will be interested in that. But before we jump into that, what do you think people underestimate or don't understand about content creators? I think it's, it is a lot of work to be a content creator.
00:36:10
Speaker
It's not hard work, but it's a lot of work. And I think it's easy to make it seem like it's frivolous and easy. But if you think about it this way, if a brand is a firm to make an ad for them or do marketing, they have a team of 10 to 15 people working on that content.
00:36:39
Speaker
Typically with a content creator, it's them and one other person. And obviously this varies widely. And there's content creators that do have teams now. They're their own brands. They're huge. But a lot of content creators, it's just them. They probably work with a photographer and maybe they have some help from assistant every now and again, but they're doing everything themselves. And there's a lot of different jobs you have to have
00:37:07
Speaker
as someone who's creating content, regardless of the platform. So I think that it's misunderstood how much work actually does go into it. I think that people get annoyed when content creators talk about being burnt out because they think that it's an easy job. And it's, like I said, it's not necessarily quote unquote hard, but it's a lot of work, a lot of hours. There's almost no off switch.
00:37:35
Speaker
Yeah. And that is what's driving to so much burnout and mental health issues and anxiety is because to stay relevant and to keep up, especially on social media, you cannot take a break. Yeah.
00:37:51
Speaker
I appreciate all of that. When I look at it from the outside, I see the, I think that you mentioned the word frivolous and I think because it's often we think of content creators as targeting a female audience for the most part.
00:38:07
Speaker
It's like in this space of frivolity and female consumerism, but there's a hard skill set there in your negotiating, your admin, your coordinating, your shooting, your editing. There's an artistry as well that I think people really underestimate. If the average person went out on the street and tried to take nice looking photos of an outfit, it's not going to look anything.
00:38:34
Speaker
the professional content that content creators are putting out there. And I think often sometimes there's such a dismissiveness toward both kind of the business savvy, but I also totally hear what you're saying too, and how mentally difficult it is to be
00:38:54
Speaker
constantly online, constantly working long hours. And I appreciate you sharing all that. So as you make the move to sub-stack, do you feel a sense of freedom or?
00:39:05
Speaker
excitement. How are you feeling about the shift? I do. It's interesting because Substack has also instituted some of these little social media-esque things like hearts, and I don't think are that important or significant. But yes, I personally feel such a sense of just relief and openness that I haven't felt
00:39:26
Speaker
on social media in so long. And I think some of that has to do with the fact that I think I just prefer long form content. It's hard for me to just share little snippets and feel like I'm saying what I want to say and I don't want to spend my whole day on stories. And
00:39:43
Speaker
there is an audience for long form content. Substack proves that. So I feel like I'm reaching an audience that wants to connect with what I have to say there. And that feels really good. Is there anything that you found advice you could give for writers who are trying to make it work on Substack or even other content creators thinking about making this shift over?
00:40:10
Speaker
anything you've found that you're like, hey, these are like a few little tips that have actually helped with open rates, follower growth, success on the platform. I feel like I haven't been on there long enough to give anyone meaningful advice, but just looking at what has done well for me, I think once I finally, excuse my language, just said, fuck it, and wrote what I really wanted to say,
00:40:36
Speaker
That content resonated the most. It was shared the most. It had the most comments. I gained the most subscribers. So I think just allowing myself to be open and share what I was really thinking and not hold back anymore and just really experiment with whatever this new thing is.
00:40:58
Speaker
was what connected most with people, which seems obvious, but when you create content for brands for so long, it can be easy to lose your own voice a little bit. Yeah, I can imagine that.
00:41:11
Speaker
I think something that I've found is that even when theoretically I have the freedom to write about whatever I want, like for the Content People newsletter, for example, I feel like I'm still putting myself in a box that doesn't
Challenges in Staying True to Oneself
00:41:29
Speaker
exist. I'm thinking, what's the right angle on this?
00:41:34
Speaker
within the family of topics I've been writing on in a way that's not going to alienate folks, and I'll realize, I'll be like, oh, I'm putting up parameters that other people aren't, and I'm sure that sometimes it's reflected in that maybe the content feels less, or I presume that tell when someone's writing about what they think they should write about.
00:41:54
Speaker
Have you found for yourself that you're breaking down some of those walls and are you writing about anything you wouldn't have expected to be sharing on? I wouldn't have expected to make a pledge to not buy anything new and then talk about it. My whole business and life revolved around
00:42:16
Speaker
consumerism and sharing outfits. And that's actually been really fun because I'm forced to just work with what I have. I just, like I said, I'm such in an exploration phase right now of just figuring out my likes and dislikes and what I want to say and how I feel about a person who was so extremely online to now being very offline in the sense that I'm really not on social media at all. I unfollowed every account on Instagram.
00:42:46
Speaker
So if I post on there, I just post and then I get off, which has been really interesting. Just being open to letting my
00:42:56
Speaker
mind wander and following it wherever it's going to go and just writing down what comes to me instead of following the formula of, I know people want this. I should probably just keep that in there. And I even started to do that with Substack in the beginning. I was like, okay, I need to have a structure and I'm going to have these different things and I'm going to do this every week. And then I actually read your interview, the breakdown of your interview with Jessica Dafino and
00:43:20
Speaker
There were just so many great takeaways from that. And I thought how she talked about not following a set schedule or worrying about when you post something or how many times you write something. And I just thought, yeah, why am I, here I am again, setting all these rules for myself on this new platform when I don't need to do that.
00:43:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. I found that. Now I'm doing that again. I'm like backtracking and just trying to let it flow a little more. I was going to ask, is there an ethos that you think has generally served you well over your content career? I feel like you're speaking to it a little bit here, but is there advice you'd give someone who was interested and
00:43:57
Speaker
getting into content, whatever that might look like for them.
Authenticity in Content Creation
00:44:02
Speaker
Yeah, you just have to be true to yourself. It's so cliche, but that's what people connect with. And it can be so easy to get wrapped up in what everyone else is doing, especially on social media, because a lot of times it feels like that's the only way to get your content seen. But I think one of the reasons why I have
00:44:26
Speaker
a pretty loyal readership, even though it may be a lot smaller than it was two years ago or three years ago is, and I say smaller because I think there were people who expected certain things from me and I'm not doing that anymore. So they've moved on and that's okay. I think there will be people who find me and appreciate
00:44:47
Speaker
what I'm doing now and there already are. And so maybe there will be new people who connect with what I'm doing, but ultimately I think people are loyal because they, I've been pretty transparent along the way about my own personal
00:45:03
Speaker
struggles just not just with work but with life and just being open to my kind of evolving journey as a human being and a mom and a person who owns their own business.
00:45:18
Speaker
I've never really tried to be something that I'm not. I've definitely fallen into traps of trying to maybe follow certain trends or do things that I thought were gonna be the most popular with my audience. But I've always stayed pretty true to who I am. And I think now I'm going so deep back into that and just shedding all of the stuff I've been carrying around that
00:45:46
Speaker
I held on to because I felt like I needed those things to show up as the person I was online. So peeling away all those layers and going back to what's important to me and connecting with people on that level, I think, I hope is going to be a really good next chapter for me. I'm so excited to follow it. I also want to say
00:46:11
Speaker
Jess, I feel like you've been such an honest, vulnerable, real interview here. I'm so appreciative of how open you've been, and I think it's going to resonate with a lot of people, and I appreciate that about your content across the board.
00:46:27
Speaker
Thank you. Is there anything that you wish I'd asked that I didn't or just anything you'd like to say before we wrap up? I'm interested to see where this industry goes. I talk to so many friends who are still very much in the industry and it seems like there's a lot of people really struggling with burnout. And I also see a lot of people moving their audiences
00:46:50
Speaker
off of social media and onto platforms like Substack or other owned platforms where they have more control over their content and how it's seen. I think there's just the landscape is changing. And I don't know, 2024 is a big year. It's an election year. I have to be honest, I'm so happy I'm not on social media because the last election almost killed me.
00:47:12
Speaker
Yeah, I have my own ways of being involved and sharing meaningful content around that are not on social media.
00:47:21
Speaker
But yeah, it's a big year. I'm excited. I feel like this is just, especially for me, a new chapter that, that finally feels really good. So I'm hoping I can make it work. And if not, I'll find a job or something. All right. Well, I will be rooting for you. A lot of folks are going to feel the same. So I'm really looking forward to following you and thank you so much for doing this interview. I loved getting to hear from you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
00:47:53
Speaker
Hey content people, do you mind if I call you that? If you like the show, there are a few ways you can stay in touch and support us. The first is you could subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts. That way you won't miss an episode. The second is you could leave a five star rating and a review.
00:48:10
Speaker
Those make a really big impact. I know they're kind of a pain and they take a little bit of time, but if you're feeling generous and you've been listening to the show, I'd appreciate it so much. And the third is you could sign up for the Content People newsletter. The link is in the show notes. We share news about the show and episodes. And I also write a lot about the intersection between work and creativity, which is kind of at the heart of so many of these Content People conversations.
00:48:34
Speaker
We also love feedback. If you want to request a guest or a topic, put yourself to be on the show, advertise with us, learn more about Medbury social media, or otherwise just be in touch, shoot me an email. I would love to hear from you. It's Meredith at medburyagency.com. That's M-E-D-B-U-R-Y agency.com. I will throw that in the show notes too. All right, until next time.