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#47: Almost like a bad spy movie
69 Plays5 years ago
Podcast series host Jill James speaks with Jim Allyn, MarTech Media’s resident subject matter expert for reliability training. Jim is one of the most experienced training instructors to ever grace the podcast, with too many stories from the field to pack into one episode.
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Transcript
Introduction: Meet Jim Allen
00:00:10
Speaker
This is the Accidental Safety Pro brought to you by Vivid Learning Systems and the Health and Safety Institute, episode number 47. My name is Jill James, Vivid's Chief Safety Officer, and today I'm joined by Jim Allen, Education Safety and Training Professional with Martech Media. Jim is joining us today from Houston, Texas. Jim, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Jill.
00:00:35
Speaker
Well, so Jim, you're a little familiar with the podcast now. And you know that it starts out by asking people to tell their safety story. And I'm really interested to hear
Jim's Accidental Entry into Safety
00:00:50
Speaker
yours. I know you have a background in mechanical, electrical, and safety instruction and training development. And so I can't wait to get into that and how you got there. So do you want to start us off?
00:01:04
Speaker
Tell us, how did you accidentally get into this profession? Absolutely. I'd love to. And it's funny that you mentioned accidental because it was so accidental how I literally got into this field. My safety saga or drama, as we'll call it, started off when I was in the United States military. And what we were told safety was really wasn't safety. And
00:01:31
Speaker
Over time and just being in the military realm with current events, you really come to realize that what they're calling safety is really nothing more than risk management. So it's definitely not identification and abatement. It's definitely like, hey, how do we reduce the chances that we have to do a safety report? So we always had that.
00:01:57
Speaker
Risk tools to help us get around safety instructions regulations so on so forth. Okay, so I Definitely knew after 20 years in the military that that wasn't the way to do it. That wasn't right. So When I retired from military service I got into oil and gas because I didn't want to go from the world's lowest paying profession Which is the military to the next lowest paying profession
Safety Challenges in the Oil and Gas Industry
00:02:20
Speaker
whatever that is. I didn't want to find it. Okay, I
00:02:23
Speaker
So I got into oil and gas and I started out operations on the rig and looking for absolutely no responsibility whatsoever. So I was working the floors and just everyday operations and it started to have a very similar feel to the United States military safety wise. We would have what I would call unsafe briefings in the morning where we talk about all the unsafe stuff we would do and
00:02:49
Speaker
If we ever as the operation specialist ever tried to invoke some sort of safety stop or safety common sense, you'd get told if you don't do it, we'll find someone else who will. So it really wasn't safety. It was risk assessment again. Yeah. So was it more like we're going to do this stuff. It's dangerous. Watch out, be careful. Next subject.
00:03:14
Speaker
Um, yes, but a lot of times we didn't get the, Hey, watch out and be careful. Okay. Okay. We would get the, don't break the equipment. It's all about the money. And if you get hurt, it was almost like a bad spy movie will disavow all knowledge of what's going on. Okay. Great. So then, oh yeah. So then I dug into it a little farther once I continued my career in oil and gas and
00:03:43
Speaker
I've come to find that the standard of safety in oil and gas is less than pathetic.
00:03:50
Speaker
And it would turn out to be that companies would expect one to two fatalities a year. A major accident event wasn't categorized unless there was eight fatalities or more. So if seven people became deceased, it was bad, but thank God it wasn't eight. And I'm like, this is just absolutely crazy. So the risk bar was different and obtuse to what you thought was acceptable. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:04:20
Speaker
And so that really piqued my interest in operational health and safety and OSHA.
Integrating Safety in Mechanical Skills Training
00:04:26
Speaker
And I kind of realized for my own self-preservation, I think I need to get a little smarter in this.
00:04:33
Speaker
I left oil and gas because as lucrative as it was, I'm like, you know, the chances of me losing a finger, a head, toes, teeth is just not worth it because there's not a culture of safety there. Okay. It's window dressing. Yeah. Particularly where you work. Oh, particularly. Yeah. And, and I went to an engineering firm because I have a reliability background and I was doing reliability training and
00:05:04
Speaker
Do you mind explaining for our audience in case we don't know, what is reliability training? Okay, reliability training is developing preventative and predictive maintenance plans and strategies for companies. So it leverages the hard skills of mechanics, electrics, so on and so forth, but it also includes regulatory compliance, safety compliance, and it's really creating
00:05:32
Speaker
a more efficient way of doing business. And it's evidence-based, basically evidence-based decision making. So I had the opportunity to take a couple OSHA classes from a local college, and they put me in touch with a program to allow me to be an outreach instructor. And I'm like, well, this sounds very fascinating. So I pursued that course.
00:06:02
Speaker
And when I got hired on a MarTech, every time I'd go out in the field, I would see just huge safety voids in the training we were doing and what we were trying to create. My training became the perfect media combined with the OSHA outreach instruction.
00:06:25
Speaker
to to kind of meld the training that i'm doing now and and when you say osha outreach instruction you're talking about the ability to teach the osha 10 and 30 yes ma'am yeah okay yep and even just when i started off becoming a general a general industry outreach instructor
00:06:44
Speaker
For some reason, when I would mention safety in a class, all of a sudden, there was credibility. And all of a sudden, people started to listen and pay attention. And as the reputation gone on that, yes, this Jim Allen guy is providing mechanical skills, but he's also weaving safety, compliance, and everything into it.
00:07:07
Speaker
It just came as that was almost more important than the mechanical skills was getting the safety knowledge. Yeah. Yeah. So Jim, you were hired to do mechanical skills training. Is that right? Yes, ma'am. Yeah. So for our audience who might be wondering, what does that mean? If that sounds like a foreign word to someone who's maybe starting out in safety, what is mechanic? What are mechanical skills? Okay.
00:07:33
Speaker
Very good question. Mechanical skills is very broad, but I'll take it from my strand of mechanical skills. I will instruct industrial mechanics, mill rights, and that of the sort, and we'll start dealing with fundamentals of mechanical skills, and then we will work with certain
00:08:02
Speaker
original equipment or OEM manufacturer engines of certain brands, and we'll provide the instruction, the fundamentals of how to work on them, we'll go out and work on them, and we'll just provide a hard series of skills. Can you give some examples of what some of the equipment might be for people who are thinking, okay, what kind of equipment? What's the breadth of this?
00:08:28
Speaker
Okay. Recently, I've been doing a lot of work with the larger diesel engines that power power plants. Okay. So we'll have an engine haul, so to speak, of 12 very large engines that weigh up to 50,000 pounds a piece, two stories tall, driving a generator that produces the power in everyone's house nowadays.
00:08:54
Speaker
We'll go and we will learn or we'll increase, sharpen the skills of the mechanics who work on them to the safest way to work on them, the proper way to work on them, the OEM specifications, get rid of all the bad habits of, well, that's how we've always done it. Yeah. And what does OEM mean for people who aren't familiar with that? Original equipment manufacturer. Yes. Okay. So we pretty much take the owner's manual of a car and apply that to the equipment.
00:09:24
Speaker
And you would be surprised at how many skilled mechanics, technicians, whatnot actually learn once they have a chance to stop doing what they've always done and actually get into what the original manufacturer intended or wanted. Yeah, you know, that's that's that's so interesting that you talk about that and know that someone like you does that kind of training in the time that I spent with OSHA over the years whenever
Importance of OEM Manuals in Safety Training
00:09:51
Speaker
Whenever we were trying to figure out a hazard or determine is this a hazard, how would you do it? What would we do with something? And it wasn't in the regulation book because let's face it, not every single piece of equipment or situation can you find in the 1910 or 1926. The advice was on our end to the employer was to always go back to that manufacturer.
00:10:18
Speaker
and what their instructions were on the proper use of it, or modifications thereof, or how to maintain something properly. And it was often met with, we don't have the manual, it's so old it must have came over on the Mayflower, or that sounds hard. And so, yeah, so you work with people on this exact thing. Oh, absolutely. I also have a background with the hydroelectric power plants like the Hoover Dam,
00:10:49
Speaker
And that is literally stuff that was built in the previous century. None of the engineers are still alive. In industry, there's always a turnover of personnel. And it's usually a 20-year cycle. People move up, they retire, so on and so forth. So when we have to instruct for that environment, I have to go on engineering journals like Scribed and pull up.
00:11:14
Speaker
you know, manuals, handwritten manuals from the early 1900s and whatnot. So yes, you know, it is not uncommon for manufacturers or operators of equipment to go, we don't have that book.
00:11:27
Speaker
Yeah, right. I'm just thinking about so many punch presses. They're so varying of different... They're so old, many of them in manufacturing facilities in particular. Interesting. Interesting. You're training people on that and you're weaving safety into it. You mentioned mill rights. Talk about what that is and what kind of equipment and personnel that includes.
00:11:57
Speaker
Okay, a millwright, I don't want to offend anyone out there, is a fancy term for a mechanic, but their training is, their mechanical training is very specific to an industry. Whether they are a hydroelectric millwright or they're a factory millwright, but really they just have a specific set of mechanical skills that deal with the equipment that they're quite or very likely to encounter. So they receive a very broad training.
00:12:25
Speaker
So someone who goes to an automotive college will receive completely different training than someone who finds millwright training.
00:12:33
Speaker
Got it. OK. OK. That makes a lot of sense. I'm picturing in my mind, well, for anyone who follows Vevid Learning Systems in the Supervisor Safety Tips series, the last place I filmed was a sugar beet processing plant. And I suspect, Jim, that I came across a lot of millwrights. You absolutely did.
00:13:00
Speaker
All right. And so they would be needing this training that you're, that you're talking about this mechanical skills training. Absolutely. And also when I, when we talk about the mechanical skills, because we weave the safety into it, there's a lot of identification and abatement that we all can do in the class, you know, cause hands-on is where all knowledge, I believe all knowledge is obtained and transferred. So.
00:13:27
Speaker
We'll teach the fundamentals, we'll teach the classroom, and then when we go out, whether it's a beet plant, electrical power plant,
00:13:35
Speaker
or wherever the place will be, we can always apply safety, saying like, hey, should there be guards on this piece of equipment? Or, hey, we're using the overhead hoist. Has there been an inspection done on it? Has it documented? Are you trained for it? Have we done the lockout, tag out, step-by-step procedures to identify all the energy sources for this particular thing? Oh, yes. And even deeper with that, I can usually ask the,
00:14:04
Speaker
Students, do you know what exactly we're doing when we lock out and tag out this equipment? When I shut this valve off and I throw a lock on it or I flip the switch and put a tag on it, what is that actually accomplishing? So, I mean, it's amazing how much safety is interwoven into everything that happens in the mechanical or industry and people just don't even realize it.
00:14:27
Speaker
Yeah, so so Jim where I'm just thinking about I mean this seems like a critical training and do some employers when they're hiring do they can they hire employees who have mechanical skills training already or a little bit of it or is this something that's like an apprenticeship program
00:14:50
Speaker
on the job, or how does this education piece work for industrial mechanics and mill rights? Okay, when it comes to mill rights, that is usually an apprenticeship type of program. There is X amount of college or industrial skills training, but a lot of it is, I don't want to say intern, sorry I just lost the word for it, but a lot of it comes from the apprenticeship programs.
00:15:20
Speaker
Some are union sponsored, some are company sponsored. It's very desirable for a manufacturer or an employer to find someone who's been through an apprenticeship program because nine times out of ten they have the safety aspect and they have at least a set of hard skills that with experience
00:15:43
Speaker
they can bring them up to be a productive member relatively shortly. Now the question comes is what if we don't have that pool of knowledge available? And that's where I come in to set that up and actually go out there and provide that hands-on training, albeit much shorter than a standard two-year apprenticeship, but it's still a really good starting point. And it's great to allow the
00:16:11
Speaker
the company that has brought us on, they get like a skills assessment, they get a gap analysis. So it really kind of helps everyone to provide training because you can't train experience. You have to get that experience, but before you get that experience, you have to have some sort of knowledge to get experience. God, that sounds such catch-22-ish.
00:16:33
Speaker
Doesn't it? It really does, but it makes complete sense. You want to bring somebody up in the ranks that has some talent, or you bring them into an industry that they've never been in before, but they've been in other industries, so you need to get them familiarized with your equipment and the way that you do things and the risks.
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah and so you need to do that training. So Jim do you often find yourself doing kind of deep dive in particular subjects depending on the employer with whom you're working? Absolutely. Usually in the the first two hours of any instructional session with that I that I lead that's usually will identify what deep dive subjects we need to go into and
00:17:24
Speaker
Shockingly enough, the majority of it is safety. Because before I take someone even out to the field, I want to make sure that we're all working safely. We're all on the same page. We all have the same standard, the same want to be safe. So there's always a deep dive into safety, usually followed by a deep dive into the reliability aspect of where we're working.
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah, it makes sense. So I think, pardon me, if we've gotten off track from your career story, because I think this is just so interesting to me. In the years that I've been a safety professional, which is 25 years, I would never feel qualified to do what it is that you do. And so I guess my question is, when people bring you in to do this training,
Collaboration with Safety Professionals
00:18:17
Speaker
Are the people that are reaching out and asking for your help usually the safety professional or an operations manager or a union leader? How does that work for anybody who's listening who might be a safety professional and they're thinking, okay, I think we need this where I'm at. Who's normally reaching out to you?
00:18:42
Speaker
Okay, once again, very good question. A lot of times it comes from the operational managers where there'll be a reduction in production, an increase in downtime, an increase of equipment out of service, and that's usually followed by
00:19:00
Speaker
an increase in safety reportable incidents. So usually it's the operational manager that'll say, wow, we're not making money, all of our equipment's broken, and we're getting hurt. Oh crap, we need to get some help. Now, unfortunately, in that situation, there's a lot of politics that goes on with the safety department because usually they're real
00:19:22
Speaker
resentful that someone else is coming in here into their territory. Oh, interesting. Yeah, yes. I would think just the opposite because I'm I'm just thinking, gosh, how would I ever teach someone to, you know, tear down and rebuild a diesel engine, you know? Oh, no, it's. Yeah. But but usually with the good and I've I've met more very good and intelligent safety professionals than than the latter. So usually when you
00:19:49
Speaker
when you incorporate them into their training. And that's where we get this interwovenness. Like, hey, what are your company policies? Let's look at your policies and see how I can weave them into my training to make an overall safer environment, to make a more aware employee. And then everyone kind of warms up when they realize like, okay, Mr. Jim is not here to cost me my job. He's here to help.
00:20:09
Speaker
Yeah, and you're doing things side by side because I imagine that, you know, in order for you to do what you do, you need to be, you know, even if it's the operations person that has reached out to you and you establish a relationship with you, quickly find yourself with a safety person to say, you know, the things that we're going to be looking at today are involving confined spaces. School me on what you have for a confined space entry program. Absolutely.
00:20:34
Speaker
Yeah, okay. And usually a lot of times before I even get in that environment, I try to reach out to the safety representatives and say, hey, what training do I have to have? What certifications do you guys want? What certificates do I need to send over? So on and so forth.
00:20:50
Speaker
in an attempt to try to stem off the hostility, so to speak. Sure, sure. Well, it seems like fantastic need and need number one and opportunity number two to really take things from
00:21:12
Speaker
basic compliance to really digging into the specifics of exposures that employees may have on the job.
Application of Industrial Skills in Various Sectors
00:21:21
Speaker
At the same time, you're teaching maintenance skills, right? Yes. The way to maintain and repair, would that be the right way to talk about industrial skills as well?
00:21:35
Speaker
Absolutely. When we're talking about industrial skills, a lot of the industrial skills that we'll look at is I will assess people performing a task, and then I get a chance to put my safety hat on and say, okay.
00:21:52
Speaker
Technician one and technician two technician two. Do you think you are standing in a safe place? Well technician one is using this powered piece of whatever or Technician one. Do you think putting that 15 foot cheater bar on that wrench? Do you think that is that the best way to do this? Mm-hmm or Technician one and two did you guys look below you on the lower deck to see if there's anyone there? Do they have their safety gear? So
00:22:18
Speaker
So yeah, so as we're, we're teaching these skills, part of teaching the skills is, Hey, let's get them some best practices. Yeah. And a lot of it is driven by safety. Yeah. Sounds like a job hazard analysis. Absolutely. It, it, yes. It's a live J job safety. Yep. Yeah. Right. Right. How do you get my acronyms? Well, yeah. I know it gets confusing in our, in our field. Definitely.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yeah. So Jim, while we've been talking, I'm thinking maybe people are putting in their minds a picture of a factory or, you know, oil and gas industry operations like you had talked about before. But these sort of skills training isn't just exclusive to industrial settings. These sort of, these sort of skills and equipment exist in other places of employment as well, correct?
00:23:12
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, give some examples of that too. Okay.
00:23:18
Speaker
Any place that employs robotics will have to have technicians. Any factory that has equipment, has machinery, has to be maintained. Yeah, so you said robotics, I'm thinking even healthcare. Yes, without a doubt. Any place that there's equipment used, where equipment's used for profit, there has to be a team to maintain that.
00:23:44
Speaker
So any, any industry can use these skills and any industry can use fundamentals where you always have to walk before you run. So you have to learn, okay, this is a bearing. This is what a bearing does before we get into, Hey, how do we troubleshoot an equipment with 136 bearings? That's making a squeaky noise. Yeah. And it doesn't matter what industry you're in. If you have the OEM manuals, if you have blueprints, if you have schematics,
00:24:13
Speaker
You can develop training from there. Sure. And if you have maintenance personnel, I'm guessing. Oh, absolutely. Right? Okay. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So applicable to most places of employment. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not an office setting or building unless you've got your own maintenance team that's maintaining everything that makes the building work.
00:24:40
Speaker
True, but here's kind of a caveat or a yeah but. Okay.
Setting Safety Standards for Contractors
00:24:45
Speaker
What about your contractors? A lot of trends in industry nowadays is to get rid of overhead and we'll maintain a skeleton force, but we'll have contractors come in to maintain our equipment. That's also prime territory for us. Let's go provide the contractors with the knowledge and standards that this company has to perform their maintenance.
00:25:10
Speaker
Even if you don't have your own dedicated maintenance crew, the ones who you hire, you're still responsible for them from a safety aspect, from a performance aspect. Yes, because you're the host employer under the multi-employer worksite policy with OSHA. That makes sense. So then would your job in those cases be to develop those processes for when they bring on
00:25:37
Speaker
Certain contractors maybe some of that like reliability training if is it would that be right? Absolutely. Okay, and if nothing else we would develop and set the maintenance standards for them. Okay as in you have to have a
00:25:52
Speaker
everyone with an OSHA 10 or an OSHA 30 for safety-wise prior to coming on the site, you have to have your mechanics or you have to have all of your torque wrenches calibrated prior to coming on site. You have to have passed a basic skills test that usually we could develop to just establish their knowledge base and competency. Yeah, and that's so the host employer can feel comfortable with whom they hire, who they contract with. Absolutely.
00:26:22
Speaker
So like we said, if, and this is going to sound so strange, but if wrenches are turned or electrons are being checked, there should be training for that. Yeah.
00:26:35
Speaker
Yeah, makes sense. Yeah, this is really good. And so for our audience who's listening today, the thing that if they're interested in finding this kind of training, would the key words they would look for or ask about is industrial skills training? Or are there more words that they could ask for and search about? Terms rather. That is a very good question. Industrial skills,
00:27:05
Speaker
craft training okay okay and you could put whatever craft in front of that electrical craft mechanical craft so on so forth okay or you could look at any any provider online that has online content yeah there will usually be links or access to instructor led content okay
00:27:32
Speaker
Okay. So you can do kind of combinations of, of online training and instructor led training to provide that hands on piece that you were talking about. Oh, absolutely.
00:27:44
Speaker
I always try to blend in online prerequisite prior to the actual class. So I'm at least establishing some base of knowledge for when we start. So yes, the blended approach of instructor-led and e-learning, that's a very impactful approach, very value-added. Okay, very good. So Jim, you've been doing this kind of training for how long now?
00:28:10
Speaker
Okay, in the civilian world, I've been doing this for about 10 years. Okay. And in the military, I had a stint as a training instructor for eight. Oh, wow. All right.
00:28:22
Speaker
So where have, where has your training taken you into? What kind of environments, what sort of things have you seen? Do you have any stories that you like to tell that were particularly impactful that keeps you doing it for what that sounds like 18 years now?
Improving Safety Culture in Unique Environments
00:28:38
Speaker
Yes. Absolutely. Okay. I have performed training everywhere from African countries, which was super interesting because that is a,
00:28:51
Speaker
a generally conscript workforce based on politics of who you have to hire and that's not necessarily qualified people or as indigenous people. So that is always interesting especially working with a translator. I have worked in
00:29:09
Speaker
I don't want to say Beirut, Lebanon, but Beirut, Lebanon, where we've had to have armed security guards drive us from our building to the plant and back and forth. That's always interesting. But some of my favorite places I've worked at is in the Caribbean. Because on an island, you have to be self-sufficient. So if their power plant is not working effectively, everyone on the island
00:29:35
Speaker
pays for that or feels that effect. It's not like you can get parts down the road. Exactly. Or it's not like you can look for another power provider and get better service. So one story that I have is I'm not going to mention the client's name. And I was out there to do an assessment. And when I was doing my assessment,
00:30:00
Speaker
I walked off the job site after being there for half an hour and told them I want to jump on a plane and go home because I've never been so scared for my life. Oh wow. And of course the client's like, what? Totally shocked. And I'm like, look, I've seen a guy improperly rig a 2,000 pound piece of equipment and almost drop it over three or four people.
00:30:23
Speaker
I have just seen someone using that large wrench in an inappropriate manner and have it go flying off and hit somebody on the lower deck. And what was scary about that is I'm watching these guys work.
00:30:38
Speaker
And I'm like, they have got to be playing with me. They know I'm out here doing an assessment. And it took me a couple seconds to realize that they're not acting. This is everyday operations. There is not a safety culture here. There is not a maintenance culture here. Not an awareness of what hazards or risk is.
00:30:57
Speaker
Absolutely. It was definitely not a risk assessment. If a job safety analysis or job hazard analysis has been performed, it was just window dressing. It was just paper that everyone had to sign. There was no real meat or meaning behind it. And as I'm going on with this assessment, watching this improper tool being used in an improper manner, it goes, like I said, it goes flying off, bounces off the deck. And because we didn't have tow boards on the deck, it didn't get stopped.
00:31:25
Speaker
It went down and I heard it hit someone because I heard him moan. Then I heard him drop his tools and hit the ground. And by the time I ran to the lower deck, because I'm thinking, oh my god, I just watched someone get killed. Like, man, that's gonna be a lot of paperwork. But anyway, that was humor. I was going down there and this contractor didn't have his PPE on.
00:31:47
Speaker
Gets up, he's staggering, so I immediately go and look at his eyes, see if they're dilated, and I'm like, hey, are you okay? Are you okay? What day is it? What time is it? And he could talk, there wasn't anything coming out of his ears or nose or anything like that. And I'm like, dude, do I need to get you to the hospital? What's the plant's emergency action plan for this? And he was just like, no, no, I gotta work, I gotta work. I'm like, dude, you got a big lump on your head forming, I'm watching it form. No, no, I'm okay, I didn't get hit.
00:32:17
Speaker
So it's like, oh, okay. But the success part about this is that drove me even further and I was able to talk to the C-suite of the company and give them my report. So did you literally leave the island after being there for 30 minutes or how did this work next? Okay, how it worked next is they're like, you are embellishing. I always take pictures of everything because a picture speaks a thousand words. Yes. After that, they're like, oh,
00:32:45
Speaker
Please don't leave. I'm like, okay. I'm like, well, before we go any farther, we need to do some safety training. Let me talk to your safety people. Well, we don't have a safety team. We have a safety advisor. I'm like, what? Thus the problem. Yes. I'm like, okay. I'm like, if you want my services and you want me to step out of this office and go back to the money-making process, because it's all about money, unfortunately,
00:33:12
Speaker
I go, we need to do an assessment under safety program, we need to do a deep dive on that, and we need to provide education and the tools necessary for it. If not, I'm out. I'm leaving, I don't care what you guys say. So they did that, and I was able to provide three months of intensive safety training where we went over all the company policies. Because it was a Caribbean country, they weren't required to use OSHA,
00:33:40
Speaker
But all of their instructions were written directly from OSHA. So whoever they paid to write their instructions knew that OSHA had a good thing and a good, proven system. And that's what they wanted to implement. So I got a chance to leverage some OSHA experience that I had, go over 100% plant personnel, get trained. And then for a couple months after that, I was out doing safety assessments, basically being the safety man, company safety man.
00:34:08
Speaker
And I was able to see changes. It wasn't perfect, it was progress, not perfection, but I was able to feel safe enough and see that the initiatives that were happening, that I'm like, okay, I feel like I could work out here without losing a finger or my life. So like I said, that was one of those stories and that's what really kept me charged because I was able to identify and provide a solution.
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah so Jim when you started with that particular company and you started doing you know giving people information did that information empower them you know were they resistant to it or are they like oh man or like we've been waiting for this you know like how was it received?
Overcoming Middle Management Resistance
00:34:54
Speaker
Okay it was received very well but
00:34:58
Speaker
The students provided a lot of really good dialect, which allowed me to identify another issue and go and try to fix that or provide a fix for that. Which usually happens when you start talking with people. Oh, absolutely. The best way to do an inspection is just ask people, hey, what's wrong? They'll tell you. So we come to find that the people, various education levels, they went from
00:35:26
Speaker
Wow, we didn't even know there was these safety policies to our management will never let this happen. They'll never let us stop the job. They'll never let us, you know, there's a whole bunch of never, never, never. So I'm like, well, okay, fantastic. So I was able to take that information back to the C-suite, which is the CEO, CFO for those who don't know, and so on and so forth and say, hey,
00:35:48
Speaker
Here's what we've discovered. Here's the test that these guys have taken. They took a before test and an after test, so they have retained knowledge. We have done hands-on. They all have their links on their computers now to all the safety instructions. But the problem that we're having is we're having laggards at the middle management and upper management. So we were able to develop training to kind of meld the two, upper management, mid management.
00:36:15
Speaker
Like I said, the guys, even now, this has been three years, still see me and say, Mr. Jim, thank you. You know, I realized we were doing this wrong and look at what I've done. Look, all my guys have their PPE on. So that was very warming. And that's one of the few warm safety moments you have because nine times out of 10, if you're
00:36:37
Speaker
have anything to do with safety, you're the bad guy. You're telling someone you're doing it wrong. It's unsafe or whatnot. So to have a positive ending to be able to affect someone positively is outstanding. Yeah, it is. Congratulations on that. Thanks for sticking it out for all of those people. Well, that's pretty cool. It is. When you do instructor-led training, especially with a long-term client, you really develop a rapport and a relationship with
00:37:06
Speaker
the management, the students, the workers, the leadership. And it's a really
00:37:14
Speaker
great feeling when you feel like you've been accepted into the tribe. You're a contractor but you're part of their team. So Jim how do you help or how would you advise people like what's the what's the frequency or cadence that you do with training you know like how often are you going back and are you always doing same things same audiences or how does how does that part work?
Sustaining Training with Assessments
00:37:40
Speaker
Okay, and is there like a best practice to it? Yes, there is Whenever you start down the road of improvement, you always have to have the endgame insight which is sustainment Because you know giving knowledge one time and never applying that knowledge. You've just wasted that time and money and resources so You always have to have a plan on how to sustain and usually that could be refresher training a lot of times that's developed into an e-learning and
00:38:10
Speaker
type of refresher. So we always have that type of refresher training and continued assessments or continued observations. So you have to have that set in place before you try to set up on any type of training. Now, usually my cadence will to go into a company, set up some sort of knowledge-based test so I can establish my baseline. Okay, where are they weak at? Where are they strong at?
00:38:40
Speaker
bridge the gap between the two, provide that initial infusion of knowledge.
00:38:45
Speaker
at a later time, come back for follow-up training just to make sure that it took. And then it's time to reassess and say, okay, where else are we weak? Where do we need to go from here? We talked about the engine, for example, we've got the guys, we've got the serviceability rates better with the engine. Let's look at the support equipment now. What's the serviceability on their support equipment? Separators, pumps, whatnot, and so on. And that's usually how it goes. And I haven't found a company yet that we've worked for.
00:39:16
Speaker
That has said, you know what? We've spent enough money because the training provides results. Yeah. Results as in, as in things aren't breaking down. Things are continuing to work. People aren't getting hurt. Those kinds of results. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Um, serviceability rates are higher. It's costing them less money to, to make money. Um, people aren't, like I said, people aren't getting hurt. Um, people are working faster and harder, you know, because when you give them training, that's an investment in them.
00:39:43
Speaker
So they tend to, when they've received the training and are able to apply it, I don't want to say they become better employees, but they become vested employees.
00:39:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Yeah. So Jim, you talk about in your training, you know, some of it has to do with safety. And we've talked about OSHA regulations, compliance, that kind of thing.
Regulatory Bodies and Standards in Training
00:40:04
Speaker
You've also talked about using the OEM or the original equipment manufacturers, information to do things properly. Are there other regulations that you're often working to comply with when you're working with employers on some of this industrial maintenance?
00:40:19
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Yeah, what are some of those regulatory bodies? Okay, ISO. Okay. International Standards Organizations, one of them. Okay. IMSA. I can, I will have to get back to you on that exact. Uh-huh. What it means, yeah. Uh-huh. But generally, the regulatory bodies that we have to smart up on and comply with,
00:40:42
Speaker
depends on the geographic area that we're going to work on. Like certain companies will say are Dutch companies. So we would have to look at Dutch safety laws as well as ISO and any international standards. Some use ANSI and some use just ISO. So it really is client based.
00:41:05
Speaker
Okay, that makes sense. And sometimes do you derive some of that based on maybe what you read in some of these OEM manuals as well? Oh, absolutely. Okay. Everything has to be able to be tied back into the OEM manual. Okay. And a lot of times what I found with OEM manuals
00:41:26
Speaker
is if an OEM writes something down, they are now legally liable for it. So the best risk assessment that you can possibly have is to read the OEM specific instructions for what they consider safety is, how to take a part out, how to put a part in, so on and so forth, because they're liable.
00:41:47
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, and isn't that a good tip for anyone who's trying to work on a JSA or a JHA or write a process or a lockout tag out, um, step-by-step procedure or something. And they're like, ah, as a safety person, I don't know where to start. Well, start with that manual and maybe, maybe the blueprint's already there. Oh, absolutely. Yes. That is the best place. And, and as you said, probably 90% of your work will be done right there.
00:42:12
Speaker
So all's you'll have to integrate as a safety professional is now your company specifics. So yes. And teaching the hands on. Yes. And also the OEM manual.
00:42:27
Speaker
Usually a lot of times when I go out, I'm sorry, it's story time now. Yes, please. Whenever I go out to a piece of equipment that is malfunctioning or is a bad actor, which is known for historic poor performance, I'll evaluate the guys doing tasks and then I'll say, what's the OEM manual say?
00:42:45
Speaker
that's not how we ever done it blah blah blah but the second you get them to follow the OEM manual like magic but hey it's working better or that was the easiest I've ever done to install it mm-hmm so the OEM manual that whether you're a safety professional maintenance professional electrical professional or management it should be the gospel of of what you should follow
00:43:09
Speaker
So Jim, when I was doing inspections with OSHA or whenever I do a safety audit, and I'm observing people working and just trying to take in a processor system, I'm also always watching for what I call, well, I don't know what I call it, but weird homemade tools. The half of broomstick in the corner with the duct tape on it and a hook on the end or a weird piece of wire with
00:43:37
Speaker
that's bent in a particular precarious fashion and then I ask people okay now what do you do with that they're like oh yeah the thing always does this and then we stick it here and then we do blah blah blah blah I bet you have seen some really interesting ones based on your work oh goodness I've seen some very creative people out there
00:43:58
Speaker
And unfortunately a lot of the special tools or homemade tools are some of the most unsafe tools out there.
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah, talk about some of that. I mean, I think, you know, that's an aspect of a safety audit for people who are listening is to really watch and look for those things. And, you know, as I'm listening to you today, Jim, I'm thinking if I've seen a number in my career, I can't imagine how many you've seen doing what
Management of Change for Unofficial Tools
00:44:25
Speaker
you do. Oh, good God. Jill, so true.
00:44:29
Speaker
And okay, the first thing I usually do, whenever I see a unofficial looking tool, it's usually rusty. It usually looks like a seven year old put it together. People are usually very uncomfortable with the guy with the clipboard standing out there when they touch it. So they treat it like it's hot or on fire usually. So when I see that, the first thing I usually ask is have you guys done a management of change to use this tool?
00:44:54
Speaker
Oh, okay. Talk about what that means. Okay, management of change is a process that deals with the company's technical services department, the engineering sections, and it's basically a way a company is saying, hey, we know this tool is not specified by the OEM, but it works for us for whatever reason. We've done a risk assessment, we've done an engineering assessment on it, and we feel
00:45:23
Speaker
we can use this tool properly. So we're going to write it into our policies, which that's perfectly fine. If you vetted this tool and the company says, we accept the risk and we feel it's safe.
00:45:34
Speaker
then knock yourself out. But that's usually not the case because management of change seems to be, or people feel that it's a very long drawn out process, which from my experience is generally not. People who run management of change in large companies or even small companies are ecstatic when people come to them and say, hey, we want to do this right. We just don't want to hide this in someone's locker till we need it and then hope it doesn't break and kill somebody.
00:46:03
Speaker
But oh yes, I've seen a lot of it, I've seen it all, and I refuse to allow it to be used in my classes.
00:46:10
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, makes sense. I could have used that term when I was just starting out in my safety career in my 20s when, you know, people would, I'd be like, what, what is that thing on the side of the forklift? Oh, that's where we, so-and-so sits because it's a long drive out to the field. You can't put two people on the forklift. I could have used that term, management of change for that little, little add-on seat here.
00:46:40
Speaker
Oh, yes. Speaking of evaluating or inspecting, it is always funny to me to see how people react. I'm a huge people person. I know that sounds strange, but I'm a huge people person, and I love to just see their mannerisms and how they react. And whenever you're evaluating or inspecting, you can see when people are doing something that they're putting on a show, and you can see what every day really what we do.
00:47:09
Speaker
and it is it is just so easy to find people who are trying to put on the show because OSHA is here or the safety man's here or the auditor the insurance person yeah oh yes and i've seen people break out in sweats um i've seen people almost doing rock paper scissor to see who has to use the special tool in front of the auditor and
00:47:35
Speaker
And right at that moment, that's when I'm like, oh, let's have some fun with this. Hey, what you doing? Yeah, certainly. Yeah, certainly an opportunity to teach. Yes. And that is.
00:47:47
Speaker
The very important part about being a safety professional is that it's always a learning opportunity. You know, because no one, no, I found in my experience, no one goes out on the job and says, you know what, I'm going to do a horrible job. Yeah. I want to get hurt today. Nobody says that. Nobody sets out for that. Yeah. No one says, Hey, I'm going to lose a finger and the company's going to pay me 5,000 for it. No, no one does that. Right. Right. So it's always an opportunity. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:13
Speaker
So Jim, when you started early in your life, maybe prior to your military service, growing up, what did you think you wanted to do? Okay. Depending on when you asked me,
00:48:32
Speaker
Yeah, age four is probably firefighter. Okay. By age 12, it was probably millionaire. Let's see. Is that an occupation? Okay. If it is, I'm still looking for it. I know, me too. At age 16, it really turned into a military professional. Yeah. I come from a military family, multiple generations. Yeah.
00:48:59
Speaker
It was, you know, during the height of the cold war, I'm dating myself a little bit, dad served, grandpa served, uncle served. Yeah. But I wanted to serve in a different way. I'm like, I want to be involved with airplanes. Yeah. And I went to college prior to the military and I didn't want to fly. I'm like, I want to, I want to do something with my hands, get a skill, be valuable to my country. So it's about 16 is when I'm like,
00:49:28
Speaker
I want to be the smartest person in my family. And I also want to have some skills dealing with airplanes. And it was just like one, two, three, go from there. And from there, the safety drama, as you called it, unfolded. Oh yes, rapidly unfolded. What an interesting journey you've been on.
00:49:49
Speaker
Well, thank you. And it's not over. There are new challenges every day. It seems like if in the safety world, if we find a solution for one problem, they'll find a bigger problem. Yeah. And it's just super
Staying Updated with OSHA and Community Resources
00:50:03
Speaker
challenging. And what I love about the safety world is there's so many resources out there. Like the OSHA website is, oh my God, it's amazing.
00:50:12
Speaker
Not very many people say that, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's my first stop. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, just about anything safety-wise you need to create, go to the general industry. That's a really good starting point. Jim, what other resources do you use and go to to help you stay up to date and educate yourself? Because I think that's a powerful thing to share with our audience as well. OK.
00:50:40
Speaker
Over here, because I'm in Houston, Texas, University of Texas has a very strong safety program. They are one of the OSHA certifiers for outreach. And I use them as a resource as much as possible for continuation courses, continuation credits, all that. So there's formal education for it, the OSHA websites, and also a lot of different blogs, chats.
00:51:07
Speaker
engineering websites, anything where there's a community that we can discuss or we can have forward thinking and just real live
00:51:17
Speaker
Real live conversation, so to speak. So you might be part of community groups to be able to share information back and forth and ask best practice questions. Yes, absolutely. And it is amazing. The safety community wants to talk, and I love that. Everyone wants to share experiences or say, hey, these are some of the issues I'm having.
00:51:39
Speaker
so on and so forth. So you really remain forward with the trends of safety and also some of the solutions too. Yeah, we're very willing to share, very willing to share. So thank you for sharing today, Jim. This has been very educational for me and hopefully for our audience too. I really appreciate it.
Conclusion and Community Engagement
00:52:02
Speaker
Little problem, Jill. Thank you for having me. Yeah. And so just as we're wrapping up, if you've been paying attention and listening and this sounds like something you need to be doing to enhance the safety at your facility, remember some of those key words that Jim shared were craft training and to insert the word for whatever craft it is you're looking for. So electrical craft training, mechanical craft training. Am I getting that right, Jim?
00:52:31
Speaker
Yes ma'am. Yeah and industrial skills training would be something else to be to be searching for as well. So Jim thanks again for being a guest really appreciate having you here. Awesome thank you.
00:52:45
Speaker
And thank you all for spending your time listening today. And more importantly, thank you for your contribution, making sure your workers, including your temporary workers, make it home safe every day. If you'd like to join the conversation about this episode or any of our previous episodes, follow our page and join the Accidental Safety Pro community group on Facebook.
00:53:05
Speaker
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00:53:31
Speaker
If you have a suggestion for a guest, including if it's yourself, please contact me at social at vividlearningsystems.com. Special thanks to Will Moss, our podcast producer. Until next time, thanks for listening.