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Luke Nelson: Smarter Injury Prevention for Trail Runners
472 Plays5 days ago
Trail running is tough on the body — but most injuries don’t happen by chance. They happen from overload, poor communication, or the wrong kind of rehab.
In this episode, James sits down with Luke Nelson, sports chiropractor, running coach, educator and podcaster, to unpack what true injury prevention really looks like for trail runners.
They explore how to manage training load, why ankle sprains are rarely “simple,” the science of staying fit while injured, and how specific strength and plyometric work can make you more resilient on the trails.
Whether you’re chasing your first ultra or your next podium, this conversation will change how you think about running healthy, strong, and injury-free.
***Don’t forget, use code PEAK at Bix’s website for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
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License code: K08PMQ3RATCE215R
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Transcript
Introduction: Meet Luke Nelson
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Peep Shoots podcast. My name is James Sieber and today we're going to steer away from the more athlete-centered interviews that we bring to you weekly and go down the clinician's route.
00:00:26
Speaker
Today we have Luke Nelson on who's a sports chiropractor, also a running coach, educator and has over 20 years experience, was Australian chiropractor of the year in the past and has a specialty now of working with runners both road and trail. Now If you listen to the weekly show, Luke's name may sound familiar to you. He is the practitioner that's been taking me through this year dealing with both femoral shaft stress fractures that I've been managing. But that isn't why we have Luke on. We have Luke on because he is a subject matter expert in this field.
00:00:58
Speaker
He is amazing at distilling down complex areas into very easy to process information. And I've personally learned a lot from having him as a friend and professional partner along with my
Trail Running Demands and Podcast Launch
00:01:10
Speaker
coaching. In this episode, we're going to dive deep into trail running.
00:01:13
Speaker
It isn't as broad as we were initially planning because we did go really deep on quite a few topics. So the plan is definitely to have a part two in the very near future. But we go into the specific demands of trail, like the terrain, the elevation, how that impacts the training load, how that impacts your body.
00:01:30
Speaker
We go into some of the more common injuries that you might see, like ankle sprains, and go into how to manage them, where the common pitfalls might be, and where you may... be able to get back a bit sooner or need to be a bit more careful when you are coming back into training.
00:01:45
Speaker
There's a lot in here, whether you are a coach or a runner or a practitioner, it's really interesting to see this multidisciplinary model that's kind of forming and how a sports chiropractor may be, in Luke's case, have a specialty now in calf and Achilles. So it's really fascinating. I learned a lot in this interview.
00:02:03
Speaker
Luke is really good at speaking, recently launched his own podcast as well. So he knows what to do. i hope you enjoy this
James' Experience and Luke's Multidisciplinary Approach
00:02:08
Speaker
one and I'll see you on the other side. Luke Nelson, welcome to the PPC's podcast. It's great to have you on. Thank you for doing this.
00:02:15
Speaker
Thanks, James. It's a real honour to be on. I know we've had had some great chats in the past, so but um none of them have been recorded. So this will be the first time this is going out to going out to the masses. So I look forward to talking all things running with you today.
00:02:29
Speaker
Definitely. I feel like it's probably a good thing that they haven't been recorded in the past. but Yeah, that's right. No, no, that's good. No, we're we're all all positive things to say. that so But no, we've had some had some really good discussions and and certainly things that have, have um yeah, helped grow me as a clinician and a coach and in our in our chats together. So, yeah, looking forward to today.
00:02:49
Speaker
Definitely. So for a bit of context to the listeners, everyone would have heard a bit of an intro about you before um this main part has
How Did Luke Become a Sports Chiropractor?
00:02:57
Speaker
started. But you are the practitioner that's been treating me for my double femoral shaft stress fractures that have happened happened this year.
00:03:06
Speaker
um And in that process, I've definitely learned a lot, stuff that I've been able to then translate into people that I've been coaching, whether from a strength perspective, an intervention perspective, a like communication style perspective as well about what what is important, what the realistic timeframes, what specific stuff from a loading perspective. So I thought it'd be really great to have you on.
00:03:28
Speaker
You obviously have massive extensive experience and you do cross quite a few different I guess, silos that would typically be be independent. And so kind of do do provide this opportunity to have a detailed conversation where you are able to go into the nuances of different subjects. So for the listeners, that's kind of why I've asked Luke to come on here. We have some ideas of where you want this to go, but we will yeah see where it takes us. Absolutely, yeah.
00:03:55
Speaker
So to start off with, want you to go into a little bit about yourself, how specifically, like I'm curious how you became ah chiropractor, like what drove you into there and then how you've seen yourself end up into this sports chiropractic kind of multifaceted practitioner?
Focusing on Running Injuries
00:04:10
Speaker
So i get my interest in chiropractic began when I was in high school and I i pretty early on from year nine. So i was probably the age of 14, 15. I got really interested in in health and learning about the body. And we did a ah subject at school, theory of PE, which I really enjoyed. And so I'd sort of started to be drawn towards a ah health sciences point of view and and then I did my work experience at a quite a big physiotherapy practice here and in Melbourne quite a well-known sports medicine practice and then we had a careers evening think the following year in year 11 and and that there was a chiropractor there and sort of talking about some of the things that he did and i'm like oh oh, that sounds interesting. i well
00:04:51
Speaker
I'll come down and can I come and observe you and and watch watch what you do? and And so I went down there and and and shadowed him for for half a day and I'm like, oh, this is really cool. And obviously I had the experience of working at a physio or um ah doing my work experience there for a week in a physio clinic and I really liked, I think what drew me to the chiropractic side of things was it was it was very much more one-on-one. I think that the the practice that I went to And it things are a little bit different these days, but they had, you know, a lot of stalls and it was just going from one stall to another and putting on machines and all that sort of stuff. And I didn't quite like that as much as that sort of, you know that focused time with that one person in front of you and just seeing all the different variety of conditions that that that i that I saw in that time.
00:05:34
Speaker
And then I was also having at that stage also was having some migraine headaches too. So there's a bit of ah a personal experience there as well that I was then im able to get treatment for for that which which gave me some some good relief. So there was a bit of that and and I pretty much knew then by you know by year 11 I knew that that's what I wanted to what i wanted to do. And yeah, I was lucky to get in straight out of a high school and did the five years. and um Throughout that time, you know I've always been um yeah quite active and playing sports, you know never really excelling in anything in particular, but just really loved the sports and and the competitive nature of it. and and so I ah sort of guess naturally got drawn to to that area towards the latter part of my studies and then
00:06:16
Speaker
Early out of out of university, i I did a sports chiropractic seminar and and put on by an organisation named Fix.
From Chiropractor to Coach: Luke's Journey
00:06:23
Speaker
And that sort of just blew my mind in terms of, oh, there's a whole and other world out here are stuff that that I don't know. And that sort of really then began my drive down the the sort of the sports and sports medicine site side of of things.
00:06:35
Speaker
And then ah gradually over time in practice, I've been in practice now for just over 20 years and gradually and over time, I sort of built ah a greater percentage of of sports base in in my in my practice. So, you know, for a long time, I was seeing just what would be considered general chiropractic. So things like neck pain, back pain and headaches, you know, a lot of those. and But then, yeah,
00:06:56
Speaker
greater, greater, greater amounts of of of sports injuries then over time. And then then sort of, was it six years ago, six years ago now, I sold out of that practice, I think was six or seven now, sold out of that practice to to be where I am now, where I'm really purely focused on on sort of sports and and with ah with a strong ah influence on on runners. and That sort of came, I think, from my personal experience and and really falling in love with with running over the last
00:07:24
Speaker
15 so years, 16, I'd sort of been getting more into running progressively at that time. So, yeah, I sort of realised, you know, that they were the people that I like to surround myself with. Like I really enjoyed that and so, yeah,
00:07:39
Speaker
um I was then in a position to create that environment to have more of those people. Like it's like, well, who are the people that I love to to treat and and like to be around? And and that's ah that that's runners. And not to say for all my non-running patients out there, I still love you too. that's that right we're not listening now No, that's exactly right. They won't be listening or running podcast. So no, I don't like them. If you could please leave. But but it was, um yeah, it was it was sort of, again, being in a position where I could dictate who I who i sort of wanted to to see and and then so niching down more into that ah into into that path and then sort of then progressing over time, sort of adding more coaching and strength coaching into my, I guess, and into my my bow, is the tools and and and different hats that I that i wear and in the practice. so So, yeah, it's sort of been a gradual gradual path down the down the running track.
00:08:28
Speaker
And so we met on the one of the Australian athletics courses yeah last year. when When did the coaching side come in and like how how did you find that transition from taking people from, because I'm i'm guessing it was very much a stem of you've you've helped people rehabilitate them, you've potentially done the return to run program for them. And then they're like, well, what now?
Coaching Influence on Rehabilitation
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah, and that's exactly right. Like I sort of saw that, ah that you know, that that separation from, and you know, how are you saying that? Because I've just started a podcast of my own and I was sort of thinking of the name for it and and the name that I came up from was was the Rehab Runway, but it was, you know from the from the table to the track and that sort of where I found myself as a clinician being stuck is that yeah okay you've got in the room stuff on the table and then what do they do next like what do they do go and do out on the on the on the running track so that sort of realizing that I didn't know enough about that then I started to pursue further knowledge down that down that path so sort of my my progression into coaching I guess started from
00:09:33
Speaker
Yeah, again, just sort of saying, oh, we'll go out and 15 minutes, then we might do, you know, 20 minutes or what have you. and And to then now, I actually, you know, structured programs. So it's sort of been a gradual process over the last, well, trying to think, I guess, like officially coaching would have been,
00:09:49
Speaker
know, would have been five or six years ago, I think they would have started started on that. I'd have to look back and see see how early then. But um that was, ah yeah, that was sort of at a start of that journey. and And then really enjoying that side of things. Like I think one of the reasons why I do what I do is to, you know help people achieve their goals. So whether that's,
00:10:09
Speaker
you know, whether that's running a 5K PR, whether that's, you playing able to play with their grandkids, you know, whatever that might be, is helping them achieve their goal. And and I think the coaching side of things just became an extension of that. That once i was able to get people, you know, i back to doing what they want, then it's just like, all right, we've taken you back to running. Now let's take you to performance and and sort of, you you know, then working and working their way up there to to get the best out of themselves. And that that's what of sort of, i think my philosophy as well too, like I, you know, I guess one of my mottos is that, you know, the pursuit of excellence in in whatever you do. So, you know, there's no end point to that because there's no, yeah you know, oh yes, I've reached the reached the pinnacle. It's just always continuing to to improve yourself. And and so, ah yeah, very much.
00:10:52
Speaker
I try and adopt that that philosophy and in what I do and and I guess then trying to you know impart that onto others and and encourage them on on their journey as well.
Overlap of Skills in Health Professions
00:11:01
Speaker
So I found that the coaching was was really good.
00:11:03
Speaker
And it also like, I mean, I would love it if all my runners would have coaches like yourself, but you know, a lot don't. So a lot, a lot it's it's always great when I'm working with you know, working with someone that's got ah that's got a good coach and i'm I'm lucky enough to work with with a number like yourself because I know that, okay, like the running side of things is going to be is going to be good. And even when I'm seeing, you know, even when I'm seeing these patients for the first time, like there's often ah a discussion about, you know, what might have gone wrong from a training load perspective. And usually when they're left to their own devices, they're doing stupid stupid stuff. Can we swear on this podcast?
00:11:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's fine. Stupid shit. Okay. um They're doing stupid shit and and and I'm like, what made you think you could you know you could do that? And so when we've got coaches there that that are doing it, it's it's very unlikely unless that if they haven't been very compliant with what they've been given and they've gone just they've gone rogue, in which which which can happen.
00:11:55
Speaker
um But that's why i do I do enjoy working with coaches because they they can handle that side of things. And I think it also... And that's good then to build a team around the around the individual and, you know, they they take the the running side of things and I take from a from a health and and injury side of things and and making sure that that that everything's okay in that regard. So, um yeah, so so I guess then going back to that, the fact that, you know, a lot don't then have the coaches, then it became to the, um you know, if they wanted to, then that was what I would, the the role that I would take on afterwards.
00:12:26
Speaker
And how do you feel like you're, experience knowledge now working as a coach has potentially impacted how you treat people? Yeah, it's a good question. And and something I'm actually um just in discussions about one of the the podcasts I'm going to do is with a sort of a well known physio and and talking about um about how you know how our practice has changed over the years. And that's certainly something that has changed with mine. I mean, the the the like ah ah you know doing a ah load analysis, so look like working out what they've done and then prescribing load is is a really important part when it comes to when it comes to to sports because
00:13:04
Speaker
you know, you might have the best, you might know what's going on. You might say, well, the diagnosis is patellofemoral pain, but then, you know, how do you get them out of that? And and for for most musculoskeletal conditions, the, you know, one of the the key cornerstones is is load management and rehabilitation. so So I think that, you know, with my my coaching and and learning about,
00:13:25
Speaker
you know, just progressive overload and, and you know, periodisation, all those sort of things there has then enabled me to to put that into into to managing all sorts of injuries, even even in non-runners as well too.
00:13:36
Speaker
So, um yeah, so so i think it I think it has developed me as a clinician and that's, I think, something that I've that i've changed more um more of. um And, you know I do a combination of hands-on work and hands-off, which is, you know, like that there's a whole sort of debate in the,
00:13:53
Speaker
the the health field at the moment and so you know whether you should hands on hands off and i think i think I'm a big fan of both of know I've learned a lot of hands on manual therapy when I was going through through university and still and still use a lot of that but but there's some patients that that I don't do anything on it's all rehab based or do telehealth where I'm um you know not even in the same room as ah as ah as the person so I think that that's um yeah again that the evolution of of me as ah as ah as a practitioner over the last 20 years.
00:14:22
Speaker
It definitely surprised me when I came in to see you. Like we've done
How to Choose the Right Practitioner?
00:14:25
Speaker
a mix of telehealth and in person. And i think that there's this preconceived idea in my mind of what a chiropractor does and is. And even thinking about sports chiropractics and how the sports medicine and chiropractic fields can kind of blend. I wasn't really sure.
00:14:39
Speaker
And then i came in and it was, the best way to to church say it was like it was seeing a biomechanist an osteo and chiro in one room that also like really understands sport and it's quite a unique experience do you do you feel like that the way you've created or the kind of way you've gone is that just your personal pursuit of excellence has kind of taken you to this point or is this more of a is is this more of an industry-wide thing for for sports chiros now I think it's it's it's it's certainly a bit of both. Like I think there's across you know really all all health professions now, there's there's a almost like a blurring between the lines now between, you know, chiro, osteo, physio, myotherapy, you know, all these professions there that there is, you know, exercise physiology as well.
00:15:26
Speaker
ah there's a lot of now we're we're learning a lot of the same content. So we're, you know, attending seminars that are put on by, you know, organizations like Sports Medicine Australia. You know, I i teach and my running course to a variety of professions, you know, podiatrists and osteos, chiros, physios.
00:15:44
Speaker
So there's this real breaking down of silos that's existed over the years. So traditionally it's been like, oh yes, you've got back pain, then you go and see, you know, go and see a chiro. You've got knee pain, when you go and see a physio. but now there's just like it it now really comes down to the skills of the of the practitioner so if if a practitioner has got it's not not so much about their title but more about more about their experience in their area of expertise and so initially like when i first started going to sports medicine australia conferences a long a long time ago this was you know pretty soon after graduating you know i remember we were at ah at a seminar they were talking about there was a surgeon and and a physio talking about shoulder
00:16:22
Speaker
and i was just chatting to just some random physios in in the yeah in the the lunch break and and and one of them said, oh, you know, you're a chiro. I'll say, how would you use this stuff? And I'm like, well, how would you use it? And so there was, that's pretty much like, again, it's it's just now that that was, you know, 15 years ago and things have changed now that it's just like, oh, yep, you can have osteos, chiros, physios, podiatrists all in the same room and and no one really bats an eyelid. So it's just like, yeah, everyone everyone sort of acknowledges now that that there is this this sort of area the the evolution of all the professions. And I think ultimately that's a um a good thing for the patients because it means then that they're getting the best best available care it doesn't matter where that's come from and and that's again i don't care who i'm learning from whether i'm learning from running coach whether i'm learning from a an osteo podiatrist chiro like i'll just i'll take if it's good i'll i'll take it in so and that and that's what i'm sort of seeing now with
00:17:15
Speaker
you know, getting involved in areas that traditionally chiropractors haven't been involved in, but it's it sort of there's more and more doors opening to to that now. So it's it's certainly, yeah, it's changed. um And ah i've I've certainly, again, and my my personal philosophy is it's like, well, I don't necessarily, like, again, if it's if it's going to benefit my patients, so I'll learn it.
Trail Running Challenges and Injuries
00:17:37
Speaker
I don't care if it's been, if that particular, you know, approach has been developed by an osteo or a physio or a chiro, it doesn't worry me.
00:17:45
Speaker
yeah one of the questions that we're going to come to today which fits in quite nicely here is how to actually choose a practitioner one of the things as a coach I struggle the most with is my athletes are across the whole country so international and when something goes wrong because as we'll talk about running is an incredibly high load for our bodies and we can't always negate as much as people might say injury and not prevention it doesn't it doesn't exist really but trying trying to then look at who who treats in their area, go on the website, it's trying to determine, you might go on their socials. Like how how would you suggest someone does try and get, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's sort of hard without like without knowing the person. I think that they like in any sort of, I guess you have to develop that relationship. Like the coaches that ah that I work with,
00:18:33
Speaker
it's been developed over over a period of time. And and um you know I guess having ah sometimes having a discussion with that with that person, so whether that's you know you've got a runner in that area, you know whether you reach out to them with an email just sort of asking about what their their approach might be, that they've got the runner.
00:18:50
Speaker
um And then, you know, I guess the with socials these days, it's a bit, so you can get a bit better of an understanding of what someone might be might be like in terms of their their approach.
00:19:01
Speaker
um But it is, yeah, it certainly, it can be, well, it's not, in terms of um a minefield, not the right word, but there are, i mean, like any profession, there's good ones and bad ones out there. So I think that you want a health professional that understands runners. They don't have to be a runner themselves. Like I ah treat patients in sports that I've never do. like ah strongman competition, I'd try and lift those weights, my shoulders would rip off. So, you know, but but having an understanding about what they do and and and asking them about it, like, I think that that's that's really important. Like, if you're seeing a health professional that doesn't, is not a runner themselves, but they're but they're asking you about it. They're sort of saying, all right, what what sort of how much training you're doing, you know, what days you're doing on, all this sort of stuff, you know, where
00:19:42
Speaker
what What sort of goals have you got? they sort of There's a lot of common principles that apply to everyone regardless of what of what sport you're doing. And then yes, there's certain nuances around running like shoes and and that sort of stuff. But but um but you don't need you know you don't need someone that's that's an expert in in their area to be out it to be able to help someone with it. So yeah that's what I sort of say to to you know again teaching my in my courses. You don't have to be a runner to understand you know understand running injuries.
00:20:05
Speaker
um So I think, yeah, honestly, the best way is to, you know, either ask someone, like I'm um always happy to, if if someone needs, you know, reach out to me and and says, you know, who have you do you know anyone in this particular town? Because I've thankfully developed ah quite a good network in around Australia, but also around around the world now and in knowing people to send to. And and and so, yeah, that's it it can sometimes sometimes come to just just sending them a ah contact and and asking them about it. So, and, you know, one of those,
00:20:33
Speaker
some Some of the things you don't you don't want, I guess, as a you know as a coach sending to to other you know other have talk to health professionals is know someone someone that's archaic and saying, what are you running for? You shouldn't be running on this. Running's bad for your knees. Yeah.
00:20:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's that sort of stuff. Stop running. Yeah, you shouldn't, shouldn't, should never be doing this. You've got a degenerative knee, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that's always a bit of a nightmare when you, when you do that. And that can be, that can be super harmful too, because then this, you know, call that nocebic language in that, you know, they're putting all this, this, these thoughts in the runner's head of, well, actually, yeah, if I do run on this in my,
00:21:13
Speaker
knee is going to wear away. So it can be actually quite, tight quite dangerous seeing, seeing people like that. um yeah And generally, generally allied health is, is not too bad for that. um GPs are often some of the worst for that. You know, they're often seeing someone with knee pain and sending them straight to a surgeon without without any sort of formal assessment.
00:21:34
Speaker
um I had one yesterday. so um Yeah, so that's that's often not the yeah the the the first step. So i'd I'd say they're generally self so generally safer going to it to an allied health, unfortunately.
00:21:47
Speaker
And that's no slant on the medical profession. Like they do a great job. Like they've got a they've got such a hard job to know everything about everything. They just can't specialise in the musculoskeletal system. And that's where allied health um becomes becomes important for that.
00:22:00
Speaker
Yeah.
The Unique World of Trail Running Events
00:22:01
Speaker
Yeah. Your first podcast episode, which stem I saw the same post was a plastic surgeon. Oh, no. All the then then the negative things that can happen, including, is that your skin can start sagging? Yeah, your skin sagging. that that's I've never heard that one before. And you get shorter as well, too. That was that was another one that i'd I'd never heard of. So I don't know where on where on earth he'd.
00:22:25
Speaker
he'd pluck those at those ones from certainly the the knees you know the knees and the and the hips I've heard those I've heard that before um but there there was a new one about the skin sagging so yeah I'm like i don't know like i look at myself in the mirror after I saw that oh yeah he's he's right it's uh know of course nothing to do with me getting older at all just just the fact that I'm um that I'm running so yeah so I might have to yeah, book in for my facelift at some stage in the future.
00:22:49
Speaker
But yeah, it just just stupid stuff like that. And it was it was good to see actually that someone else asked me about it after the podcast. Someone said, oh, where was that clip? And I sent it to them and I looked at the comments since then and and overwhelmingly like negative people ripping through and saying it's a joke, you know, that if've you've actually said this. So yeah, so it's good to see that again, the um that social media wins there with with people um people yeah yeah refuting it.
00:23:14
Speaker
Yes, I'd hope that there are enough enough people saying like what we're seeing, that that it's kind of common common sense that now this isn't going to be some detrimental impact to your both joints, but also to your skin and everything else.
00:23:30
Speaker
But yes, it is does does say something about you do have to be careful who you do follow and listen to on social media. Yeah, that's very true, very true. All right. So we are, we do have you on to speak about the specifics of trail running. Obviously we are a trail running podcast in in your coaching. I know that you also work with but trail runners. You dabble yourself.
00:23:50
Speaker
Have you ever done, know you've done two bays. Have you done anything else apart from two bays? No, no, and that's where I was like, well, you know, that the the the true trail runners would say, well, that's not really a trail runner. And I say that, you know, I do often say that's a road a road friendly trail. It's a great run. I do that every, do the 28 every year. I have done the 56. I have said that I would do it.
00:24:08
Speaker
I will do 100 at some point. I've i've still got. a few things I want to tick off from marathons and and probably next year. So maybe maybe looking at 27, I might be looking at doing that. So I definitely want to get 100 done. but um But yes, yes, no, I do.
00:24:23
Speaker
um It's funny, actually, I put it i put a yeah ah picture of me taking my dog out for a run the other day and we were on some on some trails and someone said, oh, he's gone to the he's gone to the dark side. So it's it's funny you get this sort of between the road runners and and the trail runners there. But I actually remember my first first run at two bays, which actually might have been, I'm trying to think whether I went straight into the 56. I think I actually did. I think the first run I did there was the 56, the first time down there. and And it was just like, after having run road races for, for a number of years, it was, it was, it was really weird. It's like, oh, like people actually talking to me and you know, you,
00:24:57
Speaker
you're sort of, you know, going up, walking up some of these hills and you're just chatting away to the people next to you. It's like, wow, this is just so so different. So, you know, I got to see, I'm like, oh, so this is this is why people, you know, love and enjoy this ah this sport. So it is it is a very different, it's a different vibe, but really and in in a good way. So, yeah. um But, yes.
00:25:16
Speaker
Yeah, no, I'll avoid going on too big of a tangent about about that. but No, that's true. That's true. yeah Don't want to get you too rolled up. Yeah, no, I also i find interesting. I was at a gravel biking event a couple weekends ago, and it's the same story there. Speaking to those guys, they say that from the road to the dirt, essentially, it's a very different type of person that gets drawn to it. And therefore, it's a different type of experience. Not saying that like one is better than the other, but it just depends on what you're
Injury Profiles: Trail vs. Road Runners
00:25:40
Speaker
looking for. And ands i think that's where the variety really comes in.
00:25:42
Speaker
But I will stop myself there. Yeah, and and look, and and that's the great thing about running though too. Yeah, like you've got so many, you know, subsets within running. You've got, you know, i mean, running forms of ah fundamental part of of all sorts of sports in in in Australia. But then you've got you got trails, you've got track, you've got, um you know, you've got ultras, you've got road running. So there's there's lots of, you know lots of lots of ways you can take it, which is which is why it's such ah such a cool sport.
00:26:06
Speaker
Definitely. And I think that there's a really big correlation between becoming a good runner can then take you onto anywhere and training on multiple surfaces, multiple surfaces, depending on what, like no matter what you actually do, which yeah leaves me nicely into from a trail running perspective, what, what are the specific considerations we're talking about biomechanically, physiologically that, that make trail running unique?
00:26:33
Speaker
Well, I guess that the the two things that make it different to to road running is one, the the surface. So it's often, you know, an unstable andt or ah less or more unstable surface, different, you know, um firmness as well too. And then two is the is the elevation.
00:26:52
Speaker
Probably the third one in there as well too is if you know a lot of people that do trails are working towards you know longer distances, so ultra distances as well too. So we've got we've got that that to consider as well in terms of there are people out there for a long time on on feet so that they might be doing a large volume in terms of time and also, and and the um but the but the biggest thing is the is the elevation and the and the change of change of surfaces that um that we've got to consider when working with trail runners.
00:27:19
Speaker
When you have a trail runner come through into the clinic and you're talking to them, are there any different considerations or and different kind of things that you need to communicate with them about the specific demands of trail?
00:27:30
Speaker
Yeah, so there are like in in terms of, there's probably a few things like from it from a training load training load history, we're looking at and and in its simplest sense, when you're when you're dealing with a runner and you're looking at their looking at their training, I mean, one of the simplest things you can do is look at their Strava, you know, and and open up this, you get them to open up their Strava and and just look at the Strava bars. Now,
00:27:51
Speaker
The limitation with that is that it will only show you show you distance. So will only show you that the training volume. it doesn't It doesn't show you intensity. So that's that's an ah for you know that's an an issue with just relying on on that.
00:28:04
Speaker
But the other thing that we want to look at from um from trail runners is is looking at the elevation changes as well too. So you know that that how they've gone from week to week. Because sometimes we see big spikes in terms of you know they've they've gone really, they've had a ah big week in in elevation bigger than what they that they normally have and and sometimes just looking at the mileage itself well you won't you won't notice that so from a training like perspective we we won't certainly want to be keeping an eye on on what they're doing from an elevation point of view from the surfaces so there's there are certainly like in terms of the injury rates between road running and trail running there's there's no studies that have
00:28:40
Speaker
compared that they have have involved you know two different groups and they're comparing them side by side so really all we've got to go on is studies that have looked at injuries in trial running and studies have looked at injuries in road running and the the um the injury rates are fairly close actually so they're they're fairly fairly similar in terms so one one group is not more prone to to injury um injury profile injury profile can be a little bit different i mean we tend to see all the injuries that road runners get, you will see that in trail
Effective Ankle Sprain Rehabilitation
00:29:09
Speaker
runners. So your tendinopathies, you know, your patellofemoral pains, your, you know, your your medial tibial stress, your bone stress injuries, you know, all those sort of things you will see in trail runners. I guess the other thing that you will see in trail runners that's a lot more common in ankle sprains. So you tend to see a lot more ankle sprains in in trail runners than you will in road runners.
00:29:29
Speaker
again, due to that that unstable surfaces, you know training for long periods of time, fatigue, you know tripping hazards, that that sort of stuff. And then the other thing you see is traumatic injury so you know from fall. So you know flagship fractured wrist, clavicles, broken ribs, concussions, that sort of stuff. You don't tend to see a lot of those in track runners unless they're getting in some sort of blue mid mid-race it's ah for cutting someone off.
00:29:51
Speaker
um so So they're probably the other the other things that we've um that we see in trail runners, those are managing those those traumatic injuries, which thankfully are ah ah few and far between, but they they still happen. I think we all know, um yeah are ourselves that have run on trails or know someone that ah that has come come unstuck and and had a bit of a bit of a tumble. So that's probably the um the other thing that we need to to be aware of because most most injuries that we see in runners are a more chronic in nature or chronic overload so that that means it's sort of you know progressively things have got got more irritated in the area so they're things like your tendinopathies and your and your patellofemoral and patellofemoral pain bone stress injuries they've happened over over a period of time where we say acute injury is something that's that's happened suddenly and that's like your muscle muscle strain so calf strain is probably the biggest one in runners hamstrings not so common you don't tend to see
00:30:42
Speaker
Hamstrings really only go when you're when you're sprinting, so you more see those in your track runners, less so, you know, your distance runners and even probably less so than your than your in your trail runners. And then the other acute injury, as I mentioned, is the the the ankle sprains. So...
00:30:57
Speaker
That's probably the difference in and injury profile between them. so So, yeah, there's probably, you know, when when i'm when I've got them, I'm sort of considering, yeah, what they're what they're doing from a um ah from an elevation point of view and, ah you know, I guess what sort of are they doing all they're running on the trails and mixing things up a little bit too.
00:31:15
Speaker
And then, yeah, the injury profile slightly differs as well. when come back in a second and to talk about like the specific uphill and downhill stress that that does cause in the body. But I think it is important to just spend bit of talking about ankle sprains and how you do kind of treat them, return to run, rehab, is their time off? Because I feel like this is a great, great case of if you were to go to a GP with some of the ankle sprains that we do in trail running, they would say you're not running for 12 weeks and you might need surgery. yeah Whereas we know that's not not the case.
00:31:46
Speaker
No, no, thankfully not. But it's it's one of those ones actually where, you know, and I've done a few few presentations before on on ankle sprains and and the title of my talk is not just a simple ankle sprain because I think that people can get very dismissive over ankle sprains and they think, oh, yeah, it's just a simple ankle sprain. Like I'm just going to rest it up. I'll put it up for a week and then I'll just start running.
00:32:05
Speaker
But ankles are – So there can be a bit tricky and and a couple of reasons why and that it's pretty amazing when you consider like the the size of ah the size of our ankle joint, it's probably, you know, it's small it's smaller than our fist, right? And you've got, you know, the the main ankle joint called the talus there and then you've got your shin bone that's sitting on top of that. now that takes an enormous amount of of force when we're running and and, you know, especially on unstable surfaces there to control that. Like it's a pretty amazing joint when you when you think of it and what it has to do.
00:32:36
Speaker
And unfortunately, when we injure that that, that can be compromised. It can be compromised um from a structural point of view, um but mostly from ah from a ah neurological point of view in terms of in terms of control around that ankle. So we know that, you know, that unfortunately what's called chronic ankle instability ah that that can occur in as much as a third of ankle sprains. So one third, which is pretty high. Like i remember doing, you know, researching this talk years ago and coming and seeing up with this figure. So what that means, what what chronic ankle instability is basically recurrent episodes of of sort of giving way or not having, you know, feeling a bit wobbly on the ankle. So that's one in three.
00:33:13
Speaker
will have chronic ankle instability will develop that. So, you know, that's that's um something we need to consider in that these things need to be properly rehabilitated to to avoid going down that path of, you know, chronically ah chronic issues and and and giving way.
00:33:28
Speaker
um And so that that does entail just more than just more than rest. um i think that Firstly, we need to confirm what the what the structures damaged are because you've got you' got a number of ligaments around the around the ankle. um You've got some on the outside, which are usually the ones that that are injured. And in fact, they're the most commonly sprained um ligaments in the body.
00:33:48
Speaker
ah but then you've also got around the front of the ankle, you've got a a joint called the syndesmosis as well. And that, you know, if there's an involvement of that, that's what we what we call high ankle sprain. So if there's involvement of that, that does, that that can take, that that usually does take longer to to recover.
The Role of Cross-Training in Recovery
00:34:04
Speaker
and And high grades one, unfortunately, does need stabilisation surgery, but um that's rare.
00:34:10
Speaker
ah But those ones, you need to know what you're sort of dealing with to know, all right, yeah, this does need a bit more time, a time off it. I've probably found over time, like I've gone through, ah ah probably went through a phase where I was maybe a little bit too aggressive with with getting ankles back to like trying to get them back to activity and and really not sort of giving them the time to to to restore that, like kind of almost sort of cheating like, oh, yeah, okay, well, you can't you can't jump, you can't hop, but let's see if we can see if we can run.
00:34:36
Speaker
And so i've probably probably over time the thought, yeah, I think we go just a fraction slower on slower on that. And so i tend to work off and with most of my injuries, probably bone stress aside, I work off what's called a criteria-driven rehab. So if you can do this, you go on to this, you go on to this.
00:34:55
Speaker
So you basically tick off criteria along the way versus – a time driven criteria, which is like, oh, at two weeks you do this, at four weeks you do this and at six. Now, the problem with going with ah with a time driven criteria is if if someone is flying through their rehab, then why are you holding them back?
00:35:11
Speaker
And conversely, if someone's not doing very well with their rehab, then you do need to hold them back. So that's why I think having that criteria is different. As I said, bone stress injury is a little bit different, like, because you do have to do the time to essentially for that that bone to bone to heal.
00:35:24
Speaker
and So criteria-based rehab is is is really what I'm about. So the first thing that we want to do with ah with an ankle sprain is ah is is restoring that that normal ankle range of movement um and also being able to weight bear on it as well. Like if we're if if someone is an, I always say, if someone if you're unable to walk properly, so that's without limping and and hobbling,
00:35:45
Speaker
If you can't do that, you need to be on crutches, okay? So you need to be on crutches to to take weight off that off that leg because it's it's just the joint is obviously compromised and you trying to hobble around and it's just going to do is going to do more. more It's just going to delay that the healing there.
00:36:00
Speaker
And you can also pick up bad habits as well. Like I've seen a lot of people after, you know, ankle sprains that, have picked up a limp and they've they've maintained it even though things are doing quite well and you actually have to reach train them just simply walking to to ah to to start to to move properly again. So so crutches until they can they can walk properly, then once they they're able to to walk properly, then we can we can start to ah start to to load it up.
00:36:24
Speaker
In the meantime, I'm saying if they if they are on crutches, we still do some some moving around through there. um just to to try and encourage a bit a bit of blood flow into it. You know, there's maybe some early isometrics as well just to keep a bit of bit muscle activity going there. And we train around the like we train around the ankle. So, you know, they might not be able to do a lot of ankle stuff, but they could certainly work their knee. They can work their hip. They can work the other leg, keep going on that one. So, you know, they can hop on the other side. Why don't why don't we do that? Like we don't want to send people back with, you know, with two weak legs versus versuss one. so So just I'm always a big fan. And that's probably something I've got better at over time is,
00:36:59
Speaker
is just working working around of it's never just a blanket no, it's like, all right, well, we can't do this for now, but what can we do? You know, can we cross train? Can we go, you know, can we bike? Can we swim? And and and think that that's something, again, um I've developed and what some people find, you know, if they go and see, you know, like ah say, I'm not going to throw GPs under the bus, but let's do that. So they see a GP and they just, I'll just rest but rest for three weeks. It's like, well, what can I be doing? I'll just rest.
00:37:27
Speaker
It's like, me ask me can I Can I do weights? Can I lift weights on the other side? Can I get on the bike? So this is again where I think ah I'm always looking for alternatives around. So it's never just a simple, yeah, just go on crutches and you'll be right. It's like, okay, we're on crutches and we're taking weight off this for now, but this is what we can be doing in the meantime to to to train around train around this. So So early on, we can we can be doing those things like bike if if they can if they can tolerate it um and elliptical then if if they can. That's that's usually the the where I try and get them to because it's closer to closer to running but still a lot lower demands on the on the calf and the ankle.
00:38:05
Speaker
yeah um So cross-training is one. Yeah, yeah. when When someone's on a bike, because one of the things I find with cross-training when I give it to people I coach is that our skill level and understanding of how to use equipment is really low like a lot of people actively dislike the bike that's why they run and so they they don't know how to do it are you telling them how to like how to position the heel where to press press for the pedal is there like specifics there Yeah, it's it's if and and firstly, i'll I'll ask them, I'll say, look, there's, you know, we've got an option here to cross train. Number one, have you got access to that? And number two, do you do you want to do it?
00:38:43
Speaker
And some will stop me right there and say, no, I don't have a bike and I don't want to do it. and I'm like, okay, that's fine. um So you always give that option and just know that you know you're saying, look, the reason why we're giving you this is to just to maintain a bit of cardiovascular fitness so that when you return, you're you're doing all right. And so some people, some people, again, like really highly motivated runners that have got a really key race coming up and you know they want to do everything they can to do it will be like, yep, that's fine. I'll go and get a gym pass and I'll go and I'll go and I'll do that.
00:39:09
Speaker
where others are just like, nah, I'm not too fast. If it takes me an extra five days and I'm a little bit like you know little less fit, than then then so be it. So that's the first question is I'm asking that. And then secondly, yeah, then it comes comes down to to the instructions there. So if we're dealing with an ankle sprain, then yeah, pedaling through the heel, so having the foot a bit more forward on the pedal um will will take a bit less exercise.
00:39:30
Speaker
will take some demand off the the the ankle and the calf. So you can certainly give some pedaling
Cross-Education in Injury Recovery
00:39:35
Speaker
instructions through there. And obviously sitting down, ah you know, not so not standing not getting out of the saddle, not getting out and stand and standing up there, um you know, pedaling mainly with the other side. and And sometimes if they're, you know, if they're in a boot or they can't they can't move them, we just have them pedaling with the other leg if they they want to be doing want to be doing that.
00:39:51
Speaker
So, yeah, there's there's an element of structure. And so some will, some won't with with that. And again, I'm not i'm not judging anyone. it's it's it's you know it's It's up to them. I think that's something I've learned over time as well is not trying to you know impart on people what I would do, but it's it's you know it's it's educating them, but then giving them options to how important this this this thing is to them. They'll they'll then dictate what what how how much they want to invest into it.
00:40:16
Speaker
i think I'm a good example of this at the moment is that the first time that we were going through my rehab, I was pretty anti using the bike. I was quite happy to have the extra loss of fitness because in my mind, it's yes, it was 12, 13 weeks that we had to completely offload me, but it's not that long.
00:40:34
Speaker
And ah historically I haven't particularly enjoyed using the bike it's always been a form of rehab it's never been a form of fun and fitness whereas this time around and especially because we know that in my my specific case I'm going to have to be on the bike a lot more if I want to have that longer distance aerobic um stimulus that I've really welcomed it and I've enjoyed it and I've realized that I flat out like hate road cycling but put me on the gravel roads and it it it reignites that like exploration adventure passion which I'd lost or have lost for essentially this entire year so I think that yeah it it definitely can can be that kind of short term maybe not but longer term okay I'll i'll i'll find it
00:41:14
Speaker
Yeah, and it sort of, well, it gets it gets you outside too, right? Like a lot of the time, you know, a lot of people and especially trail runners, they they love being out in nature and and getting out, you know, off the roads and and, you know, away from all the cars and the busyness. And and so from a mental side of things, it it can it can tick that box of,
00:41:31
Speaker
of um you know not just sitting in a room and waiting, because we know certainly the impact that that the mental health that that can have on on injuries and even short-term injuries, like not being able to run for for two weeks can can you know can be quite challenging for a lot of people, yeah especially when you're dealing with longer term, it it it certainly it certainly can. so So yeah I think it gives some gives them that ability to yeah get outside. like i don't i mean I had the only injury that I've really missed time off over the years was from, it was a few years ago, think was four years ago now, playing basketball, going back to basketball in my late 30s was probably not the best decision, but um really badly injury my patella tendon, really cooked it. and And that was the only injury that's resulted in time off um running for me over the last well long time now.
00:42:16
Speaker
And I just, yeah, it was so sore to run, but I went to the ride and like, you know, this is actually pretty fun. um You know, I used to ride a lot when I was a kid, just riding around the streets and around the parks and that sort of stuff. And it sort of it brought me back to moving back to to those days. So I actually got to sort of really enjoy it.
00:42:32
Speaker
um and now nowadays, you know, riding with the kids or riding with my son and and which which sort of ticks that ticks that box for me but I'd much rather be running. um So, but but it is, yeah, it is it is, it can and I've had some people actually, I've had i had one patient member in particular who he was, um he became a very good road cyclist off the back of, you know, some chronic knee injuries so he was,
00:42:55
Speaker
He was doing, trying to think what sport he was doing, but he had, you know, he just kept having these knee injuries. And so he just switched to the bike and then got really, really good at it Like he was a national level national level cyclist. So, um yeah, yeah. And so he just developed the love for it. So not to say that everyone everyone does that, but but yeah, there can be they can be some positives too after to doing getting on, you know, to these these injuries sometimes.
00:43:15
Speaker
Yeah, yeah we're not we're not saying the competition level is so low on on the road cycling that you can just become a national level cyclist. No, no, 100%. No, exactly. Just going back to something you mentioned earlier, that I get these questions fielded quite a lot and I'm curious to see how your response is. is When you are injured, in this case an ankle sprain, and then let's say you can't train your right side, whether it's just the lower leg or whether it' for some reason it's that whole side, do you ever worry about the potential asymmetry that could be caused by training the opposite side?
00:43:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's ah it's a good question on that and because that that that inevitably will be asked asked to by um by my my patients as well too. So what we what we know is that as soon as we stop exercise, so say you do that you did an ankle injury, you can no longer run and you can't run on either side now. So what we're seeing is we're seeing a loss of strength in in both sides.
00:44:03
Speaker
Now what I say is, well rather than having to put the the work in, the way I phrase it is the the instead of having to put the work in and build up one side, let's, let's, well, both sides, let's put the work in now and build up the other. And the other amazing thing is we've got this, this um mechanism in our body called the cross-education effect. And and basically what the cross-education effect is, if if we train,
00:44:26
Speaker
one side, we actually get a benefit in the opposite side without even training. And and so what I sort of say and and and explain that and the and the the gains there, I mean, they they're small, but you know, anywhere from the researchers saying anywhere from some some research showing as high as 15% strength gains, most sort of around that five 10 range. so yeah It's small, but it's still it's still something.
00:44:47
Speaker
And so way I explain it is, well, then we work this side and and um and that that side will will also get some you know to stop the decline in strength that we're we're seeing through there. so so And then what will happen is the way that I that i phrase it is that, you know i say your strength levels are here at the moment, left and right.
00:45:05
Speaker
And as we go along, so obviously the the the injured side, that right side is is going to stay down here. The left is is going to go up. But what will happen is that when we start to go back to activity and start to get back into the into the rehab, we'll see them, the the the right the the opposite side won't climb that much anymore. It's really sort of almost getting like, you know, maxing out if you like. but the the injured side's got a long way to improve. And what we'll see is we'll see quite rapidly early on when we resume that the injured side will start to pick up and they will eventually meet meet up down the track. But it's better for them to be meeting up here than to be meeting down here. So so that's where we, you know, it and it also gives, you know, injuries does provide a good opportunity to to really put a good burst of strength in there because, you know, as as runners, that can be a hard thing to do um to ah to to build that that strength and,
00:45:51
Speaker
um You know, when we're we're putting so much time into into our running, we can, um you know, it's our legs are just so tired that we can't go heavy. So these injuries provide ah a good opportunity to to give a really good burst. Like, you know I'll say, let's smash that uninjured side. Like, put you know, who cares if you get DOMS because you don't you don't need to run the next day. So let's let's work that. And then, yeah, and then once we're we're able to, we we build up that injured side to um to meet with the other players.
00:46:18
Speaker
um So there's there's the the cross-education effect and and the same sort of thing goes with with asymmetries as well in general and we can sort of apply this in general in that if someone's got like a stronger or ah a weaker side, um you know, they think, oh, well, I won't work the stronger side. I'll just work the weaker side. It's like, no, no, no, we we we both we want to work both sides.
00:46:37
Speaker
the The stronger side, you know, it won't get better as as quickly as what the weaker side will. So they will eventually meet up meet up through here. So, yeah, I'm a fan of of working, doing as much as you can, essentially, yeah doing as much as you can.
00:46:52
Speaker
And an amazing thing as well, the the very common thing when you are told that you do need some time off, whether it is three days or it is 12 plus weeks, is the immediate fear is, oh my God, i'm going to lose all of my fitness. Right.
00:47:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. When that conversation happens in in a clinic, how how do you approach that with with the client? Yeah, so I guess that's you know with with deconditioning as well too. And and i like we don't lose fitness as quickly as what we think we do. um what What can happen is that you can really, in terms of cardiovascular fitness, like even even having week off,
00:47:25
Speaker
even having a wake off it's a very it's a very small decline at what we what we see there. um And the the changes that we see are more sort of quick changes. There's sort of changes in blood volume. So what happens is that you you know your your your body realizes pretty quickly, it's like, oh, we don't need this blood volume. Let's sort of cut back on this because we don't need to be circulating as much.
00:47:49
Speaker
And so then what happens is then you go back to training and you've still got that smaller blood volume. And and then it's like, what the heck's going on? But very quickly does that that that build up. So often your first run back after, you know, a short period of time off is a bit of a shock, but then it it comes back in quite quite quite quickly.
00:48:05
Speaker
So your cardiovascular demands don't drop that fast um and and you can really lose, you know, you know two to three weeks. start After four weeks, it starts it does start to start to drop off there a bit.
00:48:18
Speaker
um And that's why we want to try and do as much as we can to to maintain that.
Nutrition's Role in Training and Recovery
00:48:23
Speaker
A lot of the research that's looked at it has looked at bed rest and bed rest is like that's the worst kind of rest, right? That's just, you know, laying in a hospital bed doing nothing. That's really bad because you get muscle atrophy all over your body. Whereas, you know, generally with with with our runners when they're injured, they might not be able to run, but they're still living their life. They're moving around, they're walking, you know, hopefully um and still doing stuff. So you don't get all the the just the mass atrophy that you get with being in now being in bed for a period of time.
00:48:50
Speaker
So that's, you know, we want to try and hold on to those gains as much as we can. and that's why we use things like cross-training. Interesting that work around, um you know, that's been talking about hot hot so hot exposure and and heat exposure and, you know, saunas and and hot baths and that sort of stuff having a beneficial effect in helping to maintain that that blood volume loss. so yeah So that's another, you know, another one which I'm always happy to hear because um've I've never liked, you know, the cold.
00:49:15
Speaker
cold baths and cold plunges and and so a lot of the research now is sort of supporting more heat exposure so I'm happy to hear that. don So um yeah, do your Dave Roach get out in your heat in your heat suit and just get out and sit in the sun and and walk around? Yeah, I think even you've even David Roach might admit that he overdid that one um but it is It is an interesting concept because like what whenever I'm thinking about from a performance perspective, we know that like the the ice baths, that the whole idea is is to like restrict and control inflammation, whereas we need that inflammation to be able to adapt to the stress and become fitter and stronger, et cetera. so
00:49:49
Speaker
great for I say if you're doing a stage race or a multi-day thing they're great because they can help you bounce back the next day but not not prolonged when you're mentioning the heat exposure you might not know this question but I know there's a lot of kind of conversation at and the moment between hot water immersion wet sauna dry sauna active heat versus passive do you have like have you dug into much of this no I actually haven't I haven't um I've sort of like we've got an infrared sauna at um at some and our clinic and so um that's that one of the physios and one of the other cars I work with that own that and so I've sort of done a bit more reading in in around that but I but I haven't no I haven't looked at at comparing
00:50:29
Speaker
comparing the difference between them so um no i'm not not sure on that one that's that's probably a a blog for another day i reckon to uh to answer that answer that question so yeah yeah i was like i i have i i have my my ideas from performance perspective but i've never really thought about it from a rehabilitation perspective or a general health perspective so something we can uh we can touch on in the future it's It does also, the cross-training, I think that it has a massive place in a rehab program, but you can overdo it, at least in my mind of what I've seen. So have you ever found or have you worked with people that have just gone way too hard into that at the detriment of their their rehab journey?
00:51:11
Speaker
Well, I think i think that the the prime example for that are are those dealing with a bone stress injury. And, and you know, one of the unfortunate things that that can make runners more prone to that is is what's called RED-S or Relative Energy Deficiency Syndrome or or what what can precede that called low energy availability. and That's basically, in it in its essence, low energy availability is not consuming enough energy to to to meet the demands of of what we're doing, to meet the demands of living and and then and then exercise on top of that.
00:51:43
Speaker
um And so i'm always cautious of those runners that have, number one, they've suffered a bone stress injury, number two, have got either RED-S or LEA, and we take out the running but then they're just replacing it with a truckload of cross-training and conditioning, that then they're still in that energy-depleted state. So it's something that we've got to be quite careful with. And and not not everyone that goes through a bone stress injury is is is is like that, but it's one that I'm certainly that' certainly aware of. um
00:52:17
Speaker
And so then the discussion has to be made. And this is usually when we've involved like a sports dietitian as well too, that's sort of, you know, we can... bounce off and say hey look she's actually doing this can you you know you might not be aware of it this is what she's doing um so you know there was there was one yeah ro one recently where she replaced it with she was doing a truckload of swimming and uh again it wasn't having an impact on on her bone stress injury in the in the the lower body but it was yeah she was just she was like consuming a lot and so that was something that her sports dietitian then had to to take into account that that what she was doing there so
00:52:52
Speaker
So that's one. um so Certainly like you can cross train to the detriment of the injury. So if you obviously do too much on on what we're trying to rehab there, then it then it can it can upset things.
00:53:04
Speaker
It's probably, it's I wouldn't say it happens too often. um Like I wouldn't say, you know, I'd seen too many that have done that throughout their rehab. um So yeah, i did but but it but it certainly can. Yeah, it certainly can. got to keep an eye on their total total training load, not just not just to running and and strength as well.
00:53:23
Speaker
I think the energy availability question or kind of topic, even just in general, the... I've been working with a sports dietitian for this whole process. And the thing that shocked me is how high he still wanted my protein and carb intake day to day support recovery.
00:53:37
Speaker
And it's equivalent to me training probably not my like full full volume, but probably what i've mean I mean if I doing eight to 10 hours a week worth of running. And it's like, wow, okay, if this is the energy availability my body needs to repair and I was to stack on all this cross training, it would be a really hard equation to get right.
00:53:54
Speaker
Yeah, ah it's it's it is. And and look, i'd I'd say most of, well, the the vast majority of of runners that that that I have had that have been in, you know, LEA or Red Air, they haven't done on purpose. They're not, they're not yeah you know, they're not deliberately restricting and they're not restricting intake.
00:54:11
Speaker
They just didn't know how much they had to have. um So that that's a vast majority that I send them off and they're like, wow I was really, like, really under fueling there. um And they're Because, again, it's not something that we were ever taught. And, like, there's no school of, like, you know, there's no school of running. There's no school to say, you know, how you should do things. And that's where, you know, we as coaches and health professionals have got a role to educate our runners in in these sort of things. But, um yeah, there's a lot lot for us for for runners to to be on top of, like, how much they should train, how much they should eat, what they should recover, what they should wear, the shoes, all that, these sort of things there. So, um yeah, there's there's a lot of lot of ways that things can things can go wrong. But, you know, it was actually, there was a study done um just last year looking at Boston Marathon runners
00:54:55
Speaker
And they found that it was actually quite surprisingly high. think it was 30, it was between 30 and 40%. I can't remember the exact figure, but it was around that of athletes that were then, that were running Boston that were classified with LEA. So, and those that, do you remember the figure? Was it around that? I can't remember the exact figure, I remember reading and just being shocked. And even just the...
00:55:18
Speaker
the when ioc came out with their most recent um statement on red s and the inclusion of lca so low carbohydrate availability and even if you're meeting your energy demands the implications of just being in lower carb can have and those knock-on effects and me As a coach, I think of this as I don't have to be the expert. Like I go to people with specific knowledge that are lot smarter. They've trained for years and years like yourself in this or like an accredited sports dietitian. But yeah at the same point, it is really important that we have that
00:55:50
Speaker
probably above base level understanding because like you say, it's such a complex marriage of all these little elements that you can just so unintentionally drop into a lack of, like you could be doing strength but not doing apply metrics.
00:56:03
Speaker
You could be eating well but not having enough carbs. And it's just so, so tricky to get right. that's and and I think the other thing, know, the thing that shocked me about this with the Boston Marathon study is generally those that are doing Boston that, you know, are usually yeah up ah upper echelon of of recreational runners, you know, that most of them have have have reached a qualification time. So they've, you know, they've they've often been doing quite well.
00:56:26
Speaker
but yet they still don't know what they should be eating and so that was that was quite surprising with that and also they showed that those that had lea were more likely to suffer an intra-race event meaning that you know something was going to go wrong in the event and those that was more common in those that were lea so you know for our for our trail runners out there like not not having enough fuel um and again could increase the risk of things not going well in a race which i think makes sense. Like I don't think anyone would would would argue with argue with that. So just got to be careful you're not having too many spring energy gels that
00:56:58
Speaker
ah The gift that keeps on giving spring. For anyone that's not and but doesn't we not aware of this, spring were intentionally, unintentionally falsifying information on on their packaging and saying they had more carbohydrates than they actually did. And when I first came into the sport, I was whole food, vegan, and I went to spring because that was the nutrition offering that best suited me.
00:57:21
Speaker
And I'm now like, I thought I was back then, I thought i was doing well targeting, say 60 grams of carbs. And I was probably having half that. which is already low 30 is diabolically low and yes yeah yeah but it it is it and and from your perspective as a sports practitioner like how how do you navigate these sort of conversations because inevitably people are going to ask you okay am i eating enough or am i doing the right thing etc like where where do you call that distinction of this is my scope and now i'm going to pass you off
00:57:53
Speaker
Yeah, so it's it's it's something that I like in terms of, you know, do I ask all my runners at a detailed analysis of their their their nutrition? No, I don't. yeah i have on my my intake form, you know, rating your diet out of 10. And and that again, that just sort of more opens a conversation. um but But again, even then, ah like what it depends on what that person thinks is is healthy that they could market as a 10 and they could just be under fueling.
00:58:20
Speaker
So, yeah there's certainly like when it comes to, if if I'm seeing a runner that's very injured, like that's had multiple that's getting multiple injuries, they're just getting injured all the time, um that certainly flags a discussion on that. It's just like, you know, what what do you know?
00:58:33
Speaker
you know what what What would a typical day look like for you for eating? and then And then really from then, like again, I'm um'm sending off to a sports dietitian if I'm thinking, look, I want to get this checked. The other time is is when I'm dealing with with um bone stress injuries and especially more the proximal. So that that's sort of around the the pelvis. So we're looking at pelvic, safe rule, femoral neck, femoral and femoral shaft to some extent, but mainly mainly around those ah the the the um the pelvis there.
00:58:59
Speaker
that we're we're getting that
Muscular Demands of Uphill and Downhill Running
00:59:00
Speaker
checked off. Or if someone's had recurrent bone stress injuries, so they've had you know one high risk one or you know two lower risk bone stress injuries, then that sort of, to me, opens up a conversation of, I think we need to get this checked. And again, like these days, how much advice do I give my runners?
00:59:16
Speaker
I probably, again, it's, it's the further you go down a path you're like further you realize you don't know so i just i now just send the sports dietitians like just see them like they they know so much more than what i could i could give you throw out some general general figures but nah it's it's um no it's something something you need to uh you need to go and go and look into get with a professional that the expert that um you know is an expert in that area do you find it hard to communicate those boundaries though with the people that come in to see you No, no, I don't. i think it's I've got better at doing that. Like I've got better at just acknowledging that I don't know i don't know everything. And i've um well, I'd say I've never thought that. um And honestly, I've never thought that. But it but it's certainly like the, you know, if you've heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect, so that's like, you know, how much experience you got and how much you think you know. And and so what the Dunning-Kruger effect is for the for those that don't, listeners that don't know is basically, you know, when you're fresh out of uni or you knew it's something, you think you know it all and you're like, yeah, um i've got I've got this. and
01:00:15
Speaker
And then over time you realize, no, actually I don't know as much as what I what i think I do. and And so, yeah, you you you are your experience, as you get experience, you realize there's lots of stuff you don't know. And so I think that with over time, I'm like, well, I don't know that. Like I've, ah i reckon early on in my practice i i thought you know i could fix everyone you know and and and over time like i've just i refer more over time than than what i have back then um whether that's to you know a podiatrist whether that's to know another coach whether that's to um you know sports dietitians these are the things there and and because i'm like yeah this is not this is not my area and they know much better than they're going to do a better job than what i can so
01:00:56
Speaker
So now I've actually got a lot easier at just doing that. And I just tell them, I said, look, this person knows more than what I do. um go and Go and see them. And people are quite thankful for but doing that. And even if that's, again, just referring someone completely out, it's like, well, this is not really my area. yeah I think you're better off seeing, you know, seeing someone that that deals a lot with that. a lot with that And, um yeah, they're they're appreciative for that. You know, that they're going to get looked after. So that's that sort of, yeah, I think I've got no issues with doing that.
01:01:21
Speaker
I think I can garner a lot of respect from the people that you're treating, but at the same time, when you are seeing somebody that you do like and that you trust, it can be hard to be told you need to go yeah elsewhere. yeah but but i think again like if they if they they they trust you know if they've got that trust in you then then then they know that you've got their best interests at heart right that is going to be the best thing best thing for them so i've never had anyone say say no like i've had i've had a few where you know i've said look ah i really want you to speak to this dietitian and then and then they're like oh you know you see them follow up have you made that appointment yet oh no i haven't yet haven't yet and and
01:01:52
Speaker
And so, um and look, there sometimes can be, especially when when things like when you're dealing with a bone stress injury, it can be this it's can be quite overburdensome. Like often when I'm delivering the news to them the first time, I'm not gonna pile them on with like, oh, you need to see this person. We need to do this. We need to go and do this. It's it's not like, okay, let's just,
01:02:12
Speaker
give them the diagnosis first and then you know then it's like a follow-up, whether that's you know a week later or or sooner, then it's like, okay, now any any questions about what's going on here? Now, this is these are the next steps of of things that we want to do. So, because it can be a bit, it's a bit of a shock, especially with those those type of injuries. they're never They're never fun to have. And and it's the news that I i i hate delivering the most as ah as ah as someone that works with runners is,
01:02:36
Speaker
is the the news of bone stress injuries because unfortunately it's you know it's it's ah it's a considerable time away from from what they yeah what they they love doing. Yeah. yeah Okay, speaking about, this is fresh on my mind, bone stress injuries, but more so the specific demands of both up and down running, as we mentioned earlier and how it stresses certain structures.
01:02:58
Speaker
what What are we thinking about from both bone, joint, tissue perspectives with those different types of running that specific to trails? Yeah, when we look at um muscular demands, and and that also then applies to bone because that we know that the biggest stress imparted on a bone is not necessarily the impact but the muscle the action of the muscle because muscles attach to bones and when muscles contract, they bend the bone and that's what actually gives the yeah gives the greatest amount of force.
01:03:28
Speaker
And so, for instance, we used to think that the greatest impact on the the shin bone, so your tibia, was when you were running downhill because when you're running downhill, you've got a lot more flight time and so there's, you know, you're in the air and you're coming down from a greater height, there's there's greater impact there. So we used to think that that was actually the the the most detrimental thing to to um for tibia, but we know it's actually the opposite. it's It's actually running up the hill because that creates a greater contraction of the calves.
01:03:53
Speaker
So when we're looking at up and when we're looking at up and downhill, uphill. So if we if we actually take a step back and we go on the flat, we look at those muscles that are responsible for propelling us forward and there's muscles that are responsible for absorbing that initial impact and and and breaking us essentially. so um So when we look at the muscles that accelerate us forward, it's primarily the calves and that's where my fascination and obsession with calf muscles comes in is that they're really important for propelling us forward. Okay, so not the glutes. Do not say it's the glutes. That's another pet pet peeve of mine. but does that Does that mean I can stop training my glutes then? Can I just train my calves?
01:04:28
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. You can. you You can actually. You know, there's there's been and in terms of looking at muscles that are primarily important. You know, the glutes and I will never say that you don't need a muscle, right? So, but in terms of our our posterior glutes, like our glute maxes, which is what everyone says is what what um propel us, their primary job is to is to keep us upright. and And so that was sort of developed as we, you know, we evolved from primates and and So you actually, if you were to have, and and they've done this, whether they do blocks into the glutes, you could still run. you'd You'd sort of have a bit of difficulty and, you know, your back extensors would be working a bit harder to try and hold you upright, but you could still run.
Personalized Trail Running Strategies
01:05:06
Speaker
Whereas if you gave someone, you know, and say, ah you know, Just look at what happens when someone ruptures an Achilles. They can't run. So you need you you need your Achilles to to move forward there. so So if we look at that as a bit of a a digress, but we'll come back come back to what we were talking about before. So the Achilles are what what propel the calf and the Achilles are what propel us forward.
01:05:24
Speaker
And then in terms of what what you know what breaks us and absorbs a lot of that initial impact, that's sort of a lot around the the knee. So when we're going uphill, when we're going to uphill, we're really working the calves a lot because they need to work really hard to propel us further up.
01:05:39
Speaker
We're spending longer on the ground when we're when we're running up a hill um and less time in the air. So a greater percentage of our gait is going to be on the ground. The other thing that that sort of puts more demand on through the on through the calf there, especially when we're going on it you know on ah on an incline, is that, you know, do we have the heel floating or do is the heel touching down? And that's a lot of work for that for the calf to and essentially be enough. We're going to be touching that heel down every step.
01:06:03
Speaker
It's a lot of that sort of that lengthening eccentric work for the calf and the Achilles. And that's where eventually like there becomes a time where it's like, well, this is very inefficient here. You might as well just be walking. And that's what I learned on some of my first early trail walks. um I'm sort of, you know, trying to run up run up on my um my on my calves and on my toes there. And then there's someone next to me walking. I'm like, okay, I think I get this here.
01:06:23
Speaker
um And I think that's what makes good trail runners. They know when to run and when to when to walk. What sort of an incline there. Yeah. Yeah. One, two quick questions here. The first one, well I think there'll be 100, well, every trail runner can probably relate to this. At some point going uphill, your calves just light on fire. It's like someone's put a match into the muscle.
01:06:43
Speaker
Do you know what's what's causing that and is there a way to prevent it? Uh, it basically just comes down to capacity so that, that, um, you know, what you're asking the calf to do. So essentially, essentially when we, when we run or when we walk, uh, we, the, the calves are essentially acting isometrically. So they're, they're contracting and and they're, they're holding still whilst the Achilles underneath it stretches and snaps back.
01:07:11
Speaker
Now, what will what will tend to happen is if the calves start to lose the ability to do that, what happens is that they start to lengthen as the Achilles lengthens and you don't get then a very powerful snapback. So it becomes very inefficient and then you're having to chew up a lot of lot of energy just to just to try and fuel these muscles to to do that job. So essentially, they're they're failing in their in their job there to to contract isometrically and allow that tendon spring to go back and forth. and your bodies are saying we need energy here, we need energy and it just then conks out. So it says we we can't function at this at this rate anymore, we have to keep producing that ah that that force. so
01:07:48
Speaker
So yeah, that's where we sort of find that burning. So what you know what I'm thinking in those runners is, well, there's two things. One, we get fitter, like that that' that actually, you know the act of of of training will develop that that calf.
01:07:59
Speaker
But secondly, we we go with um with with strength and we work on the strength and capacity of those those calf muscles. Yeah. And the second side to that is, know there are differing opinions. Some people say you should try to run every step that you can uphill.
01:08:12
Speaker
Some people say that you should switch to a hike earlier from an energy perspective. Yeah, yeah. Is there a any benefit from from from either one that that you can think of? And and also, I definitely have people say that because you're obviously more reactive, you're relying a bit more on the the tendon calf structure when you're yeah running, being more poppy. is Could that be beneficial in any way from a fatigue perspective? Yeah.
01:08:35
Speaker
Well, I mean, it does it does use you know use more energy. and And you also are, like if you look at what's happening you know when you're running, when you're trying to run versus when you're walking, you are taking sort of shorter steps. when youre If you were trying to run up versus walk up, you're taking more steps, and but you're using predominantly the calves to do that. Like you're often trying to you know trying to stay on those toes as as much as you can.
01:08:58
Speaker
Whereas when you switch to a walk, you you typically will then lengthen your stride out and you'll use other muscles. So you'll use a lot around like your hip extensors because you'll be, you know, essentially reaching forward there and then pulling back with your hamstrings, quads and um and and hips. And that's where you often feel it sort of working around through there. So you are switching up the muscle group usage when you when you take those those different strategies.
01:09:22
Speaker
Which is more important? Look, that's probably, again, it's probably your area of expertise. Like it's it's in in terms of from ah from a coaching point of view and I guess what the runner's strengths are. Like if if they are particularly strong in through their their calves or they're particularly weak, then it might might benefit them to to you know to take that early walk strategy to to conserve that.
01:09:42
Speaker
um So I think it comes down to to the individual profile. I wouldn't say that there's a strategy that works blanketly the same for everyone. I know i know yeah People would like to hear that and there'll be, I'm sure there's people out there that say everyone should be walking or everyone should be running.
01:09:56
Speaker
But no, it does really depend on that that individual's, um you know, that that individual strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. No. Yeah, I i agree. how I'll save that for a for future conversation going into
Optimal Gradients and Running Mechanics
01:10:08
Speaker
it yeah too much. But I think it's a podcast episode.
01:10:11
Speaker
and it It is like there there are studies out there that suggest like optimal hike gradients versus run gradients, but it's very much a trainable trait. And I think that like as you get fitter, stronger, um more mechanically efficient, you can definitely run steeper gradients and it be at a benefit from an energy cost perspective. um But it is definitely something you need to walk watch out for and and train. Sorry, I interrupted you were going on about the the calf pulling on the shin bone going uphill.
01:10:35
Speaker
Yeah, so that's that's sort of where we find where we find uphill um working working e there. There is also a bit more demand in through the hip flexors as well, trying to get those because you're getting a higher degree of of of hip flexion as you as you're coming up
Impact of Hill Running on Muscles and Injuries
01:10:48
Speaker
through there. So that can put a bit more demand in through the the front of the hip.
01:10:52
Speaker
a little bit into the hamstring again with that um going uphill and that high degrees of of hip flexion ah we can be getting a bit more stress in through the hamstring tendons so those with hamstring tendinopathy sometimes don't you know i don't like running uphill because it puts more demand in through that but then once we summit we start to go down that's when our mechanics change in that we we are getting more flight time relative to to time on the ground so we're spending shorter time on the ground we're flying in the air for for a greater percentage we are essentially dropping from a height. So, you know, with your gravity taking us down, there's a lot more a lot more of that, you know, our body weight plus gravity that's driving us down there.
01:11:29
Speaker
And the knees are ah what's sort responsible for essentially stopping us falling on our face. So we are always going to be, we are always landing in front of our centre of mass, except when we're like accelerating during a sprint, we're going to be landing out through here, but but distance running and and and and running down the hill, we're always going to be landing out in front of our centre of mass, but it's a matter of how much.
01:11:49
Speaker
And so that that initial impact a lot is that taken by the yeah by the knee to to break us. And that's where we tend to see sort of more knee based issues like patellofemoral pain,
01:12:00
Speaker
um patellar tendinopathy and ITB. So ITB is a really big one. If I'm seeing someone with ah ITB, I want to look at ah ITB syndrome. I want to look at how much hill running they've been doing. Usually what comes up comes down. So what they've been going up is going down there.
01:12:14
Speaker
Like I've had ITB a couple of ah times. That was actually my first running injury back in... I reckon it was 2007, I reckon that was my first first injury there. And I was training for Puffing Billy, Puffing Billy run. um And I decided that I was gonna just do a lot of hills. And so i just ran ran up and up and down these hills.
01:12:34
Speaker
And then I remember i was out in a run one day, I was halfway out, I think doing a 10K run at five ks And it just blew up and I'm like, oh, okay. And so I had to sort of hop my way home for five Ks, which wasn't much fun.
01:12:46
Speaker
um But that was doing, again, the hills just doing too much more than what what my body could handle. And I've had it a couple of times since actually was after, actually after city marathon recently, which I did feel just the the a few days afterwards, ah because there was a lot, of you know, the downhills of city marathon and,
01:13:06
Speaker
um it was it was more just sensitive. So I wouldn't say it was it was really provoked there, but I was trying to really push the downhill. So hard downhill running is is quite hard on that ah on those those those knees.
Strength Training for Runners
01:13:17
Speaker
And in one regard, it it can be an injury, but it can also be a a strengthening tool as well. So if someone's particularly prone to to knee injuries, um and then I'd actually encourage that actually some downhill running and hard downhill running can be a good way to to train that given in the right dose at and at the right time.
01:13:35
Speaker
it can actually be quite effective. The same with sort of calf and Achilles issues. if you're you know If you're giving them uphill running, then it can be a really great way to strengthen that ah strengthen that structure as well. So as they as they say, hills pay the bills.
01:13:49
Speaker
it's um It's definitely fascinating subject and something like I wish we probably had more time i think at the moment we're about three questions into the 12 that i had written down and a until but might have to do a part two hey i i think we definitely will um but i want to kind of finish up with thinking about like the key strength qualities that we do need to develop when we are thinking about those specific demands that show running incorporates into us Yeah.
01:14:17
Speaker
So I'd say number one, and probably the only one that you need to remember is, is are your calves. So yeah yeah when when we say, and when we're talking about strength quality, so I think that that's really important to to differentiate. I'm a big fan of of this in that, that we when we say someone's strong, there's actually different components that make up to that. So there's, you know, we've got maximal strength. So that's basically looking at how hard you can push into something.
01:14:41
Speaker
Then we've got things like endurance, strength, endurance, which is, How many times can you repeatedly do that over and over and over again? And then we've got things like explosive or reactive strength, and that's the ability to do it very quickly and also to absorb and then and and and release that that energy. so And as a runner, we need all three of those. you know we We need all those qualities. We need good strength, we need good endurance, and we need good reactive strength as well.
01:15:05
Speaker
So this is where the gym comes in handy because running, like, yes, we can get strong with running, but it's not the most effective way to do it. Otherwise, you know, bodybuilders would run and to get to get big legs. so So we don't said don't do that. not that running Not that running in the gym will will make us big and and make us bulky because that's another myth that's ah that that is untrue. um so But that's where the gym comes in and becomes really important to to work on those strength qualities. so um looking at so you know maximal strength by doing weighted calf raises and going heavy on that. So I think one of the biggest ah mistakes I see that runners do is just going light. like they don't A lot of runners don't realize how much weight you can put through those calves. And I'm lucky enough that I've got force plates in my clinic, which allow me to test the strength in these things. So you know I put a runner on that. and
01:15:51
Speaker
you know i say we do a standing calf raise and they're pushing up into ah into an immovable bar and it's measuring on this force plate below how much force they're able to put out. But we usually like to see you know two and a half times body weight. So that's that being able to push there. So that's their body weight plus an additional one and a half.
Plyometrics and Muscular Endurance
01:16:07
Speaker
So if I'm 70 kilos, that's being able to put 105 kilos on my back and just be able to to budget. all right So that's 105 and what we find with most runners is they're doing calf raises with five kilos you know or you know they're for for reps so they're just they're really under loading them and so they don't realize how how heavy that you you can go and need to go on on these um so that's the maximal strength point of view and then things from a from a um
01:16:34
Speaker
uh an explosive stance and reactive strength that's why i'm a big fan of plyometrics of of working with uh working with those and and the great thing like you know tying it back to what we're saying about ankle sprains is that they're great too or great exercises for for working um you know the the the strength around that ankle and and even just the the control as well once you start to get into some some jumps and landing and you know throwing some different directions in there which are really important for trail runners. So you know once you're able to hop on the spot, can you then hop from side to side and forward and back and diagonal distances and then you can be doing things like some some drop jumps where yeah you know you might do some box jumps initially. So up onto a box and then landing and then you go on to being able to then drop off that that and then jump up in the air again or hop up in the air again or jump forward or jump in different directions there. So that can be a really useful exercise for those um those those ankle sprains when when they're ready for it.
01:17:26
Speaker
um But just also from a ah ah running strength point of view as well too. So so I'm a big fan of plyometrics. Like all my all my runners get get some form of plyos because there's some good research to show their benefit in in terms of um you know just improving time trial performance just with that with just doing some simple hopping exercises can be can be really beneficial.
01:17:47
Speaker
Yeah. Brilliant. The muscular endurance conversation is obviously right on everyone's mind after Tom Evans and Ruth Croft and their coach Scott Johnson being very big on this. But essentially, when you look at their strength training protocols and what they're saying about the specific endurance, it is just endurance, essentially, being able to repeat the similar actions.
01:18:09
Speaker
that's That's right. I think like it's it's interesting because, i you know, I was listening to and you know, i'm being sort of new to that, I hadn't heard his his particular approach and listened to him on a couple of different podcasts to hear about that. And it's it's interesting from a like whether that's actually working and And that's where I'm been interested to sort of go into this. And I've got this to sort of look back on another time. Like what what is it what is that actually developing? Like is it is it developing, um yeah what are you saying with the muscular endurance or is it just a really good training tool for other other reasons we don't yet know? I mean, usually usually in terms of if we're trying to improve strength endurance, like ah often working, often just working um maximal strength is is ah is is a way to to improve that. So just getting someone stronger.
01:18:55
Speaker
Like they are... but ah There are different strength qualities, but there is there is a lot of overlap. And if I'm getting someone that's testing poor across the board, I'm starting with maximal strength. Start with that, build that up, and that will also then go. So I don't know, like is is the is the weighted uphill running just actually really good at at developing strength? Like could you get similar gains from getting them in the gym and going quite heavy? I don't think I've heard him talk about what they're doing from a gym perspective. like he yeah yeah he has so he He has a bunch of resources on his site and and we actually we'll be catching up in a week to to chat about this anyway.
01:19:30
Speaker
Oh, cool. Awesome. um Yeah. Sorry, me and you, not him. and Oh, okay. All right. But it did that that would be great. Although I have um i have have spoken to one of one of his athletes and hearing about it. And it's it is interesting because it causes a lot of localized fatigue where you're your like metabolic system is not the thing that's getting depleted. It is purely like it's mechanical. your Your muscles are fatiguing to a point that is...
01:20:00
Speaker
I think it's hard to replicate in the gym because when are you going to go and do a thousand meters of elevation change with a ah weight on your back and just hiking? Like it's, and I think that- Do you need to? Can can you- Well,
Innovative Training Approaches and Caution
01:20:12
Speaker
exactly, yeah. and i mean that like Yeah. that's That's the interesting question. And that's what i'm I'm personally worried about is that there's going to be way too many people that listen to that and take it literally and apply it directly to them and not think about all the the structure and the training history and the specificity that comes before that at which point do they actually then start layering in this and
01:20:33
Speaker
Well, that's right. And I had someone ask me about it recently and I'm like, well, look, like just the logistics of trying to do sessions like that, like, you know, it, and, and especially for someone that's relatively untrained and, you know, is barely doing any work in the gym anyway. It's like, well, could you just get the same sort of, you know, just as good, if not better gains from just lifting some weights and doing it that way. It's a lot of easier, lot easier to do, you know, is, is it safer? Maybe as well but um by doing that a bit more controlled environment. So,
01:21:02
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. Again, like I um like consider myself quite open to new ideas and and learning about it. and I sort of, you know, hear that and I think, okay, well let's question that and and where could that fit in? Is that better than what I'm currently doing? And so, yeah, look forward to talking about that more in ah in in future as well with you.
01:21:19
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that going back to what you were saying before, and it's something that I've definitely find basically every single day, is that the more you know, the less you know, in that sense of you've you've got to constantly be curious and you think you think that you know the standard protocol that works from the majority of people and then all of a sudden someone throws complete curveball and you go, huh, hadn't thought about it that way.
01:21:41
Speaker
Could it work? Could it work? Like, and and yeah, is it's fun. It's fascinating. But it's also you realize like, yeah, I do not know very much at all. No, and that's exactly that Dunning-Kruger effect I was talking about before. So, and and and I've got to grow. I'm going to be comfortable with that too. Like, again, I've got, I love learning and I love, you know, this There's so much out there that I that i don't know and I'll never know, and certainly never know anything.
01:22:03
Speaker
um I'm trying to trying to avoid, it's like like what happens sometimes with specialists is that they become so, you know, knowing so much about like such a small area. Like I never want to i never
Continuous Learning and Conclusion
01:22:14
Speaker
want to be that. I never want to be that, micro-focused.
01:22:17
Speaker
um But, yeah, it's it's ah finding that balance. on it Yeah. and I think it's, you've got to know the basics of what you're doing very well to then be able to expand out to ironically become more narrowly focused. Because as we said before, there's the psychology side of of performance and there's all these like, all these little areas that you can definitely expand your own experience in to be able to come back up. but yeah, I'm rambling now.
01:22:40
Speaker
No, no, that's great. Yeah. Thank you so much for that. it' I must say it's kind of not really where I thought this would go, but it was great fun. I would sit i was sitting like standing here actually thinking that it's a really good job you have your own podcast because you speak incredibly well and are able to the relatively complex complex ideas and communicate them in a way that's understandable um which is a skill that you have to have an incredible base of knowledge to be able to do so so thank you for coming on and spending the time I think we definitely will have a part two some point in the future ah get more into it but yeah appreciate time absolutely honored to mate it was a great great great discussion and and good to again get my brain thinking of of different ways as well too so uh keep up your good work mate always great to chat to you
01:23:26
Speaker
I appreciate it. Thanks much everyone for listening. We'll catch you next time. hope you guys all enjoyed that one as much as I did. Thank you to Luke again for coming on and sharing his expertise. I hope was packed with insights and perspectives that I can personally take as a coach, as a runner, and hopefully you can all do the same.
01:23:45
Speaker
If you would like to learn more about Luke, have a chat to him. You can find him in Melbourne in person at Health and High Performance. He also does telehealth. That's how I've been seeing him from Albury. He's also on Instagram at Sports Cairo Luke. And I really would encourage you to follow there because as we all know, there's a lot of of information and opinions on social media. And Luke is one of the ones that you should be paying attention to.
01:24:07
Speaker
We'll definitely be doing a part two to keep this conversation going. So if you do have any questions, please shoot us a message either via email or on our Instagram. And if you enjoyed this style of conversation where we're moving away from the athlete ah for this one,
01:24:20
Speaker
and going down the practitioner side of things, going into the the other areas of our sport, then also please let us know. And if you did enjoy it, as always, if you can share it around, if you can just let one friend know that doesn't already listen to the podcast, that would help us grow massively and hopefully get this information to more and more people, which at the end of the day, we just want more people on trails, enjoying it, feeling strong, healthy, and having a lot of fun doing so. That's all for us now. So we will see you next time on Peep Pursuits.