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The Future of Trail Running in Australia: Gary Mullins on the AUTRA Playbook
332 Plays4 days ago
The Australian trail running scene is evolving fast — but its governance, funding, and pathways are still catching up.
In this interview, AUTRA President Gary Mullins unpacks the AUTRA Playbook and explains how AUTRA aims to move from advocacy to authority, working alongside Australian Athletics, professionalising the sport as a whole, standardise events and coaching, empower race directors, and deliver real value to runners at every level.
This episode dives into the real questions: Who holds the power right now? How will governance evolve? And what does it all mean for everyday runners?
From membership models to world championship selection, James and Gary explore what needs to happen next to make trail running stronger, fairer, and more connected.
***Don’t forget, use code PEAK at Bix’s website for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
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Transcript
Introduction to Peak Pursuits Podcast
00:00:16
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Peak Pursuits podcast. My name is James Seabair and this week on the podcast we're joined by Gary Mullins.
The New Playbook for Trail Running in Australia
00:00:24
Speaker
Gary is the president of Ultra, the Australian Ultra and Trail Running Association and this podcast is one that's going to dive deep into the playbook that they will have released today the 31st of October at the time of recording.
00:00:38
Speaker
This playbook outlines the next phase for trail and mountain running in Australia as well as ultra and it's full of really big ideas bold statements but we wanted to really try and provide some clarity and dig deeper into what these words actually mean. This goes into predominantly who's in charge, what governance does ultra have, and how does Australian athletics view the sport of mountain trail and ultra running and the direction that we're going to be taking in the future.
00:01:03
Speaker
And then what does any of this actually mean for the everyday runner or for the elite that just wants to participate, represent and enjoy the sport that we all love? So this conversation, we do go into the best that we can at this point in time around the governance in Australia of trail, mountain and ultra running. This is
Ultra's Plans and Stakeholder Value
00:01:19
Speaker
an evolving subject as you're going to work out with this podcast that Gary just doesn't have the answers to yet because they don't exist. However, this is a point to start with. Gary is going to explain how ultra plans to work alongside and hopefully with or for Australian athletics, creating more value for the race directors, for the runners, for the volunteers, pioneer trail stewardship and build clear pathway from grassroots to the world championships.
00:01:42
Speaker
This conversation really is about the future of the sport, how the decisions now are going to impact us in three, five, 10 years time. And it is relevant regardless of if you are just making cutoffs or trying to represent at the Asia Pacific or the world champs in the future. Hope you enjoy this topic. I'm sure you're going to have a whole bunch of questions, areas that you would have wished that we dive into deeper.
00:02:04
Speaker
Gary is incredibly happy to come back on and have a further conversation about this. So as always, send us a message and we will happily bring your comments and questions to Gary and Altra in the future.
00:02:16
Speaker
With that,
Playbook Release and Gary's Experience
00:02:17
Speaker
let's get to the podcast with Gary Mullins. Gary, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for coming on to do this. How are you going today? Yeah, good, James. Thanks for thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's one that we've been trying to tee up for a while and kind of delayed to the end of this month to to coincide with the playbook, which will have been released by the time this episode is is coming out. so it gives us that framework to really dig into things. But when I first reached out, it was very much about I wanted to personally understand more of what what ultra is where where it is in the sport how its impact on trail running and mountain running specifically and i know that the u is for ultra um on the roadside but i just see like there's so much conversation about where this sport is going to be going how fast it's growing and kind of go okay for for everybody else listening what what does this all mean really so appreciate your time to do this today absolutely well it's good
00:03:11
Speaker
So we'll start off with just introducing yourself, if you don't mind, because um for somebody to come into this position, you can't just spring out of nowhere. So I'm assuming you have a very detailed, or I history with the sport. So could give us a quick introduction to to who you are and how you ended up in this position with Ultra.
00:03:29
Speaker
Sure. I don't like talking about myself, James. I like to be in the background. um Look, I've been involved in the sport for 20 years. I've been coaching. Next year will be my 21st year and full-time coaching started in 2014. So I've been involved in around that area for a long time.
00:03:49
Speaker
um Found out I had a little... bit of ability over so I was been lucky enough to represent Australia three times at 100k road championships and that got me involved in Autra so that was back in 2014-2015 I first heard about back then it was Zora um And I guess off the back of that, I, you know, just kept in touch with the then president, Robert Boyce and Rob Duncan Slott after that. And I've been involved back
Leadership and Governance Challenges
00:04:27
Speaker
in 2018, 2019. There was a bunch of us asked to develop a athlete development pathway for 150 Unfortunately, that went nowhere.
00:04:37
Speaker
unfortunately that went nowhere Been involved three times as team manager for a hundred k teams and then also state reps ah over the last couple of years.
00:04:49
Speaker
um So been around a while. um Look, I love this sport. um Those that know me, like being, I can't express enough, being involved, being able to coach full time in something you love is is amazing. And I suppose,
00:05:09
Speaker
couple of years ago, i could i was looking at Aura back then, and it hadn't changed for nine years, 10 years. And there was a lot of chatter out around races.
00:05:25
Speaker
What's the value of Aura? Where is it heading? um In, I think it was 2024, the previous committee did some really good work and like, you know, brought in trail running um and hence the name of Ultra.
00:05:41
Speaker
And I looked at it and I thought, It needs to change. Something needs to be done. There's a lot of people screaming from the sidelines that there's a lot of work that needs to be done.
00:05:53
Speaker
um Governance, policies, races, national champs, development pathways, more community. um And personally, if you want to make change, you've got to get involved. um And I put my hand up this year.
00:06:11
Speaker
um I think I was... To be honest, I was disappointed. I was the only one to put my hand up for the president role. um I think if you've got it ah good sport and something that's thriving and blooming and people want to be a part of, people will put their hands up to take it on and to continue the growth.
00:06:34
Speaker
um I was the only one, like Jeff Russell, him and I did a lot of chatting leading up to it. And it was like, who's going, him or i But to be the only two people interested in putting our hand up, that was disappointing. But that disappointment shows that there's a lot of work to be done.
00:06:53
Speaker
And do you know what? In the first six months, far out, man, we've been doing a lot of work. Yeah, you guys have definitely been busy. And I think that really, it says something for the state of the sport when a lot of people want change, but no one's willing to be that person to do it about the the enormity of the task ahead. and And I want that to kind of frame this whole conversation is that we're going to go into a lot of kind of areas of where Ortra is right now and where it's hopefully going to go. But it's under no disillusion that you're you're taking something that needs a lot of work and a lot of development to
00:07:27
Speaker
keep up with the sport, but also to, I guess, formalize professionalize the top end and provide a much bigger community experience for everybody else. Yeah. You use the right word, professionalize.
00:07:40
Speaker
um The sport needs to become more professional, but for that to happen, the governing body, AUTRA, we need to become more professional as well in in what we do. And we, the committee, look, we've we've got an awesome committee, man, like myself and Jeff and ah Lisa and Dan and Ben um and David on policies. Like,
00:08:05
Speaker
We've got an awesome team that's like we're putting in a lot of hours in that first six months to get where we are. So the right people are on board um and it's exciting.
00:08:17
Speaker
Yeah. So let let's talk about when you came in as president, what what position and what,
Community and Connection in Ultra
00:08:24
Speaker
I guess, control, what governance did ORTRA have at that point?
00:08:28
Speaker
um They looked after 24 hours on track or road, 100K, 50K. And they'd had their first 12 months looking after trial running um as well.
00:08:42
Speaker
And that's that's where we are today. Okay. And the the six months that you were talking about, what, aside from the playbook that we're going to go through, or maybe that is the main thing, what has been the big focus during that period for you?
00:08:55
Speaker
Learning. Learning. ah One of our biggest challenges was five out of the the six committee members were all new. um And it's like any, you're a coach, any relationship you start with, you've got to learn off each other, you've got to grow, you've got to find everyone's strengths and weaknesses.
00:09:16
Speaker
um But then you've also got to deal with everything that's happening um at that time. So we had, obviously the previous committee had been working with AA on the trial world championships.
00:09:29
Speaker
We had the 24 hour world championships, had 100K Asian championships. So three three big championships within the the first five months of us being on board. So we had to learn how to deal with that, the full selection process.
00:09:44
Speaker
There was a lot of challenges and we'll, there's, A lot of, when I say challenge, challenges that a lot of good have come out of. um And we had to work through policies with, you know, David and Dan have been working really hard on changing policies. So we had to find our feet and we had to have a lot of conversations.
00:10:05
Speaker
um ah You know, when you come in, take over a previous committee, there's always like previous issues happening as well. So you've got to deal with that. um And in the background, whilst everything was going on, the playbook was being developed and we wanted to get it out in October. And it's Halloween. It's the 31st of October.
00:10:30
Speaker
Actually thinking about that, I don't know if that's a good thing, but it's coming out today. So we've worked really hard. We've been really busy. And here we are today about to launch the playbook.
00:10:40
Speaker
Yeah. Ultra's role outside of just the the elite aspect of the sport, the people that are going to world champs, how is Ultra positioned to look after the sport more generally for, I guess, trail, mountain and and Ultra?
00:10:58
Speaker
How we're positioned? There's still discussions. There's there's a lot around that. lot around that When we talk trial, when we talk world mountain, we've got to think of everyone involved in that. So it's world athletics, it's Australian athletics, it's IAU and it's Autron. Then it's obviously the athletes involved in it and then races as well.
00:11:23
Speaker
um What national champs do we have? What do we do do around that? So there's a lot of bodies involved. working together and a lot of conversations um happening. And we're only at the beginning of those conversations.
00:11:38
Speaker
ah We've got, as we get into this this podcast, we've got a lot of i ideas and you know directions that we need to go in building the sport.
00:11:52
Speaker
World Mountain Running or Australian Mountain Running Association. um We want to look at, ORTRA wants to look at taking that on. yeah But they're conversations we've got to have with Australian athletics.
00:12:05
Speaker
um We feel we are now in the right position to look after that and work with AA on making that better. So everything that we're doing, so it's not just about that end. Everything that we're doing, whether it's through the athletes, um the community, the race directors, um it's all about conversations. Yeah.
00:12:27
Speaker
um It's all about listening to the community and what they want. In your conversations with AA, what is their view on Trail and Ultra within their framework? Are they excited about the concept of Trail being within the track like track and field scenario or are we still a bit of a side thought?
00:12:50
Speaker
i think that's – I can't speak on behalf of Australian athletics. Yeah. And we've had two conversations with them within the first six months.
00:13:02
Speaker
Those conversations have been really good and really positive. um We wanted to get through to the Spain see what happened there.
00:13:14
Speaker
We've got another conversation happening in about two or three weeks with um Adam Bishop. And They are on board with trial running. They can see where trial running's headed.
00:13:28
Speaker
um But, oh yeah, look, I think they've got a you know, I can't speak on behalf of where AA is. I can only speak on behalf of what Autra is doing for the sport. But I can speak positively positively of them because they realise where it's going.
00:13:48
Speaker
It's just a lot of work to be done around it. ah And so on behalf of Orchard, are you confident about the trajectory of trail running being sort of legitimized
Playbook's Ambitions and Athlete Support
00:14:01
Speaker
within AA's mind going forward? Yes. Okay.
00:14:05
Speaker
That's good. That's great to hear. I think there's the, we saw this with, with Wells and I know that there's been a lot of feedback about how that whole process worked and that there are definitely things that people wanted to see can be improved on. But I think a lot of it is a misconception that Orchard don't have the control about when things come out and how things are done. And and it's very much been, you might be able to go, and correct me if I'm wrong, you can go to AA and suggest things, but AA is the governing body. They are the voice that controls how this all works. Is that correct?
00:14:36
Speaker
and That is correct, yes. Yeah. So going through the the playbook, the the first thing that stood out to me, which is very nice to read, is the community focus of everything. And it's you definitely put that that front and center. I've got the playbook just up up here and um you have like the the timeline and then the first page is community and and connection, which I love because of...
00:15:00
Speaker
The big thing for me in in trail running specifically is the community. And that is such such a powerful draw card, I think, for people coming in from the roads and to keep people in. But the the thing that I kept coming back to is...
00:15:14
Speaker
Right now, i'm I'm confused about what Autra can actually do and how it's going to go forward in terms of like world selections and choosing national championships and and creating creating out anything and from a membership perspective. if you If AA aren't formally granting you control, governance of trail.
00:15:34
Speaker
The MOU, the memorandum of understanding that looked like it was the goal is to be locked in by 2829. Yeah. eight twenty nine yeah So with that being three to four years down the line, like what, what can you do without that being signed and in place in this interim period?
00:15:54
Speaker
Again, I'll come back this come back to this a lot. Conversations. So let's have a look at the playbook, right? So when we put this together, there there was there was a lot of things that that stood out for us, right? better Better community and connection. Let's start with that.
00:16:15
Speaker
Because part of the reason I stepped into this role, roll even within my club, People, yeah we're not we're not members of Altra anymore because it just goes to the elite.
00:16:30
Speaker
Yeah, okay, you've got, you know, discounts up there and everything like that, but we can get those through our running club. So it's like, well, what is the value of Altra?
00:16:41
Speaker
Okay, so the committee, wait we need to have better connections with the community. We need to recognize more people within the community first.
00:16:52
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Because within that community and like, you know, some point we might talk about the running boom that's happening, but within that community is our next future stars representing Australia on an international level, right? So we've got to connect with that community level.
00:17:11
Speaker
Got to connect with volunteers. We've got to tell better stories. How do we tell better stories? We tell better stories through our media and social media and our marketing.
00:17:24
Speaker
So we've got to go in there and we've got to build a relationship with the running community a better and get them to understand, well, what is your $49? What is my $49?
00:17:36
Speaker
Where does that go? What does that do? And the first part of next year is bringing it in Volunteer Month, recognizing volunteers, okay? um at this moment, probably around May, because that is the end of May's National Volunteer Week worldwide. So it makes sense to bring it in there. So it's recognising the volunteers and the work that they do for race directors.
00:18:02
Speaker
um It's also looking at, you know, We've been talking with single track, GPT and Buffalo guys. They've been doing some amazing work in and around trail regeneration.
00:18:17
Speaker
And we've got all of these people running trails every weekend. There's 371 races listed listed on running calendar australia we're using the trials, we've got to put put back into the trials as a national body. So they're our first two steps next year.
00:18:38
Speaker
Now, whilst all of that's happening, we're planning our steps for 27, 28 and 29. And that's when the rest of the playbook comes into action.
00:18:48
Speaker
and Okay. From the membership side of things, if you're, especially if you're going to think about okay, to to represent um on the Welsh days, you had to join your local athletics club to be able to go through AA and do that.
00:18:59
Speaker
And then you're also asking people to become Orchard members. what is that Is the plan for that all to come under AA where Trail is going to get ah share of it or ah people are people going to have to have two memberships?
00:19:13
Speaker
No, at the moment, it's the one membership, it's ORTRA. Yeah. ah Jeff and I are looking at either state associations or state bodies. You'll see that in the ORTRA playbook.
00:19:26
Speaker
Yeah. um we're We're initial conversations with that. We've had a lot of feedback um from the community in that respect as well. There needs to be better representation within each state.
00:19:41
Speaker
um If you have a look at the the great work that TRAC do up in Queensland, um John and the trail runners down in Tassie and then the South Australian Trail Running Association as well, they they do really good work within the state level.
00:19:59
Speaker
OTRA needs to look at that. ah We need to, well, we've started the conversations, but we need to
Challenges in Recognition and Transparency
00:20:06
Speaker
start building how each state looks. Is it a state association where it represents something like Australian athletics, where we've got Autra Queensland, Autra New South Wales and so on?
00:20:19
Speaker
Or do we just set up state bodies where we've got five or six people representing each state and out on the ground and helping Lisa with race directors, engaging with ah volunteers and runners, engaging with races, engaging with the athletes that want to represent and showing them the pathways on how to get there.
00:20:45
Speaker
but who Who then is going to be recognizing these state bodies then? so so Portra. But what does that mean for the runners?
00:20:57
Speaker
Like, because Ultra doesn't, it's obviously with, within AA, you can become a national champion or you can get into the world's teams, you can win state. Does, do you think runners will care about a national championship that doesn't have like any next step?
00:21:14
Speaker
Because if you win your state body or you win the national championship, there's no automatic selection onto the world's team because a a and Ultra are completely separate at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. um Part of our conversations, I can see you want to get into the selection process of what we're looking at.
00:21:30
Speaker
um And we've been listening, honestly, in that part um on the national champs, selection, athlete funding, athlete development pathways.
00:21:44
Speaker
um Where's our next crop of talented athletes coming from the if 2032 happens? ah James, we've been listening, right? And we've got a lot of things on our our whiteboard.
00:21:59
Speaker
And those things are, and a lot of that stuff's come from like your podcast as well. um So we're looking at things like, I think Vlad on your last podcast mentioned what's the goal of the national champs?
00:22:15
Speaker
Simple. The goal of the national champs is to have the best male and female and the best juniors and the best age group runners rocking up and racing to each other. How do we do that? How do we make it more attractive? Prize money?
00:22:29
Speaker
Absolutely. um Where does that come from? That's something we've got to work out. Free entries, absolutely. That's part of looking after the the top end of the athletes better.
00:22:42
Speaker
Again, that is something that we've got to look at. Automatic selection, absolutely. Like Jeff and I believe that if you finish first...
00:22:53
Speaker
maybe second at a national champs, male, female, it's an automatic selection. And we've got a conversation that's happening within two weeks and hopefully by the end of November, we'll have some good news around that.
00:23:08
Speaker
um It's like if you race at the Asian Championships, which are November next year, is the first um male and female in the short and long is that automatic selection for the Worlds.
00:23:22
Speaker
Yeah. um yeah If you get selected, where's the funding coming from? you know Is Ultra funding? Is AA funding? Their conversations, they've been the bulk of our conversations. And look, honestly, i can look you straight down the camera here.
00:23:39
Speaker
We want that to happen. Yeah. If you're lucky enough to be in that top half percent of the best runners in a country, you need to be looked after. If you're the best footballer, the best tennis player, hockey player, you are looked after.
00:23:54
Speaker
um i i can I come from my coaching philosophy is create opportunities and experiences. You know, some of the best things I've done is taking athletes overseas to races where they've been funded.
00:24:08
Speaker
And it's a big gap within our governing body. And we need to explore it We need to come up with answers. And we need to support athletes, um not only now, but developing from the grassroots as well.
00:24:25
Speaker
Gary, I feel like I should just let you interview yourself and go into your own your own questions. because it it is but it is i love it, man. I love it. yeah love it yeah in In the sense of all the things that you've just pointed out there, and I kind of need this coming on that I'm probably going to have lot questions that you just physically don't have the answer to yet because of where we are in in the in this process, yeah um which is – It's always going to be the case. I'm sure if we do this again in six months, it will be an incredibly different conversation by sounds of potentially even end of the year could be very different conversation. But when we look back to the selection for worlds this year, there were a few things that that came up. There was the fact that there was obviously no funding, fair enough, but even like buying their own kits, which were astronomically expensive for the, especially for the quality that they were getting.
00:25:11
Speaker
The short trail national championships were outside of the qualification window. And there's another one I was going to bring up, but let's just focus on on on those two.
00:25:22
Speaker
When those decisions are being made, have you had any input or any authority in those decision making processes up to now? Yeah, look, The committee was selected after the the team had been selected. It was the previous committee that was involved um with the selection pro process and the conversations.
00:25:43
Speaker
um So, yeah, we you know we came in, we we had the focus of what we had to do ahead. The team had already been selected. So it wasn't for us to come in and start questioning or or what was happening because everything had already been set and everything was moving and and we couldn't change that.
00:26:02
Speaker
Okay. From a ah future but orientation, when and you we start looking at, okay, hopefully at least of the winner of the national championships and in each respective distance will get that automatic spot, whether it is Asia Pacific team or is it a Wales team.
00:26:15
Speaker
Are there any nations you're looking at at the moment where you go, we like how they're doing it and we want to try and model that the best? yeah I think I've always been a fan of US track and field, where whether it's for the Olympics, they do it for trials as well. You rock up at the national champs or their selection race, and it's like, you know, it's brutal. It's the top two, top three go through whatever it is.
00:26:42
Speaker
I think if you look at them, Great Britain, um you know, they've got a good model. How we see our model is we know now when the Asian champs are. We know now when the, like Asian champs trial, we also know when the Asian 24-hour champs are on. um They're in May next year. Asian trial is October, no, November next year.
00:27:07
Speaker
We know when world championships are. So we've already changed. One of the things that came out of some of the selections that we've been involved in in the first six months was the time period.
00:27:20
Speaker
And it's like 16 weeks out or 12 weeks out, you know, hey, selection, put your name in. Great. Now go and find the cheapest flight you can within eight weeks, 10 weeks. It's even pressure on us. Like we've got to get the uniforms and like, you know,
00:27:37
Speaker
put pressure on who we're getting them from. And like, we need them now. It's wrong. Process was wrong, right? Simple, it was wrong. We needed to fix it. So what are we doing? 20 to 24 weeks out now, um teams will be selected, right?
00:27:53
Speaker
For some of them, maybe longer, um might be up to six months. If we know from the governing body, six months, eight months or 12 months out, We start the journey there, right? So for 24 hours, it's like, how do I apply? How do I, sorry, how do I qualify? How do I apply? When does the application process open?
00:28:16
Speaker
Same with the Asian Championships, right? What is the pathway there? How do I put my name in to be selected?
Strategic Direction and Professionalization
00:28:23
Speaker
What races do I need to be looking at? You know, where do I need to be sitting on the intro ranking for it?
00:28:30
Speaker
We need... to inform and educate the runners of how to apply and how to set themselves up and plan their year out of where Asia championships are a gold.
00:28:44
Speaker
So I know 12 months are this is what I need to do. It's simple, easy. And is that is that framework already in place? like oh Forgive me if um' I've missed this. Is that in place for Asia Pacific for next year yet?
00:28:57
Speaker
Yeah, itll look, we're halfway through it. But now that we've got the playbook out, that's a big focus. And yeah, Jeff and I will be the main guys working on that. And that'll be along with David with policies. So that'll be put into play pretty soon.
00:29:14
Speaker
Just back stepping a little bit talking about the MOU with AA and just like what what governance you're going to have in that interim period until you get that beautifully signed document that says ortra is this kind of governing body of of trail, ultra and mountain in in the sport and ah that that like perfect scenario.
00:29:32
Speaker
Yeah. Like what what are you hoping to say have achieved that you can impact on by Asia Pacific in 2026 and then also Worlds in 2027? Runners knowing how to qualify.
00:29:48
Speaker
Runners rocking up at our national championships. Runners funded, right? um You'll see in the playbook that in 2027, we want to start the athlete fund, futures fund, we're calling it.
00:30:03
Speaker
um And there's a whole lot of ideas on that that will happen. So, you know, athletes fully funded for their trip, flights, everything, not a cent coming out of their pocket because I feel we lose a lot of runners.
00:30:19
Speaker
Definitely. Because of the affordability of it. um Full kit, you know, even down to little things, like the kit should have, World Championship South Africa 2027 on um their singlet or their t-shirt, right? Something that they can look at and be proud of, not something that, oh, if you're represented once, just bring that singlet back out again, you'll be wearing that again. Like, come on.
00:30:47
Speaker
Like things that make you proud to represent at the the national level. So yeah, direction, They know how to qualify. They rock up at the national championships.
00:30:59
Speaker
Applications, everything, the whole process is just simple for them. um So everything flows with athletes. All they have to focus on is their training and getting fit and representing in their best condition race day.
00:31:14
Speaker
Yeah, i think ah a a few comments about the kit having a capital A as well would have been a nice touch. Yeah. But it is. Sorry, what was that? Capital A. Yeah, apparently that there was a lowercase A for Australia or Australian on the kit. And this isn't, obviously, because I know know it's likely your guys that that that were looking after this, but there was stories of other countries not wanting to swap jackets because our kit was so...
00:31:41
Speaker
second tier, shall we say, in comparison, which is such a shame because that is that that is like a significant part of the experience of coming away with a shirt from Mexico or Portugal or wherever it it is.
00:31:52
Speaker
um And you do, yeah, that there were tints of embarrassment about not being able to rock up, especially the fact that yeah they couldn't wear the national kit. Like why why weren't they able to have the Australian Athletics Puma gear?
00:32:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. yeah and And they have questions that like, you know, Fortra that we've got to, you know, have as well when we sit down, you know, and we don't look at as a challenge. We look at it as it's exciting.
00:32:22
Speaker
um We know what we've got to do As I said, we've been listening and we we hear, we're hearing everything. um When I came into the role, James, I said, I'm not doing this from my personal opinion.
00:32:34
Speaker
I'm doing it because the the voice of the community out there is speaking. um And it's, you know, we're just custodians, but it's I feel it's the one personal thing I do bring is it's my responsibility to listen and try understand implement and bring something to the sport that, you know, in three years or five years time when the next, you know, committee steps in, right, that there's something proud and people are proud to be part of this organization.
00:33:07
Speaker
Yeah, and hopefully a few more people putting their hands up to be part of it and to be be be president. I've got a spiel about that, so we'll get to that, yeah. um Since you mentioned it a few times, I think
Community Engagement and Long-Term Vision
00:33:21
Speaker
the – I'm pretty sure – I'm trying to find that page, but you you do mention the athlete fund and trying to be fully funded – fully funded Because the cost to go across to Europe at the moment, let's just say 10 grand once a time you're paying for everything.
00:33:37
Speaker
And you're talking about developing the future generations and that pathway is if you're 18 to 25, even if you're older than 25, that's a lot of money to come up with. Absolutely. It's a couple of credit cards.
00:33:48
Speaker
Yeah. And wait, but... given that I can't, and correct me if I'm wrong, especially if we don't become an Olympic sport, I can't see us getting any access to Australian athletics funding for their elite pathways.
00:34:00
Speaker
So where where is this fund going to come from? so What we've talked about at at our committee meetings is it came to light, I think it was the second committee meeting. And it's like, you know, because we're always scrambling.
00:34:15
Speaker
ah Or we need to do better with our, you know, with our membership you know, you know, for race directors and providing a lot of things. And to do all of this, you need money, right? now None of this can be done without, you know, a sustainable income. And I admit we've got a lot of, can I swear, bloody big, like, you know, things happening within this ultra playbook. Yep, we know, right?
00:34:44
Speaker
But it's not hard. So Athletes Fund came about a second committee meeting. And kind of figure it's like a ah fund of 50, 60 grand a year. And through the next two or three committee meetings, we'd spend 10 minutes on it. It's like, right, ideas.
00:35:02
Speaker
And there's been a mean a few ideas flown around in terms of the sum of that membership money. um Go to water, a percentage.
00:35:13
Speaker
um Is there something that we can do with race directors? Um, The biggest part of it, and this is where we need people to look at our playbook and have conversations with us.
00:35:29
Speaker
Biggest part of it is sponsorship. people investing into the future of ultra and trial running in Australia. Like we've just had the 24-hour worlds where Holly Rantam broke the world record, ran 273 kilometres, finished second.
00:35:47
Speaker
um The Aussie girls finished second, okay, with you know silver medal. We've got Phil Gore, backyard ultra, world champion. Look what he's bringing to the sport. Look at backyard ultras.
00:36:00
Speaker
Right, where the sport is booming and ultra now we realize that we realize how big running is in Australia. I think had a look at that 15.8% of the population runs every day.
00:36:16
Speaker
of the population runs every day 15.8% of our population. Races are selling out. That's 371 races. Most of them are selling out.
00:36:27
Speaker
Keeling up in Coffs Harbour, Backyard Ultra, 650 runners. It'll probably be the world's biggest Backyard Ultra next year. Oh, yeah. We recognise that. Ultra, the committee, we recognise that, right? Hence why we're making these changes.
00:36:43
Speaker
And we want people to back us. We want people to look at this playbook and go, hi These guys are looking after the community. We're reinvesting back into the community, into the trails, into the sport.
00:36:56
Speaker
We've got ideas around the next generation on what, you know, races can do to like, you know, help that next generation. We're serious about this. And when you're serious about a sport and you have a governing body that knows what it's about, right? And Australian athletics, they know what it's about. We we know that, right?
00:37:18
Speaker
we need people to start backing us. You know, there's a lot of people that will talk from the sidelines, right? But the sport's going in directions. And if you want to be a part of it, come and have a conversation with us.
00:37:31
Speaker
Because yeah we want you to be a part of it. And because with that, people will bring their own ideas. Yeah. Playing devil's advocate here a little bit. Love it. You say that AA are recognizing Trail and Ultra, but I just double-checked.
00:37:49
Speaker
There's no post about Holly's run. There's no post about the team. There's no post about World's When you think about the what what the audience is seeing, they're very much looking at social media and they're very much taking that away.
00:38:04
Speaker
Who do they care about? And you go through the the socials and there's the sprinters, there's middle distance, there's track athletes. From the external perspective, it looks like AA couldn't care less about Trail and Ultra.
00:38:16
Speaker
So what makes you so hopeful that that's going to be different? We've had two conversations. So Trail... for AA, and maybe I could be wrong on this, they've only just taken it on taking it on with their high performance.
00:38:32
Speaker
but And conversation we had, it's like they did want it on there, right? But I honestly believe, and I can't speak on behalf of AA or what their plans are with any anything of it, but I believe they are listening. Why they didn't post about the World Championships um over in Spain, I can't answer for that.
00:38:55
Speaker
um I can for the 24-hour because 24-hour falls under Ultra. It doesn't fall fall under AA. So 100K, 50K World Championships, trial and well the Mountain and Trail World Championships, they fall under Athletics as Australia.
00:39:12
Speaker
i Why they didn't post, I don't know. They're conversations that we've got to have. um with them. um I'm um'm always, i'm I'm not optimistic, I believe. im believe in what ah we do and I believe we can have an influence with our conversations with AA and it'll take time.
00:39:33
Speaker
Yeah. i when i walked into this role ah tried to create ah image in my head and the image was i was walking through times square on new year's eve and there's half a million people walking in in one direction and i' go in the opposite direction and slowly I've got a change the direction of all those other people, right?
00:39:56
Speaker
So everyone is walking hand in hand, side by side, talking the same language. And that's, you know, that's going to take time. That's three years, three to four, five years.
00:40:08
Speaker
Yes, I feel like that probably is a tight timeframe as well, we're really being honest about changing that direction. Is that a challenge? Yeah, yeah. As I said at start, my ideal scenario is that there is something that gives you like genuine authority over the sport from AA to formalize it all within year.
00:40:32
Speaker
Now I know that that that timeframe is probably incredibly unlikely, but that's that's what I would have loved to have opened up that playbook. And I see a really big community focus, an emphasis on events, on volunteers, on trail maintenance and stewardship. But I see, but we will have at least a initial agreement signed by the end of 2026 that states, Ultra is either a sub of AA for tre forb Trail and Ultra or it's its own empowered body.
00:41:01
Speaker
yeah Do you think there's any chance of getting anything like that next year? Or are we do we have to work on these longer timelines where where you have to go, okay, we can put the community stuff in place now because that's easy, we can do that.
00:41:13
Speaker
But the actual, the the the stuff that's going to make more of a difference from a longevity perspective, that is just going to be a three to five year timeline. Yeah, two two to five years. And yeah, okay, i like you use the word easy.
00:41:25
Speaker
um Yeah, right. The the community, the trail regeneration, but don't forget that is the bulk of our um membership, right? So we we do have to look after them and that's,
00:41:38
Speaker
That's just as important as the other 0.5% at higher end, right? Policies, our policies have got to change. They've got to align better with Australian athletics. The previous committee have done some really good work on that and some have.
00:41:53
Speaker
um There's got to be some changes to them. um We feel that we need a generic athletes agreement out there, but then one for each separate um event. So 2,450 trial, because each event is is different. So policies have got to be worked on and changed to represent AUTRA and the athletes.
00:42:17
Speaker
could Sorry, Gary, could you elaborate on when say policies, like what what are we talking about? In terms, sorry. Well, in terms of like there could be a um very, very broad spectrum of of policies that would be in place that you might have to align with AA. Are are there anything specific that you are having to kind of get ORTRA on board with how AA wants things? AA, it's more around those, our international selection policy, um the Athletes Agreement, Code of Conduct.
00:42:47
Speaker
And there's a lot of that that is already there that was done by the previous committee. yeah um We've made some minor changes and there'll be further discussions with AA working together on how we can create the the best document that represents um the governing body, AUTO, because we've got to represent us, AA in World Mountain Trail Running Association as well, and then um the athletes.
00:43:16
Speaker
From a mountain running perspective, you said that you want to bring that underneath the ultra banner and AA currently has that. Is there any block to that happening at the moment or is that something that you think well that will be occurring?
00:43:29
Speaker
um
00:43:33
Speaker
don't necessarily see that there's a block. Look, I've heard you always hear this has happened, that's happened. yeah like here's subist ah I'm not that person to go, I don't care about what has.
00:43:46
Speaker
Let's talk about the now. let's Let's talk about, okay, well, what can we do? Can we take it on because we're set up for it now? um And we would, you know, we would do it proud.
00:43:59
Speaker
um And it ties in with the short course and long course that we do. And if it's working with Australian athletics, we're excellent, great. But, you know, we're set up to do it and and and we want to do it We actually do want to take it on.
00:44:11
Speaker
No, I think it would be great. i Before this, I was looking at the Australian Mounted Running Association's website and I don't think it's been updated in about three or four years by the looks of it. So it clearly is an afterthought.
00:44:24
Speaker
yeah at least in in in that regard. so And it is it's a very core part of trail running, potentially like the original part of trail running, especially as we've seen it from an international aspect. So yeah it would be great to see that taken on with some um enthusiasm, should we say, going forward.
00:44:41
Speaker
The sponsorship element of of the the funding model, aside from wanting to support our our athletes, is there anything that Autra is able to offer potential sponsors at the moment that's going to make it worthwhile for them outside of just a goodness of the heart perspective?
00:44:58
Speaker
um ah i'm going I'm not a marketing person or a sponsorship person and we've we've had these conversations. And do you know what? The good news, when this podcast comes out, um we will have, Ultra will have their a media, marketing and sponsorship person on board looking after all of that.
00:45:20
Speaker
um So we've had some, yeah, um initial discussions with someone and they will be coming on. um And they're the experts in it. um You know, we know we've got to tell stories.
00:45:34
Speaker
We've got to be better at our social media. it's not just It's not just Instagram and Facebook. You know, there's LinkedIn, there's X, there's YouTube. um My favorite, TikTok.
00:45:46
Speaker
Yeah. But with we've got to get better at our social media and our brand in selling our brand. Our brand is ultra and everything that comes underneath that.
00:45:57
Speaker
um I'm not an expert in that idea in that area. I've got awesome some ideas, but we needed someone to own it. And we'll have someone bringing that on and putting a marketing plan together. And once that's done, we'll share with you.
00:46:14
Speaker
And that will tie in with the the playbook and just show you the you know how we're going to get to where we want to get to through our media marketing and sponsorship.
00:46:26
Speaker
Yeah. Looking at the broader community aspect and specifically the race trackers, I... It's talking about them because, yeah you know, right, seriously, and this is my big belief, without race directors, without volunteers, we've got nothing else.
00:46:41
Speaker
We need the races. We need awesome race directors. We need awesome volunteers to create the races for the the runners um to go to. So they're like – and the work – Lisa Sherman is putting in who is like a trail runner, a track runner, a race director herself.
00:47:00
Speaker
I was speaking to her yesterday and I said, how much are you putting in at the moment? She goes about 15 to 20 hours per week on top of everything else that she does. And this all volunteer.
00:47:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. That's, well, yeah, I'm pretty pretty sure most of the team at the moment, I know Jeff and I are probably, well, we would be at that level as well.
00:47:23
Speaker
um I think everyone else is, yeah, probably 10 to 15 hours a week at the moment. But the reason is because we've got a shitload to do. Sorry for the word. but that's That's what we've got. We've got a lot to do to elevate the sport.
00:47:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, and i'm i am completely on board with I think obviously we need the race directors to put the events on, but without volunteers, nothing nothing moves moves forward. um And whether you incentivizing them with a small cash payment or free entry, it's still, it's it's a nominal amount versus the amount of time that they give to create these things to happen. And and I think it's it's something that I really wish everybody would do. and And in a way that there was like some compulsory element of if you want to enter an event
00:48:14
Speaker
or you want to get a membership, you have to commit yeah five hours to supporting another event because we all rock up and we all love this experience. But yeah when's the last time you were on an A station? When's the last time you were marshalling? Correct.
00:48:27
Speaker
Yeah. And that's like, if you take that, if if there weren't those other people and you never did it, then there'd be nothing to go to. So yeah yeah I think that's something that that needs to be maybe heard a bit more a bit more often. And it's it's incredible, especially if you are somebody that is used to being towards the front of the pack or someone used to be towards the back of the pack, you get to experience what it's like for those people at the opposite end. yeah And you can see how efficient they are through aid stations and maybe you pick up something if you're more of a back of the pack or mid-pack runner.
00:48:54
Speaker
yeah And you can see the genuine experience and love and how hard people are pushing at the back of the pack if you are more of a front pack runner. So that's my little spiel on there. But yeah also having been... We have a ah me in ah and another local up here, we have a ah race series over winter and I've been involved with single track in the past. So I know how much race directing, obviously, yes, there is a financial element. it's not but not very good.
00:49:18
Speaker
It's very much like passion projects. So the people want to create something for the sport and the community. But the thing that I've always struggled with, and I love the idea of state championships that mean something and a state series that means something and it funnels into a national championship. And then that national championship gives you something. ah Yeah.
00:49:36
Speaker
Not just your national champion. Potentially it has a ah monetary an initial monetary reward. It could open sponsorship um opportunity opportunities. It can open up the world's team opportunities.
00:49:47
Speaker
but races are all private. And so how do you incentivize race directors to want to be part of a state series or a national series and to essentially collaborate and work together like and then even maybe you have to pay a bit to be part of Autra? And like how how do you guys envision that all to work?
00:50:08
Speaker
That's a so good question. We've had... At some of our committee meetings, we've had initial conversations around if we had state associations, how they would look, um the investment into them, um how it would look for the financial side, would that each state look after their own membership and funnel up?
00:50:33
Speaker
to Autra, like Australian Athletics does, do we have state championships? Like, ah you know um the you know, the top three or top five at each race, whatever that is, they go on to the national championship. So you create something bigger.
00:50:50
Speaker
um Right now, James, I don't have the answer to that. Mm-hmm. they they're part of the the the bigger picture of like, well, is it state associations or is it state bodies?
00:51:03
Speaker
What's our best way? We've had a lot of feedback on that and we're still writing down on our paper all the ideas and then, yeah, every month just sitting down at our committee meeting and bringing our ideas and, you know, trying to work out what will be best for the sport in that way. For the...
00:51:26
Speaker
the not top 1% of the field, but for everybody else that's involved in in Trail and Ultra, these conversations that we're having about sponsorship and models and getting into the national series, for a lot of people listening that they might enjoy the conversation, but this doesn't apply to them, they'd be like, so what, why, why should I care about any of this? Yeah.
00:51:44
Speaker
To that person, what what would you say to that question? um Why would you care? Yeah. I was thinking about this about a month ago because, and I'll bring it back down to why people pay memberships.
00:52:02
Speaker
And all the chat I hear is like, well, What do I get for my $49? And, you know, do I get discounts and everything like that? It's like, yep, okay, fine.
00:52:14
Speaker
What our responsibility is, right, is trial running, ultra running, track, 100Ks, 50Ks,
00:52:22
Speaker
You're out there testing usually yourself okay against the elements, what you can get out of yourself the best, right? And you're out there with like-minded people enjoying the community aspect of it.
00:52:38
Speaker
Knowing that you're at a race that is safe, that like, you know, so it's past all safe safety standards, um you know what you're up for, all the aid stations are well looked after, they're not running out of like food or water or anything like that. So the race itself is great.
00:53:01
Speaker
Yeah. Right? That's part of Autra's responsibility with the race directors to chat with them and say, well, what is your full setup, right? So bringing in safety standards for it.
00:53:13
Speaker
So the member is paying their $49 to ensure, okay, that's looked after as well. But then that money's going back into, well, our you know our initial community, volunteer, okay, trial regeneration. The money's going back into that.
00:53:29
Speaker
It's been, you know, helped develop. Obviously, there's the the pathways for those that want to go to the top. But it's also the grassroots level.
00:53:40
Speaker
Right. And an area that we're not touching on at the moment is the youth. AUTRA has two junior members. That's it. Right. I'm not embarrassed to say that. That's good.
00:53:52
Speaker
But AUTRA doesn't offer anything within that youth environment yet. Mm-hmm. We've got some ideas around that, ideas that came out of the World Champs as well on what other countries are doing.
00:54:06
Speaker
So people that are not interested in the like you know the top end or or anything like that and questioning Where's my $49 going? going into the governing body that looks after you, that looks after race directors, that looks after volunteers, that looks after trails, that looks after the top end, that looks after the youth of the sport.
00:54:31
Speaker
We are passionate people about the sport. We want everyone moving in that same direction and we want everyone proud of their governing body that when they pay their annual fee um to AUTRA, they know it's going to something. How much? Oh, $8 is going towards, you know, volunteer month every year.
00:54:52
Speaker
That is an actual good thing. It's putting back into the sport. We're putting back into the sport of, you know, ah the the trials and I'm rambling on here. Rambling is good. We like rambling. but it's you've got to be You've got to have, I don't look at it as what am I getting out in discounts, right? Some people will. And I'm sorry if some people don't agree with that.
00:55:13
Speaker
It's about being proud. okay to be part of an organization that is driving the sport forward and looking after and free everyone. Yeah. i My personal stance is obviously that I want Autra and trail running and and all of its avenues to succeed and to, as I said at the start, to formalize and professionalize because I know that when that happens,
00:55:38
Speaker
it knocks all the way down through the field. Like the the experience at the top is felt by the bottom. It incentivizes race directors to create better quality events. It incentivizes sponsors to bring money in, which again improves the the full field experience. And so being driven by value engagement and community connection, that there they're emotional words, but they have they have a premise.
00:56:02
Speaker
and And I said at the start, like i would love to see more... concrete, this is what's going to happen, this is what we want in that playbook. But I understand that's probably less probably be not realistic for the way we are right now. um Because it would be like, okay, wait i we want to have AA give us all of these control points and we we can determine when the team gets announced with what... meant measures, um which national championships is going to lead on to what. But for the the bulk of the community side of things, it really is that the whole engagement piece.
00:56:39
Speaker
But if you are price driven, I've been a member for Ultra, I think for three or four years, the discounts you get back in like the first pair of shoes you buy, you're halfway to your membership. So like it's a simple thing, but I think that something you said earlier that I think is really important and I'm curious to see how deep you'll go into this is the transparency aspect of, okay, here's my $49, but how is that broken down? Yeah.
00:57:04
Speaker
Yeah. Because, yeah well, yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, but at the moment I don't think there is anything that says exactly how that was all working. So is that something that you're going to be doing? Yeah.
00:57:15
Speaker
that's That's part of the wheels that's like in motion um and part of yeah part of our monthly discussions and then through our WhatsApp chat group as well on how we make that better.
00:57:29
Speaker
can Can I ask you a question, right? Of course. Because to the listeners out here, right, I call this, this ah people have said this to me and um'm but I'm using these words, right? This playbook, it is bold.
00:57:45
Speaker
Okay, it's ambitious, right? But it's going to happen. um We didn't did have put something together to go, oh, hey, look, guys, this is what we're doing. And then three years down the track, nothing's getting done. That's that's it's like coaching a runner for three or four years and nothing happens. They just keep getting the same results. It's not what I'm about, man.
00:58:08
Speaker
And I know it's not what the committee's about. So my question to you, right? if You were in our position and in five years time, it's like I'm stepping aside.
00:58:21
Speaker
What are the five things that like you feel that you'd want to say we've ticked these boxes? That's a big question. the The first thing that comes to mind is clarity.
00:58:32
Speaker
clarity Clarity in the sense of i you've mentioned and bunch times about ORTRA being our governing body. but knowing exactly what governance they have and how it relates to AA because World Athletics does control the championships. And so it has to come through this pathway. That's why we're we're so focused on this.
00:58:50
Speaker
I think that from and event organization and a state structure, I would love to see a national championships that people give a crap about.
00:59:02
Speaker
Yep. And for there to be a clear pathway for not just the overall, but for the age group. Because I think that, and i and my experience from from events is the people that are probably the most engaged are those in the 40, 50, 60, 70 categories.
00:59:17
Speaker
It's not the people in the overalls. yeah and so making sure that just because you're getting older you're not getting forgotten in fact you're getting celebrated because it's bloody epic you're doing what you're doing like um i'd love to see a sport that is able to financially support our athletes, both the current athletes and the future generation.
00:59:39
Speaker
I think it's too easy to lose track of the fact that we have amazing athletes right now. And yes, we might be looking at 2032 in the Olympics and the future generations. And you're looking at the Patrick Clarks and the Alec Franskys.
00:59:52
Speaker
who like Patrick is a world champion, Alex showed that with some downhill capacity, which is just, we're not matched against Europe. He could very much be up there as well. And his younger brother, Eddie, just like so. And I'm sorry, I i know the boys. I don't know if they're girls on that same spectrum. So yes, support support them and make it make it interesting and exciting and incentivize the fact that You can become a professional athlete in trail and it's a legitimate career option and it's a pathway that we can go. But then at the same time, making it affordable and inviting for people now to actually double down and commit to it.
01:00:27
Speaker
Yep. It's really on the spot now. i'm sure i' i'm i'm sure if I'm sure if you ask somebody like Vlad or Simone, because they are, yeah i'm i'm i'm not I'm not the elite athlete here. yeah So I don't have that experience on on the world scene. i definitely I hear from them about what they say.
01:00:44
Speaker
i think the from from that environment perspective, for AA to genuinely respect trail would be really big thing. And for anybody that is going to be a presence or a voice from AA, for them to truly understand trail running and not just be,
01:01:01
Speaker
the person that gets dumped with this yeah or the existing high performance person that is i'm sure an incredible person and incredibly like understands the road scene so well but doesn't really have any context or understanding of trail um but yeah does that answer yeah yeah probably couldn't come up with with with with with five five there on on the spot but the so my reply to that is yeah clarity you're a hundred percent I fully agree with it. It's like everything is set up.
01:01:32
Speaker
Everyone knows the directions, what you need to do, who's involved. um And you know those conversations are happening to the audience out there. Those conversations are happening.
01:01:44
Speaker
It's been nothing negative that we, in terms of like our conversations um and our next ones in a couple of weeks. and we're confident that like we will have really good chats with AA and over the next six months um develop, okay, something that everyone will be happy with um and, you know, moving forward.
01:02:12
Speaker
National champs all fall under that, clear pathways, um financial support, you know, i mentioned that earlier, all of those are part of it as well.
01:02:24
Speaker
But for me, it's like to get there, to get to the clarity. Autra has to, we have to lift our game, okay? I talked about policies. David, okay, is um working with sports integrity.
01:02:41
Speaker
at the moment, okay, because we need to develop our own sports integrity policy, right? That's a big thing. That is a big thing to be recognized because when you've got that, that creates more opportunities for government grants, okay, and sponsorships coming in as well.
01:03:00
Speaker
um That's that top end, that's all of that. But the part under it is the 99.95%
01:03:08
Speaker
of runners out there, whether it's like on the trail or running 50K races or running 100Ks. Like we talk about, we've talked about trial a lot, right? 50K, we need to reinvent the wheel on that because the world champs are happening and no one applied, right?
01:03:27
Speaker
It's a simple solution and we're already putting that into play, right? Which will come out over the next like three or four months. road, right? road um worldwide, that's a challenging distance.
01:03:40
Speaker
It's a hard race. It's my favorite race. that We need to do work around that as well. 24 hours, we need to continue the success that Australia has had over that distance, over like, you know, the last 10, 15, 15 years.
01:04:00
Speaker
um You know, Backyard Ultra is my challenge to Backyard Ultra people there's a lot of people that go out there to run their 100 miles in 24 hours i reckon that's brilliant i i love backyard ultra because people are challenging themselves okay to go further and see what they can do so my challenge to those that can run 100 miles in 24 hours in the backyard ultra jump on a track and see what you can run 24 hours
01:04:31
Speaker
um You know, so we've got all of that under the ultra umbrella, but it comes back to that 99.9% of people, how are they valued? How are they seen, right?
01:04:44
Speaker
It's our responsibility to create that community where they're, and I keep saying proud of, right? Where they know they can have conversations with us. right? They know that we're out there with them, um you know, i talked about the races, okay, you know, where they feel safe and secure.
01:05:04
Speaker
and how are they recognize better storytelling, right? The biggest position, and and I mentioned it earlier, that we're bringing in is our media marketing and sponsorship person.
01:05:16
Speaker
Because having someone fully dedicated to that role, right? They're going to help us grow the vision, right? And see that investing, because it is investing, the $49 a month, it is investing into the national sport, right? And helping us grow and helping us achieve the goals that we want to achieve.
01:05:37
Speaker
Is that marketing person, is is that a paid position? is that still volunteer? we're We're talking around that, yeah. Okay. Personally, I think Ultra, right? I don't think ultra is a volunteer role any anymore.
01:05:49
Speaker
When you're looking after sport, the size of trial running and it's growing and it's booming. It's a $20 billion industry in the US. Right? So like, Yeah. um Jeff and I have had and the committee have had discussions on that. That's not an immediate thing because the money has to go towards the sport.
01:06:07
Speaker
um That is probably something not within this committee's terms in the next five years, but definitely say within the next 10 years that, you know, Autra should be moving to that model.
01:06:19
Speaker
Well, and my my my stance for this for any industry is that you can never expect the best out of something or someone if they're not being paid for their time, because that means their time has to be divided because they have to earn a living. yeah And so I think it's anyone that thinks that this role should always be a volunteer is naive to the fact that you can't be spending 20 hours a week for life on this because there's a simple matter of...
01:06:46
Speaker
of of of either economics or you're having to sacrifice something else, like time with family, your own health. There's all these all these things. And yeah if you want something done right, you need it needs to be your your focus and therefore needs to be your income, I i personally believe.
01:07:01
Speaker
Yeah. What I can say, and you're 100%, right? um Myself and Jeff and Lisa and Dan, David and Ben, um Everyone, like Jeff's been involved in the trial community. Like he's he's like a like a god up in Queensland. I don't get it. Like, you know, everyone just talks so well of him all the time.
01:07:23
Speaker
Lisa's involvement, um Dan, our secretary, he's ran for Australia 24 hour. um Ben has been involved in trial running committees and state reps and down in South Australia.
01:07:36
Speaker
And David's probably the newest one, but he's trying to crack the the top 10 number of kilometres run this year as a trail runner. um we This team brings more than just, yeah, we're sitting on a committee,
01:07:53
Speaker
You know, we meet once month or every two months to chat and everything. like can Every listener out there, this committee is more than that. um where like The passion within wanting to take this sport to a new level, or to a new level and bring the sport and everyone along with it, it's there.
01:08:14
Speaker
um And we're happy to give that time for this to happen. If we're having and another another conversation in 12 months' time, And we will be. And we will be. No, we will. We should. and No, no. And and like as I said, I'm 100% a supporter of Altra and everything you guys are trying to do.
01:08:33
Speaker
At the same time, from the podcast perspective... Are you going to sponsor us? God, no. Either way around? No. But from the podcast perspective, we we will always be and like an impartial voice where we will hold you to accountability, but also like offer help because that's...
01:08:50
Speaker
As you said at the start, being a critique of something makes no difference if you're not going to offer a solution. Correct. if we're talking in a year's time and I'm saying, okay, a year ago, Gary, you told me that success in your role and for Ortra in the next 12 months it looks like this. Have you managed to achieve that?
01:09:07
Speaker
what What does that success criteria look like for you? way Where we're at in 12 months? Yeah. Yeah, cool. So volunteer, volunteer.
01:09:18
Speaker
um month happened, trial regeneration month happened. They're the first two ticks. We've hit a certain number of more races on our calendar and it's becoming more of an interactive calendar. And there's a whole lot of stuff around that, which is another topic.
01:09:34
Speaker
um So that's that. ah Our policies, um I think if you speak to David, he'll have the majority of all of our policies updated within within the next 12 months and then well into the sports integrity um side of it.
01:09:54
Speaker
ah Financial sustainability. okay, is a lot better, more revenue coming in. And again, I could go on that. there's There's like six, seven um pathways of that um that we're working on.
01:10:09
Speaker
So further down the track with that, ah state bodies associations, the first one out and moving, we're ready to go at the beginning of 2027. And the one that you want to hear is what are we doing for the athletes at the top end, right?
01:10:27
Speaker
Look, funded, Athlete funded. um I don't like athletes putting into their pocket to pay to go and represent Australia. So further down the track on that.
01:10:40
Speaker
Now we can't guarantee that it'll be fully funded, but better funding for the athletes. National champs have meeting and this is out to Vlad, right? Because he said, i heard the podcast. It's like national championships need to have a meeting.
01:10:57
Speaker
Yeah. Um, We want the national championships to have a meeting. meaning um The ones and you know I know there was talk about the ones that we've selected this year.
01:11:09
Speaker
yeah right It all starts with 2026 on what we're working towards. um Our storytelling to the community, you know much better.
01:11:21
Speaker
Recognizing every single runner out there, whether it's like the first the last person across at UTA in 27 hours.
01:11:32
Speaker
Um, what else? Well, so i um I'm going to ask to like dig just a little bit deeper. So quick question on the calendar. We said more on there. Is that as in you want more races or you want the ultra calendar to be more comprehensive for what's actually out there?
01:11:45
Speaker
both So you want more races? Yeah, yeah, like listing more races with Autra. ah um But they've got to have a purpose to list because given a race these days can go out and do their own marketing and everything can sell out within 24 hours. So what is the point of having Autra?
01:12:06
Speaker
So there's there's conversations around that. We feel that there should be gradings on trail races, how technical, how hard, because when an athlete's looking in a calendar, it's like they don't, what's our toughest?
01:12:20
Speaker
Buffalo's one of our toughest races, um Stampede or ta down in Tassie. So, you know, is it a grade five, is it a grade four, or is it more of a grade one, grade two, yeah think you know, easier and entry level?
01:12:33
Speaker
Yeah. um So, yeah, ideas are being discussed around that and what we do with that as well. But we would love to have every single trial race listed on the ORTRA website.
01:12:46
Speaker
To be listed, it costs the event organisers... money Maybe, maybe not. We're looking at different ways where it might might they might just list for free. Okay. So, yeah, they again, they're discussions that we're having. And a lot of ideas have come from, you know, the community on that as well.
01:13:05
Speaker
In terms of looking at Asia Pacific and the funding that is available for athletes by then, do you have a, we would love to have 25% their costs covered or every athlete's flight will be covered. Is is there like a more well and number that you guys are looking for in the next, that period?
01:13:23
Speaker
For the Asia, so for Asia, okay, Ultra looks after the Asian Championships. Yeah. So, accommodations covered, uniforms are covered.
01:13:34
Speaker
On uniforms, we're talking, you know, we started the process of talking to other people now on what we can do with our uniforms, with the kit for representing. So, those conversations have already started externally.
01:13:48
Speaker
um So, I'll start again. i lost my train of No, go it. Yeah, accommodation. uniform um transport over there as well airfares is a tough one um at the moment probably not within the first 12 months no it'd be great if we do awesome but better funding The whole idea of paying everything for yourself doesn't sit well with us.
01:14:14
Speaker
Yeah. um so And that falls in with we we just had the 24-hour world championships and their their accommodation, their uniforms, transport over there, that that was all covered for them.
01:14:29
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So the the reason that it wasn't covered for the World Mountain Trail was because it's an AA governed, not ultra-governed. Yeah, AA do run the World Mountain, trial running associations.
01:14:42
Speaker
And look, again, I'm not going to have the conversations, but there were reasons for that, yeah right? And they do want to change it. Like I can honestly say Australian athletics do want to change that part of it, but they're just discussion discussions that have got to have um that we've got to have and, you know, see how we do that better.
01:15:05
Speaker
And on the national championships, for personal curiosity, how how are they chosen for to be like, obviously I know there's criteria, but like why is that event chosen to be the national championships?
01:15:16
Speaker
So step one for us was to select races because we don't, we could just give Buffalo Stampede everything because it's all set up and we could go down there and have a big trail running um festival and it'd be awesome. And look, we we do want to do that. You see in the playbook on what we want to do.
01:15:37
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, It's about Australia is a big country, right? And we don't want to just have races here on the Eastern Seaboard, right? It's got to be spread out. And that that was step one, to try and spread out the races, okay the okay, of the applications that came through. And we did have quite a few applications across um or all events.
01:16:04
Speaker
Now, first part for us was the timing of the events with November, being the Asian World Championships, you're not going to have ah qualifying race in October or September, even all the way up to July, right? So for us, it was like, what races are when, how far out from the Asian Championships, that gives enough time, okay, for the Championships to be held.
01:16:30
Speaker
Because ideally, and hopefully we'll have good news about this at the end of November, that, you know, there might be some automatic selections, okay? And I say might be.
01:16:41
Speaker
um That's part of it. So that that's step one. Year one, 2026, that's what we're looking at. Let's have the championships in a good timeframe, which allows people, if there is automatic qualifications, okay, that timeframe to race and then start looking towards Asia.
01:16:58
Speaker
Does that make sense? No, it does. And I am glad that you haven't come out and said that we're trying to get complete funding by Asia Pacific. I respect people saying like, no, this is a clear barrier. Like we cannot do this in that timeframe because that you it garners trust.
01:17:14
Speaker
yeah um And that's, I think at the end of the day, if there's things you know you physically can't do in that time, I like to be told, no, we can't do that. Not leaving a door open for a bit of optimism that's that's false.
01:17:25
Speaker
James, when... james when When this was, so we had the discussion around this playbook and and everything was there. And I asked myself the question, right? Because when you put something together, right? It's like coaching. You put a plan together for an athlete, right?
01:17:44
Speaker
You've got to back yourself and believe in yourself in what you're putting together for that athlete. right it's exactly the same for this this this role is not hard right people think this is bold and ambitious yes it is right but I ask myself can we do it right can we do it yes we can I looked at what do we need I'd love to show you this spider web organization chart that I put together and kind of showed the committee last time ah meeting that we had.
01:18:18
Speaker
And it was like, there was a bit of a silence when I showed because there's 19 positions that we could fill tomorrow. 19. nineteen And if we could fill all 19 of those positions tomorrow, far out, we're going to move.
01:18:33
Speaker
right So it's not a matter of, I want people to understand, we just haven't thrown this together, right, without conversations, without forward thinking on, well, how do we get there?
01:18:45
Speaker
Yep, we can't promise everything, but everything has been, there's been a lot of bloody work put together. It's like, well, this is the step. What are the next steps after that, right? And what do we need?
01:18:57
Speaker
and Okay, what does the committee, what do our committee members need? Because I don't want them spending 20 hours a week on it. It's like 10 hours a week and then having people around that.
01:19:10
Speaker
We've spoken about a lot of stuff today, like touched on a lot of topics. And I do like, again, thank you for coming on, being happy to to have have these questions. And I know that there's a lot of stuff that we just, you're not going to have the answers to yet, no matter how many times I try to ask it a different way.
01:19:25
Speaker
um But is there is is is there anything that we haven't given enough time to, or just a question I simply haven't asked that you do want to bring up for everyone's attention? Oh, heaps. we wish we James, I could talk about this all day. um t Look, ill let me run through some of the things just quickly, right? you know um You know, we we talked about what's the gold of the national champs, top 20 runners, top 30 runners, okay, competing, and then the top age groups, guys. So, you know, we ticked that off.
01:20:03
Speaker
but how do we get there? And it's like conversations with the runners, the committee, ah okay, race directors and partners to create all of those possible things that we talked about, you know, on like, you know, um prize money or flying, you know, people to the races. So there's a lot of conversations that's got to happen around that.
01:20:28
Speaker
um I know Jeff, um is talking to Nancy Hobbs, um who put together the trial running association in America, right? So she looks after it. Well, I'm not sure she still does, but he's going to talk with her to see how they do it, right? So again, it's conversations, right, with people that have done it,
01:20:55
Speaker
so we can learn off them to make what we do better as well. um Jeff's, you know, Jeff, he's got an article coming out at the end of next month in the Ultra Ultra Mag based on the World Mountain World Champs, trial world champs, um work well worth a read. It's it's awesome.
01:21:14
Speaker
um So there's things around that. um You know, the 50, we've talked a lot about trial, which I know is a big part of our space now. um You know, it's the 50K, like what I'm excited about that, it's always you've had to run a 50K qualification, right? We don't have a lot of 50K races here, right?
01:21:36
Speaker
So what we're changing is now marathon times because there's hundreds of thousands of people running marathons, right? And we'll have an A, B and C qualifier for marathon times that you can submit for 50K world championships. So, you know, those things.
01:21:56
Speaker
um The things that we've done, like the policies that we've developed, changes we've made, listening to athletes, a lot of little things, bringing in team manager for our championships. It used to be a committee member.
01:22:12
Speaker
um I think if you want to be transparent and open and moving into the future, and if you want to engage more people, Far out, there are so many more brighter and smarter people than me out there that I'm trying to connect that can help us grow this sport. And that's why bringing in team manager, and we just had a really good 24-hour World Champs where the athletes feedback the from runners that are represented four or five times was that was one of the best team environments that they've been around because everything was set up properly.
01:22:48
Speaker
Conversations had, athletes arrived over in France. All they had to do was tie their shoelaces and run. They didn't have to think. So, you we're about the sport. We're doing this for the sport and the people and every single runner out there.
01:23:03
Speaker
Yeah, think that's a good way to to end it. Thanks. I appreciate your time. No, thank you for having me on. And can I just say anyone ever wants to, you know, if they've got ideas or even, you know, criticisms or anything on the playbook, my email's there. Just reach out.
01:23:21
Speaker
um Just reach out, had the have the conversations and keep, you know, keep talking about the sport. That's what we want to hear. Perfect. Well, Gary, thank you again for your time. ah do really appreciate it and I'm sure we'll be catching up soon.
01:23:35
Speaker
Cheers. That was a pretty big one. There's a lot of topics in there that we covered that Gary could provide some really good clarity on, but there's also a lot of topics that have been left vague and very emotive, but potentially we need the evidence to back up and trust that the direction that we all want the sport to head in is going to eventuate.
01:23:57
Speaker
My takeaway from this is that the people behind ORTRA have every intention to support and be advocates for the sport, but to turn that advocacy into governance. Now, the timeline of that is still to be seen.
01:24:12
Speaker
We are obviously hoping that this is going to be in the more near future than say 2028 or 2029 but the thing we can definitely agree on is that the next 12 months are going to be crucial both for Gary and his team to act and empower the words that they are put on paper and for the sport to see believe feel the difference that's going to make trail running is growing at an incredibly rapid rate and Australia is noticing the world is noticing from elite representation to the everyday participant and how clubs are all going to work into that
01:24:43
Speaker
we are very much going to be determined by the direction that Ultra wants to take us. And so your feedback is incredibly important. Gary mentioned this multiple times in the podcast, but they are very happy and they are willing and eager to hear from everybody in the sport, from the elites to the first timers, from the age groupers to the youths. If you care about the sport of trail running, mountain running or Ultra, and you want to have your voice heard, please use it so that the direction the sport is heading is one that you can hopefully align with, support,
01:25:13
Speaker
and be engaged and invested by. Regardless of your takeaway about where Altra is right now or how much you care about the elite side of the field, the big thing from this is to support your local events, volunteer, be a positive voice and ambassador for the sport, and keep asking questions.
01:25:28
Speaker
As I said in the podcast, we support the sport. We want to see the sport grow and move forward. Ultra are trying to do that for us, but we will also hold them accountable to all these things in which Gary has said today and everything that's in the playbook. Join us in that so that we can take the sport to a new height, to a new professionalized level within Australia, which will have flow on effect from the elites all the way down to the everyday trail, mountain or ultra runner. As always, i hope you enjoyed that conversation and we'll catch you on the next one.