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Episode 10: Rambo vs. Joel – Trailer Park 10s & Pocket Sand
27 Plays21 days ago
Two hardened survivors enter the arena—but only one limps out. In this episode, we put John Rambo and Joel Miller under the microscope (and in the crosshairs). We debate their trauma tolerances and tactical brainpower—and ask the big questions: Is a golf club actually more dangerous than a helicopter? Who should play young Rambo in a prequel? And what’s Joel’s actual body count?
Also featuring butt-crack knives: tactical genius or hygiene nightmare? Plus, if one of us keeps calling him “Pablo Pascal,” does that invalidate his argument?
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Transcript
Introduction to the Tournament
00:00:07
Speaker
This is the fictional fighting championship podcast, the ultimate battleground where Hollywood's deadliest warriors collide. We're taking 48 of the most ruthless, skilled, and battle-hardened fighters from movies and TV and throwing them into a no-holds-bar tournament to see who survives.
00:00:26
Speaker
You've seen the movies, you know the legends. Now it's time to settle the score.
Hosts' Humorous Banter and Introductions
00:00:39
Speaker
I'm so full of borscht right now. Why would you choose to eat that? Kelly brought home a shit ton of borscht from work. Does she work at the Kremlin?
00:00:50
Speaker
I'm Jordan Guerrero. I'm Christian Doherty. And I'm Steve Sadler. And this is a podcast about the greatest fictional tournament in the history of the universe. And that is not an exaggeration.
00:01:03
Speaker
Chris, who do we have today? Steve, Jordan, I am at an 11 out of 10 right now. um We have an amazing matchup today.
Semifinal Showdown: Rambo vs. Joel
00:01:12
Speaker
One of the semifinal matchups in the Mayhem region.
00:01:16
Speaker
We are getting towards the end of this region. We've gone through a number of contestants. the four These four contestants that are now in this semifinal are the best and the baddest from any movies. For this particular matchup, we have one of our favorites, John Rambo, against someone I would classify as a sleeper, perhaps? Joel from The Last of Us.
00:01:41
Speaker
And since you teased it, I think that we should take a minute here and just kind of reset and tell everybody where we are in the in this tournament. So you mentioned the Mayhem bracket.
00:01:52
Speaker
ah Imagine March Madness, and it's always broken into four. It's always like East and Southeast and West, four different brackets. That's what we've got. This is the Mayhem region, and we are down to only four contenders left in this region.
Discussing Eliminated Contestants
00:02:06
Speaker
Today's matchup, Rambo and Joel. And then next week's matchup, which is King Leonidas from 300 and Christian Wolfe from The Accountant. So that's it. That's all that's left in this region. Other warriors who appeared in this bracket and have been eliminated, might as well just go through them, right?
00:02:22
Speaker
Hannibal Lecter, Jax Teller from Sons of Anarchy, Dexter Morgan, Dalton from Roadhouse, William Wallace from Braveheart, Colonel James Braddock from Missing in Action, The Man with No Name from the Dollars Trilogy, and Machete.
00:02:36
Speaker
So those guys have already been eliminated. Absolute beasts. So let me ask you guys this. Did we make any mistakes? Yes, we definitely did. You were so sure about that. Okay.
00:02:48
Speaker
All right. So ah the first one was Hannibal Lecter versus Dexter. You two voted for Dexter. And as I said before, you were incorrect. Hannibal Lecter, I think, had some of the ingenuity and especially in the TV show, the strength and fighting skills to take on Dexter.
00:03:06
Speaker
Now, I'm not saying he's going to take it to the end, but I'm saying he could have made it out of his first level in that bracket to at least live another day. Yeah, thinking back on it, I do think that Hannibal Lecter is more like raw and unpredictable and just insane and intense.
00:03:23
Speaker
And I think that perhaps could have given him the edge over Dexter. Yeah. But sorry, Jordan, it's a goddamn fact. We already decided. Bingo. Bingo.
00:03:34
Speaker
It is the one that we got the most grief for. And it was our first episode ever. And no, I apologize for nothing. So the answer is no, we made zero mistakes.
00:03:45
Speaker
I did want to just mention actually that, and I spoke about this in that episode. I think it was episode four, William Wallace versus Leonidas. Not that we made any mistakes in the choice, but I do think whatever fucking algorithm you use, Steve,
00:04:00
Speaker
put a favorite in William Wallace against a favorite in Leonidas, just kind of a terrible matchup, putting those two together. Well, that leads to my next question. I was going to ask you guys, we have four left in this region.
00:04:12
Speaker
Are they the best four? Hmm. Yeah. and Yeah. and I think we got all the right picks here. You think so? Okay. Yeah, I agree. Chris, what do you have? You you were looking skeptical.
00:04:25
Speaker
No, I'm not skeptical. I just think the the proof is there in that these guys have beaten others. i'm I'm also bummed that William Wallace got out so early, though.
00:04:35
Speaker
Like, I'm looking at some people who we've got in the final four. looking at Joel versus William Wallace. Like, that would be a solid matchup right there. And off the top of my head... I can't tell you who's who's going to win that one.
00:04:47
Speaker
William Wallace. Yeah, I don't know what William Wallace should be a wild card pick for us because i I feel like that movie just gets you so jazzed that you want him to win the entire movie. It just breaks my heart to see him gone so soon.
00:04:58
Speaker
He brings so much Scotland energy that I wish we had in this tournament. Yeah. I think Wallace is the guy, right? So I was going to also say, hey, if there was you know a lifeline that we offered him, maybe we needed ah somebody else in another bracket later on.
00:05:13
Speaker
Is Wallace the wild card? Is he the guy we would invite back? I think so. He's got my pick. He's my favorite out of the losers. okay Are they the best four? I don't. I do think so. Strength of schedule is something that you've referred to before, Steve. And just the fact that the final four here have beaten all of those previous guys. And I think it was pretty definitive.
00:05:34
Speaker
Yeah. So yeah, happy happy that they're all where they are. Chris was ready to be a traitor to his mother nation and fly the Scottish flag just to get William Wallace in this one. Hey, last thing on this, just kind of to reset for everyone. Again, this episode and next episode, we're only going to have two guys left in this region, both advanced to what we're calling the apex eight. So this is really coming to a head that tonight Rambo or Joel will advance to the apex eight, which is the absolute elite of the elite in this tournament. So we'll have our first two contestants here very, very soon.
00:06:06
Speaker
Are we ready to move on to this epic matchup? Hey, Jordan, what should our listeners do if they like what they hear?
Engagement and Social Media Promo
00:06:13
Speaker
you like what you hear, give us a follow on Instagram or Facebook.
00:06:16
Speaker
Even better, hit follow on Spotify or Apple Podcasts so you never miss a single show. And hey, you really love us, tell your friends, tell your coworkers, bring it up in a business development meeting where it's entirely inappropriate, but you still get someone to sign up to your podcast that you're trying to promote.
00:06:31
Speaker
Shout out to me for doing that. So give us a follow, guys. Nice. Thank you. Nice pat the back. All right. Let's go to the tail the tape.
Character Breakdown: John Rambo
00:06:46
Speaker
First contestant here is Rambo. He debuted in 1982 in First Blood, portrayed by Sylvester Stallone. His fight stats, he's about 5'10", and he's about 185 to 190. And at the time of his debut, he was about 34 years old.
00:07:00
Speaker
His home turf, he's fighting out of Bowie, Arizona. Also out of Hope, Washington, out of Vietnam, out of the Burmese jungle, Afghanistan, you name it. Signature move. ah What do you think?
00:07:12
Speaker
Any primitive weapon, any modern weapon, any vehicle that is used to kill people, he has it all. How about this? His signature move is death.
00:07:23
Speaker
Yep. I feel like that or a primal scream. And that's not even just Rambo. I feel like that's any Sylvester Stallone movie. Like, you know, yeah you hear him in Rocky. what What was the name of his wife? like Lucilla. Adrian. Adrian, yeah.
00:07:36
Speaker
All right. And a vibe check for Rambo. brooding, tight thousand thousand yard stare, tough guy act. Not really an act. He he follows it up with action.
00:07:48
Speaker
yep How much action does he follow it up with, Steve? what What's the kill count on this guy? Kill count, just as a reminder, approximately 552. Unreal. While we're unreal ah while while we're on height, weight, age stats, Jordan came in hot to record tonight talking about how he was full on borscht.
00:08:07
Speaker
I had no idea what the fuck borscht was, but this dude is still stuffing his face right now after complaining that he was full. What's this guy's weight stats? Jordan's weight stats.
00:08:18
Speaker
He is the same as Rambo. 190. Let's give let let's give me five eleven
00:08:35
Speaker
Tale the Tape,
Character Breakdown: Joel Miller
00:08:36
Speaker
Joel Miller. He debuted in 2023 on The Last of Us. He's portrayed by Pedro Pascal. His fight stats, he's approximately 6'1", and around 200 pounds.
00:08:46
Speaker
And at the time of his debut, he he was in his early 50s. His home turf, he's fighting out a post-pandemic, the Boston QZ, Jackson, Wyoming, and a few other places in between, Kansas City.
00:08:56
Speaker
Signature move, what do you think? Yeah, I never saw him do this, but I feel like his signature move would be throwing sand in your eyes. so Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, there's a dirty fight, pull out some bullshit like that.
00:09:09
Speaker
Some intense interrogation tactics as well. He's going to trap you and stab you in the kneecap to get the answers that he needs. And his vibe check, also brooding, kind of grizzled, like a wounded guard dog. Defensive.
00:09:23
Speaker
Yep. And his kill count on screen, only about 30 or 35. And then we know for a fact that they reference another 10 or 15. So as high as 50, even though we have a feeling it's been more.
00:09:34
Speaker
And let me play that right now because we remember him talking to his brother. And he's like, yeah, you know, we did those things to survive. And his brother had a retort to that. They weren't fangs.
00:09:47
Speaker
We murdered people. There's a direct reference to what they were actually doing. 40 to 50 is probably pretty lenient.
00:10:01
Speaker
Let's jump to the character breakdown. We're going to start with Rambo.
Rambo's Battle Highlights
00:10:05
Speaker
Who did he beat? He beat the man with no name. Clearly he had a buy in the first round, so he had to beat the Clint Eastwood character. Anybody want to do a little recap on how and why he won that fight?
00:10:14
Speaker
I mean, he's a well-rounded absolute beast man with no name. He was a skilled shooter with his pistol. He was good with his rifle, kind of a mediocre hand to hand average at best. And then you've got Rambo, John fucking Rambo. I mean, you don't even have to have seen the movie. You've heard his name. Yeah. yeah John Rambo kicked his ass.
00:10:30
Speaker
And it's too bad. he Man with no names, a legend, Clint Eastwood. We had to have, we want to have a great character. he is a great character. It was like you're bragging about dating a hottest looking girl in your small high school, but then you you go to college and you found out she's at best a seven. that's That's man with no name. As soon as Rambo walked in the door, it's like, oh shit. Yeah, I think he was just like too laid back as a character. And i mean, he is the shit when you watch the movies. Like he is very, very cool. But Rambo is just way too aggressive and forward. You know, he's going to come at his enemy.
00:11:03
Speaker
The man with no name just wouldn't have been able to put up with that. Great, great character, but fictional fighting championship is a different level. No trailer park tens here. Let's talk about some bad-ass moments though for Rambo. There were so many and let's try to challenge ourselves and not talk about the same ones that we talked the first time. Cause there's so many of them. Let's see if we can come up with some, some new ones here.
00:11:24
Speaker
Anything come to mind? ah Yeah. In Rambo two, this there's a scene that always stood out to me where he was tied to the bed frame and he was just electrocuted repeatedly. That looks goddamn awful. This, he was one tough motherfucker.
00:11:37
Speaker
And then he got out of it. killed everyone around there and just in casual rambo fashion brushed it off like it was fucking nothing like this guy's a badass jordan spoke about some badass moments in the last episode from rambo 3 and i just want to reiterate one of those was when he went up against korov you know wrapped the rope around his neck threw him down a hole and then ah the dude got exploded by the grenade that rambo pulled the pin from that was awesome and Just in speaking about Rambo 3, the final scene where he fucking has a jousting match, riding in a tank full force towards ah the Russian attack helicopter and obliterates that helicopter, drives the tank right into it. The thing explodes and Rambo survives. Super badass.
00:12:25
Speaker
There's so many badass moments. This one has not been brought up yet. He ripped out a guy's heart in last blood. He cut the guy open. He was still alive. He scored his chest both ways and then reached in and grabbed it and pulled it out. And it still had one beat left before it stopped. That was bad. He pulled out a man's heart.
00:12:46
Speaker
I think that signature move should be called the Kalima, like some Indiana Jones Temple of Doom right there. He's ripping throats, ripping out he ripped out a guy's throats, hearts, you name it. He also, and another one we didn't mention, which is absolutely insane, Rambo 4. There was like an undetonated bomb left over from World War II just laying there. And he attached a claymore to it and blew it up. And there was a mushroom cloud mile high. He had to kill 100 people with that. And it just wiped out the and entire forest. And he outran it, too.
00:13:19
Speaker
Uh-uh. Uh-uh. I'm going to give you a free pass on that bomb being from world war two and the jungles of Southeast Asia. But yeah, that was probably a leftover from a war. Wasn't it?
00:13:36
Speaker
Shall we run the gauntlet? Let's run the gauntlet. All right. At what age could we take him? At what age could we take John Rambo? We never really see him as a kid. We always see him as an adult. I just have to project back and imagine what he was like as a kid. He he was still probably a freaking killer. I'm going to throw out 14.
00:13:54
Speaker
I'm going to say I could take ja John Rambo at age 14 just based off of my size, which is average. We need a Rambo prequel. Maybe the training that he went through to get to the point that he was at in Rambo 1.
00:14:07
Speaker
I have this written down. There's got to be a prequel. Who would play Rambo if there's a prequel? Oh man, yeah, that's a really good question. Aaron Taylor Johnson. He was in Kick-Ass. He has pretty good long like curly hair. He was in a bullet Bullet Train.
00:14:23
Speaker
think they kind of look a little similar. I think I got a good one. What about Jeremy Ellen White? Yeah. Yeah. From the bear. Yeah. they'd He'd be great. He has a similar facial features as well. Kind of has.
00:14:34
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway, I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah. I, you know, we need a prequel thinking in thinking that he'd like maybe joined the army when he was like 18. Maybe he didn't have any skills prior to that. So I'm going to go 17.
00:14:46
Speaker
Okay. Damn. All right. I think that's insane. It's a natural born killer. I would say six months. Oh man. I can just picturing like a baby with a long curly mullet and abs and a red headband, a bullet, a bullet chain. All right.
00:15:05
Speaker
<unk>s So maybe that's a good, that'd be great. Camouflage. all right. What's next? Hell in a cell. So him and Joel in a cell hand to hand combat who wins how many times out of 10, no weapons.
00:15:17
Speaker
Gosh, i okay I don't know. What's your take, Steve? um Yeah. Okay. So Rambo's elite in this format, but can you even imagine how terrifying it would be to see him on the other side of the cage? I think Rambo goes all like pride era Vonderlay Silva on Joel. If they do this in a cage, no weapons. Joel is a tough dude and a little bit bigger.
00:15:39
Speaker
Let's say Rambo wins eight out of 10 times. Yeah, I could see that. I could see Joel going the distance though and just taking an absolute beating from Rambo, still being able to stand. I'm going to go 7 out of 10 for Rambo.
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think I'm going to go with you, Chris. 7 out 10 for Rambo. 3 out of 10. um'm I'm going to give it to Joel because I see him pulling some move where he acts injured and feeble. He's lying on the ground and you know pulls that pocket sand, kicks dirt in his face or something like that, and and somehow gets out of it.
00:16:08
Speaker
Casting couch. Could Sylvester Stallone play Joel Miller in The Last of Us? Yeah. Yeah. I think he'd be half decent. He's got the same brooding vibe. He wouldn't have to say much. He just kind of grimaces and kills people and has like an awkward, non-functional relationship with his weird pseudo daughter.
00:16:25
Speaker
I could see that. I think it changes the arc. I don't know. I mean, he'd have a little sidekick with him. I don't know how that would work. I think it'd be more about war instead of about loss, but it wouldn't be terrible.
00:16:36
Speaker
Yeah, definitely more action packed, you know, more killing zombies, more blowing them up. Who should Rambo have killed? There's so many different characters. Easy. Are we all going to fight over the same one? Who who wants to say what I'm going to say is the obvious one?
00:16:51
Speaker
I got three obvious ones. Most yeah obvious one for me, not because he fucked with Rambo the most and Rambo didn't kill him. I think there are other characters who did that, but just the pettiest bullshit. His name is Michael. He was in Rambo four and he was the missionary guy on that boat.
00:17:06
Speaker
After these dudes came up there, they were going to murder, kill, fuck with all of them. Rambo saves their lives, pulls out his pistol, kills all these guys who are about to absolutely pillage them. They get back. Michael looks him in the eyes and says, you know, I have to report this. Taking a life is never right. And you just look at Rambo and you're like, come on, slap him at least. and There needs to be some justice here.
00:17:26
Speaker
Yeah, then i got I got Murdoch also. Murdoch literally set him up to be killed. So fuck that guy and fuck Teasel too. And you know what? He also should have killed Rita. He should have gone to the other universe, not to kill Dexter, but to kill his wife. Yeah, Dexter refused to kill her. Rambo should have done it.
00:17:44
Speaker
Steve just going off right now. you want me do a 10 minutes on Rita right now? That's the real reason why Dexter lasted so long, so he can keep bitching about Rita. Yeah, you guys cut out my Rita rant. The first one, he had to win so I can do it again.
00:17:58
Speaker
Yeah, no, I'm there's so many characters that I think he should have killed. And I'm also in Rambo for with Jordan, but this time with the mouthy British mercenary gets on the boat with them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that guy. Yeah. And his his accent, he just lays it on really thick.
00:18:13
Speaker
You know, he's like, Oh, what's your problem? 8,000 yards there. then ah it's great seeing it's great seeing Rambo fucking pull that arrow and threaten him. yeah He should have just let that thing go. Just ended the dude. He should have ended him on the boat when he was giving him lip.
00:18:29
Speaker
Just to throw him over. All right, let's keep rolling here. What do we got? Tag team partner. WWE style tag team partner. Who's Rambo taking? Chris, you have anyone for this? So I could see him teaming up with someone who is also just an absolute beast and then being the main headliners in the WWE, someone like Triple H and Shawn Michaels in Degeneration X. And that would be really easy. You know, I could pick someone like Schwarzenegger or ah something from Commando, but I got to go back to talking about how much I love Troutman. And so could be super obvious, but Troutman would be an amazing tag team partner in a w WWE style. He know could play the fatherly figure, maybe like a Vince McMahon or something. I'd go with Troutman.
00:19:08
Speaker
Pretty good. Well, you were tap dancing around my pick. I got to pick John Matrix from Commando. These guys would be unbeatable. It'd be like doing all these power moves, like old school road warriors, Legion of Doom, demolition type teams. I'd call them Camouflage Carnage.
00:19:23
Speaker
Nice. Cool. How about you, Jordan? I'm getting big vengeance vibes from Rambo, and I'm thinking that he needs someone that exudes vengeance. So I'm going to team him up with Frank Castle, the Punisher. I feel like they're both badass, beat down boys with a vendetta. And I'm calling these two the Payback Pack.
00:19:42
Speaker
Okay. Payback Pack here to bring the smack. Awesome. Nice.
Joel's Battle Highlights
00:19:53
Speaker
All right, let's move to Joel. Previous victory was against Dexter, the guy who kills killers. So that was a great, great matchup. How did he do it? I got written down just aggressiveness and ruthlessness. he's am I missing something obvious? He's team rolled over Dexter. Yeah, he's just too tough.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah, biggest factor. what do What do we think? Better at hand-to-hand combat? Better at weapons combat? Better at anything except serial killing? Yeah, more resilient. I think we also talked about how his planning and cunningness play into it as well. Like he he was almost just as good as Dexter in that category.
00:20:21
Speaker
Yeah, and that's what Dexter does, right? He comes in stealth mode, sneaks up behind somebody and neutralizes him. Then he finishes a job later. So that's Dexter's m MO. And let's face it, Joel has been surviving for 20 years with his head on a swivel. In this environment, literally everybody he sees might want to kill him. And he's been doing this for decades, right? So I just i couldn't allow myself to accept the fact that Dexter could possibly do that to Joel before Joel did it to Dexter.
00:20:45
Speaker
What about some badass moments for Joel? I know we touched on it last time, but come on, stand out, fireflies, taking down the hospital. Unbelievable. that one That one was crazy. He was Rambo right then. He was Rambo in that moment.
00:20:58
Speaker
Yeah. Nothing could have stopped that guy. I did have another crucial moment that I rewatched a couple times, actually. It was when they were driving into Kansas City and there's an injured guy. Sees this dude. He's kind of limping around. He needs help. He flags down the car. Joel, like spider senses were tingling. He immediately thinks, okay, this this is bullshit.
00:21:17
Speaker
it's a trap right he's thinking that already crash into like a store or laundromat or something and then he manages to take out multiple attackers and gets ellie into safety and then even though he neutralized the very last attacker took his his knife his gun whatever this dude's already shot begging for his life he used that dude's knife to kill him and he told ellie just like turn away turn away boom that is ruthless man that is ruthless aggression Yeah, we talked about that and in his in his episode.
00:21:45
Speaker
I think I mentioned that. I can't remember if I got left on the edit editing room. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you did. No, it was it was in there. yess but that that it was Yeah, that moment was so badass. And he was literally, ah he put his gun away and he's just trying to save bullets. So it goes to his ah personality is just ruthless.
00:22:01
Speaker
And I got zero negative feedback on this one. I'm 100% sure we picked the right way out for this one. Goddamn fact. Easy. Shall we run the gauntlet?
The Invincible Ages of Rambo and Joel
00:22:10
Speaker
Phase two with Joel. Hells. Sorry. At what age do you think we could take Joel?
00:22:15
Speaker
I feel like Joel, I'm just thinking about his upbringing. Like he was an electrician, you know, he he wasn't a super badass, but he also grew up with his brother and I feel like they wrestled a lot and I didn't grow up with a brother who wrestled a lot. So, uh, I'm going to say by like age 15, he was probably relatively formidable. I'm going to say I could take him out at age 17. I'm going to say he wasn't a badass until later in life.
00:22:36
Speaker
I disagree with you a little bit because Joel seems to be, at least from the games, maybe not so much Pedro Pascal, but he's like one of those dudes that has looked 40 years old his entire life. I could just imagine him being in high school and being like, that dude is, he's been held back many, many years. Just got that grizzled look and the, you know, the experience. And like you said, yeah, wrestling with his brother and stuff. Yeah, I think maybe 12.
00:23:00
Speaker
Okay. Well, I had this written down before, so I'm just going to stick with it. I may be wrong. I think that I might be getting my ass kicked here. But he was a regular civilian, even as an adult. I don't think we'd know of any type of training or or toughness or even a school fight in the backyard or anything like that.
00:23:14
Speaker
I have 17 written down. I think I could take most 17-year-olds. Uh, hell and sell. We already touched on this one. I think we gave our picks on this, how he's going to do against Rambo. But one thing we didn't touch on, we got a little mixed up last time, the casting couch other way around. What would it be like if Pablo Pascal, Pedro Pascal, what what's this guy's name again? arian pascal yeah pro yeah so So what's it going to be like if Pedro Pascal is playing John Rambo?
00:23:36
Speaker
It would be more emotional. Okay. There would be there'll be some more comedy involved. I actually like this less than The Other Way Around. and if it's Pedro Pascal, okay, he's a good actor maybe. But if it's at least somewhat Joel, the character, right? I think it would be tough for him to really pull off that aggression.
00:23:54
Speaker
i i just, yeah, I don't like this one as well as I like it The Other Way Around. Even though Pascal is probably a better actor than Stallone. Rambo, you look at him, he takes his shirt off. He's a shredded killing machine.
00:24:04
Speaker
Pablo Pascal comes out there. Pedro. and Pedro. pedre Pedro Pascal comes out there. He's not going to give the same guttural emotional response to seeing Rambo go through this. You're going to look at it and be like, I don't know. what is What is this Hollywood cinema magic here? Could he really take down all those guys?
00:24:20
Speaker
Then you see Stallone and you're like, oh, fuck yeah. He's going to kill every guy in this camp. Yeah. You mix in that Pedro and Pablo, like Joel and Paul. Yeah, we're calling him Joel finally, and then you mess up his real name.
00:24:32
Speaker
Okay, who should he have killed? Kind of an interesting category for Joel. a lot of people, names jump out to me. Joel, I'm like, fuck, there are some people he should not have killed. Yeah, think he should have killed Abby, stopped her from killing him.
00:24:46
Speaker
Yeah. Did he run into Abby in the hospital? life No. But he saved her from the zombies. I know, he saved her, and then she fucking... Yeah. You know, I got one here. I got David on here. I would love to see him kill David, that cannibal cult leader dude. Just because i hate I hated that dude.
00:25:00
Speaker
And even though Ellie got him, killed him in a really badass way, by the way. I think Joel bursting through the door of that burning building, I think that would have been sweet.
WWE-style Tag Team Scenarios
00:25:08
Speaker
That would happened. that would have been awesome. Yep. What's an ideal tag team partner for Joel?
00:25:13
Speaker
Okay. I got a good one here. What about Daryl Dixon from the walking dead? Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. yeah Nice. I mean, they're just similar vibes, similar characters. I'm going to call them the grave diggers.
00:25:24
Speaker
Badass. Hell yeah. That's a really good pairing, Steve. Thank you. but What if they're in the same universe and they meet up? That would be a great spin-off. That'd be great. what if they What if there was a spin-off of these two, but they're in the same universe, they hook up, and it's a buddy cop movie comedy.
00:25:41
Speaker
Hey, they've done ah zombie comedies before. Zombieland? Zombieland, yeah. That's a great movie. With Woody Harrelson? Woody Harrelson. Fucking Bill Murray. Rule number one, cardio.
00:25:54
Speaker
All right. I'm seeing him going out there with Mad Max. Kind of similar vibes as Daryl Dixon, obviously more current oriented, but I'm getting the wasteland post-apocalyptic vibes from both of them. They're both short spoken. They both know how to work their way around the place.
00:26:10
Speaker
I'm calling the two of these guys, the wasteland zaddies. I like it. I got to say this is has become my favorite category and I want to see all these matchups in real life. We should email them.
00:26:22
Speaker
I don't have an ideal tag team partner that would beat either of your picks, so I'm just going to stay quiet on this one. But Mad Max is one of my favorite cinematic universes for sure.
00:26:39
Speaker
Let's move on here to some open discussion. Again, this is the part where we really start digging down and all of our answers, all of our comments should in some way lead towards finding a winner. So let's see where we are right here. Let's talk about some of the tougher opponents they faced and some some memorable moments, some signature scenes, things like that for both of them and see how that might affect who's going to win this goddamn thing.
00:27:01
Speaker
I played the video game, at least Last of Us 1. He goes up against so many clickers and so many bloaters in the game. Maybe it's not featured as much in the TV series, but clickers and bloaters are absolutely insane, absolutely relentless enemies.
00:27:16
Speaker
You could imagine similar to what Rambo would be and obviously Rambo's not undead but he fights as if he is undead like he's just non-stop and he's coming at you full force and so I do think Joel could handle that type of onslaught that type of attack from Rambo and I think you know the tough opponents in the clickers and the bloaters that he's faced sets him up for success against Rambo pretty good point Can we say that Joel's kills, maybe the quantity isn't close to what Rambo's is, but Rambo's killing trained humans.
Debating Kill Counts and Challenges
00:27:47
Speaker
Joel is killing the undead. Who does the advantage go to? That's a good point. I mean, Joel's 50 something kills at the most. We're talking humans here. How many undead has John Rambo killed?
00:27:58
Speaker
Right. I'm going to say zero. And I'm going to say a lot of those zombies that Joel's killed are as hard, if not harder than some of the henchmen that Rambo's taken out. Yep. So if we add them together, I mean, come on, that's got to be fair here. We're probably talking on par 500 each of them.
00:28:12
Speaker
Yeah, over 20 years. um Easy. yeah Easy. What's that? 25 zombies a year over 20 years? so There's 500 right there. When you do the math, this is crazy. Joel could have a higher kill count in less time. Only 20 years. Rambo's been around for like 37 years.
00:28:29
Speaker
Rambo's been Rambo for like 37 years. Is Joel the ultimate killer? I don't know. We'll find out soon. Holy shit. My mind is just blown right now. All right. Hospital scene.
00:28:39
Speaker
We don't ever rehash that. Absolute beast mode. No remorse, no emotion. He just kills everybody in sight. Like a mission. Like we talked about Colonel James Braddock goes on a mission and he completes it. Joel was on a mission right there.
00:28:51
Speaker
But there's another one I wanted to talk about. He's almost dead. He's stabbed through the gut. He should have died. But he found out that Ellie was in trouble and he flips into beast mode again. He tortures these dudes.
00:29:03
Speaker
And I'm asking, how did he survive? But the more accurate question that we should be asking is, how the fuck did he get up and then start dishing out punishment? Yeah, he's he's relentless. I mean, he's very resilient. He's been through 20 years of shit. Rambo obviously has has been through similar situations, but Joel just keeps coming back.
00:29:24
Speaker
He seems to have a part in his brain that he turns off because he shows some sensitivity with Ellie. He's a protector, right? And that's his main thing. So we know that he has more of an emotional side. And in fact, I think you could argue that he is fueled by emotion in protecting Ellie, but he can flip that thing off. He can flip that emotional part off as though he's just a stone cold killer like Dexter, Hannibal Lecter, you know, those guys who have no emotion whatsoever. He can flip that thing off.
00:29:50
Speaker
That's exactly what I should have used in my tag team name. I feel like him and someone else who just holds all their emotions down. Those two could have been repressive aggressive because that's the vibe that I get from this guy. Nice. You know, you, you see him going to the shrink and he won't, won't quite open up to her cause he's repressive aggressive.
00:30:08
Speaker
I think he would pair it well with Rambo. Rambo is pretty repressive aggressive. yeah Yeah. Um, speaking of Rambo, what are some of the toughest opponents that that he's faced?
00:30:20
Speaker
Well, you guys like the big Russian. Big Russian. Yes, big Russian. Big Russian has definitely undead vibes. Just keeps on coming. I think he's a bloater. He's a bloater. Yeah. yeah I think for me, one of the most despicable characters is in Rambo 4. Kind of the the the the leader. i don't know what you call him.
00:30:38
Speaker
Whatever his military rank was. But the leader. who he gutted towards the end of that movie was pretty satisfying kill. When he got that guy, he was just a torture maniac. And also there was a, just a terrible scene where he took a boy into his, into his hut.
00:30:54
Speaker
Yeah. Well-deserved kill. I'd also say the toughest opponents and the most badass helicopters. In Rambo 1, threw a rock at helicopter and obviously didn't take the helicopter out, but killed the guy from doing that. And then in Rambo 2 and 3, he fucking, in each movie, he takes out a fucking helicopter.
00:31:14
Speaker
yeah So it's crazy. Another thing that I think is relevant in this conversation is what I call the mud wall. Rambo and Joel both fight in the elements, right?
00:31:25
Speaker
Rambo's home is the jungle, but I think he adapts to other scenarios too. Joel, lot of outdoors, lot of, lot of you know, using the environment to hide and and as weapon. Rambo...
00:31:36
Speaker
has a way of becoming his own surroundings. And that was not just a metaphor, literal in that scene where he's covered himself in mud. It just looks like ah the side of the ah the wall, right? A muddy hill or something and until somebody walks by and then boom, his eyes open up and he kills a dude from behind. That's fucking terrifying.
00:31:57
Speaker
Definitely ah a favorite moment and a signature scene for sure. He's got all those seer skills, you know, that survival of Asian resistance escape, all that military bad-ass shit that he pulls out that Joel Joel's cool, but come on. We know Joel doesn't have those kinds of skills that Rambo has with Joel.
00:32:14
Speaker
I feel like a lot of the time you're seeing him exercising, i don't know, at the edge of his comfort zone. And then you see Rambo and every time you see him take out, you know, probably 500 of the 550 guys, you're like, oh, he's barely tapping into what he has available here. He's barely revving his engine and he is just mopping the field with people.
00:32:33
Speaker
I do want to play devil's advocate a little here and. Okay. We've talked about plot armor in the past, but how do we feel about Rambo potentially having what I would call plot offense in that seemingly everything he does on the offensive when he's attacking is just successful, you know? like He's firing bow and arrows and just hitting people clean, firing bazookas, and it's going direct into helicopters to blow them up.
00:33:00
Speaker
I'm thinking Rambo 3, where he has a grenade launcher and there's a truck full of Russians and he just like pops the grenade launcher. It looks like the truck is like a half mile away and he fucking hits that thing, no problem. And the truck just explodes. So how much do we feel that Rambo has some some plot offense and that affects our thinking in in how far he's going to go in this tournament?
00:33:22
Speaker
I'd say, don't worry about that. a Steve's like, Chris, shut the fuck up. yeah but but you you got to give You got to give it to Joel for having absolutely no plot armor.
00:33:36
Speaker
You know, you you see him walk through the hospital and things like that, where it's like, how do you possibly survive? And then you see how him as a main character and like what episode two of season two just gets brutally murdered. yeah Like, Holy shit. They are not afraid to kill main characters here. That's right. So it's pretty clear that he was able to stand up like a badass with very little plot armor as compared to Rambo.
00:33:57
Speaker
So I mean, God, between that and the undead, I'm i'm leaning more towards Joel than we yeah I was at the beginning. No, you guys are bringing up some good points. And that's what this thing's all about. Let's talk about some X factors. We're we're getting close here.
00:34:09
Speaker
What makes these guys super dangerous in a fight like this against each other?
Strategies for Victory: Rambo vs. Joel
00:34:15
Speaker
think we were drawing a lot of similarities actually between them and they're both pretty ruthless and relentless and they've gone up against similar opponents it seems you know despite one going up against undead and one going against real humans but it would be amazing to see them uh fight in a cage i think there'd be a lot of back and forth you know when when you think joel was winning and beating the shit out of rambo rambo would come right back and um start beating the shit out of joel
00:34:41
Speaker
ah We see Rambo get into these types of fights. Definitely Rambo 3, he gets his ass beat by that dude with the sticks. I think that was kind of a favorite scene of some some ah fans of Rambo. So yeah, just them both being resilient.
00:35:03
Speaker
Let me throw this X factor out here, though. I mean, Rambo, what he is deadly at. It's his bare hands. It's his weapons. It's everything. I feel like in any conventional one on one, just like the Hell in a Cell that we're talking about, John Rambo is going to come out on top. He has the training in that.
00:35:18
Speaker
But that doesn't count Joel out of this. I think that Joel, we all know that he's the dirty fighter. We all know that he will not fight fair. And I think what we've seen from Rambo is he does fight with honor. He's idealistic. He will risk his life to go into the jungle and to save POWs. Fuck, Joel's not doing that. joel Joel doesn't give a shit about someone in the jungle. He he is a selfish, self-centered and deviously resourceful, dirty fighter.
00:35:43
Speaker
And I think that's what he's going to lean into when he's going on with Rambo. I think he's going to try and figure out a scenario where it's not a totally match force on force action. I think he he would have to present himself in a way to where he seems like a lesser opponent.
00:35:59
Speaker
He would have to not directly attack Rambo and he would have to let Rambo drop his guard and try and approach things on a more equal level so that Joel can whip a rabbit out of his hat and try and pull some stuff. Yeah, I think that's good. And and I'll add on to that about Joel is when you can combine his killing ability with just sheer raw emotion. And i think that is what drives him to complete these missions that he has, like the hospital, for example. I think that's unstoppable.
00:36:27
Speaker
And in a tournament full of these stereotypical emotionless killers, stone face killers, Joel's strength could be that he's all about using his emotion to finish the job. And that makes him different and different makes you good in this tournament.
00:36:42
Speaker
I guess I could add something about Rambo here. It's one of the most terrifying things I think about him is that we know he's one of the most deadly killers in history. But here's what I'm more afraid of. He doesn't just fight. He doesn't just kill. He's not machete. He disappears.
00:36:57
Speaker
He adapts. Then he pops up like a fucking ghoul right when it's time to kill. That is absolutely terrifying. to And I'm paraphrasing Rambo himself. I think it's very true. He doesn't fight in wars. He becomes the war. And I think that's absolutely true about this guy.
00:37:13
Speaker
He's the only character I think could survive in the wilderness longer than Bear Grylls. We got to come up with a path to
Declaring the Winner: Rambo's Victory
00:37:21
Speaker
victory. And I think it's fair to say most of the time it's true. There is a path to victory for everybody. So let's kind of hear what we think about, oh, if Rambo is going to win, how's he going to do it? If Joel's going to win, how's he going to do it?
00:37:34
Speaker
it's It's kind of crazy throughout this episode how we've drawn a lot of similarities between these two guys, and definitely they both seem to be survivalists, and they're resilient. And I could see each of them planning a similar path to victory as as one another, stalking their prey, trying to hide in plain sight, tracking the other down like like they were hunting. So whether it's Joel or Rambo, ah could see either of them using the skills that they've acquired over you know many many years in so many similar situations basically just tracking down and surprising the other i'll throw out a path to victory for rambo here so how are these two meeting you know as we've said before they're gonna get a letter in the mail gonna have to meet in two weeks they're gonna to encounter each other in some format so they know this is coming i haven't quite seen joel do this yet so let me start with rambo rambo we've got something to lean on here rambo five right
00:38:29
Speaker
where he's getting ready for the cartel and he goes full home alone on them. I feel like we've seen his home alone skills here. He's going to try and pull some Macaulay Culkin traps and shit like that. This guy's building bombs and tripwires and snares.
00:38:43
Speaker
He's going to do everything that he can to prepare for it. I think that if he can get Joel to go into one of his traps or if he can lure Joel out, then he's going to use the home turf advantage here.
00:38:55
Speaker
Joel, I feel like never Joel's never had the home turf advantage. He's always been a drifter, always been a little bit of a loner. And so i think he's going to have to use that to his advantage. He can't come to Rambo. He needs Rambo to come to him.
00:39:07
Speaker
I could see, you know, Joel, he he do some fucked up shit. He like, like have a a child dangling out of ah a window or something like that. Who Rambo has to come save. You you know, he he do something to get Rambo out of his comfort zone and into, into his neck of the woods.
00:39:22
Speaker
That's where I see Joel also trying to set up a trap. If Joel were to meet him, I'm not expecting Joel to come out there with a machine gun. I'm expecting him to come out there. weaponless with a tattered shirt and a white flag and try and turn this around with some kind of sneak attack on Rambo because I think Joel has at least enough self-awareness to realize he's not getting this a standard one-on-one and he's going to play to his strength.
00:39:45
Speaker
Yeah, good, good. You touched on something, home field advantage. To me, it's always an unfair fight with Rambo because everywhere is his home field advantage. He somehow finds a way to use his surroundings as a weapon, whether it's Home Alone style booby traps like you were talking about, covering himself in mud and becoming the environment like we mentioned before.
00:40:05
Speaker
Now, this is a skill set that kind of makes him sound like maybe like an evil genius type. but that is totally not what he is right you at you take that skill and then you add to that the physicality of like dutch from predator and then the elite combat training of jason born and then the ruthless cold-blooded killing of like anton chigur type guy and you have just absolute mayhem he he's like a swiss army knife of killing and literally every tool is lethal that's why he's one of the favorites in this whole tournament Now Joel, I want to talk about this for a minute because there's a path. I feel like desperation is a pretty powerful motivator.
00:40:42
Speaker
Joel lacks a few of the skills that we see in Rambo, but what he does have, he has kind of a natural killer instinct that rivals a lot of these other cold-blooded killers, right? he's He's a guy who should have died a dozen times, but he didn't. He's a survivor.
00:40:56
Speaker
I think the key to him winning is desperation. Rambo fights because he's programmed to fight. Joel fights because he's got no other options. I don't even know if he's fighting to protect Ellie, to be real honest, or if Ellie is just his second chance, him being a human again, but he's just dripping with desperation from what I see. And I think that's his wild card. If a desperate Joel took out an entire hospital shows up, he has a chance to walk out of this thing alive.
00:41:26
Speaker
Now it's time settle the score.
00:41:38
Speaker
Do you think we have a winner? It's, it's tougher than I thought it would be. I, I, at the start of this, I thought it would be easier than this is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. i'm like I'm leaning towards a winner here. Okay. Okay.
00:41:48
Speaker
Okay. Who should go first? Take it, Steve. All right. I put some thought of this. Joel is a survivor. He's a protector. He's carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. He could absolutely defeat a lot of the other challengers in this tournament and go a long way. No question about it.
00:42:04
Speaker
If you drop these two guys in a killer be killed scenario, Joel always can bring some serious pain. Rambo brings the absolute end. We said Joel wins two out of 10 times in a fair fight, or I said two out of 10 times, you said three out of 10 in a fair fight in a cage.
00:42:19
Speaker
Unfortunately, i think that's his best hope, two out of 10 times without weapons in a cage in a confined environment. Rambo does not hesitate. He doesn't feel. He just erases everything that's in front of him. And to put it simply, I just can't imagine Joel outsmarting him.
00:42:34
Speaker
I can't imagine him outclassing him. And I definitely can't see him stopping Rambo. I think Rambo doesn't win because Joel's weak. Rambo wins because Rambo is inevitable.
00:42:47
Speaker
I love the Thanos quote at the end there. Rambos is inevitable. Who has a higher kill count, Thanos or Rambo?
00:42:57
Speaker
Could Rambo kill Thanos? Probably. We all want to see that movie. I think it's odd that we've been able to draw a lot of comparisons between these two.
00:43:09
Speaker
They're both survivalists, both brooding, both closed off individuals. Joel, would say, is the more realistic post-apocalypse version of Rambo.
00:43:20
Speaker
I could see them setting traps for each other or trying to hunt each other down. They have very similar skills and they display these in trying to kill each other.
00:43:31
Speaker
We've talked about plot armor in previous episodes. I don't think Rambo has plot armor. We have seen Rambo get caught before. We've seen him struggle against his opponents and I will say Rambo has plot offense.
00:43:48
Speaker
This dude does not miss. He hits every shot, every knife he throws, every gun he shoots. He's killing people all over the place. However, joel I think is the one guy that could take these shots, he could take a beating, and he could shrug it off and keep on fighting.
00:44:07
Speaker
So maybe he is Rambo's Achilles heel.
00:44:13
Speaker
Unless, of course, you have a helicopter or a tank or even a golf club. We saw Joel get killed in season two. Even though Rambo has been caught before, tortured before, he's never been killed before.
00:44:30
Speaker
So that is why I am picking Rambo. Aside from the fact that he has a ridiculous amount of weapons, skills and fighting skills.
00:44:42
Speaker
here's Here's what I see happening with the two of them. Rambo set up traps. Rambo knows where Joel is. Rambo tries to draw Joel out. Joel tries to evade it, but eventually gets caught in one of Rambo's traps.
00:44:54
Speaker
Rambo's going to find him. Joel's going to have a good story, and it's not going to quite get through to Rambo. Joel's going to look sullen, sad eyed, and Rambo's going to go in for the kill. That's when Joel is going to pull out his pocket sand, hit him in the eyes, do some devious shit that Rambo was not expecting, pull out a knife that he had hidden in his butt crack, and then stab him in the stomach.
00:45:14
Speaker
Turns out it doesn't fucking matter because this is John Rambo and we've seen him with a bullet wound through his side, pour gunpowder into it and burn it out. Rambo looks at that, pulls it out and says, i don't give a fuck. Stabs him in the heart.
00:45:27
Speaker
Rambo's still going to take this. There's no way to kill Rambo. I love the color. that That was a great way to imagine this final fight going down.
00:45:37
Speaker
All right, guys. Jordan is absolutely correct. It was way closer than I expected it to be. I feel like Joel is almost the human version of Rambo in a way, but a lot of similarities, which I like. Yeah, I just have a lot of regrets. One, that we won't actually see these two face off in a common universe and that we can't get those damn tag teams to happen. You got to talk to the producer. I want to see some of these happen.
00:46:01
Speaker
Yeah. What if any of these matchups get to the big screen? Are we going to claim copyright or something? 100%. Absolutely. Someone's going to make money off of home all these ideas that we have. Yeah. and it's going to be us.
00:46:15
Speaker
Leave it to someone else to find out a way to make money off of a podcast. Yeah. All right, guys. Hey, this was a fun one. Rambo is always, always adds color. Joel was up to the task.
00:46:26
Speaker
I think this was a great matchup, but no waffling here. Rambo's the winner. It's a goddamn fact. The winner of next week's fight, Christian Wolf from the accountant and King Leonidas from 300 will join Rambo in the apex eight, which is the big finale.
00:46:40
Speaker
This is getting exciting guys. We'll see you next week and tell us if we got it right. Of course we did. Goddamn facts.
00:46:54
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the fictional fighting championship podcast, the world's premier destination for very serious conversations about completely made up fights produced by Chris Doherty against his better judgment.