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Episode 247: Jason Naylor, In Living Color
131 Plays4 years ago
"How do you find your style? How do you find your voice? And the truth is, I think that you don't find it until you stop trying to find it, you just make work," says Jason Naylor, @jasonnaylor, author and illustrator of Live Life Colorfully: 99 Ideas to Add Joy, Positivity, and Creativity to Your Life. It is published by Chronicle Prism.
Newsletter: brendanomeara.com
Patreon for audio mag and other goodies: patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Introduction and Book Inspiration
00:00:02
Speaker
I was trying to think about why I loved Jason Naylor's new book, Live Life Colorfully, 99 ideas to add joy, positivity, and creativity to your life so much. Yeah, it has the usual inspiration, stuff that you can find in just about any creativity book, all of value, all great to hear and great to read. I love it, baby.
00:00:28
Speaker
but it's the color aspect and specifically the fluorescent color palette that was so pervasive in the early 1990s. So Jason's book is very neon and everything was neon in the early 90s. So the color scheme of the book is very much in that vein and I love it.
00:00:48
Speaker
Plus I love illustrators and wish I was better at it and perhaps wish I could pivot to that But that is nonsense. Am I right? It's not like I have a trillion other things on my plate that I'm already just kind of sort of good at Starting over on something is not in the cards. Not right now anyway
00:01:08
Speaker
All I know is when I see lots of color, it makes me happy. It's why I've done these crayon drawings that I post on my personal Instagram. Stupid, but they're fun and kind of calming for me. I think they're fun and messy. And using crayon is such a tool of being a kid and raw and gross and messy and disorganized and imprecise. I kind of like it. It's a kind of a reflection of me, right? Makes sense.
00:01:34
Speaker
So Jason's book is badass and should face outward on your shelf to give you that pop you might need.
Podcast Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:01:42
Speaker
Oh, by the way, I'm Brendan O'Mara. Hey, and this is the Creative Nonfiction Podcast.
00:01:54
Speaker
Mmm, we love that baby. This is the show where I talk to badass people about the art and craft of telling true stories. Sometimes that's podcasters, memoir writers, essayists, narrative journalists, filmmakers. Today it's an illustrator, muralist, turned writer, and Jason Naylor. He's at Jason Naylor on Instagram.
00:02:15
Speaker
This show, uh, pairs nicely with, uh, previous episodes with, like, Michi Ng, author of Barely Functional Adult, the Scott Campbell of Adventures in Drawing, even Emily Poole, the illustrator behind the great book Bird Note.
00:02:31
Speaker
if you like, pairings like a certain wine and a certain dark chocolate, if you will. In any case, moving on to a different topic. Before we get to Jason, of course, you've got nine days as of this publication to submit your essay for summer that it needs to be in my inbox, creativenonfictionpodcastatgmail.com. Guidelines are atop the homepage of brendanomara.com.
00:02:56
Speaker
And if you aren't a member on Patreon, you'll be missing out on the CNF pod audio literary magazine.
00:03:03
Speaker
as little as $2 a month new tier you get access to the two issues of the magazine in 2021. There are other tiers worth shopping around that you'll that you can get you'll get them maybe some coaching and transcripts but in order to support the magazine we need members. I'll put money in the pockets of other writers too this isn't uh
00:03:27
Speaker
A selfish endeavor just helps subsidize the whole operation. It takes a lot of work and of course I want to pay that forward to a lot of the writers too. It would be nice to be known as a place that pays writers a lot for the amazing work that they submit and have the courage to submit.
00:03:42
Speaker
So, in any case, this podcast is partially sponsored, partially, let's just say it's sponsored by Exit 3 Media's Casualty of Words, a writing podcast for people in a hurry. Last I checked, that's you. Episodes are like usually under three minutes long and give you a little shot in the arm. I think a person once said it's kind of like a gummy vitamin.
00:04:04
Speaker
of inspiration in the morning. You could even listen to casualty of words while brushing your teeth and be like, you know what? When I'm done spitting out this used toothpaste, I'm gonna get right at it. That's what casualty of words does for you, baby. Anyway, while at brendanomare.com, there you can also get your ass on the newsletter list in my goal to subvert social media and run an end around
00:04:27
Speaker
That's the garage where we really jam and get the band together. I could send out a tweet, but Twitter decides who sees that and when. When you get a monthly email, you decide when you see it. It lands in your inbox when I send it once a month. There are no algorithms curating your email deciding when and if you see that newsletter, right?
00:04:49
Speaker
That's what I love about it. And that's why it's such a great thing to double down on a permission asset. If you can get a newsletter going, do it. If you want a little template for how to maybe set yours up, subscribe to mine. Mine is my own voice, but it's heavily inspired by Austin Kleons, among others. But I like it through my own prism, if you will. Lots of cool articles, podcast news.
00:05:16
Speaker
That kind of thing. Once a month, no spam. So far as I can tell, you can't beat it. So right now I got Jason Naylor here
Artistic Influences and Family Background
00:05:24
Speaker
today. He's an inspiring dude with a positive message that makes me want to be a better man. Stay tuned for my parting shot at the end of the show, but in the meantime, check out this conversation with Jason Naylor.
00:05:48
Speaker
pretty cool, like being, you know, a street artist and working in spray paint primarily, that, that essentially, the world in the city can be your museum, right? Yeah, I mean, I love that you called it a museum, you know, it's normally it's like the world, the city is your canvas, and it totally is. And I, the fact that you call it a museum is amazing, because in a way, like,
00:06:13
Speaker
I guess it is more than a canvas because it is people walking around viewing the work, whether they chose to or thought they were going to or not. They stumble upon it or they go to see it. But yeah, it is amazing when you put it that way. It's extra amazing.
00:06:31
Speaker
Now, I understand growing up, your mother was a great influence on you in terms of creativity, and your father had a different sensibility and gave you a real sense of maybe the nuts and bolts of turning your creativity into something that can sustain you. So I was wondering if maybe you can speak to those influences and how they turned you into the artist and person you've become today.
00:06:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I love that you brought that up. My mom is an artist, she does portraits and paintings and her work is, well, let me back up to say that she was never a professional artist per se, she did it more as a hobby and she was busy with the seven children and I'm one of seven. So, you know, in her spare time, she was able to paint and draw, she did pencil portraits and stuff like that. So,
00:07:20
Speaker
Beyond that, she's also very creative. And so me and my siblings, of course, spent a lot of time with colored pencils and paper and doing craft kind of things. I was the kid that rather than being out playing soccer, I was probably building Legos or drawing on a big sheet of paper that my mom would put out. And that was a pretty common thing as far as I can remember back. So I think that obviously sets the stage for
00:07:50
Speaker
the creative portion of the rest of my life. And then my dad, he is a commercial real estate developer and broker. And he was always discussing his business and this entrepreneurial conversations that he was having. I think they kind of rubbed off on me. And I actually went to real estate school when I was in college one summer. And I thought I was going to help him out on projects. And I hated it so much.
00:08:20
Speaker
It was so not for me. And so I actually dropped out of real estate school. And maybe he was bummed about that. Maybe it wasn't. It was sort of a non-issue. He always was supportive of me being able to do what I wanted to do, be what I wanted to be. And he did give me this empowered feeling that I could be what I wanted to be. And I studied graphic design in school. So I was on track to be this graphic designer, which is like a money-making artist career.
00:08:47
Speaker
And so he loved that. But over the years, obviously I've evolved out of design and into doing like street spray paint murals and all that kind of stuff. And I know that he thinks it's so cool. So yeah, that kind of those two sides kind of created a nice structure for me, where I had a little bit of the, you know, the nuts and bolts, like you said, and the creativity, and now I'm able to use both together to run this creative business that I'm running.
00:09:14
Speaker
And maybe take us to that moment when maybe you had to have a tough conversation with your dad when you were thinking of dropping out of real estate school, that something that is classically stable to pursue something that is on its surface, uh, much more, um, much softer footing, uh, and certainly less, um, maybe certain if that's, if that makes any sense. It does. I mean, although I can't actually recall that conversation.
00:09:44
Speaker
Which makes me think that it must have been a non-issue. I think if there were friction because of it, I probably would remember. And since it was while I was in college, I'm going to invent this memory here. What I think happened was I fizzled because I wasn't interested. And instead, I was probably occupying myself with my school, university-related
00:10:10
Speaker
projects, which were art projects, but they were they were on this other track, which also had some stability in its future. So I imagine that he was probably like, well, he's he's not into real estate, but he still is like headed on a pathway that that works. Nice, nice. And so with seven, seven of you growing up, where did you fall fall in the continuum of the of the kids? So I'm number two.
00:10:38
Speaker
And we're all pretty close together. So, um, basically like two years apart, three at most. So it's, you know, it's a tight group and we're still pretty close. I mean, everyone's grown up in all over the country and everything. Um, but we, you know, all the relationships are great. Are there any other artists among, uh, among your siblings? Yeah, actually my, both of my brothers are extremely artistic and creative, although neither of them have really pursued
00:11:07
Speaker
pursuit art professionally. And I will say this too, I'm a little bit bummed that they haven't because I see their sketchbooks and their personal work and all I can think of is like, you would be such a smash hit if you would take this somewhere a little bit further, but they've got other things going on.
00:11:28
Speaker
Nice. And so as you're developing, you know, your skill and, you know, in graphic design and you're getting, you know, that under your belt, you know, what are you also doing, you know, creatively to, you know, scratch a certain itch that might be something, a seed essential that you planted that is now really, really bearing fruit? As a graphic designer, I was working in-house for this company called Mac Cosmetics and
00:11:57
Speaker
Mac is a makeup company that's very colorful. And so I was doing graphics and like design kind of work, art direction. I thought it was really cool at the
Career Transition and Creative Ownership
00:12:06
Speaker
time. So I actually felt really fulfilled in that, in that job. But over the course of the years, I think I started to feel like I wasn't putting my name on anything. I didn't feel ownership over the work that I was doing because I, here I was like busting my ass to, you know, for the betterment of this brand.
00:12:23
Speaker
not my brand, and that started to become a little bit of a problem. But at the time, I wasn't really doing anything about it. I wasn't really like, you think you'll go home at night and work on your personal projects, but when you have a day job, that's actually really hard to do. You get home at night and you're exhausted, or you want to go out and have a beer with your friends or whatever it is, and so you don't really pursue these things, or I should say, I wasn't pursuing these scratching that itch, so to speak.
00:12:53
Speaker
Long story short, to answer your question, ultimately that drove me to quit my job so that I could start to scratch that itch and so that I could start to put my name on my work. And it wasn't really until I had kind of found the rhythm of not having a job was I able to really start doing my own work and understanding what kind of work I wanted to do.
00:13:13
Speaker
And did you draw yourself up kind of a playbook of sorts of how to go about leaving the steadiness of your day job to step into something that was definitely more fulfilling for you where you could put your Jason Naylor stamp on it, kind of keep the lights on overhead while you're trying to build that personal brand? Yeah, the game plan was I would
00:13:38
Speaker
try to do the creative projects that I wanted to do, which at the time were more about illustration, I wanted to be doing illustrations. And I would supplement the income doing freelance design work. And thankfully, there's tons of freelance work to be done. It's New York, you know, everyone needs help here and there on something. And so I ended up being able to supplement my income that way. But it kind of became all consuming. In a way, it was like,
00:14:03
Speaker
I quit my full-time job to then just start doing the exact same thing, but for tons of different people and clients, but it still occupied my whole day every day. And so in a way, it wasn't the change that I thought I was going to have. It wasn't the amount of time that I thought that I would have to be working on my own projects, and it was still just like the same old thing in a way.
00:14:29
Speaker
That actually took a couple of years. It took me a couple of years to evolve to a place where I was able to start turning down these freelance design gigs and stop seeking them, start turning them down and start actually getting paid for the creative projects that I wanted to do. And a lot of that was murals. I found kind of a niche in painting murals where I realized I could make decent money painting murals and that could supplement my other projects rather than doing the freelance design work.
00:14:57
Speaker
That's great to hear you just talk about the length of time that it did take a few years. I think that puts a lot of people's mind at ease. When we see your book or that mural, it's like, oh, it just feels like Jason arrived and boom, that was it. But it's great to hear that the process and the hustle and not the hustle porn of it all, but the fact that there was a lot of years for you to get that kind of momentum.
00:15:26
Speaker
And you know, and now here you are like an overnight success after several years. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's actually 10 years. I quit my full-time job 10 years ago. So it's, it is a lot of time and it's funny that you bring that up because you know, you, you see people on Instagram or whatever and it always seems like whatever they're doing seems so immediate. Like yesterday they didn't have whatever campaign or whatever new sculpture. And all of a sudden they're just like exploding. Like it looks like everyone is in that state.
00:15:54
Speaker
So I totally feel you. Absolutely. And so how do you, so you know, you, your taste is driving you more towards murals and everything. So what was, uh, you know, what was a first, you know, maybe your first victory that really, you know, that you could put your stamp on that put that fuel in your tank. So you could, you know, snowball the fact that, uh, you know, this, this, uh, this taste of, that you have of, uh, of painting murals.
00:16:21
Speaker
Well, the one very pivotal mural was a couple of years ago, it was the award for a contest that I entered. It was a mural design contest.
Breakthrough Moment and Artistic Recognition
00:16:33
Speaker
And it was a real estate company. They had a bunch of empty properties and they had a vacant wall on, you know, it was a very public facing wall on the street. And so they wanted to put up a mural. They ran this contest and I won the contest and that
00:16:50
Speaker
So the prize for the contest was the opportunity to paint my design onto that wall. And they did pay me as well, which is nice for those who are listening who are like, don't work for free. So I did get paid. But the opportunity was massive because this is a very public facing street in Manhattan. For those of you who live in New York, it's 16th and 6th Avenue, which is in Chelsea. It's a great spot. So that was a big break for me because
00:17:20
Speaker
I had done a lot of mural work in Brooklyn and indoors. People always want something related to their brand in their conference room or the lobby of a little hotel, things like that I had been able to do a lot of, but I didn't have any public facing work like that. So when I got that mural, once it was done, in a way that was kind of the overnight, that moment that we were just talking about, that kind of happened with that mural. And the reason is primarily because
00:17:50
Speaker
It's on a very busy street and it was just the sheer number of human beings that walk by that wall every single day. And so I started getting inquiries, you know, people walk by and they see the work and they're like, oh, we've got a, you know, we've got a building or whatever. And one thing led to the next, but it all sort of started for me with that particular mural. And ironically, that mural, the message that I put in that mural is live life colorfully, which is the title of my book. So full circle.
00:18:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's incredible. And what was the, and you kind of alluded to this in the introduction of your book, is that your palette as an artist, of course, is very vibrant colors, but I think there might have been somewhat of a hesitation to be that bold in your application to try to win this contest. So what was the calculus you're undergoing? And finally, just relenting to what is ultimately your taste?
00:18:45
Speaker
Well, I mean, that's a great observation. Like I mentioned in the intro to the book, when I was strategizing how to win that contest, and this is the designer in me, of course, instead of thinking like, what do I want to paint? I'm thinking, how am I going to win this? What do they want to see? So that's kind of where my head was. And the work I was doing before that was colorful. And it was very message driven. It was all about positivity. The themes were there.
00:19:14
Speaker
But my palate wasn't necessarily so fluorescent and so bright. And I think the best way to say it is I was not nearly as confident with color at that time. So the decision to use that much color was kind of driven by the message itself. I liked that quote. I had stumbled upon this quote. It says, when you live life colorfully, people talk about you. And that resonated so much with me because it was so curious. I was like, what does that even mean? And I loved that I didn't know what it meant.
00:19:44
Speaker
that it could go both ways. Like, do you like people talking about you? Do you not like, you know, it's very individual and personal. So when I decided to use that, that bit of the quote for my piece, I felt like the only way to design it was with a full like massive amount of color. And the mural came out very like bright, bold, proud, like technicolor, you know, and so when
00:20:10
Speaker
When that started to pick up, I realized how much people responded to that. I realized that it was resonating with everyone who walked by it. There were so many people taking pictures and posting and tagging. And I kind of saw it as an opportunity. Like, I've got to integrate this. Whatever's working here, I've got to do that more. So that kind of started off this massive explosion of color that I started to integrate into my work. But it wasn't out of the blue. I had built up to it.
00:20:38
Speaker
I think enough that I was able to develop the confidence from there to keep using that much color. A negative world that we tend to be living in. How important is it for you to be able to express yourself with the art that you bring to the world with such generosity and to use it in such a vibrant way to put that colorful life in front of us and imbue us with
00:21:06
Speaker
certain measure of positivity I mean, it's kind of become a bit of a role that I've like I've assigned to myself and I it's something that I love like like I said, you know, I'm I'm the oldest brother I'm number two of seven so I kind of have a big brother Personality and you know now that big brother might not be the best way to phrase it, but you know So I guess what I should say is I have a bit of a caretaker kind of personality, you know and
00:21:35
Speaker
I think that plays a role in the messaging and the art that I want to put out there because I do feel this, you know, this driving force that in my work where I feel like I want to share things with the world and I want to remind people, you know, people that I know, people that I love, and people that I don't know, I want to remind them that like, we're in this together, we will be okay, like, yeah, it's the world is crazy right now, and it probably will be
00:21:57
Speaker
always you know tomorrow will be something new and and to me that's fine because we have each other we we are able to be optimistic you know and these kinds of feelings and this type of messaging i think it makes me feel good to share that kind of stuff so in a way it's kind of just become my my mo
00:22:16
Speaker
whether you're a writer or a visual artist like yourself, there is always this conundrum, not conundrum, but as you're developing as an artist of trying to find your voice. And so what was the challenge, or not the challenge, or maybe just the journey of you finding your voice and settling into your particular groove?
00:22:41
Speaker
talk about that. I think that's a common thread with probably with everyone, but with artists. Obviously, that's my realm. It's sort of like, how do you find your style? How do you find your voice? And the truth is, I think that you don't find it until you stop trying to find it. You just make work. If you're a writer, you just keep writing. If you draw, then you just keep drawing. And the more you do it, you start to see patterns. You start to see a rhythm in what you're doing. And then one day you look back and you realize, oh, I actually
00:23:11
Speaker
I can see that I have a voice, you know, and that's kind of how it was for me. I didn't, I remember thinking to myself, like, maybe if I do, maybe if I apply this formula, like, oh, there's this artist that I love and they do all black and white with like one color. So if I do that, then maybe I can, you know, I can get, make a name for myself or whatever. Like I had those kinds of thoughts. And then at one point, not sure when this happened. I can only say it now in retrospect.
00:23:35
Speaker
At some point I gave up on trying to put that into a formula and I just started painting and making work. And now looking back, I realized I love doing colorful stuff. I love positive messaging and that's just what I do. And now I know that's my voice, but I don't know exactly how I got here. I do know that it's been a lot of hours of work.
00:23:54
Speaker
the the colorful nature of what you do is just so it's it's like that that person you walked into a room and you see them and they're just like like I like hanging out with that guy I like hanging out with her like she's just they're just cool and when I leave that conversation I'm just like
00:24:10
Speaker
Oh, man, I want to I want to do that. I want to be better. And is that is that kind of a core ethos of your work that you know, when people see your work or even hang out with you, that you want them to take that energy and parlay it into something good for themselves. Totally. And that's so beautifully put. I mean, I love that analogy. And and I think that brings up the point of authenticity. You know, like I hope that when people meet me, if they know my work, I hope that when they meet me, they
00:24:37
Speaker
feel like it's one in the same. I want to behave and comport myself in a way that matches what I'm saying. The messages that I'm putting on the street have got to match what's actually in my heart and match the way I live my life. And it doesn't have to be that deliberate. I mean, it actually is who I am. I'm a pretty happy-go-lucky guy. So it does fit. But I love the way you put that. I hope that people feel that way.
00:25:03
Speaker
And I was reading a cool little illustration slash comic from the designer, Elisa Congdon on Instagram. And she wrote just this little thing and it just said community over competition. And I think that's really important. I talked to a lot of people on the show about the toxic nature of like jealousy and envy and
00:25:25
Speaker
competition among peers and how that's a fuel that doesn't really burn clean, that it's really, it is better to build community. And I was wondering, like, maybe if you can speak to that in your world, how important it is to build community and to try to foster that instead of, you know, feeling jealous or envious of each other.
00:25:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I love that. First of all, I love that you brought up Lisa. She's one of my heroes and I met her once. We have a great Instagram relationship, but I met her once when she was speaking and she's so lovely. So yeah, her work is fantastic. But yeah, I mean, I have an abundance mindset and I think that it's a crucial way to be, you know, if you want to
00:26:05
Speaker
I mean, for anyone, you know, if you want to have success, and if you want to feel content and happy with the work that you're doing, you have to have that mindset, you know, it's toxic competition is, you know, healthy competition, I guess people can speak to that. But for me, I think it's, it's pretty toxic. If if you find yourself comparing, competing, you know, you'll never add up if you sit around and compare yourself to the limited amount of information you have about other other artists, other people and
Building Community in the Art World
00:26:33
Speaker
especially like with Instagram, you know, you look at a look at someone else's Instagram, and everyone else has way more clients, way more money, way more time, like everything's way better. And that's not at all the truth. So it's it this is easy to say to, you know, I can sit here and say like, Oh, that's toxic. Just don't do it. Like have an abundance mindset. It's hard to actually practice that way every single day, you know, to live your life that way. But I do try. I do try to do that. And the best way for me, I think,
00:27:02
Speaker
to maintain that attitude is to share with other people, share opportunities, share walls, share projects, and share information with other people.
00:27:13
Speaker
And as you were synthesizing the book, what was the challenge for you, who someone who is primarily a visual artist working in paint and spray paints and whatever, what was the challenge for you to then write a book, put down text, colorful text, and also some cool research behind what color can do to your brain in terms of memory and remembering things? Well, the writing was actually kind of hard for me.
00:27:41
Speaker
The idea for the book had been kind of buttoned up between my agent, myself, and then once I got the book deal with the editor. And what that means is the book is 99 ideas to add joy, positivity, and creativity to your life. So these 99 ideas actually started out as a list of like 300 ideas. And I had whittled it down. Yeah, totally. Just a brain dump.
00:28:06
Speaker
And actually, I had enlisted the help of my mom, she helped me brainstorm some of those ideas. So some of the list of those original ideas came from her and a couple of them are in the book, which is amazing. So when she got the book, she was, of course, so thrilled. But anyway, the list had been narrowed down to the 99 ideas. And once that was in place, then I
00:28:30
Speaker
started to do all the illustrations. So I had all this art. I had this list of ideas. They're like trivia. Some are like challenges. I had this list. I had all the art that went with it. And then I had to sit down and write. And up till that point, it came really easy for me. It was what I was used to doing, coming up with ideas, coming up with compositions, designs, and even doing lettering that goes with the art or the design. To me, that's
00:28:55
Speaker
That's part of the story, but to me, that's the art. So once that was all done, I had to sit down and write it. And I think I'm pretty decent at writing captions for my Instagram posts, but I don't think I'm a writer. And I'm still coming to terms with calling myself an author. But I did somehow, page after page, write all of this. And my editor was great. She helped me to maintain my voice. And obviously, for people who are writers, that's a big thing.
00:29:24
Speaker
My visual voice is very clear. My writing voice needed some work. So that process was a little bit of a challenge for me. Yeah, I would say the written voice and your textual delivery of your messages was very congruent with the visuals. And so the guitar was in tune, if that makes any sense to you. I mean, that's a great compliment. Thank you.
00:29:49
Speaker
And I'm big on, you know, um, sort of the routines and discipline and the practice that goes behind doing creative work. Um, so when you were just, let's just use the book as an example, when you were in the generative phase of it, you know, how are you setting up your days? So you were, you know, just clipping along, you know, in the grind and, uh, you know, meeting, you know, deadlines, whether they be external, the ones you set for yourself.
00:30:20
Speaker
Um, that's a great question. I do have, I do have a pretty, um, like structured day, life week, you know, whatever you want to call it. Um, but I, you know, I wake up at the same time, I do my exercise. Um, I, I often have a bunch of emails to deal with. And, uh, and then I usually end up doing the more creative stuff like later in the afternoon and into the evenings. And the way it was with the book.
00:30:44
Speaker
I often set aside Sundays as days to just sit on the couch, I put on bad TV and I'll have my iPad in my hands and I'll just do like sketching, you know, basically it's like kind of creative planning. I'm sketching out things that are going to be coming up and I'm just trying to not think about things and just sketch. So a lot of the book happened on Sundays and I was able to kind of block out like for the next, you know, eight Sundays or whatever it was, I'm working on the book. And I would get into a rhythm where I would,
00:31:14
Speaker
it's like you kind of get into a rabbit hole with your own stuff and you're lost or you're deep in this hole and you're just working and writing and drawing and doing the creative thing. And those Sundays turned out to be the kind of like sacred day for me to be working on my book. And that's kind of how I got through it. So most of the work, especially the visual work happened in that kind of rabbit hole mindset that I got into each Sunday for the course of a couple of months. And then when it got to the writing portion,
00:31:43
Speaker
I felt a little bit of the pressure of the deadline. So that was more of a like daily, I was trying to work it into my daily tasks. And I would just do it one page at a time. Like I've got to figure out how to write today. I'm gonna write this one page. And if you look at the book, of course, like we're talking about a couple of sentences. So it really doesn't seem like a lot of writing, but to actually condense my idea down to the couple of sentences took a little bit more work than one might think, you know.
00:32:10
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, in looking at one of the pages, I put a bunch of sticky notes when I read books. And one particular one that stood out to me was color coding your calendar. And that's one I can see that one almost taking like a week to do because you have like a little thing for each day and it's very, very detailed. So I suspect some of these might take you an afternoon, but maybe one like that one probably could take you an entire day or maybe a few days or a week.
00:32:41
Speaker
Yeah, totally and it's that's funny. The calendar was actually that's one of the ones that was quite laborious and I just turned to that page as well Oddly, maybe not surprisingly Many of the things that are on that calendar were actually on my calendar at the time For example, like I did need to talk to the IRS at the time and it's on that calendar, you know So I put like mail the checks talk to the IRS and then and then I put stop worrying because at the time I was like I'm worrying about the IRS and you know my taxes and all that stuff
00:33:09
Speaker
And that was real life, that's what was happening. So I included it in the drawing.
00:33:15
Speaker
I love that because I have three big dry erase calendars on my wall. And I color code it just based on certain tasks. That way I can just look at it and be like, oh, I see a bunch of green. And that means podcast interviews. So I can just see at a glance. I'm like, OK, those days look pretty booked. And in terms of color, it's just like you don't have to necessarily read it, but you see the color and you're like, oh, OK, deadlines there.
00:33:42
Speaker
Appointments there. It's just it's so helpful and it's just the way you illustrated too. It's just really like a really fun a fun take on that. Yeah, thanks. I mean, you know, it's interesting like to note the power of color in that application.
00:33:56
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. Because it is something like, okay, you don't necessarily need to get into the granularity of it. But you can take this big helicopter view of your calendar, your three month outlook, and just be like, okay, I can see where things are starting to fill up. And it's like, okay, that's great. I can see that week is going to be a bear in terms of logistics. But you know, that one looks pretty, that one looks pretty good. That one's just this, that and the other. But it's like, and then you zoom in and be like, okay, that's what I'm really dealing with on like a
00:34:24
Speaker
you know, on the, on the playing field, so to speak. But yeah, being able to see that color right off the bat, it just defines things in an instant, which it can alleviate a lot of stress. I know it does for me. Yeah, it totally does. And it, it's the thing is, it's one of those little things that most people totally understand it. Most people actually do it. They just don't, they don't realize that they're doing it or why they're doing it. And they may not have thought, have sat down to think like, wow, this, this color coding, my calendar is actually a quite,
00:34:52
Speaker
powerful and effective way to do things. Some people are just doing it because it looks nicer, because they've always done it or whatever. But the point of that page is to remind people, this is real. This is real stuff we're talking about.
00:35:05
Speaker
I love later in the book, too, you have this great little illustration about a permission slip. And so many people who want to get into something creative, they often feel like they need permission from some external force. And they don't realize that sometimes it really just comes from within, and you just have to have the courage to take the leap yourself.
00:35:26
Speaker
So what was the ethos behind making sure you include something of that nature that really empowers the reader and the artist to be? Yeah, I mean, I've always been kind of fascinated with that whole concept of the permission and the idea of should and could. And it's kind of a self-help topic. But I think there's something interesting about this idea that this
00:35:56
Speaker
this little slip, this little piece of paper or this little thing that you have that you write, you are entitled to do this or you have permission to do this. And this simple little act or this simple little piece of paper now gives you license to do something that you wanted to do. In a way, there's two sides of this. In a way, it's really powerful that this little act or this little piece of paper can do that for you. And then on the other hand, it's kind of bullshit that we, as people, feel like we need this
00:36:26
Speaker
little thing, this little piece of paper to actually begin something that is what's in our heart or that's our passion or that's our dream. I wanted to point out both sides of that without actually spelling it out. There's the one permission slip that says you don't need permission for anything, so this is your permission to not need permission. The point of that one is to look at the other side of it, which is like, why do you need permission? If this is your dream, just go get it, go chase it. Start right now.
00:36:56
Speaker
No one's stopping you but you. So get on it. And that's sort of the point. And then the other permission slip that's in there is the coupon is about like, well, you're entitled. This is what you want. You're entitled to it. So take it. And both of them are meant to be very motivating, obviously.
00:37:11
Speaker
Yeah, and I think a lot of people too, maybe they go to an MFA program or grad school for pursuing a thing, whether it's to be a writer or an artist. And really what they do want, they want some sort of a diploma that says, yes, I'm a writer or I'm a painter. But all you need are some supplies and the willingness to be bad at this for a long time. And then you will get good, right? You'll get good if you just keep doing it.
00:37:41
Speaker
Yeah, you will figure it out. I mean, and it's, it's, you know, everyone has imposter syndrome, everyone has those feelings, and it doesn't go away. That's the thing. And I like to remind people of that because I feel that way still to this day, and I'm sure I will until the day I die. And it's not, you'll never, I don't believe that people will necessarily get over feeling that they'll just learn how to manage it and use it. You know, I've found myself feeling that way.
00:38:06
Speaker
in a fresh new version of that recently because of the book. I feel really confident that I'm an artist. I know how to use color. I feel like I'm a master of color and all these things. But now, I put it on my bio the other day on my Instagram account. I added author. And I caught myself. As I was doing it, I'm like, am I an author? Do I get to put this? I had those thoughts that came into my mind. I'm holding a book in my hand. I am an author. But I'm still dealing with those feelings.
00:38:36
Speaker
So it just goes to show you that it's very real and it's also totally unnecessary and you can move through it and do the work.
00:38:44
Speaker
Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from. I'm not classically trained in radio or audio production or anything, but I've just been doing this on my own and learning skills like this for many years now. If I type in a Twitter bio or Instagram that I'm also a producer of podcasts, that feels weird to me. I'm more of a writer, saying a writer. I'm like, oh yeah, I can do that.
00:39:11
Speaker
Typing like yeah producer I'm like whoa wait wait no I'm not I just this is a thing I picked up on the side and I but I've been doing it and I can make them for other people and it's just a thing I developed because I wanted to try it and It's but it's weird. I totally get it. It doesn't feel right Nate calling yourself the thing even though you're been doing it for a while it goes to show you also that if you do do the work and
00:39:38
Speaker
then you will cross over. You will get through that feeling, that imposter syndrome. And it's a matter of time, and it's a matter of labor, and it's maybe the 10,000 hour. Maybe in two years, I'll speak to you again, and I'll be like, hey, you know what? I am totally an author, and I've got another book on the way. But today, I don't necessarily feel that. So you've got to do your part, but it's possible to get past it.
00:40:03
Speaker
Yeah, so how do you process that and how are you starting to get comfortable with the fact of calling yourself a writer and an author beside the other designations that you've had that you have right now? How have you been processing that? Well, I think the biggest thing that has helped me is doing the podcast. And I've been doing them because of launching the book. I've been doing many of them, which has been amazing, first of all, because it's gotten me talking about the book.
00:40:34
Speaker
I remember fairly recently somebody saying, tell me about the book, give me your elevator pitch. And I kind of stumbled because I didn't, even though I had created the book, I didn't really know how to condense it into this elevator pitch, you know, which is kind of silly. But the point is, like, I have had these opportunities to talk about the book, to talk about my writing, you know, to break down my process and each, which has been really cool because also each,
Challenges and Identity as an Author
00:41:00
Speaker
podcast host has different questions about the book and it's pushed me out of my comfort zone in a lot of great ways. And I think that has been massive in helping me to see that this is a thing that I wrote. I am the creator of this thing and I'm entitled to feel proud of being the writer and being the author. So I'm getting there.
00:41:20
Speaker
It in over the course of of writing the book and putting this thing together in over the course of your research to you know, what surprised you most about About color and what it can do to our brains and in our mood I think the most surprising thing that I learned is that there's not a lot of consistent information and or research or data, you know about the psychology of color the meaning of color
00:41:51
Speaker
And that's not to say that there isn't a lot. There's tons. But it doesn't all align. And so I think my biggest finding is that the emotional meaning of color, the psychological meaning of color, the application of color, even from a neurological standpoint, there's all these sort of scientific work done about color. All of it is reliant upon
00:42:18
Speaker
culture, time in history, you know, geographic location, like there's so many variables in it. And so the big answer to the question is, it's kind of up to you. And that's what I kind of took away from the from creating this book is that color is a very personal thing. It's a very powerful thing. And it's something that you are able, you know, every single person on this earth is able to pick up, use how they want to understand it how they want to and make
00:42:45
Speaker
make it what it is for them in a very personal way. And that's what's so special about it. And given that we've been living through this pandemic for nearly a year now, how important would you say color is in a time where people are struggling so much? So how important or what value would you put color in a time that's so bleak for so many?
00:43:14
Speaker
I mean, it's way up there. It's way up there on the priorities. I think that being cooped up in your house, looking at Zoom all day, or whatever people do, is the exact reason why we need color. And the human psyche needs variety. You need to see the world around you. Nature is a very colorful and diverse place. And the human being, in order to be OK, to be sane,
00:43:43
Speaker
needs to have this variety and this diversity in stimulation, interaction, and color is the simplest way to provide diversity and variety in the stimulation. And so I think it can come in the form of a book. It can come in the form of going outside and taking a walk, which is one of the pages of my book, just like get off the chair and go out and walk because
00:44:08
Speaker
that will do so much for your wellbeing and you don't even realize it until you've done it. And part of that is that you are seeing something different than your screen or the walls in your bedroom or whatever it is, you're providing variety.
00:44:22
Speaker
how you're stimulating yourself and your brain. It's crucial. As we bring this airliner down for a landing, you would emit through your work a lot of optimism and positivity.
Optimism and Future Artistic Evolution
00:44:37
Speaker
Like we were saying earlier, it's stuff you want to be around that energizes you.
00:44:41
Speaker
So, as you go forward with this book and as you keep evolving and developing as an artist, where do you see your taste taking you? And also, where does your optimism lie as we go forward? Well, I think that the work can evolve visually. I don't see myself doing a strictly black and white series of work in the near future or anything.
00:45:09
Speaker
Visually, the work can evolve. I think the universal theme that's in my work I think is pretty timeless, and that is the kindness and the positivity. I think those things are not going away. I think they will become more and more important to me and to the world as time goes on. So I feel this sense of security about it. I feel like I've embraced these themes in my work that are
00:45:36
Speaker
going to carry me forward. Visually, I'm not sure where it'll go, but thematically, it's going to stay the same. Did that answer the question, though, actually, that I'm thinking about it?
00:45:48
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. In terms of where your work is going. Sometimes in these fields, it can be sometimes hard to keep that positive energy going because there is a grind aspect to doing creative work. So sometimes having that thing that puts fuel in your tank,
00:46:12
Speaker
you know, in your back pocket can really help you through some bleak times and certainly when the work feels laborious. Yes, totally. And I think that's that's the beauty of having having this kind of a message driven kind of theme focused practice. For me, it's, you know, the labor of the work will change and it'll come and go. And and to be honest with you, there are times when I'm in the sun like painting a mural and I'm tired and like it isn't the most joyful
00:46:42
Speaker
moment of life, but the bigger picture is that the point of the work is to spread the message, and the message matters, and so that always is enough to keep going.
00:46:54
Speaker
Nice. Well, Jason, this was so great to get to talk to you and unpack, you know, how you go about the work and your wonderful book that is just instantly fun. The minute you open up, it's just like bursting and overflowing with, you know, just wonderful stuff. So it's just incredibly fun to fill up your cup. So thank you for the work and thanks for coming on the show. Oh, man, it was my great pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
00:47:25
Speaker
as we are wont to say on this podcast that was a toe tapping good time had a good time there like that Jason's books a lot of fun I had a lot of fun reading it can read it super fast I think I like totally read it in maybe 45 minutes and but it's one of those things where I put a bunch of sticky notes in it like I'm gonna go back to that that's cool stuff right there
00:47:45
Speaker
something about color that's a whole lot of fun you know need that pop on your shelf and you need a pop in your wardrobe too just kind of makes you feel alive so thanks Jason thank you CNFers you know I mean it
00:47:58
Speaker
While I might still have your attention, if you leave a kind review on Apple Podcast, take a screenshot of that when it publishes. Send it to me. Either the creative non-fiction email, the Brendan O'Mara email. Whatever one. Your choice. Dealer's choice. And I'll coach up a piece up. I'll coach up a piece up.
00:48:17
Speaker
Ah, God. I will coach up a piece of your work of up to 2,000 words. Give you a nice experience, one hopes. So, once the review publishes, we'll get started. Sound like a plan? Let's do it. Why not?
00:48:33
Speaker
So my war against social media, it's like the, I feel like the father in a Christmas story and his rivalry with the bumpuses dogs just screaming, you know, as they, as they eat the Turkey and anything. And so, uh, so I have a similar rivalry as a lot of, you know, uh, so I took it, I took it even a stepfather. So some of you might know, I deleted Facebook. I don't entirely regret that just a little, and that's fine.
00:49:02
Speaker
There were some groups that were like CNF related that I think benefited the show somewhat and it was nice to contribute to those communities. But I don't think the trade-off was ultimately worth it to stay on the platforms and I know the people in those groups so if I really wanted to like still get in there I can say like hey listen if you want to share this with that with that group I think it'll be worth it but I'm not there anymore just don't want to just want to scrub that from my life.
00:49:27
Speaker
I've been keeping Twitter to a minimum, mainly scheduling tweets ahead of time via Hootsuite. I don't see any weirdness through Hootsuite, so I can book my tweets and kind of move on. I check Twitter sort of like email, you know, did someone say hi or link up to the show? If so, I want to give a little, you know, a little love for that.
00:49:45
Speaker
I don't always see it. I guess my notifications are kind of wonky, so sometimes I scroll along and look at a tweet I had put up and say, oh wow, someone liked it or quote tweeted it, and I want to give some recognition for that. It's always nice. I'm at a point with the show's audience where it's not a gigantic distraction to do that. It's not like I'm overwhelmed there, so I do have the time and the bandwidth to give digital fist bumps in a skull. You know how that is.
00:50:14
Speaker
Instagram only works on mobile, so I've got that still on my phone, but an extreme effort to curtail distraction. I deleted my email accounts that matter on my phone. I need to keep one there. It's like a placeholder, so to speak, but I deleted my real email accounts from the phone. I always, I would always, always, oh my God, always.
00:50:37
Speaker
and check it in every down moment when I was just kind of between tasks and just, and it was just getting out of hand. So I got rid of it. Turned my phone into the 2007 iteration of Steve Jobs's iPhone, which is to say, it's like an iPod used as a phone. So that's what I did. So I've got my Spotify, I've got my podcast app. I like to listen with pocket casts, texting phone, Headspace meditation app, and my camera.
00:51:05
Speaker
And that is it for the phone. And today's the day I deleted it and even made it like an anniversary thing kind of in my bullet journal. Like, delete an email from my phone. And I would feel myself reaching for it. Just that impulse, that habit, that addiction to refresh. Like, oh, did someone send anything in it? So I need to then check in with the computer.
00:51:28
Speaker
to check email and that's where I have Twitter. That's where I access Twitter too is through the computer. I don't have it on my phone. So, I've reintroduced the casual email into my life as a way to say hi to friends. I even wrote a zine for a friend too because, I don't know, I love zines. So taking all that junk off my phones means I have to focus on what matters and not get distracted by nonsense.
00:51:55
Speaker
I say all this because I suspect that maybe some of you wrestle with it and I can say this, just try something out. Try Twitter free Tuesdays or no Instagram Mondays or social free social media free Saturdays. Any alliteration you can come up with. It definitely helps.
00:52:13
Speaker
I know the days that I don't engage at all, I feel that little pang of FOMO. But by and large, I feel better, more energized, more useful, and more engaged with the work that matters and not pulled into the vortex of toxic comparison and bullshit. Experiment for yourself.
00:52:33
Speaker
Let me know what you're up to. It'd be good to know. In the meantime, keep the conversation going on social media at CNFpod and Twitter and Instagram for inspiring tidbits. Anyway, Patreon is where it's at if you have a few bucks to throw into the podcast coffers. Money gets funneled right into the production of the show and the audio magazine. Like I say, it's free but it's not cheap.
00:52:59
Speaker
You get access to forthcoming magazines transcripts and coaching shop around there's Golden and Bar Hills And get on that newsletter mailing list just had a great exclusive CNF and happy hour the other day with a few newsletter pals So big ups to Suzanne Betsy Laurie and Andrew might have a guest back for next one You'll just have to subscribe to find out Brendan of hair.com. Hey So until then stay cool CNFers stay cool forever. See ya
00:54:07
Speaker
you