Transcript
Speaker: All right, well, welcome in the entering pilot. Dustin, you doing okay today? Doing all right. How about yourself? I'm doing great. I don't know that our names matter, but Dustin Meadows. That's me. Yeah, I'm Paul Dean. That's him. yeah And Randall House Church, we'll just put that out there.
Speaker: So anyway, today... We're going to be talking about going to wade into. I guess ah different views of... well that's not really the point but civil government and kind of okay how we see certain things uh What should we think about it?
Speaker: And listen, this could go in. a thousand different directions so we're taking a particular trajectory today because Just been thinking, we've been talking about. you know different discussions that are going on. The Christian nationalism discussion is still going on.
Speaker: We've just, uh... We've got the book that's come out, Five Views of Christian Nationalism. I think Al Mohler, Joe Rigney, Doug Wilson. Steve Miller.
Speaker: ah reno I think he's Catholic, if I'm not mistaken. Can't remember the first name. I know all of them it's except for him. um I probably should know him. doesn't Don't mean to put my ignorance on display, but nevertheless. And then... So that's out.
Speaker: And, of course. I don't think any of them holds to. There's a couple of other brands of Christian nationalism out there we won't get into, but... The point being, this this discussion is... It's not going away.
Speaker: um it's It's not in the fringe. It's in the mainstream. And so, you know, that's one of the issues on the table. And we'll we'll get to that. Not today. But we're going to get to that because we want to lay a foundation.
Speaker: I think. There's another discussion going. I don't know how widespread this one is, but. You know, we saw some brothers doing. um a podcast on imprecatory prayer.
Speaker: And how should we think about that as new covenant believers? I thought it was a very interesting discussion. Don't agree with. Their position? But I want to interact with that at some point down the road. uh theologically biblically don't want to just Just say, well, we disagree, and and we're right, and you're wrong. that Suits.
Speaker: Love to interact with those guys. And it's not about calling out names. It's just it's just about. talking about these things. one One of the things that's going to... come out in our discussion today.
Speaker: Because we're Baptists, by the way. the And we're unapologetically Baptist. And we're not dispensational, though. A lot of Baptists today are dispensational. We're not that.
Speaker: That came around 1830, something like that. We could talk about that at some point. And I'm not criticizing our dispensational brothers in Christ. which is is just not where we're at john macarthur was kind of a I think he referred to himself as a leaky dispensationalist. He he held to...
Speaker: the dispensational eschatology, but his soteriology was... It was Calvinistic. It was reform. And so we're part of that broader reform community. um And so we're not dispensationalists soteriologically nor eschatologically.
Speaker: I'm not just trying to throw out big words here. Our In Time View. that's oversimplifying eschatology is much broader than in times but nevertheless and soteriology That refers to salvation. So again, we're not I'm not trying to...
Speaker: Throw out big words. Anyway, so we're part of that broader reform community. But we're not exactly. you know, where the the strict... covenant theology.
Speaker: you know Presbyterians, Westminster, the Westminster Confession of Faith, 1646. Covenant theology, we're not strictly there. You've got a lot of... Baptist. ah who are historically And we're using Reformed.
Speaker: You know, Baptists is always like to say we never were part of the Roman Catholic Church. so Technically, we're not Protestant or Reform, but nevertheless, we're using that to show our...
Speaker: camaraderie and theological you know agreement. With, uh... Presbyterians and in a lot of ways. and and the larger reform community.
Speaker: I'm rambling. Please forgive me. But the the point I'm trying to make is if you go back Baptist historically. were reformed. I mean... Honestly, now you've you've always had.
Speaker: different streams within the Baptist community, no doubt about that. but So we come from a historical Baptist perspective. I love the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith. That's where I was going.
Speaker: And. I don't agree with with everything because it's underlying. The 1689. you've You've brought in... in large measure, that Westminster covenant theology. Now it's a little different.
Speaker: ah We don't have time to get, well, I guess we could. But anyway, one of the big differences. Westminster, you've got... ah you know, the covenant of works in the garden. And. Covenant of Grace begins with Genesis 315.
Speaker: And so everything forced. So they've got this overarching covenant of grace. salvation is by grace we all agree with that well some Some people believe... other things you know you're saved by works and and maybe the old covenant saints were saved by the law some believe that most of us don't even dispense most dispensations today don't believe that But anyway.
Speaker: Um, All I meant by that is the covenant of grace overarching and in all the covenants you see in the scriptures. are different administrations of the one covenant of grace. Well, the 1689 Baptists, they would say, okay, yes, we buy into a covenant of grace.
Speaker: Get the covenant of works in the garden. But that extends all the way to the new covenant. And it's the new covenant that's the covenant of grace. You know, I can. Buy into that. i don't I don't particularly use that terminology. but Right.
Speaker: and And I don't particularly buy into that framework either, but nevertheless. That's the 1689, so... I like it, but we we go back to the first. ah baptist london can first london confession of faith baptist what it call First Baptist London Confession Faith, then revised 1646.
Speaker: They didn't bring in. you know, the the influence of Westminster. By the time you get to 1689, the Baptists and the... Presbyterians, you know they're They're separatists. they're They're trying to break free from the state church there.
Speaker: in England. And. They're being persecuted, and and so they're they're trying to... uh demonstrate their Solidarity. Thank you. Yeah, that's the word I was looking for a minute ago. Couldn't find it. it was in there somewhere but it had to rattle around for a little bit yeah it worked its way out Exactly.
Speaker: Didn't plan to talk about any of this today, by the way. Great intro. that Heh. Appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. It meant... The funny thing is it's not a great intro, but anyway.
Speaker: Um... it's it you know we're just We're trying to lay foundations because we don't know who's listening, and and maybe maybe maybe a lot of folk are already familiar with all this, and maybe folk aren't, and the folk that aren't.
Speaker: I probably haven't been that clear but this is not what we're talking about, but there's that foundation. And all we're saying is, okay. When you look at, say, covenant theology.
Speaker: When you look at dispensationalism, which we're not going to talk about today. or when you look at historic Baptist theology. On our way to down the road in so other future broadcasts.
Speaker: Christian nationalism. Other things related, war. civil government, yeah which is Christian nationalism. imprecatory prayer. sabbath We could talk about the Sabbath and and different things.
Speaker: Why do we see things the way that we do? Because we've got to back it up by Scripture. Yeah. And one of the things that I wanted to dispel right here at the beginning, and it's really going to be more relevant for a future discussion.
Speaker: What we're going to say that Baptists historically, this is part of what really makes us Baptists. It's not just believers' baptism. That's part of it. Sure. Well, why believer's baptism? What? What? Why do we believe in that? It's because of the relationship between the covenants. and we We believe only believers are part of the new covenant. And.
Speaker: The Reformed community doesn't, but Presbyterians in particular, they believe that... That infants. born to believing parents are in the new covenant. They can walk away. you know But we we don't believe that. We believe that the only members of the new covenant.
Speaker: are those who have been born of the of the Spirit. Yeah um As you said. this whole discussion. ultimately is going to boil down to... what your view of the covenants is.
Speaker: Yes. So... All that to say... Because some people might be like, okay, why are we... Why are we belaboring this point? Why are we going down this road and talking about...
Speaker: these big words that we were throwing out there. Well, it's because... It is a very foundational. part of your belief system. Because it affects so much of...
Speaker: your view. as a Christian, your view of the world. um And as you said, this is... a more and more mainstream conversation that's taking place right now, not even just in the Christian world.
Speaker: um but i Pretty sure you saw at least some clips from not too long back. ah Doug Wilson, that we've already mentioned, was ah part of a CNN piece. Oh, yeah. um And they were talking about Christian nationalism. yep um And obviously they're coming at it from the standpoint of a lot of.
Speaker: Supporters of Donald Trump, for example, a lot of the MAGA. yeah group and everything would ascribe to some form. of what they would call Christian nationalism. And so they're exploring.
Speaker: CNN is trying to, you know, explore. What in the world does that mean? yeah They have no idea. Obviously, they don't have the foundation to talk about it. And so... All that to say, this is a discussion in the Christian world, for sure.
Speaker: um But it's a discussion. in the larger context as well yeah and so it's important for us to understand how we view. the covenants yeah how we view really how do we view salvation and what does that mean and how Are we called as Christians, as followers of King Jesus?
Speaker: How are we to live that out in the world that we find ourselves in now? yeah yeah That's the practical application right there. That's why we're doing it. So, yeah, appreciate that. I'll just say one more thing on the way to the first.
Speaker: Item. on the table today. okay And this foundational piece is... um I just want to... We're going to say. that the old Uh, Covenant.
Speaker: is fulfilled in Christ. Right. And because it's fulfilled in Christ, it's been set aside. It's no longer in effect. And I know.
Speaker: Some people are going to have questions about that. We'll get to it. And so. We're under. The law of Christ. well The Mosaic Law is not our rule for faith and practice. or for Christian living. The law of Christ is... Now, we don't ignore the Old Testament. It is the Word of God.
Speaker: but we interpret the old testament through the lens of the new through the lens of the apostles through the lens of the law of christ And having said that. We are not saying this is what I wanted to say We are not saying that there is a different standard.
Speaker: Correct. Four. New Covenant believers versus Old Covenant believers in terms of God's And I'm going to use a term that I don't.
Speaker: I'll use a term in general terms, moral law, God's moral law. You got to put language on this or we don't know what we're talking about. I'm not necessarily talking about the tripartite division of the law and the old covenant, the moral law, the civil law, the ceremonial law. Right.
Speaker: Although. Were I Presbyterian, I would equate. that moral law that which would be summed up in the Ten Commandments. with God's overall moral law.
Speaker: I don't necessarily equate the two But that's part of the discussion. But the point I'm making is. You know, this came up on the in the discussion of imprecatory prayer, or comes up in that discussion.
Speaker: you know, imprecatory prayer. was for a particular... reason under the old covenant and it had a particular purpose And. christians Today, under the new covenant, i would the way I would say it is we don't...
Speaker: Pray. those imprecatory prayers. in exactly the same way. Though I would say. certain kinds. We should pray for God to stamp out evil and evil institutions. Right. And so that's a form of imp imprecation. and I don't want to say more than I need to because that's a future broadcast. yeah But basically, imprecation is calling down curses. but If you're not careful in your language, if you say, well...
Speaker: New covenant believers have a better way. We have... the example of Christ, and so we don't pray imprecatory prayers. That can imply that New Covenant believers are under a different standard okay of morality.
Speaker: And that's just not the case. The reason that. that the imprecatory prayers in the Psalms are applied. differently under the New Covenant,
Speaker: Then the old covenant So in order for ah for new covenant believers versus old covenant believers. It's not because god has a different standard god doesn't change it's because the people Under the old covenant.
Speaker: are a different people. than the people under the New Covenant. Are there believers under the ah in the Old Covenant? Well, sure. But the old covenant. was national. It wasn't a salvation covenant. and so Part of what we're going to say in a future broadcast.
Speaker: Beep beep. Heh. Just say what we're going to say and then yeah later we'll say it. I'm so sorry. It's okay. is that Hmm. The imprecation, the imprecatory prayers are... are are preying on national enemies.
Speaker: that that God has declared to be such and and the Israelites were to... is essentially wipe them out. and which of course is a typology. It's a type. It's typical for us.
Speaker: battling our sin, and so... I'm not. praying for God to destroy individual enemies of mine. I want to preach the gospel to them that they might be saved.
Speaker: But at the same time, but the church is a spiritual community. And so we're not out here. wiping out pagans. We're out here preaching the gospel to pagans. But we do want to wipe out abortion. So it's perfectly legitimate to pray that God.
Speaker: would remove abortion from the land. Absolutely. Or I have literally prayed. that the abortion clinic in Greenville, South Carolina would be burned to the ground. I've prayed it many times.
Speaker: I... Good. With one level, it's fine with me if there's just not enough money to fund it or if all the doctors quit. I just want the door shut. I want legislation to shut it down.
Speaker: But I'm okay if it burns to the ground. But i'm not I don't want anybody in there when it burns to the ground. Do you see what I'm saying? Right. I'm not praying for the abortion. It's hard to call them doctors.
Speaker: I'm not praying that God will burn them up in this building. I'm not praying that. And I think some people do. Not all people. within the reform community, but... I've actually heard some people pray like that, and I just don't think that's...
Speaker: That's a future broadcast. yeah We're not even talking about that today, believe it or not. Sorry. Of course we're not. Right. So anyway. You want to tell everybody what we're talking about? Great intro. okay
Speaker: You're so patient. Let's talk about theonomy. Oh, okay. I like that. Good. That's just a ah really long teaser. Yeah.
Speaker: So that, you know, that's the hook. So they'll tune in again next time. I hear you. If they haven't tuned out already. Right. Usually the hook is a good one. But anyway. Okay, theonomy. Yes. Because I want to talk about theonomy if we have time. General equity theonomy. Okay. Where'd that come from?
Speaker: And then the historical Baptist view. And I want to put ah a phrase on it today, a title. That's... um newer, but it all it is is more theological.
Speaker: expression or Development. of a ah genuinely historical Baptist view. so We'll leave it there until we get to it. If we have time, is that okay? All right, so. Theonomy. What is theonomy?
Speaker: Most people probably don't know. but I don't know about our listeners, but certainly comes from two Greek words put together. They us. God. God, yep. And nomos, law, God's law. Okay, that makes sense. So, theonomy.
Speaker: is the position that... And it's rooted in that. that Tripartite or threefold division of the law okay as as covenant theologians see it.
Speaker: And I'm. Again, I believe in covenant theology, just not exactly. the same way that Presbyterian covenant theologians do. So I'm not like... um Again, i'm not we're not dispensational.
Speaker: We believe in the covenants. We we are covenantal. Yeah, we clearly recognize the covenants. Throughout Scripture. Yes. And... A continuity. Salvation's always been.
Speaker: through christ through christ yeah Ha! is is Was it by the law under the old covenant? was so No. It's never been by the law. Yeah. We would say that the law existed to show us our... inability. To be righteous. That's right. um Because as you were talking about earlier about the standard, whether or not the standards changed.
Speaker: ah the standard has always been perfection. Yeah. fact yeah Yep. And... Hello. And... That means... Total. perfection morally.
Speaker: and and otherwise. Not just. however many laws you can enumerate out of the Old Testament. Yeah. So it's it's total perfection. yeah And that's one of the things that Christ talks about.
Speaker: when he's and when he came to Earth. And he says, well, you've heard it said do not murder. Okay, well, if I'm following that law... Then I've done that. But then he says, no, no, no.
Speaker: If you have hatred in your heart towards your brother. you're just as guilty yeah as the murderer. yeah And so the the standard has always been perfection. And we believe that the Old Covenant laws, the Old Testament laws.
Speaker: that were given were given. to show us that it is impossible for man to reach that perfection, sure which is why we needed Jesus, who lived a perfect life.
Speaker: who was completely perfect, completely sinless in every single way. Yeah. so that he could make the sacrifice that we could have his righteousness imputed to us.
Speaker: And our... sin imputed to him that he pays the penalty for yeah and so even in the Old Testament. It was looking forward.
Speaker: to that seat of the woman. That was... foretold all the way back in the garden. Yeah. and every person in the Old Testament. from then on. was looking forward To that redeemer and trusting in him. Yeah, that's how they were saved Yes. Not by whether or not they followed every jot and tittle of the law. That's right. that's Yeah.
Speaker: Well said. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so when you when you think about the old covenant law. We think about it as as the law, the old law versus the new law.
Speaker: Not a different standard. But the law of Christ, and we got to explain that. Another time, but... Again, Presbyterian Westminster covenant theology, I'll just put it that way. And we're close. We're close. But not not exactly. That's why we're Baptist.
Speaker: Just being clear. They would see, and and even the 1689 Baptist folk would see this. tripartite division. the moral law, The ceremonial law, the civil law.
Speaker: Now again, I recognize... Okay, it's nice when to be able to to talk about different kinds of laws. I have no problem with that. Oh, yes. Some of these are civil laws or judicial laws. and These are ceremonial laws like circumcision or whatever.
Speaker: Don't touch anything unclean. And then moral laws, thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal, etc. Thou shalt not commit adultery. i get that i get that But they're saying a little bit more than that. and so Sayonami?
Speaker: says, get back to the subject. Says, um... that the The moral law... as well as the civil law.
Speaker: is binding on... nations today. So a lot of Presbyterians, in fact. historically Up until the 1970s?
Speaker: Nobody really said that. they But... I'll tell you what, how I will talk, you and I will talk, and we'll tell y 'all. Hehe. Howdy. They conceived of it. But. I'm just saying.
Speaker: Typically. The moral law is binding. on everybody. So it's binding on nations today, but... No, not the... old covenant judicial law well the anonymous will say yes We're bound to.
Speaker: adhere to that that civil law essentially as it's given, including the penalties, et cetera. All right, so that's theonomy. Now the question is, Is that really what Westminster taught? And the answer is no.
Speaker: No. Theonomy. Came about, I mentioned the 1970s, it came about... R .J. Rush Dooney. I forget the title of his book. I wrote it down. Let me just check it. what the institutes of biblical law there you go the institutes of biblical law So he and others.
Speaker: Greg Bonson being among, I would say, the most notable. And Greg Bonson. He's a hero of mine. you know If you want to use that term loosely, I mean, Jesus, right, is our... Anyway.
Speaker: I mean. Greg Bonson. Distilling Cornelius Van Til for some presuppositional apologetics. Wow. I don't know of anybody better. her And I'm not criticizing others. I'm just saying Bonson was amazing.
Speaker: And press tune. pastor he died way too young as far as i'm concerned of course whatever god does is right but Anyway. Bonson helped propagate that, but it it was just this.
Speaker: it's Reconstructionism is another another word for the idea that... They're post -millennial. Okay. Okay. Postmillennialism, the gospel is going to spread in such a way.
Speaker: That this this thousand year reign in revelation this thousand -year reign of Christ in Revelation 20. there There are different ways to conceive of it within older post -millennialism versus newer post -millennialism of today. But essentially...
Speaker: the The gospel is going to spread. in such a way it's going to grow and grow and grow and grow and grow spread across the earth And not only. will most people...
Speaker: and these are some of the nuances, either be saved or Christianized. Even... in civil institutions, nations, governments. We'll all be Christianized.
Speaker: and prior to the Second Coming of Christ. So it's ah it's a View and we're not commenting one way or the other on post -mill, on -mill, or pre -mill today. We probably will as we get down the road into it. I don't want to comment on it today.
Speaker: you know, rush dooney i think it was rush dooney Or, yeah, I think it was Rush Dooney, the father of Reconstructionism, the adamant postmill, right? Adamant theonomist.
Speaker: He said one time, I do reserve the right to change my mind in midair. ah ah Yeah, and obviously, yeah he's... Saying, well, if you pre -trib rapture guys are right, okay. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: That'll be great. I agree. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. If my dispensations mothers are right. Hallelujah. Yeah, yeah. And frankly, if my post -mill brothers are right, hallelujah. My ob -mill brothers are right, hallelujah. You know, whatever. Historical pre, it's all good.
Speaker: Because whoever's right, at the end, Jesus is still king. Exactly. Hallelujah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think we need to kind of. come down somewhere, but... But I also think we need to be very... collegial with one or another. I don't think we need to be.
Speaker: adamant and ugly and all that. and know most Most people I know aren't adamant and ugly. and Well, adamant. i'm i mean i'm adamantly for my position yeah but not in a mean way anyway And we're not just trying to be nice either.
Speaker: I want to be Christ -like. Okay, so that's theonomy. Now. Theonomy. There's still a lot of people that hold a theonomy. But.
Speaker: There's a lot of folk in the reform world. A lot of Post Mills in the reform world. Who? They don't buy Rush Dooney's brand of theonomy. Okay.
Speaker: So... They've come up with a term. General Equity Theonomy Okay. And that term. is not a term that goes back to Westminster. Now, the term general equity goes back to Westminster.
Speaker: But general equity theonomy. Doesn't go back. to Westminster. And I think that's important. It's not any kind of a gotcha. It's nothing like that.
Speaker: Because I'm going to disagree. in some measure with general equity theonomy. So it's not a gotcha. It's just to say. it It came around a lot more recently. Any idea how it came around.
Speaker: No, I wasn't sure either, just to be honest with you. I knew it was new. I could have almost guessed. in a Innocent. If you look at the timeline, Rush Dooney, Bonson. who's next and who calls himself a general equity theonomist and who's Very influential.
Speaker: And I know it's been around a few years. It came around with the likes of Doug Wilson. And James White. By the way, James White's a Baptist. Doug Wilson. He's Presbyterian. He's part of the... the Craig, you know, found, I think he founded Craig.
Speaker: Okay. um I might be. I hope I'm not wrong about that. No, I hope i'm yeah hope I'm not wrong about that, yeah. okay Yeah, I hope I'm right. Let me just say it that way.
Speaker: Heh heh. and But anyway, be regardless, so they realized. Okay. I don't know that I really, well, first off, I'm sure they were like, I don't know that I really agree that we need to bring everything over lock, stock and barrel.
Speaker: But also I think they wanted to. pare down some of the Wow, really? You want a stone? Certain individuals to death? you Anyway.
Speaker: Listen. All right. and And they would agree with what I'm about to say. Well, I'll just ask you. I'll just ask you a question, and and we might disagree. I don't know. But do you? Do you reject?
Speaker: certain things or are you tempted to reject certain things? In the Old Testament, stoning. Achan and his entire family for the sin of Achan.
Speaker: In that context, or do do you kind of, ooh. Or, you know... that That's terrible. That's bad. What's God up to there? or like the wiping out of the canaanites does that make you feel I just wish that wasn't in the Bible.
Speaker: I wouldn't say I wish it's not in the Bible. Yeah. um I do understand why it's it's... maybe difficult on the surface. Oh, sure. To marry it with the New Testament. Sure.
Speaker: But again, it would boil down to an understanding. of The covenant. Yep. And... the way. that it was administered. In the Old Testament.
Speaker: Verses after Christ came. Sure. yeah um I would call the the old covenant, we've already said it's not a salvation covenant. right right It was a preservation. covenant there you go um and it was preserving the nation of people yeah um Why?
Speaker: to get us to Christ, right? yeah The whole point of preserving the nation of Israel. is because God had decreed... that his son would be born in that line. yeah And so everything that happened to preserve the nation of Israel.
Speaker: Was done towards that end and towards that purpose so that Christ. would come, yeah um and so wiping out an entire nation. When you view that under the context of it being a preservation.
Speaker: Covenant. If that entire nation is trying to wipe out this entire nation that God... has ordained yeah to be the nation through which his son's going to come Well, then, yeah, everything God ordains is right.
Speaker: Oh yeah. the stoning of Aiken and those things to preserve. the the purity of God's people. relatively speaking.
Speaker: They weren't pure. They they were sinners. But. to prevent the sin in the camp. as it were. yeah um it makes sense under that context but again understanding that now that christ has come The context has changed.
Speaker: Yes, that's right. The context has changed. And also, let's let's take it a step further. And then I want to Well, let me say this first because I'll forget it. I don't think we should. gloat.
Speaker: And laugh. that entire families or entire nations wiped out. no I don't think we should gloat. or be gleeful about people in hell. The Bible itself says God does not delight in the death of the wicked. Well, how do you reconcile that with him putting... the wicked to death. Well, that's his justice. Doesn't mean he's up there.
Speaker: you know giggling about it No. The Bible does s say in Psalm 2, The Lord. I don't know if this is in Psalm 2, but I know he holds the nations in derision. He laughs at their schemes and plans.
Speaker: That's not the... Ha ha, you're in hell now. Look what I did to you. Ha ha ha. No, it's... It's a way to say that he scoffs. At the. The impotent.
Speaker: puny plans he's not bothered or threatened by it no No, exactly. Because his plan is is already set and it's going to yeah come to fruition. Yeah. All right. So let me go back. even though So we we we agree. We don't delight and gloat. No.
Speaker: Okay. Now, but let's let's fast forward. To. Say Romans 9, for example. where Paul, very clearly. He's talking about election. Then he says...
Speaker: For this very purpose, I've raised Pharaoh up. That'll make sure my Power in him. I don't I don't have the exact but I'm paraphrasing that I might show my power and my glory.
Speaker: And, um you know. Pharaoh and his army were destroyed. And. Paul's talking about... how God Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated, and then he he goes into the the imagined interlocutor, right objector.
Speaker: Well, you will say to me, you know, why does he yet find fault? Pharaoh was created for this very purpose, it says. And, you know, Jacob overloved Esau, but hated before they were born. before they'd done any good or evil, while they were still in the womb.
Speaker: And he said, you know... You will say to me, why does he yet find fault? Well, Paul's answer. It's... Well, who are you, old man, you know to reply against God? Yeah, the Lord is in the heavens. He does as He pleases. Exactly.
Speaker: So... What I would say is that I agree with you 100 % what you said before. I would say I'm not about to argue with God. But I'd also bring in that that justice piece. One of the reasons that he wiped out One of the other reasons yeah that he wiped out.
Speaker: you know the Canaanites, entire nations. is to demonstrate just how wicked human beings are. Yeah, they were wicked. They were wicked, and they deserve to be wiped out. And they weren't just wicked because they were enemies of Israel. they they were wicked in in everything they did yeah you know we we we have records of child sacrifice and and all kinds of atrocities yes that took place in these pagan nations. yeah
Speaker: So everything that they did was wicked. So they were deserving. of the justice. and the judgment that that they received. just like we all are. without grace yeah Yeah, I didn't mean to. no tell you on that No, I want you to roll, bro.
Speaker: That's all I was going to say, and you said it, the last line. We too should be wiped out. Exactly. but he's been The nation of Israel. In the Old Testament. Thank you. I mean, yeah we've talked about it before, but as soon as they're delivered from Pharaoh that we just talked about, what do they immediately do when they're out in the wilderness? and Moses is gone for a few hours. yeah They immediately yeah start building an idol yeah and going longing for their pagan gods that they're captors.
Speaker: worshipped And in in time after time after time, we see throughout the Old Testament. of Israel. Being very wicked and you know we get when we get to the Kings And we get the to the division of the kingdom.
Speaker: And we start seeing some of these northern and southern kings. And the just awful things that they did. Yeah. They were well deserving of destruction as well. That's right. um And so.
Speaker: Again. They didn't. they they And it wasn't. because of some old covenant that they were preserved. It was because of the plan of salvation.
Speaker: that they would preserve. Yeah. And god that that was an act of God's grace. An act of God's grace, which he was going to put on display. He puts his justice on display in... Striking down Pharaoh.
Speaker: the Canaanites, whoever. but he puts his grace on display. and saving. Anyone, Jew or Gentile. So yeah. And. um Hmm.
Speaker: And it goes back to what you said earlier. And then I want to say one more thing, but when you were talking about. part of the purpose for the Old Covenant law. was to show Israel They're. inability also to cause sin to multiply, as it were. Because...
Speaker: the This is going to be an interesting. reality when we come to Talking about. What? What? Why do we believe what we believe up about civil government? It goes back to what we believe, baptism, it goes back to the Noahic covenant, you know, not the Mosaic. Not Moses, but Noah. I'll just throw this on. I didn't plan to. Well, let me see what I was going to say, and then I'll come back. Go ahead. Because I don't want people to be. You are talking in circles.
Speaker: Which i don't I don't like people who do that. And here I am. I do it. It's actually more like an oval. Yeah. yeah because it's long right yeah it gets longer you got it bro yeah i feel you yeah Part of it is to show them.
Speaker: their inability to save themselves. to show them their their wickedness, sin may abound. and then Also, big Killing the nations, destroying the nations is the same thing. Their sinfulness.
Speaker: They deserve it. but also so and they've rejected God. but also... It shows God's holiness. We... Oh man, I was... Talking to two brothers in our church recently.
Speaker: And. We can. One of them had had a discussion. With. i just I don't know how else to say it. armenian people who are Armenian in their theology. Okay.
Speaker: and And let me just stipulate, there are so many Armenian believers who... are way more holy than i way more godly than i i mean that sincerely i'm not just saying that I know him. And, man, i'm I'm praying. I'm like, Lord, help me. Not because it's a race, but i um I hate sin. I hate my sin.
Speaker: But anyway... A lot of Armenians, they'll get they'll get upset when you talk about election. And part of it is because... They think.
Speaker: that we're Impugning God's Character So... I'm okay. I disagree with them. But. Because they don't they don't believe election about election the same way I do.
Speaker: But I appreciate them wanting to defend the character of God. sure yeah ah Christians want to defend the character of God. Yes. So. I'm all about that. But what we were talking about was.
Speaker: Some, not all, but some who raise certain objections and they really get heated. and And they talk about, well, How could God...
Speaker: do kill kill the Canaanites. We just use that as an example. We can pull in other examples. I don't necessarily want to. they're There are a bunch of examples. or are You know, if you say. Anyway.
Speaker: I think sometimes it really does boil down. Well, I know it boils down to. A lack of biblical understanding. in terms of what the Bible says about...
Speaker: Sin. and human nature, because in in a lot of our churches, People are taught. from the time they're born. that human beings are...
Speaker: basically good. Or maybe they're not maybe in some of them they're not taught that, but they're taught they have a spark of goodness. or They're taught God is good. let me Let me put it that way. They're taught God is good, and he is. god is good god is good god is good And so we know.
Speaker: Like if we were to. kill Just wipe out an entire nation and kill all the babies. No, that's not good. So I don't think that's good. Genocide from a human perspective, that's not good. But if God does it, that's a different dynamic.
Speaker: And I think the reason that a lot of folk push back on that is they they can't reconcile the goodness of God. with that. Sure. do you You think I'm right about that? i Yeah. Well, I think that's what a lot of them are doing. Yeah. And again.
Speaker: Not to go too far down the rabbit trail. but Right. It ultimately like you said comes down to your view of sin and God's holiness. Bip. I was raised in a... ah more Armenian background. Yeah, me too. And, uh...
Speaker: I learned the Roman's road and I was taught at a very early age. All have sinned. And yeah all means all, right? just All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That's right. and then What else does Romans say? The wages... of sin is death yeah is death and so All of us.
Speaker: have earned those wages. And so... And again, this is what it kind of always comes up in in this discussion of, well, how could God... destroy this person how could god Send this person to hell. that When you truly start to understand God's holiness.
Speaker: and his sovereignty. and all of those things. The question really good can become. How can God redeem? anyone.
Speaker: Right. Not not how can God destroy this person, but how could he save me? Yeah, because. i should I should die too. Yeah. ah And by the standard of God's holiness, I should die.
Speaker: ah You should die. All of us should. yeah So... Again, it's an understanding and recognition that. Uh... God is... perfectly holy. And as we said before, that standard of perfection.
Speaker: of holiness. has always existed. And all of us violate that. So the real question is. Or the marvel, I guess, would be a better way to say it, is as that God would redeem.
Speaker: Any of them. yeah Yeah that's right. Hmm.
Speaker: Well let's move on then. Okay. You know, because we can talk about this all day. Sure, sure. And and you know. Both of us could, and and we'd enjoy it. Yeah.
Speaker: We were talking about general equity theonomy. And I just went down some rabbit holes, talking in circles. So let me come back to that and leave off the other dynamic that we'll get to. It's just interesting, but we'll get to it another time.
Speaker: So then... um General equity theonomy is the idea that... Well, we don't bring the the civil law of the old covenant.
Speaker: lock, stock and barrel into. modern civil governments today. But we do need... to look primarily at the Mosaic Civil Code.
Speaker: And. implement. the principles underneath those laws. today. And I do think that.
Speaker: Not that I think is the wrong word. I i am aware that. ah Even the Westminster. divines would say something very similar.
Speaker: I want to get to what they were what they were saying. But, um... Because I think there is a distinction, but but essentially general equity, theonomy.
Speaker: would talk about. the the principles. Underlying that. that civil law in the Old Covenant and applied I don't know what's the word I want to use, but. um Anyway, they We'll leave it there for now. so the the Probably the easiest example.
Speaker: One of the the civil laws in the Old Testament, Old Covenant. Put a parapet on on on your roof. Put a railing. so that folk won't fall off and die. And if they do, then...
Speaker: I don't remember the penalty. i haven't looked at that particular text in a while. i Believe it or not, I read through the entire book of Leviticus not long ago. Amen. But. um my but My brain's just not what it was.
Speaker: Don't remember. Certain things. Anyway. Which is why we have grace. Yeah, praise the Lord. Because not only can we not. fulfill the law we can't even remember at all.
Speaker: That's right. That's right. Heh. Amen. Anyway. So the the the principle applied today. I always, because I'm around the swimming pool a lot. I always apply it. Well, you should.
Speaker: You should have a fence around your swimming pool if you live in a neighborhood. because You know, little children down the street might wander into your pool when you're not there and they might drown.
Speaker: And as good Christians, we we want to do our very best to... prevent that from happening. And of course, the general equity theonomist. I would say would essentially. um Write that into the civil code.
Speaker: Okay. okay And. um Yeah, i don't I don't know that I'm opposed to that. i'm in fact i'm in favor of that i'll go ahead man i'll go out on a limb i'm in favor Listen, I'm not a huge...
Speaker: I'm a limited government guy. sure But that doesn't mean I don't. believe in you know no government. and Anyway. Okay. Now. We know where where Theonomy came in the 1970s, Rush Dooney and those who followed him, Bonson, etc.
Speaker: Doug Wilson, James White. General Equity, Theonomy and many others. I would say the the majority of... reformed. whether you're Presbyterian or Baptist. I might be wrong about Presbyterians. I don't know. I haven't done a survey.
Speaker: But the majority of the people that I read. ah contemporary people. in in our world. We're in that world. would be general equity, Theonomous, not... Capital T Theonomist, we'll put it in that way, as others do.
Speaker: i didn't make that up others have made that up They'd be general equity theonomists. And again. I'm not. I'm sympathetic. I'm sympathetic to that view because my view is not that different. It is, it's nuanced, but.
Speaker: Nevertheless. but Yeah, well, i would I just wanted to say that I guess maybe... One of my big criticisms of. either brand of theonomy.
Speaker: would be... When you talk about this whole... three part division. of the law um of the old. covenant law, Old Testament law. um being divided into these three categories. As you said before,
Speaker: You can pretty clearly look at. them and see okay this is applied in this context this is applied in this context And so, okay, there's civil, there's moral. They're ceremonial.
Speaker: but I still feel like there's a lot of conjecture. that takes place to say that. This category. is still binding this category is no longer binding I feel like...
Speaker: That's a pretty important. detail that would have been revealed to us yeah Bye. go ahead i don't obviously Every single thing. that we believe as Christians.
Speaker: Isn't. Word for word spelled out in Scripture. We understand that. The word Trinity never appears in Scripture, but we wholeheartedly... Believe in that. But ah I still feel like that is something that...
Speaker: That seems like a pretty major detail that... would have been revealed to us. If that were the case, and I don't see that in scripture. Yeah. Can I speak? Go ahead. I did not want to interrupt that.
Speaker: but I was just excited because I think what you just said. I've never heard anybody put it that way. And I'm being sincere here. I always try to be sincere unless you know I'm joking. I'm not joking.
Speaker: I think you just nailed it. Because you know what we believe. And it's rooted in scripture. But to say what. Yeah. Uh... Kassum? Well, just the moral law. Some know the moral and the civil, but not the ceremonial.
Speaker: What law did Jesus fulfill? someone say well ceremonial. Now, most of them are going to say. Well, he fulfilled all of it. All of it, right. and we do This is what we say, of course. And and and again, I'm... I'm just talking about.
Speaker: A few people here and there I've heard. Maybe they're not informed when they say, no, just a ceremonial. But anyway, yeah, that's an important detail. In other words, I think what you said is is is one of the most profound things you could ever say.
Speaker: We... Because... This is pretty important. We're going to try to figure out what to do and how to do it. Should be spelled out somewhere, somehow, some way. And we think it is. And we're going to get to it right now. Now we're not going to have. the time to answer some questions that we wanted to. We'll do that. Maybe part two. Can we do a part two before we do some of the other things? We love part two. We do. Yeah.
Speaker: Absolutely. Alright, let me start off with this. This is the interesting thing I was going to say before. and And it relates. profoundly. based on what you just said.
Speaker: But I didn't plan on starting here is my point. Okay. Sorry. So in Romans 5, I think it's Romans 5. Paul's talking about how.
Speaker: in at In Adam, excuse me, in Adam I'll die. Sorry, excuse me. But in Christ... All are made alive. And again. All means all, but the all there are all. All his who are all who are in Christ, right.
Speaker: Okay. See, I'm tempted to go down another route. I know, I know. no You want to? You do it. If you don't, well, I'll stay on target. stay on target on target stay on target that's exactly what popped into my head Okay.
Speaker: but then he And then he says something to the effect. um And I didn't look this up before, so I'm going way back in my memory, but he talks about how. yeah You know, Abraham And probably this is...
Speaker: Yeah, Romans 4, Abraham was saved. So before he was circumcised, Abraham was saved by faith. He believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness. And he's going on, he's talking about all that. And then he gets to chapter 5.
Speaker: And he somehow, in Adam, all dying, Christ's daughter made alive. And then he talks about how Adam sinned. And sin spread to all men. Mm -hmm. and what Christ did.
Speaker: You know, he did for his people. So you've got... Federal Headship. So we're we believe in biblical federalism. I point that out because the 1689 folk. Today, Reformed Baptists call themselves 1689 Federalists. Okay, well, I'm i'm a Federalist.
Speaker: what What does that mean? well Adam is the representative head of the entire human race. The reason we say we're dead in sin we're born dead in sin. And not everybody believes that, but that's what the Bible says. We are born dead in sin right because of Adam. Okay.
Speaker: And we are here to send nature. And there's much more we can say about that. But Christ is the federal head. of all his people. and And you can put it however you want. All his elect, or you can say all those who believe.
Speaker: Okay. I'm good. but heat did what he did. He effectually paid for their sin on the cross. It is it is finished. Okay. Nail Then he gets into, again, I can't remember the order, and I didn't mean to talk about all that, but I think it's important.
Speaker: So he says... um Forgive me. I didn't forget how he gets there. Again, we should bring our Bibles. But he talks about how. Oh, yes, the promise.
Speaker: that God made to Abraham. which was ultimately fulfilled in his seed, which is Jesus. And all those in Jesus. All those in Christ. That promise cannot be annulled. Bye.
Speaker: ah The old covenant, the Mosaic covenant. And he says, um The promise to Abraham was 430 years before the law. 430 years before the law. That's how he says it.
Speaker: So I think I got that right. which is important. Hmph. And so... but he But then he says this, and this is where I was going, sorry. He says, nevertheless.
Speaker: Death? RAINED. Be. Well, maybe even before this he says, And where there is no law, that's what he says, where there is no law, there is no...
Speaker: Transgression or violation. or whatever. You guys check me out on this Romans 5. It's in there. Okay. boom And I'm butchering it. But you're getting the gist.
Speaker: Okay. So, The promise came 430 years before the law. And where there is no law. There is no... Transgression. Nevertheless.
Speaker: Death reigned between Adam... and Moses. Well, wait a minute. that That's huge. It's huge because there was no given law. that men were breaking.
Speaker: But they were. Violating. that standard of Perfection. that we talked about earlier. And so therefore. As their wages, they receive death. That's right.
Speaker: That's right. And that's it. That's the point. and the Mosaic Law hadn't been given yet. Nevertheless, death reigned. Even on those who didn't sin, he says, the same way Adam did. God told Adam, don't eat of this. so Tree you do you'll die And... Of course. ah covenant theologians see the covenant of works that they believe that the the Ten Commandments, the the whole moral law was given to Adam in the covenant of works and all that.
Speaker: Again. We can debate that. All we're told is is it not that Adam. was allowed to kill people. He wasn't. But... The point being. The law that he broke. was he partook of the the fruit.
Speaker: The forbidden fruit. which is basically saying God's holding out on me, not trusting God, wanting to be his God, etc. Become an autonomous. not dependent on God. We could go all that way. We're just settling. It's not just Oh, he ate a piece of fruit. People say, what's the big deal? Well, that's because that's just the outworking of the big deal. Big deal in his heart.
Speaker: He's calling God a liar. satan called him a liar and adam him believed him he's doing exactly what satan had done yeah before he was cast down that's right is that he attempted to usurp the throne. yep and be God himself and make.
Speaker: the decisions for himself yes what satan had done and then he tempted yeah Adam and Eve to do the very same. and they went along with it. Yeah, that's right. Okay, so...
Speaker: As you said. God holds all those people. Between Adam and Moses, who weren't under the Mosaic law. and they weren't under the covenant of of works. in In the garden. They weren't under the covenant of Christ.
Speaker: But they died because of their their sin. All right. So now... Does that have any bearing? on. how we think of civil governments today. Well, I think it does. And I think it has bearing in this way.
Speaker: Go back to... Genesis. You got Adam. And then... You know, he sins, and then you have the promise that you mentioned earlier, Genesis 3, 15, the seed of the woman versus the seed of the serpent.
Speaker: Serpent's going to bruise your heel. his heel, and but... but Seat of the Woman is going to... Crushed Satan's head. Yep, serpent's head. And then you've got...
Speaker: So now you've got this conflict moving forward between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman, which you you outlined on one of our broadcasts, I think. or Maybe it was in a sermon. I don't know. I think you did it on one of our broadcasts. Anyway. Doesn't matter.
Speaker: See you guys. You know, Cain and Abel. And. Fast forward. You get to Genesis 6. And. The wickedness of man's heart, the rebellion of man's heart, the intent of man's heart is only evil all the time. God.
Speaker: There's no one here that... um is a good representative of me. see Man's creating the image of God. We're to image him for. So what is he going to do? He's going to destroy the earth with a flood. And he does. But he does find... Noah.
Speaker: Grace, by grace, he finds him righteous. Noah's fallen because God's... Change his heart. The Ark of Salvation, which is the type of Christ, etc. But what do you get? And after that, you get the Noahic covenant. And what's what's in the Noahic covenant? Well, in Genesis 9, 6, whoever sheds man's blood.
Speaker: ah His blood shall be shed by man or something like that. We should get our Bibles out. But... Anyway, he makes a covenant not only with Noah.
Speaker: but with creation. Because he brings in every living thing. whoop We're going to read it next time as our intro. Okay. Can we do that? I like it. So there there's the teaser.
Speaker: So. But anyway, he makes a covenant. And. Basically, you've got this this notion of... Okay, not. not murdering others and not stealing and all that.
Speaker: And I think... And I'll say I think because I'm not being dogmatic, but um this is where I root my. A lot of my understanding. I don't think that we're to... to of all the... ah mosaic economy into modern civil governments because Because the law of Moses was given to a specific people.
Speaker: Right. For a specific purpose. exactly And you know as well as I that Israel was a type of something. Type of? Christ. christ He's the true Israel. and the Old Covenant people of God.
Speaker: or a type of something. There it is. Type of... the new covenant people of God, the true people of God, which is comprised of Jew and Gentile in Christ. And so...
Speaker: the the earthly kingdom of Israel. is a type of the spiritual kingdom of God. And so I just don't think you want to pull out. The Mosaic Covenant started applying it.
Speaker: Mm -hmm. Two... to Gentile. civil governments across the globe today. Not that we can't get principles anywhere in the Bible. But I think...
Speaker: The... I think... Civil government today is rooted. in that Noahic covenant, which would be... and creation.
Speaker: create I'll bring in creation, which would be... Natural law, so we have to get into discussion of our understanding of natural law. It... natural law would be things like God has written on our heart by virtue of us being created in the image of God.
Speaker: Things like murder's bad, stealing's bad. Those kinds of things. The problem is people suppress the truth. We understand that. yeah But it's not everything that God commands for the church.
Speaker: Is not. enforced by civil government. You you have church discipline. and the church and the state are two different things. Now we should... Influence the state. That's why we have to have a future broadcast because some people are going to say, well, you don't.
Speaker: But anyway. We're going to talk about why. We, historical Baptists... one of the theological labels that's come along today is progressive covenantalism. Okay.
Speaker: which is what you have outlined a few times without using the label. Yeah. And all that says is, like you said a few minutes ago, yeah, are we believe in all the covenants. And God is revealing.
Speaker: himself. and working with his people. through the covenants that he gave. The ultimate. fulfillment of all of them is Christ. And he ratified the new covenant in his blood.
Speaker: So, God's revelation is progressive. We're using progressive in... That sense, not the political sense of like progressivism today, which is. I mean, you're still They're still saying they're progressing because we know better.
Speaker: We know better than God. Well, no, you don't. So anyway, the point being. A lot of, uh, theonomist and, um, General Equity Theonomists would accuse...
Speaker: Progressive covenantalist. or historical Baptist, whichever phrase you want to use. Again, like I said, I think progressive covenantalism is one attempt. Two. expand on.
Speaker: and nailed down historic Baptist theology, and it has bearing on civil government. you could You could use the term New Covenant Theology, whatever. But anyway... All of that to say...
Speaker: Some of them would say, oh, well. Okay, you just... Because we don't believe. that the Mosaic Law... should be transferred They would say, well, you're just You're just a classical liberal and they're not calling us like modern day. political liberals.
Speaker: Classic liberalism would be more akin to secular libertarianism. to dying. We believe in liberty. But we're not classical liberals. We're rooting. our understanding in Scripture, in...
Speaker: this ordinance given to all of creation. In Genesis 6, 7, 8, 9. 10 maybe. Right there in Genesis is all I'm saying.
Speaker: Now. We'll talk about that next time. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, we... um And again, not to belabor too much, but... we We believe that there should be... good laws.
Speaker: we believe that there should be laws that outlaw certain things that ban certain things yes Not because it's laid out. in the mosaic. law Right.
Speaker: but because As I mentioned earlier, as Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. that it's an issue of the heart. So in other words, what I'm saying is the reason that we want certain things outlawed, or we want certain things banned.
Speaker: is not because it's laid out in a certain... list in the Old Testament. but because those things that we want outlawed or banned. Go against the nature. and heart. of god Yeah. And we do believe that under the new covenant of Christ.
Speaker: that the law of Christ that you mentioned way back at the very beginning yeah is a law that's written on our hearts in Jeremiah even. references that when he references the new covenant that would be become yeah um And then Jesus reiterates it in the Sermon on the Mount. Yeah. um When he says, you know, you've heard that it said you shall not murder, you shall not.
Speaker: commit adultery. you know he's listing off all of these mosaic commands right but he's saying that the law of Christ, my law. is about your heart. So it's not just about...
Speaker: Um... checking off this these boxes. Right. and following. a Mosaic covenant law. It's about... the position of your heart. And why is murder wrong?
Speaker: First of all, it's wrong because... God created life. And so to take life is going against the nature of God. But also, as as Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, it's because that is an outworking of hatred in your heart.
Speaker: Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount tells us why. Kane. Send. When he killed Abel. Because. There was never said. in the garden that we have recorded you shall not murder.
Speaker: So why was it wrong? for Cain to kill Abel. It wasn't written down as a law. It was because... It went against the nature of God. yeah And it was a reflection of the hatred in his heart that he had towards his brother. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker: That's right. So we do. believe that there should be good civil laws. Yeah. We just don't believe that it's a certain set of rules that were laid out under Moses. Right. And we believe Christians should influence yes civil government.
Speaker: And we should have an influence on civil law, but yeah. Because we want an influence over hearts and minds. Yeah, and that's what you mean by good civil law? Yeah. So, yeah, and so we'll just flesh that out a little bit more next time. And at some point, we're going to get to the whole Christian nationalism thing. As we said earlier, we're going to get to R2K.
Speaker: We're going to get to transformationalism. yeah Which is it, or is there is there a legitimate third way? Not third -way -ism, but anyway. so Hopefully. you know.
Speaker: In a roundabout way. We'll figure some things out. Sounds good. Alright brother. Anything else? No, I think we're good. Go ahead and close this out. All right. We will see you next time on Answering Pilot.
Speaker: The Answering Pilot Podcast is a ministry of Randall House Church in Greer, South Carolina. You can learn more at www .randallhousebeer .com. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Randall House Church.
Speaker: Don't forget to like and subscribe. and we'll see you next time.
