Transcript
Speaker: Well, Dustin, another podcast. Yep. Yep. Good to see you. And thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I thought you were going to say good to see me. It is good to see you as well. Yeah. Well, I appreciate that. and um You know, it's all about me. But. ah we've uh be with you yeah yeah it's all good yeah yeah so we're gonna be talking about Yeah, we're Baptist. We've been mentioning that a couple of times lately. Let the cat out of the bag. Let the cat out of the bag. Go, but we are so since we're.
Speaker: Baptist, we thought we'd talk about baptism a little bit. Sure. Not going to be exhaustive today. Not going to give 18 arguments on why. you know our position is right though we want to be charitable to our our uh pedo baptist brothers and sisters pedo baptist infant baptism credo baptist believers baptism we obviously hold the believers baptism and um But we want to...
Speaker: We want to be part of that larger evangelical conversation because that's... Part of what a lot of folk are talking about right now. And it's not just the evangelicals. It's the Orthodox and the Roman Catholics. and Um,
Speaker: You know, a lot of the One of the broadcasts we did, we talked about a lot of... Young people in particular, it wasn't just young people, but younger people in particular leaving. ah evangelicalism or Protestantism. Right. headed toward more of a sacramental. yeah type of worship yeah that's right and they were looking for you know, more substance and. more roots historical roots and you know the practice of uh Infant baptism was part of that. sure I don't think we elaborated on that too much. but
Speaker: You know a lot of them You know, that's just. Just what comes with looking at. A certain. early church fathers and certain Christian traditions. And a lot of...
Speaker: talk that I hear today, and I'm sure you're the same. is that a lot of these young folk, these young men in particular, they'll say, well, look, you know, we we are. we're we want and And it's young women too, but we're we're rooting ourselves in historic Christianity.
Speaker: And they'll say, if you go back to the church fathers. where Where do you see? believers baptism it's all infant baptism so you guys they're talking to us as as baptists With particular efforts to believers' baptism, you guys are Johnny -come -latelys. You know, we're going all the way back to church history. And I'm like, well.
Speaker: No. First off, what's the first thing you and I would say? We're getting... Well, where does church history begin? yeah Right. you know and And we say it begins in the book of Acts, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It begins with the apostles themselves.
Speaker: um And that's the founding of the church. Yeah. And so, yeah, it's It sounds... good and orthodox to say we want to go back to the church fathers.
Speaker: But many of these church fathers... are that some are going back to. are. Still. 100, 200, maybe even 300 years after the death of Christ. yeah And so there's still...
Speaker: a couple of centuries worth. of church history that we're skipping to say we're going back to the church fathers exactly right yeah and it's not a criticism it's just just pointing it out and that's what we want to talk about a little bit today A little bit of church history. We're not going to be exhaustive. I don't claim to be a history professor. I i certainly am familiar with church history, as you are. we we We've studied it. but You know, since we're not giving a lecture here. We're going to just paint a broad brush. We are going to give.
Speaker: Some real data, of course, real statistics, but nevertheless. so And I think one of the other things I would say on the way to that discussion. is that even the early church fathers...
Speaker: ah particularly third, fourth, fifth century. Even if you're talking about first century after the apostles have died, let's just say you're talking about. Polycarp. who was a disciple of John. john Thank you.
Speaker: I mean, he Even if you could find a quote. from him on infant baptism and how that's the way we ought to go. He doesn't. carry the same weight of authority.
Speaker: of... as as the apostles themselves, as the New Testament. Now Polycarp didn't say that. and I'm just using that as an example because our ultimate authority is scripture and we really want to.
Speaker: make our arguments on what we believe. And, and. I think our Paedo -Baptist brethren would say the same thing. We want to make our arguments on... um on scripture. That's our authority. Although there are others.
Speaker: Gosh, that's one of the things we talked about. and Actually, they're not sola scriptura, scripture alone. They're more... Roman Catholic in that department and because many, many, many now Protestants are saying, look, no, church tradition has to be part of.
Speaker: Because if you don't have that church tradition or that apostolic authority that's handed down. And then that's why they get about the church fathers, even like you said, third, fourth century. You don't have that. Well, gosh, it's just. Every man's his own pope. And obviously.
Speaker: We don't believe that to be the case. we We do believe that we're called to be Bereans. You know, we use that figuratively. I mean, the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians. Or whoever it was. Yeah, Thessalonians. And they search, you know, Paul's preaching, and they search the Scriptures.
Speaker: the old testament scriptures they had they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul was saying was true. And of course, if he's preaching Jesus... You can find Jesus in the Old Testament. Absolutely. You can find the gospel in the Old Testament. We we talk about that at length. so Anyway, this is another one of those long introductions, but we want to talk about that.
Speaker: First century, second century, third century history, just a little bit. sure If we have time, we'll talk about... believers baptism in general, the new covenant, but maybe, maybe you on another broadcast.
Speaker: But... um you know, are my, my. We were joking about it one day, but I take up more time than I should on these. introductions. I don't mean to. One of our ah church members, though, by the way.
Speaker: said it's one of the ladies in our church she had to you know be driving for a long period of time she does that regularly She said she wanted our podcast to be longer. Yeah, she did. She did. And I was like, whoa. I've never heard anybody say that. But then someone was standing right next to her and said, you need to keep it like 30 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So somewhere between the 30 minute and the five hour mark that she was asking for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. The other lady, I thought it was funny because.
Speaker: Said something about, you know, she's got kids, and yeah I don't know where she was driving here or there. every She said, But the reality is for me. when i get out of the car your podcast is over you know no matter where it is i got you Yeah. i think i think that's typical for a lot of people yeah yeah yeah well yeah yeah i've listened to half of all of our podcasts I haven't listened to the other half of the video. Not the same half, necessarily. Right. No, yeah. Just whatever's on. But anyway.
Speaker: So, sorry. See, this is why. Yes. but Yeah, really and truly for the first four centuries of church history. The norm, the standard, is believer's baptism. And I know that's going to find...
Speaker: This is going to be hard for a lot of folk to believe, and but that's that's the case. You know, you've got... Certainly the New Testament where... you know, they Oh, and again.
Speaker: Baptists are accused and and rightly so, a lot of Baptists. they So the only argument that they have is that the only baptisms that you see in the New Testament... are believers being baptized and they don't have a theology behind it and all the rest.
Speaker: Well, we do have a theology behind it, and I'm i'm sad to say a lot about this aren't. that aware of it. but I'm not going to leave it here, but I will say. When you look at the practice of the early church in the New Testament, All the baptisms were were bapt baptism of believers. They were converted, yeah and they were baptized. And I.
Speaker: And. don't think that's coincidental either i mean i know that that not everything That. Uh... Is not. listed as happening in scripture.
Speaker: Is not. unscriptural, yeah but at the same time... I don't think it's coincidental that every baptism that we see in the New Testament. is...
Speaker: coming after faith or yeah as a profession of right faith. yeah in Christ. Agreed. You've got the Great Commission, and again, it sounds like I'm going into arguing for believers' baptism theologically or exegetically. I don't want to do that. We're just talking about the first century.
Speaker: yeah So, you know, here here you've got the New Testament witness. Now, again, some of our brothers were talking about household baptisms. Sure, sure. And, you know, they would say. Gosh, you know, whole households were baptized. You've got three or four occasions in the book of Acts.
Speaker: And surely there were infants in those households. Well, the only problem with that is... We're actually explicitly told. in in two or three of the, two out of the three instances or three out of the four, whichever it was.
Speaker: that those who believed were baptized. and And the fourth, it it basically just... you know, they preached to them and they were they were baptized. So the implication is not...
Speaker: that infants were baptized as well. ah The implication is they heard the word and just like the... the other texts tell us. those who believe were baptized so. Again, um we're not getting in a defense. per se today of believers baptism, but nevertheless.
Speaker: We're just looking at. um What we see... in the first century. that's That's all we're saying at this point. so Let me move on from that. I do have a couple of notes here this that are going to help me.
Speaker: You've got... you know Again, major figures. Within the... First century, but that's the apostles, of course, but second century, third century.
Speaker: 4th century. And. traditions and and you've got some texts that talk about. the practice of believer's baptism. So, for example,
Speaker: In the first and second century, The earliest manual of discipleship for Christians is called the Didache. And in the Didache, and this is this is circa five. Not five, but 50.
Speaker: To 100 AD. Okay. It explicitly. It gives instructions for those to be baptized. yeah explicit instructions, things that they have to do before they're baptized. Okay. And.
Speaker: Yet they have to fast? Heh. They, uh... They have to make a conscious commitment. and those types of things. so Even though the Didache doesn't say the only...
Speaker: biblical mode of baptism is believer's baptism. They don't even mention it. Infant baptism, they g they just talk about. Believers. Being baptized. So I think that's pretty strong evidence, just like the New Testament.
Speaker: It's pretty strong evidence of what the practice of the early church was. Yeah, I mean, I guess you could say, and again, we get pushback on this, I'm sure, but... The reason that infant baptism isn't discussed is because it wasn't. happening Yeah. Obviously, you would agree with that as Baptist. and um Again, our Presbyterian brethren, among others, would bring in...
Speaker: You know, all the theological reasons for the baptism of infants. We can deal with that. That's not a problem. Not necessarily on this broadcast. But anyway. So then you've got. famous folk, well -known folk, at least. to seminarians, maybe not to the average person in the pew, but Justin Martyr, for example, 100 to 165 AD.
Speaker: He described baptism as being reserved for quote, As many as are persuaded and believe that these things which are taught and said by us are true. All right. So... You don't have...
Speaker: yeah You know... A lot of documentation. But... the writings that we have. you know The comments that we have yeah out of sermons are here and there.
Speaker: So far. It seems to be pointing to The practice, if not just the predominant practice. Listen. i Who knows what people were doing here, there, and everywhere.
Speaker: but the But the predominant practice and in... things that we call church father. Justin Martyr's a church father. These folk are advocating believers' baptism. You've got Tertullian, third century, 155 to...
Speaker: to 20 AD. He's arguing for believers' baptism. You got to know what you're doing before you get baptized. You know, you got to be. say before you're baptized, that kind of thing.
Speaker: And. You know, even in the fourth century. A lot of things are happening in the fourth century. You've got the... I would say...
Speaker: The rise. and the the the beginnings, I would say, of the the catholic church and by the way catholic in the early days Just a minute. catholic faith isn't christian yeah right worldwide worldwide yeah we all believe in that jesus is lord that jesus is god that jesus is raised from the dead You've got the Apostles' Creed.
Speaker: Again, it's not on the same. Level of Scripture. Right. But when it says in the Apostles' Creed, I believe in the... Holy Catholic Church. I used to have it memorized, but... to Sorry.
Speaker: the holy catholic church We're not talking about the Roman Catholic Church. We're talking about... The church universal. Yeah. yeah yeah and and that's part of it is is the universal yeah nature of the church Which, again, is is pointing to the fact that the the church is now going global. That's right. It's exactly not just it's not just these group of Jews from Jerusalem.
Speaker: um that followed after this carpenter, but... The church is global. Yeah. People from every tribe, nation and tongue. Absolutely. Yep, that's the... Beauty of the gospel, praise the Lord. so Even in the fourth century, so the...
Speaker: You've got the Catholic Church, but now you've got the the beginnings of the Roman Catholic Church. Not exactly. Not full -fledged, et cetera. You got a lot of other stuff that's got to happen. so Bear with me on that, any any historians out there.
Speaker: But basically... You know, the the Catholic Church in those days. Like you've got Constantine, who's going to legalize Christianity before Christians were persecuted.
Speaker: and it becomes a state religion. And even then, they were delaying baptism until adulthood, until you could make a profession of faith. Even for children raised in Christian families and all that, I say that.
Speaker: you know, to our our covenant children advocates and all that. And I'm not being ugly. I don't mind saying I might be having a little fun. but Aren't we allowed to? You know, have fun with one another. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amen.
Speaker: Um, You've got, to now let me just say this, in my president and brother. Got to hang on before i you know before you get to the punchline that they'll actually like. John Chrysostom.
Speaker: One of the great preachers, I think they called him Golden Mouth. And. um You know, for me, it's like ah your podcast is over when I get out of the car. But anyway, no, I'm just kidding. We were having fun at church too. um And in Augustan.
Speaker: They were raising Christian families. I know Augustine was, I'm pretty sure. Let me just check my notes. Yeah, Chrysostom was. But they weren't baptized until adulthood. However, here's the punchline.
Speaker: You actually have. A major shift with Augustin. who begins to... That's the wrong word. With a gust and you... Did I say major shift or did I just say shift?
Speaker: You actually have a major shift with Augustine toward infant baptism. So let me go back. And just say a couple of things before. We've already said a few things, but with reference to infant baptism, because I don't want to get.
Speaker: You know, i don't I don't want to be. um and don I don't want to be just one -sided on this. You got in the second century. You see some instance instances of en infant baptism, even though the standard and the norm.
Speaker: is predominantly believers' baptism. You'll see some... Infant baptism is because... People generally thought, well... ah In an emergency, if the infant's going to die, we need to get them baptized. Now, there are all kinds of reasons for that belief. Yeah.
Speaker: And we're not going to get into all that because, listen. One of the arguments that... um Some of the guys we're talking about that that talk about these things. They say, well...
Speaker: If infant baptism is not the way we should go, How do you explain infant baptism in the early church? And we're saying, well, I don't think we see infant baptism in the early church. That's number one.
Speaker: But number two. Let's say you've got widespread infant baptism in the second century. You don't. You you got it here and there. Okay. It's certainly not widespread. It's not widespread until the fourth century. All right. But that's pretty early, they say. Mm -hmm. Those conversations.
Speaker: You know, again, the question, how do you account for the fact that infant baptism gets widespread, is widespread in the early church? If it's not right, well. One of the things we say, I mean, you tell me, brother.
Speaker: What's one of the main reasons that every single letter... Maybe there's one exception, but what's one of the main reasons the letters of the New Testament were written? They're written to the churches themselves.
Speaker: And they were written to correct error. Yeah, there you go. and In a lot of situations. Yeah. That's where I was going. Yeah. Yeah. We... So... If error can arise... in a church that the Apostle Paul planted you within months, apparently. Yeah, it could certainly happen a few hundred years later. Yeah. Yeah, yeah so...
Speaker: We're prone to error. Yes. I mean, I might say something tomorrow that... contradicts what I say today. and i I'm halfway joking about that, but. No, it's easy.
Speaker: And... Christian understanding, Christianity. The Bible, salvation. It's so simple. A child can understand it. Believe on Jesus and you shall be saved.
Speaker: Right? and Now God has to open the heart. We understand that. But at the same time, it's so profound. I mean, scholars have been debating these things for years and years and years. right And it's not because the Bible is complicated.
Speaker: I think it's because of human sin and our... presuppositions and things of that nature. And again, a lack of understanding of the historical background. and yeah You know, genres in the New Testament, all kinds of things like that. but Anyway, we're prone to error.
Speaker: And we're far more prone. You can be prone to error. If you've been a Christian for years and years and years. Yes. for varying reasons, which is sad. um But I would say you're probably more prone to error when when you're a new a new Christian because you just don't know.
Speaker: But anyway, so... It wouldn't surprise me. That they're... they're there is ah There are a number of groups in the second century baptizing infants. i have We don't know that there are, but it wouldn't shake my belief because, again, Scripture is my authority. And, okay, yeah.
Speaker: Corinthian Church, full of air. Thessalonian church, full of error. Galatian church, they were bewitched. yeah yeah That's what Paul says. Yeah, I mean... that's it Any of the churches that got two letters, they had to be full of error, right? Yeah.
Speaker: Or cor if they got three and they one of them was so bad, they couldn't even publish it. That's right. I never thought of it that way. yeah like pick it it's not a good thing to have a first and a second and no no it's not it's really not Yeah, but that that middle letter between 1st and 2nd Corinthians.
Speaker: I'm about to think on that. It's so bad. that The Lord's like, nah. there when not No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it? Anyway. Again, having fun. Yeah, yes, having fun, for sure.
Speaker: we Not making a theological statement on the third letter of the Corinthians. We believe in plenary verbal inspiration. Yes. Yes. Okay. And the preservation of yes God's word. yes so Another topic for another time.
Speaker: But, um... Again... With these infants. From time to time that were baptized, who were, you know, on the. Sadly on the... you know deathbed or whatever the case may be Very high you know infant mortality rates in those days.
Speaker: People worried about their salvation. and Listen, this is part of, you tell me. This is part of what's driving. A lot of young... protestant yeah Men.
Speaker: The other direction wouldn't you say? Yeah, I think so. Not high infant mortality rates. No, no, no, no. But I think. There's a burning desire, and I think it's a good desire. yeah that we want our children to be saved. Yes. Right? We want them to know the Lord. um We don't want them to die without Christ.
Speaker: yeah And so one way of reacting to that possibility. is to go down the road of of a covenant. Type of baptism.
Speaker: Right. um That if I believe it, it has some sort of. spiritual significance as they are an infant. then, yeah, I'm going to be drawn to that. out of the desire to see my children Be saved. um Yeah.
Speaker: Again. It's a good desire. But I do think that. that conclusion is a faulty one. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a sense in which we would say.
Speaker: And we say it with that animosity. or pride or whatever. We just believe that. Those, so you know, who are embracing infant baptism. for that reason, would be...
Speaker: guilty of the same error are these these folk that we're talking about in the second century even though the the norm was still believers baptism you're just talking about Some people here and there who who rushed to baptize their infants. Yeah, again, not to go too far down a rabbit trail, but...
Speaker: Paul, and in one of his letters, and you'll have to forgive me, I can't remember which one, but he even addresses... the practice of baptism for the dead am i right yeah yeah i think it's first corinthians and he's not affirming that practice no But.
Speaker: He does address it and he addresses it. in a different context, yep you know, he's trying to make a point. um about the resurrection, but... He does still address it. And so again,
Speaker: We're talking first century there, the original church. um And they've got an error there from a centered around baptism. And so, again, as we've been saying, because just because it was happening in the early church it doesn't mean that they were right about it. and I feel like in some ways. these these types of debates, these theological debates.
Speaker: They almost are cyclical. Yeah. And so At the beginning when you said, you know, some might call us a Johnny come lately. Because... We might point to...
Speaker: a certain support. for believers baptism. well and then they can say well i've got an earlier support for pedo baptism but we can say well I can go back earlier than that. yeah And I can see support for believers baptism in the New Testament. Yeah. And I can see no evidence of paedo baptism in the New Testament.
Speaker: And so it's. been a reaction from one side to the other. Throughout history, and I think it ebbs and flows. Yep. Uh, to where those thoughts and those sentiments.
Speaker: can rise up. in certain generations and then maybe they die to back down and then they rise back up. again as we've said we're always prone to error That's why we always need to be.
Speaker: Continually. Um,
Speaker: filtering our beliefs. through scripture itself. Yes. Because... we can develop blind spots right And so we can. feel like we're on the right track and and not realize in our own wisdom that we're getting off the rails. And so that's why we need to continually. be searching the scriptures.
Speaker: Continue to be in the word. and filtering those things that we believe. through what sayeth the scriptures, right? Yeah that is exactly right. All right, so quickly now, let's just move on to the third century. Okay. Because you had a few infant baptisms in the second. You've got the practice gaining a little bit of traction in North Africa in the third century because Christianity is spreading.
Speaker: But now let me just mention one of the... Early church fathers are made. Familiar with Tertullian? 200 AD, he argued against infant baptism, even in that context. So I just want to bring that out. He said,
Speaker: You know, you need to understand the gospel and what you're doing before you get baptized? Now... Another church father. about 50 years later.
Speaker: Cyprian of Carthage. He was in favor of infant baptism. So now you're getting. A few more. people that we would know. yeah who are in favor of infant baptism.
Speaker: And so the fourth century... This is when, you know, on on the one hand. It. Infant baptism is still not the norm. But it's spreading.
Speaker: But then you've got people, and this goes back to what you were saying a moment ago. And again, that... This is the point. that There's always error. You got people. Who, they're you know.
Speaker: So I'm on the one hand are afraid of. what happens when you die they're baptizing their infants others are like wait ah We know that baptism, quote -unquote, cleanses from sin. and Again, I don't think baptism cleanses from sin. right It's a picture of being cleansed from sin. yes Which were cleansed by Christ.
Speaker: But... A lot of people today still believe baptism cleanses you from sin. Even in the... Protestant world. So that's another debate. But anyhow. What they would say is.
Speaker: People in the... The 4th century, a lot of folks... They're delaying baptism as long as they can, even till they're on their deathbed, if if they're possible, if they're aware.
Speaker: Because their notion is... Okay, well, baptism cleanses me from sin. Why would I not? Wait until. later in life so that more sins are cleansed. If I do it early, what what about all these other sins? yeah yeah And so again, you're...
Speaker: Is it? Unfortunately, the The church is filled with error throughout history. People who know Jesus are are prone to error, like you said.
Speaker: ah That's part of our fallenness. And the Bible actually addresses that. and It's not like... I mean, this is in one sense, it's one of the things that helps us to at least. lets me know the Bible's true because You know, if you're... if you're like writing writing out a religion.
Speaker: like other world religions, you know the the hero. yeah you know, or the the men of the faith. these are These are men who are mighty men, right? well and in the bible man we see all the sins all the warts all the warts everything I mean the whole point.
Speaker: Is that. When you look at... Adam, he failed. Right. You went through that. You know, well on another broadcast, you could go down the list. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's.
Speaker: But that's one of the things that's so beautiful about, for example, the book of Hebrews. Mm -hmm. passage wrote that we call the Hall of Faith. Yeah. So to speak is. Every single person that's listed.
Speaker: In that chapter in 11, I believe it is, in yeah Hebrews. yep Every single one of them, if we go back. to the old testament and read their full story that's recorded We see failure. We see sin. We see falling.
Speaker: But... We also see that that. failure that sin, that falling. isn't final Because... They weren't saved by some type of ritual. They weren't saved by circumcision. They weren't saved by...
Speaker: any type of baptism. That's right. They were saved by Christ's blood yeah through their faith. in him through believing. in the coming messiah that's right i am that's right um and that's why we're told that the blood of christ cleanses us from all unrighteousness right It... all types.
Speaker: But also... For me personally, that means. Since I've committed in the past, since I've committed now, since I'm going to commit in the future. Yeah. That's exactly right. And when... One ritual can't do that.
Speaker: Which, again, yeah not to go too far down the road, but that's. That's another huge point that Hebrews. is explaining to us is that you know the blood Of. Animals.
Speaker: Animal sacrifice. could not cleanse from sin permanently. That's right. um it didn't cleanse from sin that's right at all that's right and So.
Speaker: That's why we do believe that Christ's blood is... What redeems us because it redeems us fully. And. Eternally. Finally, yeah. Yeah, yeah eternally. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. ah the the sacrificial system of the Old Testament. to Didn't cleanse from sin. it you know God overlooked. and accepted that in a sense.
Speaker: Until... their shadows into the reality. comes and Jesus' blood is what is efficacious. Yeah, so so the... the the two -sided point there.
Speaker: is that... Those particular rituals that we have recorded in the old testament the mosaic law that we have We're told that those rituals could not save yeah that's right but it also means that there's no ritual. That can say.
Speaker: Exactly. and so Regardless of what mode of baptism you would ascribe to... Neither side. should biblically say,
Speaker: that it's saving. um Right. Whether you're baptized as an infant, whether you're baptized as an adult, whether you're dunked, whether you're sprinkled, whatever it is. No matter the ritual, it can't save us. That's right. Only the blood of Christ saves us.
Speaker: We would have a particular. you know, beliefs about the mode. But like you said, we don't, we don't believe that it saves only, only. Only Christ saves. Yes. yeah And we're saved.
Speaker: justified by faith through Him. through Through faith in him. We'll get it right here in a minute. But anyway, yeah. You know, you're in the fourth century and you got infants being baptized here and there.
Speaker: You got people waiting until they're almost dead before they're... They're baptized. Again, there are other prominent figures. I'm not going to go down the list. who weren't baptized as infants but as adults.
Speaker: But then when you get to the fifth century, this is what I was saying earlier. You do see a major shift. We'll we'll stipulate to that. Okay. And the shift came because of Augustine. And you know as well as I.
Speaker: that Augustine is augustine's an interesting figure. He's an interesting... character. I love Augusta in so many ways. Sometimes you read, you know, some of his writings and...
Speaker: yeah Man, he's like the doctrines of grace, basically, you know what we would call the doctrines of grace. And I'm going to come back to that in just a minute. but then other times you read him he's like oh yeah he's roman catholic i mean you know he's So, I guess it's not perfect.
Speaker: that's all i'm so I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. um You're close, but anyway. No, sir. But Augustine, mainly it was because of of the doctrine of original sin. you know what what came to be called Gosh, a thousand years later, we'll say, around numbers.
Speaker: in the Senate of Dort, total depravity. Not that that term wasn't wasn't used before, but... I don't want to give a history of the Senate of Dorton. how they came up with five points basically it was to refute Jacob Arminius and... Five points that he had, but that's a whole different.
Speaker: ball game there. But the point I'm making is. You know, Guston taught. And the Bible teaches. so he got this right that you're born dead in sin and and because of his view of original sin.
Speaker: And what's the origin of our sin? That's what original sin means, right? The origin of our sin, well, ultimately it's because of Adam. Adam is the federal head. yeah of the human race what he did he did for all of us is is our federal representative And then, of course, sin.
Speaker: was passed down to his posterity. so There's also a... I don't want to get into this. i could you know We could look at other scriptures. There's a... There's a seminal dynamic there. But at the same time, it's it's mainly the fact that he's our representative. And so we're born spiritually dead.
Speaker: And well, if you're born spiritually dead, according to Augustine, you need baptism. That was his view because baptism. cleanses your guilt. Um, Saves, and as you were saying, we're not saved by baptism, but...
Speaker: Obviously, Augustine just disagreed. Then you've got the Council of Carthage in 418. You know that endorsed ah in Infant baptism, so...
Speaker: Really, from the 5th century onward, right throughout the Middle Ages. Up until the Reformation, the... The main standard, it wouldn't be the only, but the main the mainstream standard, we'll put it that way, became infant baptism.
Speaker: Um... Yeah. it It actually became legally mandated. you know mandated by law thing For a... a long long term and of course when you have the reformation And I don't want to skip too far ahead, but...
Speaker: Because there were groups. Let's hold off on the references. There were groups. Between the 5th century and the Reformation, The Reformation is... um what, 16th century, right? So there there were groups.
Speaker: Who still... practice believer's baptism throughout church history. It's not like the whole thing died out. And it's not like it was. Oh, just... here and there and almost nowhere. No, no, no.
Speaker: It was pretty prevalent. But because... The Roman Catholic Church did become the Roman Catholic Church in the that thousand -year period. Yeah. Excuse me.
Speaker: And. Because infant baptism was legally mandated, And there are all kinds of reasons for that. But the main and one of the main reasons was power and control. And we don't want to go down that. road too far.
Speaker: but You know, the the it's ecclesiology more than exegesis or theology. The idea that... Okay, well. If you're in a given. local or a given geographical region, you know, you're part of the church.
Speaker: If you're born here. You're Christian, and if you're... Christian, you got to be, you know, part of the church and the way you get into the church is through baptism. So we're going to baptize all the the infants of Christians.
Speaker: That's essentially... Click. a simple way of putting it. And so it's it's ecclesiology -driven. Church driven in the beginning, not necessarily. Well, I guess there's some theology behind it because, you know, gu knew you're dead and sin and all that.
Speaker: But, um... During the Reformation... I'm still trying to get ahead I don't need to. So I don't need to mention all of these groups. It's it's just.
Speaker: A number of groups, and what I was going to say is they were actually... A lot of them ah were persecuted by the church. This is the way it's been, unfortunately. Because of of their...
Speaker: you know, not only practice a believer's baptism, but... but their commitment to a believer's church, which is really the... the crux of it. So... Then you get to the Reformation.
Speaker: And. the mad what we'll call the Magisterial Reformers, and the main ones, of course, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli. You had reformers long before then, people we've heard of, people who are heroes.
Speaker: like Like the Waldensians. They practice believer's baptism. We don't talk about that in church history class. right Because we want to put them in a favorable light and all that. But you got the HUS site and...
Speaker: Wycliffe and you know all these people And basically what they were saying. what How they were going mainly against the Roman Catholic Church was that salvation is by grace or faith, not by a system of merit, system of works.
Speaker: And so... You know as well as I, you got Luther Calvinist Wingley coming along, 16th century. They're trying to reform. Catholic Church. does It doesn't really work out that way.
Speaker: And there's a lot of... ah fighting and and it's political, it's political. civil as well as ecclesia ah ecclesiastical And there was a time where.
Speaker: Luther and Calvin both. really advocated a believer's church, but they that because the church was... tied to geography for a thousand years, technically.
Speaker: They really couldn't see how to get all the people in the church. Excuse me. and so They jump back across the fence, so to speak. And went back to. practicing infant baptism to get people in the church. Yeah.
Speaker: And. That that's how that came about and then Calvin of course yeah You needed a theology because it wasn't yeah it had to be tied to to the Bible and theology and not just ecclesiology.
Speaker: particularly when you're trying to reform the church. And so this is where Calvin begins to come up with covenant theology. Covenant theology. It wasn't even full -blown like it is in in Westminster under Calvin. And very shortly thereafter, it was.
Speaker: And those who are like next generation or Calvin students and all that kind of developed it. but but But the beginnings of covenant theology, you might have had little... seeds of covenant theology here and there prior to that, but it's Calvin who kind of got the ball.
Speaker: Rolling in that direction, if that makes sense. so Anyway, I didn't mean to give. All of that, that's just not really. exactly on topic today, but I guess some... I just wanted to say. so Well, I guess part of what I was saying is.
Speaker: Even the magisterial reformers. and the Catholic Church. They too persecuted. other Christian groups. right in the 16th century for practicing Believers baptism.
Speaker: And... um Man, there's a whole history there we don't have time to get into. Yeah, yeah. And that's that's not really where're where we're going today. I guess... so Uh, you know, I could mention some of those groups, but I i don't.
Speaker: necessarily need to I mean some of them you know, the Mennonites and some of the Anabaptist groups. Some of the Anabaptist groups were wonderful. Some of them were... kind of out there, just to be honest with you. We know that. But at the same time.
Speaker: You know, when when you go on past... Some of the folk that are well -known. I guess you've got the English Baptist coming out of... in the 17th century in England. So that's...
Speaker: largely where our Baptist. roots lie there in England in the 17th century, although... You know. Believers' baptism has been practiced throughout church history. I'll put it that way. yeah So you can't just go back to the and say the church fathers all believed in infant baptism. That's just not true. That's our point. Now, we could stop there, and we could talk a little bit about...
Speaker: Believer's baptism. Sure. If you want to. Let me just riff a little bit. has to cause You know, one of our church members was already out of the car. The other one's still riding. Her podcast is over. Yeah, so we we covered that. Yeah. But one of them's still riding around. The other one's still getting started, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so.
Speaker: Should we talk, wade into arguments about believers' baptism, or should we just talk about the new covenant a little bit? I'll follow where you lead. And can I say this before? Yeah. So... there's There's a book.
Speaker: There are lots of books, but here's a book written by RBC Howe. Okay. famous he's not famous outside of baptist circles but he's famous within baptist circles Southern Baptist, I believe, but this is 1800s.
Speaker: and He wrote a book entitled. The evils of infant baptism. You know, that list they talked like that back then. And he he wasn't like some of these modern podcasters who were just trying to dunk on people. and They're kind of. Ugly. I mean, this is.
Speaker: If you listen. If you believe in covenant theology... Without being ugly, you would have to say that if we're not baptizing our children, that's an evil thing. And it wouldn't offend me, you know, because I know you're not trying to be, you're not personally attacking me. Yeah, yeah. You're attacking my doctrine. Yeah, and you're following your own to its logical conclusion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I personally.
Speaker: say that infant baptism is evil for lots and lots of reasons, but I'm not personally attacking my Presbyterian brothers. No. Methodist brothers or Lutheran brothers or whoever it might be.
Speaker: um I'm just attacking. or at least disagreeing with the doctrine. I'm not really trying to be an attack dog or anything. But um where was I going with that? Oh oh, the book! yes yes The evils of infamy. Yeah, yeah. So... so My, uh...
Speaker: My youngest daughter's husband. is baptist through and through then sharp is attacked and mean He really is. he's He's a fine preacher, too. yeah But... um when When he first came around.
Speaker: and And he was he raised Baptist, but he he had kind of gone down the Presbyterian road. Sure. Because he he was at a good, solid Presbyterian church in college. And I love that brother over there, the pastor over there. We have good fellowship. because Listen, we...
Speaker: We're in agreement with Presbyterians for most everything. yeah just not certain things related to the covenant. Of course, we're not dispensational, as we've said before. But ah when he came around, you got to know my wife.
Speaker: Sheesh. Brother. She's an RBC Howell fan. Yes. So she gets this book. Clearly embossed on the front, the evils of infant baptism. He's coming over.
Speaker: And she lays it on the coffee table. table And we're in there talking and it's just so funny the whole night. I know what she's thinking. I haven't even said this to her. This is a long time. They're married now. But yeah, I said that. my my youngest daughter's husband. So anyway, they're married now.
Speaker: But I know she's thinking, has he seen the book? has he seen the is henna call What he thinking? and so She just kinda... By the way. that hot that up Have you noticed what's on my face? I'm mid -sentence.
Speaker: It's just funny. It's just funny. so yeah But obviously the main reason. I mean what's the main reason? We practice. believer's baptism.
Speaker: Well, again, i I would say that it's because that's what we see laid out in the new testament sure I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. And be saved. Yeah. Believe and be baptized. Yes. um any of the calls that we see in the New Testament.
Speaker: to individuals to be saved. It's always believe. yeah and be baptized, yeah even when it says you and your household, yeah it's still the the full command is there, believe. Yes.
Speaker: Then be baptized and you'll be saved. Yeah, that's right. And that the baptism wasn't tied to the salvation, the belief. was the salvation. The baptism was the sign that the salvation had taken place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.
Speaker: And. um So I think what would be good, because you're 100 % and you've got the Great Commission. Mm -hmm. All authority in heaven. The earth has been given unto me, therefore go and make disciples of all the nations. Baptizing them. Yeah. yep But you've got to make them disciples first. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then baptize them. And then baptize them, right? Baptizing them and teaching and and all the rest. and So...
Speaker: Maybe we will do a little broadcast on um the theology behind it in addition to those things. And answer some common covenantal objections. When I say covenantal, I mean Westminster covenantalism. Not Baptist covenantalism.
Speaker: Here's Rick Covenantal. But the main reason, of course, is is our understanding of the covenants. As we've been saying lately. It affects everything. It does. Yeah. It really does. And when we go to Jeremiah 31. We go to Hebrews 8.
Speaker: Pretty clear that only... ah believers are in the new covenant. And the new covenant. That's why Hebrews refers to it as a better covenant, and it's based on better promises.
Speaker: And it has a better mediator, and the Lord Jesus. amen So. I guess so rather than try to cram that in, let's just let's just flesh that out on another. Another episode. Okay. Is that okay? Sure.
Speaker: You want to say anything? to Sign us out. no we'll say uh because we've discussed this before but um If anybody has any questions or oh yeah or would like to comment, please feel free to comment.
Speaker: On the YouTube video, if you're watching this on YouTube, please feel free to leave a comment. on on that video, but if you'd like to reach out to us. We do have an email address for the podcast. it's ah Randall House Pod.
Speaker: at gmail .com. um So please feel free to send any questions or comments you got to that email as well. And ah we'll be happy to take a look at them and and maybe even address some of them.
Speaker: On a future podcast. Yeah. We'd love to answer questions. Yeah. Alright. So thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time on. answering pilot answering pilot The Answering Pilot Podcast is a ministry of Randall House Church in Greer, South Carolina.
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Speaker: See you next time.
