Transcript
Speaker: Well, Dustin, good to see you again. Good to be back again. Yeah, and today we're going to be talking about ethno -nationalism. Okay, that's a big word. Yeah. It is. And obviously, ah it's a word that's... ah Part and parcel of the whole Christian nationalism.
Speaker: sure debate. I'll just use the word debate. In fact, we mentioned... um a a debate It was built as a debate. It really wasn't a debate, but it was a discussion. amongst the contributors to...
Speaker: The book that's recently come out, Five Views of Christian Nationalism. Okay. Thought the discussion was really good, really helpful. We talked about it. The only issue is they didn't really deal with.
Speaker: the The one area of christian nationalism. or the one version of Christian nationalism that... would cause the most eyebrows to raise, if we put it that way.
Speaker: And some people are really buying into it. Some people are rejecting it wholeheartedly. I think, you know to be fair, We love the conversation, number one. Yeah. But we also want to...
Speaker: Not misrepresent people, number two. so We don't want to just engage in in rhetoric, unfounded rhetoric, but also The things that some of the... And by the way, let me just say this. I'm referring to...
Speaker: Probably the. the The larger camp where... Coming from, let's just say, Stephen Wolfe's book, The Case for Christian Nationalism, which was put out by Canon Press, which... ah Doug Wilson is connected to that, and Doug Wilson and Stephen Wolfe have a little bit of a different view. Doug Wilson was one of those.
Speaker: contributors on the the five views of christian nationalism okay well you've got wolf's version So anyway. That's the one that's sort of... you know, cause most of the discussion. And so. We want to be part of that discussion.
Speaker: But at the same time, while not wanting to you know misrepresent anyone. Well, um... Yeah, all of that. we Also want to make sure. that when we say, because um we're going to have a little different view.
Speaker: then than say Stephen Wolfe. Sure. But it doesn't mean... that we don't share. A lot of his concerns. Yeah. and Yeah. Part of the reason why this is such a big discussion is...
Speaker: It is a big topic. And. The term Christian nationalism is kind of a... ah A big... catch -all type of term and a lot of people would have again like you said the same concerns We want...
Speaker: a Christian society. um right We believe that Christ rules over all nations. Yep. And so... in In a certain sense, there there are...
Speaker: ah lots of Christians who would be in favor. of what we would call a christian nation Christian nationalism. um But that can mean very different things. depending on where you're coming from. And it does mean very different things for different people.
Speaker: And so. One of the things that we're wanting to do is get to... a biblical understanding of of what that means. That's right. And how do we live out? Warning.
Speaker: a christian society wanting christ ruling over the nations. yeah How do we live that out biblically? That's right. Absolutely. And the other thing I want to do, since we've already put the term on the table, ethno -nationalism, I don't want to make it about personalities or people. right We just want to talk about ideas. and so That's where we're coming from. so But yeah, we share some of the same concerns.
Speaker: I'll save some of those for another time because I think we're going to be talking about these things for a long time, whether we want to or not. ah We've been talking about them for a long time. Whether people wanted us to or not. yeah Exactly. Exactly right. so um Well, ethno -nationalism. I don't have an academic definition. I'm just going to give you the 50 cent definition. ah I think. um It's the idea that a nation...
Speaker: is comprised of a particular culture, course, a particular history. particular values, particular... yeah You know, what's the word? I mean, that's it essentially. Yet they would go on to say.
Speaker: You've got... A particular... They wouldn't use the term race, I don't think, but a particular ethnicity. Yeah, absolutely. because After all, an ethnic group. It is a group that shares a history and values.
Speaker: things of that nature certain cultural goods we'll use that term and so They're arguing for that, and and they're arguing for that. ethnic component. to extend to i don't know how else to say it i'll tell you why i'm having trouble extend a race. And so there's almost this.
Speaker: you know We want this nation to be comprised of... Christians. and essentially Anglo -Saxon. Well, right there, you're you're getting into, okay, coming from...
Speaker: Europe essentially, but... et cetera, but you know, it's almost like. White. and And again, I know there are some. who are certainly white supremacists, but The folk that we're talking about, i'm I'm not putting the label white supremacists on them. um I don't... they You know, when we're just in a... interacting with this. I'm just saying.
Speaker: That, um... they'll interact with a lot of folk who are white supremacists. and so You know, you got to be careful there. I don't i don't think it's. Well, it's it's I don't mind acting. interacting with the white supremacists. As long as I draw the line very clearly, that's not where I'm at. But the reason the the race issue is so hard.
Speaker: is because, um... you know you've got some folks saying, well, There's no such thing as racism. Okay, there is, but I know what they mean by that. And part of the reason they'll say that is is just to be provocative.
Speaker: you know We're going to say what we want from now on. And again. so On the one hand, I don't want to be. we did a whole episode on this i don't want to be cowed as it were ah because of political correctness or, you know, the the speech police. I want to be able to say what I want to say. And I think as Christians, we should.
Speaker: But with as Christians, everything has to be. And what we say has to be rightly motivated, has to be said with wisdom. you know We speak the truth, but we speak it in love. Love sometimes means saying very hard things.
Speaker: It doesn't mean just being nice. Right. We agree with all that. and i'm um See, I'm falling all over myself to try to. Make sure nobody's misunderstanding me, which is part of the culture we're in. And and there's a sense in which sometimes you just have to come out and say it. You just have to say it.
Speaker: yeah you know Which is what a lot of yeah particular people are pushing back against. Right. Again, we kind of. We've kind of hashed this out in an earlier episode. But... We do want our speech to be.
Speaker: Censored. Not. Bye. what the society tells us we can and can't say, or the culture tells us we can. Right. You can't say woke mob, but we want. We want it to be censored.
Speaker: Bye. How we are informed by God's word. Yes. And so. Yeah, we don't. Which again, we've talked about this before, but we don't want freedom of speech just so I can just say whatever I want to.
Speaker: So I can be offensive and I can be provocative. Right. But I do want freedom of speech to where I can say. The truth. without fear. Of being canceled because yeah someone views it as offensive or provocative. That's right. That's right.
Speaker: And the whole, just to tie a knot on that other you know the the string there, the whole racism issue. What the folk I'm referring to mean and by that, and I i agree. is that... um Racism.
Speaker: has a particular definition, if you're going to use that word. And. It'd be better just to use the definition rather than the word in light of our current context. But nevertheless. It means you you hate another group of people because of the color of their skin. Or you want to mistreat another group of people because of the color of their skin or their nationality or whatever. That'd be.
Speaker: That'd be a sinful nationalism. So a sinful racism or sinful nationalism. What we're pushing back on or what they're pushing back on is. There's so many things today. If you say them,
Speaker: You're called a racist, even though you're not being a racist. Right. So what we object to is the changing definition. Yes. Don't move the goalposts. That's right. Exactly. If I say that...
Speaker: inner city black culture. ah you know urban inner city black culture with the gang bangers and the drug lords and the The kids selling drugs and kids getting shot in the street.
Speaker: If I say that culture. is inferior. Two. you know, Christian culture Well, I will say that. and But a lot of people accuse me of being racist, but that's not racist. I'm not saying I hate those people. No. That are in that.
Speaker: situation. I want to rescue those people with the gospel. Yeah, and and it's inferior inferiority. That's a hard word to... Just spit out there. right Its inferiority is not rooted in the fact that it's black. culture Right.
Speaker: It just so happens. that type of culture. has taken root. and greatly negatively affected the black community. yeah um And so, and that's, and that's why.
Speaker: That's why we want to push back against. that particular type of culture is not because it has to do with black people, but because it's negatively affected. right black people for example that's right um and we we want to establish culture. That's going to lift others up and yeah and and help others. and Ultimately,
Speaker: provide opportunity for the gospel. Absolutely. That's it. Perfect. All right, so ethno -nationalism. It's the idea that that our nation... should be comprised of a particular ethnic group that's going to automatically you know, they're saying things like,
Speaker: yeah You know. Again, i'm um I'm not trying to be provocative, but you know I'm tired of seeing. We'll just use the term brown people, or I'm tired of seeing people wearing.
Speaker: you know, certain cultural Yeah. um you know, garb garb thank you that that's not american or whatever the case may be And again.
Speaker: The concern with... the Mass migration in a very short period of time. and how that changes the values of a culture. All right. That's a legitimate concern. And so if that's all you're saying, fine. But the way you're saying it.
Speaker: It sounds like... you just hate people who have brown skin or you hate people who aren't Americans right who don't look and act like Americans. And especially in a culture that is hypersensitive.
Speaker: to that. Anything that you say that remotely comes close to touching that line. is going to... come across that way yeah and and it's going to make people gasp. yeah that's right and that you would say such a thing Even if... you may not mean it that way. That is how it's going to come across. And again,
Speaker: We don't want to worry about what people think. But we... Dude. I want to. in as much as we want We don't want it to be an impediment to an open door for us to be able to speak truth. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker: Okay, so... So now what we're trying to do now, we got that out of the way. Hopefully I'm again, stumble all over myself. Sorry about that. But. What we're trying to do is... interact.
Speaker: academically, to a certain degree, biblically, theologically, exegetically. sure That's what we're trying to do, have an intelligent conversation. And like I say, there'll there'll be more conversations to come.
Speaker: But. So what we're interacting with is not the... the provocative nature of certain statements by certain people. We're we're trying to interact with ideas. and so The ethno -nationalist, Christian ethno -nationalist that I'm referring to, that we're referring to.
Speaker: They have some biblical texts that they that they cite in support of their position. Sure. So I want to put those out there. And then we'll talk about whether or not we think they're handling them the way they ought to be handling them. you know Are they rightly dividing the word of truth? Yeah. um And that's what.
Speaker: You know, the debate is always our theology, isn't it, and our exegesis. um One of the texts they use, of course, they'll start with... ah The Tower of Babel. Okay. And obviously in Genesis 11,
Speaker: You know, you've got the Lord dispersing. ah You know, you got these people trying to build the tower up to heaven, pride and all that. I want to be as God, just like Adam. And so God disperses them and confuses their language.
Speaker: I didn't go back and read the entire text before we. you know, went on camera today. so It's not our business to give the whole detail, but I think everybody's for familiar with the Tower of the Bible. and so their Their argument from that particular text is that God...
Speaker: purposefully spread out people, gave them different cultures, gave them different languages, et etc cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I think at one level, I mean, that's certainly true. It is true, yeah. Yeah, it happened. But the question then is, is that God's you know norm for all time? Does that mean that...
Speaker: Christians should want to... you know, just What's the word? Just kind of huddle in our own little. Ethnic. Country, community, and... and you know We don't want anybody else in here, et cetera, et cetera. Again, when you can get out in the weeds when you start trying to.
Speaker: you know, elaborate on that, but I think the answer biblically is that On the one hand, you could say the gospel breaks down all barriers, and we're going to come back to that. But what happened?
Speaker: In Acts chapter 2. I mean you know what happened. You had a reversal. Yeah. Of of Babel. because the disciples were gathered and and all of these. People were gathered from all different nations.
Speaker: all different nationalities, all different languages. And, um... You know, we see Pentecost. Take place. And they start. preaching the gospel. yeah And all these people from all these different nations.
Speaker: who speak different languages yeah all of a sudden can hear the gospel. in their own language yeah um miraculously yeah you know by by the the work of the Holy Spirit. And so, yeah, it is.
Speaker: a great picture because Go back to Genesis 11. What was the purpose? Of. this dispersion that took place. It was not a good thing, right? it was It was a curse. It was a curse, yeah. Because the people were rebelling against God. That's right. Like you said, they... The same thing as Adam.
Speaker: they They thought that they could reach heaven, literally. And this was a punishment. for that rebellion was this dispersion. Yeah. so You know, even just to even just to take just that in itself.
Speaker: That. And viewing that as what it was, which was actually a punishment. It means that that... I don't think that necessarily means that that's a good thing. right right And I'm not saying that it's not.
Speaker: a good thing to have nations and to have individual cultures, but that it should be. Completely spread out, and like you said, never in the twain shall meet. Right. I don't think that you can take from Genesis 11 that that's a good thing. yeah And then when we fast forward to Acts 2.
Speaker: and we see what happens at pentecost then we see that barrier is being broken down. ah by the gospel, by the Holy Spirit himself. And now all of these people are being united.
Speaker: under the gospel. and then they're being sent out but now they're being sent out to take the gospel not to enclave themselves and separate themselves from everyone.
Speaker: but to now take the gospel out so it can unite. All peoples. That's right. We, and again, and you, you made this point in part of what you're saying. We're not for open borders. We're not you know for porous borders. We're not for globalism. or anything like that. There's nothing wrong at this point with having...
Speaker: different nations and different cultures. But again, you can't take from Genesis 11, the judgment that was going on there and then say, this is a law of God. That. yeah you know every nation has to stick where they are you know that kind of thing so Yeah, there's this great reversal. at Pentecost. And the other thing I would say,
Speaker: Real quick. And I'm sure you would want to elaborate as well. We often make a distinction. Between the old and the new covenants. Yes. And we make a distinction between.
Speaker: what was happening in the old testament versus what is happening Since the New Testament. Yes. And there are a lot of reasons and a lot of implications, and it affects everything, you believe. We've said that many, many times.
Speaker: But just by way of illustration, And with reference to. the Tower of Babel. The Israelites, you know on the one hand, they were to be a light to the nations. They failed. That's one of the reasons that God judged them.
Speaker: But on the other hand. There were often times when... You know, for example, when God gave Israel the promised land. They were told to go into the land. and basically kill all the inhabitants of the land, all the ites, the Canaanites and all the other. And Jebusites. And Jebusites, yeah. Mosquito bites. Right, that were in there.
Speaker: And so. I don't know of any theologian today. who would say... Number one. Okay, so it is the role of the church. Well, I know people who've said this, but anyway, I don't know of any theologian today who would say, number one, it's the role of the church.
Speaker: to go in and militarily wipe out nations because they're pagan nations. right right That's not it. nor would they say, number two, that it's the role of the country we live in. And of course, we live in the United States. They would not say it's the role of the United States to go wipe out Pagan Nation. And so...
Speaker: They would say that, yes, God is. Subduing the nations. what, Psalm 2, for example, Daniel 2, for example, um but he's primarily subduing the nations.
Speaker: through the gospel. And then the gospel is going global. That's the whole point of. The preparatory phase of the Old Testament and all the types and all the shadows and Israel. yeah you know, being the old covenant earthly people of God.
Speaker: being a type and a figure of the... the true people of God. the spiritual people of god the heavenly people of god on the earth got to make that clear because everybody You know, you use certain terminology. That's the problem. That's why you have to stumble all over yourself sometimes. What do I mean by that?
Speaker: But... to But the gospel... ah The church is the true people of God and the gospel is spreading all all over the world. And it is. foretold. in the Old Testament even, and we we may touch on this a little bit more in in a little bit, but...
Speaker: It is foretold that the nation's would come to him, right? Yeah. in the Old Testament. Yeah. um And so, yeah. So again, this is. was always part of the plan.
Speaker: This is kind of ridiculous, but I just. The thought had just popped in my head, you know, with... If we're going to say the Tower of Babel. and then this dispersion that takes place which was a punishment it was a curse Because of sin.
Speaker: If we're going to say that that. is then therefore a model for How? Things should be. then could we also say that we... shouldn't garden anymore because adam and eve got kicked out of the garden as part of their punishment right right yeah um sure so yeah obviously no one would say that right no that's right So yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. And as far as ah again, to just come back to the issue of open borders and globalism and all that. Again, we we can make a biblical argument. against those things. um We're going to talk, by the way.
Speaker: ah In a future broadcast, we'll come back to the issue of immigration. and We don't want to get bogged down today, but... We're going to talk about how... Immigration has been paused in the United States many, many times. And it really It hasn't been it hasn't been the way it is now, ever.
Speaker: But, uh... ah We've paused it many, many times for very good reasons. the The chief reason would be assimilation, the the time necessary. Fur. a certain number of people to come in and assimilate. What do you mean by assimilation?
Speaker: to make sure that they, this is part of, we're getting off subject now, sorry, but this is part of I mean, it's part of the conversation. but to make sure that folk who want to come here and live here and be citizens here.
Speaker: Yes, they have to buy into. uh our values they have to buy into our our way of life, our form of government. the things that that america is built on if they're not willing to assimilate then you don't get to be a citizen and um If you have mass migration.
Speaker: rapidly It you? You can't help but affect the system. And so that's a whole other discussion we'll get into. But my point is. That we've paused immigration many, many times throughout our history in order to avoid that dynamic. But now, all of a sudden, it's anathema. So this is so i I just want.
Speaker: those who aren't familiar with the conversation to start thinking about those issues. Yeah. Those who are familiar with the conversation. Don't hear us saying that we're, you know, globalists because we're not so.
Speaker: Yeah, once again, we do want to affirm that. It is a good thing to preserve culture. um In as much. As that. Culture.
Speaker: is... Biblical. What lines up with a Christian worldview. Yeah. So the reason that we want to protect. culture that we may have been raised in. The parts that we want to protect are the parts that line up with...
Speaker: a biblical worldview a christian worldview right But. Simply. Again. to stumble over ourselves, just to say it. white culture. is not worse preserving because it's white. There you go. And only the parts of that culture that line up with a biblical worldview are worth preserving.
Speaker: Yes. And so That's the type of culture that we want to preserve. so If people want to come in from other countries and... They want to. bring in different food or you know oh yeah different things like that we got no problem i mean please do all people that that one um That want to have other cultures' food, yeah we've got Exhibit A yeah sitting right here to my left. Yes, yes.
Speaker: But. It's not that that anything about another culture. Isn't. is automatically bad and and can't be brought in. yeah and mixed in with our culture. But we don't want to mix in the parts that are counter to a biblical worldview. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: And if I could say one more thing, and you might want to say one more thing too, that's fine. I'm just saying. I recognize I'm getting... Me, I'm getting off topic. But if I take us there, you can you can roll with it or you can bring us back. I don't care.
Speaker: but I do want to talk about in a future a future episode. But. If you start... You know, listening to the rtic ah rhetoric of the ethno -nationalist. And let's just say that's that's a large part of what you listen to or read.
Speaker: And you start buying into some of that. And all of a sudden... you Indians around you, you see. who like could Chinese folk, you know, Japanese folk.
Speaker: you start looking at them differently than you did before. And I mean, that's an evil. That is an evil as far as the gospel is concerned. right Because I'm here to tell you. I was raised in in the South.
Speaker: Southern United States. I was born in 1964. So I remember a lot of stuff. And, of course, I was raised in a Christian home, so we're taught to love our neighbor, praise the Lord, and all that.
Speaker: And so... I... And i didn't I didn't actually come to know the Lord until I was 22, although I thought I was saved. I just didn't know any better. But. the more i've studied the scriptures and the more i've saturated my mind with the gospel And understand.
Speaker: You know, what Paul says in Ephesians 3, for example, He says the multifaceted wisdom of God. is on display. by the church. And of course, If you just read that surface and you think of.
Speaker: A lot of people that think, okay, sure, because we're spreading the gospel by the church. Alright. That's true. sure I'm sure that's part of what he's saying. But I think what he's really saying is.
Speaker: That the church is different from the world because the world Raises up barriers between. peoples. nations, races, ethnic groups, however you want to put it.
Speaker: Men and women. Black and white, Jew and Gentile. Um, Yeah, whatever American and Russian you know for a long time when I was growing up. Yeah. And. um The point I'm making is...
Speaker: the the the very existence of the church. which is this international community. of every tribe and every people from every tribe and tongue and nation and language. That puts...
Speaker: the the multi The multifaceted wisdom of God on display. And it's a glorious thing. And so when I see... Indians, even dressed in their...
Speaker: cultural garb, to use that terminology, and I know they're Christians especially, I'm i'm just i'm just rejoicing. It it just brings... Joy to my heart. And um I've worshipped. a with internet international believers in many contexts. and um it's a wonderful wonderful thing And I got to go to, man, we're really getting off track. I'm so sorry. did I remember i got I got to go to Russia. in 1998.
Speaker: I think I mentioned this before. And I stayed with a couple of Russian brothers. Oh the fellowship that we had. I mean it's no different. Was their language different? Yeah. Was their culture different? Background? The human experience? Everything was different, but we had...
Speaker: It was like we'd known each other all our lives. Because we have the same God, the same gospel, the same Bible. And that's just, ah to me, it's a glorious thing. and so To me, when you start looking at people differently now.
Speaker: You're losing something of the gospel is what I'm trying to say. so I kind of got off field there. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, off topic. It's not on topic, but it's out in the field. so Yeah. yeah Well, and again, you know the it's not the direct application, but...
Speaker: You know, we're told that God doesn't look on the outward appearance. He looks on the heart, right? Yeah. And so if, but if we start to judge others. by just what we could strictly can see their outward appearance um then...
Speaker: Yeah, we're we're falling into sin there. Yeah. um and And that's not the message of the gospel. yeah The gospel says that there is no Jew or Gentile. There is no male or female. There is no slave or free. Yeah. um it It unites all of us. Yeah.
Speaker: All right. We'll talk more about that on a future broadcast. Let's let's move on to a different text. ahem This one's similar. Not exactly, but similar. Deuteronomy 32 .8 um the division of nations, when the Most High, that's God,
Speaker: gave to the nations their inheritance when he divided mankind. He fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. So they go to that text and it says, see, therefore.
Speaker: and God has fixed the borders of the peoples. And again, you. If we're going to... Not. maintain those borders in the way they say. ethnically speaking.
Speaker: then we're sinning against God. And i I say, well, again, you got to go back and look at the context. in context, is king. It's always king, right? yeah This is basically the song of Moses.
Speaker: And essentially... um What's going on there? he's tu got ah God is talking about how... People are wicked. You know, Israel has been wicked. And certainly the the nations are wicked didn't it at that. point I mean, the nations is a reference to people groups who don't know the Lord. in and the biblical context there.
Speaker: But God... has made Israel. the apple of his eye he set his love upon him that's divine sovereign election it's not because they were better no than the nations around them it's bad exactly and the bible says that explicitly. I mean, the Lord says it's not because you.
Speaker: It's because of my glory that I chose you. Because how many times does he call Israel a harlot? Yeah. That's right. That's right. Bye. you know the picture of Hosea. um He...
Speaker: buys her back. That's right. But yeah. And again, it's not because of any type of ethnicity or anything like that. um It's because he chose to set his love. upon them yeah And if you think about that, you know that's true because we're definite'tant we are a We're of a different ethnic group, ethnicity.
Speaker: the Israelites of the Old Testament, and then God was taking the gospel to the nations. But that's just the whole point that he... He set Israel in the midst of the nations, and Israel wasn't doing what they were supposed to be doing. That was part of the the issue there. and so it's not really A commentary on.
Speaker: God's fixed ordained way of looking at modern nation states or. Modern ethnic groups or whatever the case may be. Right. Yeah. Again, it was a particular purpose for a particular time. Yes. And part of that particular purpose was to preserve.
Speaker: A people? um Not because of their skin color or their ethnicity. but to preserve a people. That would... preserve his word. Yeah. which again, they failed in many ways to do that.
Speaker: But he did continually speak his word to them. He didn't speak his word to the pagan nations. none Right. none of He revealed his word. to them yeah so that it would be preserved yeah and so that ultimately... That's right. The Messiah would come through that line. And we would know who the Messiah was because of his word that was revealed right through this nation. And so again, there was this preservation that was taking place.
Speaker: And that was that purpose. so that the Christ could then come and tear down the barrier. That's right. That's right. because Side issue, and you just hit it. is uh There's no human solution to the barriers that people set up between us. That's why we're at war all the time. but There is a solution, and it's the gospel. It's the only solution. It's Christ himself, as you said. Yeah, um and because, too, if if you think about it, if you're saying that in Deuteronomy,
Speaker: God set the borders. I don't think any of those borders are still being honored today. thousands of years later. Right, right. I mean... How many Western Europeans were... on this continent where we are now. Yeah. On the book of Deuteronomy.
Speaker: took place. And so are, have we violated borders? yeah by By being here and being descended from Western Europeans? Yeah, yeah. Good question. you know I mean, yeah. About all the folk that came to America. But anyway. Yeah. So at what point?
Speaker: does Do those borders become binding? Yeah, exactly. Good question. you know If you believe this. No, that's a good question. And so. Before we move on quickly, just appreciate what you said. Absolutely. The preservation dynamic.
Speaker: And then by way of reminder, again, You know, you've got the nations of the earth. God set them there when he did. And he plucked Israel out. Divine, sovereign grace. Yeah. Love. He said his love. That's the only way that any of us can be.
Speaker: saved as if God sets his love on us because we're right we're all sinners. We're all guilty. yeah So that was really part of the point there too. Because again, just like Babel. Really, this is, it's a punishment.
Speaker: or it's established. As a result of... People sin. um Because like you said, there's no human. solution that can unite us. and so this division of nations that we see taking place in Deuteronomy. again, is a result of...
Speaker: human humankind's sin yeah and and then again that gospel picture of plucking of people out yeah and preserving that people. But... We have to have all of these.
Speaker: divisions. because of sin yeah yeah and so that again we're going to keep saying this over and over again yes but that's what that's the point of the gospel is that gospel The gospel deals with sin. That's right. Christ himself deals with sin. Yeah. And then that is what.
Speaker: allows us to be united and and no longer need for that division. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. All right, so... um You said something else that was very interesting. I just wanted to...
Speaker: elaborate on, but I bet I won't. We'll do it another time. Okay. Can I do a side issue again, though? One more side issue. And that's the issue of ah hermeneutics. Hermeneutics, so i'm I'm sure most folk are aware, but if not...
Speaker: It's the art and science of biblical interpretation. How do we understand the Bible? And I think most people realize. Maybe they don't, because a lot of people, they'll read a verse.
Speaker: And they'll make it say something it doesn't even say. It doesn't mean because they're ripping it right out of context. Yeah. We love to talk about Philippians 4 .13. I can do all things. Which means I can go and bench press 500 pounds right now. Right. Yeah. That's not what that verse means. and Not at all. Exactly. so I do think a lot of folk are ignorant on that, sadly.
Speaker: But anyway, hermeneutics. yeah You know... It's... um How do you interpret Scripture? therere There are hermeneutical laws. And one of those laws is you can't rip something out of context. You can't take me out of context if you do. And this is why we're so careful at the top of the broadcast. Yes. Okay, when... so-and-s So -and -so says, there's no such thing as racism.
Speaker: All right, you shouldn't have said it that way. But I don't want to be guilty of taking you out of context. I know what you mean. I agree with what you're saying. I just wouldn't have said it that way. Yeah. That's all. And in our time and in our.
Speaker: society and in our culture. that happens all the time right i mean my words your words can get ripped out of context. yeah um It would be probably pretty easy for somebody to come along on this episode.
Speaker: and and yeah And with the right editing tools. clip it together. to make it sound like we might be saying something that we're not saying at all that's right and so We don't want that to happen to our words.
Speaker: We definitely don't want to do that to God's Word. Yeah, that's exactly right. And then the last thing I'll say about that is. There are different genres in the Bible. You know as well as I. Yes. You've got...
Speaker: wisdom literature, apocalyptic literature. right You interpret those very differently because they both have their own, you know, just like we. We... You can't interpret poetry.
Speaker: The same way you would interpret a novel, right? So. You got all that. You've got... theological biography, which is... sort of how we might describe the gospels you've got epistolary literature paul's letters and right Peter's letters and John's letters, et cetera.
Speaker: You've also got narrative. You've got wisdom literature but you've got narrative and you can't Build a theology. right out of a narrative section of Scripture. Unless, you know, within the narrative it says, I'm laying down a law for all people in all places at all times. Right, right.
Speaker: So you got to be real careful when doing narrative because there's lots of things. said in narrative, that aren't meant to be didactic. Uh... Let's just put didactic statements per se. like When Paul says, ah There should be no f flesh justified by the law.
Speaker: That's a didactic statement. It's a teaching statement. It's a propositional statement. And not every... statement in a narrative is a propositional statement no narrative describes what happened yeah not what should have happened. yeah or that it or or prescribes it right it describes it yeah and so Yeah, we can't. build a theology on simply the fact that something happened and it was recorded. yeah You know, that some may try to argue that.
Speaker: Oligomy is biblical. Because... It's in scripture. Right. We see that it happened. Right. But. because it's described as happening. doesn't mean that it's prescribed.
Speaker: as as good and right and biblical. Exactly. Yeah that's a great illustration. All right, so... Another verse? Yeah. Yeah, I want to hit a couple of others that they use.
Speaker: And again, these first three, the Tower of the Bible and then the the nations there in Deuteronomy 32. Very closely related. Well, also Acts 17, 26. Okay. So here's what it says. And he made from one man or one blood.
Speaker: every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth. having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place. and they you know They'll stop there. Alright. Again.
Speaker: A narrative. and And Paul is actually preaching to... the The Greek philosophers there up on the Areopagus, Mars Hill. Mm -hmm. And. um Essentially, you know the background, the context. You got all these.
Speaker: idols and all these monuments and he and he noticed one. you know, To the unknown God. To the unknown God. Thank you. Inscribe that way. And so he says, that this God that...
Speaker: You don't know. I want to proclaim him to you. So he starts to say. yeah He's the creator of the universe. remember these are not jews these are greek philosophers if it was just the jews he'd probably quote something out of the old testament right right right But he's trying to explain. He's the creator of the universe. And then he's making a connection with these Greek philosophers. He says, look.
Speaker: Some of your own poets have said the same thing. We are his offspring. and ah Trying to. yeah You know, get them to see, okay, well, I'm going to tell you who this creator God is. And there's only one God. Right. and um So he says,
Speaker: He's basically saying. You're wor - First off, you're worshiping God the wrong way. You don't worship him. with men's hands. He's not confined to a ah temple or anything like that, like you suppose.
Speaker: He doesn't need anything right from you. you know, and offering all this stuff. And so again, he's just sort of dismantling they're He's making a connection. Yes, there's only one God.
Speaker: He is real. but he's dismantling their mistaken notions about who this God is. right And this God is sovereign. And this God has created you and he's created nations and he's put them on the earth.
Speaker: And then... He gives the purpose. Because what our... you know, the ethno -nationalists are doing is they cut that They cut the sentence off right there at the end of that little phrase. Yeah, it's interesting. was you and When you put it in our notes here, there's the ellipses at the end, yeah which, you know, obviously means there's more. There's more to come. That's right.
Speaker: And so what... What? comes after that is so that they might believe, so that they might seek him, so if perhaps they should find him. They're groping in the dark, but... The whole purpose is...
Speaker: is is that God has created. ah these nations so that ultimately they might believe. And and he's basically just echoing. Pentecost, as you alluded to earlier, and the gospel and the church and all that, everything we've been saying so.
Speaker: Again, not a text where Paul's teaching on... Okay. We've got to make sure that everybody stays in their... And their borders. Their particular border. yeah so Anyway, that since we've said all that we've said thus far.
Speaker: We don't have to elaborate too much on that one. okay Just got to know how to handle scripture. Then the last one. 1 Timothy 5 .8, for example. If any anyone does not provide for his relatives and especially for members of his household,
Speaker: He has denied the faith. Um, You go to Romans 3. I'm sorry, Romans 9, 3. Paul expressing a deep love for his kinsmen according to the flesh.
Speaker: All right. Well, again, Romans 9, Paul is lamenting. that the Jews had the... um The promises and they had the covenants. And and they rejected it. and Yeah. That's it. And so.
Speaker: He's just lamenting that that he wishes that they would come to Christ. He's trying to explain. And he's not saying that he wishes the Jews would come to Christ instead of the Gentiles. He's saying, listen, the gospel is going forth to the Gentiles now. Yeah. And.
Speaker: I... Have a deep burden. for my people that that I came from, that I physically came from. I have a deep burden for them to also get the gospel. Yes. it's He's saying, I want.
Speaker: I want you to be part of this olive tree that's grafted together, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, he's not saying it to the exclusion of the Gentiles. He's wanting he's warninging that. that That union. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: And he he goes on to say yeah he's he's making arguments as to how, you know, the promises of God are fulfilled and all that because they don't understand that. and Gospel going to the nations, as we've already alluded to.
Speaker: And. He's a Jew. and he saved and There's a remnant of Jews being saved, but he says... But the the gospel is going to the... to the nations.
Speaker: And he actually quotes Old Testament. language specifically applied to old covenant Israel, he now applies it. to the church, to the Gentile. church at this point. Word it is said, ah they're not my people. They should be called my people. That's right out of Hosea. Right. and And he's now applying it to the Gentiles. And so he's saying.
Speaker: um Yes, the guys are going to the to the Gentiles. But you need to come. to Jesus. as the messiah so that You can ex - experience the blessings. of the promises that were made to you. Just just like you said.
Speaker: And. um Essentially... He just desires. He says a little bit later. That the Gentiles. will provoke the Jews to jealousy. and then Even later, and it might be in a different context, but I'm pretty sure it's Romans 11, you know, 9, 10, 11 are all dealing with.
Speaker: the jewish question what about the jews because they're not And I'm being saved in mass at the moment. Has God forsaken them? And the point is, well, no, but you've got to understand how the promises are fulfilled. They're fulfilled in this international community comprised of Jew and Gentile. Where?
Speaker: In Christ. Right, right. Excuse me. And so he says, That God has... concluded them all under sin, Jew and Gentile, that he might be merciful to all.
Speaker: Jew and Gentile. that you might have this one new body. And that's when he goes into this. phrase. ah who can know the mind of the Lord and how wonderful are his ways, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: Yeah, and and again, his greater motivation for... wanting to see Israel, to see the Jews. saved in mass. Would be because, I mean, yes, it's...
Speaker: It's his ethnic people. And because of that. That's how he... Knew the Word of God to begin with. even before he was saved, right? um Because he was raised in the Jewish tradition, so he knew.
Speaker: He knew the word of God. It hadn't taken root in his heart yet. until Christ appeared to him. Yeah. But. um And so he's also. acknowledging and recognizing what we talked about earlier.
Speaker: the fact that This word of God was preserved through the people of Israel all throughout the Old Testament. Right. until the coming of christ And so.
Speaker: He's looking at it from Man, I really want them to get it because They're the ones that have had the word of God all along yeah and they've missed it. And I want them to get it, yeah you know, and that's why he's so greatly burdened for them. yeah Yeah. So what they do, of course, because I, man, we just love talking about the gospel. Yeah, we do. Yeah.
Speaker: So. They use that verse and then the whole Timothy verse, if you don't care for your family, you're, you know, you denied the faith. yeah They're appealing to what? theologians. ah For a long, long time, even Augustine, for example, you know, the Ordo Amoris, the Order of love order of Loves.
Speaker: And. you know basically I can say. I love all people. But I love my family in a unique way. Sure. I love my wife.
Speaker: differently. than all other. women Sure. And I love my kids. I love kids, man. I coach. Part -time, and but I love my kids in a different way. So do you. Yes. And so we all understand that because I love my mama because she's my mama.
Speaker: Well, they're trying to extrapolate from that. Okay, well, we've got to love, and and what Paul said, we've got to love our own people. We love Americans more than the Japanese. We love the Americans more than the Germans. And we love Americans more than...
Speaker: Whoever, the British or the French. You know... If any of those groups or any of those people or any nations come. And try to invade us. and And, you know, they got the guns blazing and the bombs dropping them. Yeah, we can defend our homeland.
Speaker: But at the same time... You know, to to derive from that. what the ethno -nationalists are trying to say. No, we've got to love our own people. Why can't we love our why can't we have our people? The Japanese.
Speaker: If you go to Japan, then you'd have heard him say. You could live there, maybe they could let you live there, and you could say you're going to follow their rules, but you're never going to be Japanese. Okay. Well, so what? We can debate that, but so what?
Speaker: And so they say, well, If you want to come here. Why shouldn't we just automatically recognize? you'll never be Anglo -Saxon. Or you'll never be. it In some cases, white Protestant. i'd been Again, we're not trying to interact with those folk. We're trying to interact at an academic level. but i mean they're part of that conversation unfortunately But what?
Speaker: You know, they're trying to say we should love. Some of them have even said, let me put it this way. Some of them have even said we should love. Our American, our heritage American, that's the term that's being used.
Speaker: Our heritage American next door neighbor who's not saved, who's a pagan. We should love him more. than the Christian from India. And that's that just flies in the face of Scripture. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: In fact, if you're going to use the ordo amoris for anything. I love my Christian brothers and sisters. More than I love my American pagan neighbor. yeah and That's a fact. Now, does that mean I'm going to mistreat my American pagan neighbor? No. Does that mean I don't love him? No.
Speaker: It's the same way that I love. My children. more than all other children, but I still love all children. And so I'm going to love all people. Yeah, and I mean, well, obviously... We did, what, five episodes on America First? Yeah. You know, and so...
Speaker: Again. This is scripture. yeah And there's a principle here. Yeah. And we do. want to care for. Our immediate family, first of all. First we want to care for our Community. First,
Speaker: We want to care for our nation first. but not to the exclusion. of everyone else yeah And so, yes, we do want. We do want what's best for America, for example. We do we are America first yeah in that sense.
Speaker: but That doesn't mean to the exclusion of... showing love and wanting good things. for other cultures in other countries as well. yeah Yeah.
Speaker: No, that's right. So I think. um On the one hand, Maybe that's a good place to stop. Okay. Unless you want to say something out. The only reason is all we all we've done so far in all our conversation today.
Speaker: is talk about those scriptures that the ethno -nationalists use. And we've pushed back on that, I think, in a biblical way. But there's a lot more to say. There's a lot of theological issues on the table.
Speaker: And I'd love to discuss those, but that's going to take time. so mm -hmm Obviously, we won't come back and deal with that in a future broadcast. Okay. And then I think. you know i mentioned immigration we want to talk a little bit more about that And why? a pause on immigration right now would be a good thing. And we want to elaborate on that because we want to root everything we say in Scripture. We don't want to just score political points with this group or that group.
Speaker: And I do want to talk more about. there's There's a whole host of theological dynamics that... I think, are being... ignored or misconstrued. with ethno -nationalism. So I just want, we just need some time to talk about that. I'm i'm more talking to the folk who are listening to us than you. You you agree with this. And so.
Speaker: These are the things that we've talked about before. so Unless you want to deal with something before we go out. I'm going to say let's just end it there today. Yeah, I think we can wrap it up here, and we'll we'll come back and do a part two. Yeah, yeah. It may or may not be the next broadcast, but there will be. Wyvern should probably get like two or three.
Speaker: threads already. We're going to talk about baptism again. Yeah. yeah We're going to talk about... Civil government again. Which is part of this discussion, too. Sure, sure, yeah. and And then other issues that - that folk are bringing up that we that that are part of this discussion. What's wrong with our culture?
Speaker: What do we do about it? How do we deal with certain things that. That man are just so destructive. And. ah Anyway. We'll talk about all those things. Okay. All right. Sounds good. All right. Sounds good. though Let's do it again next time.
Speaker: on Answering Pilot.
Speaker: The Answering Pilot Podcast is a ministry of Randall House Church in Greer, South Carolina. You can learn more RandallHouseBeer .com slash church. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at at Randall House Church. Don't forget to like and subscribe.
Speaker: and we'll see you next time.
