Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 5: Learning to Be a Better Listener and Why it Matters
120 Plays5 years ago
Today’s Key Idea: We Love One Another By Listening to One Another
Mentioned in this episode:
The Listening Life by Leighton Ford
“Listening is like Spiritual Hospitality”- unknown
Connect with Ruth here:
Connect with Pat here:
Please share Rootlike Faith with your friends!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'Root Like Faith'
00:00:08
Speaker
Hi, we are Patrick and Ruth Schwank and we are so thrilled you're listening in with us here at Root Like Faith. It's our deepest desire to encourage and equip men and women to be rooted in God's Word, transformed by the love of Jesus, and moved by His mission and the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more important. So we can't wait to share today's episode with you. Let's go!
The Art of Listening
00:00:33
Speaker
On today's episode of Root Like Faith, we are talking about the lost art of listening. Why it's so hard to listen these days in our distracted culture and the difference between hearing and listening. In our last episode, we talked about the importance of community. So this topic of listening seems to tie right into the idea of relationships and community.
00:00:55
Speaker
So I'm excited to talk about this today with my co-host and husband Patrick. And listen, if I'm being completely honest here, sometimes I can be a really good listener and other times I stink at it. It just depends on honestly what's occupying my mind at the time.
00:01:13
Speaker
It just can be really hard for me sometimes. I think consistency in this area can be really hard for me. I can think of the people in my life who are the best listeners and listen, I'm not even close to them. But I do realize that being a good listener is something, it's something we should all work on.
00:01:33
Speaker
I'm just really glad you finally admitted that you're not always great at listening. I can't believe what I'm hearing in this moment. It took a podcast for us to come to this place in our marriage, but I appreciate that confession, honey. Okay. All right. You know, I remember when our kids were really young, I'm sure you remember this too. We had loaded up all of our kids in that 1994 minivan that we were talking about, that Ford Aerostar.
00:01:57
Speaker
And our kids were pretty young. I know Noah in particular was maybe two years old. I don't remember exactly, but we were all just trying to get in the van and buckle kids in and get them situated. And we were giving some instructions to the kids. And then Noah, who's our 13-year-old now, but he was probably two at the time, he looked up and he said to us in the midst of all that chaos and confusion, his siblings not listening, he looked at us and said, dad, I'm listening.
00:02:25
Speaker
And so whether you are a young child or whether you're a 45 year old guy like me, listening can be challenging. It is hard. And so we want to kind of talk about that theme today in the context of just having a flourishing relationship with God, but also having a flourishing relationship with one another.
Listening in Relationships
00:02:44
Speaker
Yeah, so let's start from the beginning then, which I think is a good place to start because it's the foundation. Why is it so important? Why is listening, why should this even matter to us?
00:02:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think one of the things that I think about often is just that longing that we all have to not only love others, but to be loved by others. We all want to know and be known. And listening is a really key ingredient for being known. You can't know someone or be known by someone without the art of listening.
00:03:19
Speaker
And so listening is so important because it really does bind us together in a more intimate relationship with God. It binds us into a more intimate relationship with one another. And so we have this longing to be known by others and to know others, and we can't accomplish that or foster that or cultivate that without learning to be good listeners.
00:03:38
Speaker
Yeah. And I can, I can think of people in my life that I, well, I'm sure you can too, where you're talking to somebody you're sharing. I am like the queen of, I don't know why, when I'm telling a story, I need everybody to listen. I need like complete attention. So I'm always like, listen, no, listen. Um, but anyways, I can think of so many times in my life.
00:04:00
Speaker
With people in my life where I've been talking to them and maybe it was my fault I mean, I guess I could have been rambling on and on but you can totally tell when somebody is tuning out and To me that there is nothing worse than that because I'm always like wait wait wait listen
00:04:18
Speaker
No, you're exactly right. I know with four kids, our kids are now 17, 15, 13, 11, and we sort of have this running, I don't know who passed this on to us, but that idea of when we're eating dinner or we're sitting in the family room, we'll often say one conversation. Part of that is because whoever's talking, whoever's sharing a story, we want to be fully engaged in that, and we want to be listening to them and paying attention to them.
Feeling Unheard in Community
00:04:43
Speaker
whether it's in a relationship with God or in a personal relationship with one another and a family is just really, really difficult. And you can almost assume that you, anybody you meet today has a being heard deficit. I think when you think about friendships that we're in, whether it's in the church or, I mean,
00:05:01
Speaker
you can almost be assured that everybody you're encountering is in some way experiencing a deficit or has experienced a deficit in being heard, being understood. And so we really offer our love to one another when we offer our listening to one another.
00:05:20
Speaker
Yeah and I you know as you're saying that I'm thinking about not only the person that doesn't feel like they're being heard like I was sharing if I'm if I'm talking and I feel like somebody's tuning out I'm like listen but I also walk away from those conversations where I feel like maybe I dominated too much and oh I hate that or
00:05:42
Speaker
or somebody dominated somebody else dominated so much that i just felt like this was this is totally a one-sided relationship yeah it's really i think it explains why you can be in a circle of friends or be in community and still feel lonely um and so just because you've got people around you doesn't mean that you're necessarily being loved or being heard or being understood you know i love
Understanding Active Listening
00:06:05
Speaker
One of my favorite books on this very topic is a book called The Listening Life. And The Listening Life is a fantastic book on this idea of knowing one another, listening to one another. Highly recommend it. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. But in the book, he makes a distinction between hearing and listening. And he says that hearing is what happens to us. Listening is a practice of focused attention.
00:06:31
Speaker
And so we all hear we are outside and we hear sirens or we hear birds chirping. I mean, we hear things. That's what happens to us. But listening is something we have to choose to do. It's a practice of focused attention. I just love that distinction that he makes in the book.
00:06:48
Speaker
Right. And I think that really shows us why it is so important because how can you possibly know someone if you can't listen to them? If you don't listen to them, you don't know who they are. You don't know about them. You don't know their life. You don't know their story. So I think this is it can be really easy to kind of just hear, especially in the age of the Enneagram.
00:07:10
Speaker
Those who've sat under my preaching for a number of months or the last couple of years know that I have a love-hate relationship with the integrator. I love what it offers us, that we can know ourselves better and know others better. But there is a level of numbering somebody without really knowing them. And so sometimes we can number somebody too quickly, not really listen to them and understand that we're all way more complex than that. And we have a past and we have a,
00:07:37
Speaker
you know, history and different events that have happened to us, experiences. And so listening is so important for loving those around us and being loved by those around us. And I think, you know, if we get down to just the reasons why it's so hard
00:07:54
Speaker
to listen why we're so I mean why we're so bad at it the biggest thing for me is distraction so I have so many things going on which I know a lot of you do too as well at the same time
00:08:10
Speaker
that I can, my mind feels scattered and I feel distracted. And in that, in that place, it's hard for me to really focus and listen. And there's so many things pulling at us. Don't you think that's probably one of honey, one of the biggest reasons why it's so hard for us to listen?
00:08:27
Speaker
I mean, I think technology is probably one of the biggest enemies of really being attentive to one another, listening to one another. I remember, I think we've written about this maybe in For Better For Kids, where you were telling me a story and there was lots of noise going on around us. The kids were coming in and out of the room and you were telling me a story. And I started out really strong. I was with you. I was listening to every detail, hanging on every word.
00:08:51
Speaker
And I just remember there was a slow fade there, and the deeper you got into the story, and it was a lengthy story. Honey. You are a pro at adding every detail. I like telling stories. You do, and you're very good at it. And so I just remember getting kind of deep into that story, and there was this slow fade, and there came a point in our conversation where it was clear you were asking me a question.
00:09:13
Speaker
And I had no idea where we were at in the story and what was being asked of me. And I just had to come clean. And and it was really because of the distractions going on around. I mean, I was thinking about things. I was thinking about things at the church and the kids were coming in and out. And of course, now we you know, we talk about, you know, social media and emails popping up and we've got phones that alert us to things that are going on.
00:09:35
Speaker
And so, yeah, distractions, I think, is a huge obstacle
Challenges of Modern Listening
00:09:38
Speaker
to being a good listener. Yeah, and I think here we have to say, though, that it's not going to look perfect because we will have those distractions that aren't necessarily bad things like your children. I mean, that's just going to it's going to be hard to listen. Yeah, it's life. And just like other things, there's just different seasons that make things a little bit easier. And so,
00:10:01
Speaker
I guess I would just suggest not try to have like the deepest conversation when all of your kids are running all around and you feel you know or something's really distracting you maybe that's a good place to start but I just feel like we need to say that that this doesn't have to look perfect that there's going to be things in our lives that make it that are distractions that aren't necessarily bad distractions that make it hard
00:10:23
Speaker
to listen. So let's pivot here and talk about then, you know, this whole podcast is about being rooted in our faith. And so how does that correlate with when we talk about listening? How does that correlate? How does being rooted in our faith? What does that have to do with listening?
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think one of the things that I thought was really fascinating is Scott McKnight, who is a New Testament scholar, he points out that the word listen appears over 1500 times in the Bible. And so you think about that, like at the very beginning of the Bible, we learned that God is a God who speaks, right? So Genesis one, Genesis two, and God said, and God said, and God said, and God said, nine different times God speaks and creation listens, creation responds.
00:11:10
Speaker
to God's voice, and light comes out of darkness, and order comes out of chaos. You know, beauty comes out of sort of that primordial soup there, if you will, in Genesis 1, and all creation responds. And then you come to Genesis 3, and for the first time, God's creation doesn't listen. God had commanded Adam and Eve that this is what will bring you life, and his creation for the first time
00:11:38
Speaker
closes its ears to Him. And so, you know, over 1,500 times in the Bible, you know, we hear that word, listen, or we read the word, listen. And we're oftentimes reminded of how God's people don't listen. I mean, just read the Old Testament. And how many times do you hear?
00:11:56
Speaker
Do you hear the story of God's people obeying and then disobeying, listening and then not listening? It's just a common theme. And so I think that idea of listening is so important for us as we think about walking with God, abiding in Christ, learning from Him, growing in a relationship with Him. We have to be good listeners. We listen and we obey. And so it's at the heart of what it means to be rooted in our faith, rooted in a life-giving relationship.
00:12:25
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that kind of reminds me of James 1.19, where we're told to be quick to listen. And right there is that command for us to- It's one of those verses you wish wasn't in the Bible. It's like, oh yeah, I guess it's not all about me. And I think, anyways, that's something for us to really be mindful of, is scriptures telling us to be quick to listen, which means we need that reminder.
00:12:52
Speaker
I think one of the other things that you
Divine Listening and Love
00:12:55
Speaker
see in the scriptures is that God loves us by listening to us. Psalm 103 is a great example of that, and there's so many, but Psalm 103 where the psalmist says, I love the Lord for he heard my voice. I cried out to God, I prayed to God, I went to him,
00:13:12
Speaker
and he heard my voice. He listened to me. And so I think one of the things that you see throughout the scriptures is not only does God speak and ask us to listen, but when we speak, God listens to us. He loves us by listening to us. And so I think when we then think about being good listeners and loving friends or family members by listening to them, it's always in response to how God has loved us by listening to us. We bear his image
00:13:39
Speaker
with the words that we speak because he's a speaking God but we also bear the image of God by the way we listen to others. Yeah and that makes me think of how many times I have cried out to God or spoken to God or you know and he doesn't respond right away in that and I think about us as his people and when we are listening to others
00:14:02
Speaker
And the reminder, like I said in James 1.19, of being quick to listen. And I think there's a correlation there that we don't always... I feel like we can have the tendency to feel like we have to give an answer right away or help somebody with that next thing, whatever we're listening to, where a lot of times God's just telling us, be quick to listen. So sit.
00:14:24
Speaker
and listen and let somebody kind of work out what they're working out with you. As you listen, we don't always have to be so quick to give a response, and it reminds me of how God works in my own life. He wants to hear from me, and there's a lot of times where he's working on me before he answers. Yeah, that's good. I think that's an excellent point. Sometimes the best thing to say is nothing at all.
00:14:46
Speaker
And so learning the wisdom of when to be quiet, like you said, and to listen and to be patient as somebody who's maybe telling their story or crying out from their heart and looking for that right time with God's help to speak a word of wisdom or truth or encouragement. And so I love that. I think that's an excellent point. You'll be quick to listen and slow to speak. And so I think that's such a great reminder. Let's talk a little bit about ways that we can
00:15:14
Speaker
we can be a better listener. One of the things that before we get into that, maybe some practical things, one of the things that other writers have used, that the language of listening is like spiritual hospitality. And I love that. I don't know who first used that phrase. I've read that in multiple books and in multiple places. I know Henry Nowan is one writer who has used that phrase and there's others.
00:15:39
Speaker
But when you think about hospitality, hospitality is inviting somebody into your home. They come into your home as a guest. And it's not about entertaining them or showing off your house or your stuff. It's about serving somebody. And so when you listen to someone, it really is an act of spiritual hospitality. You are inviting someone in, and you're offering yourself to them as well, and you are serving them.
00:16:06
Speaker
And I just love that imagery that listening is an awful lot like spiritual hospitality, where we're offering somebody, we're opening our heart to invite somebody in to be known and to be loved and to listen to them and to serve them in that way. Yeah, I don't think we realize how much it can mean to someone by listening. I mean, I'm speaking for myself there because I, like you were saying earlier, I like to give an answer right away because I want to fix things. You know, I want to help somebody.
00:16:35
Speaker
all of the confessions that are happening today. This feels so redemptive. We're not talking about you and me. I'm just talking about other people. But it can be so easy for me to want to give an answer. And then when I think about hospitality and how that really serves someone, I can think about all the people that we have had into our home.
00:16:56
Speaker
and really how much that meant to them that we were willing to open up our home to them and serve them a meal and spend time with them and how that correlates with our listening. Like hospitality is actually listening to someone as well. I love that so much. It can mean so much to someone.
00:17:16
Speaker
You know, one of the things that was so helpful for me or encouraging to me when I was going through treatment, coming out of that season of those two stem cell transplants and recovering and just really being beat up physically, emotionally, sometimes spiritually, is what I loved the most, what I appreciated the most from those around me were friends that would just call and say, hey, how are you doing? How are you doing today? How are you feeling emotionally?
00:17:45
Speaker
They weren't trying to fix my situation. They knew they couldn't. They weren't necessarily trying to change anything. And I didn't need them to. I just wanted to be heard. I wanted to be understood. And that was so valuable to me. That ministered to me in profound ways.
Becoming a Better Listener
00:18:01
Speaker
And so it served me. That was an act of hospitality. They were opening up their life, their heart.
00:18:07
Speaker
and they were serving me in that way. And I just greatly appreciated that. So let's talk really specifically, really practically. How do we be, I guess, better listeners? So what are some practical ways that we can do that?
00:18:21
Speaker
Well, I think like we already talked about is is trying our best not to be distracted. And I think practically what that looks like is, first of all, like I said, recognizing there's times that maybe we shouldn't schedule, you know, a get together with our friend to have the deepest conversation if we know it's not going to be a good time to do that. Yeah. I think that's a real practical way to just make your listening really matter and and be able to actually focus and listen to your friend.
00:18:49
Speaker
So one of the ways I've been trying to do that, I think that's great. I think one of the maybe the first ways we are better listeners is we're an undistracted listener. And so one of the things I've been trying to do is like, if I go have lunch with somebody or grab coffee with somebody, I will intentionally leave my phone in my car. Not every time. What if I need to get a hold of you? And so or I'll take my phone, but I won't put it on the table. That's probably more common. And so I'll take my phone and maybe I'll keep it in my bag. And I just I won't look at it.
00:19:19
Speaker
And if I get a message on my phone, I won't look at it. So I think those are some really practical ways to be an undistracted listener. Or if we're at home with our kids, I think something as simple as just looking our kids in the eyes. When our child is trying to talk to us or tell us about something from class or something that happened when they're out playing basketball in the driveway,
00:19:43
Speaker
talking about that experience, but being fully engaged by just looking at them, being undistracted, looking up from my email or the book that I'm reading. Those can be some really simple ways to be an undistracted listener. I think being a humble listener is another really practical way where we just
00:20:02
Speaker
really begin to be a servant in our listening. We're not trying to control a conversation. We're not trying to dominate with our words. We're just being a servant. Right. And I think that's where the whole idea of not having to have an answer and fix everything for somebody
00:20:19
Speaker
That's part of just being humble and being a servant and just listening. Like you said, when your friends would call and you would be talking to them through treatment and everything, you just wanted to have somebody to talk to. And there was nothing necessarily they could say to fix your situation, but that's not what you needed. You needed somebody just to show that they cared.
00:20:41
Speaker
I mean, we probably all, we won't name any names, but we can all think of people who, when you're talking to them, every story, every bad thing that's happened to you, it always comes back to them. That's sort of the opposite of being a humble listener. Somebody who takes everything you say to them, every hurt that you're going through, and they go, oh, wow, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. This happened to me.
00:21:06
Speaker
Or that's exactly like what happened to my son or to my wife and then they launch into a completely forgotten that you were just pouring out your heart or whatever it's I think yeah being a humble listener is really about being a servant it's about receiving and Taking that person's story and not always trying to give an answer try to fix it, but you're just trying to understand that person
00:21:29
Speaker
And I think so here we we've talked about being undistracted being humble being a servant in listening and then this is what I think you're so good at honey is being an inquisitive listener and that to me is When you're really listening to somebody you have questions and you want to keep you want to keep learning more about what they're talking about,
The Power of Questions
00:21:51
Speaker
right? Yeah, you know, I don't
00:21:53
Speaker
Thank you, by the way, I will take that compliment any day. No, I have always appreciated, as I've said, the people that have done that for me. And so I try when I'm meeting with a college student or with a couple from church or as we're talking, I think
00:22:09
Speaker
you can't fully listen to somebody without really being inquisitive about asking questions digging deeper. I think Jesus did that so masterfully in the Gospels. He oftentimes would answer a question by asking a question. Yeah, that's a good point. And so I think there are times where we're in a conversation, we're listening, we just need to ask the Holy Spirit to lead us.
00:22:29
Speaker
and to guide our hearing and to give us the heart of God the Father as we're talking with somebody and listening to somebody and really asking those questions, drawing that person's heart out and getting to maybe the hurt that they're experiencing. And I think questioning is so important to really being able to effectively love somebody and listen to them.
00:22:52
Speaker
And I just, again, love the whole idea. I think all of this ties into listening, being a spiritual hospitality, because when you invite someone over, like you said, it's not all about what you can show them. And it's not all about you, you're inviting them in because you want to serve them. And I think the same goes with our listening. And that's really how we can, if we view listening in that way, oh my word, I think we'll be better listeners just by having that perspective
Conclusion: Love and Listening
00:23:21
Speaker
shift.
00:23:21
Speaker
Well, thank you, honey. That was just a really good conversation about listening. And, you know, listening is so important because we cannot be known or know someone without listening, which is why becoming a better listener is so important. And listen, we are all. And do you notice how I say listen all the time?
00:23:41
Speaker
We can all be bad at listening by the distractions and busyness all around us, but God gives us such a beautiful picture of listening by first listening to us so we can do the same for one another.
00:23:56
Speaker
Well friends, you can follow us on Instagram at Patrick W. Schwank and at Ruth Schwank or on Facebook. Don't forget, everything we talked about is linked in our show notes at rootlikefaith.com backslash podcast. Again, what a great conversation today on listening. As you know, if you've been joining us every week,
00:24:17
Speaker
Each week we walk away with a key idea. I love it. I always need somebody to just boil it down, tell me the main idea. So it's the main takeaway that sums up what we've talked about. So today's key idea is simple, but it's so true. We love one another by listening to one another.
00:24:37
Speaker
We will also be sure to put that key idea in the show notes as well as anything else we referenced at rootlikefaith.com backslash podcast. Hey, I'm really excited for our next episode because we will be talking about a topic that seems like everybody's talking about right now, self-care. We'll be talking about what the Bible has to say about self-care and how it should look in the Christian life. So be sure to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes so you do not miss it.
00:25:06
Speaker
And as if I haven't said it enough already, we are so thrilled you're joining us here at Root Like Faith. We welcome you here into our family. It is our deepest desire to encourage and equip men and women to be rooted in God's word, transformed by the love of Jesus and moved by his mission in the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more important.