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When to Pivot - Interview with Justin Wise
4 Plays9 minutes ago
Phillip Ramsey sits down with Justin Wise, an entrepreneur and former pastor, to discuss his unconventional career path and the lessons learned from transitioning across diverse fields. They explore the challenges of entrepreneurship, the importance of creating a business that aligns with personal values, and the possibility of finding fulfillment outside traditional work environments. Justin shares his journey from media to ministry, and eventually to marketing, underscoring the pivotal moments that reshaped his goals. This episode offers insights and encouragement for anyone considering taking an entrepreneurial leap.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Uncommon Wealth Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Everyone dreams of living an uncommon life and the best asset you have to achieve your dreams is you. Welcome to the Uncommon Wealth Podcast.
00:00:12
Speaker
We're going to introduce you to people who are living uncommonly. We're also going to give you some tools and strategies for building wealth and for pursuing an uncommon path that is uniquely right for you.
00:00:26
Speaker
Hello and welcome everybody to another episode of the Uncommon Wealth Podcast, where I'm your host, Philip Ramsey, and we have an in-studio interview today with a saucy manx himself, Justin Wise.
Meet Justin Wise: Entrepreneurial Journey Begins
00:00:38
Speaker
Holy cow, this has been a long time coming. Your bio is, you do what you want to do. Come on. There is no spoon. There's no spoon. Loves the matrix, loves helping people. Entrepreneur at heart, just passionate about helping other people not hate their life and not wanting to hang themselves as they run a business.
00:00:56
Speaker
So small business, entrepreneurship, man, there's so much that we could unpack here. But first, married to your love of your life, you have three kids, yes have a pool in the backyard. i mean, what isn't going well for this guy? you know That's why we started with the Saucy Minx.
00:01:13
Speaker
ah Gotta be saucy. This is gonna be a good podcast. Justin, thanks for being on the show. Super excited to just kind of unravel and unpack all the knowledge in your head.
00:01:24
Speaker
ah Full disclosure, you've helped me in our business, Uncommon Wealth Partner, take a good look at the whole business and try to figure out like, how do we start streamlining this thing? yeah Because the last thing anybody does when they start a business is want to be in prison to your own business.
00:01:39
Speaker
And I feel like I'm really good at that. Okay, just being honest. So Justin, how did you get to where you're at today? Let's start with just unpacking your background because I feel like the people who are the best at what they do have been in the prison before have had to struggle through this.
00:01:54
Speaker
And I'll start with a story. So there was a Alcohol Anonymous type of thing and there was a practitioner that was just... speaking to these people that had drug addictions and all this stuff.
00:02:06
Speaker
And they found out like there was like a 12% success rate out of that. And then they realized that because the person never had to deal with this stuff, wasn't as impactful as somebody else who's gone through the program and has seen success.
00:02:18
Speaker
That success has uber multiplied over those years because the person, the practitioner now that was pouring into other people that were dealing with the same addictions was like, I was there where you were at. Yes. And now I'm out of it. So just, I feel like you're a little bit out of it. And, uh, I look up to you.
00:02:33
Speaker
I'm grateful to have you as a friend, as a mentor and a coach to speak into our business. And now you get to speak to all of our listeners. Yay. All three of them. I'm just kidding. There's more than that. But, uh, my mom just want to say hi. What's up mom. yeah Exactly.
00:02:48
Speaker
Uh, anyway. all right, Justin, how did you get to where you're at, man?
Educational and Early Career Challenges
00:02:51
Speaker
ah So this is a pretty standard career path that most people have. You go to school for a worthless electronic media degree yes at the Harvard of the Midwest, University of Northern Iowa.
00:03:04
Speaker
um We both graduated there. yeah Great things happened from the UNI. YOLO, baby. So i I wanted to go into TV and radio.
00:03:15
Speaker
Interesting. I mean, you hear his voice. You get it. Yeah, I did. I wanted to go on the TV and radio. And so that's what went to college for. And then I moved to Los Angeles for what I thought was going to be a permanent move. Okay. And I was going to break into the entertainment Is where you met Carrie? Is it you and I? No, we met at Hope. Okay.
00:03:34
Speaker
Okay. At our church. After you went to to California. Yeah. Okay. Carrie's his wife, if you haven't picked up on that. Yeah. So Carrie and I met at Hope, but before that I thought, I'm going to go into you know entertainment. And i lived in Los Angeles for, I made it, I think it was three months.
00:03:50
Speaker
And then I was like, get me out of here. Yeah. I can't do this. These aren't my people. These are not my people. This lifestyle, The churn and burn, the guys that I worked for at the time, they were awesome, but they were working 16, 17, 18-hour days, sleeping in their office. working with D-level celebrities, that's like a step above the folks that we were working with. Yeah, what they were working on.
00:04:18
Speaker
And so i was like, okay, I'm going to go back home. How do you mentally prepare for that? Because like, I think that at least for me, if I go out to California, it's going to be the end all be all. This is going to exactly what I want to do I've studied for this. I'm ready to to go.
00:04:31
Speaker
And you get there and you're like, this is not what I planned. was horrible. It was horrible. And no discredit, like, we I have dear friends who who we went out there. There's like a group of 20 of us.
00:04:45
Speaker
And I think one is still out there. Okay. Yeah, one, Steve, God bless Steve. He made it. 14 hour days, Steve. Yeah. yeah So Steve is still out there, but the rest of us slowly, there's a big wave of us that went back almost immediately. Wow. And Like immediately, like three months? Yeah. Okay.
00:05:05
Speaker
like Because we had a short term, there was a group of us, we had a short term kind of lease thing. Okay. The Oakwood Apartments, if you know where that's at, it's right by the NBC Studios. It's like where all the folks who are trying to make it, that's where they live. an incubator. Yes. Yeah. And so that lease was up and we're like, get me out of here. Yeah.
00:05:24
Speaker
So I came back with just real no direction all because I had every intention of staying out there. And you're 22 at this point. I was 22. Yeah. Okay. And just about to turn 23. Okay.
00:05:36
Speaker
okay So I did what any person who is in a crisis at that stage does and I added another year on to school because I was like... i don't know That didn't work. yeah right so I'm going to just like take a few classes and try and figure out what I'm going to do next. what school?
00:05:52
Speaker
UNI. Back to love it. You purple. it was just like It was such a shock to my system. yeah and so i was just like, i don't know. i can't go home.
00:06:06
Speaker
so Let me just figure out like some more credits I can take. wow and um Without getting too much into the details, there were supposed to be like some some credit swaps that we did out there.
00:06:19
Speaker
so like I was supposed to stay on and continue to take classes and then graduate and work. yeahp Anyway, it didn't work. So fast forward, I graduate and moved back home and I'm like, i don't know what I'm going to with my
Transition to Church Work and Social Media Consulting
00:06:33
Speaker
life.
00:06:33
Speaker
So i was waiting tables at TGA Fridays. Oh, yeah. With the but the flare? Oh, yeah. I had flare, baby. yeah Didn't they do like the bartending, like they were throwing bottles and stuff?
00:06:45
Speaker
I mean, i I think somebody got sued. Okay. Then that had to shut down. But I kind of wanted to do that. Yeah. yeah It was cool. It looked cool anyway. Yeah. All right. I was a servant Olive Garden, so it's not much better. When you're here, you're family. You are. You are the OG. That's right. Okay, sorry.
00:07:01
Speaker
So anyway, I graduated and then I moved back home and I was just like totally miserable. Yeah, yeah. Now student loan debt. ah Student loan debt and no direction. i knew i didn't want to go into entertainment and i didn't want to do any of that.
00:07:17
Speaker
I tried to intern at a few like news and radio stations here in town. I was just totally miserable. That's not the play. No. yeah Especially when you were out in California. like It's really like not the play.
00:07:28
Speaker
Yeah, because you you saw... i mean At least the group that I was working with... I remember I did a hot tub commercial. They're like, one day they're like, hey, we need an extra, so go grab your swimming suit, and you're going to be an an extra in this hot tub commercial. are.
00:07:41
Speaker
And they're like, we have this celebrity who's going to be in the hot tub with you. Don't. Don't even talk to me like this. won't say who it was, but it was like... ah She was on channel eight. She was, she was in Baywatch, but she was like, she was like, um, don't want to get in trouble here. yeah She, she was not who you think of when you think of Baywatch. Let me just put it that way. All right. All right. Yep.
00:08:06
Speaker
And so, so anyway, I was like, I, I just media entertainment. That's not my thing. Yeah. It's not going to be what it's time. The dream is dead. Dream's dead. So i'm going to wait tables. I painted houses. stained decks and,
00:08:18
Speaker
Just kind of waiting around, farting around, seeing like, what am I going to do? And my parents, God bless them, they're like, you know, because I grew up going to church. And they're like, hey, we're not here to tell you what to do, but we think you should probably. You might want to go back to church. Yeah, you should find your way back to a church.
00:08:34
Speaker
It doesn't have to be our church. Right. But you should find your way back to church. Which appreciate. Our church. They let you do your deal and then slowly give you some hints. You should go find the Lord. Yeah. Yeah. Figure your life out here, man.
00:08:47
Speaker
So I went to a church here in town. i knew I didn't want to go back to but the church I grew up in. So for lots of different reasons, it's a great church, but it just wasn't my church.
00:08:59
Speaker
yeah So I went to a church here in town and um started volunteering and really started feeling like, oh, hey, I'm not depressed anymore. i'm not like you know i feel like I have some sort of traction in life.
00:09:12
Speaker
And the staff, they're like, hey, you're like kind of good at this. Would you consider interning here? And I was like, sure, why not? Yeah. Yeah, sure. pay me nothing. Pay me nothing. i mean know Yeah, I'll do everything. I'm hardly getting paid anyway. Yeah. Waiting tables, so it's not a big step down. It's not painting. You probably had to think of that.
00:09:32
Speaker
Painting. it wasn't painting, so I was like, yes, I'll do it. Yeah. And so long story short, um started getting more and more responsibilities, met my wife.
00:09:43
Speaker
And then they're like, hey, there we think you should be a pastor. Have you ever considered being a pastor? I was like, no, not really. have never thought about that. Well, I actually get paid. yeah they're like, yes, but you'll need to pay for your way to go through schooling. so Oh. Yeah.
00:10:01
Speaker
So anyway, there's a program out of um Bethel, which allows you to be in ministry, but also get your MDiv. Do the classes. Your Master of Divinity.
00:10:12
Speaker
So I did that program and four years after i started, i graduated with a master divinity. My wife and I had been married. We got married during this time. We paid for the entire thing out of pocket.
00:10:24
Speaker
Man. And says a lot. Well, she was the breadwinner. What was she doing at the She was in, um grant work. Okay. Grant writing. Yep. For a bunch of different nonprofits. Okay.
00:10:34
Speaker
So she was a breadwinner and, But for a company, it wasn't for her company. Right. okay was so She worked for the Lung Association and she worked for a few other nonprofits.
00:10:45
Speaker
Okay. And so so I graduated and, you know, it was kind of crazy because I'd been working at the church. I'd been doing this, you know, ministry path.
00:10:57
Speaker
And like six months after I graduated seminary, I felt like the Lord was saying, um ah the church is not where you're going to stay. You're not you're not going to be a pastor. Right.
00:11:10
Speaker
I want you to go start a business. Right. And I was like, huh. I can't tell Carrie. I can't tell Carrie. I was like, this cannot this cannot be. Yeah, yeah.
00:11:21
Speaker
And truth be told, I probably knew about two years before then. But I just... You got to stick through at that point. Yeah. Which says a lot about you. So I finished that. And then, like I said, six months after that, I was i had left the church.
00:11:33
Speaker
Wow. In in the... In the vocation church. Correct. Not that you haven't left the church. like Yeah, we still go there. So the faith, yeah. Yeah, and Pastor Mike is a dear friend, and I write text him all the time, and sometimes he texts back. Perfect.
00:11:49
Speaker
But you knew that this vocation of you to do ministry was like, God was saying no. No. that's it's it's It served its purpose. That's right. And now it's now we need to move on. You're not going to be a pastor.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah. And I got 95% of the way done. Wow. Was up until the call committee, which basically is just a fancy way of saying like other people have to approve the fact that you want to be a pastor. Yep.
00:12:11
Speaker
And they would have totally said approved. They would have, but it was like, man, you got to jump through all these hoops and you got to do all this stuff. If your heart's not in it. No, you're not jumping through. Nope. And so I didn't.
00:12:23
Speaker
And go one quick aside, and I think it's important for people to hear this, is that you know when I was working at the church, ah I was doing this newfangled thing called social media.
Flourishing Consulting Career and Pivotal Education Investment
00:12:35
Speaker
Because when was this? This was 2004. i two thousand seven Yeah, 2006 is when I started seminary. I graduated 2010. Okay. So in the in that window.
00:12:45
Speaker
Okay. Facebook was relatively new. Social media is relatively new. And so I started taking our church and putting us in these different platforms. Hmm. And i didn't tell Pastor Mike either because i knew that would make him really nervous and uncomfortable. yeah And so one day I was like, hey, ah we have this Facebook page for the church. Don't know if you knew that or not.
00:13:07
Speaker
But there's like thousands of people on this page and you should like you should know this. Yeah, you should probably you should give some attention to it. yeah It's blowing up. And he's like, wow. That's a lot. it was a lot of people. yeah And he's like, wow.
00:13:19
Speaker
He's like, ministry's happening here. i was like, yeah, you're right. And so so what ended up happening was like all these other churches started emailing me and calling me and saying, hey, how do we do that?
00:13:32
Speaker
And I was like, well, you just kind of do it. And they're like, hey, can we pay you to come out and show us how to do this? I was like, what do you mean pay me? Pay me? Yeah.
00:13:42
Speaker
And they're like, yeah pay you come out, we'll pay you, and you show us how to do it. How much do you want? How how much do you want? And this started my consulting career.
00:13:53
Speaker
Okay. Because I didn't even know that was a thing. Right, right, right. And so I would go to these different churches and... And nothing against ministry, but it doesn't seem like in ministry you feel like people want to pay you.
00:14:05
Speaker
It's like you have to give everything away for free. Again, nothing against ministry, right but I feel like that is also like the Christian way. How can I help you, brother? yes How can I do this? Although that's not always the case. That's more head trash that we all have. ye But okay, keep going.
00:14:19
Speaker
Yeah, so so I would spend a day, i remember exactly, I would spend, I would, I charged $2,500, I'd spend a day with these churches, and I'd do everything for them. Wow. And I remember at one point I was making more doing side consulting than I was am i and my job.
00:14:37
Speaker
right And so I was like, huh, okay, well. And then long story short, push came to shove and a bunch of other factors came into play and it was like, i've I had to choose.
00:14:49
Speaker
and Am I going to keep going the ministry route or am to do this consulting thing? And it was a very easy decision right at that point. I bet you even Carrie was on board with that. She was 100% on board. You know, and that's a lot. That says a lot about Carrie. So shout out to Carrie. woo boo What up, Carrie? Yeah, she's great. I know her personally. But it says a lot about her when you guys have sacrificed so much for you to go get your MDiv and you basically taking a whole other direction and her being supportive. so She was 100% supportive.
00:15:20
Speaker
Super amazing, yeah by the way. Was she working at the time? She, let's see. So she, our first kiddo was born in 2009 and she quit about a year and a half after that.
00:15:32
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um, it might've been longer. The dates are fuzzy, but it was somewhere around there. Yeah. But it did help the extra income that you were doing consulting. Correct. And so she started to see, okay, there's a path here.
00:15:44
Speaker
hmm. And then I kind of bounced around between, so I left the church and then bounced around with a few different kind of like long-term contracts with organizations and individuals.
00:15:55
Speaker
And then finally it was like, okay, I can do this contract thing or I can just hang out my shingle and start a business, like a real business. Right. Like get, you know, secretary of state, get your LLC, get your business yeah accounts, blah, blah, blah. Yep.
00:16:10
Speaker
So I did that 2013 and kind of officially launched 2014, but there was a really important piece that happened in the late half of 2013, which is a guy named Casey Graham.
00:16:24
Speaker
Casey was working in the church world and he was doing what it was that I wanted to do. This is something that I've done pretty much my entire career is identify the people who are doing the things that I want to do and then pay them to tell me how they did it. Mm-hmm.
00:16:40
Speaker
So I went to Casey. I said, hey, youre you have the exact business that I want. Teach me how to do it. He's like, yeah, sure. I'll teach you everything I know. And he's like, i was like, cool. Well, how much is it?
00:16:51
Speaker
He goes, it's 10 grand for two days. And I'm like, oh. Come again? I'm sorry, what? Yeah. 10 grand for two days. So I told Carrie and she's like, yeah, you should totally do it. Whoa. Yeah.
00:17:06
Speaker
Cause you didn't have 10 grand no at that point. Yeah. Yeah. We barely had like two nickels to rub together. So I flew to Atlanta. He taught me everything he knew, and it made a massive impact in my life. And to this day, it's still one of those pivotal moments. Best investment. 100%. Right.
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah. You were going uncommon, and you just tripled down on it. Actually, for what you had in the bank account. Yes. More than tripled. Yes. Down on it. Yeah. so So you had to credit card that bad That's right. That's right. Okay. I would not be standing here if it were not for American Express. Okay. I'm just going to be honest. Yeah. Sometimes you got to take a risk. Yeah.
00:17:43
Speaker
And you did. That was a big risk. But on yourself. It wasn't like Bitcoin that you put a risk on. but You put it on yourself. Yeah. And it was like it was also knowing that, okay, I'm going to figure this out eventually. Yeah.
00:17:54
Speaker
do i want it to take Do I want it to take two days or do I want it to take 20 years? Okay, just think about this for a second. For how much money that you spent on your education for eight years, and then you take $10,000 and you say two days, yeah and that and yet that was the best investment that you had. hundred percent 100%.
00:18:12
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. It's not like you didn't learn things for the other eight years, but it's just crazy how much you can pack it in. The other thing psychologically for you spending that much money is you didn't go and mess around.
00:18:25
Speaker
No. Like you were dialed in knowing like I have to have a rate of return on this money. Yes. there's there's There is stuff that we needed to get to and I needed to have before I left and the clock was ticking. right Which had a really interesting way of just flushing out all the stuff that we look at as business owners and we think it's important, but it's actually not.
00:18:48
Speaker
So what was important was, how am I going get clients? How am I going to sustain getting clients? and And what am I going to offer them that is appealing and that they want?
00:18:59
Speaker
yeah That was about it. what's my business model That's right. that's right and so That led to an explosion of growth from you know from twenty thirteen late 2013 on of just kind of this mix of consulting and courses and workshops. I'm kind of skipping over some of the details, but that ultimately is where the business settled.
00:19:25
Speaker
and That eventually turned into an agency, and that agency nearly... ended my life.
00:19:32
Speaker
And so, yeah, I don't know if you want to go into those details at all, but long story short, like I look back on it now and I realized like my whole career has been spent taking what I know and building it into scalable products that other people can consume and use and utilize where I don't have to be present to help them.
00:19:56
Speaker
It's been a big shift. Right. Okay, so I think this would be the third time that you've hit a a lull in the path that you thought you were you're going to head for the
From Course Creation to Scalable Products
00:20:06
Speaker
rest of your life. yeah And I think there is something about that that's powerful, that's really...
00:20:13
Speaker
comforting i think i'll say i'll say comforting knowing that god kind of is guiding your path yes because i feel like okay this is what it needs to be we need to graduate college and it needs to be media god's like yeah no not so much then you get out of media oh it's mdiv we need to go get our we need i need to be a pastor okay that was ah that gave you equipped you with things that you are using currently to this day absolutely all of these have But no, that's not the play.
00:20:39
Speaker
Then you go on to this social media route. Okay, this is amazing. No, it's not the thing, right? So, it's powerful, and I think it's also very comforting to know that, like, if God doesn't want you to go down this path, He will politely, gently, sometimes abruptly, change your direction and focus. But it's your job to then not be...
00:20:59
Speaker
what is the word prideful or, you know, like so hang on to things that might not be that you're forcing. Yeah. So did this happen where you sold the business yet? Have you done that yet? Cause I feel like that's a powerful story that I want to kind of unpack a little bit. so Yeah.
00:21:14
Speaker
Yeah. There's one thing that just is popping to my mind and usually I find it best to roll with those, you know, that there was, and and maybe this is somebody listening right now where like, I remember distinctly,
00:21:27
Speaker
thinking to myself, okay, I feel like the Lord is leading me out of ministry, but but you know it's the sunk cost bias, right? Spent all this time, all this money. right And I remember sitting with, let's just say, a group of other people who were who were considering full-time ministry.
00:21:46
Speaker
And i remember thinking to myself, like I could totally convince them. well i could What I saw was a room full of people who were convincing themselves that this is what God had called them to do.
00:21:59
Speaker
Went through discussion. in conversation with them. might not have been no right It was obvious to me that 80% of the people in that room shouldn't be doing ministry professionally. right And i remember thinking to myself, like I could totally go that route.
00:22:19
Speaker
I could just put the blinders on and go down this route. And I'm convinced that, and it's not just ministry, there's people who are running business models or who have businesses that they don't necessarily enjoy or care about, but frankly it pays the bills. So they keep going down that route. They keep grinding.
00:22:38
Speaker
And there's a better way. yeah It's scarier. Right. Sure. At least the front. It's an uncommon way. Yeah. But it's, you got to be honest with yourself. You have to. Or else you're just going to be banging your head against the wall. Yes.
00:22:51
Speaker
And I feel like the people, and you would, you're going to lie to yourself and say like, no, it's only impacting me. That is the biggest lie. Oh yeah. It's impacting everybody in your life. Yes. Because you're miserable. And people can tell. And and people can tell.
00:23:03
Speaker
Yeah. So giving yourself that permission to say, no really, no one else is listening. No one else is around. Let's be honest. Let's be honest. Yeah. So part of that journey included like, okay, I think I told you in 2014, I started basically a digital marketing course.
00:23:21
Speaker
For churches. For churches. Yep. Yep. It was based off, I wrote a book ah on social media for churches. It was based on the material in that book. And so i I created the course. We launched the course. It did well.
00:23:35
Speaker
It was okay. People bought it. It wasn't like retirement money, but it was doing good. I got a call from ah group that was kind of doing the same thing. They're in the same vertical.
00:23:47
Speaker
And they're like, hey, we want to buy your course. I was like, great. Here's the order form. Here's you guys want a bulk discount or something or what? Like, yeah. Why are you calling why you
00:23:59
Speaker
me? What do you want? Yeah. And they're like, no, we want to buy it. Like tie it up with a bow. Yeah. And buy the course. Yeah. Because we want to roll it into our offerings.
00:24:11
Speaker
And I was like, I'm sorry. i didn't i didn't know you could do that. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I didn't know I could just sell you this thing that I'd made. Well, I didn't know that what I was building was valuable to other people. Right. Is what you were saying. Yes.
00:24:24
Speaker
Mm-hmm. So we met for lunch and I gave him a price, which is comically low to this day. It was like 30 grand. Now 30 grand is a lot of money. Back then, for sure. Yeah. And even Especially the past that you've had. 30 grand is like we are.
00:24:38
Speaker
That was my annual salary. Yeah, right. As a pastor. was 30 grand a year. So that's where that number came from. Okay. Because I remember thinking like, whoa, I'm going to make in a day what I'm used to make in a year.
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah, Yeah. And he scribbled out a check for 30 grand on the spot. And I left with 30 grand check in my hand. And to me, it was a collection of...
00:25:02
Speaker
It was a Dropbox folder filled with video files and trainings and PDFs and checklists and all this kind of stuff. But to that person, it was a huge value add to their to their business. right And it spoke to a side of the market that they had not spoken to yet.
00:25:17
Speaker
Invalidating that you haven't been doing things. You weren't just... you weren't just Doing nothing. Right. It was something that you were creating. Yes.
00:25:29
Speaker
Okay. That people are seeing valuable. And that like, that lunch still haunts me to this day because I got a taste of something that I think I've been chasing ever since in some way, shape or form. Interesting. Yeah.
00:25:42
Speaker
Once you get a taste of it. Yeah. You want to go back. Oh yeah. Which is funny, and I'm glad we unpacked this a little bit, because I feel like that's where God's kind of calling you now. Yes. And I don't know what that even looks like. All right, so we're fast-forwarding to— Ten years.
Agency Challenges and Asset Building Focus
00:25:57
Speaker
Ten years, when you you realize that what you really just built yourself a prison of the marketing digital marketing company that you— Which you created. Yeah.
00:26:08
Speaker
And you're still seeking after. And I don't think it was as clear to you then, but you're still seeking after that lunch. I want to build something that's valuable not only to me now, but somebody else later. Yes. And you're you're basically ready to end it all. You're miserable. Yeah. Because we knew each other back then. That's right. Yeah.
00:26:28
Speaker
Okay. and this is So we had started, long story short, what happens when you create information products, and this is valuable for anybody listening who's in business. ah People will say, oh, well, our business model isn't set up for courses or workshops. And I'm like, the heck it's not. right Because when you educate people, inevitably what happens is they're like, this guy or gal knows what they're talking about. Mm-hmm.
00:26:49
Speaker
And I don't want to do for myself the thing that they're teaching me to do. I just want to hire someone to do it. And that's almost always where they'll come back to you and say, hey, can you just do this thing for me?
00:27:00
Speaker
Right. I know I bought your course to do that. yeah Can you just do it for me? can you do it for me? Right. That's where our agency sprang from. Because I kept getting these folks going through. because Once I sold the um digital marketing for churches, we just applied the same principles to businesses. Right.
00:27:15
Speaker
And so these businesses started showing up saying, this is great and all, but like I just want you to do it for me. So we started i started an an agency. And I started doing this stuff for people. And it grew and grew and grew.
00:27:27
Speaker
ah And then I got to a spot where I was just totally miserable. I was working all the time. Yep. And my plan was to hire a management team and lock our clients into 12-month contracts and then put it out for sale.
00:27:42
Speaker
Okay. Because that's what a buyer is going to want to see. Right. the the Revenue. Revenue. Business is not dependent on you, yeah the owner. Yep. And there's a way for them to make their money back. Yep. And then some. Right.
00:27:55
Speaker
And contracts in place is really what they're looking for. Yep. So started out to do that. And then i don't know far you want to get into this. Well, I think the point we you could go as far as you want, but the point is it it didn't quite work out. It didn't work. You didn't get to the 12 months. No, no, because you were unsustainably building it. Yes. Okay.
00:28:17
Speaker
That's maybe the best way to, to synthesize that. Yeah. Yeah. Without violating yeah some NDAs or whatever. Right. Right. and And there was a couple options that you were like, I'm throwing Hail Marys here. yeah But at the end of the day, the core value or the core business model that you were building wasn't true to your core values and what you were trying to do. That's right. Right.
00:28:39
Speaker
So that went just kind of, let's just say that just went away. Yeah. Right. um It was something big to then something that's like unraveling very quickly. Oh, yeah.
00:28:49
Speaker
And it was fast. Taking a toll on you and your mental health and yes everything. Yeah, I was in like a state of shell shock for. So this was right around like this was early 2020 was really when things like were on life support.
00:29:06
Speaker
Then the pandemic hits.
00:29:10
Speaker
Just to nail in the coffin. And I was like, okay, I am just like like i just felt like I was i was waiting, like just just floating around in life. I was directionless. I didn't really have a business anymore.
00:29:26
Speaker
Just numb. Yeah. And so so then that led that led me into a business partnership that um started out promising.
00:29:37
Speaker
Mm-hmm. and they always do ahead They always do. And it was. It was going super well for like the first six months. And the the basis of the partnership was um was essentially in line with what I'd been doing for a long time, which is helping small businesses with their marketing.
00:29:56
Speaker
And then that did not go the direction that either one of us hoped it would go. And so I'm left at the end of 2023 in kind of the same position I was in of just like, what am I doing? and um And so so since then, it's just been a lot of asking the really hard questions of like, what do I actually want?
00:30:22
Speaker
ah What is a business that is fun for me? Because I don't think I've ever asked that question. Life-giving. Yes. right That's actually enjoyable for me to to get up and deliver. Instead of what other people want or expect from me. Right. What is it that I actually enjoy doing?
00:30:39
Speaker
and um And that was really hard. I don't know how else to say it. Right. It was really difficult. It was painful. And I still feel like I'm still in that process a little bit. Sure.
00:30:50
Speaker
right um But one thing I do know is like this next leg of the journey. So I'm 44. and what that So that's not old, but that's not young. right right And so what I know, though, is the next leg of the journey...
00:31:06
Speaker
I don't want to say it's all about that lunch in Kansas City where the guy slid a check for 30 grand over the table. But what I do know is it's less about pushing buttons and pulling levers from a marketing standpoint and more about building and selling and acquiring assets.
00:31:27
Speaker
That's what the next leg of the journey looks like. Right. As far as I can tell. Right. It's good. And here we are. And here we are. It's fascinating.
Entrepreneurial Reflections and Future Ambitions
00:31:36
Speaker
You know here's the deal. What I would say is like, I feel like sometimes you and I are, well, we're just hard on it ourselves. Let's be honest.
00:31:44
Speaker
And if, if we really took a step back and we talked to somebody at principal financial group or Wells Fargo, that's working a desk job, getting paid really well, maybe 180,000 has That's,
00:31:56
Speaker
has four one k that's I don't know, three, 400,000. I bet you they would trade all of it for what we have. That's right. Isn't that fascinating? As much as we're like, it's it's a challenge and it's a struggle.
00:32:11
Speaker
I feel like we're further away, further down the path than they are. And I feel like they're almost like, well, I have to do this now. yeah I'm 44. I don't know what I would do. Does that make sense? Like they haven't taken the uncommon journey exit.
00:32:26
Speaker
And now they feel like they are stuck yes at that golden handcuffs job yeah and they hate their life. And like where you and I, we get to a point where like, oh, this is this is ending and we need to change an abort mission and we need to figure out a different path.
00:32:42
Speaker
It's way easier for you and i because we've done it since we were younger. yes And we're just like, okay, Lord, we're We're going to trust in you. What's all your whats should what's next? How am I going to be able to serve your people in a way that you've uniquely gifted me? yeah Because if you think about your whole story, first you were in media, right? You always feel that kind of drive yeah and experience there. you You expanded on that.
00:33:05
Speaker
Didn't work out. Then you went to go to get your MDiv, which is like, no, I'm going to go pour into people, right? And then God was like, yeah, okay. Take that experience and go work with people and then help them scale up. Yeah.
00:33:18
Speaker
by doing media stuff. Like you use both of those things, then your social church, and then that's where you gotta sell it. Then you're now into this kind of marketing phase where you're like, no, I wanna go help people.
00:33:29
Speaker
build something that they're excited about. And that's, I think, something for you. It's not just like one industry. You like them all. And they all have this underlying same theme that they want to do is how do they build something sustainable for them?
00:33:43
Speaker
Yes. Which I feel like all of this stuff, all your experiences, God used to be where you're at now. And I think... That's probably why it's a little hard, because God's used all the experiences in the past to be able to shape your future. That's good. And you feel like, maybe at this point, like, well, what's going to be the next experience God gives me to be able to take me to the next level? Yes. But if you, back to this guy that's working at his golden handcuffs job, if you were to say, i want all of yours for what he would say, I would give it all up to be able to where Justin is. Yeah. Does that make sense? Or where Philip is, wherever. Or these entrepreneurs or uncommon people, because I feel like we are called to create.
00:34:18
Speaker
That's what we're doing. Like God in the beginning, God created. yes And I feel like we're made in his image and he wants us to create something. that's right And when we're creating something for somebody else, inherently for many of us, we feel like there's more and bigger things that he wants us to do.
00:34:33
Speaker
And sometimes we just pigeonhole ourselves and we don't have enough grace or another humility to be like, no, We can't keep doing that, right? God's calling me something bigger. And he's done that for you. And now you're pouring into other people.
00:34:45
Speaker
And I think helping them, I think you're on the right path. I know you're on the right path because God's going to be like, yeah, that's not the right path that's right if he doesn't like that. But I think every door that you keep knocking keeps opening and you walk through it until you're like, well, there's another door. Let's go see what that is. Yes. So that's why I really wanted you on the show is because the humility that it takes to be like, hey, this isn't working as well as I thought, or I'm not on a sustainable path. We need to change something.
00:35:09
Speaker
And you're good at that. And now you're doing that for other people. And I think he's opening doors of like, they're still opening doors. What's the next thing? And you're adding to that. You're, okay, maybe I need to partner with them at some point to help them grow.
00:35:24
Speaker
and then I have a little bit more vested interest because I maybe have some kind of ownership in that growth that we're creating. ye Am I off here? No. Okay.
Advice for Aspiring Entrepreneurs
00:35:32
Speaker
You were spot on. So that's why I wanted to get you on the podcast, because I feel like there's a lot of listeners out there that are like, we're just too far behind the eight ball, which couldn't be further from the truth. No.
00:35:43
Speaker
But that's exactly where I think the devil wants you and your employer wants you is to feel like it's too late. And it's not. No, it's not. And, you know, we say we're 44, but you talk to a 54 year old, i but I would do anything to be 44. Do it.
00:35:56
Speaker
you know i talked to I talked to a guy at our church, super bright guy, just a sweetheart. And I was like, hey, you've done this. You've walked the path. You've been CEOs.
00:36:07
Speaker
You've been a CEO of a huge organization. You've started your own business. You've sold your own business. And now you work at our church just because you love doing it. I need to learn from you.
00:36:19
Speaker
And he sat me down. i don't know how old. He didn't say how old he was, but he has to be in his late sixty s early 70s. And he asked me how old I was. And he goes, 44. Man. What I would give to be 44. Yes. In your shoes. Isn't that great?
00:36:34
Speaker
It's so, even if I didn't take away anything else from the conversation. it was that. Which I did. i took a ton away. But hearing that, because oftentimes you just feel like, oh my gosh, I'm so far behind. And I'm tempted, like my wife will attest to this.
00:36:49
Speaker
I'm tempted often to look at, like, I worked at the church from intern to my last day. it was almost 10 years. Holy cow. Yeah. It was give or take. Right.
00:37:00
Speaker
And i I'm tempted at times to look at that as like almost wasted time. Yes, right. Because I look at other people who kind of do what I do and they spent their 20s just colossally failing. Yes, right.
00:37:15
Speaker
Starting all these different businesses and just totally bombing until I find the one that works. And my path didn't look that way. Mm-hmm. And I want to speak directly because I don't know, but there's probably somebody who's in that job at principal at Wells Fargo and is feeling like I'm stuck.
00:37:34
Speaker
I want to speak to that person because there is there there is a path forward. If you're feeling that pull, there's a reason.
00:37:45
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm not talking about like, oh I want a different job or I want more money. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the person who says, i kind of want to do my own thing.
00:37:56
Speaker
They have that itch. Come on. I want to tell you, as someone who got started in entrepreneurship late in life, and early 30s really is when I kind of got my feet wet. Yeah.
00:38:12
Speaker
That's later than most. Right. It is not too late. No. Right. It's never too late. If you are listening to this with that, your heart is strangely warmed. Yeah.
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah. There's something there. To quote Wesley. Uh-huh. Yeah. There is totally something there and is worth pursuing. Let me just put it that way. right And there's a way that you can do it safely. I've walked so many people through this where they're like, I remember I was i had a client, she was in um ah enterprise sales.
00:38:42
Speaker
So she would lock down a ah client and she would easily make six figures in commission. yep right yeah And she's like, I have to get out of this. Right. I can't do it anymore. yeah right she's making mean She's making more than I was making, but she's just like, can't do it.
00:38:58
Speaker
yeah And so her path, it wasn't overnight, but we took baby steps to get her. i was like, okay, what's your number that you need to hit outside of, because you're not going to get your enterprise sales numbers, commissions right away. It's not going to happen. Right.
00:39:14
Speaker
ah Because the shovel's not as big. You don't have as big of a boulder to move. right i was like, what's the what's the number you need to feel confident? And we worked towards that number. yeah right Once you hit that number, it took about six months.
00:39:27
Speaker
She quit her job. wow and yeah They had to make some adjustments in their lifestyle for sure for a short amount of time, though. But way worth it. oh totally way worth it And she's killing it now.
00:39:38
Speaker
Gosh, isn't that great? yeah Such a good story. So there's totally a way, there's totally a path. Yeah, and maybe it is to keep your current job, but work on something on the side until you see that revenue start clipping and know that if I step off this cliff over here and step into that, the revenue is just going to get even better.
00:39:56
Speaker
That's right. that's That's an uncommon path, folks. Let's get on that one. And like, here's the thing. Like for me, I learn way more failing and you know, nothing against Wells Fargo principle, but like they don't let you really fail other than they give you a review every Lord knows 12 months and you hate your life and you take your little percent bonus and then you move on. Yes.
00:40:22
Speaker
There's a better way. There's a better way. And I think that we're called to create like we talked about. So, okay. Love your story. Any final thoughts? Land in the plane. Yeah. I mean, listen, like they're the the biggest message that is beating in my heart at this very moment is 90% of entrepreneurs, and less than 10%, depending on what state you look at, of the population is an entrepreneur. Right, right. There's not many of us.
00:40:50
Speaker
ah Business owners, entrepreneurs, call what you want. there's There's very few of us in relation to the general population. Mm-hmm. So that being said, 90% of the 10%, they're not going to have you know multi-million dollar businesses.
00:41:07
Speaker
And they won't need it. right And I think oftentimes, we are we're i know this is certainly the case for me, but we we take on building a business. It's like Saul's armor.
00:41:20
Speaker
Mm-hmm. So we put on the armor that we think we should be wearing, and in actuality, we're building somebody else's vision of that business. That's right. that's right So if there's one thing that I would implore anybody listening to this to do who is in business is to step back and say...
00:41:37
Speaker
Am I building actually building the business that I want? Or am i is it being built by default? right Am I designing this or is it being built by default? Default or design?
00:41:49
Speaker
Yep, good. And if you're building it by design, great. right If it's intentional and it serves you and it sets you up you're and you're also adding immense value to the marketplace, awesome. yep Keep at it. Go for it.
00:42:01
Speaker
yeah If you find those pockets or maybe it's your entire business where it's like, oh, hey, this is ah you know This is somebody else's vision, the same mind, is to take that step back and at the very least say, what would it look like if I could make the money that I wanted to make?
00:42:19
Speaker
And you build this business in a way that is fun and enjoyable for me. It's possible. So good. how do they get ahold of How do our listeners get a hold of you if they wanted to reach out?
Conclusion and Call to Action
00:42:31
Speaker
JustinWise.net There it is. Easiest way. Easiest way. Okay. Well, thank you one for your time, Justin. Thank you for listening. Uh, listeners. We appreciate it until next time.
00:42:44
Speaker
If you're feeling that Jumanji drumbeat inside of you, it's not too late, no matter what age you are to take a step in the uncommon path and direction. I'm here to help support. I know Justin is as well.
00:42:57
Speaker
Thank you for listening until next time. go be on time. That's all for this episode brought to you by Uncommon Wealth Partners. Be sure to visit UncommonWealth.com to learn more about our services.
00:43:09
Speaker
Don't miss an episode as we introduce you to inspiring people who are actively pursuing an uncommon life.