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R.W.W. Greene
1.8k Plays1 year ago
R.W.W. Greene is a New Hampshire USA writer with an MA in Fine Arts, which he exorcises in dive bars and coffee shops. He is a frequent panelist at the Boskone Science Fiction and Fantasy Convention in Boston, and his work has been in Stupefying Stories, Daily Science Fiction, New Myths, and Jersey Devil Press, among others. Greene is a past board member of the New Hampshire Writers’ Project. He keeps bees, collects typewriters, and lives with writer/artist spouse Brenda and two cats. He has published three books: The Light Years, Twenty-Five to Life, and Mercury Rising, all with Angry Robot Books.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host Ken Vellante. Editor and producer Peter Bauer.
Interview with R.W.W. Green Begins
00:00:17
Speaker
Alright, this is Ken Vellante with the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast, and we have author, R.W.W. Green. Rob, welcome to the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast. Hey, thanks for having me, Ken. Good to see you.
00:00:35
Speaker
Yeah, it's really nice to reach you from the coast of Oregon over to New Hampshire. New Hampshire, I think it was more properly pronounced by me. Great to connect with you.
Discussing 'Mercury Rising' and Its Origins
00:00:53
Speaker
I just want to kick it off and mention I've read Mercury Rising and just
00:01:05
Speaker
I wanna tell you, I want you to tell listeners about the book a bit, you know, because...
00:01:14
Speaker
But first, I wanted to mention just for myself, what I love so much about it when first listening to it is because I was really trying to situate myself in whatever it was and with an alt history and a marvelous drop into thinking about speculative history and politics in the 70s.
00:01:38
Speaker
I found it so fun and connected to my kind of like DNA of Sci-Fi that I've read heavily in the 70s and 80s. So it was a nice drop-in but like a really fresh just like where am I for quite some time? Really really deeply enjoyed the novel and its unique Characteristics and where it takes you but
00:02:06
Speaker
Where did it come from, Rob? And tell us a bit about Mercury rising. The book kind of had its start right after the NASA space shuttle program got canceled. I was kind of irritated by that. So I wrote a short story called Gus Grissom and the Mercury Men, where I gave the Apollo 1 astronauts Grissom, Chaffee and White, they all died on the launch pad.
00:02:34
Speaker
I gave them a more dramatic ending, and that was basically the first chapter of Mercury Rising, that whole space battle that happened. Originally, that was Gus Grissom and Chaffee and White fighting us with their friends, the Communists, Yuri Gagarian, and all those guys. So that's kind of where it started, and I just kind of liked the idea of the
00:02:59
Speaker
the retro future Buck Rogers 1960s kind of thing. And then I started thinking about using eight tracks as computer storage and disco and just decided that I wanted to keep going in that world. And so I wrote an alt history where Robert Oppenheimer came up with an atomic space engine
00:03:30
Speaker
right after he came up with a bomb, we were able to get to the moon in 1950 and get to Mars not too far after that. And then the aliens showed up. So that was kind of the basic idea of the book.
Evolution of Green's Book Series
00:03:46
Speaker
When I first came up with the idea for the series, I had an idea of five books, one for every decade between 1970 and current day 2020.
00:03:58
Speaker
where I was going to try to explore the tropes of the science fiction popular at the time. So each book would have kind of a different kind of thing, like the 1980s would be very cyberpunk and that kind of thing. My agent kind of talked me down to three books, and then because of sales and that kind of stuff, the three books turned into two.
00:04:22
Speaker
So the next book in the series, Earth Retrograde, the final book in the series, Earth Retrograde is coming out in October of this year.
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah, I saw the um, I saw that uh, october 24th and uh, I uh, I was I was excited to see that and I I I also think um, sometimes I like to follow series or something about that nice Fall release. I don't know october november that I that I so uh, I noticed that and i'm really really excited to hear about that and um
00:04:56
Speaker
at the tantalizing idea that you put forth of, you know, you know, digging deep into the tropes of the time. But I just found I don't know the word play playfulness with it, where it was so
00:05:14
Speaker
It was fun. It was fun to be in the book. It was fun to have dialogue and to be in that kind of wild world. So everybody, yeah, Earth retrograde, October 24th, 2023. Right now you can listen or read to Mercury Rising, a real blast.
Green's Background and Writing Philosophy
00:05:36
Speaker
So you've done different things, Rob, I had read about, the high school teacher, you've done freelance, you've done print journalism. And so one of the things I ask is, when did you see yourself as an artist?
00:06:02
Speaker
That's an interesting question. I'm not, I'm not sure if I, if I would see myself as an artist even now, I think, I think I'm a pretty good writer, but I think I'm a craftsman rather than an artist. You know, I like, you know, I, I kind of see myself as someone who can build a pretty good chair, you know, and the chair holds you and is comfortable. And, you know, as a, as a craft, I guess the craft sometimes can transcend to art.
00:06:31
Speaker
You know, maybe I'll make a super duper beautiful museum caliber chair at some point in time. But I think for the most part, I make good, comfortable chairs. I was thinking about this question. I also teach college on the side. And I was having a conversation with one of my students because we decided to do a deep dive into Pink Floyd's The Wall this semester.
The Intent and Impact of Art
00:07:00
Speaker
I get to pick the theme.
00:07:02
Speaker
So we were talking about what makes art. Is art something that has to provoke? Is art something that comes from inspiration? And if so, if it's inspiration or intent to provoke, then what comes next is you have to have the skills to pull it off. So everybody has, I've got this idea for a book, or I've got this idea for a thing. But if they don't have the skills to pull it off, it never quite makes it. It never quite makes it out.
00:07:30
Speaker
Then again, if you've got the skills, but you don't have the idea, what does that make you? Does that make you artless? I have this conversation with myself and my students fairly often, it's like, what is the difference between art and craft? There's a well-crafted sentence and a well-crafted sentence can become art in the right light, I guess, with the right response.
00:07:59
Speaker
You know, there's also the idea is that once you create something, you know, it's kind of like a bowling ball. You send it off down the lane and you've got no control over what happens to it. No matter how many body movements you make, you know, you try to get it out of the gutter or whatever. So, you know, who's to say that as it kind of goes down the lane that it's not perceived as art, but, you know, maybe it was just intended as a story, you know, so. Yeah.
00:08:22
Speaker
Well, now, I mean, you really helped me so much. There's something about the body movements of the that ball that you'll never control that you know for sure where it's going, but it doesn't go exactly there. And no, I was thinking, too, when you mentioned, you know, working with the student on the wall and Pink Floyd's the wall and that always had great resonance on the themes of our right of censorship or like what education systems do. And, you know, the transgressive
00:08:52
Speaker
Part of the artist, you know and calling out things about society. So
00:08:58
Speaker
Definitely definitely vibe with that really well. So what I wanted to ask Rob on that, you know talking art and craft You know your writer and I would look at your mercury rising as a difficult achievement that you reached of embodying a very
00:09:24
Speaker
a different time as far as maybe like tone and feel, um, and, and doing that fresh, like as, as a, what I would view as a piece of art, but, uh, going back into it with arts and craft. Rob, what's art? What do you think art is? That's a, you know, it's, it's kind of like when they were, when they were debating obscenity in, in Congress, you know, it was like, they didn't know what obscenity was, but they knew it wouldn't have got them hard. Um,
00:09:52
Speaker
I think art may be the same kind of thing, you know, you don't know what art is, but when you see it, and it stops you, and it makes you think in an arrest you. I think you're not in a criminal term, but you just see it as an arresting image and arresting story and arresting piece of music. I think it's it's there's a
00:10:15
Speaker
Way back in my high school teaching days, we always talked about poetry and I was always trying to get the kids to kind of define poetry. And there was a quote we used to look at was that poetry is man's attempt to explore his own amazement. So it's like, there's this moment of like, I'm trying to capture this amazement, this feeling I have and make it into a common experience. So I'm trying to take this thing
00:10:44
Speaker
And I'm trying to make this, use this kind of metaphor, this data compression on this piece of paper or in this image or with this song that's going to bring out the same emotions in you as they brought out in me. And I think if that can happen, then that is art. If I'm causing you to have a reaction, the same kind of reaction, emotional reaction that I had,
00:11:14
Speaker
that inspired the piece. I think that's art. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, sure does. I like the part, too. It comes up once in a while when I talk with folks of like the know it when you see and I and the part about amazement really captured me with what you said, right? Because that maybe it's amazement or awe or I don't understand at all. But amazement doesn't have to mean it's good. Amazement just means it could be just that WTF moment. It's like, you know,
00:11:43
Speaker
You know, what the hell is going on here?
Sci-Fi as a Mirror to Society
00:11:45
Speaker
You know, that's a, amazement is not necessarily a good thing. It's just a, I like your awe. Cause you're also can be struck, struck with awe. And it's not always a great thing to be struck with awe. You know, the bombing of Baghdad, you know, all those, all those lights and stuff like that, the shock and awe kind of thing. It wasn't a great thing that they were trying to awe people. They were just trying to cause them to cower, uh, in, in, in fear at the, at the power of the experience, I guess.
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah, there's that nuance. I know of some of the root of the word adore contains elements of fear, not only of adoration towards, but there's a power dynamic as well, which I think it's really interesting to look at words like that. And I've done a lot of poetry recently on the show, and I feel about poetry that way.
00:12:40
Speaker
I always stumble when I try to explain it, but it's like, how do people capture the true depth of a, of, of, of an emotion or a feeling in, in this crystallized form somehow? Like just looking at it, how did they get all that there? And, um, really enjoy that, that part of it. Um, for you, uh, Rob, um,
00:13:03
Speaker
just ask about the role of art itself. You know, I think looking at science fiction and looking at things of temperature and climate and your books, you know, Mercury Rising, Earth, you know, Earth Retrograde, just wondering about
00:13:29
Speaker
the science and the dealing with the times and the role of art, do you see what you're doing here is having a particular intent? What is the role of art? In science fiction in particularly or because science fiction has its own kind of thing where it's supposed to be trying to
00:13:53
Speaker
you know, show us where we're going and say, you know, look, this is how it might turn out. And maybe we should do something different. You know, one of my favorite movies is Soylent Green with Charlton Heston, you know, 1970, you know, you know, talking about climate change and talking about overpopulation. And, you know, of course, it brings it to the, to the zenith of, you know, Soylent Green is, you know, spoilers, so in the greenest people.
00:14:21
Speaker
You know, but it is that kind of thing that is trying to sound the Jeremiah and say, look, this is where we're going and maybe we shouldn't go there. I think science fiction in particular, that's one of its purposes, is to like look ahead and kind of like maybe think about this. You know, sure, we can create an AI, but should we create an AI? You know, maybe we can create, you know,
00:14:49
Speaker
colonies on Mars, but is that a good idea? Resource question. Yeah, like on the resource question. Yeah, that's where the science fiction kind of comes into it. But every piece of writing, every story is, I don't know, humans are very interesting in that we love story, we always create story.
00:15:12
Speaker
If we don't get a text message quick enough from our spouse, we send her a message and we don't get a message quick enough. We rush to the idea of that something terrible has happened. Do we fill in the blanks? She didn't respond, which means that there was a car accident or something happened. So we try to fill in and answer those questions with story. And so the storyteller, the filmmaker, writer, whatever is kind of like filling in that
00:15:41
Speaker
that gap, that need for story with something that maybe doesn't have a message. I mean, they, every story has a message and every story in its own way is political, but you know, they're, they're trying to like fill in that need for story with something that, uh, amazes, you know, that Oz, I guess that, uh, entertains while still, you know, giving some kind of like direction and letting you know,
00:16:09
Speaker
what the author thinks about. There's a book, could I teach writing? And there's a book called Everything's An Argument. And the idea being that kind of every statement you make, every thing you write is some kind of argument. If I write the sky is blue, I'm trying to convince you that the sky is blue. If I'm writing you a book called Mercury Rising, I'm trying to convince you that you should read this book and that the characters are interesting and that the world is interesting
00:16:39
Speaker
Every sentence I put in that book is trying to convince you, the reader of that. So anybody who says that science fiction is not political, science fiction is not this, they're totally wrong. The very fact that in Star Trek, the phasers of a stunt setting tells you so much about the world of Star Trek and that they
00:17:05
Speaker
They start with trying to stun you first, and if that doesn't work, then they'll go up. But they're talking about the importance of life with that stun setting. And it's kind of an amazing thing when you think about it, which I do. Yeah. No, no. Thank you for mentioning that.
00:17:23
Speaker
I hadn't really placed that idea within the context of, yeah, that, well, thank you. Just thinking about the first step of not destroying, right? Of trying to preserve on some basic level. What about the world of, with what you'd like to say about Earth retrograde? So you talking about the ideas that you had in your head about
00:17:49
Speaker
Um, we're at the book, uh, the, the place that inhabits, uh, what about earth retrograde? Uh, just in general, where does that find the, where will that find the reader? Uh, what kind of place? Well, one of the, one of the reasons I wrote this kind of series and started in the seventies, I feel like the seventies and I'm a child of the seventies, you know, but I feel like the seventies is a time where we started to get things right.
Alternate History in Green's Sequel
00:18:14
Speaker
You know, we had, you know, the environmental movement, we had the truth and justice movement. We had a lot of civil rights stuff going on. We had a lot of gay rights stuff going on. So, you know, granted we had Nixon, but we also had a lot of like good stuff, like good social, social justice stuff happening. And then the eighties happened and Reagan happened and all that kind of stuff. But even Nixon had a universal income program. You know, Nixon had a,
00:18:41
Speaker
had a universal health care program that he was... OSHA. Yeah, all that stuff was happening that was shut down by the conservatives in Congress at that time because they thought it was too communist. So the 70s were a time where I thought we really kind of started to get it right. And by eliminating things in the book world, like Vietnam didn't happen because the Cold War didn't happen because
00:19:10
Speaker
We and the Russians were friends because we and the Russians together to defend the Earth, right? Which is, strangely enough, another Reagan idea, because Reagan asked Gorbachev at one point in time during a meeting they had, like, you know, Mr. Gorbachev, if we were invaded, would you come to our rescue? And they had that conversation about, like, you know, if an alien actually came to Earth, would the Russians come and help us out? And we would help the Russians out, which was actually a conversation that Reagan had.
00:19:38
Speaker
So, you know, the idea and then Mercury rising to our Earth retrograde takes place in the late 90s, you know, which was up is, you know, that's when the kind of the story comes to an end. And, you know, Y2K is going on and, you know, all the things. But it's a it's a 90s that was changed by having the aliens come. So it's not the 90s we knew. It's not your Clinton 90s. It's, you know, a 90s where, you know,
00:20:04
Speaker
We've been kicked off the planet, you know, it's because the original owners of the planet have come back and said, you know, guys, it's time for you to leave. You've got this other place to go. Um, so it's not the nineties, you know, uh, but hopefully it'll, it'll least rhyme a little bit with the nineties that we remember. Yeah. So.
00:20:26
Speaker
Well, that's such a really excited to hear hear about that. And, you know, we're recording here in April going into May and I'm really excited to pick up that pick up that story, I think.
00:20:40
Speaker
uh... hearing about your you know your approach and um... i think uh... actually is really refreshing to hear components of your uh... analysis of the seventies just like generally uh... politically you know i was born in seventy two so at this kind of lake ghostly carryover from what i know about my young parents you know and the seventies into the eighties but you know i've even written and i talked to my kids about lake
Generational Perspectives on Societal Changes
00:21:08
Speaker
just how messed up it was. Like when I grew up in the 80s, like I always thought like the world was going to blow up like a nuclear like Holocaust. And I'm like, you kind of like giggle or be horrified by that or whatever your reaction was. But I just remember thinking about that one day. I'm like, man, that's kind of wrong. The hoist upon like a culture and a society like this kind of constant, you know, threat of annihilation.
00:21:34
Speaker
The kids all are completely aware that the climate is screwed, right? And they know it's screwed. And I think that's why we see so many kids who are anxious and depressed and all this kind of stuff now. The pandemic was an apocalypse in its own way. Apocalypse is really something, it's not something that ends everything, it's just something after which nothing is ever the same. So I think that whole
00:22:02
Speaker
pandemic thing was kind of a bellwether to what our children and our grandchildren are going to face down the pike. And I think the kids are very aware of that. And I had a student in college classes this semester who is literally very angry every day that we, his forebearers, their earlier generations have made things so impossible for the Gen Z and the Gen Y and the Gen after that.
00:22:32
Speaker
And I can't really blame them. They're the first couple of generations that are not going to do as well as their parents did. They can't afford a house. They can't afford any of this kind of thing. So while we were, you and I, because I was born in 71, so I had the same kind of experience with the Reagan era, and we were going to get blown up at any point in time. And we've outlawed the Soviet Union. We began bombing in five minutes. We've got all that stuff in our heads
00:23:01
Speaker
the Iran Contra, all that kind of stuff. Even while we had that, at least in the 90s, we had that moment of we could breathe for a little while before it got crazy again. I don't know that the kids today, the younger generation are going to have that.
00:23:23
Speaker
you know
00:23:44
Speaker
be like that. I reject that idea. I don't want to live like that. For me, I'm like, yeah, damn. There's a difference. There's a difference. One of the things I think I talk about too is there's a lazy use of the power of being older, of having faults and kind of assumptions about things. I find that even with labor where
00:24:13
Speaker
the the
00:24:26
Speaker
other people put up with and they're saying, and more pro-union, more, I'm not saying it's all wonderful, but I'm saying the organizing climate for a group in an age of workers who just reject the nonsense that we in some way have accepted is
00:24:44
Speaker
very good for resistance or at least the labor movement or or the environmental movement of saying, nah, all that stuff's bullshit or a bunch of that is we got to do it different. So I find it inspiring. You know, I agree. I agree. I mean, I'm a union guy myself, you know, teachers union and blue collar union, depending on what job they've had.
Lessons from the Pandemic
00:25:03
Speaker
And it is nice to see that. I mean, the pandemic taught us a lot about, you know, what's important, you know, is it important to
00:25:11
Speaker
you know, to value yourself. Is it important to, you know, take care of what you need? Is it important to be creative? And, you know, the, I think the kids have said in a resounding yes, it is important to do this stuff. And, you know, and if they can figure out a way to do it in a four day a week, awesome. You know, if they can figure out a way to do it, you know, working from home, fantastic. You know, I think, I think the kids are all right.
00:25:40
Speaker
You know, that's, that's kind of my, where I, where I'm from is the kids, the kids are, you know, uh, you know, you and I are, are, are Gen X and that kind of weird little generation of ours. But I think the, you know, I wish that these kids today had the world that we had back in, you know, when they could have still made a kind of a climate change turnaround kind of thing. Um, I wish we had been,
00:26:08
Speaker
But we didn't have the internet and we didn't have all this kind of stuff. I wish we had been as savvy as they are. But we were not, you know. Yeah, I think it's a great I think it's a great discussion. And, you know, I think in in, you know, it's in looking at
00:26:26
Speaker
you know, at your works. And, you know, thinking about alt history, I've had some some other science fiction authors like BL Blanchard and Sasha Stronach. And just like I find it so invigorating to take a look at really kind of jagged deep problems and just play with like where you place them and can interact with them, because I find it it's spurring to the mind.
00:26:55
Speaker
like science fiction has always been spurring spurring to my speculative mind and Aim towards problem-solving or just fun as well, but you can solve problems in a fun way, too. So Really really dig on that. I'm gonna jump. I'm gonna jump to a another big question Rob And it's the the title of the show and I wanted to just have you take a crack at it right now talking about
Philosophical Musings in Storytelling
00:27:25
Speaker
Uh, why is there something rather than nothing? And I would just say that folks have, um, had a go at this one from science philosophy or absurdism or whatever angle you want to take at it. I was thinking about that because I've, like I said, I've listened to a couple of your shows, three, four or five, maybe six of your shows and kind of preparation for that, you know, and it's why is there something rather than nothing? Um,
00:27:56
Speaker
And I, what kind of the, you know, there's the, the obvious kind of like, you know, nature pours a vacuum and every time there's a space that, you know, it gets filled by something, you know. So, but then again, if you, if you don't have nature pouring the vacuum, then that's nothing in which case, why is there nature? You know, I'm a, I'm a secular humanist, you know, I'm an atheist. I don't, I don't believe in, you know, God and that kind of thing. And, you know, you look back at the, the physics of the Big Bang and
00:28:26
Speaker
The whole idea is that everything was compressed to the point of a singularity until it exploded. The pressure of that. And then you think about what I was saying earlier about how the human mind needs story. So it comes up with these terrible scenarios and the absence of information. I haven't heard from my son all day. He must have broken his leg and been hit by a car.
00:28:56
Speaker
You must be in the hospital in the coma and things like that. We're creating that story that doesn't exist. And it may be that if there is a central truth to the universe, maybe it's creation. And I don't mean creation with a capital C, a directed creation. I think that, you know,
00:29:24
Speaker
We tend to go from a point of potential to actuality every single time. If there is the potential, then it becomes the actual. It's always kind of like the force, the energy is always running downhill. And then it pools. And then once it gets to a point where it reaches capacity, it runs downhill again.
00:29:54
Speaker
And I think that's probably why there's always something rather than nothing, because it may start small, but once it achieves a point where potential energy cannot be held by whatever is holding it back, then it becomes something. That's kind of my thought on that, because it's a very interesting question.
00:30:24
Speaker
Why are you making a podcast? You could have not made a podcast, but you chose to make a podcast because you wanted to put an idea out into the world, either because you're looking for an answer or because you want to generate the conversation. You chose to make something rather than leave it as nothing.
00:30:47
Speaker
You know, it's just like thing, you know, some of it's about, you know, wanting to leave a mark on the world. And some of it I think is just, you know, that's just what we are, you know, why, you know, why do we make TV shows? Why do we, you know, we go out to our backyard and build a patio where there's just grass, you know, why? Because we have the capacity to, I don't know, maybe that's my answer.
00:31:15
Speaker
No, I really enjoyed so much that. And I think one of the pieces was thinking about actuality and potentiality. It's like a lot of ways we look at things or talk about things philosophically, like being and becoming. And yeah, there's this
00:31:34
Speaker
a creative drive behind it all. When you were describing how things compile and composite and reach a point where they need to surge forth,
00:31:48
Speaker
You know, I really connect with that because I just did a recent episode with somebody who's a botanist. Right. And just like it's it's this that seed is going to pop out, that sun's going to hit at that point. And there's something simple, I think, in in powerful connected to that. I want to ask you, Rob, just a bit.
00:32:12
Speaker
I've taught at the university level for a short time, quite some time ago. And one of the things I get interested in is creators like yourself, thinkers like yourself, teaching and connecting with creativity and art.
Changes in Education and Music Consumption
00:32:33
Speaker
What's that experience like?
00:32:36
Speaker
like for you and trying to help creators and thinkers develop. Well, one of the one of the interesting things about college education now is that it's become very, very transactional, you know, where once upon a time, you know, you went to college in order to get well rounded to kind of become enlightened, to get smart, you know, to like, you know, you get to liberal arts education and things like that.
00:33:06
Speaker
And now you're not seeing that as much like the college that I teach at, you know, the, the biggest or most popular major is business, you know, because they want to get the degree in order to get the job, you know, so if they could just, I think, I think if they just could just pay for the, for the diploma, they wouldn't have bothered with the whole college experience. Most of the kids, like if they could like fork out a hundred thousand dollars and get the diploma.
00:33:32
Speaker
And, you know, just just just go from there. I think they have their receipt. Yeah, they've got the receipt. So it's a very transactional kind of thing. So, you know, I teach college comp college composition where I teach them how to write, you know, in various forms, just kinds of essays. And I teach sophomore seminar, which is a research based class where I pick the theme. And it's one of the reasons why I picked
00:34:01
Speaker
the wall this time. Pink Floyd's the wall because you look at music in terms of the way music has evolved from the chamber music to the madrigals to finally they're getting the Victrola that they could wind up and actually have music in the home and really democratize music and everybody could have music. But you only have one song on that record.
00:34:28
Speaker
And then, you know, the LP, which allowed, you know, more music and, you know, then, you know, one of the first things they started doing when they had the long play record is they started to put a musical theater on it. So musical theater came to the home and everybody could listen to Hello, Dolly, whatever it is. So you didn't have to go to Broadway anymore to do it, which democratized it more. And then, you know, the concept album kind of came in where
00:34:53
Speaker
you know, like people like Rosemary Clooney were doing like, I'm going to do a record of love songs. And that was the first time you could have like a whole theme album of love songs or Christmas songs or whatever. And then you've got, you know, the Beatles and Sergeant Pepper and the theme based concept album. Then you've got like the narrative kind of album, like the wall or Tommy or things like that. And then you've got from there, you've got,
00:35:21
Speaker
the CD and the CD was able to do 15 songs on it. So you got even more songs. But and then you've got nowadays you've got the streaming where. And I've done polls on this with my students. It's very rare that they buy the whole album anymore because they just stream the one song they like.
00:35:43
Speaker
So if you can imagine like listening to the wall nowadays, you'd only hear three songs, right? You'd only hear, you know, um, wish you would hear a comfortably numb and, um, brick in the wall, right? You'd only hear those three songs. You wouldn't hear the entire thing. So we talked a lot about that. And, you know, we started listening to like some of the music, like, um, Lord's pure heroin is a concept album, but they had never listened to any song behind, but they hadn't heard any song other than Royals.
00:36:13
Speaker
So when they actually listened to the entire album, they realized how self-referential it is and how it talks to, you know, everything talks to itself. And, you know, we looked at Frank Ocean stuff and we looked at, you know, My Chemical Romance, My Beautiful Dark, you know, all those kind of things. So we listened to a lot of records. And I think one of the things I was able to do is make them aware that
00:36:40
Speaker
these albums are put together in a way that you want to listen to the entire thing. Except maybe not so much anymore because musicians are realizing that everybody is Spotifying everything. So we did the research and found out that lyrical complexity is just as complex as it ever has been, but the lyrical complexity of popular songs has gone down because the popular songs are the ones we can hear
00:37:09
Speaker
in five seconds and jam to them. So anything that becomes popular now is more musically simple, has a more simple theme, and it just kind of catches our ear. We also talked about, because Beyonce's Lemonade, which is a
00:37:29
Speaker
came out a couple of years ago, and she made you listen to the entire album by putting a film out. So she put the film out with a musical background. So she released it first, right? So you had to listen to the entire thing, Beyonce, and she can force you to do stuff like that. You know, so just, you know, we, that was the intro, one of the interesting things about talking about like how music has changed. And
00:37:55
Speaker
You know, you've got a couple of the kids who are like, they're going back to vinyl and they actually have like listening parties and that kind of stuff, but it's, you know, most of them are like, you know, they, they, it's just, you know, they, they listen to the one song or they have the, they have the, you know, the, the algorithm refer them songs like the song they listened to, which maybe helps them discover new music, but it doesn't help them get the entire picture of the, of the record.
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's it's it's such a different thing, I think, in thinking about listening. But I tell you, I talked about this once. I had this really cool listening experience because my child Aiden is very much into a wide array of music. But one particular kind of time frame was maybe like
00:38:44
Speaker
you know, popular metal, like aspects of new metal and post metal and stuff. And just stuff I hadn't, like, I may be heard in the background, but I was just listening. My listening habits were so different that there was a kind of a space of music where I would have expected to encounter it. Never really did. But then was able to rediscover it with with them in listening to it. It was strange to be like,
00:39:11
Speaker
going back 20 years in learning through my child, who's listening to the albums really into each release. And I was like, it's kind of a unique experience to be taught in that type of way. And I knew it at the time as well. Yeah, I got a buddy of mine. He's, he's 80 and he was a high school teacher most of his life. And he says, you know, you know, it's time to stop being a teacher when you don't recognize the kids' music anymore, you know, cause you're not, you know, you're not in there with them. Um,
00:39:41
Speaker
And I think it's kind of, I mean, I love, I love music. I'm a, I'm a music person. I listen to all kinds of music. You know, um, I, I am actually a fan of Taylor Swift, you know, as well. This show is a huge, swifty, uh, huge, swifty show. We had the, um, the, uh, animation director for miss Americana, at least Kelly on
00:40:04
Speaker
That's cool. Yes. Yeah. I had this conversation with my, my, you know, a couple students and, you know, we, we have this idea that she is the new Springsteen, you know, she is the kind of the, uh, the new boss of the, of the, of the, I like her set and, you know, cause she can do anything, you know, and, you know, she may not be the best singer, but lyrically she's fantastic. She re reinvents herself. Um, you know, she,
00:40:30
Speaker
And another young person I was talking to says, if you don't like Taylor Swift, it's because she hasn't made your album yet. She will make your album the album that makes you fall for her eventually, but maybe she just hasn't made it yet.
00:40:47
Speaker
It's a tantalizing idea. It's a tantalizing idea. I used to have a kid when I was teaching high school. He used to come and visit me every morning. He got me into Kendrick Lamar, and I really got into Kendrick Lamar. He really started getting me into that lyric-dense rap, that same kind of way. I'm still not a big EDM fan, no matter what the kids say, the students say.
00:41:13
Speaker
They've certainly opened my eyes to new art. There was a young dude in one of my college classes who introduced me to Takakor and Takakor, I don't know if you've heard about this. I haven't, but tell me. Yeah, Takakor was a book that was written right after, kind of in the early aughts after 9-11 started, all the anti-Muslim fuhrer started going on
Music as Resistance and Cultural Commentary
00:41:42
Speaker
And this guy wrote a book about this young Muslim man who moved into a house in which there was a Islamic punk band. And so they were like playing punk music and drinking and having sex and all that kind of stuff, which is all very haram. And his mother was comfortable with the moving there because they had a prayer flag up and this kind of stuff. But as a result of this book, there was an entire brief
00:42:10
Speaker
Muslim Islam punk movement called Takakor that happened with all these different bands and it was this really big thing and And then now there's a schism between you know, what is Takakor? What is not Takakor? But the whole idea of this like this, you know is Islamic Punk, you know Raging against the same thing that you know other punks were raging against you know but also raging against
00:42:40
Speaker
racism of America in post 9 11 America Which is something I had never heard of this, you know And so I you know, of course I got the book and read the book and I've been listening to music and this kind of stuff I can't understand a lot of it because I I have no Arabic or any of the other languages they're singing in but you know the you can definitely feel the rage and the music, you know the energy and the music and I
00:43:07
Speaker
You've got people in the audience who are wearing hijab. You've got people in the audience who are punk, but some of them don't drink because it's haram. But some do. And it's just that really interesting youth movement that I learned a lot about from this particular student. And I've gone on a deep dive on that sense.
00:43:29
Speaker
Yeah. I think, uh, I might be near one on my own. That's how it happens. You know, part of the infectious aspect of the, of, of the ideas. Yeah. TAQWA.
00:43:42
Speaker
Yeah, thanks so much. Earlier, a long time ago, I was really influenced. I was really lucky to come in contact with a lot of Washington DC punk history through a very good friend of mine, Sean Brown, who was in the bands Swizz and Dag Nasty. And just learning just...
00:44:05
Speaker
that power of punk, like it's not my top style of music, but it always serves and always is something I drop into more and more and just and just does it for me like other things don't. And so that's why when you're talking about I mean, I love I love those stories and it's because it's like resistance against crap or resistance against stupidity or something like I'm down, I'm listening, you know. Yeah, no, totally.
00:44:37
Speaker
Yeah, go ahead. No, it's not my favorite. Punk is not my favorite either, but it's something that I return to quite often. I listen to anything as long as it's good. But I may think if I'm going to die tomorrow, I'll probably listen to a lot of Miles Davis. But if I'm not going to die tomorrow, then I'll branch out a little bit.
00:45:08
Speaker
Rob, I want I want folks to come and come in contact with your work.
Where to Find Green's Work
00:45:15
Speaker
Our W. W. Green here, sci-fi author, how folks run into your material, your books, your thoughts. You have a man, there's a lot of a lot that a lot to share. And I'm certainly thinking like, you know, music, art and all these things. But why don't you leave folks to, you know, find in more of your work?
00:45:29
Speaker
Hey, uh...
00:45:38
Speaker
Sure, I've got a website that's rwwgreen.com. It's kind of like information central, links to the books and this kind of thing. I'm on the dying social media site, Twitter, at rwwgreen. I also Instagram at rwwgreen. And I've got a sub-stack newsletter I put out every couple of weeks called 21st Century Blues.
00:46:08
Speaker
Uh, that I, you know, I write about, you know, anything from, you know, from, I don't know, school shootings to music to whatever kind of comes out of my head in those two weeks. Um, you know, the books are in Barnes and Noble. They're in your local bookstore. Uh, they're on, um, bookshop.org. You know, uh, they're published by angry robot, which is a science fiction,
00:46:36
Speaker
Press in the UK. So pretty much anywhere they speak English, you can find them or order them. Oh, it's X. It's it's it's it's it's really great to chat with you. And hey, Rob, what about what about what about you? You want to just drop a little bit about your own playing of music and your relationship with the guitar and stuff like that?
00:47:01
Speaker
I'm a shitty acoustic player. I'm a bad acoustic player, but I play and I don't play for anybody's enjoyment but my own and my cats and sometimes my wife. If I could have picked something to be artistically gifted in, it might have been music.
00:47:19
Speaker
But unfortunately, I didn't work out. Well, it's great to chat about art and music and power of music and poetry in your writing.
Closing Thoughts and Gratitude
00:47:35
Speaker
Really appreciate that. I tell you, the Substack format, I'm going to check out your stuff some more. I've subscribed to Sharon Nova, who's been a guest on the show.
00:47:48
Speaker
Hannah Walker Brown and I've just come in contact with some really great sub stack of writing So thanks for being there. I'm gonna check that out everybody check out our WW green sub stack and Really great pleasure talking with you and really just the stimulation about the ideas I really would just want to thank you for the work of art you created mercury rising and
00:48:17
Speaker
and its, I don't know, its own particular resonance for a dude like me reading it out here in Oregon in 2023. So great pleasure to meet you, Rob, and really thank you for coming out to something rather than nothing. Yeah, same here. Really good conversation. You know, if I ever see you in real life, I'll buy you a beer or a cup of coffee, whatever you want. We'll have another conversation.
00:48:45
Speaker
Thanks so much, brother, and everybody, make sure you check out our WW Green Mercury Rising in the fall of 2023, Earth Retrograde. Have a great day, Rob. All right, you too, man. Take care. This is something rather than nothing.