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Episode 25: How to Help Your Kids Understand God's Purpose for Their Life
64 Plays5 years ago
Sally Clarkson is a best-selling author, world-renowned speaker, and beloved figure who has dedicated her life to supporting and inspiring countless women to live into the story God has for them to tell. Sally hosts a weekly podcast "At Home With Sally." Sally has been married to her husband Clay for almost forty years and together they founded and run Whole Heart Ministries an international ministry seeking to support families in raising faithful, healthy, and loving children, in an increasingly difficult culture. Sally has four children, Sarah, Joel, Nathan, and Joy.
Key Idea: Our goal as parents isn’t just to raise good kids - it’s to raise kids who catch a dream for God’s purposes in their life.
Mentioned in this episode:
Awaking Wonder: Opening Your Child’s Heart to the Beauty of Learning
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This podcast is produced and edited by Angie Elkins Media, Inc.
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Transcript
Introduction to Root Like Faith
00:00:08
Speaker
Well, hello. I'm Patrick Schwenk and I am so thankful that you are listening in with me today at Root Like Faith. It is our deepest desire to encourage and equip men and women to be rooted in God's word, transformed by the love of Jesus and moved by his mission in the power of the Holy Spirit. Nothing is more important.
Sally Clarkson's New Book and Educational Philosophy
00:00:25
Speaker
Well, today I'm really excited because we have another special guest, someone Ruth and I have known now, I guess for over 10 years. And so we're going to be talking with her about her new book and how to open a child's heart.
00:00:36
Speaker
to the beauty of learning. And so I can't wait to share today's episode with you and introduce you to our guests. And so let's get started.
Sally's Ministry and Family Mission
00:00:48
Speaker
Well, my guest today is Sally Clarkson. Sally is a bestselling author, world renowned speaker and beloved figure who has dedicated her life to supporting and inspiring countless women to live into the story that God has for them to tell. Sally hosts a weekly podcast called At Home with Sally. Sally has been married to her husband Clay for almost 40 years and together they founded and run Whole Heart Ministries.
00:01:11
Speaker
in international ministry seeking to support families in raising faithful, healthy, and loving children in an increasingly difficult culture. Sally has four children, Sarah, Joel, Nathan, and Joy.
Friendship and Mutual Influence
00:01:23
Speaker
Sally, welcome to Root Like Faith. Oh, it's so great to be with you again, Pat.
00:01:27
Speaker
Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm just excited. As we were talking before, I am so excited to talk with you. Clay was on the podcast just a couple months ago, and that was so much fun to talk with him. And so it's just really good to have the opportunity to talk with you today. So I really appreciate your time. We have known each other now for over 10 years, which is hard to believe.
00:01:49
Speaker
I know. It seems like longer. I mean, it seems like we've just known you all for much of our ministry life. Yeah, I know. I was talking to Ruth earlier just how you guys originally met, because I think you guys met through a mutual friend, and then Ruth attended a conference that you were putting on.
Impact of Educating the Wholehearted Child
00:02:06
Speaker
Um, that seems like forever ago. And so we just are so grateful for you. I was telling Clay when he was on that we just are so grateful for, for your influence in our life and in our marriage and family. And of course we've been out and we've done some conferences with you guys and have stayed at your home on multiple occasions. And so we had just are so thankful for, for your influence. I was telling Clay when he was on.
00:02:30
Speaker
the story about how when Ruth and I were like, I don't even know if we were married yet. We were either newly married or just, you know, about ready to get married. And we were at a friend's house. We have some dear friends, Michael and Barb Spencer, who just had a big impact on our marriage and family. He was my youth pastor. And this was 22 years ago. We were at their house and they gave us a copy of educating the wholehearted child. And so that was our first exposure to you and Clay almost 22 years ago.
00:02:59
Speaker
My goodness, I didn't know that story. That's really interesting. Yeah. So we it's funny to think back that that that they had given us that copy. Little did we know at the time that it was going to be maybe 10 years later or a little bit after that that you and Ruth would meet. And so, again, we're just grateful for
00:03:17
Speaker
your ministry and for the friendship that we've had with you guys. As we get started, I know we're going to be talking about your
Parenting and Childhood Reflections
00:03:24
Speaker
brand new book. You've got a brand new book called Awaking Wonder, Opening Your Child's Heart to the Beauty of Learning. So we're going to be talking a little bit about that. But before we do that, I'd love to just kind of hear your story about your family. And so I know we were talking a little bit earlier. I don't know that I've heard that part of your story. And so tell us a little bit about how you're parenting
00:03:46
Speaker
today is maybe different than the parenting you received when you were growing up. I mean, what was family life like for you as a child? Well, I was I was in a family of two older boys and then me. And I was born actually at about 31 or 32 weeks. I was only three pounds when I was born. I lost back down to two and a half pounds. And so just from that point of view, my mom was always a little bit
00:04:16
Speaker
afraid, you know, because I had asthma and pneumonia and ear infections and all this stuff when I grew up. But God gave me an extroverted sort of personality at the time. And so I didn't want to have to stay inside because I was the quote unquote sickly child. And so I would fake it. I mean, I would, you know, I was I wanted to play with the boys. The old story is, is that my grandmother gave
00:04:46
Speaker
my two brothers, a gun and holster set for Christmas. And she gave me a doll and I took the doll and I threw it across the room. And I went over and I jumped on top of my brother. These are older boys and older than me. And I shook his gun and I said, I want a gun. So, um, evidently I wasn't, uh, you know, probably the most, uh, quiet, easy child. So, um,
00:05:15
Speaker
As I look back over my life, my parents were believers. They became more and more committed to the Lord as they grew older. We grew up going to a church where I had more questions than I had answers. But I was more of the, I had a, how do you know, how do you say it, you know, kind of the 50s, 60s home where we had meals made for us and, you know, we had lots of
00:05:45
Speaker
I don't know, just normal life at school and all, but I always grew up thinking there should be more in life. There should be more in life. And my mom would say, why do you ask all these questions? And of course, by the time I got to when I was in later high school and early college age, there were the Vietnam Wars and there had been several assassinations and there Martin Luther King and all that went on with that and abortion and
00:06:14
Speaker
It was just a crazy time. And so I looked in every possible way that I could for more meaning in life and felt like I irritated my mom and dad anyway for having questions and challenging what they said. And I actually had a lot of time on my own. I mean, I feel like there are many things that I did and experience that no one even knew because I was kind of on my own. And, you know,
00:06:43
Speaker
later high school and college because I was the youngest child. And so I just longed to know that someone loved me as I was without changing. And that was a transformative thought for me as a young woman. Somebody literally knocked on my door in a 10th story dorm room. I've been praying if there's a God in the universe, could he please let me know him?
00:07:11
Speaker
And this very shy young woman knocked on my door, started sharing a survey with me, and then she said, now you don't have to go through this little book called The Four Spiritual Laws if you don't want to, but I thought God had sent an angel to start talking to me about him because I was longing. Is there any foundation? Is there any meaning to life in a kind of a pretty dark time in my life?
00:07:38
Speaker
So long story short, she got to the end of the prayer and said, you know, again, you don't have to do this, no pressure. I said, well, can I, can I pray the prayer? You know, it's one of those people that you never find. I just longed for unconditional love and I longed for, I just, I was probably 80 D when I was younger, still am. And so,
00:08:06
Speaker
My memory a lot of times of school and even college was being bored and wanting to live a bigger, freer, wilder, out of the box, know who God was life. And so that's kind of the part of the background coming into my life with Clay. We were both extreme, most intuitive on Myers-Briggs and we wanted
00:08:35
Speaker
we kind of moved in the direction of ideals because we'd seen a lot of Christianity that didn't feel quite as authentic as we thought it should be. If you knew the God of the universe, shouldn't your life be different?
00:08:47
Speaker
So that's what led us kind of into some of these ideals. Yeah. No, that's so good. I appreciate you sharing that part of it. I don't know again that I've heard that part of your story. So I appreciate that. And as we said at the beginning, we're going to come back to your book, your new book, Awaking Wonder. So I want to dive into that now and just hear a little bit more about that. Again, the name of the book is Awaking Wonder, Opening Your Child's Heart.
00:09:12
Speaker
to the beauty of learning. And so tell us a little bit about the book and why is that message so important for families today?
Core Message of Awaking Wonder
00:09:21
Speaker
Well, I think for one thing, because my children are now in their 30s and, you know, 30, 36 and a half, 37, 33, 31 and 25. And they made it out of our house and they actually still love us and they love the Lord. And they're all living very kind of
00:09:41
Speaker
very intentional, focused lives and really trying to make their own impact on the world. They kind of all caught a dream in our home. And so as I look back on everything that we did with our children, discipleship was a foundational key. We wanted to give them the kind of faith we had never had when we were growing up. And we didn't want them to have some kind of a reductive box.
00:10:09
Speaker
about what Christianity was. We wanted to expose them naturally to the God who painted the sunsets pink and who cast the galaxies into place and who gave every person their own fingerprint. And we also wanted them to be free to ask questions, to get excited about the world that they were born into. And I feel like we have really as a culture
00:10:39
Speaker
become very reductive. Kids sit in a row every single day. They learn how to conform to culture and to each other and families are busy and parents are trying so hard to make money and they feel like they need to provide lots of activities. This is a very long answer. But as I look back on many of the people that I knew whose children now are not following the Lord don't have
00:11:08
Speaker
a sense of purpose in life and feel lost because many of the next generation do. I wanted to write a book, we already wrote a home education book as you said you had it many years ago and people are still getting it today but I wanted to write a book to parents and say that you only have one chance and what really matters? SAT scores, test scores are not going to shape
00:11:34
Speaker
the answers to the deep questions that your children are going to have. And as I look into the difficulties of culture right now, our kids need to have hope. They need to know that the whole world isn't going to burn down. They need to know that that their lives have significance, even though they've been isolated at home. And so we really I wanted to write a book that gave them
00:11:58
Speaker
kind of their own awakening, wake up. These are human beings. You're shaping destinies. There is incredible potential when a child is made in the image of God. So it's kind of a looking back on my life in my mid sixties saying, these are the things I wish that I could tell parents. Yeah. And so Ruth and I were talking the other day that you just use that phrase. I think you said,
00:12:25
Speaker
you wanted your kids to catch a dream, I think is how you said it. And I think that Ruth and I were just talking the other day about how that, when we're around you and Clay, I think you bring that out of people. And so I can just say from our time with you guys, that's how I feel. When I'm around you guys, I think you inspire people, whether it's a mom or a dad, or I know you're talking about your kids,
00:12:52
Speaker
But that is, I think, so noticeable just by virtue of your presence and I think what you bring out of people. I know Ruth has expressed that on so many occasions. We were talking about that again last night. I know you guys were talking, recording an episode for your podcast, and you do. I think that that has been something that has just been so consistent in your messaging, you know, as God has given you opportunities to write and to speak and just
00:13:20
Speaker
Again, in private, as we've stayed with you guys, you do, you just bring that out of people. And so I know that we have appreciated that, just about your heart. And I'm curious, like what gets in the way of that? You were talking earlier about sort of the brand of Christianity sometimes that can be very reductive. You were talking about four spiritual laws.
00:13:47
Speaker
those kinds of things, but what gets in the way of that kind of vision of who God is and that vision for the Christian life? What a good question. You know, I think that actually you asked me about my background helped kind of define some of this because I think that maybe God put a deep hunger inside of my heart when I was a little girl, when I was a teenager, when I was in college, because I think that God has so much more for us
00:14:18
Speaker
I feel like I keep using the word reductive, but I think that we're living in a technological age where everything is measured by if it's efficient and if it can be done quickly. And here, I really feel like when I look back, I pondered Christ. That's what people told me to do when I first became a believer. They said, what is the God of the universe like? Because your goal in life is to know Him.
00:14:45
Speaker
And I feel like sometimes faith in many places is reduced to be good. These are the 10 rules to keep. This is the box you have to live within. And I think, boy, we must be so boring for God because He is the God who created texture and color and sounds and beauty. Nathan used to say, I'm so glad that
00:15:13
Speaker
our God is out of the box. And I said, what do you mean, honey? And he said, well, you know, like God created the chili peppers for fajitas. And he created golden retrievers to cuddle up to and Celtic music to dance to. And I just love him, Mama, but it feels like a lot of people we know just want to tell you everything you've done wrong and, you know, shake their hand at you. And they love making you feel guilty. And he said, why would people believe in a God like that?
00:15:43
Speaker
And so I think that part of our mission with people is to say God created us for so much more for personal relationship, for living into our capacity as thinkers, as people who have been given skill sets, as people who can say, I wonder in the power of the Holy Spirit what you would imagine through me that I might bring light and beauty and goodness to bear in the lives of other people.
00:16:13
Speaker
And so, I think that does get a lot to why I wrote this book. Yeah, that's so good. You almost sometimes wonder if it's almost like Christians sometimes need permission to have that kind of vision of the Christian life. And, you know, we've talked about before on the podcast that, you know, sometimes our view of who God is and who we are starts in Genesis 3 when it ought to start in Genesis 1.
00:16:36
Speaker
Yeah. And God made us, you know, for for life and truth and goodness and beauty and were made in his image. And so it feels like sometimes we don't go back far enough to what God originally had in mind for us and the vision to partner with him. And so I love that. Tell me a little bit. Let's go back to this idea of of inspiring this in a child's heart. Can you share maybe just a couple practical ways of how a waking wonder has looked for you and your family?
00:17:06
Speaker
I mean, how do you take some of these values that you talk about in the book and reach a child's heart? How do you inspire them to live up to that calling that you're talking about?
Inspiring Children Through Love and Example
00:17:18
Speaker
Well, there's two areas that I think are very foundational. And the first one is that God made us people who respond to love, unconditional love, affection,
00:17:32
Speaker
affirmation. And that's why I said the most important commandments were to love God and to love people. And so I think sometimes parents have a misconception that they're supposed to control their kids, first of all, or force them to do good instead of to reach their hearts. And the way to reach anyone's heart is to kind of look in their eyes and look inside their heart and say, what personality does this child have? How are they unique? What
00:18:01
Speaker
What drives them? How can I affirm them? And so I think it's narrating forward in that context of I want you to leave my home knowing that you are deeply loved and valued because God made you a very special person within your own limitations of personality and drives and desires. And so I think the first thing that parents need to know is if they want their children to love the God that they love, they need to love them well. And so we would narrate
00:18:31
Speaker
forward into our children's lives. I love who you are. You are a friend of friends. Or when you play music like that, I wonder if you're going to comfort people all over the world. That's amazing. Or you're such a hard worker. Or you know what, this might have been a really hard moment for you. But I can see spiritual muscle growing in you. And I believe in the man or the woman that you're going to become. And so the first one is that whole idea of
00:19:00
Speaker
seeing our children every day with how may I love them well the way that God loved me unconditionally. And then I think a second foundation for Awaking Wonder, because that opens their heart to wanting to learn from us. But the second thing is Jesus said that the student will be like his teacher. And I realized I wrote down in my journal, what do I want my children to be like? And I thought I want them to be curious and confident and
00:19:27
Speaker
I want them to explore knowledge in the world and have a confidence at asking questions and synthesizing things. I realize that I couldn't pass on to my children what I didn't myself have.
00:19:42
Speaker
And so if I wanted them to be excited about reading, I needed to be reading and saying, listen to this amazing story. If I wanted them to have a work ethic, I needed to be working hard in front of them. If I wanted them to have virtue in their life, they needed to watch me live a life of integrity. And so we often think it's the school or the curriculum or the philosophy of education that people need to start with. But I realized more and more that I wanted to say to people, no,
00:20:12
Speaker
who you are before you ever get to your children is the well that they're going to draw from. And God created you to be holy and excellent and beautiful and good. And so the more you grow, and I was curious, my kids, we did a video series recently with a book that people can find in our membership.
00:20:35
Speaker
We actually had 178,000 people who participated in it. We were shocked. That's amazing. Fantastic. I think people are just hungry. It helped me to realize. So there are people out there in that world. Absolutely. But in the videos, my kids, one of the things they said is they said, we always felt like we were co-adventures. And I said, well, what do you mean? And they said, well,
00:20:57
Speaker
We felt like every day, not every day, no day at Nina, where none of us is perfect, neither are kids, but they said in general, we felt like you were learning with us. You were saying, isn't this an amazing story? I wonder if we can find out more about this or, or when we would go outside, I'd say, isn't imagined creating this many kinds of leaves. And I wonder how God imagined the color green. And they said, we just felt like you were
00:21:23
Speaker
a mentor, a coach, a co-traveler on this great journey of education. So I think those are the kinds of things I want people to know. It's not about coming up with the perfect philosophy. It is about being full of life.
00:21:40
Speaker
It's so good. Ruth and I were laughing about this the other day, but one of the best things we did when we moved into the neighborhood that we're living in right now is we put a basketball goal up. It's like a magnet. We have neighborhood kids that are coming over all the time and so they're out.
00:21:57
Speaker
a blast. I'll go get Gatorade and we just have made it a fun experience and it's a great opportunity for us to be able to influence not only our kids but their friends. One of the things we were laughing about recently is that several of the neighborhood kids were hanging out in the garage after they got done playing a game recently.
00:22:17
Speaker
And Ruth and I were out there and we we got talking about books, you know, and we said, well, you know, what are you what are you? We're always trying to get, you know, kids to read that we just we love to read and our kids love to read. And so we got talking about books in particular. And one of the boys said, why would I read a book? You know, he just sort of looked at his dumbfounded like.
00:22:38
Speaker
And so he said, I don't know that I've ever read a book outside of what I'm supposed to read for school. And we said, well, maybe you should just start by listening to a book. And then he said, well, what would I do while I was listening to the book? And we said, well, you pay attention to the story. So it was rather comical. But my point in telling you that story is that I can hear the listener who's saying, boy, that's
00:23:00
Speaker
Like my child is that child. Perhaps I'm just trying to get through the day and my son or daughter, you know, they, they, you know, they'd be content playing Xbox in the basement. And so, so the parent that maybe that's their struggle. That's their challenge. Like, how do you help that parent help that child really begin to long for higher and better things?
00:23:24
Speaker
Well, again, it goes back to what I was saying a minute ago. It's not about controlling our children and saying, you will read this book. Right. But I think, you know, and I started out the first chapter of our book like this because we're all in process. I mean, we kept wanting to have more children so we could do it right, you know, with one child because you learn so much as you go. I think that somebody asked my daughter, Sarah, once why she thought all of the kids ended up loving the Lord. And she said, I think it was the
00:23:54
Speaker
French toast with maple syrup and buttered pecans. And they said, well, what do you mean? And they said, well, you know, we had fun. And so I would say with that child, do something totally unexpected for them. You know, I'm making this up, build a campfire and put on a mysterious book on Audible while you're all out at the campfire, either warming up or eating popcorn or
00:24:21
Speaker
you know maybe I used to take my kids on rides in the mountains because we live near the mountains and we would put on books on tape or audio audible books or we would put on loud music and as we did things that they loved which was to go you know to listen to their music to have great discussions in the car you have a captive audience or we would hike the mountains and ply them with the food they wanted or take them out to breakfast and just thinking of
00:24:51
Speaker
things that might open up conversations with them. We had, we wrote a book a long time ago called, or not a long time ago, a few years ago, called The Life-Giving Table. And we would make table talk really fun. We value their opinions. We would bring up controversial things. And, you know, so I think, or maybe the first book you listen to is a book of one of their favorite movies. But, you know, you kind of have to enter into
00:25:21
Speaker
what would interest them and what would be kind of beguiling to them and start that way. Because if you're trying to replace Xbox, it's got to be pretty fun. That's a tough challenge right there. Yeah, there you go. No, that's really good. If you were parenting young kids today, as you just think about, I know we're talking a little bit about
Parenting Challenges in Modern Culture
00:25:47
Speaker
just engaging a child's heart and how to do that. I mean, if you were parenting young kids again today and just knowing the culture today, what would you do differently today? And maybe a better way of asking that is, I mean, what do you feel like are the greatest sort of threats to parenting today based on sort of the culture we're living in?
00:26:12
Speaker
Well, I don't think our culture in general values children as human beings. They're an expense. They're somebody to be manipulated or cared for. But I think that as I look back, number one, I wouldn't have worried so much because we didn't have to be perfect. I think that I was reading an article recently, and it said, one of the ways to increase your child's education is, and of course, everybody thinks buy baby Einstein or whatever
00:26:42
Speaker
And it said, the more you kiss them on the top of their head, the more their brains will respond to life. And I think I would say God made children organic. You know, touch them, love them, tickle them, play with them, go on long walks with them, sing to them at night.
00:27:04
Speaker
The bigger vocabulary, the smarter the child. So you say, look at the green tree out the window with the bluebird who's going beep, beep, beep. You know, you're narrating life to them. And I would say you don't have to spend a lot of money. You don't have to get a lot of expensive toys, but what they really want is you, your time, and a lot of love, a lot of affection. I mean, this is a whole different thing. Affection, touch actually increases a child's ability to learn words.
00:27:33
Speaker
Isn't that interesting? It is. As I was sharing with you before, I think Ruth
00:27:41
Speaker
early on when our kids were really young. I'm just asking one last question here.
Advice for Overwhelmed Parents
00:27:46
Speaker
But I know when our kids were young, your book, The Mission of Motherhood, really changed the course of Ruth's approach to being a mom. And so I want to ask you this last question. What would you say to the mom today who feels like Ruth did when she was just trying to make it from day to day? I mean, how does that mom or dad who's listening even start with a waking wonder?
00:28:06
Speaker
I think that I was a person in process. So was Ruth. I think that when we spent our whole life thinking in a different direction, I never even thought about being a parent. I'd never changed a diaper. I just kept thinking if I got the right day timer, I could tame my life. I had three children under five and I would lose my patience. But I thought I want to be a good parent. I want to love them well because they just one day be in control.
00:28:35
Speaker
So the first thing is know that if you feel behind the curve, that's so perfectly normal. But I also believe that probably like with Ruth deep within our heart, we have this written in our heart is a desire to love our children and to know how to be good parents. And so I feel like wise people copy wise people. I think that one of the starting places
00:29:05
Speaker
is to read a book like Mission of Motherhood, or I hope Awaking Wonder or something like that, or to discuss a book with some friends and say, what do you think about this? Is this crazy? Or what do you do with your children to help them to go to sleep at night? I think the more you can shape a vision around what really matters and how to value children, the more input you can get, the more you will have a road forward. And so that's what I needed.
00:29:35
Speaker
You know, I just kept looking at scripture and seeking help. And I needed to understand that my adult vision of discipleship that I had gotten from Christ, he loved him, he served him, he went on boats with them, he cried fish for them. Same way that he mentored his disciples was how God could use me to mentor my own in the house disciples.
00:30:02
Speaker
And he made us to do this. And it's the best work I've ever done in my life because now my kids are my best friends. Yeah. And no one told me that that was possible. Let's go. We have had the privilege of spending time with you and Clay and your kids. I think actually Nathan is the only one I haven't met, but I've met and spent time with the other three. And so Nathan is the only one I haven't met yet. But I would just say to those that are listening, I mean, your kids are amazing and God has just used you.
00:30:32
Speaker
in so many profound ways, countless families, but obviously you've done something right. And so we just praise God for your influence in our life and in our kids' lives.
00:30:45
Speaker
And so thank you again, just from Ruth and I, I just want to thank you for the impact you've had on us and our family and just on behalf of the listeners that are listening in today. Thank you for just your continued influence and ministry, whether it's speaking or writing. And we just praise God for you and Clay and the impact that you've had on a lot of families.
00:31:06
Speaker
Well, you made my day. I'm going to walk out of this room with a big head and I'm going to go tell Clay, you know what? We must matter because Pat said we did. I really appreciate it, Pat. We just love you all and feel like we're all kindred spirits, so we must make time to get together again soon. Absolutely. Well, thank you again so much for being on the podcast today. And as always, you can go to our show notes on rootlikefaith.com forward slash podcast.
00:31:32
Speaker
And I will put all of the notes there from today's episode, as well as a link to Sally's brand new book. And again, the title of that book is Awaking Wonder, Opening Your Child's Heart to the Beauty of Learning. I want to encourage you to go out and buy. That's an excellent book. I had the opportunity to read it. And so please go check out the show notes for more information about the book. And then you can also follow us on Instagram at Patrick W. Schwank.
00:31:55
Speaker
and at Root Swank or on Facebook. And as if I don't say it enough already, we are thrilled that you are joining us. And we welcome you into our family here at Root Like Faith. And so be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts so you don't miss an episode.
00:32:30
Speaker
you