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Terminator Month: Genisys and Dark Fate
377 Plays2 years ago
In the year 2022, the world of podcasting has been overrun with Podcast Bots. All that stands in their way is a Scottish red panda and a talking sandwich. With time not on their side, the duo must make their way through the good, the bad and the downright ugly of the Terminator franchise in order to keep their podcast alive for their third season.
In this episode we take on what is considered to be the worst of the Terminator franchise. Is this the Genisys that the franchise needed? Or are we doomed to suffer the oncoming storm? Join us in our penultimate journey as we take on one of our most dangerous missions yet!
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Transcript
The Origin of Chat Tsunami Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
In the year 2020, a red panda in a talking sandwich began a podcast called Chat Tsunami. As the podcast grew, they began attracting the attention of the dreaded podcast bots. Now, in 2022, beginning their third season, they must make their way through all of the Terminator films. Wait, even Genesis? Yes, even Genesis.
00:00:25
Speaker
Oh, man. Well, Lisa's no birdemic. Welcome to Chatsunami.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hello everybody and welcome to the penultimate episode of Terminator
Introducing Terminator Month
00:00:40
Speaker
Month. My name's Satsunami and joining me for the genesis of this episode is the one, the only, Adam. Adam, welcome back. Good Morning Satsunation! My name is Adam, his name is Satsunami and welcome to our podcast.
00:00:58
Speaker
Well, we're not afraid to shake things up, get a little crazy, augment humans with robotics. So come join us and let's dive in. Adam, what are you doing? Well, I mean, Satsui, come on. We're three seasons in now. You know the old rule of entertainment. Three seasons in, time for a reboot. And let me tell you, market studies conducted using real androids, sorry, I mean, real human beings, demonstrate that the one thing that people hate is consistency. Can't argue with those facts and figures from an anonymous source.
00:01:29
Speaker
Very, very anonymous, but also well-respected Skynet analytics. Was this written by David Cage by chance? Oh no David, he's onto us. Quickly, get out of here. Shut it down. Hide yourself behind that curtain. Well, it can't be any worse than the podcast, but in fact, no, sorry. I take it back. So yeah, by that very, very subtle. Do you think they got it? I don't think so. I think you're going to have to read out the script again.
00:01:59
Speaker
That nuance, that, oh, chef kiss, just fantastic. Oh my God, can you believe it's been three weeks since we've started this month? Three weeks, but what a journey, what a journey we've been on. I forgot how much of a rollercoaster this franchise really is. Like the ups and the many, many downs, but as I said, what a journey. I can't quite believe what the three weeks have shown.
Terminator Genisys: A Detailed Discussion
00:02:22
Speaker
Oh, we are in the dark fate, as it were.
00:02:26
Speaker
of this month. So as you may know we have talked about the amazing Terminator 1 and 2. We have also brought Green Shield on to discuss Terminator 3 and Salvation, which up until this point Salvation was considered to be like the worst Terminator ever. It was a running joke, you'd be bullied in the playground for it. Actually that mental image is just both hilarious and horrifying.
00:02:53
Speaker
kid just hanging off the jungle gym with his, like, advice underwear. Salvation written on his ass cheeks. So moving on... How's that for a mental image? Billy, what happened to you? They said they liked Terminator. You told me to stand up for what I believe in. It's like, you know some things, Billy. You don't stand up for it, okay? I didn't know you liked Salvation this time. Get out of the house.
00:03:24
Speaker
So that's how Billy ended up homeless. Moral of the story, don't say you like Germany to Salvation in public. Thank you for this very informative episode of Chatsanani. But yeah, sorry, go on Adam. What were you gonna say? I think I've said enough.
00:03:40
Speaker
yeah we are in the dark times because as I said before we thought salvation was the worst this franchise could get to and then we were graced with this amazing piece of cinema this absolutely fantastical mess known as Terminator Geniuses and I know I should be saving this particular point for the meat of the episode but I'm just gonna say it the way they spell genesis in this film is so stupid it's spelled like G-E-N-I-S-Y-S
00:04:09
Speaker
I don't know, maybe that's how it's spelled some places? Like, do you know Adam? It's how you spell it if you want to look like you're really edgy but you have no edge. Then where's the Z's? That's a good point, exactly. It should be like Genesis. Genesis. Genesis. Genesis. Send you to sleep, so it's appropriate. About, yeah, Genesis.
00:04:29
Speaker
Out of curiosity, you of course being the bigger Terminator fan than me, what were your thoughts when they actually announced this for a woman they said, oh we're bringing back Terminator after all this time from Terminator Salvation all the way to Genesis. What were your thoughts? I was actually very excited when Genesis first got announced. I mean I hadn't enjoyed Salvation, but I'd still remained a Terminator fan in the years after Salvation's release.
00:04:54
Speaker
And like when I heard Genesis and when I saw trailers for it and heard about the concept, it really intrigued me, especially because obviously they were going to be revisiting like the first and second films. And I was like, oh, this could be really interesting shot in the arm for the franchise. So I was actually very excited. And I also went to see this film in the cinema as well when it was released. This was the last Terminator film I saw in the cinemas. It probably says a lot about what I thought about it in the end and what I thought about the franchise afterwards. But certainly I initially was quite excited, but what about yourself?
00:05:22
Speaker
I have to admit, I did see this in the cinema as well. I can't remember why. I think it was a friend drive to me and was like, oh, let's go see Terminator Genisys. I was like, do we have to? And he's like, yeah, we do. It's like the last time he took me to the cinema, we went to see Ghost Rider 2. So am I going to put my faith in this guy? I don't want to say. I'm sorry, short. We don't talk anymore. OK, that sounds like a wise decision. I was going to say.
00:05:47
Speaker
I remember watching it in the cinema and liking aspects of it but overall feeling quite disappointed because as we said before we both bonded over our shared love of the first two films. You know you had Terminator 1, you had Terminator 2, Judgment Day, both fantastic films that revolutionised the franchise and then you had the other ones that clearly were just capitalising on the originals in
00:06:14
Speaker
It shows. It definitely shows in Genesis. Would you say Adam that Genesis could be considered just like a soft reboot for the franchise? Definitely a reboot. I mean it probably is like a soft reboot. It felt like, it feels like at points it was trying to go for a hard reboot but like I think soft reboot is probably how you'd sum it up overall.
00:06:33
Speaker
Not to jump too far ahead, but it definitely ended on a note that suggested that there were gonna be more sequels from this particular timeline where we're gonna follow the Genesis peeps and everything, we're gonna follow Emilia Clarke and whoever played John Connor.
00:06:51
Speaker
That's one. Who was that again? Adam, do you remember? Oh, is it Jason Clark? Is that his name I want to say? I know his face. I've seen him in quite a few things. I think Jason Clark is the actor. Yeah, he plays John Connor. Jay Courtney. Oh, Jay Courtney Michael.
00:07:08
Speaker
Yeah, no, you're right, you're right. But yeah, then after that, we got, is it right in saying, Adam, that after Genesis released and it kind of released to poor, let's say, poor reception, we ended up getting Terminator Dark Fate to kind of like a quiet build up? Because genuinely, I don't remember there being much fanfare up until it actually came out.
00:07:29
Speaker
I remember initial fanfare because now I don't know if this rumor was just an unfounded rumor or whether there was like some actual like truth to it for a while but the rumor was that James Cameron was coming back to direct Dark Fate and this is where this is where it like popped for me and I remember hearing about Dark Fate
00:07:48
Speaker
And it being said that, you know, not only was Arnie coming back at Linda Hamilton, but also James Cameron was coming back and that made me very excited. And I was like, Oh my God, like, we're going to get like, you know, we're going to get the Terminator free that perhaps we always should have got to kind of like round the franchise out. So I was very initially excited for it. Then it revealed that James Cameron wasn't coming back to direct. He's, I think he's seen executive.
00:08:07
Speaker
producer or produce. He's got some kind of producing credit on this but it was gonna be other people and I remember being like oh and like the air kind of went out of the bag for me there and I didn't end up going to see this in cinema. I think I remember I remember asking Frank to the show Craigie C who's probably a bigger Terminator fan even than me. I remember asking him if he was gonna see it and he just went no and I was like well if he's not going to see it I probably shouldn't go and see it then I was like maybe maybe that's a sign.
00:08:31
Speaker
this film is a weird entry after saying again I'll save my thoughts with the main part of the episode but yeah this is it does feel like a very strange entry as you said like there was certain controversies would you say about this film definitely I mean it was it was a reboot for the reboot
00:08:51
Speaker
in many ways, so yeah, there were some controversial decisions made. But you're absolutely right, it does seem as if it is one of these films that was heavily touted as James Cameron's vision for what happened after Terminator 2, which again, the franchise is name-dropping Terminator 2, Judgment Day, into the later sequels and it's like, oh, what's it gonna do this time? But you know what, without any further ado,
00:09:17
Speaker
will we just jump into will we jump into the jedises and the dark feet of this franchise for one last time let's do it well we're going to sneak around the podcast boats for hopefully the second last time and as we do listen to these transmissions and we will be right back
00:09:34
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami, a variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime and journal interests. Previously on Chatsunami, we've analysed what makes a good horror game, conducted a retrospective on Pierce Brosnan's runs James Bond, and listened to us take deep dives into both the Sonic and Halo franchises.
00:09:52
Speaker
Also, if you're an anime fan, then don't forget to check us out on our sub-series, Chatsunani, where we dive into the world of anime. So far, we've reviewed things like Death Note, Princess Mononoke, and the hit Beyblade series. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out on Spotify, iTunes, and all big podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:10:16
Speaker
Hello, my name's Alan. And my name's Robin. And we together broadcast Radio Leaven 372. It's a podcast. Oh, sorry.
00:10:31
Speaker
Hello, my name's Alan. And I'm Rowan. And this is Radio Leaven 372. A podcast from our pub shed in our garden, the Debuckety Scoory. And we're available across all the platforms that you listen to your podcast on. So join in and listen to our name banter. Thanks for listening. Bye.
00:10:54
Speaker
Adam, this is your favourite part of the episode. What is Terminator Genis is all about? Okay, so... Ugh, duh. Good start there by me. So... Let's rebut it. What's on! That was a deliberate fluff by me, just so you could make that joke. It's okay, guys. We'll rebut it and we'll get an older Satsunami and Adam in. Guy Courtney will replace me in this episode. We all get to.
00:11:20
Speaker
Wait, then who's replacing me? Uh, media clerk. Oh, man. Well, okay. It could be worse. Okay. No, I'll take that.
00:11:28
Speaker
Anyway, Terminator Genisys opens with a young Kyle Reese trying to desperately survive in the post-apocalyptic ruins of Earth as Skynet's war against humanity has begun. And just as it looks like Kyle's about to be killed, he's rescued by John Connor. And then we flash forward. Kyle Reese is now a fully fledged member of the Resistance, a trusted lieutenant of John Connor, and the final assault on Skynet's about to begin.
00:11:52
Speaker
However, John and Kyle in another unit of the Resistance are on a secret mission to attack a Skynet facility in Los Angeles. This is revealed to be the facility that's housing the Time Displacement Unit, which is what Skynet uses to send terminators back in time to target both Sarah Connor in 1984 and
00:12:08
Speaker
young John Connor in 1991. We kind of get a kind of almost a rehash of Terminator 1 and Kyle says that he'll go back in time to save Sarah Connor and he makes his big speech and you know he says I can do it and everything so he gets sent off in time but as he's traveling through time John Connor is attacked by a very advanced Skynet robot that lends in almost perfectly as a human but before Kyle can do anything he's ripped back and he's pushed back into 1984. Very quickly it's apparently not everything it does it seems and this is a very different timeline
00:12:38
Speaker
Sarah Connor is already the kind of like badass warrior that she is in Terminator 2 rather than the sort of everyday girl that's like thrust into this like nightmare situation as in Terminator 1 and she's got her own Terminator now and she is determined to take Skynet out for once and so Kyle joins her on the mission and they flash forward to 2017 where they meet John Connor. However, John is now an advanced human robot. I don't even know what to say like synthesis between humans and robots and he's determined to stop them from taking out Skynet.
00:13:06
Speaker
And so that's the kind of general plot. It's quite confusing at points, if I'm honest, Genesis, but that's a sort of general stroke. Did I miss anything there? No, you got a pretty spot on. I'm not going to lie, there's nothing I can think of in that kind of web of plot points.
00:13:27
Speaker
I'm actually quite curious to hear your opinions on the opening of this film because the opening seems to be the only part of the film that a lot of people say, oh it's amazing, it's like the best part of the film.
00:13:55
Speaker
great opening. It clearly is so much inspired by the lore of Terminator 1 and Terminator 2 as well, but everything is right. The weapons are there, the vehicles, the Skynet machines, even the uniforms and everything. And the tone is there and everything. It really feels like directly taken from those early films. And I absolutely adore it. I think it's great. I think it's a really good retelling of that side of the story, which we didn't get to see in Terminator 1. We only heard about it from Kyle, so it was really great to see that.
00:14:02
Speaker
But did you feel the same way? Did this film give you hope at the beginning?
00:14:24
Speaker
Literally, if I was to make a Terminator film, set in the kind of post-apocalypse after the sort of Skynets war, honestly, I would probably make something very, very close to these opening 15 minutes. So I think they're absolutely spectacular. What about yourself? Well, they got the lasers back. That's all we'll see. The lasers. That's all you asked for.
00:14:39
Speaker
Honestly, where are the lasers? What was wrong with them? No, jokes aside, I love this opening. It is definitely the quintessential terminated experience. As I said, you've got the lasers, you've got the T600s that are like the kind of bulk of the army.
00:14:56
Speaker
I think the bulk of this one are like the T, oh my god, the T-800s and the T-101s. This is where I get confused, like there's T-101s and T-800s. I forget which one's which, but like the kind of classic robot, this kind of, this classic kind of Terminator robot that's usually underneath all like the human flesh. I think they're the main, I don't think there's any T-600s in there. I might be wrong though. My Terminator lore is not
Critiquing the Cast and Characters
00:15:18
Speaker
that good. I have to admit where I can identify a 600 from an 800 sadly.
00:15:21
Speaker
But yeah, the aesthetics of the opening are just absolutely fantastic. You know, you've got the interactions between John Connor and Kyle Reese. You've got the, as I said, the whole battle scene where it's humanity's last desperate push.
00:15:36
Speaker
You've got an absolutely fantastic scene where you see a younger version of, well, the Terminator from the first Terminator film. You've got him going through the portal and them rushing to stop this from happening. It's all fantastic and I think it is brilliant. And then Matt Smith, or sorry, Matthew Smith is credited in this film, comes out of nowhere and grabs John Connor just as Kyle Reese is travelling back in time.
00:16:03
Speaker
And personally, I feel as if that's where the film started to go wrong. Like, would you agree? Or is there any particular point in this film you would say kind of failed as a whole?
00:16:33
Speaker
for probably the next maybe five ten minutes because I enjoyed watching the kind of recreation of those scenes. I kind of enjoyed as well some of the I like enjoyed seeing the the T-1000 again watching him chase Kyle and Sarah and Pops and stuff so I was kind of with it there and then for me it was once they kind of jumped forward to 2017 was where the film really started to lose me properly but I mean looking at back at it now you are completely right and that the minute Matt Smith shows up that is the point where the film just just started to take a nosedive.
00:16:58
Speaker
I completely agree with you though, the recreations of the scenes from the first film are done so, so well. But it reminded me of something that you and I discussed in our first episode of Terminator Month where James Cameron had said he wanted two terminators in the film, he wanted a T-800 and he wanted some kind of version of
00:17:19
Speaker
the T-1000 and we actually get a glimpse into that, like what the film would have been like if they did have the T-800 and T-1000 off on the get go. I can kind of see why it wouldn't work now, you know, like we kind of hypothesised oh it probably wouldn't have worked back then but it definitely, personally for me I don't know how you feel Adam but I don't feel as if it works
00:17:43
Speaker
very well having so many terminators. Now what's the phrase again? Too many chefs spoil the broth. It's like too many terminators spoil the genesis as it were. I think what especially harms it in Genesis is that the T-1000 isn't in this film for very long and so they try to condense everything into like
00:18:02
Speaker
maybe 10 minutes, maybe less than 10 minutes, to be honest. I do think maybe the film was more spread, it was more spread out across like a whole film. That thing that might have worked better, but like, especially when you try to cram like, however, how many like three different, four different fight scenes between like three different terminators, because we have two, we obviously have pops and then we have the T-800 being sent back as well. So we have like three different terminator fights going on. So it's too much, I think in a short space of time, it kind of just overwhelms you.
00:18:30
Speaker
it seems as if they want to do all the callbacks in the first like half hour. Is that right insane? Because I'm trying to think what the cram in because the cram in of course the actual scene where they get sent back into the past, they have the recreation of the scenes from the first Terminator, we'll get the team 1000 from Terminator 2. Yeah we've got all these kind of snippets and Easter eggs and things and then
00:18:56
Speaker
Yeah kind of after that they just shove those to the side. It almost feels as if they're saying okay now these fan moments are away. We're kind of focused on our own story here and I don't know did you get the same vibe from that? Yeah definitely it's funny watching Genesis again because it's clearly made by people who like have watched Terminator 1 and understand it and have like some kind of reverence for it because you said they do pay good homage to it and they do especially in those in that opening 15 minutes they really do get the kind of tone of
00:19:26
Speaker
it and everything but I don't know if they may have reverence for the film but I don't think they have love for it. It very much feels again like as much as we're getting moments from Terminator 1, Genesis again feels like it's trying to be a clone of Terminator 2 and I just don't think the tone of Terminator 1 doesn't really fit with the tone of Terminator 2. They're quite different films which I think is a benefit for both of them but trying to mesh them together really doesn't work and then especially as well as you say like once that bit is done it's like
00:19:51
Speaker
right here's our original story and you're like oh I'd rather you just kept doing the fan service to be honest. Yeah because up until he gets to the department store and that's when we encountered the T-1000 for the first time. There's that whole sequence and then we are of course introduced to Sarah Connor and I hesitated there because I'm like it's a character called Sarah Connor and
00:20:18
Speaker
Yeah, going back to you, because I know I keep throwing it back to you. I'm hesitant to give my full views on this, but okay, I'm gonna rip the band-aid off. What did you think of Emilia Clarke as Sarah Connor in this? Because she's one of the most iconic characters in this series. So when I first saw Genesis, I wasn't a huge fan of her portrayal. Re-watching it, I actually think Emilia Clarke does an okay job.
00:20:44
Speaker
I don't think she's bad in the role. I think she really tries, and I think she gets a lot of the character down. My issue is, I find it so difficult to separate Sarah Connor from Linda Hamilton. Her portrayal, particularly in Terminator 2, is just etched into my brain, and I really struggle to think of anybody else as Sarah Connor. As I said in our first episode when we started Terminator Month, Linda Hamilton's portrayal of Sarah Connor in Terminator 2 is one of my favorite
00:21:12
Speaker
acting performances of all time. I think it's absolutely fantastic. So it just for me, it feels like Amelia Clarke, the shoes are just too big to fill. She just can't do it. And I don't, for me, it's not really anything to do with her specifically. I think it's just how great Linda Hamilton was. But what about yourself? Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. She is obviously a good actress.
00:21:31
Speaker
She does do alright in this role and I feel as if she was any other character, she would be able to pull it off alright but you're totally right. It seems a bit weird that obviously they have to introduce her at some point but it seems weird they introduce her at the exact point that all the pandering and
00:21:50
Speaker
the homages, as it were, to the past films are going on, and then all of a sudden—I was about to say Linda Hamilton there—all of a sudden, the Miriam Clark in the big truck smashes through as if, oh, this ain't your granddaddy's Terminator. It's a new one. I'm Sarah Connor now. It's like, you know that scene out of Captain Phillips where it's like, look at me. Look at me. Come with me if you want to live. And you're like, no, where's Linda? Linda, are you in there?
00:22:19
Speaker
What, the back of the van? Are you in the back of the van? No, instead we get another returning star. Should we talk about the Terminator in the room, as it were? We're gonna have to bring up Pops, don't we? Yeah, so Pops, as you refer to, is of course the... Well, I was about to say the original T-800, but it isn't. It's another T-800 that got sent back even earlier to basically protect
00:22:47
Speaker
Sarah Connor for some reason. And they actually build it up. They say, oh, who sent you back? And they build up this mystery of, oh, we don't know who sent you back. And we'll never find out, because apparently they had green, like, two sequels for Terminator Genisys. And yeah, as soon as people said, nah, we are not all about Terminator Genisys, they went, OK, back to the drawing board. We're no longer going to be making sequels to this film. So yeah, we'll never find out who sent that Terminator back.
00:23:17
Speaker
but it's a weird choice because I know why they brought back Arnold Schwarzenegger because they want to capitalise again on nostalgia and the fact that it can't be a terminator film without Arnie in it. And don't worry, we'll get on to that when we get on to Dark Fate. But he
00:23:35
Speaker
Yeah, for this one, it just seems like a weird choice because he's a lot older, obviously. And, you know, in real life he's a lot older, you can't pin that against him. But when they bring him back and then they start saying, oh, the skin that he wears ages, has that always been a thing?
00:23:52
Speaker
Or is that just a Genesis edition? This was a Genesis edition, and I think Arnie was initially hesitant to come back, but then they talked about it and they said, well, you know, like, it is human skin, so it could theoretically age over time. And he was like, all right, I'm sold. So I think this was something that they brought in to explain Arnie's inclusion, like, well, sorry, present day Arnie's inclusion in the film. Don't you need like a lot more blood cells and things like that for skin to age or? No, apparently not.
00:24:22
Speaker
I don't know, I'm not an expert on the matter so maybe I'm talking at my backside but I must have looked like a psycho typing in to Google like, what makes skin age? And I know obviously it's time but would it age on a robot? I know why. I know why they said it ages on them because they had to have an excuse for him being older or rather looking older in the film but yeah, no, that was a weird night of Googling I have to say.
00:24:49
Speaker
Imagine this to imagine, imagine if rather than aging it was like if you left meat out of the fridge too long and it started to go rotten. Imagine how it shows up, pop shows up and it's just like rotting. Oh my god. Oh sorry, just gross but very funny to me. It's either that or buffalo pops. It's with the stretch skin and just like clapping it all together.
00:25:16
Speaker
By the way, I just want to point out, this is like no slight against all those sorts of aging or anything, by the way. I'm just saying in terms of a term. How dare you, I'm sorry. I know how dare you. No, actually that, for legal reasons, that's a joke because he would beat me up, so please.
00:25:31
Speaker
Please Adam, please. You're the same height as him, you're fine. Oh no, he would still kick my ass. You know Terminator 3 where it's like I'm throwing the TX? That would just be me going through the toilets. What a way to go then. Yeah, true. Again, it's like a nitpick, but even still you're kinda like, how does that work? Me thinking back to my fleshy weapons idea. It's a weird thing because it definitely feels as if he's been forced into the film.
00:25:58
Speaker
And you kind of think, did he need to be in the film? Maybe, maybe not. In fact, here's the thing. You haven't watched much of the Sarah Connor Chronicles, have you? I've seen none of the Sarah Connor Chronicles. I've not seen much of it, but from what I, you know, have picked up, it seems as if there's like a lot of Terminator models that come back in that.
00:26:16
Speaker
but they're all like different actors and it just seems like they could have easily got someone else in as another terminator. I mean I know they have Matt Smith and yeah John Connor, don't worry we'll get to John Connor. You see at this point, do you feel as if it is just like brand recognition rather than actually wanting to tell a story?
00:26:37
Speaker
I think they're genuinely scared to make a Terminator film without Arnie in it, because I think, as you say, partly brand recognition, and I think partly they're like, well, audiences won't like it. Maybe audiences wouldn't. I think if you made a good film or a good story, you don't think people would really care if Arnie was in it or not. Personally, for me, watching this again, I was like, this was really the point where I think Arnie, I'm saying Arnie should have stepped away or they should have just decided to move away from casting him in it. Pops feels like the most generic of all the Terminator characters that Arnie had played up to that point.
00:27:06
Speaker
You know, I actually feel like the three characters he'd played before all kind of had relative, like they obviously shared some characteristics, but I felt they were kind of distinct personalities. So obviously it's like the ruthless killing machine in Terminator 1. It's the kind of father figure in Terminator 2. And then I actually liked in Terminator 3 as well. I thought he was almost like Timothy Dalton Bond-esque.
00:27:25
Speaker
world weary just like professional almost in a way which I kind of like but this one just feels like Pops feels like basically a poor kind of pastiche of Arnie's character in
Analyzing Humor and Action
00:27:34
Speaker
Terminator 2. You know it's another like father figure and it's somebody else like another machine learning to like care and love and everything and as well I have to laugh because I remember some jokes like before Genesis was released I remember hearing some jokes people were talking about is Arnie gonna basically go up to Sarah Connor one day and be like Sarah Connor you must bang Kyle Reese for the sake of humanity.
00:27:54
Speaker
in the future. And there's actually several scenes in the film that basically he says that. And I was just like, my God, that was the jokes that were going round him. He's actually just there telling Sarah Cottage he has to have sex with Kyle Reese. So yeah, I was not a fan of Arnie in this film. I love him. He's one of my favourite actors of all time. But like, no, I was not a fan of him in this film. I actually completely forgot about that. Speaking of the product of a night gone wrong, shall we talk about John Connor? Oh, my boy. Look at how they massacred him.
00:28:26
Speaker
Oh John, John, John, John. This is a moment I realise that nobody knows what to do with John Connor.
00:28:34
Speaker
I'm going to be honest, as I said in the very first episode of Terminator 1 Terminator 2 seemed like such a success and everyone was like oh it's amazing you know you've got the t1000 you've got the t800 you've got all these like cool gimmicks and things like that that people kept saying oh do you know what we're gonna do we're gonna just copy Terminator 2 going forward without
00:28:56
Speaker
you know referring back to the OGE original source well technically except for this one but i don't like the terminator in this one i think it's called the t5000 or the t6000. 5000 models too much in my opinion but
00:29:13
Speaker
So basically what happens is John becomes as you said he becomes like this hybrid between machine and man which could have been a really interesting thing to dive into except he's basically just a wizard. He has nanobots which is like Hollywood speak for we can do anything we want under the facade that we're actually doing something techy and oh look it's based on science and it's like no it's not.
00:29:40
Speaker
I was like, what are you talking about nanobots and all this rubbish? What did you think, Adam? Did you like them? Please tell me you liked them. The first 15 minutes of Jason Clarke as John Connor, I loved, I thought, this is the perfect characterisation of John Connor. This is everything that I love about the character, where it's like a mythical figure. We don't see that much of him. You know, we just see bits. He clearly knows more than he's letting on to those around him. I was like, this is perfect. And then he comes back later in the film. It's all undone.
00:30:08
Speaker
I like Jason Clarke, I think he's a decent actor, and I think, I don't know, I love those 15 minutes, but yeah, it's so stupid. It's such a stupid, like, hybrid thing, and it just, it deliberately messes the timeline up so much. Like, see, I wouldn't have minded if, right, okay, so we have the first 15 minutes of the film, Kyle Reese is getting sent back in time, and John Connor's attacked, and if John Connor had just been killed there, I think that would have been a fine way, and we can, like, you know, they can do their new thing with the timeline and stuff, because in theory, I don't mind them, like, rewriting the timeline,
00:30:38
Speaker
You know, it's a new film and I get the Terminator franchise is maybe getting a bit stale by this point. They want to freshen up. So, you know, go nuts with it. It's the studio's baby. They can do whatever they want. Like, just go nuts with it. But like, amalgamating John Connor with technology just really confuses everything. And it's become such a mess. And I just, yeah, I really hate it. I really hate it, to be honest.
00:30:55
Speaker
But the other thing as well with this film is the way they push the integration of technology, because that is a running theme in this film. It's the whole concept of technology encroaching into our lives. And let's face it, in 2022, that's not a new thing. It's been done to death at this point. But they had the angle. They had a literal man merged with machine. And they could have done something really interesting. But no, it was always a scary etch-a-sketch.
00:31:27
Speaker
You know what I mean though? That is amazing, I love that description. It's like when she's getting pulled apart by the huge magnet, he's got all these bits coming out in like an etch a sketch. I'm literally just imagining, I'm like, John, draw that man in a chicken suit. Oh my God. Sorry, sorry, I'm going to put a big diversion here.
00:31:49
Speaker
But do you see what I mean though? It's like there's some moments where it's just like, this is so goofy and there's some aspects where he's fighting, he turns his body through his body if that makes sense, it's really weird to explain but I mean there are some interesting action set pieces, like did you know that about the bus in this that they actually flipped a bus on the bridge? Oh I do remember that was actually, I do remember actually seeing that in the lead up, that's quite an impressive stunt actually.
00:32:13
Speaker
It's just it's one of these weird things that I think is kind of a hangover from a lot of like filmmakers and again film watchers as it were complaining about the
00:32:25
Speaker
facing out of practical effects and people are like oh we need more practical effects and obviously they've got that big scene where they flip the bus and that is cool don't get me wrong but then you just go back to CGI John Connor leaving these literal digital footprint everywhere. By this point and I mean this kind of start this trend started with Terminator 3 but the fight scenes in Terminator films are just stupid.
00:32:48
Speaker
They're really like, as you said, they're so heavily reliant on CGI. And it's just like machines just throwing each other through things. And like, I don't get any enjoyment watching the action scenes in Genesis, in Salvation, you know, and even in Three and Dark Fate and stuff. Because it's so CGI, just like there's no weight to it. There's none of the kind of like visceral quality that you get from like practical action scenes and everything. So it just, it Genesis just continued that trend that I was just bored to be honest by the action scenes for the most part.
00:33:15
Speaker
is back to this phase of the T-800, or whatever model it is nowadays, but the T-800 grabbing people, throwing them through walls and Pepsi machines, and you're like, remember when the Terminator used to terminate people? Remember when that was like an integral part of the marketing that the Terminator would do some terminating? And I'm like, yeah, where is the terminating? You know, that makes me sound like another psycho being like, come on, let's get to the violence already.
00:33:44
Speaker
You're like a bloodthirsty Gremlin, but there's just like so much CGI and everything going on. And don't get me wrong, honestly, like I don't care whether they do, you know, CGI or they do practical effects, like the practical effects. Nine times out of ten they usually look better, but you know, you can't exactly do the helicopter chase. But if you compare the helicopter chase in Terminator 2 versus the one in this, this one just feels like a cut scene. That sounds like such a bare basic critique, but it's true though.
00:34:13
Speaker
Yeah, at the very end it does feel as if they're like, oh look, we're weaving through traffic and I'm like, oh no, whatever shall they do? Will they escape Krypton? Oh no, wait, I put Man of Steel on my mistake, sorry. I have a load to say visceral, but is visceral in all the wrong ways? You just get bored of it, you're like, right, okay. As you said, J.K. Simmons is good. He's a good character. I honestly thought J.K. Simmons was going to be the psychiatrist
00:34:41
Speaker
character. That would have been really funny actually as well if he'd done that. I actually wish the whole film was based around J.K. Simmons' character. I wish there was just like we've seen a cop who just happened to be there in 1984 and see all this like crazy shit going down and then spends the years in between like trying to like track them down like I'm so much more interested in that story to be honest than whatever the hell like Genesis eventually tries to become. That was the character I was most interested in.
00:35:06
Speaker
by the end. Yeah, he was severely under-utilised in that film. Speaking of under-utilised, and this is gonna be my big final point before we get onto Dark Fate, but I hate the way they treat John Connor nowadays. I absolutely hate the way they have no understanding of the character whatsoever. We spoke about this in the previous episodes, and even the episode before, where John Connor
00:35:30
Speaker
is a mythical figure. Think of any prominent historical figure and like the legend and the legacy behind them and this is going to sound like a weird one to bring up but it's almost like if you had films about William Wallace okay like not even Braveheart but films about William Wallace let's say as a historical figure
00:35:49
Speaker
And then the more and more they made films, the more they were like, okay, we don't really know what to do with them. I don't know, in the third film of the franchise is throwing chamber pots at people and everything and throwing them through the castle. And then eventually they're like, okay, we're bored of this character, let's just kill him off and replace him with either of those parents. And you're like, well, where are you going with
00:36:11
Speaker
this kind of thing. And it does feel like that with John Connor, it feels as if they made this really cool historical figure. But after Terminator 2, they had no idea what to do with him, so he was quite windy in Terminator 3, in Terminator 4, and he was Christian Bale. They kept focusing on him, so they were demystifying him. And the more time you spent with him, the more you thought, okay, actually, don't like John Connor.
00:36:34
Speaker
To the extent they were just like, okay, let's cut them off then. What are your thoughts on the character, Adam? Because I know, obviously, you're a bigger fan of the franchise than me, so how did it feel to see your childhood's idol get massacred right in front of him? Do you know what? The most excellent point that's been made during Terminator month, and maybe during the whole of this podcast, to be honest, is when you talked about Terminator 2 laying the seeds for everything basically bad that was going to happen to the Terminator franchise.
00:37:01
Speaker
And this is another example here. Terminator 2 obviously had a big focus on John Connor, and it feels like since every other Terminator film has tried to be a kind of clone of Terminator 2, they're all like, well John Connor was in Terminator 2 and he had a big part, so we've got to have John Connor in our film. Okay, let's fuse in with technology now.
00:37:19
Speaker
send them back
00:37:49
Speaker
2 again. I tried to, when I was watching Genesis and Dark Fate, I was trying to separate my... because obviously I'm a huge fan of Terminator 1 as I talked about in the first episode. I tried to kind of separate that part of me away from watching these films because the Terminator franchise now is so wildly different from what Terminator 1 was. There's really not that much... the kind of aesthetics are there, but the tone is just wildly different.
00:38:10
Speaker
So it's interesting to see this franchise and just realise how far it's gone away from that. Nobody, as much as they wanted to borrow bits from Terminator 1, nobody's that interested in remaking Terminator 1 to an extent. Everybody wants to remake Terminator 2. So yeah, John Connor's inclusion is just another hangover of that, to be honest. They just can't break out of that mindset. Do you know what this whole film is in essence? It's like one big Funko pop.
00:38:36
Speaker
It's got all the aspects simplified of the pop culture references. It's got, as you said, it's got Arnie, it's got John Connor, it's got, oh look it's the T1000, oh look it's this and that. It's like jangling keys saying, oh look we've got your favourite things, but also we're gonna put our new spin on it and I don't want to be too harsh because obviously someone wrote this and I hope they're not listening to this and like crying in the corner as I'm saying, oh this old bit.
00:39:04
Speaker
Yeah, it was clear they were trying to establish themselves as a completely different timeline. Especially the way this film ends, because do you remember what happens to Arnie? Yeah, he becomes a T-1000, doesn't he? Here's one thing they did change from the Terminator. Every Terminator film, from One to Salvation, had a heroic sacrifice at the end. Whether it's Kyle Reese, whether it's Arnie, whether it's Arnie again, whether it's Marcus. This film has no heroic sacrifice.
00:39:34
Speaker
Kyle Reese survives, Sarah Connor survives. Even like Arnie, even Pops has like a fake heroic sacrifice, but then just gets remade into a good T-1000. So that's one bit of the furniture franchise they got rid of and one bit that I wish they'd kept because it felt like a kind of a core bit of the Terminator series. But hey, there you go. What can you do? It's progress.
00:39:53
Speaker
maybe I'm being too harsh on it, but I actually can't think of one moment that you would get emotional at in this film. For the first film, obviously, it was the battle against Kyle Reese and Sarah Connor against the Terminator in T2. It was the, I know why you'll cry, and it's like, oh no. Terminator 3, it was the realisation, or rather the futility, of trying to prevent Judgment Day. Terminator Salvation was the price of the ticket you had to pay to actually get into the cinema.
00:40:24
Speaker
But then, oh that joke's never going to get old but yeah for Genesis was there anything in it that you thought, oh that was emotional, a bit of crying to a pillow. Do you know the bit I cried at when I saw they turned Kyle Reist from like a PTSD suffering time traveller with this romantic fixation on Sarah Connor into a wisecracking smartass.
00:40:45
Speaker
Jai Courtney was very much a person I really hated for a while, I'll be honest, because to me he was the franchise killer for a while. He was like, he's Sam Worthington 2.0, to be honest. So he was in the last Die Hard film, which was terrible. And then they've never made a Die Hard film since. He then came into this and I was like, my God, there's never gonna be a time near a film again. Now you've killed it again, Jai. He was at one point, they were gonna make a Commando reboot, like the 80s Arnie film. And Jai Courtney was gonna be like the lead in that. And I was like, don't you dare.
00:41:28
Speaker
hate his Kyle Reese so much. There was one line that made me cry into my pillow was when they get arrested after they chase on the Golden Gate Bridge in the bus fleet. They're
00:41:33
Speaker
Don't you dare!
Plot Holes and Evolution of John Connor
00:41:39
Speaker
in the interrogation room and they've got the magnet thing that they're trying to use to damage robot John. And then when the police officer's like, what do you use these for? And Kyle Reese is like, I use them to find my keys and
00:41:50
Speaker
You're from the future! How do you know these bricks? Why would you say that? That's not a thing that would be in your mind. You're like crawling through rubble to avoid like hunter killers and everything and like tanks crushing you down, but like you're like, I've got to find my keys. And you say, oh, I hate, I hate coyotes so much in this film. That made me cry.
00:42:08
Speaker
That's a really good point though, because if you compare it to the first film, which this film is adamant in doing, Kyle Reese and the first one was like this, as you said, this world weary person from like this dystopian future. And I mean, technically they do hint at that at the beginning because there's a conversation between John Connor and Kyle Reese in their talking and John says that Sarah Connor is a waitress. And of course, he turns around and says, well, it's a waitress.
00:42:38
Speaker
And I thought, okay, that's quite a nice touch, you know, cause obviously you wouldn't know what a waitress was, considering he's thrown this like hellish landscape, but it didn't feel as if there was any desperation. Like at the very beginning, they set up such a good moment of, oh my God, it's the final push of humanity versus the machines. What's gonna happen? How are they gonna stop these terminators and everything? This is the literal genesis of the franchise. And then for some reason that keeps cutting to a kid who has, I don't know, an Oculus Rift that he's gonna open.
00:43:07
Speaker
I never find out what Genesis is, do we? It looks really, but I would have hated to have got that as a kid. I've been like, can I play games on it? It's like, no, no, no. It's going to link all your advices. And I'm like, what the hell does that mean? I want to play games, man. You keep me not already do that. Apparently not in this 2017.
00:43:24
Speaker
I mean, places like China already have WeChat that connects all your apps and things together so like, I feel as if Skynet are really dropping the ball the older they get. Is that like a ram issue? Yeah, I totally agree. I feel as if the characterisation of everyone is just replaced with this.
00:43:41
Speaker
very genericism, you know, it's very generic, it's very cookie-cutter. See, this is the thing, like, microteaks sound so basic, because this film at times is so basic, it does honestly feel as if they said, okay, Kyle Reese is like a hero and everything, but they never brought over the emotional baggage of the 80s, or with Emilia Clarke's Sarah Connor, where
00:44:06
Speaker
Again, I don't like Sarah Connor and this and it's nothing against Amelia Clark, she's a great actress but she's exactly the same character as Kyle Reese. With the whole, oh look at me, I'm like this badass that's like jumping through this and that. She is just literally just Kyle Reese. She's the exact same character so I'm like, well why are we invested in these characters? Sorry, before we move on, the interrogation scene. Do you remember what happens before they get interrogated in the hospital?
00:44:36
Speaker
Or say, and the bridge. Where they're getting line-up shots, the mug shots. We get the classic Terminator smile. Not even that, the fact they play bad boys over it. Oh yeah. I forgot about that. As if it's an early 2000s film. I have no response to that because I was just like, oh yeah. I now literally just saw it flashback to actually re-watching it and sitting there and being like, oh this is Terminator now.
00:44:59
Speaker
What happened to all my, like, dystopian, like, you know, PTSD-suffering survivors, like, scratching out is like, no, it's just bad boys now. Oh well. There we go. It's become very marvellous, hasn't it? At least for this film.
00:45:12
Speaker
It really has as well. Actually, there was one that I meant to bring up. You know what we were talking about? I don't know if anachronisms is the right word, but we're talking about Kyle Reese joking about using things to find his keys and stuff. I love the first 15 minutes of this film, but there was one line that I had to pause and rewind. I was like, did they actually say that?
00:45:30
Speaker
And I'll just know if you remember the line. So, you know, just before Kyle's getting sent back in time and like they're explaining the whole like, you have to go through naked. You can't take any like, you know, it's only organic matter that can go through. And the woman who's explaining this to Kyle says, you know, if you take any metal through, oh, it'll be like what happens to tinfoil in a microwave. So my question is to you, Satsunami, how do people in this post-apocalyptic world know what happens to tinfoil in a microwave? Because it's the only entertainment in the future.
00:45:57
Speaker
I mean, other than watching fire in a burnt out TV, like...
00:46:01
Speaker
Where are these microwaves working? Where are working microwaves? Do you know what I exactly thought of that scene in Terminator 1 where the TV, there's the fire in the TV and people are watching, there's this great scene and I'm like, so apparently there's just all these working microwaves around the corner where you can just rustle up some popcorn if you're a little bit hungry once you're getting chased by the HKs. Also can they just say that's like the worst appliance you could ever have if you're trying to hide from machines?
00:46:29
Speaker
Can you imagine, right? Okay, picture the scene. There's like a family and they're resisted. They hear the hunter killers and the drones and everything overhead, and they go, shh, don't make a sound. And all of a sudden, all you hear is a ding because the father of this family decided he had the munchies, so he wanted popcorn. And now his family's dead because he wanted popcorn. It's like the post-apocalyptic Super Bowl's on it. Gotta have some popcorn to munch while I watch it. You mean the post-apocalyptic fire's on?
00:46:58
Speaker
Exactly. Oh, it's my favourite. I can't wait to see that. I left it on a cliffhanger last time. It's like Colombo all over again.
00:47:06
Speaker
Oh my god. So overall, before we move on to Dark Fate, were your impressions of the franchise positive after this, or did this just leave a bitter taste in your mouth after seeing it? It's
Dark Fate: New Directions and Critiques
00:47:19
Speaker
left quite the bitter taste after seeing it. You know, it had been one thing if this had been Salvation and I really hadn't enjoyed any part of it. But I think the fact that I enjoyed the first 15-20 minutes so much, and then I hated the rest of it so much, I don't know. It really, yeah.
00:47:33
Speaker
really left me in it with a bad taste in my mouth and especially did not make me feel I actually just wondered if this would be the end of the franchise to be honest and like rewatching it I think Genesis it's slightly better than I remember it because at least I knew it was gonna be pads rewatching it again but yeah you just you just look at it and you're like yeah this wasn't going anywhere I'm you know no offense to the creators and stuff but this was dead on arrival there was no way this was getting carried on any further
00:47:56
Speaker
yeah it does seem as if it's the most generic out of all of them as much as i've got critiques of dark fate coming up this one definitely feels as if it's the safest one almost like don't get me wrong there's some real stupid decisions in this film but
00:48:13
Speaker
it was obvious or rather it was clear that they wanted to reboot this franchise, they really wanted to make this into a new trilogy, they wanted to take it in a different direction but I mean to take away the fundamental aspects like John Connor especially because that's the thing they obviously must have thought at some point oh people are sick of the John Connor storyline and you know
00:48:36
Speaker
the retaliation for that as well of course we're tired of it because you haven't done them right you should just keep them in the background along with the popcorn and the tinfoil and the microwave you should just keep them in the background this one isn't the best it's just this generic
00:48:52
Speaker
Now I would go as far to say it's the most generic in Cookie Cutter, the franchise, but speaking of one that isn't as Cookie Cutter, but definitely breaks the mould for all the wrong reasons, will we move on to Dark Fate? Let's round off our retrospective. So Adam, what is Dark Fate about? Oh God. Right, here we go.
00:49:13
Speaker
So Dark Fate opens up with Sarah Connor and John Connor in the kind of, not quite the immediate, but in the near aftermath of Terminator 2. Sarah Connor and John Connor, while he's still fairly young, still a teenager, have moved down to Mexico now. They've stopped Judgment Day, they've stopped Skynet, and everything seems to be hunky-dory.
00:49:30
Speaker
However, we soon realize that Skynet sent more than one Terminator back to kill John and T-800 comes marching up and basically kills John Connor straight up murders him at the beginning and then marches off leaving Sarah to mourn her fallen son. And we then flash forward to 2019 and Skynet hasn't risen up like the war against humanity hasn't started and the world's pretty much as we've
00:49:51
Speaker
if we recognize it now, but somebody else comes flashing back through time and this person is called Grace and turns out that she's a human, however she's an augmented human. She's been augmented with advanced robotics and she comes from a future where another AI called Legion has taken charge and has begun a war against humanity and she's been sent back to protect this person called Dani who is going to be the leader of the human resistance in her timeline.
00:50:14
Speaker
Of course, you know, this being a Terminator film, Legion has sent back its own Terminator, this time a Rev-9 model, which is kind of a blend of the T-1000 and the T-5000, whatever the John Connor Terminator was from Genesis. It's kind of a blend of both of those, with a little bit of the TX actually from Terminator 3 in there as well. And this Rev-9 has been sent back to kill Danny and prevent the human resistance from defeating Legion. At the same time, Sarah Connor is still around and she's been on this mission to eliminate all Terminators and she keeps getting this random information that
00:50:44
Speaker
it sends her to points in time when terminators are going to show up and she takes them out and she joins up with Grace and Danny to protect them and then they begin their adventure to stop Legion and to keep Danny safe and to protect the the fate of humanity and Arnie's also there because of course he is a Terminator Phil. Arnie's there? I bet you were shocked when you saw Arnie show up. I mean I was shocked and or appalled. Mostly appalled.
00:51:08
Speaker
mostly appalled, really shocked. I'm going to be upfront with you. I don't like this home. As an entry into Terminator and just a film in general, I just, I really didn't like it. But before we go on to like why I'm such a sourpuss.
00:51:25
Speaker
in this regard let's talk about the intro because as you said the whole intro I feel as if is the moment that both gives an identity to this film but also kills the film right off the bat where they're chilling down in South America and then two seconds later oh no
00:51:44
Speaker
Another Terminator which is like... So here's the thinking of Skynet, okay? They send back the T-800, doesn't do the job. They send back the T-1000 because they must think, oh well the T-800 isn't up to scratch, we'll send a more advanced model, doesn't work. So my question Adam is, if you were trying to kill someone as like a evil AI in the future, why would you send the last year's model back?
00:52:08
Speaker
Because that model is clearly somebody's nephew or cousin or something. It's nepotism at Skynet, I tell you. We've got to find a place for Barry, so... Oh, sorry, we've got to find a place for Carl, I should say. So come on, just send him back in time. The T-1000 will probably do it, but we'll give him some importance to you.
00:52:27
Speaker
that's probably the reason and all and they say that's probably a more logical reason. This is the thing that irritates me, right? So Skynet send back the T-800, okay? They killed John Connor outright. We actually see a child getting shot. A deep fake child, don't get me wrong, but a child nonetheless. And we see him getting shot, Sarah Connor, now reprised by London Hamilton.
00:52:50
Speaker
absolutely weeping over this body. It's really dark, it's really gruesome. And then, of course, the Terminator walks away. So my question is, what happened to Skynet then? Because, see, after that, Skynet are never really mentioned again. It's all about Legion and about stopping this new, super-duper AI with Rev7s and Rev9s, which we
00:53:14
Speaker
never really get a feel for the future if that makes sense. Like as we've gushed about before in the first two films we see like the kind of blue purpley hues and the night sky as these like hulking machines roll over skulls of people that obviously they've gunned down and killed. But it just seems when we actually get to see the future for this to
00:53:38
Speaker
timeline, it's very genetic and not in a terminator genesis way, more in like a, I don't know, insert your own dystopian future here. I mean, did you feel that way when they talked about Legion? Did you feel that way? Like who, what, why, when, where sort of deal?
00:53:54
Speaker
I like the idea of Legion and I like the concept. I especially like the idea that it's like humanity just don't learn. You know, we stopped Skynet, but some other people are going to be like, oh, well, we'll create an advanced AI. And I kind of like the idea of humanity just like repeating its mistakes and everything. I think that's a good idea.
00:54:10
Speaker
You're completely right those scenes in the future are so generic and they tell you absolutely nothing about Legion and you're right it's just this what are you supposed to like why am I supposed to care it literally rather than making Legion its own sort of like unique thing and differentiating it from Skynet it feels like Skynet 2.0 but like a bad cop
00:54:27
Speaker
Like a pirated copy of Skynet, basically. There's no unique identity, no unique brand to it. It's just, oh, they're out to kill humans again, because that's what these AIs do, don't you know? Haven't you seen the other films? They just, they have missed an absolute golden chance to do something kind of unique and something interesting. And it really hurts the film, as you say, because like, why do we care? Like, why am I supposed to care? What is Legion? It's just something that you've told me to care about, but I refuse to. I refuse to care, sir, until you give me actual solid proof why I should.
00:54:55
Speaker
But there's actually a scene later on where I think is it Danny goes to visit her brother and like this... it's like a factory to make cars. And you see this machine doing his job and they have this very generic, oh they're stealing our jobs.
00:55:13
Speaker
and you're like, really? Is this as much as we're going to dive into this? Because, yeah, it genuinely is. It's like, okay, so are you going to expand on that? Is there going to be like, you know, like a creepy AI that's taking over the machines? No, no, it's just, yeah, it's just another terminator terminating. There's your dash of social commentary for the film. Back to ripping off Terminator 2 again.
00:55:41
Speaker
As I said before and I will stand by this, it feels as if they just plucked the worst bits of Terminator 2 and then they shot John Connor in the face with it and went, yep call it a film. Can you imagine though being like a fan for so many, in fact don't imagine because we are fans of the film.
00:55:58
Speaker
We're living it man. Exactly. Waiting so long from the 90s just to see the true successor. You know, you saw Terminator 3. Eh, not great. Saw Salvation. Nah, I didn't like it. Saw Genesis, a little bit generic. So this is the one that's apparently the
00:56:13
Speaker
true successor to Judgment Day. You know, you get to see your favourite character. You get to see Linda Hamilton. Maybe you'll see John Connor. You get to see Arnold Schwarzenegger. What are they going to do? And then you see, alright, they de-aged Eddie for long and shot him in the face. Oh, is this where we're going with this James Cameron? For Eddie for long he's been through enough.
00:56:33
Speaker
You didn't do that to him as well, Jesus. Yeah, you don't have to deage him and then shoot him, for God's sake. I hope he's got a paycheck for that. I don't know this for a fact, but I don't know if they brought him in for the facial capture. I mean, he doesn't look, no offence to it, he doesn't look anything like him. No, not as a child.
00:56:50
Speaker
I mean, I'd love to if they brought him in now just to do that. Just tried to make him look like a kid. That would have been funny, but... Yeah, I genuinely don't like this opening. Like, I will say this, it's eye-catching, but that's about it. Do you know what it feels like? It feels like one of those fan... Like, don't get me wrong, the quality of it's great and everything, but it feels like one of those fan films that you would find on YouTube where it's like the dark ending of Terminator.
00:57:16
Speaker
You know, it doesn't feel as if it's like, again, not the production values really high and everything, but in terms of the storytelling, that's what it feels like, like somebody's fan fiction. And it's like, really? Is this where we're going with the Terminator franchise? As a way, if you just wanted to like properly reboot this series and just go in a completely different direction,
00:57:35
Speaker
This is like the best sort of like gut punch opening to go with, as you say, just like, bam, John Connor is dead. Right. Forget Skynet. We're doing something completely different. And I'm okay again with that in principle. What I'm not okay with then is doing that and like making it look like it's going to be this whole different thing, but then continuing to basically try to remake Terminator 2 once again. Commit to just doing something completely new with it. And you know, we can forget all the, everything that's happened previously or else just be upfront and be like, yeah, we're trying to make Terminator 2 again.
00:58:02
Speaker
please give us money you're completely right we get the wacky terminator hunting danny down who is now they do this whole thing where they say oh it's because of you know she's like the next sere corner which don't worry i have a very significant point to make on that yeah of course it turns out she's the savior of humanity and they make a big point of protecting her against the rev nine the rev nine all say about the rev nine is i like the fact that the rev nine terminates
00:58:30
Speaker
I have to admit, watching this film, I went, finally! After the T-800 throwing the other terminators through toilet cubicles and throwing John Connor through the... I don't even know what you call that in Salvation, the prison factory. It was good to see... Not good. Again, that makes me sound like a psycho, but it was really... You just want to see people get murdered. What's wrong with that?
00:58:58
Speaker
It's false advertising if you go into a film called The Terminator. And he's what, raising a child? Yeah, exactly. I mean, what next? Like going into Citizen Kane and there's no Kane in it, you know? Come on. They're not even citizens of this country, damn it.
00:59:13
Speaker
Yes, as of this episode, I've still to watch it. I will watch it. It's interesting to see that they got a more violent model. Don't get me wrong though, I really don't like the gimmicks of this one because people say, oh it's cool that he can split his exoskeleton and his actual skin off and it's like, traveling back in time must have been a bitch with that. Obviously, you know, you have to have skin to travel back in time as per this universe and maybe they've like worked it out.
00:59:40
Speaker
Imagine they send the Rev 9 back but they only send the skin part back and these exoskeletons just away. Oh shit, right. The skin comes flying through from time but then when the body comes through it's just tinfoil because it's been in the microwave. Do you think that's what crashed in Roswell? Yes, that's the theory now. That's why people wanted to rush the RAF 51. They wanted to know the truth.
01:00:10
Speaker
show us the Rev 9. Another thing that I thought was quite funny because as I said this film is set in South America in particular. It's meant to be set in Mexico and I thought that was interesting. Not starting it in you know America as usual. They do start in Mexico with them. Oh what's their name? Danny. Oh I don't remember a second name sorry. I was about to say Donnie's trio but it's not
01:00:44
Speaker
So it starts in Mexico with Danny Ramos and I like the fact that they did start somewhere different rather than of course being generically in America and oh look the bombs are falling because something that you didn't really get to explore in the other films like see the first two films you can give it a
01:01:04
Speaker
past because the whole story was contained within the journey of John Connor. Even for the third one, like I'll give that a pass, the whole first trilogy you can understand. But then after that, they never really explored how other countries dealt with it because it's like three billion people that get wiped out. So you think
01:01:20
Speaker
surely there's like more. And the fact they start there and of course the Rev9 comes in and he starts speaking Spanish because he realises he has to. Now I know there's the whole, that'll probably be a futuristic chip that lets him translate languages but something that made me giggle when I was going to bed the other night was can you imagine Rev9 lands and of course he's programmed to speak English right away but then all of his other languages are like Google Translate? That would have been incredible.
01:01:50
Speaker
Where is woman? I'm sorry. What have we done with a Duolingo one or something? Must kill for shriek. What are you saying? You like my arms? I don't know. Are you trying to kill me or ask me out?
01:02:06
Speaker
Ah, Duolingo, the one place that will never sponsor us after this episode. I mean, you could do, wink wink, but what did you think of that though? Starting from anywhere but America in this film? It is a nice idea, although we do start as South America, but Danny eventually ends up in America, and that's where the resistance is all going to be basing from is America. It's an interesting idea again, but I'd
01:02:29
Speaker
To me, they just don't use anything. Nothing impactful happens because of it. Is there any reason that her being from Central America is particularly important in the film? It just feels like, oh, look, we're being different. It's like, well, on the surface you are. But again, she's very much just a John Connor type character, if you know what I mean. Because I like the idea. Let's get in with this film. I like some of the ideas, but I just don't like the execution.
01:02:53
Speaker
They have some really interesting ideas, you're completely right with, again, going for the different saviour of humanity, but it's just not done in a compelling way or an interesting way. The actress who plays Dani, she's great, most of the actresses and actors in this are good, but the characters themselves are just very annoying. Like going back to one of the other ones, Grace, who is this film's coyoris, where she is being sent back in time to protect.
01:03:22
Speaker
Danny from The Rave Nine. Can I just say she is the worst protector I think this film has ever given us. I would take old Arnie over her. He had pops before. I would genuinely, I would have pops protecting me over Grace because it's established in the film that I think she gets injured, so she has to have all these cybernetic enhancements that boosts her abilities, like she can run super fast, she can do all these things, but
01:03:48
Speaker
hires her out easily and she needs like medication to keep going and why? Adam why?
01:03:56
Speaker
Why? I think this would have been a great chance to have gone again, and maybe maybe I'm just too much of a fan. If I'm just being too much of a fan of the first Terminator film here, please just tell me. But this felt like it would have been a good chance to go back to that model of like human versus machine again, you know, and that's something a lot of the first films on it. None of the other films have done that. So it'd be quite unique to go back to that. But again, they're like, well, no, you know, like Terminator 2 is machine versus machine. So let's augment grace and put all these things in so we can have these ridiculous fight scenes again between the Rev 9 and between grace.
01:04:23
Speaker
And so, but like, they're like, well, we'll put some like frail because she's like a machine everything, we'll put some frailties in. So she overheats and you know, she needs to have medicine and everything. And it's just, yeah, it's just as you say, just like, why is this woman going back? She's got a lot of like, liabilities here. It doesn't feel like a very good person to send back, you know, with all these kind of issues and these problems and everything.
01:04:43
Speaker
Also, as well, like, Grace is a straight-up psychopath in this film. Can I just say, right, okay, the Rev 9, as you pointed out, the Rev 9 does a lot of terminating in this film, but he also doesn't terminate people who aren't, like, a threat to him or aren't in the way or anything like that, you know, and he even shows some actual, I'll say, quote-unquote, care towards human beings, like, when they, like, you know, when he crashes the helicopter into that guy's shed and he walks out and he's like, sorry about your shed, he just, like, walks out without murdering anybody.
01:05:06
Speaker
Let's compare this to Grace. How many people does Grace give internal bleeding, concussions, like hemorrhages to, like, throw out the phone? Because she, like, any human being who gets, like, even as remotely inconvenienced as her at any point, she'll, like, smash her head into the floor or to the wall. The bit where they cross the border and then the Rev 9 crashes the drone into the area where they are and Grace is injured and she's getting, like, examined. She's getting examined by doctors, like, by people who train professionals to do this job of examining people. And she wakes up!
01:05:35
Speaker
And she's like, did I tell you you could examine me? And she just beats the crap out of this poor guy who is literally just doing his job. He just like smashes his head into the wall. So he's definitely like, his brain is like hemorrhaging away now. He's clearly dead. And then she just like backhands this other woman and she's got augments. That woman's probably broken her jaw and everything. I was just like, Grace is like a straight up psychopath in this film. And I didn't find her a very likable character. I'm going to be honest.
01:05:58
Speaker
And a plus part of me is like, why didn't she just tell, why didn't she tell Danny what her purpose is? I feel like Danny might've been more willing to accept her protection if she'd just been like, oh yeah, I'm here to protect you and buy that you're going to be the savior of humanity in the future. But she keeps refusing to tell Danny and Danny's just like, keeps putting herself in harm's way. And I'm like, as you said, just a terrible protector.
01:06:14
Speaker
To be honest, would you follow someone who a first introduction was shooting your dad? Do you know what? That's probably a fair point. Not even any warning. He's just like, oh yeah. That's literally the first scene we see them interact with one another. Danny's dad comes to visit her. Of course, he's been killed by the Rave Nine. And just as a side note, I just want to point out that this actor, it really took me off guard because
01:06:39
Speaker
as I mentioned in past episodes there's a particular Spanish show that I watch called Money Heist or La Casa de Papel and one of the actors or rather the actor who plays Danny's dad is a guy called Enrique Arte and he is like he plays one of these kind of slimy and sleazy guys who like has a fear or something. It is really a good show like go watch it but as soon as I saw him I was kind of like
01:07:05
Speaker
Arturo, what are you doing in here? You should be in the bank kind of thing and then you get shot in the face. But going back to my previous point, it just seems baffling that you get to see him blasted away. I just remembered the way she does it. She shoots her dad and then she runs up and grabs her and is just yelling in her face, that's not your dad, that's not your dad. How would you process that Adam? I don't think I would.
01:07:33
Speaker
Maybe I was being too harsh. See when I criticised, I can't remember his first name still, but General Brewster internally to three, when he just stood there as if, what? You shot my daughter. Nothing compared to what Grace does. And one last thing about Grace before we talk about some of the other characters, but
01:07:52
Speaker
One thing I was really surprised at was her interactions with Linda Hamilton just seemed very aggressive. Linda Hamilton, despite them stealing her car, she passes out. She does a very hilarious scene where she's like, oh, come with me if you want to live.
01:08:08
Speaker
she's crawling along the floor saying I have to protect you and it's like you're not protecting anything, what are you talking about? And Sarah Connor eventually rescues them. But then she pins her against the wall and it's like don't get in my way as if this is a strong character and it's like it's weird.
01:08:27
Speaker
What are you doing Grace? What are you doing? Total agree. Bit of a psychopath character in this level. But here's the question. Here's the big question for
Evaluating the Return of Iconic Characters
01:08:35
Speaker
you. What are your thoughts on, before we get to like the main meat of it, what are your thoughts on the returning cast? So of course we've got Linda Hamilton coming back who is apparently top building this ahead of Arnie. Did you know that? Aww, I didn't know that. I'm glad to hear that though. But yeah, what do you think about them?
01:08:52
Speaker
I'll start with Linda Hamilton. I loved seeing Linda Hamilton again. It was what I was most excited to see about this film and it lived up to it for me. Like she's still great. Like she plays that character so perfectly and again it just unfortunately when I think about it to Amelia Clarke's portrayal I'm just like I just need Linda Hamilton has to play Sarah Connor for me. Like maybe I'm too much of a fan but like that's my Sarah Connor.
01:09:13
Speaker
And that's what she always will be. She was great. I loved, I absolutely loved her. She still does amazing in the role. And I actually really loved her story. And like, I love the kind of journey she was going through, the emotional journey of like trying to find purpose in this world where Skynet's been defeated, but her son's been killed, you know, just trying to like go on day by day, you know, and then she finds this new purpose with Dani. And then she obviously like learned to coexist with Arnie's character and with Grace and things. She was great. I absolutely loved Linda Hamilton. I think she's
01:09:41
Speaker
She's still a great actor, she does great in the role and she was just a joy. She was my favourite thing in this film and I don't have anything bad to say about her in this film. I thought she was great. When it comes to Arnie in this film, you know I said I kind of found Pops quite boring in Genesis and I didn't really care for Arnie's inclusion in that film.
01:09:59
Speaker
I think I might actively hate Ari's inclusion in Dark Fate. I really don't like it. And honestly, I think more than anything, his role in this film is what sinks it for me and what really drags it down. This felt like the most shoehorned way to put him into this film. And it makes literally no sense to me. Again, his character is a poor copy of his character in Terminator 2. So again, it's another father figure.
01:10:25
Speaker
What was great about Terminator 2 was watching the journey of this machine adopt this role and learn to care about John and about Sarah and everything. That was a great emotional journey there. But we don't get that in this film. We get Arnie delivering exposition to tell us that he's had this great emotional journey. It makes no sense to me. It raised several questions.
01:10:46
Speaker
Several, quote unquote, mechanical questions to my mind when he was describing his relationship with this woman, whose name I've forgotten now. And then, again, it just feels like he then has to be a big central character in this film, which I think really detracts from the cast of the three strong women. It really detracts from them, and I think it just muddles everything up. So I really just, yeah, I think I might actually hate it.
01:11:08
Speaker
his inclusion in this film, but what about yourself? What kind of questions Adam? I couldn't possibly think of what you're talking about here. Exactly, what kind of biological questions were raised by a terminator being in a relationship with a human woman? Anyway, watch the film and there may be certain questions that will be raised to you.
01:11:26
Speaker
Well, going back to Linda Hamilton, again, she does a fantastic job in the role. I can't really say too much against her. As I said, she did a fantastic job and I feel as if this film has too many plot, well maybe not too many plot threads, but too much that they were gonna expand on, but then they just cut it dead in its tracks. So
01:11:49
Speaker
you know you've got the whole Danny storyline, you've got the whole thing about Legion, you've got Sarah Connor grieving over her child and that's like a really strong thing if we followed that story and then included Danny along the way with Grace. That would have been really cool but again they were more focused on re-establishing the franchise with Danny who of course has less experience than John Connor and both characters both John and Danny just aren't
01:12:19
Speaker
fleshed out at all, even though they've been promoted as being these massive figures. While Linda Hamilton does a fantastic job, it's just such a shame that she doesn't have the story to back that up. Because she has some scenes, again with the T-800 that killed John Connor. But yeah, and again with the T-800 it makes no sense. Like why would Skynet send back a second Terminator first of all? And then why would they send an older model?
01:12:46
Speaker
it makes zero sense, it makes absolutely no sense and you're right, it just feels absolutely shoehorned into the story, into the plot. I don't like it, I have to say, I just really don't like the way the included are in it and obviously they do it for the brand recognition. And also, if the T-800 kills John Connor, why did that result in Legion becoming a thing rather than Skynet?
01:13:08
Speaker
because there's a conversation where the T-800's talking to the Rev-9 and he says, I come from a future where, you know, things didn't end too well and it's like, well first of all, how would you know? Because you were sent back, you jammy bastard. But second of all, would he not be wiped out by the paradox? Like in Genesis there's a throwaway line about that where, you know, John Connor says, oh I can kill my parents and it won't matter if I exist or not. Eh, so it kinda felt the same way. Nothing feels natural about Arnie's role in this film, does it?
01:13:38
Speaker
No, not at all. It just feels as if he's there. He's like, what's that wax museum called Madame Tussauds? It feels like that. They just plucked one there and they just shoved an animatronic up the back and they said, okay, my god, aren't they for the shit? It's like, why is Mr. Schwarzenegger not moving? Why is he melting in the sun?
01:13:57
Speaker
Quickly, he's been in a relationship with a woman for 20 years and raised a child. It's all good. Go, go, go. Here's the thing, though. I know he said, like, platonic relationship, but would a terminator not be called to the touch? You know, I was thinking as well today, did he have to practice hugging?
01:14:13
Speaker
Surely if a Terminator like even if it doesn't mean to like crush a human surely just like a terminator's natural force would probably just like crush a human being you know whether it meant to or not so did he have to like go out to the forest and like practice hugging trees and stuff to get like the right amount of force so he knew how to hold not only his platonic partner but also like this young child that was like a part of his life now.
01:14:35
Speaker
establish though why he wanted to become more human. No! This is the thing, this is why I hate it so much because I said there's nothing organic, there's no organic growth for this at all. It's literally just shoved in, it's like, oh he's basically like, oh he's the character from Terminator 2 is what they're trying to tell you. But like, the minute you stop to think about it you're just like, this is so stupid it makes absolutely no sense and has like,
01:14:59
Speaker
There's nothing in the Terminator lore that has shown us previously that a machine could organically do this. It kind of made sense in Terminator 2 because he had the mission to protect John, his concern and care developed from there. But why would the machine do this organically? It has no reason to.
01:15:14
Speaker
It's not the right material for this film. It's just a huge anchor around its neck. I can't enjoy this film fully because I'm too busy thinking about all these questions. As I said about a terminator practicing hugging things and imagining it in a relationship, I just can't get past these questions.
01:15:30
Speaker
It reminds me of a socially awkward person playing a dating sim for the first time. Do you think there's a dating sim programme? Is he lowkey playing Doki Doki Literature Club in the background? Why would
01:15:49
Speaker
they have a protocol though for being human? Because as you said, the T-800 in Terminator 2 was reprogrammed to be a protector, and even in Genesis Pop's laws, again that was a protector which we'll never find out who sent it. But for this one, he was just sent back to kill John Connor, and he does, and it
01:16:08
Speaker
See y'all now on this, see if there is a genuine reason behind this. Please feel free to let us know because I don't want to be one of those guys like, oh they don't tell us, but I genuinely can't remember. But speaking of bad, can we just talk about the trio of heroines in this?
01:16:26
Speaker
I feel as if this was a very purposeful marketing tactic in this, well rather in the run-up to this film where they had three female characters who were very strong archetypal figures, you know you had Sarah Connor, you had Danny Ramos and you of course had Grace, the last name I don't think they told you. No I don't think they gave any kind of name.
01:16:51
Speaker
Ah, probably not. Grace Smith, let's just say. But no, in all seriousness, that was like a very focal point. Like, do you remember that when this film was getting advertised that those three characters were, like, obviously other than Arnie, like, expected Arnie as, like, going into your grant house and expecting, like, Mint Imperials to be there?
01:17:12
Speaker
Yeah, he'd expect Arnie to just be there. That was kind of the focus, wasn't it? But the marketing. Oh definitely, yeah. And then of course, we may actually get to the film. I feel as if Sarah Connor is the only one that comes closest to being a genuine character.
01:17:29
Speaker
And this, well, out of the three of them anyway, because as you say, Grace is a straight up psychopath. She's, and again, this is a slight against the actress, I just mean the character in general. It seems as if she is very aggressive. She keeps pushing against people and everything and you're just like, why are you the way you are?
01:17:48
Speaker
Good question. Dani's alright. She's not a bad character but she's not really memorable. Do you agree with that? Yeah, she's very, Dani's very milk toast to me. Like she's not really given that much to do. It's kind of like that you're going to be important but you're not really important in this film. She's not really given that much important stuff to do and then like I feel as well the bit that harms as well as we do get one scene of her in the future where she first meets Grace and she saves Grace.
01:18:14
Speaker
from being murdered by these other humans. And she gives this impassioned speech about we should be fighting the machines, not each other. And again, I think it kind of goes back to that way of the I don't think you should overly show mythical figures. I don't think that's always the best idea. I think it does chips away at their presence and everything if you show them too much. Plus, I just don't think that scene is great. I think it's filmed very well. So it doesn't it doesn't really come across as that impactful or as impactful as it really should be. But that's really the only big like thing she gets to do. She does feel like the third wheel between like trapped behind Sarah Connor and Grace.
01:18:44
Speaker
And it's a real shame for somebody who is supposed to be the saviour of humanity in the end, that he's relegated to this almost secondary role. And that only gets worse when Arnie shows up as well, because then he starts to hog-click the screen time and everything. Well, yeah, that's true. We just talked about these, like, carpet business. Or is it cartoon business? Drapes! Well, I forgot about that! Drapes, that's it, yeah.
01:19:02
Speaker
It's like wow, this like fantastically humorous moment pinpointed perfectly in a film where the opening was a child getting killed. Thank you writers, thank you for that, that's me being facetious. I'm not saying you can't have a film like this and not have any humour or anything but
01:19:19
Speaker
yeah it just kind of feels misplaced but one of the things that and this is something I was kind of talking to you about off recording but one of the things that I inherently loathe about this particular film is basically the way Sarah Connor interacts with Danny and the way she basically demeans herself
01:19:40
Speaker
the grander scheme of things. I don't know for a fact because obviously I wasn't there when they filmed so maybe they had a fantastic time filming this. But there's a particular scene where they're sitting in like this van and they're trying to sneak across the border and they're talking about, oh why does the brave nine want to kill me? And Sarah Connor says in a very cynical tone, oh they want you for your womb,
01:20:02
Speaker
and you're used to this and everything. And I severely hate that line, and the reason I hate it is because it completely simplifies the struggles of the character in Terminator 1 and 2. Because as we've said before, Sarah Connor was just a waitress, you know, loving the
01:20:20
Speaker
very normal life, she did things that someone in the 80s would do, she went to work, she woke up, she had a routine, and then all of a sudden her life was completely turned upside down, and then she had to transform into this warrior figure and become
01:20:36
Speaker
more than Sarah Connor. She had to become someone who would be a protector, be a mentor, and she imparted all this like wisdom and things to John Connor. So the reason, or rather the only reason John Connor became the Saviour of Humanity was because of Sarah Connor. Because they could have easily killed her off in film too, but they didn't. They made her this fantastically strong character.
01:21:00
Speaker
And to just turn round in this fellow and say, oh, it's because of your womb. Oh, look at me. I'm Sarah Connor. The only thing I'm good for is pumping out babies. You know, it just is really wrong with me. And I get why they did it because they wanted to be like, haha, plot twist. Danny's the savior of humanity. And again, it's this thing where it's like you're showing too much of Danny being like,
01:21:23
Speaker
Hey guys, let's work together. And it's like, oh, OK, we're going to send Kumbaya and put on the microwaves of Harmony. I don't know. Before we go on to the ending of this film, what were your thoughts on that? I basically agree completely with what you said there. Not only do I think it kind of cheap and diminish Sarah Connor's character, but as well as you say, like, it's obviously they're trying to be like, oh,
01:21:44
Speaker
I bet you think Diane's gonna give birth to the Saviour of Humanity, don't you? Oh, I bet that's what you think. Well, guess what? She's the Saviour of Humanity. And I'm like, no, I could see that coming. What could you telegraph? I've posted this so much by constantly referring to this whole issue of giving birth to somebody that I'm like, well, clearly it's not gonna be that. So I think it fails on both those levels. So yeah, completely agree.
01:22:04
Speaker
I'm just imagining the director being like, you thought she was going to pump out another John Connor, didn't you? You sexist. It's like, no, I saw the twist of my body. You sexist. That's what it feels like, though. It doesn't feel like that way. You could think of a woman leading the resistance, could you? I'm like, no, I could. I've seen Terminator 2. I've seen plenty of strong, well-written female leads, you know, and everything. I just wish you'd put some more of those into your film.
01:22:28
Speaker
to be honest. You pointed out an absolutely hilarious point towards the end of this film, despite this clearly being a film where they were trying to promote these characters as strong female characters, the flow's yours on this one. So as we've said, there was a big focus on this trio of powerful women of strong female characters and that's great, I'm all in favour of that and that would be something to differentiate Dark Fate a bit more from previous Terminator films.
01:22:55
Speaker
However, the problem, and again, the problem comes back to the fact they have to include Arnie in this film. So basically we get to the end and the Rev 9's like, chase down our heroes and he's cornered them in a dam. And there's a big fight, you know, everybody's trying to defeat the Rev 9, but it looks like he's gonna win, but they fight back. And then basically what happens in the end is, rather than, I don't know, let's say Danny, or maybe let's say Grace, or maybe let's even say Sarah Connor being the one to finally defeat the Rev 9, guess who finally gets to defeat the Rev 9?
01:23:25
Speaker
Oh, that's a tough question. Is this going to be in the trivia episode next week? Yes. So in this film with three very strong female leads and Arnie, which one of the four gets to defeat the round nine? I'm going to go with...
01:23:40
Speaker
Wait, no, no, sorry, I know I'm going to change my answer. It was James Cameron, all along. Exactly right, James Cameron comes out of nowhere and takes him out. No, of course it's Arnie. It couldn't be anybody else, could it? Arnie gets the final kill on the Rev 9 and he gets this full proper emotional poignant death scene where he's sacrificing himself again and isn't he the true hero? As Danny and Sarah Connor watch on and idolise and thank God that Arnie was here to save the day.
01:24:07
Speaker
What is also Arnie's character's final lines? Do you remember his final line? Is it for John? It's for John! John Connor! It's not for Danny! The saviour of, you know, the actual saviour of human race. Now, it's for John Connor, who remember who died at the beginning of the film. And at the same time, so Arnie's had this amazingly poignant emotional death scene. Poor Grace, who like, let's be honest, should have been the one to kill the Rev Nikes. It makes the most sense, you know, to have her have to do the heroic sacrifice, you know. She gets the most horrific death.
01:24:35
Speaker
which is also like very quickly done where basically she's badly injured by the Rev-9 and she tells Danny to like basically remove her power cell because that can be used to like basically vaporize the Rev-9 and finally destroy it. So tell me basically like cuts open Grace's chest and like shoves her hand like directly into it, pulls out her power core and the most like undignified and pretty horrific death to be honest.
01:24:55
Speaker
But we don't have any time to, like, focus on it. The camera quickly cuts away and we've got to get back to watching Arnie finally defeat the Rev 9. And then after Arnie's, like, poignant death where, like, the light goes out, you know, in his eyes and everything, and he done his For John line, the camera pans back to be like, oh, don't forget Grace died as well. And this isn't Grace a real hero, too. I was absolutely shocked that that's how this film ended, which was based so much around this, like, trio of strong women. The fact that it was Arnie that gets, like, all the emotion and all the poignancy and gets to get the final kill. I just, I was absolutely baffled why they went for that decision.
01:25:25
Speaker
I completely agree with you, mirroring what you were saying there, the fact that they do have three strong female characters and they keep pedaling that throughout the film, they keep saying, oh look at how independent and strong Grace is because she beats up the people and she takes a close off the guy and again with
01:25:43
Speaker
Sarah Connor coming back, she's just an older woman now and she doesn't care about really anybody except herself and things and Danny's just there kind of and again Rome wasn't built in the day. Having Danny there you would have to spend some time with her to build her up
01:26:01
Speaker
but it's weird as I said, there's so many small plot threads going on but it feels as if they've snipped them at really weird intervals. You've got the John Connor thing, you're getting shot at the beginning, snip, we're not going to find out what happens with that until much later in the film. You've got the whole thing about Grace feeling, is it right to say under the weather? I feel like I'm understating.
01:26:25
Speaker
her condition. She's got the sniffles clearly. See if she had the sniffles, that's why you would send her back. Not if she has a physically debilitating condition where it's like, I need this particular drug, which I was going to say she should have taken some back with her.
01:26:44
Speaker
No, hold the phone. Okay, I'm going to win a backtrack here in a moment. So, remember how we talked about the first film and how rustic it
Technological Inconsistencies and Missed Opportunities
01:26:53
Speaker
was? You know, you had the fire on the TV, you had people literally scurrying rats under the city and things. They had nothing. But in this film, they have the means to make cybernetic augmentations on people. Yeah, it's not quite the plucky resistance, is it?
01:27:10
Speaker
Could they not have installed a system that would automatically pump? An insulin pump or something new that would just automatically pump the chemicals she needs for travelling back in case she takes a funny turn? Or am I thinking too much into this? You know what, I'm glad I was really concerned that you were going to pitch the idea again of wrapping a bag of medicine in flesh.
01:27:33
Speaker
I'm glad you weren't installing a medicine pump or something inside. Well, I mean half of the Rev 9's in the area 51, so anything's possible. I do like the Rev 9, slightly off topic, but I do think the actor did a great job of that. At times he's a bit intimidating, but again that just falls into the trope of, oh look it's a gimmicky terminator again. Yeah, going back to the main trio of women in this film,
01:28:00
Speaker
I don't know. It annoys me because the potential was there. I wouldn't be annoyed if I didn't care. I don't get me wrong, there's some elements of this film where I'm like, okay, I'm just fatigued at it. But, I mean, I really want to see a strong female character in these films. We've obviously got Linda Hamilton as a recorder. She's fantastic. But the other two just fell far too short in my opinion. But as a closing statement, what would you say about this film? Would you say this is a return to form or is it just the dark fate that
01:28:31
Speaker
I like the ideas of this film and I think that there's a really good concept here. I think it was built on strong foundations. I just don't like the execution of these ideas. It's that way again that they clearly
01:28:45
Speaker
actually I'm saying that they clearly want to do something new with this franchise but I'm not even sure if they do now part of me thinks that perhaps they do just want to remake Terminator 2 and I just this series needs to make up its mind about like what it wants to be like if it wants to go in a new direction then I encourage that to be honest I say to jettison the past and just do something new with this franchise like take it a new direction
01:29:05
Speaker
New characters, you know, new enemies, new locations, go for it. Like, let's just, let's forget the past. Terminator 2 is the demon that this franchise needs to exercise because it's just, it's the shadow that nothing is able to escape and nobody seems to want to be able to escape. Everybody seems to want to remake Terminator 2. And again, this is just what this feels like. It feels like another attempt to copy Terminator 2 and I'm kind of tired. I'm fatigued at this point of watching these films try to copy Terminator 2. I just want them to do their own thing.
01:29:32
Speaker
not really a return to form, just another frustrating experience to be honest I think is the best way I'd sum it up. And although on this day when I started this retrospective I thought that I was going to come away with this thinking, oh Terminator 2 is the best film ever, it's the greatest of the franchise, and a lot of people do think that, so I don't want to belittle their opinion to be like, oh you're wrong.
01:29:53
Speaker
But going back to watch Terminator 1, and it was just such a near perfect film in every way. And then you watch Terminator 2, and don't get me wrong, that's fantastic in terms of action, in terms of set pieces. But again, going back to what we're seeing, the fact that all of these films seem to latch on to Terminator 2 because that's the good one. That's the one that people know about. That's the one that they parodied in like The Simpsons and all of these kind of shows. And you think,
01:30:20
Speaker
Is this good for the franchise? Again it is, it's like Terminator 2 is just sitting on life support and it's like do we need to keep harvesting from Terminator 2? Or can we just pull the plug and move on? Because not to say that Terminator 2 is a bad film in retrospect, it's not a fantastic film but the main issue with these films is they just keep plucking elements from Terminator 2.
01:30:44
Speaker
and the only thing I will say is I do appreciate that they did try something different with like Grace and Danny and so forth because when this film came out there was a lot of people complaining that oh it's a female character, oh look as I'm going wrong with all this rubbish.
01:30:59
Speaker
I don't feel as if that's so much the problem. I feel as if it's more the writing and the characterisation that lets this film down because it would have been cool to see, okay here's my take on it. Even if the resistance leader of Mexico maybe, or South America if you were to do the entire continent, maybe if they localised certain
01:31:20
Speaker
people. So, you know, you could have certain leaders for different areas of the world leading this resistance against the machines. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm saying that as if there are other pockets of resistance across the world. Is that right?
01:31:36
Speaker
Well, Terminator Salvation certainly showed that the command of the human resistance is made up of high-ranking military officers from several different nations you can see from the address and everything. It's not something that the film, I think outside of Salvation, I don't think many other films have touched on it at all. But I'm not sure if there's maybe media, other Terminator media out there that does cover that. But certainly there definitely is a human resistance out there that is global.
01:32:02
Speaker
But that's the thing though, I feel as if with the inclusion of Danny, and again I'm not going to jump onto that train and be like why did Danny replace John Connor? It's not so much annoyed at the fact they replaced John Connor, it's that I feel as if they didn't know what to do with John Connor and they thought the easy way out was just to kill him off and then just introduce this new character so you thought
01:32:24
Speaker
Oh, wow, I forgot about John Connor, who has been mentioned and talked about since the 80s. It just seems very misguided. Again, it would be cool to see characters, especially in this franchise, because for the most part, other than Sarah Connor, really the main characters in this franchise are men. You know, you've got, well, I say men. One's a giant robot. Come on. And the other is, of course, like John Connor. So I mean, technically you have Kate Brewster, but does that count?
01:32:54
Speaker
I think Kate was a step in the right direction. I don't think she was a perfect character in any way, but I think she was a step in the right direction. But yeah, they did then. It really does feel like it is Linda Hamilton, Sarah Connor of Bust, unfortunately. It really does feel like for a good, well-developed, well-written female character.
01:33:12
Speaker
like Grace and Danny are also like, I think as well they are steps in the right direction as well. I just wish this film had devoted more time to both of them to actually like flesh out their characters more and yeah it's just but again the film just didn't. It does feel like a missed opportunity but who knows maybe we'll get Terminator, what are they on now? Seven?
01:33:33
Speaker
Well, it's terminator 6's dark fate. That's a good question. What could it be called? Are we gonna get some like mumbo-jumbo science word by Genesis again? Or are we gonna get some like time and fate style thing like obviously dark fate and like salvation? They might as well just cut out the middle man and call it Doctor Who now.
01:33:50
Speaker
I know Matt Smith was in one so we're getting there. Sorry Matthew Smith sorry. Matthew Smith of course. That really, that was jarring in the cinema when I was like no you mean Matt Smith. Matthew Smith. Come on. I actually don't know. It'll be weird to see if they do pick it up again as a film. Do you know what I would like to see though? If they picked it up as a Netflix series. Like because I know they had the Sarah Connor Chronicles and that obviously didn't take off too well but something like that, that would be quite cool.
01:34:19
Speaker
I don't know. I suppose that's the final question for you, Adam. Do you want to see more of the Terminator world or do you just want to see it burning and burning with its thumb up? The light going out of its eyes, yeah. In its current form, I kind of don't want to see any more. If it's just going to be this continual attempt to remake Terminator 2, I'm fine. I'm good. I've seen this cycle play out. I know the end result. I'm kind of okay with that, thank you very much.
01:34:45
Speaker
If they were going to do something new and they're going to take it a new direction, then I am keen for that and I would be willing to watch more Terminator films that are just going a completely different direction and take some risks and do new things. I get why they don't always do that. You don't have to take massive risk. You don't have to like turn you into like a rom-com.
01:35:02
Speaker
you know, work a musical or something like that. But you know, like you can change the formula, you know, you can make changes to it. And as I said, again, like if you make a good film and a good story of well-written characters, like people will come watch it. People aren't going to be sitting there being like, oh, this is a really good film with fun action and good character stuff. But Arnie's not on it. So I'm this is a zero stars for me. Like I don't think maybe there are some people out there like that.
01:35:24
Speaker
but I think most people don't have that mindset. If they want to keep it going, please just do new things with it. I'm all for that. I love Terminator 1 dearly. I'm also a big fan of Terminator 2, but those films are there forever. I can go back and watch those films anytime. I don't need the Terminator franchise to rigidly stick to the core of those original films. It can go off and do its own thing. They can go off and do new things. I'm all in favor of that, but if it's just going to keep repeating, then I'm kind of done with it, to be honest.
01:35:51
Speaker
in the words of Keohorice, the future's not set, something about fate by a popcorn outside, that kind of thing. I use it to find my keys. That famous Keohorice line. Remember that scene in Terminator 1 where he drove a jeep, a big four by four. And then it went on fire and he was screaming and then he woke up. Yeah, because he was like, where are my keys?
01:36:16
Speaker
You know, like, are we retroactively creating the next Terminator? Like, dude, where's my Hummer? Oh my God, we are. That'd be the perfect way to put Arnie into it as well, to be honest.
01:36:27
Speaker
They're pretty much, you know, I feel sorry for them because it almost feels as if it's like do you want to come back and every time he says no and they'll say we'll give you like lots of money for it. It's a drop load of money, but okay then. Because say no serious, I've got nothing against Andrew Schwarzenegger for coming back to these films. If you were getting paid a ridiculous amount of money just to start these films, yeah, go for it. Oh god, yeah, like.
01:36:54
Speaker
I would do it if I became an 80s star. I would definitely keep coming back if it meant a huge paycheck. As you said it's just a shame that much like popes and Genesis it's just like the decaying skin of a franchise. Let's just peel you off now.
01:37:10
Speaker
it's a shame the way it is going but as you said at least we have the originals and at the end of the day that's all you can ask for. If people genuinely do enjoy these films like I'm gonna be honest that is okay like I'm not gonna sit here and be like oh you like Genesis, oh you like Dark Fate. If these are films you enjoy then all power to you and if you like certain characters like you love Danny or Grace or anyone like that or I was trying to remember someone the
01:37:37
Speaker
of Genesis, JK7 or...? Do you like Robot John Connor? The Pepsi machine they crashed through. That is perfectly fine, because at the end of the day, we've all got our own Terminator favourites and although I think it's safe to say that we both kind of dropped out after Terminator 3, the series kind of fell hard after that. Either way, I feel as if it has been quite the experience going through all these films again. So Adam, thank you so much for enduring all of these films again.
01:38:06
Speaker
Well thank you for taking me back on this journey. There were loads but at the end of the day I got to watch Terminator 1 and Terminator 2 again and I can't complain. I can't complain if I get to see those films one more time. And in the day I think there's things to like in all of these films. Not as much in some of them as others but at the end of the day it was fun to watch this again and to have a retrospective
01:38:26
Speaker
Yeah to remind myself of why I used to love Lissie, how much I do still have a love for this franchise and just to remind myself of that and to experience it again. So thank you very much for encouraging me
Conclusion and Future Teasers
01:38:36
Speaker
to do that. And thank you again to all the lovely listeners at home listening to our battle against the podcast bots. I feel as if the end of the conflict is very much near. So next week we are going to be doing our final push against them and we will be fighting really in your terms Adam.
01:38:55
Speaker
I've devised a grand strategy to win this war, and I'm entrusting it to my most trusted lieutenant, Satsunami. Oh, Satsunami's not here. Aw, man. That is his toaster speaking.
01:39:07
Speaker
right toaster microwave you're up. So yeah next week we will return for a very special trivia episode as the finale of Terminator Month but until then if you would like to listen to our previous episodes you can catch us on Spotify, iTunes, YouTube and really any good podcast app just look for the Red Panther under the name Chatsanami and we'll see you there. But until then stay safe, stay awesome and most importantly
01:39:37
Speaker
Don't put info on the microwave, it won't turn into a terminator. See you next time.