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S3:E15 Part 2: The Subtle Knife & His Dark Materials
37 Plays26 days ago
In the second half of our journey through The Subtle Knife and the remainder of His Dark Materials Season 2, we dive deep into the most emotional, intense, world-jumping stretch of the story so far. This is where destinies collide, secrets unravel, and the stakes rise higher than ever for Lyra, Will, the witches, the Magisterium, and Mrs. Coulter.
Hosted by Crystal with co-hosts Keri and Lindsey.
Books & Adaptations Mentioned:
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Question of the Episode:
- What’s something you wish could be done in a more subtle way?
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Thanks for listening to Based on a Book—see you in the next chapter!
Chapters:
(00:00) Introductions
(03:27) Book vs Series Breakdown — Episode 4 (SPOILERS)
(013:43) Episode 5
(29:33) Episode 6
(37:55) Episode 7
(50:59) Final Verdicts
(51:37) Question of the Episode
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to 'The Subtle Knife' and Adaptation
00:00:07
Speaker
And we're back. Welcome to another episode of Based on a Book, the podcast clumsily stumbling from one fantasy world to another. I'm your host, Crystal. And if ChatGPT tries to tell me it's angels, I'm swearing off technology for the rest of my life.
00:00:24
Speaker
I'm Carrie, and I think it's time to retire kids from apocalyptic prophecies. And I'm Lindsay. And I think kids are scarier than specters. That's true.
00:00:37
Speaker
This week we are continuing in the His Dark Materials series with book two, The Subtle Knife, and season two of the BBC HBO show. This is a two-part discussion, and you are in part two.
00:00:53
Speaker
If you have not listened to part one, go back. It's right before this one.
Show vs. Book: Which is Better?
00:00:57
Speaker
Today we're discussing episodes four through seven and offering our final verdicts, book versus show.
00:01:05
Speaker
But so far, let's take a temperature check. How are we feeling about the differences between the show and the book? Lindsay? I'm all for the show. I love the show.
00:01:15
Speaker
The show is great. The book just hit differently. Carrie? Yeah, I kind of feel the same. i do think that it follows the book pretty well.
00:01:30
Speaker
i mean, yeah, it does add a few extra things into the show, but I think it's a pretty decent adaptation.
Character Analysis: Lee's Portrayal
00:01:39
Speaker
I will say, though, I did notice this time around that Lee's character in the show feels very different than in the movie.
00:01:52
Speaker
I feel almost that they are Disney-fying. i feel like I say that a lot on this podcast. Yeah. Disney-fying the character, and I feel like they're definitely doing that in this show.
00:02:05
Speaker
And I'm kind of like, I need you all to pull pull it back a little bit. I wonder if they're Disney-fying it or if that's just Lin-Manuel Miranda. Yeah. I mean, that definitely could just be how his interpretation of the character, sure.
00:02:19
Speaker
ah he he's He is a Disney character. or i mean Very animated. He's very animated. i mean, let's say he's written Disney musical.
00:02:30
Speaker
you know like he he is Disney-fied. Yeah. and um yeah I'm afraid it shows a little bit in this. He feels much more serious in the book compared yeah the show. Yeah.
00:02:47
Speaker
and The show kind of, he's a bit of a, he's a bit of a goofy guy young the show. He's just a goofy guy. he's just cracking jokes and a goofy guy.
00:02:59
Speaker
i do. I think you're right on that one. So far I'm with you. ah The show for me is really, it it is following the story we're getting for the most part, we're getting a little bit of things that are eliminated, but a lot of things that are added, i think.
00:03:13
Speaker
you know Although we do diverge in a couple of story lines, I'm not really sure that it matters much.
Episode Four: The Ultimatum and the Subtle Knife
00:03:20
Speaker
hu But we are currently on the edges of our seats trying to figure out how Lyra and Will are going to get back the Alethiometer.
00:03:32
Speaker
So let's jump into episode four. I'm pissed. I'm livid. Lord Boreal has given them an ultimatum. if you get me the subtle knife, I will give you back the alethiometer.
00:03:47
Speaker
What is the subtle knife, you ask? Well, episode four opens with the tale of how it is forged. And this is to me, like...
00:03:58
Speaker
the this This is the fantasy trope that I love, right? That, like, the tale and the slow fading of images coming through and the ethereal voice telling you what happened in the past and what led us
Fantasy Tropes: Ethereal Voices and Multiple Names
00:04:13
Speaker
to now. Yeah.
00:04:14
Speaker
It's so Lord of the Rings. It's so perfect. never thought that as a fantasy trope, but I totally see what you're saying. Absolutely. And I freaking love it. I fall for this every time. i am seated. I like i am sat i with my snack. I'm not even... Because, you know, we all play on our phone while we're watching. No.
00:04:34
Speaker
No. Phone down. Eyes locked I'm locked in. You're like, what is the lore? Yeah. I want to know. So this was like... okay hit play like just i'm in it and then that part was over and don't me wrong i was still into it but i was back on my phone again all right adventure's over right yeah adventure's over wrap it up yep uh this episode is called tower of angels there are so many references in this particular episode about people feeling manipulated by fate, by God, by men, by prophecy, by whatever.
00:05:16
Speaker
It's almost...
00:05:19
Speaker
I feel like you almost choke on it. Like, okay, I get it. like i get it. But this is the episode where Lee Scoresby meets up with Stanislaus Grumman, John Perry, Joppery, all the same person. Yeah.
00:05:34
Speaker
And he's what could be. Okay, that is my fantasy trope that I can't stand. I'm with you. Is one person has like eight names. Hate it.
00:05:44
Speaker
Hate it. I'm with you. We're one place. hate that. I hate it when a place has a lot of names. Like, no it is not. i Like, Lord of the Rings is bad about it. And I love Lord of the Rings, but I don't care what it was called a thousand years ago. i don't care what the elves call it, what the dwarves call it, what, you know, would the, I don't, the Numenoreans call it. I don't want to know just what's the name.
00:06:08
Speaker
One name. the one name the one name and here we go you know john perry stanislaus grumman joppery the shaman wackadoo but also kind of kind of hot were they saying shaman in the show or did they say shaman okay I think Lee Scoresby called him a shaman multiple times because it's Lee Scoresby. Is that supposed to be his accent? I think so.
00:06:41
Speaker
think so. Okay. Also.
Will's Journey: Becoming the Knife Bearer
00:06:45
Speaker
Andrew Scott.
00:06:49
Speaker
Yeah. Andrew Scott. Also goes by Andrew Scott. It's another name.
00:06:59
Speaker
A fourth name. hmm.
00:07:02
Speaker
My notes in this particular episode are short and to the point. So I'm going to let you guys expand on this. Will gets the knife and loses his fingers.
00:07:14
Speaker
who Go. ah a in in the but In the book, it's his left hand. In the show, it's his right hand.
00:07:26
Speaker
um might be saying that backwards. I don't remember. Honestly, didn't look that hard. Oh, maybe it's because... Whatever hand it is, that is, like, maybe he's, like, right-handed or something. Like, what he would be using with a knife.
00:07:40
Speaker
That's what I was thinking, yeah. i think that this whole concept of the fact that whoever, like, holds the knife, losing their fingers, and things like that, like, i like...
00:07:59
Speaker
This type of is this is this a fantasy trope, I guess it kind of feels like a fantasy trope where it's like you have like this destiny when something happens to you whenever you get a weapon being marked by the prophecy.
00:08:16
Speaker
Yeah, like you're marked by the prophecy when you you have to like do something to get that weapon or something like that. Yeah, and it's not even necessarily like the web weapon, but it is like this is the thing that marks you as the person.
00:08:30
Speaker
yeah If you'd ever watched... um the mommy returns you would know that um you know the dude is marked on his he's got a scar tattoos on his wrists that marks him as one of the dudes who's gonna like which you really do need to watch the mommy and the money we return um also the boy that shall not be named is marked by bad guy and that marks him as the one you know like there's a whole bunch of like yeah yeah definitely likes that yeah yeah i like that a lot i'm pretty sure that there's something like this in thorn of glass like i'm trying to think of something particular but
00:09:12
Speaker
It that kind of thing. I was like, oh, I really like that that's in here. And I like how it's done in the show. i actually rewinded it and watch that entire scene back again because it just gave me chills. And I like that it transfers.
00:09:28
Speaker
From one person to another. Now this happened to you. So now this is your problem now. Right. Like it happened to me. yeah I like and now I'm seeing it happen to you. So I know it's my turn to let this go. Yeah. And now i need to show you how to deal with it.
00:09:47
Speaker
Right. And this is where we get what did we decide his name was? Giacomo. Giacomo. Giacomo Paradisi. Giacomo Paradisi, the original bearer of the subtle knife.
00:10:00
Speaker
in Well, i he's probably not the original, but the one and prior to Will. um sees Will's fingers get cut off, knows it's his turn to let go of the knife, but he has to teach Will how to use it.
00:10:13
Speaker
Now, the the kicker is that this knife protects him from the specters. And now that Giacomo has lost the knife, he knows he's no longer protected. So he knows he has a short life and a short amount of time to explain what to do to Will.
00:10:30
Speaker
And he does. He explains it to Will. Will catches on quickly. feel like in the show, he was a lot more friendly and loving towards Will. And that's what I'm looking for.
00:10:40
Speaker
Encouraging. He was a lot more encouraging than he was in the book. In the book, he was like, you got to get this done, bud. Let's go. Come on. I don't know. With the specters outside the gate, I probably would have been in a rush to, you know?
00:10:52
Speaker
Did you know that the actor who played Giacomo previously played Lord Asriel in the original BBC TV series? No, I didn't know that. It's the 2003 version, I think.
00:11:04
Speaker
Very cool. Very cool. In this episode, also back in our world, Will's World, Dr. Malone takes Lyra's advice and tries to get Dust to use words with her, with the cave, the computer, um and manages to make contact with Dust. And they tell her that they're angels.
00:11:26
Speaker
That's normal. Are we liking this storyline? Okay, listen. really need feedback on this. Yes and no. Because I think that, I think it's a little bit better done.
00:11:41
Speaker
It happens in the next episode where um Mrs. Coulter visits Dr. Malone and Dr. Malone says, you know, she says, like Dr. Coulter or Mrs. Coulter introduces herself as an experimental theologian.
00:11:53
Speaker
and um Dr. Malone says, like, so where does your where does theology intersect with science? And Mrs. Coulter says, where does it not?
00:12:05
Speaker
And that, I think, is the point here is that like. High level science that we don't understand looks like magic.
00:12:17
Speaker
High level magic that we don't understand is just science we don't understand yet. Right. So I think that's kind of where like the religion and the science kind of merge. So I'm not loving the way the storyline was done.
00:12:34
Speaker
but I don't hate the idea. Yeah.
Science Meets Theology: Dr. Malone and Dust
00:12:38
Speaker
What about you, Lindsay? What are you thinking? Kind of like what Crystal said, you know, I don't hate it, but it's also not my favorite storyline in the series right now.
00:12:48
Speaker
hu i am hoping to see it. I don't know, intertwine better. need it. I need it to all come together. Basically. who Trust me.
00:12:59
Speaker
it Yeah. It's about to go next book gets weirder. Uh, worse and better. Worse and better. Well, like, whenever this was revealed, i was kind of like, what? Angels?
00:13:14
Speaker
Angels? But we also have to remember that they're trying to speak in terms that they think she'll understand. And we've learned that Dr. Malone, prior to being a scientist, was a nun. Mm-hmm.
00:13:27
Speaker
Yep. oh you know, whatever this, these beings are, you know, maybe that was their only way of explaining what they were.
00:13:37
Speaker
You know, we don't have a better name than Angel. You know, we're some sort of divine spirit.
00:13:44
Speaker
yeah Which is still weird, but whatever. huh mrs Coulter is also... taken into will's world by lord boreal in episode four which leads us into episode five because he's he tells her that he knows where lyra is right because that is literally her main purpose her main purpose is where's lyra i need to get to lyra that is the only reason and she does she is aware that the witches have some type of There is a prophecy associated with Lyra.
00:14:20
Speaker
And so she wants to get to her to protect Lyra from whatever this prophecy is. Yep. Yep. So in episode five, we get a lot more references to the patriarchy and privilege.
00:14:39
Speaker
Specifically where Mrs. Coulter meets dr Malone. Yeah. And we see that glus like she goes to meet Dr. Malone to basically say like, hey, I think you've met my daughter Lyra. I'm here to take her home.
00:14:53
Speaker
And, you know, she says, like, hi, you must be Mrs. Malone. And, mrs you know, Mary says, doctor. and you can see right away that this kind of unnerves Mrs. Coulter.
00:15:04
Speaker
And then, you know, dr Malone starts asking more questions about her. Like, you know, oh, experimental theology. That sounds amazing. Have you had anything published? You know, like, wants to have a conversation with her, is interested.
00:15:18
Speaker
And you can tell right off the bat that Mrs. Coulter is uneasy with this. She is having some sort of reaction. She's triggered. And when Mary turns to like, oh, let me get you
Gender Oppression: Mrs. Coulter's Envy
00:15:30
Speaker
a cup of coffee.
00:15:32
Speaker
Mrs. Coulter bolts. yeah And we later see her back at Lord Boreal's house as they're waiting to see if Lyra and Will come with the knife. And she is trying to explain to Lord Boreal that like.
00:15:46
Speaker
i I went to school. i could have my doctorate. I had the highest scores. I was not allowed to call myself a doctor because I'm a woman.
00:15:58
Speaker
I've written so many papers and they could not, they would not be published unless I gave credit to a man, you know, and you can see her being incredibly resentful and just, and and of course, Lord Boreal, you know, is playing this awful, like that I found Dr. Malone to be prideful. I found her, you know, like you you can tell right off the bat that Lord Boreal doesn't like that the women in this world have the freedom to an education, to their titles, to what they've earned.
00:16:33
Speaker
And, you know, Mrs. Coulter's She basically says, do you know who I could have been in this world? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. and this is when i really do identify with her because i mean like how many times have you seen like the you know in this world the privilege that dr malone has to be a doctor is something that, you know, Marissa Coulter never had that.
00:16:58
Speaker
She was never, ever. She, the opportunity was never there. It was never going to be there. It didn't matter how hard she worked. It didn't matter how much she applied herself. Didn't matter how smart she was or what she did. She was never going to be called Dr. Coulter.
00:17:14
Speaker
And you can tell that in this moment, She's pissed. Yeah. And Lord Boreal is an idiot. Yeah. And she is known as to be this person in rooms of men that commands them. Like we see it throughout this entire series.
00:17:36
Speaker
She is the person that commands these people and will command the situation and she will get the shit done. And it makes you wonder because we see her...
00:17:48
Speaker
when When she's not in the room, we see the Magisterium people or anybody else talking about her like she's manipulative, she's evil because she's a woman, all this. So like behind her fate her back, there're they're talking shit about her.
00:18:02
Speaker
When she's in the room, they're obviously scared of her. They're they're intimidated by her. And it makes you wonder... Is she that way because she had to be that way to get anything that she earned or worked for?
00:18:18
Speaker
and in a different world, would she have been a different mother? in a different world, would she have been a different person? I'm telling you. She's complex. I could talk about this woman for ages.
00:18:30
Speaker
And you know what else is so crazy? So she's in this other world and she goes and talks to Dr. Malone. That's her name, right?
00:18:41
Speaker
Dr. Malone. And she leaves her demon at home. And this is insane. This is like, literally was shook. She leaves her demon and like literally, they're not supposed to be away from their demons. they're not You're not supposed to. And Boreal's like, where's your demon?
00:19:01
Speaker
Like, where's your demon? And she's like, you don't know anything about self-control? And she leaves her demons like freaking out. Like her demon is like really like upset and being like left in the room.
00:19:14
Speaker
Leaves the place. And goes to the college without her demon. No problem. She's like, you don't know anything about self-control? I was i like, oh yeah You crazy crazy.
00:19:30
Speaker
Like, I, like, that's insane. Like, I'm scared of her. I'm scared of Mrs. Coulter in the best way. like I think she is incredible, but like, obviously not a good person.
00:19:44
Speaker
Right. In a lot of ways. I liked when she was talking to Lord Boreal and she's like, you've obviously been coming to this world for a while. You're established. You have this house. You have all these nice things.
00:19:59
Speaker
You could have been bringing back. these great things from this world into our world and said you've been here the whole time making things better for you no just like collecting things yeah yep just like have a little mini museum in your place and then he like he says something shitty about like well i did this and i did that and she's like we're not talking about you this is not about you I love that she like put him in his place. Yeah. And I don't know how he didn't see... so good. She's going to kill him. We all know it. It's so obvious. And he's just like, oh, but she loves me. I'm doing good things for her and she'll be grateful.
00:20:42
Speaker
what What is the... And this whole thing of her... like Her perspective is just not in the
Power Struggles within the Magisterium
00:20:50
Speaker
book. No. And we don't see...
00:20:54
Speaker
This dynamic part of her character these we don't feel these up and down feelings about her character in the book.
00:21:05
Speaker
And I think that is such a disservice to this character. yep It really is. But speaking of things not in the book, also in this episode, we see how um Father Macphail, who is now Cardinal Macphail, did become the Cardinal.
00:21:22
Speaker
is starting to lose his grasp, his control of the magisterium a little bit as people start to question what's going on with the witches. The witches had then attacked a whole bunch of airships and made it through the rift and people are questioning like, what's this all about?
00:21:39
Speaker
Father MacPhail is all like, you have lost your faith and has Father Graves arrested and is now kind of in a panic and sends Fa Pavel...
00:21:51
Speaker
ah With his alethiometer that they have and says, figure out where Mrs. Coulter is. like Figure out what she's up to. Also in this episode, Dr. Malone gets a task from, gets officially assigned a task from Dust, Angels, whatever, to go protect Lyra and Will.
00:22:15
Speaker
And i I don't think this was done as well in the show as it was in the book. Because in the book, Dust, whatever, ah Angels explains to her, pack for a trip.
00:22:30
Speaker
deceive the guards, go through the door, you'll be protected, you have to play the part of the serpent. in the In the show, it's like, go you know go through the thing, deceive the guard, be the serpent. like kind of you know We will not talk again in this world, and then like shuts down the computer. I do like how it shut itself down.
00:22:53
Speaker
I like that. But I just really feel like it was... very you're a wizard moment rather than like like come on explain in book they're like hey you've got a task this is serious pack a bag you're gonna be gone for a long time me i need a list like i'm already confused right yeah i need i need you to tell me more right something i noticed like right before that with the magisterium i actually noticed
00:23:26
Speaker
I don't if we talked about this and in the Golden Compass, but, you know, I've been really trying to pick out where everyone's like demons are, right, in the show. And I'm noticing that they're really like trying to hide them more. And they even say this, they even say like,
00:23:43
Speaker
you know demons whenever lyra's explaining this to will she's like demons are sometimes hidden you know they're hidden on their person they're not always shown and they kind of show that more in the show in order to probably not be showing demons all the time right but i noticed with them with the magisterium they all have like some sneaky ass demons and nate snakes, snakes, spiders, yeah, yeah, yeah, lizards, insects.
00:24:14
Speaker
Yeah, I noticed that this time, like when they're all sitting at the table together, like evil little creatures. It's mentioned in the book when Will, we're in Will's perspective, and he's speaking with Lord Boreal before he knows who he is, and he thinks he sees the serpent in his sleeve,
00:24:33
Speaker
Which is really our first hint at who he is, yeah dan i think, at that point. yep um Lyra and Will, now with the knife, decide to cut from their side in Chittagatze into Will's Oxford kind of creeping up onto to Lord Boreal's house.
00:24:58
Speaker
Do you guys like how it looks in the show? Yes. I love it. It was well done. But I do have one complaint. Okay. This knife cuts into all the worlds. We are led to believe that there are lots and lots of worlds.
00:25:15
Speaker
How is it that he only ever cuts into the right one? was wondering that because they're like in the in-between world right that's right what this is should I got see is where all the windows are supposed to open
The Tension: Mrs. Coulter vs. Lyra and Will
00:25:28
Speaker
to Is because you have to think it like you want i want to go to this specific world?
00:25:36
Speaker
I don't know. don't know. doesn't really say in the book. Yeah. And it doesn't indicate that in the show at all. But we definitely like he as they're cutting, they'll cut a window and they're like, okay, we need to go like one more block this way or whatever. And so they try to figure out where one more block will be and then they cut another one.
00:25:55
Speaker
but it it keeps going back to the same the right oxford like you would think that it's at least at one point he would have cut accidentally into lyra's world we know of at least one other but but he keeps going to the right one that's a plot hole that i don't like but maybe it'll get filled up in the amber spy less it has been like 20 years since i read it i don't remember it yeah you know who knows yeah that makes sense But they do cut their way kind of, you know, block by block getting closer to Lord Boreal's house and decide that they're going to cut.
00:26:25
Speaker
Like in the book and in the show, it's a little bit different. I feel like it's a little bit less... In the book. That there's just. It's not quite as dramatic. um But in the show.
00:26:40
Speaker
Like they don't realize. That um Mrs. Coulter is there. Lyra goes to like ring the doorbell. To distract them. While Will cuts in right in the room. That they think that the.
00:26:53
Speaker
Alethiometer is in.
00:26:56
Speaker
Will gets caught. By Mrs. Coulter's demon. I love this is part. This is done really, really well, I think. It was almost like that part when they're screaming at each other again. i felt like we were back there again. Yeah, we were absolutely back there. It was so perfect. Oh,
00:27:15
Speaker
My gosh. whenever so Whenever Lyra comes in and she realizes Mrs. Coulter is there and Mrs. Coulter finally... That's them seeing each other again for the first time in like a long time.
00:27:29
Speaker
and Ever since you know this whole Azrael thing went down. And they're in they're in a different world too. They're both in this... Yeah. yeah yeah And literally, we saw in this scene Lyra become...
00:27:44
Speaker
Mrs. Coulter for a second. She was channeling her mother. This should just be called the show of mommy and daddy issues, to be honest. It is.
00:27:55
Speaker
It literally is Will with his daddy issues, Lyra with her mommy issues. This is what the show should be called. She literally channels her mother for a second. Pan attacks her.
00:28:07
Speaker
ah Mrs. Coulter's demon, who we never, we never learned that demon's name, but attacks the golden monkey. Lyra is just like, letting him like encouraging him she's just standing there frozen like but the way that she like her face yeah the way she six the demon on yeah it's the same way mrs coulter does with that little like that not yeah yeah and mrs coulter is literally letting her demon get trampled while she you know like manages to stand back up and is fighting against it mm-hmm
00:28:43
Speaker
And yeah, but, you know, Will manages to grab the alethiometer. They cut a hole through. they jump out of there just in time and seal up the the window afterwards.
00:28:54
Speaker
Did you notice that Pan becomes a Wolverine? Yes. well Daphne Keene was in the movie Logan, who's based on Wolverine.
00:29:05
Speaker
I just I'm from Michigan, so I hear Wolverine. I'm like, go big blue. But boo. Hey, hey.
00:29:16
Speaker
but So at this point, Lyra and Will go back to Chittagotze. They have the subtle knife and the alethiometer at this point. Mrs. Coulter and Lord Boreal and morboreal have to regroup. And at the end, he's like, you let her go. and she's like, you didn't tell me they had a knife that could cut through worlds.
00:29:35
Speaker
hu Because he's a jerk. um But now we're in episode six, which is called Malice. Paola and Angelica and some other kids attack Lyra and Will because they real they blame Will for Tulio's death slash zombification by Spectres.
00:30:00
Speaker
Ruta, Scotty follows some angels. Seraphina manages to find Lyra and Will in the... book in the movie right at the moment when they are needed to be rescued from these kids. I love this scene. That was such a good scene.
00:30:15
Speaker
felt like wasn't as good in the show though. Like in the book it was better. in The book was very dramatic. In the show you know they're like on a wolf wolf roof
00:30:28
Speaker
rooftop I can speak. I did not think that was the word you were trying to say. i don't know what I was trying to say. They're on a rooftop in the show and like they're kind of cornered and Serafina just lands.
00:30:42
Speaker
Yeah, she just lands there. In the book, it's more dramatic. I like a good dramatic. like Yeah, it's very dramatic in the book. Like, they're climbing this tower, trying to get away. But, like, and Will's cutting through, but realizes when he cuts through that they're up in the air. So they can't just, you know.
00:30:57
Speaker
um And they're at the point where, like, these kids are climbing the walls, trying to get it. It's very dramatic. And they're screaming. And they're screaming. And the witches can't land because they can see the specters. And it's...
00:31:08
Speaker
Because I think she sees her her demon first. Like, Lara sees Serafina's demon first. Well, now remember, too, in the... In the book, Lyra knows who Serafina is. They've met.
00:31:22
Speaker
In the show, they have not met. In the show, Lyra is and the kids at Bullvanger are saved by the witches, but the witches literally just show up. It was only one witch. Serafina shows up, saves a date, and books it, and then meets up with Lee and the balloon. Yeah.
00:31:42
Speaker
And so Lyra doesn't recognize them right away in the show. Mm-hmm. Mary, Dr. Mary Malone, is wandering around Chittagatze now, just taking in the sights, completely protected by angels.
00:31:57
Speaker
And Angelica and paulo Paula kind of realize that, like, why is this adult wandering around not being attacked? Does she not know what the hell's going on? And they kind of meet her and
00:32:17
Speaker
they They basically are like, you shouldn't be here. This is dangerous for you. and somehow, they they I guess they realize that like she must be safe.
00:32:29
Speaker
And they have a moment of and hugging her and holding her. and you know, like, you can stay with us. Yeah, because they haven't been around adults. They've been on their own, you know, at this point for so long.
00:32:46
Speaker
and that they're just kind of desperate for any sort of i guess adult guidance adult love like i don't think there's any kid who wants to be you know lost like that yeah it was really that part was really sad it really it really got me the actresses that played angelica and paola hello ramsey their their roles got extended to these scenes specifically because their chemistry was so good on screen that they extended those roles and honestly this little tiny bit of them looking for adult affection looking for care and concern and their grown-up or any grown-up i thought was really beautiful and i liked that that was added
00:33:42
Speaker
then Yeah. Mrs. Coulter convinces Lord Boreal to go through into Chittagatze.
Mrs. Coulter's Control Over Specters
00:33:50
Speaker
Even knowing that Lord Boreal is trying to tell her about the specters and warn her about the specters. And she's like, tell me more about them. And he kind of tells her. And she just you kind of see her going, hmm.
00:34:01
Speaker
She's like, dust. Yep. Gosh, she's so smart. She's so smart. She's so smart. And so she convinces him to go through to Chittagatze. And they do. And she figures out how to control them.
00:34:16
Speaker
Which is like, I'm like, oh my gosh, she's crazy. She's crazy. Like, I'm scared of this lady. But she literally, like, separates herself from her demon in order to do it. She blocks off. She tells him, I just ah just block away anything that makes me human. And then they're not interested in me.
00:34:34
Speaker
I forget the exact quote that she says in the show. But it was like something like when you know so much about it, you can like control control it.
00:34:51
Speaker
And like, cause she knows everything about dust. She knows the ins and outs of dust. Yeah. And that's why she has so much self-control over it.
00:35:03
Speaker
And that's why she's able to literally control Spectres. Which is like mind-boggling. This is the moment in the show where she poisons Lord Boreal.
00:35:15
Speaker
ah in the book it's a little bit different. She does kill him. It's very different in the book. It's very different in the book. There's like a weird seduction scene. It's very weird. Yeah.
00:35:26
Speaker
And honestly, I had me thinking, I'm like, yeah, what are, what do your demons be doing when that is going down? Okay, listen, you know what? I know this is like technically a kid's book, but I feel like this is an interesting, like conversation. So we're going there.
00:35:44
Speaker
I mean, they brought it up in the book. Yeah, they did it first. They did it first. first Like, okay, so your demon is your soul, right? Yeah. So I would feel like sex in any way, like there's a big difference between like having sex and making love.
00:35:59
Speaker
So I would feel like it depends, like if you're making love, that's not like on a soul romantic level. Like that is probably when your demons really partake.
00:36:11
Speaker
I don't know how. That'd be weird. Especially depending on what kind of demons they are. Mm-mm. Nope, didn't want to go there. Sorry, I'm macking out of this conversation now. I know it was this is my idea, but this is a bad one.
00:36:21
Speaker
what are they doing? It's weird. Oh gosh. I need to know what they're doing. I know, right? I'm scared to know what they're doing. I promise you there's fanfic out there, and if there isn't, there will be after this. so Why? Because you wrote it.
00:36:41
Speaker
No, not me. No, we but we promise you, promise you somebody's come up with it already. But yeah, you know, I was like, Lily think I'm like, what? Yeah. What are their demons doing?
00:36:55
Speaker
Weirdness. weirdness They're snuggling. like Are they in the room? yeah They were in this scene. they had they can't Because they can't be that far away from each other. yeah it hurt Most normal people with a demon, it hurts when they get too far away from their demon and they can't. yeah Mrs. Coulter's an exception.
00:37:14
Speaker
and and the witches. Yeah. but So the next part this episode, or to catch up with Scoresby and John Perry Joppery Grumman. They are attacked by Magisterium airships and are forced to land in the um In the book and in the show, Joppery uses his shaman powers to shaman up some winds. And in the show, it's, you know, birds or crows of some kind and storms. And and the whole time they're just trying to get to the person that has the knife. Just trying to the knife bearer. Yeah.
00:38:00
Speaker
You know, he's just got to get to the knife bearer. Episode seven is the last episode in the series. There were meant to be eight. Originally, there were eight written, but the pandemic struck and shut down filming.
00:38:14
Speaker
um Luckily, they had already recorded all of the seven episodes and part of the eighth and they were able to fit in part of the eighth into this one, which was actually meant to be, I think was supposed to be episode four.
Gathering Allies: Witches Assist Lyra and Will
00:38:27
Speaker
And it was supposed to be about Lord Asriel and what he was up to. Basically a lot of his perspective. But they did shoot parts of it. And that is that ending scene here in episode 7 that we'll get to in a little bit.
00:38:39
Speaker
But first, we enter with Ruta Scotti overhearing some cliff guests talking about a weapon that Asriel needs called the Asa Hater. Which is uses funky letters.
00:38:53
Speaker
it And this is why listening to the audio book is amazing because i that book would have that word would have stopped me in my tracks when I was reading it. It would have completely taken me out of the story while I figured out how to pronounce that.
00:39:03
Speaker
But it's Asa Hater.
00:39:07
Speaker
Rudascati then makes her way back to meet up with Serafina Pekla. Serafina and the witches are now with Will and Lyra and traveling with them through Chittagotse.
00:39:21
Speaker
and Basically saying that like, we're here to protect Lyra, whatever Lyra needs, we're here for. Lyra says she has to go with Will. So guess we're following Lyra and Will. Mm hmm.
00:39:33
Speaker
Mary takes Angelica and Paola to the adults campsite. And in the show, we see her begin to start following. Like, like flower petals of some kind.
00:39:46
Speaker
This is not in the book. and This we like once she enters into goes into the rift in the book, we don't really hear from her at that point. Mm hmm. Scoresby is holding off the magisterium so that Joppery can go find the ring bearer.
00:40:05
Speaker
Lee Scoresby and his demon Hester are behind some rocks. They're reminiscing about old times because they know they're not going to survive this.
00:40:17
Speaker
At the very last moment, after he's already been shot multiple times, he remembers that they have the the piece of cloud pine and can call for Serafina Pecola.
00:40:29
Speaker
And they do so with their last dying breath. Mm-hmm. You had that the whole time. And you didn't think to use it until that very last second. I know. That was so mad. death was shocking to me i kept thinking she still was gonna show up and save them i kept thinking but did you predict this at all lindsey no and let me tell you i was listening to the audiobook and i was doing something while i was listening and i literally heard it and i stopped and i said are you kidding me what just happened
00:41:08
Speaker
Like, the way it said, was like, and they, like, looked at each other, and they both died. And I was just like... And then they died. What? Yeah. i This is another one of those Shakespearean deaths, believe it or not.
00:41:24
Speaker
I can't even remember which Shakespeare play it is where he just writes, he dies. Mm-hmm. Because sometimes a death doesn't need poetry. It just...
00:41:35
Speaker
is and that is the most impactful thing you can say said he did and i don't know about y'all but i was also listening to the audiobook i was also doing things around my house and i had to sit down and i cried i cried think i was just more shocked in the audiobook but i did cry he would be saved i did cry in the show mm-hmm i I read this book again 20 plus years ago.
00:42:05
Speaker
i kept thinking he was going to be saved. It's a kid's book. The part where he's looking at his demon and he's like, don't you go before I do? Oh, you better shut up right now.
00:42:18
Speaker
Done. You better shut up. Done. That really got me goosebumps, man. Yeah. He's like, you don't, don't you go before I do. Mm-mm.
00:42:29
Speaker
Killed me. Joppery does manage to then find the knife bear who he, in the book, he doesn't know that that's his son.
00:42:40
Speaker
In the show, Will recognizes his dad because he's seen pictures of his dad. Mm-hmm. You know, I think in the in the book, we just can't see his face. It's kind of dark or wherever, you know, and they don't see each other well. Mm-hmm.
00:42:58
Speaker
in the you know In the show, we get kind of a touching scene of you know Will confronting his dad. You left me. And his dad being like, I did. His dad's like the whole time trying to just get to the person with the knife. He's like, it's my son. Like, dang.
00:43:13
Speaker
He had no idea that that was going to be his kid. And you can tell they have they have a moment of like, Will gets to confront his dad. He gets to have speak his mind for a minute. But he also like you know, John Perry also gets the chance to say, like, you are strong, you are a warrior and I'm
Emotional Climax: Joppery's Death and Asriel's Speech
00:43:31
Speaker
proud of you. And that, so that was kind of a beautiful moment. We don't get that in the book, quite the opposite in the book. He's just like, he's, he says, you're the ring bearer. You have to get this knife to Lord Asriel. You have a task to complete, do whatever it takes.
00:43:46
Speaker
And then a witch shoots him right as they're looking at each other and they realize it in that instant, but he dies. Yeah, okay, so why? Why did the witch kill him? Because they were lovers?
00:43:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's what it's- I was like, what? which is gorn like A witch scorned is a bad, bad thing, and it it comes up a few times in the books. But, like, I don't know why.
00:44:11
Speaker
Yeah, like, that was so bizarre to me. It was. i was like, that was so unnecessary. Did not like that. It made more sense in the show because they were being followed the whole time by the Magisterium.
00:44:25
Speaker
So it made sense that that's how he died. Right. was shot by them. He got shot in the back, right? yes But his jacket didn't have a hole in it.
00:44:39
Speaker
Shaman. Shaman. Yeah. yeah Also, like, instead of, like, pushing will out of the way, he just, like, covered him and stood there. Right.
00:44:51
Speaker
We couldn't push him. They were on cliff. Yeah, true. I was just like, you didn't think you it was goingnna the bullet was gonna go through you or something? Um, I was just messed up. I was like, that's interesting.
00:45:04
Speaker
Either way, Joppery, Grumman, John Perry, John Jacob, Gleimerschmidt, Connor. Yeah, he gone. He gone. Oh, we didn't even talk about the fact that we find out, like, Mrs. Coulter has this whole moment with a witch.
00:45:23
Speaker
Yes. with With the specters, because, you know, she's controlling the specters now. Right. And she is looking for Lyra and witch. was getting there. was the next thing on my list. Yeah. Okay, go, go, go, go. No, she does. She finds a witch.
00:45:35
Speaker
And because she's in Chittagotse now. Yeah. And so and the witch is going to like head back into town because they saw an adult into town and they want to make sure the adult with a demon knows that this is a dangerous place. They got to get out of here only to discover it's Mrs. Coulter.
00:45:49
Speaker
and Mrs. Coulter's like, I got you trapped now because she's got the specters and she tortures this one to find out what's this prophecy about Lyra. And we find out. That Lyra is known in the prophecy by another name.
00:46:03
Speaker
she's like, what's the name? goes, it's Eve. Yeah. And this is like, um it's all getting very, very religious. Like it's getting so religious. Super religious. Just seriously, I'll wait till the next book. I don't remember much, but i remember a little bit and it's wild.
00:46:21
Speaker
And she's like, she's knowing that this, like the, the second fall or something is coming. Yep. And I went and looked into this because I was like, what does that mean?
00:46:34
Speaker
You know, because as someone who is, you know, I'm not religious whatsoever, but i had to go look up what the heck that meant. And in term Christianity, to describe the transition, this is what the definition is.
00:46:51
Speaker
ah To describe the transition of the first man and woman from a state of innocent obedience to God to a state of guilty disobedience. Mm-hmm.
00:47:02
Speaker
I was like, okay, this interesting. Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden being hunted by the serpent. Mm-hmm. The serpent. Yep. Play the serpent.
00:47:14
Speaker
Yep. Dr. Malone. Mm-hmm. So we got we got these angels trying to convince Dr. Malone and like even kind of helping along Lyra and Will to play this role, this part.
00:47:32
Speaker
And we have... um And Asriel trying to get them to do this, right? But we have Mrs. Coulter actively fighting against that happening. She does not want that to happen.
00:47:46
Speaker
And she finds Lyra, and this is in the show, not in the book, she finds Lyra and captures her. Mm-hmm. This is when we see our end scene of the episode where Lord Asriel is making a speech just to the air. And this is the first time we're seeing him. First time seen him all season. air season All season. Again, though, that was COVID, so...
00:48:09
Speaker
ah But I do want to read this part because part of his speech that he's he's yelling is actually really hits. He says, my fight is with the authority and those doling out cruelties in his name those who seek to divide in order to control and who have built worlds founded on privilege and divine right rather than care and need I fight for freedom of knowledge and in place of deceit, intolerance and prejudice.
00:48:38
Speaker
I fight for the possibilities of understanding, truth and acceptance, but I cannot win these things alone. And in that moment, i was on Lord Asriel's team.
00:48:51
Speaker
i was like, I'm fighting with you, bro. Let's go down with the authority. Like, what? He won me. But then the angels pop out. like He's screaming into this nothing. He's yelling this. And, like, angels start to pop out.
00:49:05
Speaker
And they're basically like, we're with you. Let's go. So that was pretty cool. I keep going back in the end. Like, is he a good guy? Is he a bad guy? Like, he's good. Then he's bad. Then he's good.
00:49:16
Speaker
i think i think he's ultimately good. i think he did bad things. could And the means do not always justify the ends. You know? And I think... Like, if we remember, Asriel, I think Asriel and Mrs. Coulter, they were, like, on the same side at one point. Like, yeah working together. Mm-hmm.
00:49:37
Speaker
And then they, you know, went separate ways. But I don't remember why. What the circumstances were. think they had to. Yeah.
00:49:48
Speaker
Because of the baby. Yeah. But now, you know... ah Mrs. Coulter taking Lyra is like, I'm not letting any of this happen. I'm not letting you be anything a part of this prophecy, part of whatever is happening. yep I'm going to protect you at all costs.
00:50:07
Speaker
And in the show, i was like, what the heck? she's yeah She had Lyra in a box. In a box. Well, she's like traveling with this box. and I was like, please don't tell me Lyra's in there. She opens it. I'm like, oh my gosh.
00:50:20
Speaker
I thought the same thing. Coulter, did you guys hold on and see the post credit scene? No. There's a post credit scene. It's very short.
00:50:32
Speaker
It is Roger. And he is calling out Lyra's name. And Lyra goes, Roger, Roger. And he yells, Lyra, Lyra. And she goes, what is this place?
00:50:45
Speaker
Darkness. I just got full body chills. i did not see that. yeah So good. So good. I literally got head to toe chills.
00:50:57
Speaker
I did not see that at all. why Okay. Okay. Well, that's it. That's it. Oh my gosh. So, and I, I mean, I guess I don't really have to ask. What did we think? Book or show?
00:51:10
Speaker
I have to go show. I'm sorry. Yeah. People probably will hate me for that, but I like the show more. It's so good. I like this book better than I liked the first book.
00:51:22
Speaker
I enjoyed reading because i I think because I knew the characters and stuff. But honestly, this show just slaps. it It's so good. really is. i mean, i don't know. i I'm interested to see where we fall after reading the next book and seeing the last series.
00:51:43
Speaker
um But that brings us to the question of the episode.
Humor and Relatability: Wishing for Subtlety
00:51:45
Speaker
In the Golden Compass, Lord Asriel blasted his way into another world in the most dramatic way possible, literally changing the magnetic poles of the planet he was on.
00:51:59
Speaker
We found out in the subtle knife that there was definitely an easier way to do this, a very classy way to get it done, by gently cutting through between the threads of time and space. But what is something that you wish there was a subtler way to accomplish?
00:52:16
Speaker
Carrie? I'm going to say listening in on other people's conversations. That's fair. I always think of that one infomercial.
00:52:29
Speaker
you You know what I'm talking about. za that used to be one I had one of those. No, you did not. It was like that. Listen up infomercial. but It was like they would have it where it's like if you need to like you can't hear the TV or you need to like hear conversations or you can hear your neighbor from across the street a hundred feet away and hear what they're saying.
00:52:53
Speaker
evil I need that. I need that today. didn't work because I can't hear shit. I need that now. Super subtle. Super subtle. Yeah. What about you, Lindsay? What'd you think?
00:53:07
Speaker
Me? I wish I could exist subtly. Oh my gosh. That's fair. I'm always like tripping or falling or walking into something or, and it's usually really loud.
00:53:20
Speaker
So knees cracking you're walking, popping. Yeah. feel that Me. but For me, I, I literally thought of this question while I was trying to get on this, like somewhat compression-y sports bra.
00:53:36
Speaker
And I was like stuck and trapped in it. There, Oh, it's the worst. Any sort of shapewear, Spanx, anything like that. There is no graceful way to get that on.
00:53:47
Speaker
um But I did ask my daughter what she thought. And she said that eating things like crab legs, lobster, crawfish, like anything like that. there's There's just no cute way to do that.
00:53:59
Speaker
So that was funny.
00:54:02
Speaker
Well, how did we do, guys? What did you think of our conversation on The Subtle Knife? Check out our socials and let us know. or follow the link in our show notes to submit an adaptation you'd like us to cover, because next season we'll be dedicating three episodes to listener submissions.
00:54:19
Speaker
Get yours in now. Don't forget, next season we will be catching up with Lyra and Will as we read The Amber Spyglass and watch season three of his Dark Materials. And of course, you can join us next week as we continue Fifty Shades of Grey with Fifty Shades Darker, hosted by Carrie.
00:54:38
Speaker
But until then, don't forget to close every door you open. Don't wait until it's too late to ask for help. And don't blindly trust chatbots.
00:54:49
Speaker
See you on the next chapter of Based on a Book. Bye!