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S4:E3 The Shining (1980 Film)
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This week, we're heading into the snowbound terror of The Shining and comparing it to Stanley Kubrick's iconic adaptation. We break down how the novel and the film tell very different stories, from character motivations to thematic intent, and why King's version and Kubrick's version often feel like two completely separate nightmares.
Hosted by Lindsey with co-hosts Crystal and Keri.
Books & Adaptations Mentioned:
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Thanks for listening to Based on a Book—see you in the next chapter!
Chapters:
(00:00) Introductions
(01:21) Ratings and Non-Spoiler Discussion
(14:29) Book vs Movie Breakdown (SPOILERS)
(56:00) Final Verdict & Question of the Episode
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast & Hosts
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome to Based on a Book, the podcast that delivers your weekly dose of page-to-screen discussions. Here's Lindsay, and I've come to make sure you take your medicine.
00:00:21
Speaker
I'm Crystal, and I hated working at a resort, not because of the ghosts, but because of the guests. I'm Carrie, and my new fear is sculpted shrubbery.
00:00:34
Speaker
So today, we're continuing our listener submission theme with the title suggested by Hannah from Horror Hour with the Hannahs.
Focus on Stephen King's 'The Shining'
00:00:44
Speaker
And in this episode, we're covering The Shining by Stephen King and King's least favorite adaptation of any of his works, the 1980 adaptation directed by Stanley Kubrick and starring Jack Nicholson and Shelley Duvall.
00:01:03
Speaker
So, for those who don't know, the Shining follows the Torrance family as Jack takes on a winter caretaker job at a remote a mountain hotel, completely cut off from the outside world.
00:01:16
Speaker
What's meant to be a fresh start quickly turns into a pressure cooker as isolation, personal demons, and the hotel's unsettling history begin to take their toll.
00:01:27
Speaker
It's a slow burn, psychological horror about family, obsession, and the terrifying ways a place can get inside your head.
Hosts' Ratings and Thoughts on the Book
00:01:36
Speaker
But before we begin to spiral, I want to get into our book ratings. And I want to start with Crystal. I had a feeling. Well,
00:01:51
Speaker
I didn't hate reading this, but I definitely stalled for a very long time. I was just intimidated by reading this one. I have learned to love a lot of Stephen King's work, so it wasn't that I didn't want to read Stephen King or that I didn't want to read The Shining. It's just a big book and I've just not been in the mood.
00:02:10
Speaker
um But I read it and I did not hate it, ah but I didn't really love it either. i gave it three topiary animals. It just, I don't know it hit in a few ways. Like the plot was interesting. It was definitely like had me wanting to know more about what was going on. I was invested in in these characters. um But also like like we've said with quite a few of Stephen King's works, there were a lot of crude moments that I felt like just didn't need to be there.
00:02:40
Speaker
There was, there was racism, but I feel like it was appropriate for the timeframe of the story, but also it kind of sucked having to hear it again. and yeah, the, just overall, some of it just didn't hit.
00:02:55
Speaker
It kind of gave me the ick, but I'm glad I read it. So yeah. Totally fair. Carrie? i keep wanting to laugh at you. Here's Lindsay! this is why we did not discuss our intros before.
00:03:14
Speaker
Exactly. It's like, i want to be surprised. was surprised. I... I'm with Crystal. This actually took me a really long time to read. i Every time I thought I was almost done, I was like, wow, I still have 200 pages left.
00:03:30
Speaker
But I actually like kind of enjoyed this one. like I actually kind of really liked it. I didn't love it. like It wasn't my favorite Stephen King. But I ended up giving it four shines.
00:03:46
Speaker
surprisingly, like I said, kind of liked it. i would I think I would have given it a higher rating. Like Crystal said, there's very cringy moments in this book. Also, I felt like it wasn't as scary as I thought it was going to be.
00:04:04
Speaker
I think it could have upped on the scare scale. Okay. um I wanted it to be like more ghost, like more ghosty vibes. And I felt like it could have been better, more scare.
00:04:19
Speaker
I feel that. Yeah. I think because I've recently read It. And I'm learning Stephen in King. i'm I'm understanding his writing more. And, you know, before we did a lot of his short stories and stuff, and they don't really compare to his full length novels. Mm-hmm.
00:04:43
Speaker
With that being said, I actually really enjoyed this story. Okay. And I always hear how boring the book is and how nothing happens. But I feel like it was such a good build up to when things actually start happening.
00:05:00
Speaker
And then the entire time I was reading it, actually kind of felt like Jack and I was like obsessing over this hotel. So um I actually gave
King's Inspiration & Adaptation Dissatisfaction
00:05:10
Speaker
this one four and a half visions. Okay.
00:05:12
Speaker
Oh! I actually upped my original rating from like a two and a half to a three, specifically because I loved the way it's written. this this Like Stephen King's different devices that he literary devices he uses throughout the book to, in my mind, build that intensity. The the repetitive nature of some of like going back to, you know, smaller stories, but we don't really, or, you know, past stories that we don't really associate with what's happening now, but Jack's slow descent into insanity.
00:05:45
Speaker
like I really loved that build. So i don't know who's saying that nothing happens in this book. So much happens in this book. Shut up. Yeah. I, you know, i actually talked to Lindsay about this cause I'm reading it with Lindsay as well.
00:06:01
Speaker
where things that I didn't like about Stephen King's writing before, I'm actually learning to appreciate where there's a lot of description, right? There's so much description, ah whether it's the setting, whether it's just like everyday tasks that a character is doing, but then...
00:06:22
Speaker
you know, you just have to push through those moments where it feels kind of boring. You're like, why am i reading just like things that this person is doing every day?
00:06:32
Speaker
Because when big moments happen to these people, they impact you like nobody's business because you're like, wait, that's Danny.
00:06:43
Speaker
Wait, yeah that's Jack and Wendy. Like I know these people. like You become invested in these yeah characters. Yeah, like invested like I've never been invested before because I follow them in their everyday life.
00:06:59
Speaker
I'm following their every internal thought, even the thoughts that I don't care to hear about. Yep. It really makes the story that much more immersive. And I was thinking about your comment when we were reading it. I was thinking about that. I was like, wow, i I really feel it in this book. Yeah. And then whenever, you know, they're trapped in this hotel, they're kind of like the isolation and slowly going into like insanity in this way. hmm.
00:07:32
Speaker
it affects them more than ever. And you're pushed with these characters to that level of insanity with them. And you wouldn't feel that way if you weren't with them in the beginning. Right.
00:07:51
Speaker
Whenever they were just doing their everyday tasks or whenever they were going through their emotional, whatever they were dealing with emotionally In the very beginning. Before they even got the hotel.
Character Portrayals in Book vs. Movie
00:08:05
Speaker
Like the first quarter of the book. They're not even in't living in the hotel yet. i don't think about. It feels like that much at least. But that part of the story is so important to what happens in the hotel because like almost like the hotel is gaslighting this family. But you wouldn't know that these things have such a big impact on this family if you didn't know their past. If you didn't know the thoughts that they were having while they stopped to make a phone call. you know If you didn't know...
00:08:38
Speaker
the Danny had had this experience at school previously or whatever. You wouldn't know that what just happened at the hotel was such a big deal if you hadn't known the past.
00:08:51
Speaker
Yeah. yeah Exactly. And just to get a little a little bit more backstory on Stephen King and... him writing this book. He got the idea when he and his family were staying at the Stanley Hotel in Colorado, and they were the last guest at the hotel before it closed for the winter. And he saw a group of nuns leaving the hotel, which made him feel like the place had suddenly become godless.
00:09:22
Speaker
And the King family actually stayed in room 217, which is the haunted room in the book. Of course, they changed it to 237 in the movie, but we'll talk about that later. But then he also saw a fire hose in the hotel, which reminded him of a snake. So that's why you also get that within the book. So I feel like the way King, I don't want to say that he puts his real life into the stories because obviously all of his stories are horror based.
00:09:55
Speaker
But he does put a lot of himself into these stories. And I really like that. Yeah. I feel like he puts a lot of himself specifically in this one. Especially since this is like the beginning of his writing career. This is very early on in his writing career. I feel like you can feel it.
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah. You can feel like the magic happening. Like in the writing. I don't know. Like it just like. I love it. Also, with the Stanley Hotel, didn't he stay in the room that's like known as the haunted, like one of the main haunted rooms at the Stanley Hotel? 217. Yeah, isn't 217?
00:10:38
Speaker
That's like a very haunted room there. know extra to stay in that room now and they only stay for like four hours or something weird like that. Mm-hmm. so I guess I'll go ahead and say it now. The reason they changed it from 217 to 237 in the movie is because the hotel that was used for the outside,
00:11:01
Speaker
filming is an actual hotel and people they didn't want people to go to the hotel for room 217 so they made up a fake room number that isn't actually at the hotel so 237 so they didn't have a lot of guests yeah they didn't want people like afraid to stay in that room it was at like the timberland lodge or something yes that's where it was filmed exactly yeah they're like we don't want people actually scared to stay here yeah So change the room number. And then, like i mentioned earlier, Stephen King was so disappointed with this adaptation.
00:11:40
Speaker
He felt that Kubrick diverged from his vision. And in an interview in June of 1986, um... ah Stephen King actually said that it's like a great, big, beautiful Cadillac with no motor inside. You can sit in it and enjoy the smell of the leather upholstery.
00:12:01
Speaker
The only thing you can't do is drive it anywhere. So I would do everything differently. The real problem is that Kubrick set out to make a horror picture with no apparent understanding of the genre.
00:12:14
Speaker
but So King eventually went to... write and produce his own mini series of the shining in 1997 but obviously not many people are talking about that one they are not seen that one have you like i liked it that one freaked me out and is a huge part of why i didn't want to watch or i didn't want to read this book because i kind of i was like oh i already know it i already know it it's not that big of a deal i kind of don't feel like it so yeah I liked that one. I kind of want to watch that one.
00:12:46
Speaker
i do too. I haven't watched it. Yeah. i I plan on rewatching it. It's been a long time. So yeah.
Danny & the Hotel as Characters
00:12:51
Speaker
And I'm pretty sure like Stephen King wrote a screenplay for the movie for Kubrick, but he was like, so he didn't like it. Like Kubrick was like, no, this is, he's not a good screenwriter. He picked up another author to write the screenplay.
00:13:10
Speaker
ah Because you can see, I forget the author's name, but it says at the beginning credits of the movie. It's like, it's based on this novel, but the screenplay is written by this author. I'm like, that's horrible. That's horrible. Because Stephen writes the best f freaking movies. We all know that by now. Yep, we always say that.
00:13:32
Speaker
Yep. ah But the film was also shot in the same film studio that was used for Star Wars Episode V, The Empire Strikes Back. And Stephen King visited the set of both films, and he met director Irvin Kishner.
00:13:52
Speaker
And this later became the basis for part of his book, It... So Kirshner had been nicknamed Kirsh and was directing the first Star Wars films to feature Yoda. And in the Stephen King book, it there's a character named Mrs. Kirsh who is said to sound like Yoda when she talks.
00:14:12
Speaker
oh that's so i thought so was funny. I thought that was really interesting. Yeah, that's a funny connection. i love that. That's pretty cool. Was there anything else we wanted to discuss before we get into spoilers?
00:14:28
Speaker
No, because i need to talk about this movie. I'm so ready to dive in. I need to talk about it so bad. Yeah, I'm excited. But from here on out, the doors are unlocked and we're going all the way in. This discussion contains full spoilers for The Shining by Stephen King and the 1980 film adaptation, plot twists, character breakdowns, the ending.
00:14:51
Speaker
If you haven't checked out or checked into The Overlook yet, oh but now but now's your chance to turn back. We'll be here when you're ready. It also wouldn't be a Lindsay episode without a good content and trigger warning.
00:15:06
Speaker
This episode discusses domestic violence, child endangerment, alcoholism, and addiction, psychological breakdowns, isolation, supernatural horror, and death.
00:15:18
Speaker
We'll also touch on emotional abuse and intense mental distress. So please listen with care and don't hesitate to step away if you need to. So, book.
00:15:32
Speaker
yeah Book. Much different than movie. Yeah. Just a little. This is my first time watching this movie. I've never seen this movie before. Same.
00:15:48
Speaker
I thought I had seen the movie before. I don't know if I just don't remember a lot from it, ah but it was very different from what I remember. Or I just don't remember a lot of aspects. I don't remember a lot of scenes.
00:16:01
Speaker
Yeah, I've seen bits and pieces in clips because it's an iconic movie. Everybody knows, you know, all work and no play makes Jack the Dole Boy. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows here's Johnny. You know what I mean? Like, everybody's seen these little bits and pieces, but I had never seen the whole movie ever.
00:16:19
Speaker
And I'm just, you know what? i' i'm not I can't wait. I can't wait to tell you how much I'm i'm just mad about Wendy. I'm just mad about Wendy. She was, like, reduced from this, like like, she was not, like, some crazy alpha, strong female in the book, but she wasn't a weakling. She wasn't a wimp.
00:16:39
Speaker
And, like, they first go to that the the resort at the very beginning, and she's they're being kind of given the tour, and she's like... Oh, wow. Everything is so grand. I love pink and gold. They're my favorite color. She's like this simpering, ditzy.
00:16:57
Speaker
wit i hated her. That was not the Wendy I read in the book.
Famous Scenes & Storytelling Choices
00:17:02
Speaker
And even Stephen King has even talked about this publicly, that he hates how they portrayed Wendy in the film.
00:17:13
Speaker
Mm-hmm. yeah Among his many criticisms of the movie, he envisioned Wendy as a blonde, former cheerleader type who had never faced real hardships, which would make her ordeal at the Overlook especially terrifying. And yeah, he felt Duvall was emotionally vulnerable and a little more experienced than the Wendy in the book, honestly.
00:17:45
Speaker
They were opposites. Yeah. Honestly, like, let's be honest here. Danny, Jack, and Wendy, are All three of them are extremely complex in the book. Yes. Compared to movie.
00:18:01
Speaker
The movie is giving one-dimensional characters. okay Okay. So we are trapped in this hotel with them, basically. Right? So there's only four people in this hotel.
00:18:15
Speaker
Jack, Wendy, Danny, and the reader. That's it And if you want to count the overlook itself, it's a character absolutely yeah in the book.
00:18:25
Speaker
Absolutely. But we get to know those three people incredibly well because there is, we don't have a bajillion side characters happening. I mean, yes, there are some, but they're not in and out of every page. They're not in and out of every scene, you know? So we get to know these deep, complex, multidimensional characters. Yeah.
00:18:48
Speaker
And this movie, they were so flat. Yeah. It was bothering me so bad because in the beginning of the book, like you said, like a good like chunk of the beginning of this book, we are introduced to Jack where, you know, he is an alcoholic, you know, and at this moment that we're meeting him, he's also like,
00:19:15
Speaker
trying to, you know, be sober, trying to recover from being an alcoholic. um It also has serious anger issues. You know, has you know, had a big incident with his child where he, you know, got so angry, dislocated like the shoulder of his child. You know, Wendy was about to divorce him, but it's like,
00:19:39
Speaker
With Jack and Wendy, like their relationship, like they're trying to work on their relationship for Danny. And Danny loves his dad. Yes. Danny adores his dad. And Jack legitimately wants to be a better person for his family. We find ourselves, least I did, I found myself rooting for Jack. Yeah. Because he was making actionable steps towards not drinking anymore, drinking anymore, Towards settling back into a writing career for being able to provide for his family being more present for his wife and his son.
00:20:16
Speaker
And we see him taking those steps. Nowhere in the movie does that happen. Like, I'm sorry, this might get me into some trouble here. But the second, because I know everyone loves this movie, and I know everyone loves Jack Nicholson. But it really pissed me off. the second Because I had just finished the book, and I immediately watched the movie. That I just get this smirking little jerk yeah sitting at his interview. and you know, just like, it wasn't giving...
00:20:50
Speaker
You know, caring father, loving husband. Yeah. Like we had to get we needed to get both like, yeah, he did have his jerk moments, but we had to get both like, why is Wendy with this person?
00:21:03
Speaker
why Why should we care about Jack? Yeah, exactly. Why should we care about anything that's happening to this family? And mentions repeatedly that he quit drinking, that they don't drink. oh But we never really understand. like There's a catalyst for why he stops drinking.
00:21:19
Speaker
yeah We don't really ever learn. Which wasn't because of Danny. no No. Which is what they use in the movie. It wasn't because of Danny. It was because of him almost hitting...
00:21:32
Speaker
Somebody in a car accident. are Yeah. So, you know, we don't get any of that. We don't get, you know, that he is reinvesting in his relationship, that he is trying to make this work. We don't really see that or get that impression at all. In fact, from the very beginning, he's a dick to his wife.
00:21:54
Speaker
hu You know, he was meant to be... like You know, trying to be a loving father. That's why he took this job. Yep.
00:22:05
Speaker
And but right off the bat. He doesn't seem to care about his wife and his child as they're going to this hotel. Yeah.
00:22:16
Speaker
And what did you guys think of, like, the hotel? Like, was it what you pictured? Because I i don't know why. It's not exactly what I pictured. It's definitely not what I pictured. Okay.
00:22:27
Speaker
I pictured more lodgy. And, i've you know, I've been to Colorado and I've seen some, like, wintry lodges. So they do, like, I have seen some like that, you know. But I've also seen the, like, more, like, lodges.
00:22:40
Speaker
timber-y looking ones, you know? Like, wooden lodge ski lodge type, I guess. I didn't really get that feeling. But it wasn't meant to be a ski lodge. It was meant to be a summer resort, so. It was more the windows for me. Yeah.
00:22:54
Speaker
Yeah, and I was also disappointed that they didn't include the elevator. Like, I felt like the elevator was such a big part of the story and how creepy it was.
00:23:06
Speaker
um And the fact that that wasn't even in the movie, I was like, wow. Yeah. Well, you know, it's part of the hotel coming to life and just left out part of the hotel's life.
00:23:17
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I think they left out about 80% of the hotel's life, to be honest. The hotel was a physical presence like and could influence the physical world at a certain point in the book, you know, was making things happen. Yeah.
00:23:39
Speaker
yeah And we don't really get that as much in the movie. Other than... I gotta know, what's with the tidal wave of blood? Where did that even come from? That's not in the book. at least Did I miss that in the book? Is it in... Okay.
00:23:55
Speaker
Because I just don't get that part. And it's supposed to be like... And it's a very iconic shot. Yes. Known in the movie as well. so like, standalone...
00:24:08
Speaker
I don't think this is a bad movie. I get why people like it. I get why it gives people the creepy crawlies and they enjoy it. But as a a book adaptation, is so different from this book.
00:24:26
Speaker
It changes. i don't know. the The characters change. The plot's still kind of there. But I don't know. It just...
00:24:37
Speaker
I understand why people love it. I do. But I also don't. You know? Yeah. ah Yeah. I agree. Film wise, cinematography, like all of that is gorgeous. But as far as storytelling goes, it's super flat.
00:24:55
Speaker
hmm. Well, I did notice like the way the time is passing, right? So it shows us like one month later, but then it shows us like a week later and then it shows us the next day and then it shows us 8 a.m., 4 p.m. to like it's building, it's moving faster, things are going. So there were like some very Kubrick devices in there that I noticed.
00:25:19
Speaker
um And so I kind of see where people can look at it and be like, well, From the film standpoint, the device is, yeah like, I get it But also, this was meant to be a scary story about a haunted hotel and a man's slow descent into insanity.
00:25:38
Speaker
There was no slow descent. No. It was just, no. He was already a jackass when he got there. And then he just went psycho jackass. Yeah.
00:25:50
Speaker
That's the thing, though. That's what just drives me so crazy is that we should have seen the good parts so that we could see the hotel was bringing out his jackass. You know what mean? Right. We watched the hotel break this man. Yeah.
00:26:05
Speaker
And bring out the worst parts in him. That was the point. They ripped apart this family. And at no point did we feel, at least to me, I did not feel invested in this family at all. yeah I didn't care. Yeah, that's unfortunate. Yeah. I think the only thing I really liked about the movie was, since we're talking about like the cinematography, the points where we are in Danny's perspective, like at his level, going down the hallways.
00:26:36
Speaker
ah Terrifying. I was like, bring me back up. Bring me back up. I don't want to be down here at this point of view. i don't want to be. It's like you feel vulnerable and you feel scared that you're this low to the ground right now.
00:26:48
Speaker
I was like, no, bring me back up. From the cinematography parts that I really noticed that kind of hit me was like when they're first driving to the hotel or like the big wide shots of the surrounding area and going to to almost like more, especially when the snow starts falling and we start getting those wide angle shots of the snow. Mm-hmm.
00:27:12
Speaker
to like harder hit how isolated they are how far away from anyone there they are how hard it would be for anyone to get it really kind of intensified that alone and but claustrophobic feeling yeah yeah was speaking of Danny he yeah what did we think of Danny wait I have something funny to say I had never heard.
00:27:42
Speaker
but Well, I knew i had heard of red rum, but I didn't know what was from. And I didn't know what it meant. And it took me.
00:27:59
Speaker
I didn't know what it meant. And everyone was laughing at me when I kept saying, I don't know what red rum means. wow Literally the entire time I'm reading it, i was like, wow, to experience red rum and not know what it means. it was me. It was me. Wow.
00:28:19
Speaker
I had no idea. These are the moments I love our podcast the most, you guys. I literally had no clue. No joke. I didn't know what it meant until it was revealed.
00:28:31
Speaker
Okay. I literally was like, I wish I could go back in time to when this book came out so I could experience Red Rum for the first time without knowing what it meant. That is amazing. That was me on my couch over the weekend. I'm jealous. Kind of, yeah. i literally was like, oh my god.
00:28:50
Speaker
What a lovely reveal that must have been for you. It was great. am jealous. You're right, Lindsay. Damn, I'm jealous now too. Well, you know, I knew what it meant, but I didn't know how it was revealed. So I did at least get that. And I thought that was satisfying. But to not know what it meant and get that reveal. Yeah.
00:29:09
Speaker
I literally had no idea. That's awesome. I do love in the book, though, how Danny is so desperate to learn how to read because Tony shows him these visions and they have signs in them and he wants to be able to read the signs so that he understands them better. Yeah. Like that is such a six-year-old, five-year-old, six-year-old thing to do. i just think that's amazing.
00:29:35
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, so Danny in the movie... Oh my God. Dude, Danny in the movie. Come on, man. i mean, I get child actor. What are you going to do? But also like, what did they make this? Okay. First of all, why is Tony live in his mouth?
00:29:53
Speaker
didn't like that. didn't like when he kept saying that. I hated that so much. you wo And then the doctor's like, can I see him? if you open your mouth, he's like, no. no He's in my stomach now. No.
00:30:08
Speaker
So did that when he goes into the red rum fiasco, do you know he says it 43 times? Oh my God. I'm not even surprised. i was like, wrap this up. Pretty much. Okay. So like, have you ever seen, this is going to sound random, but have you ever seen Christmas Eve on Sesame Street?
00:30:30
Speaker
I can't say that I have. No. Oh my gosh. There is this kid who's like, where's Big Bird? The entire your time. And I swear this kid is literally like, can't even open her eyes and just the whole time she's like, we gotta find Big Bird. We gotta to find Big Bird. Like, her eyes are closed. And, like, she literally, like, we always talk about, she's like, they're either, like, filming this in the middle of the night, or this the child is drugged. Like, no joke. And that's how I felt about Danny.
00:31:02
Speaker
felt that about Danny. i was like, as he okay? Yeah. Like, there's no personality coming out of this kid. Is he okay? They made him kind of, like, petulant and shy. Like, he wasn't talking to to Dick, whatever his last name is. Halloran. Thank you, Halloran.
00:31:21
Speaker
I kept wanting to say Houlihan. I knew that one right. Close. Close. But i he kept he wouldn't – like, it in the movie, he wouldn't talk to him. he was, like, being shy and, like, you know, I'm not allowed to talk about it or whatever. Whereas in the book, he was like, oh, my gosh, I think this guy's like me. I'm so excited to meet someone else like me.
00:31:41
Speaker
And I kind of – I don't know. I feel like in the book, he was – okay, I'm going to speak from – as the expert on this one because I live with a six-year-old.
00:31:53
Speaker
He, in the book, was more childlike, more innocent, more curious, more... he he was a little reserved at times because he seemed to know a little bit more because he has The Shining and Tony is, you know...
00:32:12
Speaker
helping to guide him or whatever. And so he kind of knew when to say things, when not to ask, but he still was polite and fun and interested in talking to people and a very like a very childlike five-year-old.
00:32:29
Speaker
And in the movie, he is...
00:32:35
Speaker
almost like an abused child, you know, withdrawn in introverted. And like he has been through significant trauma. And we know that he had been through some trauma, but he seemed to be really handling it well in the book, kind of bouncing back from it, making, you know, mentally handling it well and logicing that stuff out. Whereas in the movie,
00:33:04
Speaker
He was just weird.
King's Writing Style & Themes
00:33:06
Speaker
It was not right. i actually wanted to say something about that. so Book Danny is a lot more confident in himself. And he speaks openly about The Shining. Wendy and Jack know about it. And I feel like, and they even explain it, but they've never talked down to Danny. They never treat him like a child. He's very intelligent.
00:33:30
Speaker
And I think that kind of plays into the the nurturing that he gets from Jack and Wendy and why he's so confident. And you don't get any of that in the movie.
00:33:42
Speaker
No. In fact, they yeah they very much treat him like a child in the movie. Whereas in the book, they talk about not talking down to him, about involving him in decisions and conversations and explaining things to him. And in the movie, it's very much a you know, don't wake up your daddy, get out of the way kind of thing. There's even a point like he's scared to go talk to his dad and like sits like on his lap and like he's very afraid to talk to him. And like that, I mean, that could honestly, I mean, I don't know if they're actually wanting the kid to act that way to reflect that. Right. the kid's just like,
00:34:21
Speaker
doing his thing, you know what I mean? Like, just going about his day as a child actor. Right. But I feel like they...
00:34:33
Speaker
just like completely missed the mark on it to where he just... I don't know. I just felt like he was just so much more complex in the book.
00:34:46
Speaker
like Just so much more complex. It just had a lot more personality. And it could have been... His character could have been a lot more thought out in the movie, just in general. Yeah. So going back to Dick Halloran...
00:35:03
Speaker
big difference between book and movie there too oh yeah ah yeah wait so he's the one that can relate the most to danny they both have the shining and danny is actually supposed to be more powerful than then Than Halloran is.
00:35:27
Speaker
And you don't get that. Like Crystal was saying. he's He's almost afraid to talk to Halloran. About the Shining. Don't like that.
00:35:37
Speaker
I liked their bonding. And the fact that they still had Danny reach out to him for help in the movie, it just didn't feel right because they didn't have that bond. Right.
00:35:49
Speaker
Mm-hmm. They definitely connected in the book. Mm-hmm. And you see, and again, this goes back to Stephen King's writing, how we go through... We've we've learned about Dick and his his mom or his grandmother and where he lives and the few times that he's had these experiences and these premonitions or visions.
00:36:13
Speaker
and And so we become invested in him. And he it it shows us how important it is to him that he tried to nurture Danny a little bit, that he makes sure that Danny is safe because he didn't necessarily he had his grandmother did that for him.
00:36:30
Speaker
You know, he wanted to make sure that Danny got a little bit of guidance, too, that he felt this connection to Danny. And so when Danny does call out for him, Dick doesn't hesitate. You know what i mean? Yeah.
00:36:42
Speaker
Whereas, and so we know why and we kind of feel that and we expect that of him in the book. In the movie, it was just like, why does this guy even care? Right. You know? i mean, and then he shows up and he immediately dies.
00:36:57
Speaker
Yeah. Which, that doesn't happen in the book. No. No. No. no He definitely does not die. yeah which I was like, why did they do this? like i I hated it. I hated it so much.
00:37:13
Speaker
I think it just it's part of that that tension building in the end is we still have to feel like it could fail. We still have to feel like they might not get out.
00:37:24
Speaker
And so we got to the end and it couldn't be as easy as him just coming in and being like, okay, come on, get in the snowcat, let's go. you know we had to see...
00:37:37
Speaker
we had to see like more, you know, contention, more like, what's the word? i with Conflict more, you know, adversity to, to overcome for them to get out. Yeah. Yeah. We'll, we'll definitely get more into the ending here in a minute. I want to, there's, there's another scene that I want to talk about that kind of leads into the scene with Halloran. So,
00:38:02
Speaker
when Wendy finds Jack's manuscript and she's reading through it. And there's the shot in the movie where she's reading through the manuscript and you almost expect Jack to just pop up behind her. You almost expect it to be a pop-up scare, but it's, it's more of a, you know, you get the wide shot of Wendy looking and then Jack enters and,
00:38:26
Speaker
You're expecting a pop-up scare. You don't get it, so you're still on edge. And then you get that pop-up scare when Halloran enters the hotel. Because as soon as he comes in you get the shot of him, and boom, Jack's there.
00:38:41
Speaker
ah ha So I feel like they only put that death in there just to have that pop-up scare. That one out of nowhere. Because you just earlier you didn't have it. So you're like oh it's not going to happen. And then boom. There is a lot of building tension.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah. They leave like build it and pull that cord. And finally I guess. Cut it through Dick's gut. One swing. I want to talk about another scene. That really bothered me. Okay.
00:39:15
Speaker
The scene in the movie. where they had this woman ah fully naked. 237. Yes, 237. need to do this?
00:39:26
Speaker
yes yeah thirty seven i was like did we need to do this I don't think we needed to do this. This is not in, that was not in the book.
00:39:36
Speaker
No. He went there. like that, no. Not like that. It was just a lady in the bathtub and she was scary. Well, also, Jack never saw her because Jack doesn't have the shining.
00:39:49
Speaker
Right. That was the whole point. okay And yeah, it was just like the curtain like closes really fast. I remember he knows that scared me. Yeah. It like she he's just in the bathroom and it closes really fast. And he's like, what the heck?
00:40:04
Speaker
Can we talk a bit about. okay so, yes, that's that particular scene in the film really didn't need to be there. But I feel like that was one of the few moments in the movie that felt more Stephen King to me.
00:40:20
Speaker
Because there is so much random stuff in this book of someone just gently caressing a woman's breast. or you know, like last ah yeah, like a nipple slowly, you know, ah oh coming out from under the shirt. And now both breasts are exposed. And it's just casually mentioned, like, yeah.
00:40:45
Speaker
Like it's just an everyday thing that women wander around with their tits hanging out. And don't get me wrong. If you want to do that, that's on you. But we don't do that in the lounge at the hotel.
Book's Climax and Jack's Redemption
00:40:56
Speaker
you know? Yeah. And then at one point in the book, and I have to mention this because it killed me. Jack is scared. is This is kind of early on in in the book.
00:41:08
Speaker
And they're at the hotel and Jack is just now start. I think this is in the tope the first topiary scene where he thinks that they're coming up on him or he thinks that something kind of he gets that like tingle on the back of his neck kind of thing. Mm hmm.
00:41:24
Speaker
But at one point it's written that his testicles tighten. The skin on his testicles tighten and his his buttocks clenches. And I'm over here like... When was that ever something that we write to describe fear? And don't get me wrong. I feel like I knew exactly what it meant though. i i was going to say, I'm not a man. i don't necessarily know if that's what happens when you get scared, but I kind of feel like I kind of get it. I felt like I did.
00:41:55
Speaker
i think I just read something very similar in a Stephanie Plum book. Well, and that's what I was thinking. I was like, have i ever heard that have i ever heard a woman, but like a female author describing a woman and their genitalia in...
00:42:13
Speaker
in any sort of a feeling or example that didn't have necessarily to do with sex. Right. Because like, when was last time we read about, you know, a woman sitting down to an excellent meal and her labia tingles with excitement? Like that doesn't like we women authors don't write that shit.
00:42:32
Speaker
But also, maybe apparently Janet Yvonovich does. so I'm pretty sure she had Stephanie thinking, like, if I was a man right now, this would be happening. Okay, well. Honestly, that description was like, okay, I know what the fear is. I got it. This man is terrified. Yeah, this man is scared. I mean, but honestly, if those giant topiary critters were coming after me, my testicles would shrivel too, man. Yeah. like Right up inside there. I, that part actually was really scary. And you know what
00:43:08
Speaker
At first I was like mad. I was like, oh but this isn't even in the f freaking movie because they replaced it with this entire hedge maze. But I get like, okay, how are they going to do this with like, you know, the graphics and everything like that. They're in the miniseries, the two-parter or whatever that is. Yeah. From 97 or whatever that was.
00:43:28
Speaker
Yeah. you You get the topiary critters. So. Oh, I'm curious what that's going to look like. Creepy as shit. Yeah. Well, it was in the 90s. I don't know. It probably is the worst CGI ever. Yeah. curious.
00:43:40
Speaker
I'm getting Wrinkle in Time flashbacks. Oh my god. Not the flying cabbage monsters. No! Okay. who Well, speaking of the maze, we have two totally different endings.
00:43:58
Speaker
Oh my god. um I really liked the ending in the book. Yeah. And the ending in the book goes for redemption. Mm-hmm.
00:44:12
Speaker
In the end, Jack is still there enough to want to save Danny. And and before we even get that far, I want to mention the part where...
00:44:23
Speaker
Wendy stabs him in the back and he falls and she's trying to make it up the stairs. And she, or she hears Jack get up behind her and he says something like you killed me or something. And I was like, Oh, this isn't Jack. Yeah.
00:44:39
Speaker
That part was awesome. Yeah. Honestly. Oh yeah. No, that last section of the book, when we start that from that moment on,
00:44:50
Speaker
I couldn't put it down. I had to just go you know, because a shit is hitting the fan. yeah it reminded me of like no exit when you think that they're about to get out, but then they don't. And then you think they're about to get out and they can't. And then they think like, yeah, it was just one thing after another. Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:09
Speaker
Yeah, honestly, even whenever I was watching the movie, that part, whenever you know she's screaming at him and they're like going up the steps, that kind of freaked me out a little bit too. I'm not going to lie.
00:45:25
Speaker
I didn't like that at all. I hated Shelley Duvall with the bat just being like, eh. Yeah, I'm like, can you hit him? Can you hit him? Swing or don't swing. yeah That's it. Yeah. like There's no... like We're just...
00:45:37
Speaker
listening to this man's dialogue for eight minutes swing on his head. For real. Like, there we don't got time for this.
00:45:49
Speaker
Like, this we ain't got no time. then he's like, here's Johnny, no. I'm like stab him in the face while he's doing his whole thing.
00:45:59
Speaker
What are we waiting on? and then they they lock him in the in the pantry or whatever, and I'm like... And then they just go go about their lives in their little apartment, their quarters or whatever.
00:46:11
Speaker
and you know, they can hear him yelling or screaming or whatever. You know. and at this point in the book, Wendy knows the hotel is the problem. Yeah. Well, it's coming to life enough that even she's experiencing it. and Exactly. They say all mothers have a little bit of shining. So I'm sure she had some kind of sense beforehand. Yeah.
00:46:33
Speaker
But it's it's ramping up. it is It's ramping up. It is physically changing things. It's causing the elevator to come up and down as different things are moving or whatever. So she knows the hotel is out to get her.
00:46:48
Speaker
And that she trusted the pantry enough. But the pantry is part of the hotel, bitch. Come on. Yeah. We got to What you think was going to happen? Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:00
Speaker
Yeah. You know? No. The minute I had his ass locked up, i i'm I'm running on on time here. We gotta go. Yeah. We're not gonna go to bed and tuck in and make a plan. No. The plan is set. We're out. yeah Also, who's sleeping? Right? Who's sleeping during this time? Absolutely not. A part that really, before we get into the ending, I have to say, a part that really scared me was Danny in the book walking out into the hallway and the man dressed as a dog in hallway that actually terrified yeah uh-uh that was a no thank you for me that scared me bad that was a no thank you i think it's funny that so many people because in the movie they just show a two second clip
00:47:49
Speaker
Of a in a costume. Apparently it's also a bear costume. It's not even a dog costume. Yeah. And I'm like, I know exactly what that, what's going on here based on the book. And the fact that everyone, if you haven't read it, I see so many people as I was like doing research, everyone's like, we still don't understand what this means. And i'm like, read the damn book. Oh no. Like, why did they put this in here? Yeah.
00:48:20
Speaker
With no context clues, no nothing, no backstory. Yeah. no there And so I mean, I guess, like, should a movie be able to stand alone without the book?
00:48:31
Speaker
You know, I think so. Yeah, absolutely. But also, i can understand why maybe he thought he was making the movie as a companion piece to the but I don't know.
00:48:41
Speaker
That... Yeah. I mean, don't even know if he was that. Because that dog did just come out of nowhere in the movie. Yeah. Where did he come from? is he even here? There's no mention of the masquerade ball or anything. And so suddenly there's someone in a costume and you're like, what the hell?
00:49:01
Speaker
Okay. Sorry. So where King went with redemption for Jack... Kubrick went with ambiguity for the movie. So even with the the costume, the bear costume, you don't know what he's doing. You know why he's there.
00:49:19
Speaker
written Yeah. Leave it up for interpretation. Yeah. i The ending of... The book I loved so much. Yeah.
Critique of Movie's Ending
00:49:30
Speaker
The ending of the book was so good. I like what Danny did for, you know, his family basically. And there's this part I keep thinking about when Danny's like, we got to go, we got to get out of here, you know, like because the whole hotel is going to like blow up.
00:49:49
Speaker
o And, you know, Wendy is like struggling. i just lost the other guy's name. ah Yeah, Halloran, he's struggling, but he's like, we got to go because this whole place is going to go up in flames. He like sends the image to Halloran. Yeah. And then they hear the elevator shooting down and they hear like an entity in the elevator like screeching because they have to go. entity is like going to the boiler room to stop it from like blowing up.
00:50:19
Speaker
But like it's Jack, but it's like not Jack. It's like a thing in there. hmm. Like, that part is just, like, so spooky to me. I don't know why. So the part where they're on the third floor, it's Danny and Jack.
00:50:32
Speaker
Danny has broken through this entity enough to get Jack out. Mm-hmm. But there's also, so he's got the mallet, which it's not an axe. I just want to throw that out there. Not an axe and in the book.
00:50:45
Speaker
No. So he has this mallet and he destroys his own face to remove the mask of Jack. I like that. That was cool. yeah Of course you do, Lindsay.
00:50:59
Speaker
No, it was so symbolic, honestly. It was really epic. Yeah. epic Well, I'm also just imagining now he's got the the bloody face. I'm imagining he has no nose at this point. It's terrifying.
00:51:13
Speaker
Danny gets Jack to come back and he's like, hey, you forgot to check the boiler. You should probably go do that. And then I imagine him like freaking out. And I imagine him running off to do his thing.
00:51:27
Speaker
And then we cut to his perspective in the boiler room. And he's, you know, twisting the wheel. He's burning himself. He's ignoring that. And he actually celebrates and he cheers. And he's like, I did it. I won. And then the line is like, and then the boiler exploded. Yeah.
00:51:46
Speaker
And I actually kind of laughed at that that part because that was just really funny to imagine. It was. And like I do love, too, how Stephen King, as he's talking about this entity in the basement, this Jack, not Jack,
00:52:00
Speaker
He at one point even calls him the caretaker manager because remember, like the hotel manager is the entity that we don't see. And so now it's almost like Stephen King's acknowledging they are one now. Jack has been brought into this fold. So now we have the caretaker manager. He also calls him it.
00:52:21
Speaker
Yeah, because it. But then I don't understand why in the end of the field in the end of the movie Kubrick has like goes to the the picture and we see Jack at the front of the the photo of July 4th, I think it was 1921 or whatever. I thought it was 27. Something like that. And Jack is in the photo.
00:52:47
Speaker
He's just now part of the hotel. But part of the hotel's past. That's the ambiguity. Well, and then like that Grady guy was all like, I've always been here. Just like you will always be here or whatever. Like I, it was very weird.
00:53:06
Speaker
the and then at one point, even in the book, I think maybe it was the book, maybe it was the movie. I can't remember where he talks about like, there is no time or all time is the same time or something like that.
00:53:17
Speaker
It was very weird. And I thought that's an odd thing to throw in out of freaking nowhere. Now I'm going to think on that for the next 10 days. It's fine. Don't worry. Yeah. my Not my time travel brain going like, wait a minute.
00:53:32
Speaker
Yeah. i hated the movie ending. Yeah. I did not like that movie ending. Honestly, when it ended of him being frozen in the maze, like Danny is like running after him in the maze, or he's running after Danny in the maze.
00:53:49
Speaker
And then eventually he's just sitting there, I guess, frozen overnight. Because like Danny meets up with Wendy and they get out of there. i was like, what the heck is this?
Conclusion: Book vs. Movie Preference
00:54:03
Speaker
You guys, what is this? Danny and Wendy just... Drive away on the snowcat. yep Leave poor Dick's body just bleeding out there in the lobby.
00:54:15
Speaker
and know. I like how the book ended because we don't there is a sequel, right? There's also a prequel. Is there really? Mm-hmm. I didn't know that. The sequel is Dr. Sleep, right?
00:54:28
Speaker
Yes. And the adaptation is by Mike Flanagan. Yes. Who we really like. Yes.
00:54:38
Speaker
So that's interesting. Yep. I actually really want to cover that one. Stephen King actually stated after seeing Dr. Sleep, he now appreciates Kubrick's film a little more.
00:54:54
Speaker
Ooh. So that's interesting. Yeah. I think it's worth checking. Yeah. Well, honestly, something that really like upsets me about the movie as well as the fact of Shelley Duvall, how she was treated. Yeah.
00:55:13
Speaker
During the filming process, I think is really sad.
00:55:18
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's crazy. I watched like this whole like behind the scenes ah making of The Shining. Mm-hmm. And how Kubrick, I think he was just like just treating her really terribly and like the stress of the film was make it like she would be like passing out on set like her hair was like falling out. Mm-hmm.
00:55:43
Speaker
He wanted to keep her on edge to match the character, basically. yeah There are rumors that he would call Stephen King at like two, three o'clock in the morning and ask them if he believed in God or some crazy nonsense. He denied it, but, you know, there were rumors.
00:56:01
Speaker
Yeah, I did. say I think I read about that. my It's crazy. Yeah. Well, i I think it'll be pretty easy to figure it out, but ah what's our final verdict?
00:56:15
Speaker
Book. Hmm. Definitely going book. Book. Book. Absolutely. Book. For sure. Well, that's going to bring us to our question of the episode. We discussed it a little bit throughout.
00:56:31
Speaker
But in horror stories, creators often choose between two emotional endings. Redemption, meaning a character who has done terrible things gets a moment of clarity, sacrifice, or humanity before the end. Or ambiguity, which leaves things unresolved or unsettling.
00:56:51
Speaker
Do you guys prefer redemption or ambiguity in your horror? Let's go with Crystal. Honestly, i i don't necessarily need redemption, but I hate ambiguity. i need i need I need something to wrap it up. I need everything to tie together so that I know enough of the ending to be able to sleep at night.
00:57:15
Speaker
That's all. i don't I don't really care if anybody gets redeemed or or has their moment of clarity. I don't care about them. They can still die so long as I know that everything is tied in a bow and there are no bad guys at the end of the story.
00:57:31
Speaker
That's fair. What about you, Carrie? I don't know. I think it depends, honestly. i i have enjoyed both.
00:57:44
Speaker
I guess it depends on, like, the structure of the story and, you know, the characters and things like that. I've definitely read stories where, like, the ending is like, wait, what the hell just happened?
00:57:56
Speaker
And, like, I have to, like, deal with the fact that it's so open-ended. Leave the world behind. Yeah. Like something like that. I don't hate those type of endings. I probably prefer something like being wrapped up over that, but I like an ending that makes me think a little bit too, where i have to like kind of decide how they would end or it's like up for debate maybe.
00:58:23
Speaker
yeah Um, I agree though. I think it depends on the story itself and the characters specifically with the shining. I think the book is more emotionally devastating because redemption is possible, but it's also still not enough to undo the damage. Right. Yeah.
00:58:47
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's shot. The shining is a good example because honestly, I, Like, i cried at the end of The Shining during, like, I think it was, like, during the epilogue because of how emotionally, and like, devastated Dani was. Yeah. i got emotional over that.
00:59:07
Speaker
And like you said, I think that has sometimes a bigger impact. Yeah. All right. For Well, before we check out of the Overlook, we want to give a huge thank you to Hannah from Horror Hour at the Hannah's for submitting The Shining for our listener submission theme, because this was literally the perfect pick for us. And we loved the, like, getting lost in the book and the story and experiencing the movie.
00:59:38
Speaker
Yep. But we still want to hear from you guys. So head down to the comments, answer our question of the episode. Let us know where you land. Tell us your thoughts. Submit some new recs for us because we're growing the list back. And if you're ready to experience the story again or for the very first time, you can grab The Shining on Libro.fm using our affiliate link in the show notes. It's a great way to support independent bookstores and us while you listen.
01:00:08
Speaker
And don't forget us on social media. We've got clips, polls, behind the scenes posts, all sorts of things related to our episodes. That's all, folks. We'll see you in the next chapter of Face It On A Book.
01:00:19
Speaker
Bye. Bye. Bye.