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Paul Luikart
656 Plays4 months ago
Paul Luikart is the author of the short story collections Animal Heart (Hyperborea Publishing, 2016), Brief Instructions (Ghostbird Press, 2017), Metropolia (Ghostbird Press, 2021), The Museum of Heartache (Pski’s Porch Publishing, 2021), the 11th installment of Belle Point Press' Prose Series, and The Realm of the Dog (J. New Books, 2024.) He serves as an adjunct professor of fiction writing at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia. He and his family live in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
You are listening to something rather than nothing. Creator and host, Ken Volante. Editor and producer, Peter Bauer.
00:00:18
Speaker
Hey, everybody, listeners. Very happy to have you here on the Something Rather Than Nothing podcast with Paul Lucard. Paul, before I tell the folks a little bit more about you, just wanted to formally welcome you on the show. Thank you. It is awesome to be here. I'm super excited. So thanks for having me. Yeah. Yeah. Folks, Paul writes a ah good amount of um short stories. And prior to us getting on to the show, I was mentioning to him how I really enjoyed getting back into the short story genre. And um because I've been out of that habit, a little bit more long novels and such for quite some time.
00:01:01
Speaker
um And you have ah collections of your stories, Animal Heart, ah Metropolis, and a newer one, The Realm of the Dog. And I just want to jump like right into that because thats that that's new. Tell us about The the Realm of the the Dog and its publication and what's going on with that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, The Realm of the Dogs, my newest collection, full-length short story collection. And it's a mix i think it's a mix of ah some maybe more standard length short stories, but a good amount of flash fiction as well.
00:01:33
Speaker
um and Flash fiction appeals just because yeah, I know on the one hand like, you know life is life So it's difficult to sit down For any any length of time to pound out like a novel at least called not to jump in give us a definition of flash fiction Tell us a little bit about what that means. Yeah, so I think flash fiction um I would find it as about thousand words 1500 words at most so page and a half maybe um But there I mean, there's smaller than that even. um And I think it's it does the complete work of us of a short story. So, you know, there's some there's there's some characters, there's some action that happens, and at the end of the piece of flash fiction, there's ah there's a change that the characters can't reset or go back from.
00:02:24
Speaker
um or the reader. Sometimes the change doesn't happen for the characters, but the reader may have a revelation that they can't sort of un run understand, which is, I think, the work of the short story, and then it's all compressed in ah in a piece of flash fiction like that. Yeah, i thanks. And thanks for that. And in so in in within the new bond, there's some effect, you know, yes, and allow you to continue. I just want to make sure I had that down. Yeah, that's other people might say different things. But it's working definition. That's your your guide at this moment, the realm of the dog. Tell us more.
00:02:59
Speaker
Yeah, so it's a collection of short stories, ah probably has probably started writing ah probably started writing it during the height of the pandemic. So I think there's some bleakness in there for sure. I mean, themes of, yeah, just sort of wondering what is the worth of humanity and and um real uplifting stuff like that. ah So but but I think too that it's a it's at least for me writing it as a bit of a search for some of that in the midst of You know this global pandemic and and the some of the responses that were not very good to it Uh, yeah, so so i I think for me it was an exercise in looking for like what what is like worth?
00:03:45
Speaker
What do we take out of this? What do we take out of this? What can we glean from because of the dark landscape or at least a challenging landscape to be diplomatic about that? That's right. I appreciate that. Yeah, very challenging for sure. And yeah, so like, how do we think about it? And what are we situated in history as we kind of move along? So it was a little bit of that for me, I think, in writing it. Well, you you you work with themes of of of faith ah in in in in in in your writing. So within the realm of that, can you talk a little bit more about the challenges to like, what is this all about? You know, kind of like what we talk about, ah some of the philosophical questions for you. Yeah, I mean, I think
00:04:37
Speaker
ah I think the idea of faith, and i don't when I say I don't even necessarily just mean like a Christian faith, but ah but a sense perhaps of you know, some greater, is there like, in is that go through my day? And is there right characters who are going through bleak things? Should there be a reason for those folks to continue or for me to continue, I suppose. yeah um And some some days the answer is yeah, absolutely. And other days the answer is like, I don't i don't think so.
00:05:10
Speaker
um And so I wanted to but portray those aspects in the in the collection. so So some folks may come to the conclusion that like, no, like this is really kind of not, like this life is kind of not worth it. And then for other folks to so find like, yeah, you know, like other other people might conclude that that despite the darkness, there is the an idea of redemption available. um And that it is worth it to to keep looking for that.
00:05:41
Speaker
um So yeah, so I think in this collection and dealing with those themes, I wanted the breadth of what it might mean to understand redemption. I don't even necessarily mean that word. It sounds a little too religious. But but we need have brain part no, I mean, the redemption. No, I know what you're saying. I mean, it feels that way. But I think I think i can hear it in you the larger sense of ah of redemption and not necessarily like like tied to that. So it has that.
00:06:18
Speaker
All right, so we're talking about this, right? And talking some about some ah bigger things. I wanted to ask you so much, we're doing art and philosophy here. And like and I just want to make one comment about what you just said. I mean, philosophy, you know, in dealing with ah the meaning of, you know, asking that like difficult question, right? The existential question in in the true nature of the sense of Boy, this is difficult. yeah What are we moving towards in you know ah weighing that? and But let's jump over into ah what is what is art? You're a creator. You spend a lot of your time ah teaching um and in and ah in writing in in your craft and in living. What ah what ah what is art and what's creation that you're doing?
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a really super good question. um ah So top down, I mean, I would say art is essential. um and I think it's what makes us different from like rocks and trees and stuff. um so ah So whether you're a person who so consumes a lot of art or makes art, it's inherent and intrinsic, I think, to the human experience, just being human. um I think art is supposed to be a uniter. um I think it's supposed to be more permanent than ideas ah like politics or you know religious ideas, some religious ideas, I guess. I think it's supposed to be more permanent than that, yeah um than those things. I think it's not necessarily, i you know like Tolstoy has this essay called, What is Art?
00:08:04
Speaker
And he answers the question essentially by saying it's something that brings us all together. um and And that's, ah you know, there's something too that I think, but he also points out that it's not, you know, like I think our experience of art now has become pretty elite. So so there are certain people that can experience high art and other people who who is just not available to them. And and that's not really what art is. art Art should be a transcendent experience of perhaps beauty. Doesn't have to be beauty. I think there could be a transcendent experience of ugliness or the mundane.
00:08:39
Speaker
but ah but it should be available to everybody equally. And so so that's man, it's such a piss-poor definition of art. Oh, no, no, no. Back away from that. No, I i i mean, it's it's it's a way again at it. And it's it's really helpful. I mean, I got excited when I heard you mention in Tolstoy there in that day yeah what is what is art. It was really curious, too. There's some, um you know, I ah read um not through one collection, but different pieces yeah yeah of your work. in
00:09:12
Speaker
ah After I had read some of them, in my mind, I felt, in in and I might be clumsy about this, but um ah there was, i've um I've studied a ton of Russian literature. Oh, okay yeah, yeah, absolutely. And and and and um at at the university level, so I've been blessed with that experience. That's awesome. There was something about the authenticity and what I would say the rawness of of some of your characters that it actually, move my brain to thinking about um Russian authors. Oh, okay. Excellent. and in and And it had to do with the kind of that bluntness that like in some of that, not to stereotype or just kind of give a general characterization, but there's a ah rawness to like a lot of the way human characters are depicted in the in the Russian tradition and not just, and and but in Tolstoy and Dostoevsky and not just ah the the biggies, but
00:10:06
Speaker
It feels like there's a wrestling with you know with more philosophical terms and things like that. Not to read into your is your life and your work, but is that part of um has that been part of your background or what about that dynamic of those characters, those people? Yeah. i i feel dry so i didn't i you know I studied creative writing and kind of on all levels. But in doing that, I mean, a lot of reading of the Russian greats. ah So I would say, especially that essay, What Does Art, is has always been important to me. um A little bit further back, ah the short stories of Gogo, ah especially the Overcoat,
00:10:47
Speaker
My favorite. Oh, it's so good. And and and I think i in in that, to your point, the rawness of the characters and the sort of the unforgiving or sort of uncompromising landscape of, so this is wintertime, it's brutal. um We have characters trying to go about their lives. There's there's the honesty and the reality of, um unfortunate stereotyping of like different classes. All of that comes together to create a very um authentically gained ah so authentically gained sense of tragedy. And I think that it's and it's not just a conclusion of like, man, this is so sad, what a sad world. It's an empathetic kind of tragedy, I think in Google.
00:11:39
Speaker
but But even i mean going on from him into like Chekhov and stuff as well, I think there's that that rawness and unapologetic nature that they present of the human condition with, it opens the question of empathy for the reader. and i i i Without being an expert in Russian lit, I think I find that in there, and I think that's really appealing. um ah you know there's a reality There's a hard, cold reality to human existence, but we are always offered the question of empathy.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I've been um and in the in the past. ah There's some kind of ah great studies where you see kind of existential existentialist philosophy at its height and connection him with the large themes in Russian literature. yeah And of course, the the the the big like philosophical themes get into the show that you find in, um you know, dust, you know, salvation, redemption. ah sin and all those complicated yes absolutely type of things. um So I had mentioned about the jumping back into um the short story, the short story as as as a forum. and yeah
00:12:55
Speaker
You know, in my own reading habits, one cool thing with the show is coming in contact with different type of authors, which means I come in contact with different type of forms and files. But ah ah short stories, we started the chat with that before we popped on about, you know, ah The short story in a lot of folks hopefully are familiar with you know short story format. Tell me talk about your relationship with it as a main way of how to present your characters and how you write.
00:13:26
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's probably started the way a lot of people's relationship with short stories start, which is like freshman freshman English in high school, and you have to read you know some of the, but but i mean I remember reading The Most Dangerous Game as as a short story form, and I was like, wow, this story is amazing. I had never read, and in I was literally a freshman in high school reading that for an assignment. And just that you could do so much in terms of drama, characterization, ah very much a traditional short story where there's like a rising action and a huge break in the middle or towards the end. So I, there's this, so that's always stuck with me. um And studying creative writing,
00:14:14
Speaker
you There's a lot of reading of short stories that you have to do, all the different sorts, Western, non-Western short stories and things. And then very practically, like now, you know, I have three young kids and life is pretty busy. so you know when i When I take my daughter to gymnastics, I sit in the lobby and I have a chance, I have a very short amount of time, relatively speaking, to write. um And so it affords itself very well to writing short stories. So I think the genre of the short story, there's a high purpose to it. I think you can really
00:14:53
Speaker
expose people quickly and deeply to deep, good themes and art, but but it's also very practical for my life right now. It fits in well. and like perpetually have a novel on the back burner. ah And that's where it is currently. But four stories are the way to go now. Well, the situation is you're forced to be practical. I mean, I talked to all type of creatives and I think anybody who thinks about creating struggles or or thinks about or has to grapple with the structure of how you do it and how you make it. You know, I make um like for myself when it comes to creativity,
00:15:30
Speaker
I yeah paint and I try to i try to write but ah the podcast is is the main thing. oh very much yeah You end up making decisions about like, I'm creative. and I'm thinking of all these areas. And the other thing is, too, I know you work as an adjunct professor. My day job is I represent um adjunct professors, part-timers, full-timers, at community college in Oregon. So that's awesome I love like, I mean, I feel it will probably talk again in the future, but right yeah like, maybe we probably just talk about like,
00:16:05
Speaker
you know, that type of stuff, but you know, because there's so much. there's like um But but I wanted to tell you just in thinking about short stories, I want to tell you um just the ah name of a Japanese writer, which I um I love these short stories more than almost anything in the universe. And to give you a little bit of background there, the name is ah Kenji Miyazawa. It's it's You'll see it listed as Miyazawa Kenji, and um ah beautiful, of almost like a Buddhist ah yeah fable um where your your characters are animated and animals talk in its like expansive fantasy world. but us
00:16:56
Speaker
just ah made me think about that because ah the power of of those of those short stories and um in the fable aspects of them are just... ah but Timeless, I would imagine. Yeah, and they don't... short stories when when you get... it's almost like when you get hit by that punch of a short story, it's like no punch because of the context of it. Absolutely. it's in It's nice because you can experience that punch just about anywhere. you could I lived in Chicago for a long time and you could yeah you're on the L and it's like, oh man, I just had this, here I am in my daily commute and I just was overwhelmed by this transcendent experience because I read this story and I had the time to do it on the train.
00:17:41
Speaker
um you know things like that so anyway i will look that up i will look him up i'll read that stuff that sounds yeah yeah um ah ah just just one of those things where you just encounter almost almost by accident um i want ask you i wanted to ask you about ah I want to ask the big question, ah why is there something rather than nothing? And before I let you answer it, yeah um there's a whole bunch of things that are popping around given the earlier part of our conversation. So I wanted to get the big one kind of out of the way. I'll just put it right here. Tell um tell me, ah Paul, ah why is there something rather than nothing? That's such a good question. ah I think um sort of the milieu of life is interesting. It's it's
00:18:32
Speaker
So yeah I think I could go out to say if I could personify life. If I could go out to life and say, look, life, I don't think you're much of anything. And life would probably say back to me, yeah, you're probably right. but no you You're onto something there. There's not much to this. and then And then it would leave room for me to say, are you kidding me? Or are you being sarcastic? Or like, are you serious? And then life would cleverly say, well, let's find out. And and then and then suddenly there's something. ah There's this conversation between life and I and this metaphor about whether there is something or not. But along the way, we say like, you know what? i There might be nothing, but there is this homeless man on the street and he's asking for some money right now. That's something.
00:19:24
Speaker
Or there's like a, you know, the Aurora Borealis down south last week, like there's, that's something, I can't tell you what it is, but there's enough there to grapple with. um And it may be that the grappling is the something, um it may not be, but certainly the the grappling with the something is rich enough to sustain a human lifespan. um And interesting enough to do that. I think as an artist and a writer That's such a joy. It's like oh, you're kidding me. Like I could I could spend the rest of my life making art about Questions that life brings up that sounds great. It's a bit of sounds awesome. It's a beautiful thing So, I don't know if that's I don't know ah yeah You you you you you got at it. Hey, um, it's a great question
00:20:20
Speaker
Thank you. ah very Very important. um ah You do work ah with the homeless and those ah who are in crisis, and and I read about that. ah ah tell us Tell us about that work and what what you do. you know what you do ah Yeah. yeah ah Right now, so I live in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and I work with the Chattanooga Housing Authority. um And so my my what I specifically do is I um review applications and provide case management for one of our housing programs for people who are in either like living on the streets or even living on the streets in a domestic violence situation. So we try to, through this program, try to get people placed ah into more appropriate housing and then you know have some surrounding case management type services. But I did that in Phoenix for a long time.
00:21:15
Speaker
I worked at a Catholic worker organization there, and then Chicago for a long time. um But always working in organizations that um yeah do do service in some way or another to people who are living outside or in some kind of crisis crisis situation. So it's been very, I mean, it's very life taking and life giving at the same time, ah which hopefully makes for a a kind of richness. but um Yeah, but's it's i I really love to do it um and it does make it. It dovetails nicely with also being a writer.
00:21:52
Speaker
Like it it's a very helpful right writing and working in a service position as they go well. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and thank you for that. And I wanted, I wanted to ask you, um, related to that, just a general question and and and and a genuine curiosity I have to help others as somebody is, is, is facing this type of situation. I know it's state by state and everything's different everywhere. What's one of the first steps if they're in this type of crisis that somebody could do just to, Find out what might be available for them in that. Yeah That's that's a really good question. I more and more most cities have like a centralized You know, like a like an information number. So in Chattanooga, that's two on one. Chicago was three one one um But but that's like a sort of a city resource line um but I would say too like for the individual
00:22:45
Speaker
If if a person is not already doing something like volunteering at a place that serves meals, ah domestic violence violence, like crisis center. I mean, I think I think just and and ah that comes with a lot of like I could never do that. A lot of people might say I could never I don't think I could do that. I don't think I could volunteer. And usually the people who say I don't think I could do it are the people who'd be perfect at it um yeah because because they come with that sense of like, i look, that's overwhelming for me. i and There's too much. um, I think a lot of times people say i'm there not every time but but there's often a Sort of an attitude i'm going to fix you and when your fix doesn't work Then they they become sort of a there's often a sort of a sense of judgment That's not helpful. It puts a distance between the person lives in homelessness and the other person. So anyway, uh, I think
00:23:40
Speaker
you know being willing to just volunteer once a month, once a week is huge. I mean, I think it's a huge deal for the people who you serve, but also for you, for your own soul and your own mind that does something for you, makes you a better human, I think. thank no ah ah Thank you. I am in Portland, Oregon, a bit north of me, and you know, with homeless. Yeah. The myriad, the myriad of issues that are associated with. But ah one good thing is always in the news as far as that goes.
00:24:13
Speaker
It is and is, and it's a significant um ah social and personal, a so social issue. yeah um and But you know there's a ah publication, the street routes that are sold, our copy. and yes I tell you, I always you know i always ah get one. It's a great way, at least. Good. That's awesome. It might be available to to give, but you can give more than a dollar, but you know give a fuck for the... And um you know some good ah reporting about the issues. And one of the things that I i noticed in the recent issue, we recently had ah ah just general elections. you know A lot of places did in the in the spring just recently when we're recording. yeah
00:24:58
Speaker
And a lot of candidates that they had sent their questionnaire for politics didn't even respond. And it pissed me off. Oh, for sure. I think that's... Pissed me off. And it was both parties and all that. I'm just saying, I'm not getting into politics here. I'm saying, I was reading that and I see all these dinner returners. what Screw that you're running for office. I don't care who you are if you didn't respond to street routes. I'm sure sent you a professional Yes, you know a questionnaire like everybody else got that you don't even respond to those issues Anyways, it pissed me off. So thanks for listening. Oh my god. I appreciate that. I think there's a way I mean like you know, I like
00:25:40
Speaker
It's a homelessness obviously is this complicated issue that that there's so many aspects to it. But I mean, an easy one is dignity, right? So what can I do to afford the other person dignity? And certainly a response, even if the response is, hey, look, I don't have time. ah It's a humanizing response. um Might not be the right, you know, you might want to say, well, I wish you would have had the time, but and right it's it's there's this idea of like, I'm acknowledging your personhood ah by responding. And I think not responding to your point, it pisses me off too. I hate to hear that.
00:26:15
Speaker
Yeah, all right. So we get the street roots more on the positive, ah you know, ah ah publication and in like I said, in Portland, Oregon, i' just kind of thinking of different ideas yeah in places and recognizing the work that you do and really appreciate that. Hey, im Paul, um tell us a little bit about ah about teaching and its its its relation to Yeah, a lot of work. I i know that. i Well, yeah, you know, for sure. For example, just on the point of how um maybe the the teaching process, how you develop your craft, what you learn, you know, yeah your experience of, you know, writing, teaching and the other advocacy work that you do. Tell us about the teaching.
00:27:03
Speaker
I think I'm going to say this up top and it's going to sound really like corn dog, but I do not mean it. I mean it. I do not mean a corn dog. I mean, it's serious. It is such a privilege to be able to do that. And I'm like, I'm just an adjunct. um and But even in that limited experience, it to teach the students that I've had the privilege to teach is just humbling. um i find They are so fascinating, the things they think about, the things they love to read, the stories that they produce. It is such a privilege and a joy to to be there and and to
00:27:40
Speaker
I think the the way I have to, I didn't come up as a teacher, so I don't have like, you know, I can't point to different rubrics or, you know, things like that. But when I think i can i <unk>ve and I've been in the realm that you are, nor can I. Well, that's hard thing to hear because sometimes, you know, and I'm sure you could attest to this, you stand up there in front of students and and sometimes you're like, what am I, what am I doing here? I think the universe is sleeping. But I think, from ah I've had to show myself or or tell myself that me in the role of teaching is, I'm on a certain continuum. So I teach writers who are currently college students and I'm i'm a little bit further along the path.
00:28:27
Speaker
um But there there are people who are further along than me, ah who I look up to and who teach me. um And so we're we're moving along the same continuum. so So that helps me think about it. I think of myself in that way, sort of as a path person, like I'm just a little bit further on, so but let's come on, um feeling the pull of the people who have gone before me, pulling me on. So there's a continuum or sort of perhaps a unity in that, that helps me not feel like a teacher. because
00:28:59
Speaker
Yeah. Well, one thing I want to say, mild, mild scold, only my my training is I heard you say just just an adjunct. It's never just I work with a lot of folks and do a different type. Thank you. Never, never just. ah and And seriously, you know, one of the things ah talking about the excitement of teaching, I want to tell you a quick story that's lost in teaching. um So I was studying at the University of Massachusetts, oh yeah ah labor studies. I was finishing my second master's. I had done a master's in philosophy at Marquette University.
00:29:37
Speaker
all right and Yeah, and um after that I decided to actually kind of like really jump more into the world for sure, um you know labor unions and such. But oh yeah this opportunity happened, it was very strange. um ah So I had to add um ah ah majored in ah philosophy in English as an undergraduate and I had a very strong connection to a small philosophy department at the University of Rhode Island. I was checking in, in August of 2000. So now I'm studying labor studies. I'm far away from philosophy. I'm moving further away from philosophy at this point. And I just gave a call. I was trying to check in with my old professors, you know, what do I do in life? Philosophy professor. yeah yeah And I'm talking to the department chairs, somebody I've known and taught me. And she's like, Hey, Ken, we just had somebody
00:30:33
Speaker
who bailed on us in this class. I got two sections of social philosophy, and I'm talking on a phone right now. I want you to take this like now, and it's like mid-August. Yeah, yeah. Three weeks later, and I say- It starts tomorrow. I checked into who I needed to, and I'm like, I'm you know kind of very trepidatious because I'm like, um I'm doing something different. I mean, it is possible what I'm agreeing to of putting together this course in three weeks. It was the time I was able to teach i taught two sections of social philosophy, which was a dream of mine because I was going in a different direction into labor. So I viewed it as one of the most beautiful things to to have happened because even when I did it, I knew that I was moving in a different direction, that I was not
00:31:25
Speaker
moving in this direction. But I was able to do it with almost like a freedom and an aplomb or something. Yeah. Oh, man. Absolutely. I love to hear that. That's awesome. ah That's it. Thanks for the feels. Very hardening to hear that. very Thanks for for indulging me. Hey, so we don't miss the details here in, um um you know, ah finishing up our time. I've been loving talking you like you. Tell us where to find uh, your stuff find you tell us uh, paul lukard Where to go? Yeah, for sure. So as far as the book so the the book the realm of the dog is uh, It's being published by j new books. Um, and so j new books.com j n e w b ooks.com Uh, and there's there's a number of
00:32:21
Speaker
no Other excellent books of fiction and philosophy coming out from J new this year I'm very happy to be part of part of the What's coming this year from J new? You what I'm probably most active on my sub stack so Paul Lucard dot sub stack great clap great prep. I like that a lot. Yeah, it's it's I it's You know as ah as a writer I love to write and so whether it's a short story or a dumb little
00:32:52
Speaker
recollection of He-Man toy for my childhood. It's- That's important, but keep going. Yeah, it all goes on the sub stack. So there would be for sure my sub stack would be the best place to hear about stuff I'm doing. Cause I was, you know, post different publications and things there. um And yeah, I would direct anybody who was interested to my sub stack. I love it. thanks for do yeah Yeah, absolutely. i am I have the sense that there's a lot of different directions our ah kind of a conversation could expand into. I agree. i agree ah We could talk about that after, but I wanted to you know to to thank you for some of the you know ah thing you know reasons I had mentioned about ah coming in contact um with with your writing, which um
00:33:45
Speaker
I don't again, i I allow myself to be clumsy almost publicly, but like I am your writing felt like new and it was that or like when I was talking about that human um
00:34:00
Speaker
It had this like deep honesty and like I was connecting it back to Russian literature. It's just like, I'm seeing the person and it's raw. It might be janky in spots and the conversation is tilted and it goes the wrong way and then it goes the right way. But I'm getting it. It's being delivered to me. And I don't know what all that means in more professorial terms. but Yeah, I wonder too. Yeah, that's right. I appreciate that. I appreciate that a lot. Thank you. All right, Paul, a great pleasure talking with you and too thank writing in and and in you know working with the folks and the people. I'll do i'll do likewise. And I hope we get a chance to continue some of our larger subtopics in this discussion. and I would love it. It would be awesome. All right. brother. Paul Lookguard, everybody. This is something rather than nothing. Signing off, have a great day. Thank you.
00:35:04
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and
00:35:07
Speaker
This is something rather than nothing.
00:35:17
Speaker
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00:36:06
Speaker
And the best way to help the show is to tell your friends about us. If you love it, they'll love it too. Tell your friends who love it. We love you. This is something rather than nothing podcast.