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Episode 421: Cole Heilborn says, “We’re Gonna Find What We Find”
541 Plays4 months ago
Cole Heilborn (@portsideproductions) is a filmmaker and found of Port Side Productions, a film company focusing on outdoor storytelling. His film, Inches to Miles, made in partnership with Athletic Brewing, follows three remarkable people as they train up to and compete in the Lake Placid Ironman.
Newsletter: Rage Against the Algorithm
Show notes: brendanomeara.com
Support: Patreon.com/cnfpod
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Support
00:00:00
Speaker
AC and Ever's the show, as you know, it takes a lot of time and part of what helps keep the lights on overhead is if you consider hiring me to edit or coach up your work. A generous editor helps you see what you can't see. It could be a pitch, a proposal, an essay, hell, even a book. If you need help cracking the code, I know I need help cracking the code. Email me at creativenonfictionpodcastatgmail.com and we will start a dialogue. The storytelling and the creative process is messy. And I kind of envision it like if you're climbing a mountain and you're roped up with like a rope team climbing a glacier for safety, like your your rope team is, there's individual people on that line, but everyone has to work together to like make it to the summit.
00:00:54
Speaker
Oh my god, does talking ever make you want to yawn? And now I've got that feeling in the middle of my chest where I i can't get the yawn out? Hold on a second.
Handling Feedback and Personal Challenges
00:01:05
Speaker
Oh man, I think I did it. Okay. Hey, it's your, uh, you know, CNF and spin instructor, Brendan O'Mara. And this is the creative nonfiction podcast, the show where I speak to groovy he, him, she, hers, and they, them about telling true stories right off the top. You know, I like to read reviews when they come in. We haven't had one in a while, but we got a new one, brand new one. And here, here's a curve ball. Three stars, the very first three star written review. Let's go from.
00:01:34
Speaker
Please talk better. Yucky intros. The host sounds like a cheesy, shock-jock, high-energy d-bag. I have noticed that this is mainly in the show intros, so if I like the featured person, I will give it a try. Thank you very much. Please talk better. High-energy d-bag. I am a very low-energy d-bag. Glad you're aboard, friend, as I tell many people I'm an acquired taste. I might grow on you. And you know what? I'm pretty stoked about this review, man. I owe you a coaching session of up to 2,000 words, and that goes for anyone who leaves a written review and sends me a screenshot of it. So just email me at creativenonfictionpodcastatgmail.com. Please talk better. And we'll start a dialogue, friend. This review illustrates a point I wanna make, and I'll do that in the parting shot, okay? If I had fart sounds, I could really lean into the shock jocke-ness of it all. Moving on.
00:02:35
Speaker
We have Cole Heilborn on the show today, CNF'R's Cole. is the founder of Portside Productions, a marketing film company focusing largely on the outdoors and storytelling centering on the outdoors. He teamed up with my pals at Athletic Brewing to produce an incredible documentary ah called Inches to Miles, and it's on YouTube. Links will be in the show notes. And this spotlights three athletic brewing ambassadors and their incredible stories as they train up to and compete in the Lake Placid Ironman Triathlon.
00:03:09
Speaker
The LP Ironman takes place this weekend, you weekend of July 19th, 20th, right in there. So the timing is apropos. And the sidebar, back in 2003, when I was 23, had just turned 23, I competed, if you can call it that, in the Lake Placid Ironman with my best friend Pete. Our goal was to do the race without training, which we by and large did. ah We worked at a restaurant over the summers there, the Downhill Grill, ah where the race organizers often drank after a long day, and many of us had ah a distaste in our mouths from triathletes.
Film Discussion: 'Inches to Miles'
00:03:50
Speaker
Not from, you know what I mean, not from like... ah
00:03:54
Speaker
tasting triathletes you know just that this taste that you just don't like them and their self-importance for you know this extreme endurance thing and there there was a pridefulness and a boastfulness that was always off-putting. It was not uncommon for people to coming up to train in Lake Placid on the bike course or something and they'd go into a store and pull out sweaty dollar bills from under their bike shorts to pay for a Gatorade or if they came in the restaurant smelling like shit and handing you just gross wet currency.
00:04:29
Speaker
ah Many of the athletes, to to borrow a term from our three-star reviewer, were total D-Bags. So Pete and I sought to do this race without training to, you know, stick it to them. What assholes. ah you know All dudes in their low to mid-20s are assholes, and I was no different. um Anyway, I couldn't swim 50 yards when I registered, so I had to work on that. But for the most part, I didn't do any specific training, nor did Pete, who was kind of a natural swimmer. ah We finished together in about 15 hours, 50 minutes. It might have been 15, 51 and change.
00:05:03
Speaker
we right around there, it doesn't matter. But boo it was murder, man. And I remember writing in my journal at the time, you know despite how we were trying to stick it to them, I wrote in my journal that I i had never been happier than when I finished. yeah It's a special feeling crossing that finish line you know as you're as you're nearing midnight ah and the celebration of crossing that finish line, the finishing party as they call it. in ah It's a really warm, electric feeling in a great way. You're going to ask me if you've been on your feet for so long. It's a special feeling. I had a newfound respect for it. Anyway, the people at the heart of Inches to Miles are really inspiring, wonderful people, certainly better than I was when I was 23. It centers on Lynn Rogers, Timmy Howard, and Shannon Greenfield.
00:05:55
Speaker
And it really is a spectacular film that charts the many types of journeys to reach the starting line at Lake Placid and, one hopes, the finish line of one of the more grueling enduring and endurance races on the planet. A 2.4 mile swim in open water on Marrow Lake. a 112 mile bike ride, two 56 mile loops. That's the killer at the Lake Placid thing. It's like you go 56 miles and you're cooked and it's hard. and You're like, I could go another loop and then a 26.2 mile run. No big deal. And that's like an out and back, out and back kind of thing. And it's ah that's grueling unto itself, just the repetition of it all.
00:06:35
Speaker
I can still feel my Achilles tendons just not wanting to Achilles tendon, if that makes any sense. This film really brought me back to my time in Lake Placid, some of the happiest summers I ever experienced, and one summer in 2002, being maybe the greatest of all.
Cole Heilborn's Filmmaking Journey
00:06:53
Speaker
ah But that's not your main to our conversation here, I just felt like saying that. Show notes, and the parting shot to this episode, and more! Alright, print it on mare.com, hey where you can also sign up for the companion rage. Against the algorithm newsletter, each podcast gets a cute little newsletter, since I'm not really on social media anymore.
00:07:11
Speaker
There's a too long didn't listen mini transcript some behind the scenes Bullshit about my rotten head my even more rotten writing especially with respect to this prefontaine biography that I'm trying to finish and there's also the first of the month rager with cool links book recommendations a list of 11 things it literally goes up to 11 and And just one other item, there's also patreon dot.com slash cnfpod if you want to help support the show with a couple bucks. And I want to welcome Paul Engman to the crew, new patron. Thank you so much for throwing a few bucks in the CNF and collection plate. Those dollars go into making the show better, be it better equipment or paying out writers for the audio magazine, which I hope to revive once I put my book to bed. Awesome stuff. Thank you, Paul.
00:08:04
Speaker
So in this conversation with Cole, we talk about the mechanics of documentary nonfiction storytelling, how you can't be quite as nimble as you can with, say, what I do, you just a notebook or an easy phone call or something, ah balancing storytelling with what ah but a brand wants. And in this case, how athletic brewing wasn't an intrusive brand in this film. It's subtle and pretty cool that they insisted on forefronting the story, not their product. And I think the most important lesson of all that Cole brings up, how he got his start and how you want to get your start in anything when you don't know how to get that toe hold. If you want to do a certain kind of work, you just need to do it. you know And then you build a body of work and that body of work gets better. And then you can show that to people.
00:08:51
Speaker
And then maybe from there, you can make a happy buck. So I know it was kind of a long intro. Lake Placid did that to me, man. So ah that's where we're at, CNFers. Are you ready for Cole Heilborn? Riff.
00:09:15
Speaker
Yeah. How did I get to film? I feel like everyone can ask themselves that question. You're like, how did I end up here? And it's a very meandering path. um For me, I feel like I've always loved I've always loved like creating stuff. Like as a kid, I was always, you know, the guy on the block who is like building go karts or tree houses or, you know, like a video camera or a set of tools. Like it didn't really matter what my tool was. Like I just loved making things. And so I've always really enjoyed the creativity of trying to build something. In high school is kind of when I first found the camera and a friend of mine had a camera and we were, I still am into mountain biking, but I, we were really into into mountain biking at the time. And we just started shooting like mountain bike videos up on our local bike hill. And they were like, as bad as you can, as you can guess. And it was like the dad cam with like dubstep music put to it.
00:10:11
Speaker
And it was a ton of fun. I feel like those first few videos like really kind of opened my eyes. It's like what you could do with a camera and slowly but surely I just started making more and more videos. And I you know eventually started a YouTube channel like every kid in high school does and started just cranking out like funny goofy kind of skits and sketches and like really VFX heavy work heavy I say that like I was a VFX artist like it was pretty basic stuff but it's a ton of fun and like that's really kind of what what um ignited this fire of like
00:10:46
Speaker
telling stories and being creative through the video medium. And so went to college, studied film and video. Had no idea what the heck I was going to do to like actually make a living doing that. um Came back, moved back to to to home and just kind of stumbled into like the corporate commercial side of video production. I didn't really know that existed, but I found a job on Craigslist offering me a hundred bucks to go shoot an event at the local hotel convention center. And I was like, dang, like this is I just made money. I made a hundred bucks for two hours with my camera. Like, this is awesome. And and yeah, I think like after that gig, I filed for my sole prop and was like, well, I'm just going to try to like find work and start my own business and see where it takes me. And that was eight or nine years ago. And today I run a production company called Portside Productions. We work in the outdoor and kind of outdoor adjacent industries.
00:11:40
Speaker
And we help our clients, we work with, you know, direct director brands and with agencies and we help them tell stories, make documentaries, ah be that, you know, feature length or kind of the short film length. And then we also do commercial work. So we help folks develop creative and then execute on that. So that's, you know, 15, 30 seconds, 60 seconds, that type of stuff. um So I'm a producer and a director these days. When you were trying to get momentum and everything, what what can you point to you know after you made that you know that first hundred bucks for a couple hours of work? What can you point to as something that um was it was an early win that helped put wind in your sails to get ah yeah to build start building more of that body of work?
00:12:23
Speaker
Oh man, I don't know that there's like a singular thing. I feel like, I mean, I've spent the last nine years like trying to figure out like how, what's my place? Like what, like who are we as a company? Like what do we do? What's the type of work we want to do? How do we, how does that work provide value to potential clients who are our clients? Like
Networking and Building a Filmmaking Career
00:12:43
Speaker
I've asked myself thousands of questions and only answered a few of them. I feel like if I had to like choose a couple kind of singular points along the way, somewhere along the way, someone told me, or I realized like, if you want to get paid to create the type of work you want to make, you have to make that work first and, and, and show it on your portfolio. And so, um, at the time for us, that meant just like going out and creating spec work. Um, at the time in the business, like we were really only getting paid to shoot weddings, uh, do real estate videos. And those things are great. And I think.
00:13:16
Speaker
many budding videographers and filmmakers can re relate. like That's how we often all get started is like those those kind of more basic gigs. I say basic like wedding cinematography is definitely a hard job, but yeah it wasn't for me. um I was like, I want to make something that's like outside. I want to have and want there to be a story. I want there to be action and movement and energy. And so that meant just like really taking, trying to take the initiative and like go out and create, create spec work, finding interesting stories and just shooting them. And then slowly as I'd like build spec work, I'd share that with, you know, my connections and slowly, like that would lead to paid work and you do more of that paid work and and then you have more to put on your portfolio. And it's just kind of a snowball that goes and goes and goes. Um, so I think that was one kind of piece to it. Another element was like,
00:14:05
Speaker
Finding work can be a very challenging ah challenging problem that I think a lot of filmmakers experience also, um and especially as you're getting started. It's like, how do you build connections to the right people? who want to work on these types of projects. And I i kind of stumbled across this. I started up a podcast called the Backcountry Marketing Podcast. And I interview you know leaders in the outdoor marketing industry about the lessons they're learning. It's meant to be an educational show about the the the landscape of marketing. And I started that kind of as like an adjacent to the production company. And I realized that at the time, you we've done 170 episodes now on that show. I didn't realize it at the time, but that podcast has become
00:14:47
Speaker
one of the main ways we find work these days is one of the main ways main ways we build relationships with with potential clients. And not every guest who comes on the show turns into a client by any means, but it's been such a great way to meet people, build relationships, ah and and sometimes those turn into projects, turn into client relationships. So if I had to pick like two things, I'd say, build your body of work to reflect the type of work you want to get hired to do, and then figure out how to build relationships um with potential clients. and And maybe that's not a podcast, but like do that, however you see fit, whatever works for you.
00:15:20
Speaker
Right. I love the the agency that that ah that you have to do. You know, if you want to make narrative podcasts or something and you're like, how do I get my start? It's like, well, go out and just do that thing. Go find a nonprofit who might need some storytelling. You know what? I'm going to volunteer this for you. You know, you'll get your story out there. I'll get some work that I can show other people. And I i think a lot of people who are ah Struggling to figure out like well, how do you how do you get into it? What you get into it? It's as it's it's simple but not easy It's just like by just doing it. Yeah, and it's hard for people to get their heads around sometimes It's like oh I just go out and do it like Seth Godin will say like you want to be in marketing like go do marketing go find someone and do some work for them and then it it's ah a Body of work and when you run into the gatekeepers, they don't care where you went to school. They just want you they just want to
00:16:15
Speaker
know that you can pull it off and you can only do that by showing them actual work. Right. Yeah, totally. It's tough, though, because like you got to make money and survive while you're trying to do that. And so, um yeah, it's ah it's a tricky spot to be in. But I think if you can figure out how to structure your life and I don't know, try to keep your expenses as low as possible just to like pursue the thing you want to pursue. I mean, that's kind of that was kind of my approach and it still is my approach. Yeah. And what were some of the the day jobs that you had to kind of subsidize the work you wanted to do before that work eventually subsumed? Yeah, it became. Yeah. So I worked part time. So I filed my sole prop after that hundred god hundred dollar gig. Got my business license. I was like, all right, I'm ready to go. And then it was like crickets. So I was like. Oh, okay, this is a little harder than maybe I thought. ah So I started where i did a bunch of like and did a bunch of odd stuff. ah the I had a part-time job for about a year and a half. I worked at a warehouse shipping out cap furniture and pet supplies. And so I would i would show up to this warehouse, I don't know, like 5 AM or 6 AM. I would you know get my list of of tasks for the day. and
00:17:26
Speaker
and package up a bunch of cap furniture and load it on a pallet to be picked up later that day by FedEx. And I would try to be out there out of there by 10am or 12pm, hustle back to the house and then just spend the rest of the day working on video stuff.
Storytelling and Client Collaboration
00:17:42
Speaker
And so I did that for about a year and a half. And I remember, I remember putting in my two weeks for that job. I think I had a couple thousand dollars in the bank and I had like three months of work lined up. And I was like, OK, if there's ever a time I can I can quit, like I think it's now like this is the most runway I've ever had. And I was like, worst case scenario, I could always just come back to this job. And so I put in my two weeks and I was like, all right, here we go. And ah yeah, I haven't.
00:18:10
Speaker
I mean, I haven't looked back. Oh, that's great. and And when it comes to ah yeah doing the work itself, wait where do you find yourself most excited and engaged, be it you know behind the camera filming or with your computer and editing? you know where Where do you like prefer to be? Where do you really lock in? I think that's changed over the years as the business has grown and and I've been you know reevaluating my role in the business. I'm not so much technical these days. There was a time when I was hands on the camera and I was key you know hands on the keyboard, but I mostly take on ah a producing and a directing role these days. So I'm usually hiring a crew to help me.
00:18:50
Speaker
with the project we're working on. What I really enjoy these days is I enjoy the business side of it. Like I enjoy the challenge of like trying to run the business and find work and build those relationships and solve those business problems as much as I love the creativity and the storytelling and the work that goes into actually making the product. ah So those are those are the two things that I love. On the creative side, like I love you know, getting to sit down and with with the client and try to understand like, what are we making? Why are we making it? What do we want this to look and feel like? What's the goal? And then taking all of those answers and and then trying to find a story in which to communicate all of those ideas. And I enjoy kind of that that that communication between the client side and then the creative side.
00:19:41
Speaker
And then I really just enjoy the process of like, and of finding the stories. Like I get stoked, you know, telling the stories, being out in the field, you know, capturing gorgeous moments, like, you know, like golden hour, or, you know, if there's like, we have a cable cable camp set up and like mountain bikers are ripping down a trail. Like I just, I love that type of energy on set and like finding those really special moments. be that interviews or like you know epic imagery or landscape shots. like i I don't know. there's's ah There's a number of elements I love throughout the process. Yeah, what are some of the questions when you're meeting with ah with a client or just the the people you're looking to tell stories for that ah what what are some of the questions that they get hung up on as you're looking to flesh out know the narrative of oh yeah and the get to the heart of it? I think a big one is like what story are we telling?
00:20:34
Speaker
Because ah I guess to back up, like a lot of the a lot of the stories that we tell are kind of in that brand storytelling vein. And that's how it fits into their marketing department. And I think there's there's so many stories out there. ah And a brand often has hundreds or thousands of pitches you know that tell interesting stories. And it's like, how do you find a really, what what is a good one? And good is obviously arbitrary. um But what is good for this use case? Or what is good for this particular yeah this particular situation. And so I think one question is like, what is a good, you know, what is the right story to tell? um Who's the right character? What is the right subject? What is the right ah environment? What's the right location for all this to happen? And I feel like a lot of those questions can be answered if you really understand kind of the marketing goals so behind the project. Because again, like that's the angle that we do a lot of our work in is from the marketing side, we're less narrative. um
00:21:31
Speaker
And so I think a lot of those questions like can be answered through understanding the client's goals. And I just enjoy the process of taking those goals and then trying to find a story that like accomplishes all of those things. um I think about it. I guess I think about their goals in terms of like storytelling language and Characters and and environments and all those kind of nitty-gritty details that storytellers like to geek out on For sure. Yeah, and I come from like a journalism side of things and ah not not so much a like a brand thing though I've done some brand writing before and it's like a it kind of uses the same skill set but at the same in journalism you're not
00:22:12
Speaker
you're not, like, ah ah acquiescing to what the sources want. You know, ultimately, you're making all those decisions and they don't get that editorial say. But when you're working with brands, of course, it's like, all right, you want to still be creative and tell those stories, but ultimately, like, they have final say. And so ah how how do you, not that you come come at it from a journalistic background, but how do you navigate, you know, the the dialogue that you need to have with them? So you're you're telling something that excites you, but it's also in service of what they want to do. Yeah, I think it's just through like setting up a good foundation, a good working relationship. My analogy that I kind of always preface new clients or new projects with is like, the storytelling and the creative process is messy. And I kind of envision it like if
00:22:58
Speaker
you're climbing a mountain and you're roped up with like a rope team climbing a glacier for safety. Like your your rope team is, there's individual people on that line, but everyone has to work together to like make it to the summit. And some people might think you go this way or this way. Some people might be slower or faster, but we all have to communicate. We all have to work together and we all have our unique skill sets on this team. And so I don't view, I don't view the client Like our our relationship with the clients is adversarial. I don't feel like it's a us versus them, like in terms of like, quote unquote, winning, you know, the whatever the the creative discussion is. I think if we set up a good foundation and we can have candid conversations, like that friction, there's inevitably friction. um I don't think that's bad. I think you just kind of have to work through it and just talk through it. And just and just know like, okay, remember like this is what they're trying to accomplish.
00:23:55
Speaker
This is what we're trying to accomplish and somewhere like we're going to find a place in the middle where, where it works for everyone and it honors the story, but it also, you know, accomplishes whatever the, the, the client goals are through it. So yeah, no, just good communication.
Documentary Filmmaking Techniques
00:24:11
Speaker
As somewhat of a transitionary punch in right here, we're going to start talking a little bit about ah Inches to Miles, the the wonderful hour-long documentary that Cole and his company produced in conjunction with Athletic Brewing, who I'm a brand ambassador for. Not that I get any money or anything of that nature, but I love i love their non-alcoholic beer. I do.
00:24:37
Speaker
So we're going to talk about the film. It's a brilliant film and we're going to talk about it. Okay. And what was it about, let's say, uh, you know, Lynn Rogers, Timmy Howard and, uh, Chan and, uh, what's it, Chan and Greenfield, like, what was it about the three of them that, that spoke to, that spoke to you to tell, uh, to tell the story of like, uh, you know, of building up to Lake Placid Ironman. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. In the film, we had three characters. They were all really incredible people. And I think, you know, one of the goals from the beginning with this film was like we wanted to tell stories that ah were inspiring. We wanted to tell stories that someone could could listen to or watch and and be like, wow, like this is this is really motivating. This is really impressive. Like one of athletics, you know, kind of brand values is like without compromise, like the pursuit of progress. And so we wanted to find stories that kind of embodied that spirit.
00:25:33
Speaker
But we also wanted to do so in a way that represented um just a variety of of audience members who might find themselves watching. And so the goal is to pick three different people with different stories in the hopes that you know as the as the watcher, you could you could relate and connect with at least one of them and and find empathy for them on their quest. And so Lynn, I'll kind of give a brief summary of like each of their stories. So, so Lynn is an amazing woman. She's out of Chicago to summarize her story. Um, she is an athlete. She's an iron man. She's done an iron man before.
00:26:10
Speaker
She's a, has a PhD, she's a doctor studying the brain and, and, um, through a crazy turn of events, she ends up, she's training for an iron man. She gets bit by a dog and something like 10 days later, um, at the start line of an iron man, the one she's been training for, she ends up paralyzed. And it's this wild journey, this wild turn of events where she's you know literally the best shape of her life. And then 10 days later, she can't walk. And she's like, what the heck happened to me? And so she ah has then had this ongoing battle with this chronic disease called CIDP. And she's been trying to regain the ability. She's regained the ability to walk and to run and to cycle.
00:26:50
Speaker
um but she wants to get back to that Iron Man start line and give it another go and try to tackle it, you know, with this new disease. And so when she was telling us her story, we're like, oh my gosh, like this is amazing, incredible, like all the feelings. And so we were like, this is one of those stories that like you read about or you watch about, you're like, wow. And I think that's all we that's all we could say. It was just like, wow, like how could we not include this story? her So Timmy, to give a brief summary on him, he currently lives in Indianapolis, Indiana, indiana um grew up kind of a rough childhood, ah ended up getting addicted to alcohol, drugs, ultimately that led to heroin and being on the streets for, I don't know, three, something like six years.
00:27:36
Speaker
crazy, crazy set of life experiences on the streets. Ultimately, though, kind of hit rock bottom and was like, I can't live this life anymore. I need to turn it around. And so um the way he turned his life around was accidentally kind of finding running and the community around running and athletics. And he's slowly um been kind of you know building his life back, got married, and and now athletics is like this incredible community that helps him it helps him stay sober. It provides him the support that he needs. And an Iron Man for him was kind of this way of saying like, I'm not who I was. I want to try something that's difficult and I want to prove to myself that I can do it ah because of what I've been through.
00:28:18
Speaker
So again, his story was like one of those wow stories. You're just like, oh my gosh, I can't believe like this guy's been through more in his life than 10 people will be through in their lives. Shannon's story, I think it was a very relatable story. He grew up in New York, a fairly privileged kind of, you know, basic upbringing. And and he really didn't take life very seriously. um He didn't really, try very hard. He ended up getting kicked out of college somewhere along the way. He was like, you know, I really need to kind of
00:28:49
Speaker
take life seriously, take responsibility for my actions and and discipline and focus myself. And so he kind of did so through athletics. And similar to the other two, he's like, I want to do an Ironman because I want to prove to myself that I'm i'm responsible, like I'm disciplined, like i'm I'm no longer the person who I was. I'm no longer the college you know dropout, like I can do this. And so for each of them, they each had their own very strong reason for why they wanted to accomplish this Ironman. And I think that's, that's kind of how we picked them all was like, we wanted to find some really wow stories. We wanted to balance those with different geography. We wanted to find stories that were relatable. And so we interviewed 12 members of team athletic, and we ended up choosing those three based on some of those parameters.
00:29:33
Speaker
Yeah, and given that you shoot you know so much so much footage, ah yeah let's just say for interviews alone and then getting whatever you know B-roll you need of them working out and stuff of that nature, and you've got you know an hour of tape you know of of a movie. and So what becomes the challenge of like balancing the three of them so one doesn't dominate the the other three or two don't dominate the other one? Yeah, that's a real challenge. I mean, I think our interviews, our interview with Lynn was like seven hours. are Timmy was like, Timmy was like five. Shannon was like four or five. And so, so there's obviously a lot that did not make the cut. And I mean, post-production was six or nine months, six or eight months. And I think every day we showed up to the edit, we were like, okay.
00:30:20
Speaker
and we What did we cut? Because there is a lot. And I think, you know, we wanted to try to, we wanted to structure the film in a way that felt like we were all moving forwards towards Lake Placid. like Lake Placid was kind of like this looming challenge that was hanging over all of their heads. And as we were progressing towards that, we started to understand more of their backstory so that Lake Placid then became not only a physical challenge, but it became a challenge that really kind of tested their spirits and and the things that they've been through. We played a lot around with the structure. We did all that mostly through paper cuts, um moving scenes around on on a Google Doc and then translating that to the timeline. But we tried to find a way to kind of scatter them through all throughout. So we're <unk> jumping in between each of their stories in a way that felt fluid and in a way that felt like we were progressing. So we kind of structured them
00:31:11
Speaker
So that we were all building together. We also didn't want this film to like, cause some of the backstory for some of these characters is pretty difficult and heavy stuff. And so we also didn't want this film to feel like a total downer for like the first 30 minutes. And so we tried to also consider how do we structure each of their stories. So maybe while, you know, Lynn is becoming paralyzed, like maybe Timmy is like, there's more positive beat for something happening in his storyline. and So we try to structure them in a way like that, where it wasn't like back to back to back, like broken, difficult stuff. um
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah. Well that makes sense. And are you when you're kind of storyboarding that out and looking at the structure are you kind of do you color code each thing so you can have a visual reference of oh this looks a little blue here. We need it needs to have some red in there to kind of balance out. things of that nature. Yeah, so our first step was to develop a beat sheet. So we got like one of those triford trifold boards and and gave a scene, yeah, post a note for each character and kind of mapped out all their scenes. And so, yeah, it was like blue, green and and pink, I think were the colors. And so that was like our first step to see.
00:32:23
Speaker
What are all these scenes and beats look like in order? And we rearranged a lot with that initial beat sheet and before we started actual production. And then once we wrapped and we started looking at all of our footage, we rearranged that beat sheet again. And then we eventually moved to the script where we actually then were moving transcripts and moving lines and dialogue and all of that. But yeah, I think. that was definitely one of the techniques we used. But I also think too, like beyond just like total screen time that maybe someone has, there's also, you have to like consider the emotional toll or like the the emotional experience I feel like with each of them. And so that was ah that was an element too. So like on paper sometimes it would look like,
00:33:03
Speaker
Oh, you know, Shannon has way more screen time, but we're trying to like balance that with maybe a shorter amount of screen time from Lynn because like her, you know, or her story is like super heavy. So maybe we need to like give more screen time to someone else to like try to balance it out. So it wasn't like a one for one kind of breakdown of time. We were really also trying to think about it in terms of like the emotional experience too. No, that makes a lot of sense. I love hearing the the mechanics of that. And it's it's not just, like like you said, it's not just ah a minute. You're not trying to just balance time. You're trying to balance emotion. Yeah. what's What I imagine is a huge challenge in documentary film versus, say, more what I do, which is more just like narrative writing, narrative journalism, is like if there's a moment, let's say, in the race, and I'm like, ah, you know what? This feels a little thin.
00:33:56
Speaker
Let me go back to the principal people and like re-interview them. Let's try to get get some more get some more detail so I can like flesh out a scene with you. It's like you are at the mercy of what you're able to film and maybe you can backfill it with some of some of that narration on their part. But that said it's like if you don't get it in camera you can't go get it again. So how do you how do you account for that. Yeah, so there's a number of ways that I feel like projects can be structured, ah mostly that are dependent upon like timeline and budget, because like some documentaries, you can go back for three or four interviews, right, and and do pickups and fill in the gaps and
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah, this this was this film was like kind of half of it was like retelling of stories that had happened in the past. And then the other last third of the film was going to Lake Placid and seeing the race happen. And so we were kind of blending production. It was like real time capture. And then we were kind of taking more of a narrative approach to like, retell the things that have happened in the past. And so It was, it took a lot of planning, honestly. So we, we only did, yeah so we, I think had 10 days of production. No, that doesn't sound right. Maybe 12 days of production. And so we spent a few days with each of the characters before the race. And then we spent a few days with all of them at the race. And so we spent a lot of time with those few days before the race with each character, we spent a lot of time just prepping and.
00:35:19
Speaker
and we spent we We essentially mapped out their story on papers. We were like, these are the beats we need to cover. These are the scenes that we need to tell this part of their story. This is the dialogue. These are the questions. This is the dialogue that we think we need to tell this part of their story. And then it just was a matter of sitting down and having an interview and with each of them and just going over their story and um understanding like What are the transition points in their story? And and being getting to the point where like we knew we needed someone to say, we never wanted the characters, we never wanted to tell them what to say. um But we also knew that there was a lot of jumping around in time and space with some of these stories, and we needed to try and help the audience feel like they were moving through the story in a way that made sense and was coherent. And so we got we we there were some points where, like for instance, Lynn, you know
00:36:11
Speaker
ah We needed her to like say a transition statement. We needed her to like fast forward her life through a year and like move us from A to B in a way that made sense for the audience. And so we knew that we needed to get a statement like that from her. And so we just spent some time in the interview chair having her say something that felt very organic and natural to her, but was a transitional statement we could use in the edit that helped us move through the time. So I think we were able we only did primemate we only did interviews with each of them once. We had some verite and like pickup interviews throughout, but we never went back and did more interviews. so
00:36:46
Speaker
because i because we were able to get most of everything we needed um in those primary interviews. ah For the race, we got almost everything we needed while we were there to to capture that real time um stuff. And then we we did have to include, we did include a speech that Lynn gave um to an event that happened post race. And that was a way of kind of wrapping up the film ah where she acknowledged how how the race went for each of
Ethics and Engagement in Documentaries
00:37:11
Speaker
the athletes. so Just, yeah, a lot of planning. That's really what it boiled down to. Yeah. And when you say, you know, verite, what does that mean? Oh, kind of like fly on the wall approach like camera is is following a character around and, you know, maybe they're like checking in their bike and and I might prompt them. I'm like, hey, Timmy, can you tell us what you're doing? And then he just starts talking um like that's kind of the the verite approach. OK.
00:37:40
Speaker
And what's also, I imagine, a ah big challenge. and ah It's probably something that you're used to, and certainly people, like your main characters, are kind of used to it by this point. it's ah you know If I'm shadowing someone, I'm basically just carrying a notebook around. yeah Maybe I have a voice recorder, but it's primarily a notebook, and I can be a fly on the wall without being too intrusive. But you know you're probably you know you've got cameras, maybe a boom mics, and you're trying to follow people around, especially in very, like ah very dramatic settings where someone is going someone has had a tremendous letdown and it's just like, good here's the camera and I gotta now film you while you're breaking down and sobbing and it's like, ah you know I know it's part of your craft, but how do you develop the skill and the muscle to be able to still hold that camera there while you know people are you know in a weak moment?
00:38:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's tricky for sure. Cause you don't want to feel like you're exploiting them or you're taking advantage of ah of a moment, but at the same time you're like, wow, like this is, we're here to document. And so we need to like do our job, but how do we do it in a way that. is as comfortable as possible you know for the person who's in that moment. so I think it starts with the rapport. I think it starts with kind of the expectations going into the project. um Obviously, you know you can't do these types of stories without trust between the film production team and the characters.
00:39:09
Speaker
the people, I keep calling them characters, they're people. um ah I do the same thing sometimes, like, yeah, my characters, my story, were like, no, but they're actual people, and I figure into my imagination that I brought to the page. Yeah, and so I think it just, it starts there. um And I think if if you can, I think that's like the first step is you have to build that trust. You have to, I think you have to let them know from the very beginning, like what your intentions are as the storyteller. um you have to You have to figure out a way to, build that bridge. And then when you find yourself, if you find yourself in one of those situations, I think you still have to be, you have to, you have to read the room, you have to figure out, is this the right time? Like maybe we should wait a minute before we start the camera. Maybe we should ask like, are you okay if we turn the camera on? Like there's ways I think to kind of soften the blow before a camera just shows up in their face.
00:40:00
Speaker
but I think it starts with that understanding. And you know there's one moment in our film where Lynn has a breakdown and yeah, it was it was rough. like We didn't just wanna shove a camera in her face when she was having this really you know personal and intimate moment with herself, but we also knew like we we need to capture this. And so I think in that moment, our strategy was, okay, like let's let's give her as much time as we can, Let's start the camera and I think she reluctantly knew like, okay, I need, this is part of the deal. Unfortunately, like yeah I need to, I need to bear with these guys while they asked me a couple of questions. So yeah, I don't know. I think it's a very individualistic approach between you and and the person you're working with.
00:40:45
Speaker
Yeah and I think it comes ah when you ah when you set the expectations early on but through your sit down interviews you get people comfortable with the idea of the red light is on or in and then they they this is sort of the hot tub they're bathing in you know for better or worse and it's just like OK. Ideally, I will be triumphant here, in that it but in those moments of struggle, that still needs to be documented because this is nonfiction. This is real stuff, and that's ah they're at the the mercy of what actually happens, and they're in it, and it's like, all right, well, yeah, this is part of it, and I agreed to be documented here. and
00:41:23
Speaker
But but ah then on your end, it's also like, it's kind of like the ah medical thing of just like, do no harm, but you still need to document. Yeah. And I think, I think for them, like, I think getting through some of those rougher moments probably was helpful for them. I think they reminded themselves. I'm assuming I think they all they knew why they wanted to make this film and be a part of it, because I think they all wanted to share their stories to inspire others. And I think if I had to guess, like I think that helped each of them go, like, go through some of those tougher moments where There was a camera in their face and like they didn't want the camera there, but they were like, okay, I know this for the greater good. You know, like, I know this will.
00:41:59
Speaker
This will help people. Um, it also can be motivational. I think Timmy told us a story after the race where he was in the run and he was just, he was done. Um, but every time he saw us out on the course with the camera, he's like, okay, I gotta look good for the camera. I gotta like, I gotta start running. And so he would, he would run past the camera, go around the corner and then stop and then walk again. And he's like, honestly, the camera helped me get a, get a better time on the iron man. So oh that's hilarious. So it could be helpful too. You know, Yeah, i I am like putting myself in their shoes and they see the crew come and they're like, oh fuck. yeah I got to like put on a good face. Like I'm not in the mood for this right now. Okay. All right. What? All right. We're in it. All right. what What you got? I'll try to give you what I can. You, yeah, you, you, you hit the nail on the head. There's a lot of moments like that in the outtakes of the footage.
00:42:53
Speaker
And like given how much has to ultimately get cut, what struck so ah stuck out to me was this idea, there was this quote, this Churchill quote that Lynne uses to on two times basically, once when she, you know, I'll have spoilers, like once when she doesn't make the bike cut off and she she can't can't proceed to the marathon. And then at the very end, ah she says it again at that that conference that you were talking about, And it's just this idea of success isn't final and failure isn't fatal. And it's like in a short film when you have so much footage and when you hear something of that nature come up twice, you're like, that is a kind of the soul of the of the movie in a sense. And you leave it in there twice because that really has to carry a lot of weight and it's like the meaning of it. So like what did what did that line you know mean to you as the filmmaker behind behind the story? I think it summarized
00:43:47
Speaker
like I mean, telling a story is like complicated, and you spend so much time like trying to summarize like what is this story I'm telling, both for yourself, um but also so you can like tell people what this movie is about. ah So it's I think it's internal and external to like try to find a way to summarize the story. And and yeah, when Lynn shared that quote with us, as it's part of her, you know, her personal kind of mantra, like she reminds herself of that every day. And it's like, oh, this is it. Like, you know, this this is this is the movie like this is the story. um Success isn't final failure isn't fatal. And so the fact that like,
00:44:25
Speaker
she like She could summarize the whole thing for us, I think really helped us as the filmmakers were like, oh, this is it. like this is This is kind of the guiding light that we need to kind of aim towards. And the fact that it had so much meaning and and meant so much to her too, I think just made it all that much more authentic and real. It weren't, they weren't words we put in her mouth. It was just something that, um, she's discovered for herself and believes herself. So that was a neat, that was a neat find. That's one of those things that you kind of discover along the way, as much as I talk about planning, like there's so much you can't plan for. And that was one of those things that popped up through the process.
00:45:04
Speaker
Yeah, it's amazing when that stuff happens when you like eat this. And that's the beauty of nonfiction too. You can tell yourself in knots and worry about like, oh my God, is the enough good stuff gonna happen that will make this compelling? Cause I can't massage it. It's just gonna be what it is. And then certain things happen that you're like, you could have never seen coming. And then lo and behold, she says something like that. And you're like, oh my God, like that's what it, that is it. That's what it's about right there. And it's, she summed it up. You didn't have to, Coacher to say it or you could never have seen it coming and it's like wow, that's the heart and soul of the movie right there. Totally Yeah, I and I think that's kind of the risk of Nonfiction storytelling documentary filmmaking is like you're just kind of taking a plunge, you know, and yeah and you're like I'm we're gonna find what we find so um and I think there's ways you can try to set yourself up for success certainly, but ah Yeah, that's I think that's just kind of the name of the game. I sure, and I think the name of the game also is, ah no matter how inspiring certain people's stories can be, ultimately, and this is more true in audio and in documentary, is they need to be they need to be good talkers, too. like They need to be good storytellers themselves. Lynn is especially skilled at it, and she you're like, okay, not only are you inspiring, but you're able to articulate it in a way that's compelling on screen and on the ear.
00:46:27
Speaker
so like was that a component of your auditioning of of a lot of the people who I imagine have all compelling stories but some are just really they're just better talkers than others absolutely I think like that's that's you know second to their story like that's that's the next requirement um yeah for better or for worse because I think that does alienate a lot of people who have really great stories um but if if if you're telling the story in the way we did, which is like, we're going to sit down, we're going to do an interview, and you're going to tell us your story, there's other ways you could tell someone's story. But if that's kind of the format you're taking, yeah, then they have to be articulate, they have to be self aware enough to describe but their story. And I think that takes to get to a spot to do that, I think takes a lot of personal work. um It takes a lot of knowing yourself, it's It takes a lot of being vulnerable. And those are tough things. And so while I think everyone has a story, I don't know that everyone can tell their story. And so that's definitely one of the things you got to look for ah in a documentary. you know Maybe as as a writer, like you can kind of help fill in some of the gaps. tu You can tell me if that is if that's true or not. But I think in the documentary world, it's a little different. like you you need You need someone to to to tell you their story. And it's our job to kind of piece it together as best we can.
00:47:48
Speaker
Absolutely yeah as as a writer you can you can fill in those gaps you can like. Pump up the narration a bit to for their shortcomings in that regard and ah you know when they do occasionally say something that really does. Has some snap crackle and pop to it you can really like highlight that but otherwise it's you're you're putting the the shine on it but. Yeah, when you're at the mercy ah of their actual voice for film or ah radio or podcasts, it's like you need them to be good talkers. And ah yeah, so it's like you got to be really judicious about you know who you're who you're picking because they you know they they have to carry the water for the film.
Brand Storytelling and Narrative Challenges
00:48:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that's where you got to make the tough decisions of who do we include? Who do we not include? I would love to try to like make a film about actually we're working on a short film right now about an individual is great story, but you know, talking like isn't his strong suit. And so, but it's such a good story that we're like, how do we tell this story? Maybe without relying on a primary sit down interview with him. And so it brings up a whole other host of creative challenges. Uh, but that doesn't mean his story isn't worth telling. It's just, we got to get creative with how we do so.
00:48:57
Speaker
Oh, yeah, yeah 100% and it's and what I what I liked too about this particular film is like of course it's like tied in with athletic brewing and but the The product placement if you will and the branding of it isn't Obnoxious and and like in your face like oh, this is clearly a commercial for you know this particular brand and it's a It's very subtle just in the just what they're wearing, because they're ambassadors you know for. And ah and there's not it's not like every scene has like you know a can of non-alcoholic beer in the background. There's like ah very little of that going on throughout the whole film. And I found that really, ah it just lend it lent itself to a greater sense of confidence on the part of the brand and the filmmaking, I think, that we don't have to hit the viewer in the face with this thing. like We're forefronting the story, not our product.
00:49:48
Speaker
yeah i mean that's props to the athletic team i mean that that direction comes from them i think that's a that's a respectable and a bold way to go i think the world of brand storytelling is so nebulous and complicated. um And obviously there's some great brands out there that do it really well that I think people look to, um but to do it well requires a lot of thought and it requires, um I think an entire team, you know a whole C-suite, if you will, of people who see the value and see the long-term play. um So it's definitely not a ah one and done or a one-off,
00:50:26
Speaker
I think know people do that, but I think playing the long game is tricky. And so props to Athletic for, I mean, yeah, making making it happen. um Sure, we we were the ones that were helping tell the story, but they were the ones that were like, hey, we want to tell a story in the first place. um So it definitely would not have come to be without them. When you're looking out there at the documentary landscape, like what is it that you're seeing out there that you're inspired by, or you know just you know what's the lay of the land for for you as a filmmaker that's exciting you about it, but also is like maybe be problematic as well? Oh, man.
00:51:00
Speaker
um
00:51:04
Speaker
that's a that's ah that's ah That's a deep question that I don't have all the answers to. i just it's such a It's a really interesting time, I feel like, to be a filmmaker. And I guess, again, I'm speaking from the perspective of like working in the kind of the commercial side of it, that I don't understand as much the narrative side or have much of a pulse on that. I feel like media is kind of, like media at large, you know streaming, um studios, Hollywood, like everything is just kind of up in the air. like Everything is unknown. there's There's a lot of uncertainty. There's opportunity, but there's also fear.
00:51:40
Speaker
And I think as much as I for a long time, I never really thought that affected like the small, small teams like us. But I think I've been realizing like, no, actually, I think like those big tectonic changes, they do eventually trickle down to to people like us, the the filmmakers, you know, that are, yeah, making branded stuff. And so I feel so there's like multiple levels, there's like the big level, like everything's changing at the top level. I also feel like the marketing like the outdoor marketing industries is and interest is another kind of sub level. ah That's actually like's like a third level. Second level would be like marketing and like brand storytelling. Third level is like the outdoor industry specifically. And each of those three levels are all going through their own changes. They're all going through their own questioning and trying to ah articulate the value and understand like, what are we doing? Like, how are we marketing? Like, what is good marketing? And all of that's changing.
00:52:36
Speaker
And so it's ah it is an interesting time to be in, I feel like. I think you know i i see this, I hear about it, I talk to other filmmakers, like they all experience it. The last year has been a pretty bumpy year for a lot of people. Inconsistent work, like projects getting started and then being canceled. and And I don't think it's, I don't think it's the fault of them. I think it's just, there's so much that's changing and we're all trying to figure out like, where do we fit into all of this? I think the thing that like gives me hope and like gives me encouragement is just like, I mean, there's, it's never been a better time to like tell stories. There's never been a better time to distribute those stories. Sure. Like distribution is complicated and
00:53:17
Speaker
I don't understand, you know, even a tenth of it, but it's like there's so much potential. um There's so there's there's almost too much opportunity. It's like there's too many things to pursue. If we just had like five things to pursue, it would be easier. So I don't know. I think there's a lot of fear. There's also a lot of a lot of opportunity out there. Also, if you can find it, you can look for it. Well yeah, and I think nowadays with ah social media being what it is and how people have a lot of agency to be their their own storytellers, you see see this a lot with athletes now, which I imagine is pretty frustrated for like sports documentarians who are like, want to tell some some rich stories, but like,
00:53:56
Speaker
ah bigger athlete you know they have their own production companies now so they control the message ah they they if if they share anything it's it's on their terms and you know that's their prerogative but at the same time we kind of lose the messaging is it's a little bit cloudy because you're controlling the editorial and it's like and it's not in the hands of you know independent journalists or filmmakers are of that in that regard I think it's all the more important these days for people like yourself who are like skilled in this to help tell those stories who know the story beats and the mechanics of it ah because everyone can do it means everyone can and as a result the
00:54:38
Speaker
the fundamental skills aren't necessarily shared by everyone. So it's on people like yourself who can be like, you know what? No, this is how we're going to really animate the story and find find the heart of the things. And it's going to have that much more power in the hand in your hands versus you know someone else who's just like putting a reel on Instagram. Yeah. I mean, I think that that that is a piece of the fragmentation of like everything that everyone's still trying to evaluate. We're kind of like, where's this going to go? um Yeah. But yeah, I think like um yeah i mean think everyone is, like more stories are being told every day. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think i think we, I say we, I think like the marketing industry, the outdoor industry ah has devalued, not devalued. I think we've lost track of like what is a good story. I think like the stories that get told are,
00:55:26
Speaker
I don't know, the ah maybe I'm just jaded, but like they're kind of dry. They're kind of all the same. um None of them are like, some of them are truly groundbreaking. Don't get me wrong, but many of them are just meh. Like they're not, you know, as the audience, you don't get engrossed. You're not enthralled. There's no sense of like empathy for the character. And I think that's the biggest opportunity is like, like let's let's redefine like, what is a good story? What counts? What doesn't? Sure, everyone's is important. It's great that everyone can share their own story. But for the stories that are really, really good, like how can we set this up this up this this one up for success? How can we get this in the hands of the right storyteller with the right distribution, you know, with the right funding or the right client or brand or whomever to like make this thing happen? And I think you do see that. ah But they're just few and far between.
00:56:17
Speaker
Yeah, when you ask that question, what is a good story? like For you, what is the what is a good story to you based on your taste? I just love anything that emotionally connects me with the character. like I want to feel for the character. I want to i think the biggest thing is like I want to care for the character. And if I don't care about them, then I just, I'm not interested. um Like, yeah and so I think that's like, that's kind of one of the litmus tests is like, is this story that you're telling, you know, do you care? Does the audience care? And I think that part of that's the story itself of the character, a part of that's how the story is being told, um all of the creative choices that you're making to tell that story. But I think that's the biggest thing. That's that's what I want to see. um And that's that's that was one of the things that I kind of kept repeating to myself and our team throughout
00:57:10
Speaker
this documentary was like, we need to care about these characters. We need to care about how they cross the finish line, not because of like the physical achievement, but because of what this race means in the context of their life. And that was that was one of our own like internal kind of guiding lights towards telling this story. We need people to care. ah Crossing an Iron Man finish line is awesome. Everyone has a story who does it, but like let's make people care beyond just the physical. ah We want them to care about this individual as a person.
00:57:42
Speaker
Yeah, and what the what really worked in your favor for this as well was the the tension of the clock ah throughout, especially for like the race itself. You know, you're early on the film, he's like in 90 Days to Lake Placid, so you know you're building to something. There's all an internal clock in that sense, but then in the race itself, and and when you start when you start planning, like, there's a cutoff for this, suddenly you're like, okay, someone's gonna be running up against this cutoff, and are they gonna make it or not? and It's so hard to procure tension in nonfiction because you can't just make up the tension. It has to evolve organically, as we already said. And so you're able to use the the clock in this sense to really ratchet up the tension. and and And because we're so invested in them emotionally, you're like, oh, man, like are they going to make it? If they don't, how are they going to react? And it's like you're so bought in at that point that it's all the more heartbreaking when like they don't make it by a certain cutoff. Yeah.
00:58:39
Speaker
Yeah, and that's just one of those things where we kind of got lucky with with the the race and the venue and how the race mechanics work. um Yeah, you have 17 hours to finish the race. There's a couple of cutoffs in between there that you also have to make. And yeah, if things aren't working in your favor, um you don't make that cutoff and you don't continue. you You don't finish the race. And that's what they're all up against. you know That 17 hour mark, essentially, is what they were all trying to do. Um, come in under. And so that, that naturally just kind of was our tension. That was, that was, um, as much as they all had their own personal conflicts throughout the race. Like that was kind of the external antagonist, if you will.
00:59:21
Speaker
Yeah, and yeah what are some ah some, maybe some films that that you revisit a lot or really inspire you to as models and just ah just things that really, you're like, oh, I love this one. you know When I'm sitting down to make a film, i I watch this to kind of remind me how it's done and you know that kind of thing. Yeah, so I don't watch a lot, actually. um I should watch more. Every time I do watch a great documentary, I'm like, oh, this is amazing. I should do this more often. um There's a couple out there that come to mind. um Free Solo is such a great film. And I feel like. Yeah, you talk about tension. Yeah, for sure. um Yeah, I've mad respect um for that that project and those storytellers.
01:00:07
Speaker
what I think I really loved on Netflix, The Last Dance, if you've seen that. I did, yeah. I love i love that too. I tried for my prefontaine book that we talked about ah before to structure the book like The Last Dance where you had, where they seesawed between that upper storyline of that final season. ah to the backstories of previous seasons. But I was very inspired by that structure. I couldn't quite pull it off with this book. But ah but yeah, but likewise, I've watched it several times taking notes to be like, how are they how are they doing this so I can maybe steal that structure? Right. And I think what I loved about that is like, I feel like you got such a good sense for who the characters were. Like you really got to know their personalities. And like what I love is a good documentary that within like the first 30 seconds or the minute, you're like, oh, I care about this person. Like I like them as a person.
01:00:59
Speaker
And then me and then you're like, I'll sit through however many hours like see where this journey takes me. But I love that. And so, yeah, those are those are two to come to mind.
Inspiration and Creativity Tips
01:01:09
Speaker
Speaking of that, in terms of the character, you know, you want to almost be sold on them in the first 30 seconds. ah Like how much debate was there with you and your team about who was going to basically bat lead off ah for you for inches to miles? i think we all I think we all realized through the process that Lynn was kind of our main character. She was she was our our A storyline and then the other two were the B storyline. And not because they were any less, but just because of how the events unfolded throughout the film. And so... she she also also just I think think because of my questioning in the interview process, like i I really asked a bunch of questions that gave us responses that seemed to fit kind of the in the hook of the film, the the first 30, 60 seconds or whatever it is.
01:02:00
Speaker
And so it also just happened to work that like her dialogue worked for kind of that opening we are going for. And the other two, like their dialogue didn't fit as much, I think, because I just didn't ask as many questions that tried to prompt responses that would fit in that opening. So that was kind of the thought process. And that's how we ended up with, ah because ah you know, Lynn is the first first voice we hear in the film. And ah when it comes to interviewing and interview prep, you know what is the the nature of your your research and how would you characterize your your style of interviewing to evoke the best things on on film?
01:02:36
Speaker
What is my style? um I don't know, just have a conversation, um ask questions, um make sure I shut up. um shut Shutting up's a big one. I can't advocate for that enough. like Oftentimes, I just let silence do some work. Yeah, and ah as uncomfortable as that is that you can always edit that stuff out But it's like just let if you give them enough silence oftentimes They'll start to fill it and that's usually the best stuff hundred percent. Yeah, I couldn't agree more I think going into this, you know, we kind of knew all the beats we needed to hit so I had a list for each of the characters I had a list of
01:03:14
Speaker
here's a story beats we need to touch on. And so kind of the first step of the interview was, okay, let's go through the past 10 years of your life. Let's talk about it. Let's make sure we cover these interesting moments. Let's really get into like, how did these moments feel? um What did they look like? You know, kind of paint us a picture, like a lot of those types of questions. And then we started to talk more generally. We're like, OK, let's talk about your childhood. Let's talk about sports and athletics. Like, what does that mean to you growing up? um And we you know went through that kind of category. So I broke it up into a bunch of categories. And so we you know if you look at my prep documents, like it's all broken up into category, and then a bunch of questions off of that. My my my biggest, I love to just listen and see what they're saying, hear what they're saying.
01:03:59
Speaker
you know You can do all the prep, you can come up with all the greatest questions you can come up with, but I feel like at the end of the day, you just have to listen and see what they say and and and pull on those threads as as they bring something up, because you never know where that takes you. um And so that's that's the biggest thing, I think, is I just try to um listen, be quiet, and just let them let them tell the story. Yeah, and I think it's all the more complicated, you know, for you and your tool set, because you might only have one big sit down. You know, for me, it's like if im like I forgot to ask that question, I usually just call someone up they like, I forgot to ask you this, or can I follow up but with you? If you were to do such a thing, it's like, got to bring the crew down, i got to set everything up and set everyone down, mic everybody up. And it's this whole production. So you need to fly around the country.
01:04:49
Speaker
Yeah, so you've got to be like really on your shit when you have them for a sit-down I imagine uh There's a lot of pressure involved there to make sure you get everything at least You know the main beats down because if you don't it's like you can't really get it again in the way that you Initially wanted yeah, I mean it is the backbone of of the film um Yeah, yeah, so I Yeah, um I don't know, prepare well. Yeah, no no substitute for that. I mean, and if you have the budget, if you have the time, like if you can do pickup interviews, great. um though I mean, I've certainly used those when the subject is closer and we don't have to travel halfway around the country to to go see them. um But that's not always an option. So you just got to really.
01:05:37
Speaker
really plan it out. Very nice. Well, col as I bring these conversations down for a landing, I always love asking the guests for a recommendation of some kind. It's just like anything you're excited about ah to share with the listeners. So you know what might you recommend for them? ah you know Be it a you know a brand of coffee or a yeah a cool yeah yeah a cool pair of socks that you're excited about? Ooh. um Let me give that some thought. I feel like your day is so much better if you go to work, if you can go to work, like wearing a pair of sandals. I'm wearing a pair of flip flops right now. And every day that I get to wear flip flops rather than like put on and a real shoe, um I just feel like my day is way better. And so I don't know if there's like something about you know the fresh air hitting your feet that inspires creativity or what. But if you can, and wear sandals more often.
01:06:30
Speaker
I like that. I like the kind of the the freedom of ah a near barefoot ah tactile feel of the ground. I like that. A lot of people know shade on them. They always recommend books even though I say it doesn't have to be a book. And so I like this idea that. ah there they it sand Sandals and a little freedom of the toes. I like that Cole. If you want a book recommendation, I don't know, your audience probably really hates what I'm about to say, but I love a good Clive Kustler book. okay i'm ah I've just finished one this morning. And yeah, sometimes I just want to, you know, read about some ridiculous fiction story. Well, that's great. You know, yeah be it ah short stories or suspense or thrillers like yeah they're so they're so valuable to read even in nonfiction because you're like, OK, like what are the who are the people I can follow or what are the questions I can ask of the people that might create the same degree of tension and scene setting and dialogue. ah So you can always there's so much to learn from fiction that translates over to nonfiction without a doubt. Yeah. Yeah. 100 percent.
01:07:37
Speaker
Awesome. Well, Cole, this was so great. idea the The film's incredible. I'm so glad we got to talk some shop about the mechanics, about how you went about ah making the film, and talking about some of the guts of it. So i yeah just thanks for coming on the show and making the time.
Embracing Criticism and Authenticity
01:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate it, and appreciate that you've got a platform dedicated to talking about this stuff.
01:08:01
Speaker
Oh, I got the yawn up. I finally got the yawn up. ah Oh, man. That was, what a journey. This was cool. Yes. Thanks to Cole and thanks to you for listening. Remember, you can download and subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts and consider sharing it and or adding the Rage Against the Algorithm newsletter to your newsstand at pandinomare.com. Hey. Been doing the newsletter for a long time. Almost as long as the podcast. Or maybe about as long. I think I started newslettering and podcasting in 2012, 2013. So, there you go.
01:08:43
Speaker
All right, so about that three-star written review, here's what I love, love, love about it. It illustrates you know that I, for one, am on the right path because you can't appeal to everybody. If you're appealing to everybody, you're more than likely a very vanilla personality and something that maybe AI could churn out. you know I wholly disagree with this anonymous reviewer's take. you know Sure, I cuss and I talk like a bro at times, but there's also that's also just me signaling that I'm not a pretentious academic dickwad. I hate those people in literature. ah i'm I'm not seeking tenure.
01:09:23
Speaker
and I hate how people in that kind of academic circles, I hate how sometimes, ah I don't know, I have felt talked down to. and That's just something I've dealt with and I don't I don't like it and I like to signal that I'm not that I can be in the literature circles and not sound like a Jerk or like that that other guy in Finding Forrester You know if you've seen the movie And when you can ruffle a few feathers or cut against expectations That's a good thing
01:09:58
Speaker
If people don't like you you, you can say, that's great, I'm not for you, and that's okay. I can recommend other podcasts, or books, or writers. You get it. Not everyone who samples you is gonna like you. yeah it That's hard. As soft people, we tend to internalize criticism, especially when we're largely incapable of defending ourselves against those critics. This is also why you should never read your reviews ever. But I like to read the podcast ones because I believe it encourages more. More reviews helps validate the enterprise. And some unflattering ones signals that the show might not be for everyone. And I'm off-putting to some.
01:10:38
Speaker
But others kind of dig my POV when it comes to this shit, and that's cool. You know, if people like us do things like this, as Seth Godin would say. On the rare times I've ever been asked for advice, you know, one thing I always say is to double down on your weirdness. Whatever makes you weird, that is the thing you gotta double down on. Interviews are a dime a dozen podcast interviews are a dime a dozen eventually people people come back to your show Well, yeah for the guests sure, but they also come to see how the the central person there being the host you know metabolizes the material and conducts a conversation based on their taste
01:11:25
Speaker
yeah We already have a fill in the blank, whoever your favorite podcasters are. yeah What we need is, like let's just say you having conversations filtered through your taste and your respect for the guests and your audience. I'll admit though, when I read that review, it deeply upset me for a few days. you I respected it from the moment I read it, but clearly he, and trust me, only he's, say D-Bag, is new to the party, probably as a result of long form um packing up their mics and going home. Him being a new listener, that's probably why it came as a shock.
01:12:04
Speaker
yeah You can always fast-forward through the intros, and I'm sure many people do. um Yeah, I make a point of editing myself down in post, in the conversations especially, and put these parting shots at the end of the show so they don't trespass on the guest and your experience with them, and the wisdom and insights that they can impart on your journey. So, this little parting shot is your is your goodie bag. Take it or leave it. Many leave it. So stay wild, CNFers. And if you can't do, interview. See ya!