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Deeper Reflections

S1 E14 ยท PRIME SPACE
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17 Plays1 year ago

Parallel to the development of the coaching profession, another similar practice has emerged, starting in addiction treatment but now widely practiced to support clients in generating lifestyle change. Motivational interviewing (MI) is grounded in concepts similar to coaching. However, there are some distinct ways of approach, especially when it comes to the skill of reflection. What can we learn from all the clinical trials and research done in MI to support us in going deeper into our coaching skills and approach?

Join Elias in this conversation with guest Joe Simmons, PCC.

#motivationalInteviewing #MI #coaching #coachingskills #reflections #awareness #coachtraining #ICF

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Transcript

Introduction of the Prime Space Podcast

00:00:03
Speaker
Welcome to Prime Space, a Prime Coaching Academy podcast with your host, Elias Scultori.
00:00:14
Speaker
So my friends, I'm so excited here today because for the first time at Prime Space, we have a guest that is besides Amy and I, right?

Meet Joe: Coach and Singer

00:00:27
Speaker
Amy and I are always sharing some of our thoughts here, but I have a guest and this guest is a dear friend of mine and a fabulous coach.
00:00:36
Speaker
And I think that he has so much to offer us here.
00:00:40
Speaker
Unfortunately, we just have like these 10, 15 minutes.
00:00:42
Speaker
Joe, hello, Joe.
00:00:44
Speaker
Hello, Elias.
00:00:45
Speaker
Great to be with you.
00:00:47
Speaker
Oh, my gosh.
00:00:48
Speaker
I'm thrilled that you are going to be sharing your wisdom and experience here with us.
00:00:53
Speaker
For those of you who are listening, Joe is a PCC coach, a professional certified coach with the ICF.
00:00:59
Speaker
He's also a training consultant.
00:01:02
Speaker
But what is unique about Joe that I really want to bring here is that Joe is a motivational interviewing coach.
00:01:09
Speaker
practitioner.
00:01:10
Speaker
Joe is a member of the Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers, Mint.
00:01:16
Speaker
And Mint is the professional organization that
00:01:20
Speaker
of motivational interviewing trainers.
00:01:22
Speaker
It's kind of the ICF of motivational interviewing.
00:01:27
Speaker
It's the clearinghouse with the latest motivational interviewing research and practice.
00:01:34
Speaker
Primarily, Joe coaches clinicians in the healthcare industry and human services professionals using motivational interviewing to support them in fostering more collaborative relationships with their patients and clients.
00:01:48
Speaker
A fun fact about Joe is that Joe is also a professional singer and a pastoral musician.
00:01:56
Speaker
You can actually see Joe weekly on TV.
00:02:00
Speaker
He is always singing at the Sunday Mass.
00:02:03
Speaker
You can find out where to see him on thesundaymass.org.
00:02:07
Speaker
So always wonderful to hear Joe sing as well.
00:02:11
Speaker
He has a fabulous voice.
00:02:12
Speaker
And I've had the privilege of accompanying Joe many times.
00:02:16
Speaker
Hello, Joe.
00:02:18
Speaker
Hello again, Aliyah.
00:02:20
Speaker
And thank you for that beautiful introduction.
00:02:25
Speaker
I really appreciate that.
00:02:27
Speaker
But today, Joe, we are not going to talk about music.
00:02:29
Speaker
Maybe another time we'll talk about music.

What is Motivational Interviewing?

00:02:32
Speaker
Today, we are going to talk about motivational interviewing.
00:02:35
Speaker
So, Joe, enlighten us here.
00:02:38
Speaker
What is motivational interviewing?
00:02:40
Speaker
All right.
00:02:40
Speaker
Well, this, you know, it's as, as you know, motivational interviewing is one of my favorite topics.
00:02:47
Speaker
Um, motivational interviewing is a client centered, um, communication style, uh, that strengthens a person's, uh, own motivation for change.
00:03:10
Speaker
in an atmosphere of acceptance and compassion.
00:03:17
Speaker
So it's really about drawing out that person's own motivation for change rather than putting it in.
00:03:24
Speaker
Ooh, I love that.
00:03:27
Speaker
I love that description.
00:03:28
Speaker
Thank you so much.
00:03:29
Speaker
And...
00:03:30
Speaker
We can already see, based on that description that you gave, how connected motivation interviewing is to coaching and how much we can perhaps learn from these practices.
00:03:44
Speaker
And that's why I brought you here to talk about this.
00:03:48
Speaker
I just recently did a motivational interviewing course and I was delighted to see so much of the technique and the learning and the research, the extensive research that has been happening in motivational interviewing and how can we coaches
00:04:06
Speaker
benefit from that

Origins and Development of Motivational Interviewing

00:04:08
Speaker
practice.
00:04:08
Speaker
But Joe, can you share with us here a little bit more like what is the history of motivation interviewing?
00:04:16
Speaker
How did this get started?
00:04:19
Speaker
Yeah, well, it started in the addiction community because traditionally addiction recovery is
00:04:30
Speaker
The approach was one of it was very directive and sometimes even coercive.
00:04:40
Speaker
And so that did not it was not so effective.
00:04:45
Speaker
So, you know, someone with an addiction would be kind of told what they needed to do to change.
00:04:56
Speaker
And it just
00:04:58
Speaker
you know, didn't have great outcomes.
00:05:00
Speaker
And so along came William Miller,
00:05:03
Speaker
who's a clinical psychologist, and he brought what we would describe, what you and I would describe as a coaching approach to those interactions and used empathic listening and compassion, accepting people as they are and recognizing their autonomy.
00:05:32
Speaker
And so and their choice in whether or not to change.
00:05:36
Speaker
And so by.
00:05:39
Speaker
By fostering that atmosphere, the results were much more positive, much more successful.
00:05:48
Speaker
And and so over the last 40 years or so, it's now expanded into the mental health field and expanded from there into coaching, education, criminal justice system.
00:06:07
Speaker
You know, like law enforcement, definitely social work, but also leadership and organizations.
00:06:16
Speaker
So there are a vast number of individuals and practitioners who who use motivational interviewing as as as part of what they do.
00:06:27
Speaker
So it remains the same.
00:06:30
Speaker
Virtually the same, you know, despite how someone is applying it, but it becomes an overlay to what what they're doing, whether that's a clinical practice or or coaching practice or or or whatever.

Coaching and Motivational Interviewing: A Shared Philosophy

00:06:47
Speaker
Yeah, it's fascinating to me to see that motivational interviewing has about the same age as coaching and to see these two very similar practices like at the core, right?
00:07:03
Speaker
The resourcefulness of the client, giving the client the choice to make their change, believing in the client's potential.
00:07:12
Speaker
This aspect, both of them are grounded in how these two practices developed parallel and came to be about the same time.
00:07:21
Speaker
It just fascinates me.
00:07:23
Speaker
Yeah, no, that is so interesting.
00:07:26
Speaker
I agree.
00:07:27
Speaker
I agree.
00:07:29
Speaker
What is unique about motivation interfering?

Unique Techniques in Motivational Interviewing

00:07:33
Speaker
So some of the things that are unique about MI is that...
00:07:43
Speaker
Well, one of the main things is that the primary driver of a conversation
00:07:51
Speaker
is reflections or our reflections.
00:07:55
Speaker
And in MI, this is different from how we define reflections in coaching, because in coaching, we tend to think of reflections as kind of paraphrasing back to the client what we heard and then asking for reflections
00:08:22
Speaker
asking them to confirm whether we got that right.
00:08:27
Speaker
In motivational interviewing, we use reflections more strategically, and we make the distinction between
00:08:37
Speaker
simple reflections and complex reflections.
00:08:40
Speaker
And so we can think of simple reflections as stabilizing reflections.
00:08:44
Speaker
Or anybody who remembers the old Dragnet detective series might remember Detective Joe Friday who would say in questioning witnesses, he would say, just the facts, ma'am.
00:08:58
Speaker
And so it's just the facts where you stay with what the client said.
00:09:03
Speaker
But
00:09:07
Speaker
It has its place, but the conversation kind of stays where it is.
00:09:14
Speaker
And if that's all you're doing, the conversation is not really going to move forward.
00:09:18
Speaker
Yeah, I always say that simple reflections for me almost like stops the timeline of coaching.
00:09:25
Speaker
We simply repeat what the client is saying, so therefore there is no movement forward.
00:09:31
Speaker
It stops in time.
00:09:34
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:09:36
Speaker
Complex reflections, on the other hand, are going deeper.
00:09:43
Speaker
And we're making a guess at what the client means.
00:09:49
Speaker
So we might name an emotion that they didn't necessarily say themselves, but we're picking it up from their energy or their nonverbal communication or they're implying it in something that we said.
00:10:07
Speaker
So we're helping them to kind of finish the paragraph or continue the paragraph.
00:10:15
Speaker
And so we might reframe, we might use a double-sided reflection where we are reflecting both sides of their ambivalence.
00:10:26
Speaker
And so we use these in a strategic way.
00:10:32
Speaker
It's in a very attentive way.
00:10:34
Speaker
And we, with a lot of practice,
00:10:41
Speaker
What we try to do is really get to where we are using more reflections than questions.
00:10:52
Speaker
And this is what was fascinating to me once you were the one who introduced the whole aspect of motivational interviewing to me.
00:10:59
Speaker
I didn't know anything about motivational interviewing.
00:11:02
Speaker
And when and I remember that I was so resistant to I don't know if you remember this, but I was so resistant to reflection.
00:11:10
Speaker
I was like, no, we need to ask a question.
00:11:12
Speaker
Reflection stops the time because of this idea that simple reflection really is so mundane.
00:11:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:23
Speaker
It just it they're not so effective.
00:11:27
Speaker
Yep.
00:11:27
Speaker
And a complex reflection, which is something that I was never conscious of it.
00:11:32
Speaker
But the more I am conscious of complex reflection, we use complex reflection in coaching all the time.
00:11:40
Speaker
However, we are not specifically taught what that is about and the strategy around complex reflection and how to use it intentionally.
00:11:54
Speaker
When complex reflection happens in coaching, it's almost like, by the way, it happened, and we are not even aware that we are using complex reflection.
00:12:04
Speaker
So one of the things that I am so excited about, of course, is that...
00:12:09
Speaker
At Prime Coaching Academy, in our Level 2 program, we have a module that is specific about reflection.
00:12:16
Speaker
And we are training our coaches in the distinction between a simple reflection that usually it's just about, you know, showing active listening and complex reflection that is a tool for evoking awareness.

How Does Motivational Interviewing Work?

00:12:32
Speaker
Yes.
00:12:33
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:12:35
Speaker
Complex reflections evoke awareness because they're you're you're you're offering the clients something that's much richer than than simply repeating back what what you heard them say.
00:12:50
Speaker
And Joe, you said something before when we were preparing for this podcast about how, where simple questioning and reflections happen in the brain.
00:13:01
Speaker
I would love for you to share that point.
00:13:03
Speaker
Yeah, so it's so, so interesting because, you know, not that I'm a neurologist, but one thing that we know is that questions activate the prefrontal cortex in the brain.
00:13:21
Speaker
And that regulates, you know, thoughts and actions and emotions, but which, you know, sounds like it's,
00:13:32
Speaker
Has its place.
00:13:33
Speaker
Yeah, it has its place and is useful.
00:13:35
Speaker
But the limbic system is what is activated by reflections.
00:13:42
Speaker
And the limbic system is related to behavior, motivation, and long-term memory.
00:13:54
Speaker
And so...
00:13:55
Speaker
So when we are activating the limbic system, there's more of a kind of staying power and especially that motivational piece where the client is able to reflect on what is going to motivate them to make this behavior change.
00:14:14
Speaker
It sounds to me more transformational.
00:14:16
Speaker
Yes.
00:14:18
Speaker
I so appreciate that.
00:14:20
Speaker
Well, Joe...
00:14:23
Speaker
I'm sure that you're going to be back and you're going to share more because this is a fascinating

Integrating Motivational Interviewing into Coaching

00:14:30
Speaker
concept.
00:14:31
Speaker
And I'm fascinated by the intersection of coaching and motivational interviewing and how much we as coaches, not only in our practices, I hope that we as a profession,
00:14:42
Speaker
can learn from motivational interviewing techniques and motivational interviewing concepts, especially how deep research has been done around these techniques and the approach of motivational interviewing.
00:14:56
Speaker
I hope that we can, as a community, learn more and more about motivational interviewing and incorporate even in our core competencies, because there is so much beauty over there.
00:15:05
Speaker
So we would definitely

Resources for Learning Motivational Interviewing

00:15:07
Speaker
bring you back here.
00:15:07
Speaker
But Joe, for now, if people are interested in motivational interviewing, where should they go?
00:15:14
Speaker
OK, so three things come to mind.
00:15:17
Speaker
Motivationalinterviewing.org, which is motivational.
00:15:22
Speaker
our website of the Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers.
00:15:25
Speaker
And that has information on the 2000 or more clinical trials that have been done in MI.
00:15:36
Speaker
And it's got some videos and links to all kinds of things.
00:15:41
Speaker
So that's a great place to start.
00:15:44
Speaker
If anyone is interested in books on the subject,
00:15:49
Speaker
One of the main there are several of them, but but one publisher that they might want to explore is Guilford Press, G-U-I-L-F-O-R-D press dot com.
00:16:04
Speaker
And that has some of the main text text of of MI.
00:16:08
Speaker
And there's one on MI and coaching in health care that's coming out this fall.
00:16:14
Speaker
And they can also contact me through my website.
00:16:17
Speaker
joesimmonscoaching.com.
00:16:22
Speaker
Or if they want to send me an email, I'm at joesimmonscoaching at gmail.com.
00:16:30
Speaker
Easy, easy to find you.
00:16:32
Speaker
And I'm happy to engage with anyone who wants to contact me to sort of help them navigate that world.
00:16:40
Speaker
Yes.

Conclusion and Gratitude

00:16:41
Speaker
And of course, you can learn more about motivational interviewing, especially the skill of reflection in our Prime Coaching Academy Level 2 program.
00:16:52
Speaker
And Joe, thank you so much for the collaboration.
00:16:55
Speaker
Thank you so much for teaching me about motivational interviewing and really bringing this new perspective, new perspective.
00:17:05
Speaker
a three-day vision of motivational interviewing and how this can apply to coaching.
00:17:10
Speaker
I really appreciate that.
00:17:11
Speaker
Well, thank you for inviting me, Elias.
00:17:13
Speaker
It's great to be here.
00:17:15
Speaker
And thank you for your openness to kind of making yourself more aware about MI.
00:17:25
Speaker
always something new to learn, right?
00:17:27
Speaker
Everyone, thank you so much for listening.
00:17:30
Speaker
And thank you for reviewing the podcast and giving us a five star and sharing this to others.
00:17:38
Speaker
I really appreciate your listening and being here with us.
00:17:43
Speaker
Let us know your thoughts.
00:17:44
Speaker
It's always wonderful to hear from you.
00:17:46
Speaker
Otherwise, everybody, I will see you next time.
00:17:49
Speaker
Take care.